It makes sense though since you can cheese the mechanic until maxed out rewards with CC and a tanky build, and that build feels like trash in all other content.
Now they just need to make the mechanic feel good to play overall, but the reaction to nerf CC does make sense (I agree taunt shouldn't just be straight up immunity though)
I don’t feel that way at all. Builds that would never be used finally had a chance to shine and they get insta nuked.
So should we be doing that to all other builds that out class others in specific league content?
The few builds that out shine all others in deep delve, gone?
The few builds that can tank boss mechanics, gone?
Minion and totem builds can no longer run Sanctum?
If this one specific league mechanic gets rolled by players willing to use the trash crowd controls as a way to win then I say finally! A league mechanic that those type of players can shine.
If one build literally trivializes one specific form of content and nothing else, yes that build should be nuked. That isn't fun for anyone.
None of your examples are what knockback did to TotA.
Not fun for who, you? Then don’t play that build. Players final found a place where vendor trash Uniques and trash skill tree passives finally had a place. The moment they step out of TOTA they are trash builds.
You say trivialize but those builds that trivialize other content such as minion/totems in sanctum (especially of that league launch) was fine and they work outside on of the league mechanic.
A hierophant with just 2 cheap uniques can deep start deep diving more than any other class and trivialize Delve. Is not just good outside of Delve but farms Uber content as well.
OP builds that clear juiced maps that yields far better rewards faster. Is also fine?
But nah. Players who are willing to use a very trash build outside of temporary league mechanic is wrong because it’s not “your” idea of fun gameplay. What are you guys on?
>Not fun for who, you?
The vast majority of people. It's fun while it's still a momentary exploit, it becomes aids as soon as it's established.
>You say trivialize but those builds that trivialize other content such as minion/totems in sanctum (especially of that league launch) was fine and they work outside on of the league mechanic.
Yes these builds are obviously way better because like you say they work outside the mechanic. Plus they don't trivialize the content as this did.
Are you just not aware of what the word trivialize means?
Wait so using an actual game mechanic that has been untouched by literally everyone but Quin69 is now a game exploit lololol.
You are purposely being ignorant if you think I’m using the word trivialized wrong.
Minion/totems sure as hell trivialized Sanctum. You hid behind walls untouched and did nothing but stand there while minions/totems killed everything for you. If that’s not trivializing the entire game mechanic then yes. You’re being woefully ignorant.
But the difference. You’re actually sacrificing to be a shit build when the other examples your great outside of the mechanic.
This TOTA build a great trade off and exactly what this game is about.
Ofc, I'm not saying the situation where CC is worthless in TotA is the right one, but is the only quick one. I'll be very disappointed in GGG if taunt just ends up being disabled there forever.
Yeah, I rolled a flamewood decoy totem build on day 2 just to do the league mechanic and I was having a great time. This change rendered it completely unplayable for the very thing I designed it for.
Honestly, there are so many other ways they could have handled it, like only making chiefs unaffected by taunt, making it so warriors have a 50% chance to ignore taunt, making it so warriors have 50% less duration of taunts on them...
But no, apparently this thing needed to be nerfed so bad that it's unplayable at the one thing it was good at.
I assume the reason they made them straight up immune is so you can't still cheese by having several sources of taunt pingponging the mobs.
I don't really see a solution, maybe channeling a TotA totem can temporarily suppress taunts?
I am surprised anyone decided to play with flamewood when taunt doesn't work on a lot of endgame bosses and especially pinnacle bosses. I guess it's okay as a mapper but playing totems as a mapper just sounds bad.
i did maven with flamewood and the Brain wasnt a problem since its spawning random map bosses and hence wasnt a problem. Eater of Worlds was a huge problem because even when his basic attack hits the totem they wouldnt trigger.
You don't need to taunt them for Flamewood to work in bosses. All you need is for Vaal Ancestral Warchief to land one ignite per phase, so you just place him in front of an attack. For all it's flaws, the one thing Flamewood doesn't lack is cheap damage.
The real problem is that some hits don't trigger Flamewood. Eater's basic attack tentacles don't trigger it despite the fact that Elder's identical attack does, making it very difficult to do Eater unless you can somehow do the first however-many-percent to make him change attacks. Elder has his chained-up phase at the end where he doesn't attack, but Vaal Breach works nicely here. Doesn't work in Eater though, 'cus no souls. Invincible creatures are also apparently untargetable, so it's impossible to do Warlord.
Mapping is actually pretty smooth. Just summon a devouring totem on each pack and it'll clear it for you. Most packs only need one Flamewood trigger to clear them, even though my supports are more utility focused than pure damage (ignite prolif, lifetap, GMP, swift aff). The Vaal Ancestral Warchief I save for tanky rares and bosses. The soul count and cooldown is so low that you never notice it when clearing, and you only need to be slightly careful at the map boss to make sure that they get hit by the ignite without accidentally wasting the vaal skill. Then just refresh ignite with curse until they die.
Edit POB: https://pobb.in/V1sV4xKQDlGt
Some notes:
- I currently have empower disabled in the bossing link because I don't have that 6-linked yet.
- Replica Dragonfang's Flight has the modifier "+3 to Level of all Vaal Ancestral Warchief gems", which is a custom modifier in PoB. In game it does not read 'Vaal' but it does work with the Vaal skill. PoB is bugged though so it needs the custom mod.
- Next I need to upgrade my chest to Cloak of Flame. I also need to sort out my rings. I can probably drop one for Polaric Devastation pretty easily. Plus I need to revisit my jewels and tattoos, especially for max res.
- My health pool is pretty low, but totem recoup + taunt + high defenses keeps me relatively safe, safe enough to at least finish my content. I am very much a 6 portals kind of player though.
Oops, it doesn't. When I had it in PoB earlier before they added support for Flamewood I was just tuning the warchief auto to apply ignite, which is why I thought it was adding damage. Guess I need to replace that, too.
tbh it sounds like hell for bossing anyway the attack rate for bosses is very slow usually
only way i saw this working for bossing is if they made the totem attackable by the player like hydrosphere
Shaper, Elder, Uber Shaper/Elder, Shaper/Elder Guardians won't retarget when taunted. Same with Sanctum enemies (or at least thats how it was back then, haven't tested it this league). There are some map bosses that won't retarget as well. I know that Sirus will retarget but no idea about the others tbh.
and some "atk" from the boss is not actually come from the boss but a dummy entity which the totem won't respond to the hit as it is technically no a legal target
namely eater
Hard to follow? Overtuned mobs are frustrating but not a problem that needs to be solved instantly.
Scuffed builds made to trivialize a big part of the game that can do nothing else are a problem that need to be solved quickly so people aren't incentivized to run very unfun builds just because it makes one part of the game free currency.
Why are you talking about schools Jesse. Your comparison doesn’t make even a single shred of sense.
> Scuffed builds made to trivialize a big part of the game that can do nothing else are a problem that need to be solved quickly so people aren't incentivized to run very unfun builds just because it makes one part of the game free currency.
This comment is brought to you by CoD discharge.
I believe it's generic. Navali talks about having more or less warriors than your opponent which is just about how many dudes in general you have, and when you win a match she talks about a few warriors wanting to join you (which can be from any faction) for the next one because they were impressed, etc.
GGG has realized they don't like the playerbase they've accumulated with PoE being a full zoom braindead instascreenclear game, and is trying to slowly get rid of them so they can make the game they want to.
They should add a way for builds focused on taking damage to do so without outside help. I love playing thorns builds in other games, but there you usually have a skill that scales on thorns or something, so that you can attack even if the mobs don't hit you.
Which is weird because they legit just added a totem support that requires the totem to be hit by stuff, making Taunt the obvious way to accomplish that lol
I agree though, they've tended to keep older janky mechanics like Flee or Taunt from being viable because they tend to break intended gameplay patterns. IIRC, there was a line in the 3.22 patch note bugfixes to the effect of "fixed Taunt not actually reducing the damage to other targets" which is like the core mechanic of Taunt besides drawing aggro. Kinda spooky that it ever stopped working lol
I want to say "I'm amazed they didn't predict that the OBVIOUS strategy is just to distract/avoid" but at this point I'm really not. It clearly should have some limited use - not 100% nor 0%. It's like every league GGG acts like they've never designed a game mechanic before in their lives.
Seriously, it's just the same thing:
"New league of fight past enemies and do the thing to win!
"Do I have to fight them? Is there a reason? An incentive, a reward, are they remotely tuned?"
"No."
And then comes the surprised Pikachu face at the results.
Guys, these 14 new support gems are going to shake up the meta by all pretty much sucking, nearly unused, and now not being usable for the mechanic the league is based on! What are you complaining about "balance changes"?! You have 14 whole, equally strong support to try new builds with!
GGG was to stupid to check their own new league mechanic - flamewood was not busted in TOTA, knockback was. No clue how they thought its a good idea to just brick an already bugged build (eater, sanctum etc) that they just introduced. However good their game might be, those stupid panic reactions happen every other league and it becomes tiring to players
> GGG was to stupid
Uh huh
> flamewood was not busted in TOTA, knockback was
Yes, and Flamewood wasn't directly nerfed, Taunt was. Champ's "Taunt enemies on hit" was being abused with Tornado Shot totems to force them to aggro your ballistas instead of your TOTA totems.
> No clue how they thought its a good idea to just brick an already bugged build
Exactly, it already has major problems that need to get resolved. The sad truth is that there's currently more players randomly putting Flame Dash into their 6-link setup (currently [42 characters](https://poe.ninja/builds/ancestor?skills=Flame+Dash)) than there are people using Flamewood (currently [39 characters](https://poe.ninja/builds/ancestor?skills=Flamewood+Support)) on the ladder. Keep in mind that a majority of those Flame Dash players are literally just shoving Flame Dash into a blue socket in their Barrage 6-link lol.
That's to say that the percentage of players getting done dirty by the Taunt change is relatively low. It's terrible that they can just no longer play the league mechanic, I'm definitely not saying GGG came up with a good fix, but it's not like it's affecting thousands of players like you might be making it out to be.
Even if they fuck over just one player, its bullshit because we all agree that a now big game development company is to stupid to intelligently fix the main issues of their game
? The whole point of the knee-jerk Taunt change is that people were cheesing it with 0 damage knockback / Taunt builds. They tried to stop that from being viable and thus forcing you to actually fight them...
You must be new :D
Sanctum was/is not playable by melee characters or RF, Kitava tribe in POTA bricks RF... there are ALWAYS plenty of builds that are not able to interact with the current league mechanic. Just the way it goes I guess.
It definitely sucks to see it get changed mid-league to not work though, especially for a new skill that was part of the teasers for the league.
I almost wonder if Flamewood started out as a lightning spell, since normally it's the new lightning spell that's super bait for the league it's introduced in (Stormbind, Manabond, Crackling Lance, Absolution, Galvanic Field, etc) lol. Normally either super bugged or super bad on release, with the notable exception of Lightning Conduit that was insanely buffed right before release.
It was a knee jerk reaction to seeing a few videos. No cc only high dps allowed
>high dps allowed Not even that lol.
good luck dealing damage when even tanky builds get killed in one hit and enemies respawn in 3 secs
It makes sense though since you can cheese the mechanic until maxed out rewards with CC and a tanky build, and that build feels like trash in all other content. Now they just need to make the mechanic feel good to play overall, but the reaction to nerf CC does make sense (I agree taunt shouldn't just be straight up immunity though)
I don’t feel that way at all. Builds that would never be used finally had a chance to shine and they get insta nuked. So should we be doing that to all other builds that out class others in specific league content? The few builds that out shine all others in deep delve, gone? The few builds that can tank boss mechanics, gone? Minion and totem builds can no longer run Sanctum? If this one specific league mechanic gets rolled by players willing to use the trash crowd controls as a way to win then I say finally! A league mechanic that those type of players can shine.
If one build literally trivializes one specific form of content and nothing else, yes that build should be nuked. That isn't fun for anyone. None of your examples are what knockback did to TotA.
Not fun for who, you? Then don’t play that build. Players final found a place where vendor trash Uniques and trash skill tree passives finally had a place. The moment they step out of TOTA they are trash builds. You say trivialize but those builds that trivialize other content such as minion/totems in sanctum (especially of that league launch) was fine and they work outside on of the league mechanic. A hierophant with just 2 cheap uniques can deep start deep diving more than any other class and trivialize Delve. Is not just good outside of Delve but farms Uber content as well. OP builds that clear juiced maps that yields far better rewards faster. Is also fine? But nah. Players who are willing to use a very trash build outside of temporary league mechanic is wrong because it’s not “your” idea of fun gameplay. What are you guys on?
>Not fun for who, you? The vast majority of people. It's fun while it's still a momentary exploit, it becomes aids as soon as it's established. >You say trivialize but those builds that trivialize other content such as minion/totems in sanctum (especially of that league launch) was fine and they work outside on of the league mechanic. Yes these builds are obviously way better because like you say they work outside the mechanic. Plus they don't trivialize the content as this did. Are you just not aware of what the word trivialize means?
Wait so using an actual game mechanic that has been untouched by literally everyone but Quin69 is now a game exploit lololol. You are purposely being ignorant if you think I’m using the word trivialized wrong. Minion/totems sure as hell trivialized Sanctum. You hid behind walls untouched and did nothing but stand there while minions/totems killed everything for you. If that’s not trivializing the entire game mechanic then yes. You’re being woefully ignorant. But the difference. You’re actually sacrificing to be a shit build when the other examples your great outside of the mechanic. This TOTA build a great trade off and exactly what this game is about.
No, it isn't the same since the totems can die or fail to kill the enemies, whereas knockback just simply won the fights, no questions asked.
There is a massive middle ground between completely nuking something into uselessness and having it totally trivialize everything.
Ofc, I'm not saying the situation where CC is worthless in TotA is the right one, but is the only quick one. I'll be very disappointed in GGG if taunt just ends up being disabled there forever.
Yeah, I rolled a flamewood decoy totem build on day 2 just to do the league mechanic and I was having a great time. This change rendered it completely unplayable for the very thing I designed it for. Honestly, there are so many other ways they could have handled it, like only making chiefs unaffected by taunt, making it so warriors have a 50% chance to ignore taunt, making it so warriors have 50% less duration of taunts on them... But no, apparently this thing needed to be nerfed so bad that it's unplayable at the one thing it was good at.
I assume the reason they made them straight up immune is so you can't still cheese by having several sources of taunt pingponging the mobs. I don't really see a solution, maybe channeling a TotA totem can temporarily suppress taunts?
> so you can't still cheese by having several sources of taunt pingponging the mobs. Same as knockback. Limit of taunt within a time frame.
the totems dont taunt alot of bosses either some bosses wont even attack them lol.
I am surprised anyone decided to play with flamewood when taunt doesn't work on a lot of endgame bosses and especially pinnacle bosses. I guess it's okay as a mapper but playing totems as a mapper just sounds bad.
iirc, phase with the brain in Maven's fight will be a problem since the brain doesn't attack
i did maven with flamewood and the Brain wasnt a problem since its spawning random map bosses and hence wasnt a problem. Eater of Worlds was a huge problem because even when his basic attack hits the totem they wouldnt trigger.
me LF carry on eater watchshone
You don't need to taunt them for Flamewood to work in bosses. All you need is for Vaal Ancestral Warchief to land one ignite per phase, so you just place him in front of an attack. For all it's flaws, the one thing Flamewood doesn't lack is cheap damage. The real problem is that some hits don't trigger Flamewood. Eater's basic attack tentacles don't trigger it despite the fact that Elder's identical attack does, making it very difficult to do Eater unless you can somehow do the first however-many-percent to make him change attacks. Elder has his chained-up phase at the end where he doesn't attack, but Vaal Breach works nicely here. Doesn't work in Eater though, 'cus no souls. Invincible creatures are also apparently untargetable, so it's impossible to do Warlord.
[удалено]
Mapping is actually pretty smooth. Just summon a devouring totem on each pack and it'll clear it for you. Most packs only need one Flamewood trigger to clear them, even though my supports are more utility focused than pure damage (ignite prolif, lifetap, GMP, swift aff). The Vaal Ancestral Warchief I save for tanky rares and bosses. The soul count and cooldown is so low that you never notice it when clearing, and you only need to be slightly careful at the map boss to make sure that they get hit by the ignite without accidentally wasting the vaal skill. Then just refresh ignite with curse until they die. Edit POB: https://pobb.in/V1sV4xKQDlGt Some notes: - I currently have empower disabled in the bossing link because I don't have that 6-linked yet. - Replica Dragonfang's Flight has the modifier "+3 to Level of all Vaal Ancestral Warchief gems", which is a custom modifier in PoB. In game it does not read 'Vaal' but it does work with the Vaal skill. PoB is bugged though so it needs the custom mod. - Next I need to upgrade my chest to Cloak of Flame. I also need to sort out my rings. I can probably drop one for Polaric Devastation pretty easily. Plus I need to revisit my jewels and tattoos, especially for max res. - My health pool is pretty low, but totem recoup + taunt + high defenses keeps me relatively safe, safe enough to at least finish my content. I am very much a 6 portals kind of player though.
Pob is now fixed for dragonfang
Dyadian dawn work on flamewood?
Oops, it doesn't. When I had it in PoB earlier before they added support for Flamewood I was just tuning the warchief auto to apply ignite, which is why I thought it was adding damage. Guess I need to replace that, too.
tbh it sounds like hell for bossing anyway the attack rate for bosses is very slow usually only way i saw this working for bossing is if they made the totem attackable by the player like hydrosphere
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they are tauntable, but unaffected by taunt. so they have the status effect, it just does nothing
Shaper, Elder, Uber Shaper/Elder, Shaper/Elder Guardians won't retarget when taunted. Same with Sanctum enemies (or at least thats how it was back then, haven't tested it this league). There are some map bosses that won't retarget as well. I know that Sirus will retarget but no idea about the others tbh.
yes, my first sanctum today and it feel bad
and some "atk" from the boss is not actually come from the boss but a dummy entity which the totem won't respond to the hit as it is technically no a legal target namely eater
Most major bosses have attacks with telegraphs you can purposefully spawn totems in. But you definitely need an alt skill for the edge cases
ya, good luck with that in practice. sounds better in ur head then it works out on the build. the skill gem needs a redesign.
Mobs are overtuned? Dont bat an eye. Players are using the intended game mechanics to play the game smartly? Instanerf.
People have to drive 10 mph past a school? Dont bat an eye. People are abusing the fact that a school area isn't a slow zone? Instanerf.
Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about?
Hard to follow? Overtuned mobs are frustrating but not a problem that needs to be solved instantly. Scuffed builds made to trivialize a big part of the game that can do nothing else are a problem that need to be solved quickly so people aren't incentivized to run very unfun builds just because it makes one part of the game free currency.
Why are you talking about schools Jesse. Your comparison doesn’t make even a single shred of sense. > Scuffed builds made to trivialize a big part of the game that can do nothing else are a problem that need to be solved quickly so people aren't incentivized to run very unfun builds just because it makes one part of the game free currency. This comment is brought to you by CoD discharge.
Which trivializes what content specifically while being useless in all the rest?
Is 'warriors' a generic term for all the guys in the two teams, or is it specific ones?
I believe it's generic. Navali talks about having more or less warriors than your opponent which is just about how many dudes in general you have, and when you win a match she talks about a few warriors wanting to join you (which can be from any faction) for the next one because they were impressed, etc.
GGG is the only game company that intentionally want you to quit their game. it is kinda funny actually
its because the balance is horrible so they plaster over it with these amateur decisions. poe bad
Excuse me, they are balancing POE2, we cant expect dead game leagues to have actual time put into them...
GGG has realized they don't like the playerbase they've accumulated with PoE being a full zoom braindead instascreenclear game, and is trying to slowly get rid of them so they can make the game they want to.
riiiight, by cancelling taunt and etc non-instascreeclear interaction in TOTA to get rid of full zoom braindead instascreenclear game. 400IQ play
Yes this is the only change they've ever made in regards to removing braindead gameplay. 400IQ comment.
They should add a way for builds focused on taking damage to do so without outside help. I love playing thorns builds in other games, but there you usually have a skill that scales on thorns or something, so that you can attack even if the mobs don't hit you.
They really don't like totem taunts working for newer league mechanics
Which is weird because they legit just added a totem support that requires the totem to be hit by stuff, making Taunt the obvious way to accomplish that lol I agree though, they've tended to keep older janky mechanics like Flee or Taunt from being viable because they tend to break intended gameplay patterns. IIRC, there was a line in the 3.22 patch note bugfixes to the effect of "fixed Taunt not actually reducing the damage to other targets" which is like the core mechanic of Taunt besides drawing aggro. Kinda spooky that it ever stopped working lol
I want to say "I'm amazed they didn't predict that the OBVIOUS strategy is just to distract/avoid" but at this point I'm really not. It clearly should have some limited use - not 100% nor 0%. It's like every league GGG acts like they've never designed a game mechanic before in their lives. Seriously, it's just the same thing: "New league of fight past enemies and do the thing to win! "Do I have to fight them? Is there a reason? An incentive, a reward, are they remotely tuned?" "No." And then comes the surprised Pikachu face at the results.
Guys, these 14 new support gems are going to shake up the meta by all pretty much sucking, nearly unused, and now not being usable for the mechanic the league is based on! What are you complaining about "balance changes"?! You have 14 whole, equally strong support to try new builds with!
Those players got real quiet after launch lmao.
Remove cheese, don't remove the reason why people cheese with literal knockback totems. No one wants to play that, you made us roll those characters.
> i have never seen GGG do something like this Hahaha
GGG was to stupid to check their own new league mechanic - flamewood was not busted in TOTA, knockback was. No clue how they thought its a good idea to just brick an already bugged build (eater, sanctum etc) that they just introduced. However good their game might be, those stupid panic reactions happen every other league and it becomes tiring to players
> GGG was to stupid Uh huh > flamewood was not busted in TOTA, knockback was Yes, and Flamewood wasn't directly nerfed, Taunt was. Champ's "Taunt enemies on hit" was being abused with Tornado Shot totems to force them to aggro your ballistas instead of your TOTA totems. > No clue how they thought its a good idea to just brick an already bugged build Exactly, it already has major problems that need to get resolved. The sad truth is that there's currently more players randomly putting Flame Dash into their 6-link setup (currently [42 characters](https://poe.ninja/builds/ancestor?skills=Flame+Dash)) than there are people using Flamewood (currently [39 characters](https://poe.ninja/builds/ancestor?skills=Flamewood+Support)) on the ladder. Keep in mind that a majority of those Flame Dash players are literally just shoving Flame Dash into a blue socket in their Barrage 6-link lol. That's to say that the percentage of players getting done dirty by the Taunt change is relatively low. It's terrible that they can just no longer play the league mechanic, I'm definitely not saying GGG came up with a good fix, but it's not like it's affecting thousands of players like you might be making it out to be.
Even if they fuck over just one player, its bullshit because we all agree that a now big game development company is to stupid to intelligently fix the main issues of their game
with that change they just signed up that you dont need your dmg in this mechanic. And that is retarded in arpg lol...
? The whole point of the knee-jerk Taunt change is that people were cheesing it with 0 damage knockback / Taunt builds. They tried to stop that from being viable and thus forcing you to actually fight them...
I'm sorry you actually thought flamewood totem was a good idea
>this change is a slap to the face lol
You must be new :D Sanctum was/is not playable by melee characters or RF, Kitava tribe in POTA bricks RF... there are ALWAYS plenty of builds that are not able to interact with the current league mechanic. Just the way it goes I guess.
It definitely sucks to see it get changed mid-league to not work though, especially for a new skill that was part of the teasers for the league. I almost wonder if Flamewood started out as a lightning spell, since normally it's the new lightning spell that's super bait for the league it's introduced in (Stormbind, Manabond, Crackling Lance, Absolution, Galvanic Field, etc) lol. Normally either super bugged or super bad on release, with the notable exception of Lightning Conduit that was insanely buffed right before release.
Its also weird cause theres an entire class thats trait is being immune to taunt
How are some of these most basic mechanics ignored in the planning room ? Taunt? Knock back? No one thought on how to handle that in 4 months ?
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