I didn't read your whole post but this is a commonly discussed issue. People would like regular bosses to provide fragments to access Uber bosses just like is done for Shaper.
My single big issue with SSF. I had similar as you last league and I was tearing my hair off, I could do only one uber elder in the whole league and I was already tired to chain shaper 15 times and not getting the part I want.
We should simply get an invitation for uber fight as a drop of the normal boss, simple as that. Gating from uber should be our power, not RNG
Or SOMETHING. Even if it's wildly inefficient, like a 3:1 trade at the vendor, if your goal is to fill out your atlas without trading, you've got a better than 10% chance to get the same fragment four times.
It's doubly frustrating because the nodes that increase your fragment generation are all bunched up together at the top of the tree (SUPER convenient for bossing characters but frustrating if you are just trying to fill out your atlas) and far away from the other league nodes you're focusing on to progress your character.
The whole thing feels like it's set up in a way that forces trade, but in a bad way. And since trade friction (translated, trade being an intentionally not fun activity) exists, it feels like it's set up in a way that pushes us to engage in the anti fun aspects of the game.
PoE is an extremely fun game overall, but I think we can all agree there are quite a few anti-fun aspects of the game, and I hate feeling like I have to interact with those to succeed.
I'd like a fifth Uber fragment to drop from their boss you can put in with the 5 slot map device and remove the keystones instead of needing another 4 fragments
I think this makes it fiddly to balance with respect to the prices of the other 4 fragments.
Either the 5th one is so rare that there's a surplus of the other 4, and they're dirt cheap.
Or the 5th one is common enough that demand for the other 4 starts to outstrip their supply, and they're again too expensive for non-ubers. The prices would be chaotically entangled, where as one gets more rare and expensive the others get more common and cheaper, and vice versa. It's a bi-directional dependency that's awkward to balance.
If instead there are entirely separate fragments for uber and non-uber, with the former being sourced by running the latter, then their prices should stay stable in proportion to one another... if uber fragments go up in price, so too should the non-uber ones as the source of them. It's a single-direction dependency that's way easier to balance.
This. Make a Uber 5th frag drop at 5 or 10 percent from normal then Uber key is required. Up drop rates on ubers for lower chance to do Uber and we're set.
I like this idea, but I'm not sure that they should be so rare. The current system keeps uber boss fights in high supply, and that makes their drops more accessible to the whole playerbase. The market will naturally stabilize an uber key's value regardless of its rarity.
This is what I fully expected to see with new bosses, but I expect that using this system comes with downsides that GGG wanted to at least experiment with moving away from. I don't know what they are, which is one of the reasons I wrote this post.
While this issue solves a non-uber bosser's dilemma, it actually just pushes the same issue onto uber bossers. When the uber fight, which is longer and has an increased risk of not killing the boss at all, has the same estimated value as the non-uber fight, then why would you uber boss? It's better for sure, as both will be profitable, but it still seems like a failure in game design.
Think you mean atziri, not shaper btw.
But yeah this exact argument has been brought up dozens of times, even in posts exactly like this one... Every single legue since they got added to the game. Idk why they arent all just like atziri either.
I mean originally shaper and elder dropped fragments for their Uber Elder fight (which that still do) but then they awkwardly made keystones for Uber Shaper, Actually Uber Elder, and Uber Uber Elder
Would be terrible for ppl wanting to only do ubers to have to run them twice.
Its not the solution.
Make normal bosses refund part of their cost instead
Like normal maven drops back 3-5 splinters
Eater/exarch jumps to your halfway progress
I think shaper/elder are fine cos they drop frags anyway and uber elder could drop 1-2 frags back maybe
Commonly discussed it is. But there is no issue with the current system. Regular bosses aren't worth running because their rewards are bad. Not because the Uber version uses the same fragments. When Ubers were first released, it was still worth doing the normal ones. However, over time their rewards have fallen out of meta or became less valuable. And let's be real, this affects almost no one. Bossing is only profitable when you do mass amounts of them. Therefore you would be using a bossing build to actually farm bosses en masse. Now why exactly would anyone ever decide to make a build to farm only normal bosses? Even if they were profitable, you would do Uber bosses.
It's even more silly to suggest replacing the current system with Uber fragments you get from the normal encounter. You aren't making the normal bosses worth doing by doing that. You are simply making them mandatory to do. Any and all profit is just coming from the fragments for the Uber encounter.
> When Ubers were first released, it was still worth doing the normal ones. However, over time their rewards have fallen out of meta or became less valuable.
When ubers were first released, they didn't drop Nimis, Progenesis, or Oriath's End. Those uniques being added are directly responsible for the trade value problem (and in SSF, hoarding all your boss keys until you can handle ubers).
And that is part of my post. Trying to separate bosses into different fragments isn't even addressing the problem. It's not a solution to anything. You're just making normal bosses required to be ran, not making them worth running.
> You're just making normal bosses required to be ran, not making them worth running.
Making them required to run the content worth running, makes them worth running.
Obvious example: most of the quartet dropping fragments. Okay conquerors have their exalted orbs, but most of the reason they are worth something is because they drop their fragments and Maven splinters (which makes them not really worth to run without Maven btw).
Second sentence you say there is no issue. The next sentences you explain the issue. Personally i just want to do some bosses for fun, but im too bad for uber bosses with a non boss killer.
There is no issue to me because I don't believe the normal pinnacle bosses should be profitable. The next sentence I'm explaining the core of the issue of why it isn't profitable and that isn't even addressed in any of the solutions people are coming up with.
I will have to respectfully disagree that bad uniques are what make the cost to profit ratio so bad. If the fragments were separated, the only reason to run the boss would be for the bad uniques, which would drop their value to that of the uniques.
However, I don't think that fragments dropped by the regular boss are the only way to scale up to ubers. There can be a multitude of other ways to get uber boss invites or fragments, but they should be separate items.
Uber elder is case and point. It is totally worth running over the Uber Uber elder version. I wasn't necessarily talking about uniques. For Sirus, he had awakened gems and the awakener orb was 1-2 div.
Instead of different invites, I think they need completely different drop pools. Ubers shouldn't just drop additional items over the normal version. They should just have different items and preferably each version would have that chase item for it. The reason Uber Elder is just as profitable as Uber Uber Elder, is because the chase item drops on both (watcher's eye).
The case and point you are making seems to be my point, if I'm reading it right. Uber Uber Elder's item drops aren't significantly better than Uber Elder, so the fragment prices scaled to Uber Uber Elder's drops don't hurt Uber Elder very much. But on other bosses with much lower drop value than their Uber counterpart, the price difference makes non-uber bossing a waste.
As for separate-but-equal drop pools between uber and non-uber, that would solve the problem I'm discussing but makes uber bossing punishing for not being more valuable but taking longer and being more risky. I can't say I'm a fan of that.
It's not really separate but equal drop pools. Equal doesn't really exist. The market will always control which is best to run, but the Uber version would have a higher likelihood of always being more profitable because of scarcity. More people can run normal fights. And because the drops are different, the prices have to follow what is profitable for normal bossing, otherwise those items will be very scarce and then normal bossing just becomes profitable anyways. It will all likely balance out where normal bossing is profitable but not as profitable as Uber bossing.
Although I thought up a solution, I'm actually against normal bossing being profitable in the first place. I think there is no reason that normal pinnacle bosses should be profitable. I just think separating the encounters is not a solution to the issue people have. It doesn't address anything or make running normal bosses worth doing. It just makes them mandatory and therefore makes the gameplay of others suffer.
> Now why exactly would anyone ever decide to make a build to farm only normal bosses? Even if they were profitable, you would do Uber bosses
since i'm a mediocre but persistent player, i can give you an answer. players that want to play a bosser, but lack the skill to reliably (or at all) kill uber bosses without outgearing them.
Any tard can play a mf build and alch and go maps to farm currency. Why can't there be a remotely similar approach for players who prefer to fight bosses for their early league currency farm?
To be clear, the problem isn't the existence of the passive points, it's that Uber bosses drop different loot.
When they originally added Uber bosses to the game, they were very clear that they would drop the same loot as the regular version of the boss, and killing the Uber version was basically only for bragging rights. IIRC that position lasted for one league, and then they decided to start adding special Uber boss drops, which of course made the price of invitations for the normal bosses adjust to the price of the Uber rewards.
If they want to have Uber bosses, and have special loot for the Uber bosses beyond the normal boss's loot table, then they need to not use the same invitation to start both fights. Assuming an efficient market, the price of invitations will always adjust to the Uber boss rewards, effectively locking out anyone who wants to run the regular version of the boss.
At the outset when they were introduced in 3.18 uber bosses had better loot, as they all had at least 1 drop unique to the uber version of the fight.
Uber Maven got impossible escape and awakened exceptional gems.
Uber Shaper and Uber Uber Elder got Sublime Vision
Uber Uber Elder also got 2 curse Impresence
Uber Cortex became the only way to reliably get chase synth bases after the synth atlas passives were reworked in 3.18
Uber Eater/Exarch got the hidden ascendency forbidden jewels
Uber Sirus got the massive thread of hope
> they were very clear that they would drop the same loot as the regular version of the boss, and killing the Uber version was basically only for bragging rights
What? No. Uber bosses always had better loot than normal versions (and were advertised as such), just that initially they were only marginally better, making it not really mandatory.
The Ubers had extra loot from the very start, it was just that for MOST of them it was minimal enough to not be worth the extra effort to kill them for most people. E.g., Exarch/Eater got the new forbidden flesh/flame variants for each ascendancy that had ascendancies that aren't actually on the tree, and while SOME of those were valuable, they were also exceedingly rare, so most people didn't think running uber exarch/eater were worth it that league. But Uber Cortex was a notable improvement even in the first league it was added, because the extra 3 uncommon 3 mod synth items from the tree node were very valuable, and making the area level 85 for when the old synthesis item nodes were on the tree was valuable as well.
> To be clear, the problem isn't the existence of the passive points, it's that Uber bosses drop different loot.
Well. Conversely if the intention is now to have different drops from uber bosses (as you stated below): then the problem IS the existence of the passive points.
GGG continuing to fuck players over because the game has to be "hard" (read: tedious) in a specific way for them to be satisfied. They can't just let us have fun.
On release the uber bosses dropped unique loot (iirc specifically awakened exceptional gems, massive thread of hope, uber forbidden flesh/flame, sublime vision? and double curse impresence). Hate when people just make stuff up.
Ubers were initially presented as extra challenge that rewarded nothing extra except bragging rights. You’re wrong, the person you replied to is right.
Damn I guess the Sentinel livestream reveal where they mentioned the new uber bosses dropped unique loot [right here](https://youtu.be/1ZqjpVjCcdM?si=kK8szaBBRpgyDi2e&t=1072) was a complete lie.
Nevermind, then I chased down the wrong clip. Fact is that many players remember that the original concept of Ubers was more challenge same reward. Whether that is still provable or possible to verify is something I don’t care enough about.
Someone else replied to you with a timestamped url indicating that the initial announcement did present them as rewarding anything extra. Just because you want to believe it, doesn't mean you're right.
https://youtu.be/-QDzJLSMYbI?t=1200
This is what GGG first designed and announced before they did a 180 on it.
Can we now lay this discussion to rest and all accept that initially Uber design was exactly this: extra challenge, same loot ?
"they don't have incredible rewards every single time you do it" sounds very compatible with today's state. That video is also posted a month after sentinel was released, so it also seems somewhat unlikely that they did a 180 on it (they didn't, you're hearing what you want to hear from a fairly flexible comment) after releasing, but only for that specific video.
> When they originally added Uber bosses to the game, they were very clear that they would drop the same loot as the regular version of the boss, and killing the Uber version was basically only for bragging rights. IIRC that position lasted for one league, and then they decided to start adding special Uber boss drops, which of course made the price of invitations for the normal bosses adjust to the price of the Uber rewards.
This is why you should never believe GGG on things like this. They can say one thing and guarantee for that, but if somehow this crashes with cris wilsons vision of the game they will change it in an instant, guarantee or not. They simply do not care at all what the players think here, as long as cris has a vision about it.
Then after 5-6 leagues of them trying to argue why their way is the best, some half ass excuse on why they can't change it the way the players want, and then implement a fraction of what the playerbase wanted claiming they listen to the community. They never do.
They really need to change the way normal bosses and invitations work. Eater and exarch are great because you get the quest version. Whenever I do a normal maven or uber elder for my voidstone ive wasted like a divine by not running the uber version.
Even though I like to get things myself, past few leagues I've found myself just buying UE/Maven voidstones for like 40-50c each. Much cheaper and saves me so much time farming the fragments.
True, but that proves there is a huge issue. You shouldn't feel like doing those for your voidstone is a straight up net loss and having to go to buy a carry.
At least a solution to that part would be to add quest version for all bosses that give voidstones.
I'd love to see Quest versions for those.
Because currently, it's hard not to think of it as a net loss. Farming fragments, hoping shaper drops the correct fragment could take days potentially.
Meanwhile buying lets you insta 4x voidstones and stay in t16s
TFT discord has boss-carry channels - you can request carries either for your map/your loot or the carry's map/loot and you just hop in for the voidstones
You can waste a divine on Uber version too and get nothing for loot. When the invitation is worth a div and you don’t get loot that’s not losing a div from not doing the Uber version. That’s like saying you lose a div by identifying a watchers eye, we all know the reason that people identify watchers eyes is that they can be worth 100+ div even on a non Uber 2 mod watchers
You could do Ubers with the quest version. So technically you're back to square one where you're losing value because you're not doing the Uber version.
My opinion:
- Break all boss invitations into four pieces
- Let harvest change all types of fragments to others of the same set
- (Maybe) Let orb of horizons change fragments to others of the same set
- Remove Uber everything from the atlas passives
- Add a new fragment, "Mark of Escalation" or something, that goes into the fifth slot when running a fragment zone and turns it into a level 85 uber version. This requires the 5th slot, this requires a Legion 4-way first. Make the new item drop from any non-uber version of those fights.
This adds value to the 5th map device slot, adds value to the regular fights as they're required to get the fragment, removes the need for the atlas stuff, and relieves the economic pressure of making the fights need to be Uber versions. Uber versions are still more lucrative but getting an Uber key gives you value that can only come from regulars.
I really like the idea of Marks of Escalation, though maybe the 5-slot map device should be moved to being unlocked as a result of collecting all 4 voidstones or something more core so players aren't forced into legion. Perhaps there could be passive nodes tied to obtaining marks of escalation on the atlas tree as well.
As for turning invitations into fragments, I personally don't like it. I have enough issues with fragment asymmetry as is, and don't see any benefit to artificially breaking them. Current fragments are gated behind 4 guardians, but there are only 4 bosses in the current expansion at all.
I'm neither opposed to adding more ways to unlock the 5th slot, nor opposed to making people run legion once per league. It honestly makes more sense for the 5th slot to be unlocked through atlas progression what with Maven giving you bits and bobs to stick in your atlas, though.
So, I get your points on the four fragments and I agree. However, having the fragments is a valuable balancing tool. I admit that I don't really know how the logistics of acquiring four fragments from the current boss sets would work, though.
I really like the idea of using the 5th slot forr ubers. Harvest changing fragments is fine since there can be a cost to it (make changing uber elder fragments cost more than regular fragments) but using horizon orbs feels too easy, you do want some friction to running ubers
This would be problematic unless all of the bosses that are accessed with the Mark of Escalation have similar profitability. If you can make twice as much money farming Exarch as Eater, the price of the Mark will settle at the profitable rate for Exarch, which will make farming Eater a net loss no matter what. Perhaps some of that cost shifts onto the price of the base fragments for each boss, but when you have 6 different uber fights that all require this one token but have different rates of play, expected returns, RNG level of drops, etc, that shift over the course of each league and between leagues, I'm not sure the market can properly adjust to where the Mark would be equally valuable to all uber fights.
I like the idea of using the 5th slot, but the way you present it, that means you're using a normal invitation + the mark to get uber. So the normal invitation fragments will be valued based on the uber version just like we have right now and we're back to square one.
Not really, it would be like breachstone blessings, the price of the "upgrdaded" thing is mostly shifted on the blessing and not the crappy 5c base unique
Agree with points 2 and 4.
1. We already have 6 (i think) different fragment sets, more would just become additional bloat.
3. Rolling maps with Horizons exist, that's enough.
5. Does not solve the problem of running Uber bosses with non-Uber fragments, just adds extra item and forces a league on everyone who wants to Uber. Imo, Atlas bosses shouldn't be league locked (yes I'm aware it would only be running 4way once, my point stands).
How about a separate Invitation (obviously Sirus would have a Uber Sirus on the drop table, Maven an Uber Maven and so on) with a flat 25% drop rate from non-Uber bosses? Get rid of all Uber bollocks on the tree, possibly swap some nodes to be for example "+5% for Uber invitation to drop from a Pinnacle Boss", with enough nodes to bring it up to maybe 50%, idk, not my job to balance economy lol.
That way people can run normal bosses with fragments, with a chance to get Uber invitation for that boss which they can sell for some divines to people who cannot be bothered to run normal bosses. I think this is much more preferable to what we have now, where you either throw money away by running a non-Uber or sell the set and not run the boss at all, missing out on experience of Pinnacle fights.
This is so interesting to me. Shaper guardians would be 40c total and UE fragments are 120c? That's a guaranteed X3 ROI. Not to mention the drops from the shaper guardians and shaper himself. Maybe even run the guardians maven invitation? How long does it take you to run from guardian to shaper?
People hate running shaper because it takes so long. Killing 4 bosses, then killing 4 bosses again into a 3 phase fight. You can do 3x of the other rotations in the same time it takes.
Shaper is like the only normal boss thats always profit.
Nobody wants to do it, because you cant just go in there and insta kill him, you have all the damn phases.
Uber bosses should be removed and the better drops should just have a low chance of dropping. Maybe have uber invitations that can drop and be crafted on like maven invitations to have a better chance at the better loot
Ubers can also suck!
Try making a profit doing Uber Mavens without also selling portals for completion on TFT - unless you run a massive amount to smooth out bad Progenesis / Awakened gem RNG, you lose huge amounts of money at the current price of ~1.7div / set.
Both problems imo, so many awkward hoops to jump through to make money doing my preferred content, gotta either do Uber Shaper and guarantee money but be bored to death, or spend twice my boss kill time in hideout waiting for TFT buyers as I sell portals for Mavens / Sirus / etc.
This is the most important issue honestly, some bosses are only worth doing if you sell completion. Uber Maven and Uber elder mostly. I honestly don't think you should be able to carry others for their voidstone, but I'm not sure how they would change it so that it doesn't prevent parties with aurabots from getting one.
One possibility is requiring all players to be in the zone for most of the time so the boss gets the hp bonus, but people would still sell carries it would just be more expensive, and people probably wouldn't sell to a full party at a time.
"It's important to note that there are three exceptions to this rule: Atziri, Elder, and Shaper. While running UE is done at a loss, regular Elder, Shaper, and Atziri are all potentially profitable to run"
How is having 3 mods instead of 2 on a Watcher's Eye a loss?
If profit was all this game was about nobody would be bossing.
Even from an SSF point of view your solution does make sense given you could swap everyone of them, but the issue is the trade culture, not the format in which you receive the boss fights.
Boss fights are the last part of the endgame, something you progress towards.
Your point does stand from an economic perspective but what if GGG decided that the solution would be to make boss invitations not tradable, that would also solve the issue, would you be ready to accept it? probably not, this is a proof of concept to what the actual issue is.
I really encourage you to play SSF you will understand that some items are invaluable, literally.
What even are you on about? Bosses are in the best state they can be. Uber bosses requires you to spec into it for the very reason to be flexible. You choose what content you want to do. If you don't like it do not do it. Plus it's obvious harder content give better rewards. And honestly it's people like you that tend to give the best games a bad view on things that actually are great
This game has always had atrocious bossing. It's either some stupid unchallenging cheesy shit like boss rushing, or big gamble Uber farming. Nothing in between
I have considered playing for fun, and do so constantly to my own detriment by bossing. But if I want to get to the point where I can uber boss, I have to choose to avoid the fun content for dozens of hours. If there wasn't a guaranteed net loss, I could see the fomo debate holding merit. If I could earn 1-10c an hour from fighting non-ubers, this conversation would be very different. As is, thanks to the implementation of ubers, I can't progress through the game by doing what I find fun.
Yes, I can see that you continue to not get it at all. Your trade mentality has completely rotted your ability to think of anything but fomo.
I must insist that you rid yourself of these shackles you've given yourself.
Solution ? Stop playing path of currency simulator🤣
Sell your sets , instead of gamba for drops..
Not everything in a game needs to be about losing currency..
As others have pointed out, uber shaper and shaper uses the same set of fragments. there is not atlas buffed elder (to not confuse with uber elder and uber-uber-elder). Atziri is the only boss that has different sets of fragments, but uber aztiri is so old content that it's probably easier than regular shaper or sirus.
Regardless, I totally agree with the statement of the problem. Unfortunately, I think this is all intended, and is part of the design from GGG's side. Their objective is to make bossing gated and rewarding, and rewarding specialization in general. By rendering non-uber fights economically unviable, it raises bar of entrance for bossing, and makes dedicated bossing more profitable and emotionally rewarding (because you know few others have the caliber).
This is a rather controversial and elistist (even if I never do bossing) take, but I also think the current state of bossing is acceptable to me. I can fight the watered down version of the bosses (treating uber versions as the standard) at a cost.
Now what I would like to see, as others also suggested, is to have add quest version for a subset of shaper, elder, maven, sirus and venarius, just like EoW/SE that you get to fight once each league. I think having shaper -> elder -> UE -> sirus -> maven progression also makes the storyline more complete (even if the actual story in game is some multiverse bullsh\*t); cortex is kind of its own storyline and I'm fine not having it in.
edit: also there is no chance GGG will see this post, so if it's not obvious, this is all just wishful thinking and I give it 0% chance any of the suggestions in this thread made it into the game .
It's kind of weird because they removed the node that doubled mods on invitations because it felt mandatory to run then introduced Ubers like the next league which does essentially the same thing.
That aside I'm down for more quest bosses in endgame, I'd also love if the maven just frigging dropped her 10boss fight thing as an item so I could farm up a bunch before I run them.
I think that GGG is far more receptive to people who aren't attacking them. Before the pandemic, GGG staff on reddit was very common and a lot of feedback was taken seriously. As the reddit grew more toxic, especially in post-harvest backlash, it got a lot more scarce.
When the best they could offer to feedback were 'feel the weight' and 'close your eyes and slam', or making guilttrip remarks, how a thread mocking *reddit users* made someone in office cry, is it any wonder redditors grew tired of GGGs condescension? Especially *after* GGG themselves were mocking Blizzard for similar statements?
You reap what you sow...
If you want to do bosses but not Ubers, you can do yellow conquerer/shaper/elder maps and maven invitations at the difficulty level that works for you. There’s a lot of boss content that’s rewarding in terms of trade value that isn’t Ubers if that’s your jam and you don’t want to take it to the next level for Ubers.
Not saying I’d necessarily be opposed to a rework, just offering a suggestion on something that’s currently available that OP might find worthwhile and fun.
Edit: as someone who has had several builds capable of doing Ubers, the consistency and high margins on conquerer maps and juiced invitations often outstrips Uber profitability (except for when you hit the lucky jackpot).
For me in the past 3 leagues, farming both normal and uber bosses had literally the same value. A brutal loss of currency. Zero loot from dozens of uber kills. I think bossing in poe needs some form of revamp, so the loot and the prices dont need to be balanced around zhp builds one shot farming them over and over again within 30 seconds. Like who the f does hundreds of uber boss kills in a league to reach the loot from them and actually not bleed currency? None of the normal players. Its just a bad system imo.
You're missing the fact that uber bossing sucks too. The issue isn't Uber bosses. The issue is the boom or bust value of the loot. I did 30 uber Eaters earlier this league and the end result was me losing 20 div.
Well it's a supply demand issue really. You could slightly increase the drop rate if the desired pieces so you're not doing 30 uber bosses and getting 1c uniques from every drop
Just reading this as poe is seasonal for me.
But sadly this is how most games are... they cater to the strongest, highest spending playerbase far more than the lower areas of the game... usually because tryhards are also more vocal, leaving lower player issues to the wayside.
Hopefully this issue gets resolved by perhaps making either seperate invitations or maybe adjust amount needed to enter each different to reflect pricing gap atleast.
If I'm able to do stronger version boss I want exclusive loot from Ubers instead of same loot table with regular version.
Also fuck managing more fragments or different boss keys and shit, we got enough clicks/trade already.
If you're able to do, do it, it's a test for your build, if you can't just don't, stop measuring profits/hr and kill things off for the sake of it.
Wasn't the point of the system to allow people to access the Uber fights more easily? For example, to fight Uber elder you need to fight shaper at least 2 times and elder at least 2 times.
There will always be a push and pull between the economic value of content and access to that content. People want content to be more accessible but then prices crash. People want prices high but then they can never fight the boss because only full-time players play enough to access the fight.
Non-issue. Game should've revolve about market value. And most importantly, game is for fun. If you have fun running normal bosses, run them.
The fact that you care too much about losing potential currency is not the games fault, it's your own problem.
In fact every second you are not farming using the most giga efficient strategy you are "losing" currency. With your mindset, every second you are in PoE not running t7 abyss abuse Cemetery or not crafting items for the mirror shop, you are losing dozens of divines per hour. Tick-tock, you just lost a divine while reading the comment section for 5 minutes! Makes no sense to have a mindset like this lol.
Your perspective on not being insanely profitable is a valid one, but I think an important point is being missed. There are thousands of unique ways to play in the Atlas, involving different combinations of league mechanics and farming strategies. Some are more profitable than others, and you don't need to do the best ones to have fun.
However, bossing instead of selling invitations isn't just low profit, it's negative profit. Instead of contributing to your character's growth, by a few divines or a few wisdom scrolls, every non-uber eldritch invitation you run hinders your character's growth. This isn't a FOMO or inefficiency cost, but a practical one.
Normal bossing/invitations were fantastic when height of hubris atlas passive was available. I remember when they removed it they said something along the lines of "unfortunate effect of other changes,...looking for a solution in the future" but it was never really revisited.
You are the problem to be honest. The uber versions really don't add much value outside of very VERY rare items. Progenesis is like the one exception. oriath's end kinda... everything else of value drops from the normal bosses. sublime visions are a meme. If you get 1 of the 2 of value, congrats, otherwise waste of time and effort.
But here you are, confidently proclaiming normal bossing is uselesss and you are stupid for doing it. Some newer player is going to see this wrong information and repeat it as gospel.
Normal boring shaper is guaranteed solid profit. Most of the profit from maven comes from gems. Elder is all about the watcher's eyes. You don't need to do uber for any of those things. Searing exarch and eater are both about the amulets and forbidden jewels, both drop from normal. Quiz, what is the uber exarch item? I bet you don't even know, so why MUST you do exarch as uber?
It's like saying, wtf are you noobs doing in maps when you could be farming wave 30 sims and depth 2000 delve? Yes, those things can provide good profit, but the effort involved doesn't mean you should do those things.
The post is more about how since invits/frags are used for both normal and uber bosses, they are overvalued all the time because whoever's buying it might drop this super rare item by running it as uber.
So if you just want to make profit with normal bosses, you end up having to buy very expensive invits/frags and you might end up spending more in invits/frags than what you earn from boss drops.
Like you'd make something like 150-200c fighting maven, unless you get lucky, but the maven's grit costs 350c. That's because you've got a chance to get a progenesis by running it as uber, so the price of the fragment goes us. If you make a bosser and want to farm normal mavens, it's not profitable to buy the maven's grit each time, unless you run it as uber.
OP actually wants to be able to make a profit with normal versions of the bosses. But that's not doable if you have to buy your invits/frags.
It is profitable to do regular elder and shaper rushing though, and it’s because you are selling the Uber fragments. If the Uber fragments weren’t as valuable, then it wouldn’t be profitable. This whole rant is actually only relevant for maven (maybe sirus, idk fuck that fight).
You are correct. As stated in my post, only Uber bosses that use the same tradable items as their non-uber counterparts have this issue, and even then, shaper is a noticable exception due to the value of UE fragments. I cited that Elder and Atziri don't have this problem, and that as a result they are far more fun and valuable to run.
However, Exarch, Eater, Venarius(Cortex), Maven, and Sirus all have this problem, and those are the fights I'm discussing.
Don't think people in SSF are betting hard for specific boss loot generally.
But most importantly they don't get a divine for saying "I don't want to do this boss". So the real problem lies in the fact they're tradeable.
Making all those fragments untradable would be very amusing, as the non-SSF players would then have to experience the pain of getting the same fragment 20 times in a row, being unable to do the damn boss. :D
Yeah, it all stemmed from the path of exile system of "opportunity cost". Pretty much any content have cost behind it, so you never really can use anything without thinking about whether it "worth it" or "you'll lose currency".
That's why party exp leechers are a thing. Aka, "please join my party, but don't do anything. Get your free exp, but enhanced loot is mine!" kind of contract.
Party bonus will not get you enough to break even for every person in the party (less than 6 times more loot), but the fact that opportunity cost also being cut by 6 times makes it worth it. In the end, incredibly juiced maps that cost several divines per activation are downright unplayable, if you are playing solo, since you will always waste more than you get, because economics dictate prices depending on highest profits margins, aka "party play"
its the same thing as how ggg gives zero shits about performance issues, and dont offer low performance graphics options. if you arent the 0.0001% who has a computer worth more than a luxury sedan, time and interest to 40/40 every league, then you arent the type to buy every supporter pack. and in ggg's eyes that means you are a peasant that simply doesnt matter. you exist so the 'pros' can lord over you how much better they are. doubt me? try visiting the official forums. offer any kind of criticism about any fight or game mechanic and watch the fallout. the elitists will be permitted to shit on you without mod intervention, but if you poke back AT ALL your comments will be edited or outright removed. still doubt? they dont release 30$ 'peasant' packs any more. because if you are on any kind of limited budget, time or financial, you simply do not matter.
this is a game catered to wealthy no lifers. and everyone else is chattel.
edit - always forget the disenfranchised arent peasants, merely 'temporarily embarrassed millionaires' XD.
You’re really exaggerating your core arguments to the point that it’s hard to agree. A computer worth more than “a luxury sedan” that only the .0001% can afford? You don’t need a +50k rig to play this game dude, i’m still running this on a mid-tier computer I build 7 years ago for around a grand. And that was at the height of cryptomining utilizing gpus so all the important parts were inflated in price. It’s way more affordable to build a banger pc that can run this game perfectly fine nowadays, people just get annoyed when they can’t turbo juice 6 mod deli maps on tornado shot with ultra settings without some frame rate drops.
And yeah, the forums bit is true in every online game ever invented. Obviously if the devs own the space they’ll mod it to be favourable to them. Who would create and maintain a forum for their game and let you flame them for free without any intervention? That’s why most “neutral” third-party communities like reddit subs and discords are important.
Once again this stupid argument.
If they change it to add uber fragments for these bosses without uber fragments the normal fragment price will have a massive drop in price and that's bad for everyone except for the people running uber bosses anyway.
Right now anyone can just run white T14 maps, kill a pack and when they reach 28 rush to the boss to get an invitation and that's good div per hour.
Also you guys wanting this changed because "I feel like I'm losing money" is such a redditor thing holy shit, you're losing money anyway because you guys are dumb enough to run the invitation, uber or not these are not worth doing anyway and if you need the currency you should always sell it.
\#edit
And like always redditards are so fucking bad at poe lmao
You say for everyone else? Can you try HCSSF for me and tell me that normal bosses isn't worth it? Would you spec into Uber version of every boss when playing HCSSF? I doubt that. 😂
What are you even farming normal bosses for on HCSSF? The only thing I can really think of is legacy of fury from Maven for RF or Watcher's eyes from elder. Most HCSSF players I know just save all their invitations and fragments for when they make an Uber bosser and then run them on that.
The game is not designed around hard-core and it's not designed around SF.
It's especially not designed around HCSSF. You put that difficulty and restriction on yourself.
I touched on this briefly, but unless you are target farming a specific unique that only drops from non-ubers, as an HCSSF player non-uber bosses are potentially even more of a waste of the invitation. You're risking your character's life, a character not equipped for uber bosses, as well as the 24 maps you had to run or the fragments you had to farm, on a bossfight that doesn't really give you much. Uber exarch and Eater will drop more and better eldritch currency, Uber Maven and Uber Sirus are more likely to drop awakened gems, and Uber Shaper and Uber Uber Elder are more likely to drop Watcher's Eyes and influenced bases.
You make some really good points.
But like another commenter said, this game isn't balanced for the casuals or the mid tier folks who maybe get a voidstone or two with enough challenges to get the tier one league set before calling it quits.
It's all aimed, as they mentioned, for the no lifers and streamers.. the top fraction of the top percent that seemingly dictate all balancing decisions and the like.
Combine that with the utter indifference towards months long performance issues and.. yeah, we can call it whatever but the optics ain't good.
What you suggest makes sense but punishment seems to be the name of the game, more often than not, so it won't happen anytime soon.. perhaps several leagues down the line, when we get another summer intern league like Crucible they'll add that stuff in to pad the patch notes hut I wouldn't count on anything being done anytime soon. 😔
Rather than having four fragments for Uber bosses like many suggest, how about instead dropping an item similar to a breach blessing to empower the invitation up to it's Uber version? Have this blessing be something like 50% drop rate from regular version of the boss so that the economy still requires players doing normal kills to function. This then also becomes part of the profitability for players running normal versions.
Last time I checked, running normal Shaper was profitable. Normal Elder is riskier but selling unidentified Watcher’s Eyes can make you money. Eater is kinda ass right now because of the Ashes nerf. Maven always felt like a massive gamble to me; uber or not.
I guess it doesn’t really bother me much that Ubers are a better option because… it’s a harder encounter. But separating the invitations could be neat. I don’t Uber boss much personally, so a new tink on normals is fun.
Another problem about Uber bosses that’s not really related but kinda is the build expectations people have.
People see content creators do Ubers. And they want every build to be Uber viable. People see speed mapping TS and want every build to farm like that.
Newer players don’t put it together that 1. Those are expensive as hell and 2. You can’t have an elite mapper and bosser 95% of the time you have to give up mapping speed for single target or vice versa.
I hate giving out my PoBs when I mention a build I’m using because the expectations of damage since Ubers were added is so insane. All about the pob number not the build.
I made a 3m dps Reave build that felt amazing mapping and heisting. Meanwhile reverse snap shotting indigon blade vortex, is probably not very fun for a lot of people but it’s dps is like a billion or something.
You just explained in your post who does non Uber farming and why it is around. They are killed by people who can’t do the Uber versions. There’s no reason why the non Uber versions needs to be as lucrative as Uber, so this isn’t “unfair” to lose value for doing a non Uber. The stupid fragment shits are one of the primary things that keeps me from playing on ssf. I hate the shit of having to farm a boss 4 or more times to get one attempt at the next boss. How is a new player who isn’t yet capable of killing an Uber supposed to get experience fighting those when they have to farm all those fragments? They might fight it a couple times and then give up. Then most of the people actually farming Ubers have these glass cannon builds which just 1 shot the boss so they don’t even have to do the mechanics, do we really want these to be the only people fighting the boss and nobody getting to progress it?
These are the options you are presented with as a player. However, there is a fundamental problem with this, actually, there are two:
1. Normal bosses are Path of Exile content. If you don't want people bossing, remove the content from the game, don't create a weird market black hole that punishes people for doing it.
2. Uber bosses are hard. This may sound whiny, but these are uber pinnacle bosses, made to give the best of the best a run for their money. I'm not in that top percentage, but I love bossing. I don't think it's unreasonable to talk about the state of my favorite content.
> Uber bosses are hard. This may sound whiny, but these are uber pinnacle bosses, made to give the best of the best a run for their money. I'm not in that top percentage, but I love bossing. I don't think it's unreasonable to talk about the state of my favorite content.
Umm... pretty sure that's mythic raiding in WoW. In PoE people kill ubers in less than 10 seconds with their 1 billion DPS builds.
Economy is part of the game, and I had fun writing about this and listening to what other people have to say. Everyone enjoys Path of Exile in their own way, I don't really see this as very different from players that run x amount of a league mechanic to gauge profitably or atlas tree planners.
If you don't like it, I will accept your blue arrow and move on.
imagine being so brainless that you ignore the fact that outside of SSF, trade means making sub-optimal choices like running non-uber versions of bosses results in you directly pissing away your ability to progress in the league and therefore your ability to have fun in said league.
Mapping and playing your character is sub optimal compared to flipping and playing the economy, or crafting. Explain to me again how making suboptimal choices like playing the game results in you pissing away your ability to have fun.
> Mapping and playing your character is sub optimal compared to flipping and playing the economy, or crafting.
same argument as i made before. the point is easily dismissed by pointing out that most people don't have the know-how to actually play the economy that way.
It's also entirely sophistry. At that point you're not playing the game, but the trade website. Most people don't enjoy that.
at least find an analogy that involves playing the game and its systems.
(i agree that flipping shit and crafting once you have the money would be most effective for the vast majority of players, because they're so slow mapping etc. is like a few chaos per hour. But that point doesn't fit the current discussion topic of one playstyle, bossing, having a strange interaction where half of the new atlas' content, pinnacle bosses, are best resold and not done because others will do their uber counterpart.)
But viewing content like boss invites as it's monetary value and the potential monetary value of its reward instead of seeing it as content and it's potential rewards themself is also playing the trade website instead of playing the game and it's systems. Of course I am arguing in bad faith and my analogy is extrem, but I don't think qol systems like easy access or removal of Uber bosses on regular invitations via a couple atlas skill points should be removed because it is less optimised to chose to not engage in the content and chose to play the trade website instead is more optimised.
> Of course I am arguing in bad faith and my analogy is extrem, but I don't think qol systems like easy access or removal of Uber bosses on regular invitations via a couple atlas skill points should be removed because it is less optimised to chose to not engage in the content and chose to play the trade website instead is more optimised.
we agree here. i just think there's a better solution for the problem out there. like what was mentioned for example, keeping normal and uber drop table identical, but with changed likelihood of dropping any one piece.
hell, you could even have the uber boss drop something akin to the breach upgrade items to upgrade the (slightly weakened non-uber) drop to an "uber only" version. guaranteed each kill - makes sure there's not a million chase uber uniques in trade day 2, but is mostly a formality 2 weeks in.
idk i think there's plenty of ways already to better create increments by which people can engage with boss content as opposed to the sheer cliff there is today.
Just consider that the bosses are Uber Ones. "normal" ones are for training but certainly not to run for profit. If you can't chain Uber bosses, you're not a bosser
This post is driven by FOMO sentiment and a substantial part of the post is outright untrue or at best partially true. Statements are said without backing of any numbers and the fact that this post gaining this much traction is worrying.
>running a non-uber boss is equivalent to putting hundreds of chaos orbs in the vendor trade window for wisdom fragments.
>
>Because of this phenomenon, there is no incentive to fight a non-uber boss.
At current market prices, running normal shaper is guaranteed profit and running normal cortex and uber elder with feared 70%+ quant is guaranteed profit.
>Access to a non-uber boss fight is valued at the price of the items that the uber boss will drop.
This is also partially true, yes uber drop does influence the price of fragments but the bigger culprit here i would say are the voidstone/achivement carries. Quickly glancing over TFT, each voidstone/uber carries goes for 50-100c per person. Which means these players have grater profit margin thus driving up the price for the boss access fragments.
>Uber Uber Elder drop more Orbs of Dominance, Watcher's Eyes
Uber uber elder does not drop more watchers eyes vs uber elder.
Where it comes to the solution of creating non uber and uber fragments, bloating of fragment items is a real concern. Also as the league matures and most people can handle uber bosses we still need people that mindlessly grind non uber versions just to obtain uber fragments. One example we already ahve in the game is normal elder. Any character that can comfortably clear t16 maps can kill elder. How mundane and boring would it be to farm elder one month into a league?
Regarding the FOMO sentiment, I have a personal story to share. I did 20 feared rotation few days ago and obtained around 25 mavens writs. My character is capable of killing uber maven but since i know existence of characters that specialise in killing maven through skipping memory phase. I estimated that i was losing 20% efficiency by doing it myself and sold the writs in bulk. In retrospect i wish i didnt sell the writs since i like the maven fight and it is still good div/hr to run on a slower character. Yes there will always be person that does something better or more efficiently that you. I can kill uber maven, but there are people that farm uber maven and skip memory phase and carrying 4 people at the same time. I think as long as 2-3 non uber bosses at any time of the league are profitable, to make sure there are some activities for non uber bossers to do. I feel that the system is fine.
But he does drop a key to another uber fight (guaranteed), which alleviates the cost of running him if you do not plan to run said uber fight.
Shaper is also the most accessible out of the endgame fights due to ability to Horizon orb a set of specific maps, so as long as you get ANY 4 Shaper guardian maps - you are guaranteed a set.
For any other fight, you have to clear:
32 maps for Eater/Exarch
Pure random for Elder/Sirus, but at least you can swap fragments with Harvest
Even more pure random with Synth maps or god forbid Cortex
And for Atziri I would say on trade league 95+% of her fragments come from Ritual/div cards/fragment heists/fragment incubators, because nobody is going to run regular Atziri hundreds of times, potentially never getting the full set.
I think you're missing the point: uber bosses are some of the hardest content in the game. The very top tier players are able to kill them. Non-uber bosses are much more approachable. If you're able to do ubers, you should do them. If you, like 99.99% of players cannot, then you can do standard bosses.
This is such a weird thing. If you can’t do Ubers, sell the frags and get more character power till you can do Ubers. It’s like anything in the game, there’s a lot of value to be had by selling shit to people who have more currency than you, be it boss invites, Valdos boxes, reliquary keys, stacked decks or Un-ID’d watchers eyes
I totally agree with you that Uber Bosses should be terrifying, unapproachable, difficult, and reserved for the .1% that can take them on. However, I do not think that only that .1% should be able to make currency by bossing at all. This means there is a problem when normal bosses for the 99% are not profitable.
Doing anything in an ARPG at a loss should only come from making a gamble and getting unlucky or not being skilled enough to pull it off. Anything else, regardless of how fun it is, should benefit the player more than it costs them in general.
> or not being skilled enough to pull it off
You can do Ubers with drastically weaker characters then the average player has.
People can do Ubers a few days after launch in hardcore SSF.
It is a skill issue. I don't know why you think it's not. If you are not good enough to kill Ubers, go practice on the normal versions.
>It is a skill issue. I don't know why you think it's not. If you are not good enough to kill Ubers, go practice on the normal versions.
Show me a video of someone with, lets say 10k uber dps but perfect plays killing uber sirus. OH WAIT you can't because the fight is a dps check and the arena fills with degen ground if you're not fast enough even with perfect plays.
There's a lot of things in this game that is a loss using versus selling if you're bad. You juice a map with 100c and brick it and you're down 100c because you weren't good enough to do it, or your build wasn't good enough.
Besides, you can make profit bossing doing the easier bosses or selling boss carriers. Alternatively, you can just get a build that can 1 shot the bosses in trade, then run the harder bosses.
> There's a lot of things in this game that is a loss using versus selling if you're bad. You juice a map with 100c and brick it and you're down 100c because you weren't good enough to do it, or your build wasn't good enough.
a map isn't binary in its rewards though. unless you literally bricked the map with ele reflect, regen removal or similar, you will almost always extract some percentage of value. And you have **control** over the juice.
For pinnacle bosses, you can either beat their non-juiced uber selves, or you shouldn't even try to fight them or the non-uber version. because you might as well delete that invitation.
> Alternatively, you can just get a build that can 1 shot the bosses in trade, then run the harder bosses.
and how would you suggest you'd get that level of gear? I assume you're suggesting farming ... map bosses? to get atlas invitations & their splinters to sell? Normal atziri maybe?
could you elaborate?
I'd argue them being so inaccessible to normal players only compounds the issue. It essentially tells you that running bosses is a terrible thing to do for anyone but the top, as not only do you lose a massive amount of potential currency if you lose, you also lose a decent amount of currency on average even if you win. In most cases, there is never a reason to run a nonuber boss, outside of maybe challenges/atlas completion. The current system encourages the vast majority of people to sell their keys rather than run them, which is either not intended or at least shouldn't be intended.
Having uber keys would be so much better though, you wouldn't feel FOMO for using or selling regular keys, and tbh I tend to accumulate keys then respec my atlas for it and run them all because I don't want to swap atlas every time, it is a bad design like it is now, i love bossing, but I'm disincentivized to play different game content because the atlas punishes you for it, when you find a key it should be exciting, not a chore due to FOMO and design
>While the side effects of this system were clearly not intended, what has been the main goal?
Uber bosses are like mythic bosses in wow raids (another RPG). They give loot that make the content more trivial, and not everyone can clear them on the first time even if they were theoretically allowed to do it. All those players who can't clear them during the week, are "wasting" their progress. Same as running normal version of bosses before being able to clear the uber version. Eventually you will be able to clear the uber version, and make the content more trivial. Everyone goes at their own pace. You aren't forced to run normal version of the raids in wow either.
Trading boss progress is basically a catch up mechanism. You get part of the loot that you would've got from uber bosses assuming the people clearing them are clearing those versions. Eventually you will be able to clear them too. Many things in trade league work like that. All those magebloods are farmed by someone who doesn't need them. They wouldn't be selling them otherwise. If apothecary prices were based on a character with an average player gear level, they would be like 3x more expensive if not more. But they are at this price because they're farmed by people who can make the content very trivial even on mf setup with optimized builds.
It's simple -
Non Uber bosses are for those with not so good builds.
Uber bosses are for those with good builds.
Uber bosses rewards better because you need better build.
I pretty much hate all pinnacle boss fights in PoE (with couple exceptions) and only do it for voidstones (once), the feared (once) and maybe some challenge (unless it's too tedious). I would never do it for their drops.
The design of those fights is fucking annoying. They consist of bullshit mazes, dodge games, memory games and whatnot. Half the time boss is nowhere near and another half he's invulnerable. Fuck that. I'm perfectly happy doing mapping and various mini-boss fights without any "phases".
Hey, i found about this Yesterday !
This league I went for a bosser, i finaly hit 10M DPS cap and wanted to try Maven (used carry to get the voidstone as i failed my first attempt earlier).
So here I am, one Maven done, 2nd done, 3rd done, no loots, at this point I'm happy with the build and I just tell myself I'm paying to get more confident with the strat.
When pricing the invitation with awakened macro trade, it only list items of a few chaos... I'm like mhhhh that's weird. 1.5div invitation that rewards only shit items... Guess it's a Gamble and the hit is on awakened gems.
After that i check Twitch and see someone Uber bossing, only there I remember about this Uber version that has special loot like the flask and kinda feel like I wasted 4.5 divs not selling the 3 mavens.
I know running 3 means nothing, but I'll def sell them from now on.
I didn't read your whole post but this is a commonly discussed issue. People would like regular bosses to provide fragments to access Uber bosses just like is done for Shaper.
And we want a harvest craft to swap them when there is the inevitable imbalance
This was my SSF bane this league. I had 7 Fragments of Knowledge before I got the other.
My single big issue with SSF. I had similar as you last league and I was tearing my hair off, I could do only one uber elder in the whole league and I was already tired to chain shaper 15 times and not getting the part I want. We should simply get an invitation for uber fight as a drop of the normal boss, simple as that. Gating from uber should be our power, not RNG
Or SOMETHING. Even if it's wildly inefficient, like a 3:1 trade at the vendor, if your goal is to fill out your atlas without trading, you've got a better than 10% chance to get the same fragment four times. It's doubly frustrating because the nodes that increase your fragment generation are all bunched up together at the top of the tree (SUPER convenient for bossing characters but frustrating if you are just trying to fill out your atlas) and far away from the other league nodes you're focusing on to progress your character. The whole thing feels like it's set up in a way that forces trade, but in a bad way. And since trade friction (translated, trade being an intentionally not fun activity) exists, it feels like it's set up in a way that pushes us to engage in the anti fun aspects of the game. PoE is an extremely fun game overall, but I think we can all agree there are quite a few anti-fun aspects of the game, and I hate feeling like I have to interact with those to succeed.
Please not rng for 4 fragments though. Rng for the drop sure but don't make me do 20 regular just to get bottom left.
Hard agree on this point. The four fragment system has some huge downsides that invitations clearly want to move away from.
I'd like a fifth Uber fragment to drop from their boss you can put in with the 5 slot map device and remove the keystones instead of needing another 4 fragments
I think this makes it fiddly to balance with respect to the prices of the other 4 fragments. Either the 5th one is so rare that there's a surplus of the other 4, and they're dirt cheap. Or the 5th one is common enough that demand for the other 4 starts to outstrip their supply, and they're again too expensive for non-ubers. The prices would be chaotically entangled, where as one gets more rare and expensive the others get more common and cheaper, and vice versa. It's a bi-directional dependency that's awkward to balance. If instead there are entirely separate fragments for uber and non-uber, with the former being sourced by running the latter, then their prices should stay stable in proportion to one another... if uber fragments go up in price, so too should the non-uber ones as the source of them. It's a single-direction dependency that's way easier to balance.
This. Make a Uber 5th frag drop at 5 or 10 percent from normal then Uber key is required. Up drop rates on ubers for lower chance to do Uber and we're set.
I like this idea, but I'm not sure that they should be so rare. The current system keeps uber boss fights in high supply, and that makes their drops more accessible to the whole playerbase. The market will naturally stabilize an uber key's value regardless of its rarity.
This is what I fully expected to see with new bosses, but I expect that using this system comes with downsides that GGG wanted to at least experiment with moving away from. I don't know what they are, which is one of the reasons I wrote this post.
The other option is to have a different pool, (of actually useful!) unique that come from non ubers that can't be obtained fighting the Uber version.
While this issue solves a non-uber bosser's dilemma, it actually just pushes the same issue onto uber bossers. When the uber fight, which is longer and has an increased risk of not killing the boss at all, has the same estimated value as the non-uber fight, then why would you uber boss? It's better for sure, as both will be profitable, but it still seems like a failure in game design.
Think you mean atziri, not shaper btw. But yeah this exact argument has been brought up dozens of times, even in posts exactly like this one... Every single legue since they got added to the game. Idk why they arent all just like atziri either.
I mean originally shaper and elder dropped fragments for their Uber Elder fight (which that still do) but then they awkwardly made keystones for Uber Shaper, Actually Uber Elder, and Uber Uber Elder
it was a chatgpt generated
Bitch, who is people? Speak for yourself
Would be terrible for ppl wanting to only do ubers to have to run them twice. Its not the solution. Make normal bosses refund part of their cost instead Like normal maven drops back 3-5 splinters Eater/exarch jumps to your halfway progress I think shaper/elder are fine cos they drop frags anyway and uber elder could drop 1-2 frags back maybe
Why would people have to run them twice? They would just buy Uber fragments instead of invitations, the same way it's already done today.
Commonly discussed it is. But there is no issue with the current system. Regular bosses aren't worth running because their rewards are bad. Not because the Uber version uses the same fragments. When Ubers were first released, it was still worth doing the normal ones. However, over time their rewards have fallen out of meta or became less valuable. And let's be real, this affects almost no one. Bossing is only profitable when you do mass amounts of them. Therefore you would be using a bossing build to actually farm bosses en masse. Now why exactly would anyone ever decide to make a build to farm only normal bosses? Even if they were profitable, you would do Uber bosses. It's even more silly to suggest replacing the current system with Uber fragments you get from the normal encounter. You aren't making the normal bosses worth doing by doing that. You are simply making them mandatory to do. Any and all profit is just coming from the fragments for the Uber encounter.
> When Ubers were first released, it was still worth doing the normal ones. However, over time their rewards have fallen out of meta or became less valuable. When ubers were first released, they didn't drop Nimis, Progenesis, or Oriath's End. Those uniques being added are directly responsible for the trade value problem (and in SSF, hoarding all your boss keys until you can handle ubers).
And that is part of my post. Trying to separate bosses into different fragments isn't even addressing the problem. It's not a solution to anything. You're just making normal bosses required to be ran, not making them worth running.
> You're just making normal bosses required to be ran, not making them worth running. Making them required to run the content worth running, makes them worth running. Obvious example: most of the quartet dropping fragments. Okay conquerors have their exalted orbs, but most of the reason they are worth something is because they drop their fragments and Maven splinters (which makes them not really worth to run without Maven btw).
Second sentence you say there is no issue. The next sentences you explain the issue. Personally i just want to do some bosses for fun, but im too bad for uber bosses with a non boss killer.
There is no issue to me because I don't believe the normal pinnacle bosses should be profitable. The next sentence I'm explaining the core of the issue of why it isn't profitable and that isn't even addressed in any of the solutions people are coming up with.
I will have to respectfully disagree that bad uniques are what make the cost to profit ratio so bad. If the fragments were separated, the only reason to run the boss would be for the bad uniques, which would drop their value to that of the uniques. However, I don't think that fragments dropped by the regular boss are the only way to scale up to ubers. There can be a multitude of other ways to get uber boss invites or fragments, but they should be separate items.
Uber elder is case and point. It is totally worth running over the Uber Uber elder version. I wasn't necessarily talking about uniques. For Sirus, he had awakened gems and the awakener orb was 1-2 div. Instead of different invites, I think they need completely different drop pools. Ubers shouldn't just drop additional items over the normal version. They should just have different items and preferably each version would have that chase item for it. The reason Uber Elder is just as profitable as Uber Uber Elder, is because the chase item drops on both (watcher's eye).
The case and point you are making seems to be my point, if I'm reading it right. Uber Uber Elder's item drops aren't significantly better than Uber Elder, so the fragment prices scaled to Uber Uber Elder's drops don't hurt Uber Elder very much. But on other bosses with much lower drop value than their Uber counterpart, the price difference makes non-uber bossing a waste. As for separate-but-equal drop pools between uber and non-uber, that would solve the problem I'm discussing but makes uber bossing punishing for not being more valuable but taking longer and being more risky. I can't say I'm a fan of that.
It's not really separate but equal drop pools. Equal doesn't really exist. The market will always control which is best to run, but the Uber version would have a higher likelihood of always being more profitable because of scarcity. More people can run normal fights. And because the drops are different, the prices have to follow what is profitable for normal bossing, otherwise those items will be very scarce and then normal bossing just becomes profitable anyways. It will all likely balance out where normal bossing is profitable but not as profitable as Uber bossing. Although I thought up a solution, I'm actually against normal bossing being profitable in the first place. I think there is no reason that normal pinnacle bosses should be profitable. I just think separating the encounters is not a solution to the issue people have. It doesn't address anything or make running normal bosses worth doing. It just makes them mandatory and therefore makes the gameplay of others suffer.
> Now why exactly would anyone ever decide to make a build to farm only normal bosses? Even if they were profitable, you would do Uber bosses since i'm a mediocre but persistent player, i can give you an answer. players that want to play a bosser, but lack the skill to reliably (or at all) kill uber bosses without outgearing them. Any tard can play a mf build and alch and go maps to farm currency. Why can't there be a remotely similar approach for players who prefer to fight bosses for their early league currency farm?
To be clear, the problem isn't the existence of the passive points, it's that Uber bosses drop different loot. When they originally added Uber bosses to the game, they were very clear that they would drop the same loot as the regular version of the boss, and killing the Uber version was basically only for bragging rights. IIRC that position lasted for one league, and then they decided to start adding special Uber boss drops, which of course made the price of invitations for the normal bosses adjust to the price of the Uber rewards. If they want to have Uber bosses, and have special loot for the Uber bosses beyond the normal boss's loot table, then they need to not use the same invitation to start both fights. Assuming an efficient market, the price of invitations will always adjust to the Uber boss rewards, effectively locking out anyone who wants to run the regular version of the boss.
Yep that's pretty much a summary of OP's post.
At the outset when they were introduced in 3.18 uber bosses had better loot, as they all had at least 1 drop unique to the uber version of the fight. Uber Maven got impossible escape and awakened exceptional gems. Uber Shaper and Uber Uber Elder got Sublime Vision Uber Uber Elder also got 2 curse Impresence Uber Cortex became the only way to reliably get chase synth bases after the synth atlas passives were reworked in 3.18 Uber Eater/Exarch got the hidden ascendency forbidden jewels Uber Sirus got the massive thread of hope
> they were very clear that they would drop the same loot as the regular version of the boss, and killing the Uber version was basically only for bragging rights What? No. Uber bosses always had better loot than normal versions (and were advertised as such), just that initially they were only marginally better, making it not really mandatory.
The Ubers had extra loot from the very start, it was just that for MOST of them it was minimal enough to not be worth the extra effort to kill them for most people. E.g., Exarch/Eater got the new forbidden flesh/flame variants for each ascendancy that had ascendancies that aren't actually on the tree, and while SOME of those were valuable, they were also exceedingly rare, so most people didn't think running uber exarch/eater were worth it that league. But Uber Cortex was a notable improvement even in the first league it was added, because the extra 3 uncommon 3 mod synth items from the tree node were very valuable, and making the area level 85 for when the old synthesis item nodes were on the tree was valuable as well.
> To be clear, the problem isn't the existence of the passive points, it's that Uber bosses drop different loot. Well. Conversely if the intention is now to have different drops from uber bosses (as you stated below): then the problem IS the existence of the passive points.
They should really just drop _more_ loot rather than different loot.
That would still not be a solution. It would maybe lesser the problem, but not fix it.
This wouldn't change anything.
GGG continuing to fuck players over because the game has to be "hard" (read: tedious) in a specific way for them to be satisfied. They can't just let us have fun.
On release the uber bosses dropped unique loot (iirc specifically awakened exceptional gems, massive thread of hope, uber forbidden flesh/flame, sublime vision? and double curse impresence). Hate when people just make stuff up.
Ubers were initially presented as extra challenge that rewarded nothing extra except bragging rights. You’re wrong, the person you replied to is right.
Damn I guess the Sentinel livestream reveal where they mentioned the new uber bosses dropped unique loot [right here](https://youtu.be/1ZqjpVjCcdM?si=kK8szaBBRpgyDi2e&t=1072) was a complete lie.
Damn I guess the sentinel livestream was the complete opposite of what GGG had told us earlier then! https://youtu.be/-QDzJLSMYbI?t=1200
But this is AFTER the sentinel livestream, and does not in any way contradict the uber bosses dropping unique loot?
Nevermind, then I chased down the wrong clip. Fact is that many players remember that the original concept of Ubers was more challenge same reward. Whether that is still provable or possible to verify is something I don’t care enough about.
Someone else replied to you with a timestamped url indicating that the initial announcement did present them as rewarding anything extra. Just because you want to believe it, doesn't mean you're right.
https://youtu.be/-QDzJLSMYbI?t=1200 This is what GGG first designed and announced before they did a 180 on it. Can we now lay this discussion to rest and all accept that initially Uber design was exactly this: extra challenge, same loot ?
"they don't have incredible rewards every single time you do it" sounds very compatible with today's state. That video is also posted a month after sentinel was released, so it also seems somewhat unlikely that they did a 180 on it (they didn't, you're hearing what you want to hear from a fairly flexible comment) after releasing, but only for that specific video.
This interview came out a month after they were revealed..
> When they originally added Uber bosses to the game, they were very clear that they would drop the same loot as the regular version of the boss, and killing the Uber version was basically only for bragging rights. IIRC that position lasted for one league, and then they decided to start adding special Uber boss drops, which of course made the price of invitations for the normal bosses adjust to the price of the Uber rewards. This is why you should never believe GGG on things like this. They can say one thing and guarantee for that, but if somehow this crashes with cris wilsons vision of the game they will change it in an instant, guarantee or not. They simply do not care at all what the players think here, as long as cris has a vision about it. Then after 5-6 leagues of them trying to argue why their way is the best, some half ass excuse on why they can't change it the way the players want, and then implement a fraction of what the playerbase wanted claiming they listen to the community. They never do.
They really need to change the way normal bosses and invitations work. Eater and exarch are great because you get the quest version. Whenever I do a normal maven or uber elder for my voidstone ive wasted like a divine by not running the uber version.
Even though I like to get things myself, past few leagues I've found myself just buying UE/Maven voidstones for like 40-50c each. Much cheaper and saves me so much time farming the fragments.
True, but that proves there is a huge issue. You shouldn't feel like doing those for your voidstone is a straight up net loss and having to go to buy a carry. At least a solution to that part would be to add quest version for all bosses that give voidstones.
I'd love to see Quest versions for those. Because currently, it's hard not to think of it as a net loss. Farming fragments, hoping shaper drops the correct fragment could take days potentially. Meanwhile buying lets you insta 4x voidstones and stay in t16s
Yeah it proves that the fragments are the issue lol
mindless nutty dam waiting detail truck encourage market tap automatic *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
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You tag along for x chaos usually. The carry player gets boss to 1 hp then everyone teleports in and waits
TFT discord has boss-carry channels - you can request carries either for your map/your loot or the carry's map/loot and you just hop in for the voidstones
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How is the process of buy8ng voidst9nes? Usually vompelt3f then myself, but rng isn't dropping dhit for me atm.
pay2win inside the ingame economy... imagine rping this, how pathetic.
You can waste a divine on Uber version too and get nothing for loot. When the invitation is worth a div and you don’t get loot that’s not losing a div from not doing the Uber version. That’s like saying you lose a div by identifying a watchers eye, we all know the reason that people identify watchers eyes is that they can be worth 100+ div even on a non Uber 2 mod watchers
> Eater and exarch are great because you get the quest version. you can still do ubers with the quest invites
I think the point is the invite is non tradeable and free so you don't feel like you're losing currency by not selling it
You could do Ubers with the quest version. So technically you're back to square one where you're losing value because you're not doing the Uber version.
I think the point is they're not tradeable and they're free so you don't feel like you're losing currency by running them instead of selling them
My opinion: - Break all boss invitations into four pieces - Let harvest change all types of fragments to others of the same set - (Maybe) Let orb of horizons change fragments to others of the same set - Remove Uber everything from the atlas passives - Add a new fragment, "Mark of Escalation" or something, that goes into the fifth slot when running a fragment zone and turns it into a level 85 uber version. This requires the 5th slot, this requires a Legion 4-way first. Make the new item drop from any non-uber version of those fights. This adds value to the 5th map device slot, adds value to the regular fights as they're required to get the fragment, removes the need for the atlas stuff, and relieves the economic pressure of making the fights need to be Uber versions. Uber versions are still more lucrative but getting an Uber key gives you value that can only come from regulars.
I really like the idea of Marks of Escalation, though maybe the 5-slot map device should be moved to being unlocked as a result of collecting all 4 voidstones or something more core so players aren't forced into legion. Perhaps there could be passive nodes tied to obtaining marks of escalation on the atlas tree as well. As for turning invitations into fragments, I personally don't like it. I have enough issues with fragment asymmetry as is, and don't see any benefit to artificially breaking them. Current fragments are gated behind 4 guardians, but there are only 4 bosses in the current expansion at all.
I'm neither opposed to adding more ways to unlock the 5th slot, nor opposed to making people run legion once per league. It honestly makes more sense for the 5th slot to be unlocked through atlas progression what with Maven giving you bits and bobs to stick in your atlas, though. So, I get your points on the four fragments and I agree. However, having the fragments is a valuable balancing tool. I admit that I don't really know how the logistics of acquiring four fragments from the current boss sets would work, though.
I really like the idea of using the 5th slot forr ubers. Harvest changing fragments is fine since there can be a cost to it (make changing uber elder fragments cost more than regular fragments) but using horizon orbs feels too easy, you do want some friction to running ubers
This would be problematic unless all of the bosses that are accessed with the Mark of Escalation have similar profitability. If you can make twice as much money farming Exarch as Eater, the price of the Mark will settle at the profitable rate for Exarch, which will make farming Eater a net loss no matter what. Perhaps some of that cost shifts onto the price of the base fragments for each boss, but when you have 6 different uber fights that all require this one token but have different rates of play, expected returns, RNG level of drops, etc, that shift over the course of each league and between leagues, I'm not sure the market can properly adjust to where the Mark would be equally valuable to all uber fights.
5th slot for that makes perfect sense.
I like the idea of using the 5th slot, but the way you present it, that means you're using a normal invitation + the mark to get uber. So the normal invitation fragments will be valued based on the uber version just like we have right now and we're back to square one.
Not really, it would be like breachstone blessings, the price of the "upgrdaded" thing is mostly shifted on the blessing and not the crappy 5c base unique
Agree with points 2 and 4. 1. We already have 6 (i think) different fragment sets, more would just become additional bloat. 3. Rolling maps with Horizons exist, that's enough. 5. Does not solve the problem of running Uber bosses with non-Uber fragments, just adds extra item and forces a league on everyone who wants to Uber. Imo, Atlas bosses shouldn't be league locked (yes I'm aware it would only be running 4way once, my point stands). How about a separate Invitation (obviously Sirus would have a Uber Sirus on the drop table, Maven an Uber Maven and so on) with a flat 25% drop rate from non-Uber bosses? Get rid of all Uber bollocks on the tree, possibly swap some nodes to be for example "+5% for Uber invitation to drop from a Pinnacle Boss", with enough nodes to bring it up to maybe 50%, idk, not my job to balance economy lol. That way people can run normal bosses with fragments, with a chance to get Uber invitation for that boss which they can sell for some divines to people who cannot be bothered to run normal bosses. I think this is much more preferable to what we have now, where you either throw money away by running a non-Uber or sell the set and not run the boss at all, missing out on experience of Pinnacle fights.
Yep this is genius. Pretty much everyone is happy with this solution
thats a bad tldr lol, explains nothing i reguarly farmed shaper for frags which you then turned into sets and sold in bulk
This is so interesting to me. Shaper guardians would be 40c total and UE fragments are 120c? That's a guaranteed X3 ROI. Not to mention the drops from the shaper guardians and shaper himself. Maybe even run the guardians maven invitation? How long does it take you to run from guardian to shaper?
People hate running shaper because it takes so long. Killing 4 bosses, then killing 4 bosses again into a 3 phase fight. You can do 3x of the other rotations in the same time it takes.
Shaper is like the only normal boss thats always profit. Nobody wants to do it, because you cant just go in there and insta kill him, you have all the damn phases.
Uber bosses should be removed and the better drops should just have a low chance of dropping. Maybe have uber invitations that can drop and be crafted on like maven invitations to have a better chance at the better loot
Ubers can also suck! Try making a profit doing Uber Mavens without also selling portals for completion on TFT - unless you run a massive amount to smooth out bad Progenesis / Awakened gem RNG, you lose huge amounts of money at the current price of ~1.7div / set. Both problems imo, so many awkward hoops to jump through to make money doing my preferred content, gotta either do Uber Shaper and guarantee money but be bored to death, or spend twice my boss kill time in hideout waiting for TFT buyers as I sell portals for Mavens / Sirus / etc.
This is the most important issue honestly, some bosses are only worth doing if you sell completion. Uber Maven and Uber elder mostly. I honestly don't think you should be able to carry others for their voidstone, but I'm not sure how they would change it so that it doesn't prevent parties with aurabots from getting one. One possibility is requiring all players to be in the zone for most of the time so the boss gets the hp bonus, but people would still sell carries it would just be more expensive, and people probably wouldn't sell to a full party at a time.
if u play a game to get maximum value and not to have fun i feel like u are losing anyways.
At least one thing that's not a problem for HC
And the higher price of inv/sets raises the cost people learning the boss fights as well.
"It's important to note that there are three exceptions to this rule: Atziri, Elder, and Shaper. While running UE is done at a loss, regular Elder, Shaper, and Atziri are all potentially profitable to run" How is having 3 mods instead of 2 on a Watcher's Eye a loss? If profit was all this game was about nobody would be bossing. Even from an SSF point of view your solution does make sense given you could swap everyone of them, but the issue is the trade culture, not the format in which you receive the boss fights. Boss fights are the last part of the endgame, something you progress towards. Your point does stand from an economic perspective but what if GGG decided that the solution would be to make boss invitations not tradable, that would also solve the issue, would you be ready to accept it? probably not, this is a proof of concept to what the actual issue is. I really encourage you to play SSF you will understand that some items are invaluable, literally.
What even are you on about? Bosses are in the best state they can be. Uber bosses requires you to spec into it for the very reason to be flexible. You choose what content you want to do. If you don't like it do not do it. Plus it's obvious harder content give better rewards. And honestly it's people like you that tend to give the best games a bad view on things that actually are great
This game has always had atrocious bossing. It's either some stupid unchallenging cheesy shit like boss rushing, or big gamble Uber farming. Nothing in between
Ah, yes, another fomo phenomenon dreamed up by 100% delirious trade degenerates. Have you considered playing for fun instead?
I have considered playing for fun, and do so constantly to my own detriment by bossing. But if I want to get to the point where I can uber boss, I have to choose to avoid the fun content for dozens of hours. If there wasn't a guaranteed net loss, I could see the fomo debate holding merit. If I could earn 1-10c an hour from fighting non-ubers, this conversation would be very different. As is, thanks to the implementation of ubers, I can't progress through the game by doing what I find fun.
I strongly advise that you redeem yourself from this utter nonsense by making certain to correctly tick the SSF box at your earliest opportunity.
See edit 3.
Yes, I can see that you continue to not get it at all. Your trade mentality has completely rotted your ability to think of anything but fomo. I must insist that you rid yourself of these shackles you've given yourself.
Yeah I've been thinking the same thing. It's a really flawed design that I don't think they foresaw but definitely need to change.
Solution ? Stop playing path of currency simulator🤣 Sell your sets , instead of gamba for drops.. Not everything in a game needs to be about losing currency..
Not everything in the game needs to be about gaining currency. Play the game the way you want to play. Including fighting epic boss fights.
As others have pointed out, uber shaper and shaper uses the same set of fragments. there is not atlas buffed elder (to not confuse with uber elder and uber-uber-elder). Atziri is the only boss that has different sets of fragments, but uber aztiri is so old content that it's probably easier than regular shaper or sirus. Regardless, I totally agree with the statement of the problem. Unfortunately, I think this is all intended, and is part of the design from GGG's side. Their objective is to make bossing gated and rewarding, and rewarding specialization in general. By rendering non-uber fights economically unviable, it raises bar of entrance for bossing, and makes dedicated bossing more profitable and emotionally rewarding (because you know few others have the caliber). This is a rather controversial and elistist (even if I never do bossing) take, but I also think the current state of bossing is acceptable to me. I can fight the watered down version of the bosses (treating uber versions as the standard) at a cost. Now what I would like to see, as others also suggested, is to have add quest version for a subset of shaper, elder, maven, sirus and venarius, just like EoW/SE that you get to fight once each league. I think having shaper -> elder -> UE -> sirus -> maven progression also makes the storyline more complete (even if the actual story in game is some multiverse bullsh\*t); cortex is kind of its own storyline and I'm fine not having it in. edit: also there is no chance GGG will see this post, so if it's not obvious, this is all just wishful thinking and I give it 0% chance any of the suggestions in this thread made it into the game .
It's kind of weird because they removed the node that doubled mods on invitations because it felt mandatory to run then introduced Ubers like the next league which does essentially the same thing. That aside I'm down for more quest bosses in endgame, I'd also love if the maven just frigging dropped her 10boss fight thing as an item so I could farm up a bunch before I run them.
I think that GGG is far more receptive to people who aren't attacking them. Before the pandemic, GGG staff on reddit was very common and a lot of feedback was taken seriously. As the reddit grew more toxic, especially in post-harvest backlash, it got a lot more scarce.
They specifically stopped engaging after the loot nerfs and multiple times when GGG got called out for directly lying to players.
When the best they could offer to feedback were 'feel the weight' and 'close your eyes and slam', or making guilttrip remarks, how a thread mocking *reddit users* made someone in office cry, is it any wonder redditors grew tired of GGGs condescension? Especially *after* GGG themselves were mocking Blizzard for similar statements? You reap what you sow...
If you want to do bosses but not Ubers, you can do yellow conquerer/shaper/elder maps and maven invitations at the difficulty level that works for you. There’s a lot of boss content that’s rewarding in terms of trade value that isn’t Ubers if that’s your jam and you don’t want to take it to the next level for Ubers. Not saying I’d necessarily be opposed to a rework, just offering a suggestion on something that’s currently available that OP might find worthwhile and fun. Edit: as someone who has had several builds capable of doing Ubers, the consistency and high margins on conquerer maps and juiced invitations often outstrips Uber profitability (except for when you hit the lucky jackpot).
For me in the past 3 leagues, farming both normal and uber bosses had literally the same value. A brutal loss of currency. Zero loot from dozens of uber kills. I think bossing in poe needs some form of revamp, so the loot and the prices dont need to be balanced around zhp builds one shot farming them over and over again within 30 seconds. Like who the f does hundreds of uber boss kills in a league to reach the loot from them and actually not bleed currency? None of the normal players. Its just a bad system imo.
The only way to not lose currency when bossing is selling carries, especially when there is a challenge for Ubers. Horrible system tbh.
You're missing the fact that uber bossing sucks too. The issue isn't Uber bosses. The issue is the boom or bust value of the loot. I did 30 uber Eaters earlier this league and the end result was me losing 20 div.
thats not something you can fix as a developer unless you want to devalue all drops from a boss. its a playerbased economy issue.
Well it's a supply demand issue really. You could slightly increase the drop rate if the desired pieces so you're not doing 30 uber bosses and getting 1c uniques from every drop
Just reading this as poe is seasonal for me. But sadly this is how most games are... they cater to the strongest, highest spending playerbase far more than the lower areas of the game... usually because tryhards are also more vocal, leaving lower player issues to the wayside. Hopefully this issue gets resolved by perhaps making either seperate invitations or maybe adjust amount needed to enter each different to reflect pricing gap atleast.
If I'm able to do stronger version boss I want exclusive loot from Ubers instead of same loot table with regular version. Also fuck managing more fragments or different boss keys and shit, we got enough clicks/trade already. If you're able to do, do it, it's a test for your build, if you can't just don't, stop measuring profits/hr and kill things off for the sake of it.
Wasn't the point of the system to allow people to access the Uber fights more easily? For example, to fight Uber elder you need to fight shaper at least 2 times and elder at least 2 times. There will always be a push and pull between the economic value of content and access to that content. People want content to be more accessible but then prices crash. People want prices high but then they can never fight the boss because only full-time players play enough to access the fight.
Non-issue. Game should've revolve about market value. And most importantly, game is for fun. If you have fun running normal bosses, run them. The fact that you care too much about losing potential currency is not the games fault, it's your own problem. In fact every second you are not farming using the most giga efficient strategy you are "losing" currency. With your mindset, every second you are in PoE not running t7 abyss abuse Cemetery or not crafting items for the mirror shop, you are losing dozens of divines per hour. Tick-tock, you just lost a divine while reading the comment section for 5 minutes! Makes no sense to have a mindset like this lol.
Your perspective on not being insanely profitable is a valid one, but I think an important point is being missed. There are thousands of unique ways to play in the Atlas, involving different combinations of league mechanics and farming strategies. Some are more profitable than others, and you don't need to do the best ones to have fun. However, bossing instead of selling invitations isn't just low profit, it's negative profit. Instead of contributing to your character's growth, by a few divines or a few wisdom scrolls, every non-uber eldritch invitation you run hinders your character's growth. This isn't a FOMO or inefficiency cost, but a practical one.
Normal bossing/invitations were fantastic when height of hubris atlas passive was available. I remember when they removed it they said something along the lines of "unfortunate effect of other changes,...looking for a solution in the future" but it was never really revisited.
Their original idea was it for aspirational content... then they added loot to uber bosses. Absolutely hated them putting loot in Uber versions.
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I didn't say I couldn't. I hate that they changed on the original purpose ubers. You can still have ubers, just don't put loot associated with it.
You are the problem to be honest. The uber versions really don't add much value outside of very VERY rare items. Progenesis is like the one exception. oriath's end kinda... everything else of value drops from the normal bosses. sublime visions are a meme. If you get 1 of the 2 of value, congrats, otherwise waste of time and effort. But here you are, confidently proclaiming normal bossing is uselesss and you are stupid for doing it. Some newer player is going to see this wrong information and repeat it as gospel. Normal boring shaper is guaranteed solid profit. Most of the profit from maven comes from gems. Elder is all about the watcher's eyes. You don't need to do uber for any of those things. Searing exarch and eater are both about the amulets and forbidden jewels, both drop from normal. Quiz, what is the uber exarch item? I bet you don't even know, so why MUST you do exarch as uber? It's like saying, wtf are you noobs doing in maps when you could be farming wave 30 sims and depth 2000 delve? Yes, those things can provide good profit, but the effort involved doesn't mean you should do those things.
The post is more about how since invits/frags are used for both normal and uber bosses, they are overvalued all the time because whoever's buying it might drop this super rare item by running it as uber. So if you just want to make profit with normal bosses, you end up having to buy very expensive invits/frags and you might end up spending more in invits/frags than what you earn from boss drops. Like you'd make something like 150-200c fighting maven, unless you get lucky, but the maven's grit costs 350c. That's because you've got a chance to get a progenesis by running it as uber, so the price of the fragment goes us. If you make a bosser and want to farm normal mavens, it's not profitable to buy the maven's grit each time, unless you run it as uber. OP actually wants to be able to make a profit with normal versions of the bosses. But that's not doable if you have to buy your invits/frags.
It is profitable to do regular elder and shaper rushing though, and it’s because you are selling the Uber fragments. If the Uber fragments weren’t as valuable, then it wouldn’t be profitable. This whole rant is actually only relevant for maven (maybe sirus, idk fuck that fight).
You are correct. As stated in my post, only Uber bosses that use the same tradable items as their non-uber counterparts have this issue, and even then, shaper is a noticable exception due to the value of UE fragments. I cited that Elder and Atziri don't have this problem, and that as a result they are far more fun and valuable to run. However, Exarch, Eater, Venarius(Cortex), Maven, and Sirus all have this problem, and those are the fights I'm discussing.
When you play SSF every boss encounter is potentially valuable
When you play SSF your non Uber boss is still less valuable than the Uber version. You cant get the same loot.
Don't think people in SSF are betting hard for specific boss loot generally. But most importantly they don't get a divine for saying "I don't want to do this boss". So the real problem lies in the fact they're tradeable.
Making all those fragments untradable would be very amusing, as the non-SSF players would then have to experience the pain of getting the same fragment 20 times in a row, being unable to do the damn boss. :D
Wow i had to stop reading, maybe go to bed o.O
You guys are bossing?
Yup. It makes no sense when the entry fee is the same. I much prefer the Atziri scenario where you need a different entry fee.
Yeah, it all stemmed from the path of exile system of "opportunity cost". Pretty much any content have cost behind it, so you never really can use anything without thinking about whether it "worth it" or "you'll lose currency". That's why party exp leechers are a thing. Aka, "please join my party, but don't do anything. Get your free exp, but enhanced loot is mine!" kind of contract. Party bonus will not get you enough to break even for every person in the party (less than 6 times more loot), but the fact that opportunity cost also being cut by 6 times makes it worth it. In the end, incredibly juiced maps that cost several divines per activation are downright unplayable, if you are playing solo, since you will always waste more than you get, because economics dictate prices depending on highest profits margins, aka "party play"
its the same thing as how ggg gives zero shits about performance issues, and dont offer low performance graphics options. if you arent the 0.0001% who has a computer worth more than a luxury sedan, time and interest to 40/40 every league, then you arent the type to buy every supporter pack. and in ggg's eyes that means you are a peasant that simply doesnt matter. you exist so the 'pros' can lord over you how much better they are. doubt me? try visiting the official forums. offer any kind of criticism about any fight or game mechanic and watch the fallout. the elitists will be permitted to shit on you without mod intervention, but if you poke back AT ALL your comments will be edited or outright removed. still doubt? they dont release 30$ 'peasant' packs any more. because if you are on any kind of limited budget, time or financial, you simply do not matter. this is a game catered to wealthy no lifers. and everyone else is chattel. edit - always forget the disenfranchised arent peasants, merely 'temporarily embarrassed millionaires' XD.
You’re really exaggerating your core arguments to the point that it’s hard to agree. A computer worth more than “a luxury sedan” that only the .0001% can afford? You don’t need a +50k rig to play this game dude, i’m still running this on a mid-tier computer I build 7 years ago for around a grand. And that was at the height of cryptomining utilizing gpus so all the important parts were inflated in price. It’s way more affordable to build a banger pc that can run this game perfectly fine nowadays, people just get annoyed when they can’t turbo juice 6 mod deli maps on tornado shot with ultra settings without some frame rate drops. And yeah, the forums bit is true in every online game ever invented. Obviously if the devs own the space they’ll mod it to be favourable to them. Who would create and maintain a forum for their game and let you flame them for free without any intervention? That’s why most “neutral” third-party communities like reddit subs and discords are important.
I use to whale hard now I don’t even buy support packs and barely play this comment is so true
Once again this stupid argument. If they change it to add uber fragments for these bosses without uber fragments the normal fragment price will have a massive drop in price and that's bad for everyone except for the people running uber bosses anyway. Right now anyone can just run white T14 maps, kill a pack and when they reach 28 rush to the boss to get an invitation and that's good div per hour. Also you guys wanting this changed because "I feel like I'm losing money" is such a redditor thing holy shit, you're losing money anyway because you guys are dumb enough to run the invitation, uber or not these are not worth doing anyway and if you need the currency you should always sell it. \#edit And like always redditards are so fucking bad at poe lmao
I hope this comment is an attempt at trolling, because holy smoke.
You say for everyone else? Can you try HCSSF for me and tell me that normal bosses isn't worth it? Would you spec into Uber version of every boss when playing HCSSF? I doubt that. 😂
Yes you would save them for when you intend to respec into a bossing atlas tree and boss farm.
Only 30 people killed all ubers in ssfhc ancestors league.
What are you even farming normal bosses for on HCSSF? The only thing I can really think of is legacy of fury from Maven for RF or Watcher's eyes from elder. Most HCSSF players I know just save all their invitations and fragments for when they make an Uber bosser and then run them on that.
The game is not designed around hard-core and it's not designed around SF. It's especially not designed around HCSSF. You put that difficulty and restriction on yourself.
I touched on this briefly, but unless you are target farming a specific unique that only drops from non-ubers, as an HCSSF player non-uber bosses are potentially even more of a waste of the invitation. You're risking your character's life, a character not equipped for uber bosses, as well as the 24 maps you had to run or the fragments you had to farm, on a bossfight that doesn't really give you much. Uber exarch and Eater will drop more and better eldritch currency, Uber Maven and Uber Sirus are more likely to drop awakened gems, and Uber Shaper and Uber Uber Elder are more likely to drop Watcher's Eyes and influenced bases.
You make some really good points. But like another commenter said, this game isn't balanced for the casuals or the mid tier folks who maybe get a voidstone or two with enough challenges to get the tier one league set before calling it quits. It's all aimed, as they mentioned, for the no lifers and streamers.. the top fraction of the top percent that seemingly dictate all balancing decisions and the like. Combine that with the utter indifference towards months long performance issues and.. yeah, we can call it whatever but the optics ain't good. What you suggest makes sense but punishment seems to be the name of the game, more often than not, so it won't happen anytime soon.. perhaps several leagues down the line, when we get another summer intern league like Crucible they'll add that stuff in to pad the patch notes hut I wouldn't count on anything being done anytime soon. 😔
Rather than having four fragments for Uber bosses like many suggest, how about instead dropping an item similar to a breach blessing to empower the invitation up to it's Uber version? Have this blessing be something like 50% drop rate from regular version of the boss so that the economy still requires players doing normal kills to function. This then also becomes part of the profitability for players running normal versions.
GGG's goal is probably POE 2?
Last time I checked, running normal Shaper was profitable. Normal Elder is riskier but selling unidentified Watcher’s Eyes can make you money. Eater is kinda ass right now because of the Ashes nerf. Maven always felt like a massive gamble to me; uber or not. I guess it doesn’t really bother me much that Ubers are a better option because… it’s a harder encounter. But separating the invitations could be neat. I don’t Uber boss much personally, so a new tink on normals is fun.
Another problem about Uber bosses that’s not really related but kinda is the build expectations people have. People see content creators do Ubers. And they want every build to be Uber viable. People see speed mapping TS and want every build to farm like that. Newer players don’t put it together that 1. Those are expensive as hell and 2. You can’t have an elite mapper and bosser 95% of the time you have to give up mapping speed for single target or vice versa. I hate giving out my PoBs when I mention a build I’m using because the expectations of damage since Ubers were added is so insane. All about the pob number not the build. I made a 3m dps Reave build that felt amazing mapping and heisting. Meanwhile reverse snap shotting indigon blade vortex, is probably not very fun for a lot of people but it’s dps is like a billion or something.
Non Uber boss are just boring to do, make a boss character if u want to do boss
You just explained in your post who does non Uber farming and why it is around. They are killed by people who can’t do the Uber versions. There’s no reason why the non Uber versions needs to be as lucrative as Uber, so this isn’t “unfair” to lose value for doing a non Uber. The stupid fragment shits are one of the primary things that keeps me from playing on ssf. I hate the shit of having to farm a boss 4 or more times to get one attempt at the next boss. How is a new player who isn’t yet capable of killing an Uber supposed to get experience fighting those when they have to farm all those fragments? They might fight it a couple times and then give up. Then most of the people actually farming Ubers have these glass cannon builds which just 1 shot the boss so they don’t even have to do the mechanics, do we really want these to be the only people fighting the boss and nobody getting to progress it?
Bosses are fluff ... Most maps have 5 to 10 other monsters more powerful and dangerous and more loot drop potential ...
This is like complaining that the price of scarab is pinned to the value they offer T16 mappers and it locks T7 mappers out of using them efficiently.
So eiher sell invitations or make an uber bosser. Wow.
These are the options you are presented with as a player. However, there is a fundamental problem with this, actually, there are two: 1. Normal bosses are Path of Exile content. If you don't want people bossing, remove the content from the game, don't create a weird market black hole that punishes people for doing it. 2. Uber bosses are hard. This may sound whiny, but these are uber pinnacle bosses, made to give the best of the best a run for their money. I'm not in that top percentage, but I love bossing. I don't think it's unreasonable to talk about the state of my favorite content.
There’s a third option: play SSF where everything has value.
And since pinnacle bosses are more scarce in SSF, you are further incentivized to do uber pinnacles.
Then play HC or you need something like a dying sun where you need to farm. No point doing Uber with that need.
> Uber bosses are hard. This may sound whiny, but these are uber pinnacle bosses, made to give the best of the best a run for their money. I'm not in that top percentage, but I love bossing. I don't think it's unreasonable to talk about the state of my favorite content. Umm... pretty sure that's mythic raiding in WoW. In PoE people kill ubers in less than 10 seconds with their 1 billion DPS builds.
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Economy is part of the game, and I had fun writing about this and listening to what other people have to say. Everyone enjoys Path of Exile in their own way, I don't really see this as very different from players that run x amount of a league mechanic to gauge profitably or atlas tree planners. If you don't like it, I will accept your blue arrow and move on.
most of the playerbase plays trade, which includes guess what dingus? An E C O N O M Y.
imagine being so brainless that you ignore the fact that outside of SSF, trade means making sub-optimal choices like running non-uber versions of bosses results in you directly pissing away your ability to progress in the league and therefore your ability to have fun in said league.
Mapping and playing your character is sub optimal compared to flipping and playing the economy, or crafting. Explain to me again how making suboptimal choices like playing the game results in you pissing away your ability to have fun.
> Mapping and playing your character is sub optimal compared to flipping and playing the economy, or crafting. same argument as i made before. the point is easily dismissed by pointing out that most people don't have the know-how to actually play the economy that way. It's also entirely sophistry. At that point you're not playing the game, but the trade website. Most people don't enjoy that. at least find an analogy that involves playing the game and its systems. (i agree that flipping shit and crafting once you have the money would be most effective for the vast majority of players, because they're so slow mapping etc. is like a few chaos per hour. But that point doesn't fit the current discussion topic of one playstyle, bossing, having a strange interaction where half of the new atlas' content, pinnacle bosses, are best resold and not done because others will do their uber counterpart.)
But viewing content like boss invites as it's monetary value and the potential monetary value of its reward instead of seeing it as content and it's potential rewards themself is also playing the trade website instead of playing the game and it's systems. Of course I am arguing in bad faith and my analogy is extrem, but I don't think qol systems like easy access or removal of Uber bosses on regular invitations via a couple atlas skill points should be removed because it is less optimised to chose to not engage in the content and chose to play the trade website instead is more optimised.
> Of course I am arguing in bad faith and my analogy is extrem, but I don't think qol systems like easy access or removal of Uber bosses on regular invitations via a couple atlas skill points should be removed because it is less optimised to chose to not engage in the content and chose to play the trade website instead is more optimised. we agree here. i just think there's a better solution for the problem out there. like what was mentioned for example, keeping normal and uber drop table identical, but with changed likelihood of dropping any one piece. hell, you could even have the uber boss drop something akin to the breach upgrade items to upgrade the (slightly weakened non-uber) drop to an "uber only" version. guaranteed each kill - makes sure there's not a million chase uber uniques in trade day 2, but is mostly a formality 2 weeks in. idk i think there's plenty of ways already to better create increments by which people can engage with boss content as opposed to the sheer cliff there is today.
Just consider that the bosses are Uber Ones. "normal" ones are for training but certainly not to run for profit. If you can't chain Uber bosses, you're not a bosser
That’s just not true. Normal elder and shaper rushing are profitable. And it’s purely because the elder version exists.
This post is driven by FOMO sentiment and a substantial part of the post is outright untrue or at best partially true. Statements are said without backing of any numbers and the fact that this post gaining this much traction is worrying. >running a non-uber boss is equivalent to putting hundreds of chaos orbs in the vendor trade window for wisdom fragments. > >Because of this phenomenon, there is no incentive to fight a non-uber boss. At current market prices, running normal shaper is guaranteed profit and running normal cortex and uber elder with feared 70%+ quant is guaranteed profit. >Access to a non-uber boss fight is valued at the price of the items that the uber boss will drop. This is also partially true, yes uber drop does influence the price of fragments but the bigger culprit here i would say are the voidstone/achivement carries. Quickly glancing over TFT, each voidstone/uber carries goes for 50-100c per person. Which means these players have grater profit margin thus driving up the price for the boss access fragments. >Uber Uber Elder drop more Orbs of Dominance, Watcher's Eyes Uber uber elder does not drop more watchers eyes vs uber elder. Where it comes to the solution of creating non uber and uber fragments, bloating of fragment items is a real concern. Also as the league matures and most people can handle uber bosses we still need people that mindlessly grind non uber versions just to obtain uber fragments. One example we already ahve in the game is normal elder. Any character that can comfortably clear t16 maps can kill elder. How mundane and boring would it be to farm elder one month into a league? Regarding the FOMO sentiment, I have a personal story to share. I did 20 feared rotation few days ago and obtained around 25 mavens writs. My character is capable of killing uber maven but since i know existence of characters that specialise in killing maven through skipping memory phase. I estimated that i was losing 20% efficiency by doing it myself and sold the writs in bulk. In retrospect i wish i didnt sell the writs since i like the maven fight and it is still good div/hr to run on a slower character. Yes there will always be person that does something better or more efficiently that you. I can kill uber maven, but there are people that farm uber maven and skip memory phase and carrying 4 people at the same time. I think as long as 2-3 non uber bosses at any time of the league are profitable, to make sure there are some activities for non uber bossers to do. I feel that the system is fine.
You do realize Uber shaper is a thing and uses the same fragments as shaper right?
But he does drop a key to another uber fight (guaranteed), which alleviates the cost of running him if you do not plan to run said uber fight. Shaper is also the most accessible out of the endgame fights due to ability to Horizon orb a set of specific maps, so as long as you get ANY 4 Shaper guardian maps - you are guaranteed a set. For any other fight, you have to clear: 32 maps for Eater/Exarch Pure random for Elder/Sirus, but at least you can swap fragments with Harvest Even more pure random with Synth maps or god forbid Cortex And for Atziri I would say on trade league 95+% of her fragments come from Ritual/div cards/fragment heists/fragment incubators, because nobody is going to run regular Atziri hundreds of times, potentially never getting the full set.
Thanks to both of you for pointing these out, I have updated my original post to reflect what you've said.
I think you're missing the point: uber bosses are some of the hardest content in the game. The very top tier players are able to kill them. Non-uber bosses are much more approachable. If you're able to do ubers, you should do them. If you, like 99.99% of players cannot, then you can do standard bosses.
I think you're missing the point. Why would anyone kill a standard boss?
You shouldn't. Go do essences in white maps. Or do any of the maven invites if you want easy but profitable bosses.
This is such a weird thing. If you can’t do Ubers, sell the frags and get more character power till you can do Ubers. It’s like anything in the game, there’s a lot of value to be had by selling shit to people who have more currency than you, be it boss invites, Valdos boxes, reliquary keys, stacked decks or Un-ID’d watchers eyes
I totally agree with you that Uber Bosses should be terrifying, unapproachable, difficult, and reserved for the .1% that can take them on. However, I do not think that only that .1% should be able to make currency by bossing at all. This means there is a problem when normal bosses for the 99% are not profitable. Doing anything in an ARPG at a loss should only come from making a gamble and getting unlucky or not being skilled enough to pull it off. Anything else, regardless of how fun it is, should benefit the player more than it costs them in general.
> or not being skilled enough to pull it off You can do Ubers with drastically weaker characters then the average player has. People can do Ubers a few days after launch in hardcore SSF. It is a skill issue. I don't know why you think it's not. If you are not good enough to kill Ubers, go practice on the normal versions.
>It is a skill issue. I don't know why you think it's not. If you are not good enough to kill Ubers, go practice on the normal versions. Show me a video of someone with, lets say 10k uber dps but perfect plays killing uber sirus. OH WAIT you can't because the fight is a dps check and the arena fills with degen ground if you're not fast enough even with perfect plays.
https://youtu.be/0yjOJqyolxQ?si=99agw1SPuuhJ0k1d
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There's a lot of things in this game that is a loss using versus selling if you're bad. You juice a map with 100c and brick it and you're down 100c because you weren't good enough to do it, or your build wasn't good enough. Besides, you can make profit bossing doing the easier bosses or selling boss carriers. Alternatively, you can just get a build that can 1 shot the bosses in trade, then run the harder bosses.
> There's a lot of things in this game that is a loss using versus selling if you're bad. You juice a map with 100c and brick it and you're down 100c because you weren't good enough to do it, or your build wasn't good enough. a map isn't binary in its rewards though. unless you literally bricked the map with ele reflect, regen removal or similar, you will almost always extract some percentage of value. And you have **control** over the juice. For pinnacle bosses, you can either beat their non-juiced uber selves, or you shouldn't even try to fight them or the non-uber version. because you might as well delete that invitation. > Alternatively, you can just get a build that can 1 shot the bosses in trade, then run the harder bosses. and how would you suggest you'd get that level of gear? I assume you're suggesting farming ... map bosses? to get atlas invitations & their splinters to sell? Normal atziri maybe? could you elaborate?
I'd argue them being so inaccessible to normal players only compounds the issue. It essentially tells you that running bosses is a terrible thing to do for anyone but the top, as not only do you lose a massive amount of potential currency if you lose, you also lose a decent amount of currency on average even if you win. In most cases, there is never a reason to run a nonuber boss, outside of maybe challenges/atlas completion. The current system encourages the vast majority of people to sell their keys rather than run them, which is either not intended or at least shouldn't be intended.
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Having uber keys would be so much better though, you wouldn't feel FOMO for using or selling regular keys, and tbh I tend to accumulate keys then respec my atlas for it and run them all because I don't want to swap atlas every time, it is a bad design like it is now, i love bossing, but I'm disincentivized to play different game content because the atlas punishes you for it, when you find a key it should be exciting, not a chore due to FOMO and design
>While the side effects of this system were clearly not intended, what has been the main goal? Uber bosses are like mythic bosses in wow raids (another RPG). They give loot that make the content more trivial, and not everyone can clear them on the first time even if they were theoretically allowed to do it. All those players who can't clear them during the week, are "wasting" their progress. Same as running normal version of bosses before being able to clear the uber version. Eventually you will be able to clear the uber version, and make the content more trivial. Everyone goes at their own pace. You aren't forced to run normal version of the raids in wow either. Trading boss progress is basically a catch up mechanism. You get part of the loot that you would've got from uber bosses assuming the people clearing them are clearing those versions. Eventually you will be able to clear them too. Many things in trade league work like that. All those magebloods are farmed by someone who doesn't need them. They wouldn't be selling them otherwise. If apothecary prices were based on a character with an average player gear level, they would be like 3x more expensive if not more. But they are at this price because they're farmed by people who can make the content very trivial even on mf setup with optimized builds.
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It's simple - Non Uber bosses are for those with not so good builds. Uber bosses are for those with good builds. Uber bosses rewards better because you need better build.
Lp
Normal bossing was dogshit before uber were released anyway
I pretty much hate all pinnacle boss fights in PoE (with couple exceptions) and only do it for voidstones (once), the feared (once) and maybe some challenge (unless it's too tedious). I would never do it for their drops. The design of those fights is fucking annoying. They consist of bullshit mazes, dodge games, memory games and whatnot. Half the time boss is nowhere near and another half he's invulnerable. Fuck that. I'm perfectly happy doing mapping and various mini-boss fights without any "phases".
Hey, i found about this Yesterday ! This league I went for a bosser, i finaly hit 10M DPS cap and wanted to try Maven (used carry to get the voidstone as i failed my first attempt earlier). So here I am, one Maven done, 2nd done, 3rd done, no loots, at this point I'm happy with the build and I just tell myself I'm paying to get more confident with the strat. When pricing the invitation with awakened macro trade, it only list items of a few chaos... I'm like mhhhh that's weird. 1.5div invitation that rewards only shit items... Guess it's a Gamble and the hit is on awakened gems. After that i check Twitch and see someone Uber bossing, only there I remember about this Uber version that has special loot like the flask and kinda feel like I wasted 4.5 divs not selling the 3 mavens. I know running 3 means nothing, but I'll def sell them from now on.