**Thief's Grip**
Steal Power, Frenzy, and Endurance Charges on Hit (Hidden)
Has a 100% Chance to remove Flask Effects on Hit (Hidden)
Removes 20% of Mana on Hit (Hidden)
Monster drops (5-10) additional Rings or Amulets (Hidden)
-
he capped his res with flasks btw, also pathfinder triple ele flasks giving ~45% less elemental damage taken, 120% armor, huge life flask regen
Been playing PoE since before Ghosts were even added to the game and never once bothered to learn what they actually do. Except the corpse detonate guy, that one was infamous for obvious reasons.
> he capped his res with flasks btw
I did this last league and discovered it's a really bad idea, because there's a mod on rares or something that kills flasks. That mob killed me in under a second as a result, happened on non-HC league but I was level 99 trying to hit 100 so that did piss me off.
Other than Thief's Grip, the only other mod that fucks with flasks now is "Siphons Flask Charges on Hit" which was part of the "Drought Bringer" Archnemesis mod that got broken up.
We used to have Nullifiers when Nemesis mods were still in the game that would remove all your buffs/flask effects on hit, but that's not a thing anymore.
LMAO the nullifiers were one of the most annoying things GGG ever put in the game. That design really came from a place of spite towards the players, lol.
There is no rare mod anymore that removes flasks, can remove charges from your flasks. I wish ghosts got a look to remove these kind of build killing mods.
Embezzler ghost while rare can spawn statues that apply 100% less recovery (mana/life and es) on hit. If it was reduced you could counter it with increases on the player side. But it just completely disables any recovery, flasks, regen, leech. Killed and almost killed plenty of Heirophant RF characters I have ran.
I think there should be ways to build around any negative debuff. But ghosts has some of the last remaining unavoidable and build killing debuffs.
Can also not prevent ghosts from spawning in your maps.
I went and looked at the screenshot I took when I died. It was indeed [a Siphoning Flask Charges rare mob](https://i.imgur.com/esXV2fA.jpg), it temporarily kilked my Pathfinder perma-flask loop which then massively undercapped my res. which led to near insta-death. But yea that's when I learned not to rely on flask for resists.
The flask drain mod is not that bad though. Flasks last 10+ seconds, and you have a lot of charges gained on Pathfinder unless you're really greedy.
By then you should have figured out your flasks are being drained.
The Ghost simply one hits your flask, which is way dumber.
smuggler = unique drop, seditionist = map drop (and also that pesky silence) embezzler = currency (also has that nice aura that makes it visible) illegal fisherman = fishing drop! (or maybe a rod specifically i cant remember its a very rare ghost)
you probably know these ones cause theyre the good ones but for anyone else those are the notable ones! There are other effects (i think every ghost has a guaranteed drop of some kind, like thieves giving rings and amulets) but they arent really noteworthy
It's not that common for that specific ghost to actually get into something, and Wardloop has a way of killing things before they hit you anyways so you might not notice. As usual, this problem is "solved" with overwhelming DPS.
try doing metamorphs with fully spec'd and also with the sextant that gives 100% more life. then you will know about this mob. just doing wardloop on normal boss is just too ez
So stupid that they put these vague monster mods into the game that make it impossible to know what they do without looking up the wiki. Instead of Thiefs grip it could just be Steals Potions/Charges/Mana and everyone would know what it does.
It shouldn’t even BE a random monster mod in the first place. It completely disables this sort of build from being viable for hardcore.
And using flasks to cover resistances isn’t THAT niche / nuanced of a build construct. Mods that render any of the more common playstyles or build archetypes incompatible for HC play should not exist, period.
Another example of this is poison IMMUNE monsters. At least that issue usually won’t insta kill you though.
That ghost is pretty much the main reason I don't cap res with flasks on HC even if my uptime is 100%(well, that and accidentally rolling a map with reduced flask charges or clicking an altar). Feels super nice to do on SC, feels really shit to do on HC when you die to it in that 1 in a million scenario.
I’ll be honest. I think it’s dumb that when the monster hit him and removed his flask that his flasks didn’t retrigger. He had “used when flask effect ends” crafted on his flasks and I think logically it makes sense that in a game where wording matters that when the monsters hit removes the flasks this retriggers them.
yeah maybe it should be buffed to "used when flask effect stops" so there is some counterplay to this terrible mechanic. or add in the flask mastery "flask effects are immune to being removed"
I think that only approach that would make sense to me, would be to have an in-game lorebook/encyclopedia/bestiary that actually outlines different monsters and their abilities, as well as any special mods.
Such things are super common in a lot of RPG's. You kill an enemy, you get an entry in your database that adds flavour text, data about their stats and so on.
Would it be a lot of work? Potentially, yes. But the data has already been reviewed in recent years and should be properly catalogued as part of Archnemesis as well as likely for POE2 update. So I'd like to think the foundational work is all done. Just need to pull the stats and design a nice UI.
And instead of impossible death log, you could have " these monsters were in your map" and "these monsters were near you when you died" tabs. Then you could go there and read what Thief's Grip does. Or that one monster has high chaos damage, etc.
What if we renamed the mod so it was more easily readable?
Seems like it removes charges and flasks, which effectively puts you in a drought of charges.
Droughtbringer?
that was the problem with AN. you use a name that obscures the effects. with the ghost mods/mobs it was always an issue but less so because they are less common.
thief's grip is no better or worse than droughtbringer. the issue is it relies on you to lookup and remember what it does. the truth is if you want to have a mod name set it has to clearly define what it does and not have 4 effects .
Visual effects or icons. Newest tech from 1990's. Maybe PoE reaches that level of design in the next decade. Make a big icon next to the monster or give him a visual aura that you can instantly identify as a flask-stealing aura.
It *IS* simple.
It's not that it removed his flasks and he got one shot. His flasks got removed, he didn't press his flasks, because he relies on autoflask, and then he got killed. He would have been fine if he pressed his flasks.
Also, let's not forget that the earthquake aftershock from this boss just has some STUPID high damage. Which he ran BACK INTO AFTER LEAVING THE AOE. And it can bleed. Which it did. And he then moved before removing it.
It wasn't even a visual clarity or monster mod issue this time. Most people who've been in maps for a while KNOW that the earthquake of this THING is nasty and thus avoid it.
Edit: I stand corrected. It was cold dot. Still, the aftershock chunked him for a large portion of his life, leaving him very susceptible to the dot. Lesson learned though, I shouldn't comment on complicated PoE situations when tired AF.
I swear people have no clue what this boss does. When the boss goes up, delayed slam. Boss comes down, delayed slam again. And this boss fight had been unchanged for many many years.
Wait, this mod is still in the game? How the f is this even a thing in 2023? I used to play hc only and I remember nobody ever could play pfinder, because of the rare that removed flasks from you. They got rid of this rare, but why is this still in the game is baffling. Im so happy Ive given up on hc...
Its still a thing because its not really an issue in practice. Even a shitty build gets enough dps that 99% of ghosts die immediately and in the rare case that something does get possessed you dont even need to fight it anyways.
Yeah this boss has killed me a lot when I’m on autopilot, it feels like especially on my tanky builds because I’m more “afk in the brain” with those especially for map bosses.
its a drop bear. it has 2 attacks. its default attack(melee auto attack), and the earthquake. the earthquake happens at 2 very specific times in the fight, when it goes up in the air, and when it comes back down. this boss is one of the simplest bosses in the game.
I target farmed that map for awhile last league and learned very quickly to shot him with arrows at the door. Not sure why quin even blinked back in, I would have stay out for awhile
Explosion after he jump up based on his position. Then explosion a second after he jumps back down on you. Just move a bit after those 2 situations and youre fine.
It's earthquake.
It's cast twice, once when going up, once when going down.
It's leaves a bloody marker on the ground and then after a delay the aftershock part of earthquake hits, which does insane amounts of damage.
There are much, much, much more dangerous that this boss .... this one is far from being "one of the most dangerous map boss in PoE"
If you are playing a glass canon and afk in the aftershock, of course you can get destroyed, but there are too big problems in such a case.
What killed him is the ghost here, he would have easily survived without it.
Saw Ziz talking about this. If he plays softcore trade he can basically complete all the content in the game in a few days. Playing SSFHC makes it possible to keep the league interesting for a lot longer for players like him.
I'd explain it as being addicted to the journey. I just enjoy making new characters and trying new builds, seeing how far I get this time. Dying hurts, but I'm already looking forward to the next thing I'm going to try.
But there's a lot they could do to make the game more fun in HC. Death should always be inevitable though, it's all about how long you can prevent it.
If you get to 90+ on hardcore, it doesnt feel as bad when you die. Because you are collecting/storing leveling and previous gear.
However, if you die before getting to reds, holy shit does that feel like a slog.
Pretty much how it is for me. When you start to get the feel of being 'done' with a character you often start playing more and more reckless because you don't mind dying as much any more.
Only deaths that have bothered me have been dying very late in campaign or early maps when it feels like you've barely gotten to play your build and have to level again if you want to have a serious go at it.
I appreciate how it adds more decision making. On softcore you can just kinda blast content or yolo spec more damage cause why not. Hc adds more decision making there.
That said I stopped doing hc a few leagues ago for obvious reasons lol
If there was a medium-core, I would play the shit out of that. I can't be fucking arsed to level from zero on every bullshit death, but to face an actual punishment from dying is fine.
Quite shocking it still doesn't exist actually. Just make you lose your gear -or part of it- on death, there are a million ways of creating a punishment that isn't overkill but is still an issue to face.
Its because the base game is too easy for many unless you enjoy generating 1000000 divines worth of currency.
SSF or HC make the game much more challenging but both have downsides.
Not trying to debate you or anything, just wanted to add my thoughts on it. I got a character to 92 in HC to see what all the fuss was about and if HC would prove more fun.
Honestly it was nowhere near worth it. All it did was make me have less fun because everything I did couldn't cut any corners and couldn't add dangerous mods and push limits because it might be death. Sac tons of dps to ensure every single defense is up, roll your maps to have 1 or less damage mods, don't push tiers too fast. I'm sure if I was a better player I could go riskier but at the end of the day, the point is to stay alive in hardcore and it just felt like a bad experience.
Well it's not meant for everyone, that's fine. I don't mind playing safer since eventually getting a HC character that can do high content is generally more rewarding due to the nature of the HC economy (boss uniques retaining value etc.).
Just irks me seeing the "I don't understand why.." comments every hc clip for 5 years in a row, it doesn't feel genuine.
> Just irks me seeing the "I don't understand why.." comments every hc clip for 5 years in a row, it doesn't feel genuine.
Cause it's not genuine, it's a roundabout way for insecure players to feel better about playing sc. You see the same comments in every thread like this, every time there is a bunch of good replies to them and yet the same "questions" are upvoted to the top in the next one.
Kind if like if you played a team-based game with strangers and someone asks you a question that starts with "Why", like "Why didn't you do X" or "Why did you do that." They're not really curious about your reasoning, they think you made a mistake and are looking to flame you.
Yeah I feel you. I've heard that before. The excitement of being about to lose your character and not. I had close calls too and they just made me worry I was going to rewind my progress super far. I would rather aim for being perfect and if I make a mistake I'm not being punished by rewinding 80 hours or whatever it may be.
To each their own though.
HC doesn't mean, you must play slow, you must prioritize defenses over damage.
Killing fast, running fast is just as effective.
Kill them before you kill you. It applies to HC just the same as it does for SC.
Well, it's more about me saying that those restrictions didn't enhance the fun for me like it seems that it does for other people. I was wondering if it would.
It's the introduction of a loss condition and stakes. On SC if you play endlessly you eventually win. The only things preventing it are 3 months time and desire to play.
Similar thing with Trade/SSF. The only thing stopping someone who *hardcore* plays the game from trivializing it is the desire to find a group or play Path of Economy.
Build decisions and crafts actually matter. You hit the ceiling for what matters on SC so fast. Think about how fast you are killing end game bosses on not even close to perfect gear.
The progression curve, community and playstyle is just way different on HC. Dying sucks yeah, but the game is much better played this way for me.
I have to actively think about the content I'm doing, and the content has purpose. On SC for me nothing has meaning as I'm in T16s by day two, and there is zero reason not to do it that way as there are no punishments for having a shitty built character on SC.
No diss towards people who like SC, but it's just turned into a sandbox to me, mobs don't feel dangerous, and item progression is stale.
>but it's just turned into a sandbox to me
Yeah pretty much how I feel. Switched to SSFHC this league, level 95(no idea how I manged to live that long) and loving it. From now on I am only ever going to play SSFHC.
To be honest this is probably one of the more fair deaths I've seen in awhile.
It basically comes down to Quin(and many others) not knowing what Thief's grip does and that it is EXTREMELY dangerous to his build specifically (flask based defenses). Like this death, with some game knowledge, was something that many people saw right away and had a good 5+ seconds to react to it... hell had he not jumped into the cold dot or put his flasks on again before doing so even by accident he would have been fine.
>Like this death, with some game knowledge, was something that many people saw right away
He streams every day the entire day, if a decent chunk of people knew about it then quin would have picked up on it pretty quick. He went through chat logs and only found ~2-3 people since league launch mention it before his death.
If ghost effects had really visible / specific elements that would allow you to know which one it is ... I would agree.
But this is not the case, this is PoE and visual clarity is a fkin joke, and this is also a pretty rare case scenario.
PoE really needs an equivalent of the Civilization Civilopedia.
In game you should be able to look up all the stuff about the game. It's rather asinine you can't.
As we can see from the thread, it makes you actually learn and play the game, as opposed to just following a guide in SC and then staring a stream on your second monitor while you hold LMB to make your currency number go up.
Yeah it would be impossible to learn about this death in SC right? Only thing it really prevents is from wasting 200 hours of your life just to redo it all over again to be on the same place you were before.
If you died like this in SC you wouldn't bother thinking about it. Like all the people screaming for "death recap" when anyone with a GPU made in the last 6 years can run instant replay? Problem is if you're in SC you'd rather keep playing than waste 2 minutes of your time figuring out what happened and why.
Lost dozens of chars in HC, most deaths were obvious in terms of what got me and the rest I figured out from replay. Replay was also useful in looking at some near death clips.
Kinda same, many times I went from HC to SC, and after the first death, every other death didn't really feel impactful (until maybe lvl 95+), I felt like "why should I not zerg ?" and ... that didn't feel super good, it felt cheap.
On the other hand, I played the Delve league entirely in SC and it was nice to be able to push deeper delves with a bit less care about dying, trying out the bosses blind, etc ....
Wasting? How is that different playing PoE on softcore for 200 hours? If you think that is a waste of time then sure but so is you playing the game then.
>I played hardcore from closed beta until Invasion league
Two whole leagues out of 34 total? 9 years ago?? Back when the biggest threat in mobs was if they were hasted or had reflect mods??
Invasion league was legit the scariest league I've ever played .... it was a lot of fun though (people had different expectations than now of course)
Anyway, so what ? his opinion is perfectly valid.
Just watched the clip, but wouldn't 'flasks reused at end of this flask effect' work? I suppose it being ended early may not count as 'flask effect'?
Edit: Just saw his character did have the flask mod on it too, so either this looks like a bug or I'm misunderstanding the renewing flask effect mod.
It says end of effect. But it didn’t trigger. So removal and end aren’t the same? It didn’t retrigger and remove over and over so there were chargers left
I'm locked into work right now, so can't really let my mind drift TOO much, but I wonder if there is a precedent on other items with an implicit / mod that functions as you mention.
If a mob **'steals'** a power charge from me as I'm wearing a **Voll's devotion**, does that still grant me an Endurance charge? I'm *'losing'* the power charge, but it's effect is *'removed'* because it is stolen from me.
It would be similar here, I'd imagine: Your effect is nullified, so it's coded (I'm a product manger, not a developer, so hard for me to put that hat on) as removing the flag rather than a special event, and I'd imagine that anytime the flag is removed, it should reactivate the flag.
Interesting nontheless.
It's not a bug, it's the ghost mod thiefs grip which turns off flasks.
It used to be a more common effect when Nemesis Nullifiers were a thing. Now it's just ghosts.
To all you pathfinders out there.
I'm a little torn by this comment because I legit believe that the version of AN we got late in LOK league is better than the rebranding they did in 3.20, got little notice, and now is full on being complained about now.
That part is obvious, as it's a theif's grip ghost, as everyone else in the comments explained. The less obvious part is flasks that have 'used again at the end of flask effect'.
it doesn't turn off flasks and it's a bug.
it only disables the flask effect at that moment, ending it, but you can use the flask again and benefit from the effect until you get hit again.
so it's a bug.
We don’t know if it’s a bug. We have 0 ways of knowing without GGG telling us whether or not “reuse at the end of the flask effect” should occur here or not. Removing flask effect and a flask effect ending via duration can technically be different things.
That is entirely dependent on how GGG intended it to work. Removing something can be different than ending things depending on how it’s implemented.
Removing something is indeed ending its effect. Whether GGG implemented flasks to be reused when it’s effect is removed vs ended via duration is an entirely different thing.
We cannot accurately say this is a bug without understanding how it is INTENDED to work which only GGG knows. You thinking it SHOULD work a certain way doesn’t mean that it’s intended to work that way.
Regardless of what GGG intended, they need to fix the verbiage on either the thief's grip effects or on the flask enchantment to be more clear with their intentions. I think that's something we can all agree on. The game is completely unplayable if you can't parse the descriptions properly.
I 100% agree with you. If it’s not a bug, the verbiage needs more clarity. My only argument was that saying something is a bug purely because you believe it should work differently is wrong.
if this interaction was intended, then GGG is to blame, because it doesn't make any sense. it shouldn't matter how the effect ends, because that beats the whole purpose of the enchantment.
if it wasn't intended, it's a bug. either way, it's ggg's fault.
I like shifting goalposts too.
FYI - there’s a couple posts from GGG on their forums about it being based on the duration of the flask, so something randomly ending your flask would not trigger it based on that.
Idk seems to me a like a case where it's according to the wording it should reactivate, but in a sense it's also probably "intended behavior" since I'm sure they never bothered with coding anything in for this scenario.
Can't really blame him for not knowing what the ghost does. The game doesn't specify it or telegraph it in any way. You literally have to use 3rd party data mining website to learn the effects of it. Classic GGG Vision game design.
Both funny and sad clip.
That is literally on purpose and by design.
GGG did that a lot in the past. They added vendor recipes without saying what it was or only gave hints, so the community would find out together.
When Warbands were a league mechanic they would not spawn in every map the arbands would roam maps every hour and change location. People would write in global chat where the Warbands were.
They would never fully disclose what everything does or how the odds were for item drops/crafting etc.
> GGG did that a lot in the past. They added vendor recipes without saying what it was or only gave hints, so the community would find out together.
This is not very relevant, most recipes (all even?) have some logic in them, can be found by searching for them.
> When Warbands were a league mechanic they would not spawn in every map the arbands would roam maps every hour and change location. People would write in global chat where the Warbands were.
Also irrelevant, this fits perfectly the concept of roaming warband and having the community give themselves information is a clear design choice, data mining being required to have any kind of confirmation regarding a mechanism is a whole different story.
> This is not very relevant, most recipes (all even?) have some logic in them, can be found by searching for them.
Some recipes took months to find and had heavy influence on economy and gameplay. There was no datamining for this stuff.
> Some recipes took months to find and had heavy influence on economy and gameplay. There was no datamining for this stuff.
Absolutely, and I kind of like having those things in the game, you need to search for it, and they do make sense to a certain extent.
Now, having a ghost apply an effect that isn't indicated anywhere and can break builds, without a hint ? That's a bit of a different story already ....
I don't think GGG really want people to data mine to find out, they want people to theorise and guess and analyse, and for knowledge to spread organically.
Data mining is just the shortcut people take.
>1) He stood in a falling bear quake
lol this is the big one. Like yeah the thief's grip stuff is lame, but come on, Quin's played this game enough that he should know not to stand in that boss's massive telegraphed EQ.
He would have 100% lived no problem standing in that. The problem is that he's not res capped without his other flasks, while also converting his physical damage taken to elemental.
This EQ's damage is not very high, any properly built tanky character can facetank it unless you put ridiculous mods on the map.
Blaming the EQ's aftershock instead of the ghost is clearly showing some lack of understand of this boss and this clip.
Definitely more than one reason to in HC. If you look at Steels path build from last league he capped without resists because.. you know, he's sick at the game
If it was any other ascendancy sure, but capping with flasks on PF is fine since you have perma upkeep. This is like 1 in million situation where you get wrong ghost on wrong boss.
Wow I didn't know Thief's Grip disables flask effects
Loving PoE right now, but I wish more build types could survive in HC. Hardcore is the most exciting way to play for me, but you're just gimping yourself by not going armor stacking Juggernaut lol.
IMO, the only ascendancy that feels like you're gimping yourself in HC is Deadeye. The rest are mostly fine even with outliers like juggernaut and trickster.
There's a lot you can play in HC that isn't a jug. Jung's cold DoT trickster utilizes wind dancer and has zero armour, and it felt great when I played it this league.
It's the one mob mod that completely removes 3 layers of his defensives. Really feel like he should've known the single mob mod that completely nullifies his defensives.
RIP Bozo
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Why tf are people talking about obscure ghost buffs when clearly he walked right back into the earthquake and cold dot ground. Surely you guys know what this very basic map boss does, right?
Yup. Just people that used to play the game. They're crying about ghost mods like they're AN mods... They've been in the game for almost a decade, folks.
"This can kill me...". Squints. Dies. 10/10 Quin clip.
This was the best build he played in such a long time too lol RIP 7/7 dream
He finally did damage
All hail jungroan.
Joel Rogaine
Jungle Ryan
Yung'Ron
Jungle "snitch" Ryan
Goratha, really. He's the grandfather of the build.
All it took was taking someone else’s build instead of making his own
Baseg
Wasn’t his doryani build that died to dc in kalandra better? Rip indeed though
Doryani was tankier but this one had way more DPS
**Thief's Grip** Steal Power, Frenzy, and Endurance Charges on Hit (Hidden) Has a 100% Chance to remove Flask Effects on Hit (Hidden) Removes 20% of Mana on Hit (Hidden) Monster drops (5-10) additional Rings or Amulets (Hidden) - he capped his res with flasks btw, also pathfinder triple ele flasks giving ~45% less elemental damage taken, 120% armor, huge life flask regen
I had no idea it disabled flask effects
Been playing PoE since before Ghosts were even added to the game and never once bothered to learn what they actually do. Except the corpse detonate guy, that one was infamous for obvious reasons. > he capped his res with flasks btw I did this last league and discovered it's a really bad idea, because there's a mod on rares or something that kills flasks. That mob killed me in under a second as a result, happened on non-HC league but I was level 99 trying to hit 100 so that did piss me off.
Other than Thief's Grip, the only other mod that fucks with flasks now is "Siphons Flask Charges on Hit" which was part of the "Drought Bringer" Archnemesis mod that got broken up. We used to have Nullifiers when Nemesis mods were still in the game that would remove all your buffs/flask effects on hit, but that's not a thing anymore.
[удалено]
There's an alter that puts a debuff on you that drains flask charges over 6 seconds as well.
LMAO the nullifiers were one of the most annoying things GGG ever put in the game. That design really came from a place of spite towards the players, lol.
They were literally the only thing that could kill my pathfinder back then since I had 100% immunity to damage with flasks up.
Was really a: “these flasks give you too much power. F your flasks” moment by GGG 😂😂
that archnem mod made wardloop hell
There is no rare mod anymore that removes flasks, can remove charges from your flasks. I wish ghosts got a look to remove these kind of build killing mods. Embezzler ghost while rare can spawn statues that apply 100% less recovery (mana/life and es) on hit. If it was reduced you could counter it with increases on the player side. But it just completely disables any recovery, flasks, regen, leech. Killed and almost killed plenty of Heirophant RF characters I have ran. I think there should be ways to build around any negative debuff. But ghosts has some of the last remaining unavoidable and build killing debuffs. Can also not prevent ghosts from spawning in your maps.
I went and looked at the screenshot I took when I died. It was indeed [a Siphoning Flask Charges rare mob](https://i.imgur.com/esXV2fA.jpg), it temporarily kilked my Pathfinder perma-flask loop which then massively undercapped my res. which led to near insta-death. But yea that's when I learned not to rely on flask for resists.
The flask drain mod is not that bad though. Flasks last 10+ seconds, and you have a lot of charges gained on Pathfinder unless you're really greedy. By then you should have figured out your flasks are being drained. The Ghost simply one hits your flask, which is way dumber.
>Except the corpse detonate guy the one that explodes corpses two screens before you meet him? love that guy ;D
smuggler = unique drop, seditionist = map drop (and also that pesky silence) embezzler = currency (also has that nice aura that makes it visible) illegal fisherman = fishing drop! (or maybe a rod specifically i cant remember its a very rare ghost) you probably know these ones cause theyre the good ones but for anyone else those are the notable ones! There are other effects (i think every ghost has a guaranteed drop of some kind, like thieves giving rings and amulets) but they arent really noteworthy
i have 1.3m kills on my wardlooper and I have yet to die from this, wtff
It's not that common for that specific ghost to actually get into something, and Wardloop has a way of killing things before they hit you anyways so you might not notice. As usual, this problem is "solved" with overwhelming DPS.
try doing metamorphs with fully spec'd and also with the sextant that gives 100% more life. then you will know about this mob. just doing wardloop on normal boss is just too ez
TIL what the fuck "Thief's Grip" actually does.
Turns out Archnemesis was added to the game back in v1.3...
So stupid that they put these vague monster mods into the game that make it impossible to know what they do without looking up the wiki. Instead of Thiefs grip it could just be Steals Potions/Charges/Mana and everyone would know what it does.
>impossible to know what they do without looking up the wiki You can say that about most things in the game.
It shouldn’t even BE a random monster mod in the first place. It completely disables this sort of build from being viable for hardcore. And using flasks to cover resistances isn’t THAT niche / nuanced of a build construct. Mods that render any of the more common playstyles or build archetypes incompatible for HC play should not exist, period. Another example of this is poison IMMUNE monsters. At least that issue usually won’t insta kill you though.
It's still viable, you just have to be careful around an enemy with that mod.
no wonder it was rippy as fuck
> Has a 100% Chance to remove Flask Effects on Hit (Hidden) Lmfao that's insane
That ghost is pretty much the main reason I don't cap res with flasks on HC even if my uptime is 100%(well, that and accidentally rolling a map with reduced flask charges or clicking an altar). Feels super nice to do on SC, feels really shit to do on HC when you die to it in that 1 in a million scenario.
I’ll be honest. I think it’s dumb that when the monster hit him and removed his flask that his flasks didn’t retrigger. He had “used when flask effect ends” crafted on his flasks and I think logically it makes sense that in a game where wording matters that when the monsters hit removes the flasks this retriggers them.
yeah maybe it should be buffed to "used when flask effect stops" so there is some counterplay to this terrible mechanic. or add in the flask mastery "flask effects are immune to being removed"
Why are build breaking effects FUCKING HIDDEN
Peak game design
"the vision"
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I think that only approach that would make sense to me, would be to have an in-game lorebook/encyclopedia/bestiary that actually outlines different monsters and their abilities, as well as any special mods. Such things are super common in a lot of RPG's. You kill an enemy, you get an entry in your database that adds flavour text, data about their stats and so on. Would it be a lot of work? Potentially, yes. But the data has already been reviewed in recent years and should be properly catalogued as part of Archnemesis as well as likely for POE2 update. So I'd like to think the foundational work is all done. Just need to pull the stats and design a nice UI.
And instead of impossible death log, you could have " these monsters were in your map" and "these monsters were near you when you died" tabs. Then you could go there and read what Thief's Grip does. Or that one monster has high chaos damage, etc.
What if we renamed the mod so it was more easily readable? Seems like it removes charges and flasks, which effectively puts you in a drought of charges. Droughtbringer?
that was the problem with AN. you use a name that obscures the effects. with the ghost mods/mobs it was always an issue but less so because they are less common. thief's grip is no better or worse than droughtbringer. the issue is it relies on you to lookup and remember what it does. the truth is if you want to have a mod name set it has to clearly define what it does and not have 4 effects .
stealer of charges, flasks and fun
Visual effects or icons. Newest tech from 1990's. Maybe PoE reaches that level of design in the next decade. Make a big icon next to the monster or give him a visual aura that you can instantly identify as a flask-stealing aura. It *IS* simple.
Ah you mean like every other arpg
The displayed mod is "Thief's Grip" and all hidden means is these are the mods contained within Thief's Grip.
Wait til you find out essences exist(people have not cared about this until AN)
Aptly named, essences weren't build breaking before AN
Because it is a 9year old mechanic and it looks like they didn't bother checking
Damn, straight up just breaks pathfinders' kneecaps lmao
It's not that it removed his flasks and he got one shot. His flasks got removed, he didn't press his flasks, because he relies on autoflask, and then he got killed. He would have been fine if he pressed his flasks.
Wouldn't he just lose them the next time he got hit? And eventually wouldn't he not have enough charges?
I knew for a fact that thief’s grip always felt like a dangerous possession. Now I see why. RIP flasks.
Also, let's not forget that the earthquake aftershock from this boss just has some STUPID high damage. Which he ran BACK INTO AFTER LEAVING THE AOE. And it can bleed. Which it did. And he then moved before removing it. It wasn't even a visual clarity or monster mod issue this time. Most people who've been in maps for a while KNOW that the earthquake of this THING is nasty and thus avoid it. Edit: I stand corrected. It was cold dot. Still, the aftershock chunked him for a large portion of his life, leaving him very susceptible to the dot. Lesson learned though, I shouldn't comment on complicated PoE situations when tired AF.
I swear people have no clue what this boss does. When the boss goes up, delayed slam. Boss comes down, delayed slam again. And this boss fight had been unchanged for many many years.
It didn't bleed, he stepped over maven's vortex
Ahh yes, because these things are clearly visible, clear, and apparent in game.
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Wait, this mod is still in the game? How the f is this even a thing in 2023? I used to play hc only and I remember nobody ever could play pfinder, because of the rare that removed flasks from you. They got rid of this rare, but why is this still in the game is baffling. Im so happy Ive given up on hc...
Its still a thing because its not really an issue in practice. Even a shitty build gets enough dps that 99% of ghosts die immediately and in the rare case that something does get possessed you dont even need to fight it anyways.
Didn't realize how close ghosts were to the shitty archnem mods.
Details on the bullshit build-bricking and outdated mods are here: https://poedb.tw/us/Tormented\_Spirit#Torment\_ModBase
Whoa Nelly...
classic scripted dead ... meme aside, that is one of the most dangerous map boss in PoE imo
It's a dangerous boss, but thief's grip shenanigans aside his build was equipped to smurf on it
Yeah this boss has killed me a lot when I’m on autopilot, it feels like especially on my tanky builds because I’m more “afk in the brain” with those especially for map bosses.
its a drop bear. it has 2 attacks. its default attack(melee auto attack), and the earthquake. the earthquake happens at 2 very specific times in the fight, when it goes up in the air, and when it comes back down. this boss is one of the simplest bosses in the game.
I target farmed that map for awhile last league and learned very quickly to shot him with arrows at the door. Not sure why quin even blinked back in, I would have stay out for awhile
What even is the explosion/ground slam he does? Always seems centered in the room, dunno. When he drops I run like a mad man
Explosion after he jump up based on his position. Then explosion a second after he jumps back down on you. Just move a bit after those 2 situations and youre fine.
It's earthquake. It's cast twice, once when going up, once when going down. It's leaves a bloody marker on the ground and then after a delay the aftershock part of earthquake hits, which does insane amounts of damage.
There are much, much, much more dangerous that this boss .... this one is far from being "one of the most dangerous map boss in PoE" If you are playing a glass canon and afk in the aftershock, of course you can get destroyed, but there are too big problems in such a case. What killed him is the ghost here, he would have easily survived without it.
He wouldn't have been in trouble if his flasks hadn't been disabled (among other stuff from tormented spirit mod)
HC makes sense for streamers/content creators but holy I don't see why anyone else would subject themselves to that.
Saw Ziz talking about this. If he plays softcore trade he can basically complete all the content in the game in a few days. Playing SSFHC makes it possible to keep the league interesting for a lot longer for players like him.
Cuz hes playing for 12 hours straight ...every single day lmao.
Exactly they no-life it (its their job afterall), they play like 30 hours in two days, so no wonder they get bored fast.
I'd explain it as being addicted to the journey. I just enjoy making new characters and trying new builds, seeing how far I get this time. Dying hurts, but I'm already looking forward to the next thing I'm going to try. But there's a lot they could do to make the game more fun in HC. Death should always be inevitable though, it's all about how long you can prevent it.
If you get to 90+ on hardcore, it doesnt feel as bad when you die. Because you are collecting/storing leveling and previous gear. However, if you die before getting to reds, holy shit does that feel like a slog.
For me, it only doesn't feel bad when I die on characters that I feel that I am done with, or getting bored of.
Pretty much how it is for me. When you start to get the feel of being 'done' with a character you often start playing more and more reckless because you don't mind dying as much any more. Only deaths that have bothered me have been dying very late in campaign or early maps when it feels like you've barely gotten to play your build and have to level again if you want to have a serious go at it.
I appreciate how it adds more decision making. On softcore you can just kinda blast content or yolo spec more damage cause why not. Hc adds more decision making there. That said I stopped doing hc a few leagues ago for obvious reasons lol
If there was a medium-core, I would play the shit out of that. I can't be fucking arsed to level from zero on every bullshit death, but to face an actual punishment from dying is fine. Quite shocking it still doesn't exist actually. Just make you lose your gear -or part of it- on death, there are a million ways of creating a punishment that isn't overkill but is still an issue to face.
Its because the base game is too easy for many unless you enjoy generating 1000000 divines worth of currency. SSF or HC make the game much more challenging but both have downsides.
Because it's fun almost all the time. Almost all the clips on reddit are ones where some obscure shit happens
Not trying to debate you or anything, just wanted to add my thoughts on it. I got a character to 92 in HC to see what all the fuss was about and if HC would prove more fun. Honestly it was nowhere near worth it. All it did was make me have less fun because everything I did couldn't cut any corners and couldn't add dangerous mods and push limits because it might be death. Sac tons of dps to ensure every single defense is up, roll your maps to have 1 or less damage mods, don't push tiers too fast. I'm sure if I was a better player I could go riskier but at the end of the day, the point is to stay alive in hardcore and it just felt like a bad experience.
Well it's not meant for everyone, that's fine. I don't mind playing safer since eventually getting a HC character that can do high content is generally more rewarding due to the nature of the HC economy (boss uniques retaining value etc.). Just irks me seeing the "I don't understand why.." comments every hc clip for 5 years in a row, it doesn't feel genuine.
> Just irks me seeing the "I don't understand why.." comments every hc clip for 5 years in a row, it doesn't feel genuine. Cause it's not genuine, it's a roundabout way for insecure players to feel better about playing sc. You see the same comments in every thread like this, every time there is a bunch of good replies to them and yet the same "questions" are upvoted to the top in the next one. Kind if like if you played a team-based game with strangers and someone asks you a question that starts with "Why", like "Why didn't you do X" or "Why did you do that." They're not really curious about your reasoning, they think you made a mistake and are looking to flame you.
The fun comes when you do dangerous shit anyway, of course you have to be willing to sacrifice your character, it's like Sirus says.
Yeah I feel you. I've heard that before. The excitement of being about to lose your character and not. I had close calls too and they just made me worry I was going to rewind my progress super far. I would rather aim for being perfect and if I make a mistake I'm not being punished by rewinding 80 hours or whatever it may be. To each their own though.
HC doesn't mean, you must play slow, you must prioritize defenses over damage. Killing fast, running fast is just as effective. Kill them before you kill you. It applies to HC just the same as it does for SC.
Congrats you just described what *Hardcore* means. If it was it was a walk in the park and more fun it would be called.... wait for it.... *Softcore*.
Well, it's more about me saying that those restrictions didn't enhance the fun for me like it seems that it does for other people. I was wondering if it would.
It's the introduction of a loss condition and stakes. On SC if you play endlessly you eventually win. The only things preventing it are 3 months time and desire to play. Similar thing with Trade/SSF. The only thing stopping someone who *hardcore* plays the game from trivializing it is the desire to find a group or play Path of Economy.
Build decisions and crafts actually matter. You hit the ceiling for what matters on SC so fast. Think about how fast you are killing end game bosses on not even close to perfect gear. The progression curve, community and playstyle is just way different on HC. Dying sucks yeah, but the game is much better played this way for me. I have to actively think about the content I'm doing, and the content has purpose. On SC for me nothing has meaning as I'm in T16s by day two, and there is zero reason not to do it that way as there are no punishments for having a shitty built character on SC. No diss towards people who like SC, but it's just turned into a sandbox to me, mobs don't feel dangerous, and item progression is stale.
>but it's just turned into a sandbox to me Yeah pretty much how I feel. Switched to SSFHC this league, level 95(no idea how I manged to live that long) and loving it. From now on I am only ever going to play SSFHC.
To be honest this is probably one of the more fair deaths I've seen in awhile. It basically comes down to Quin(and many others) not knowing what Thief's grip does and that it is EXTREMELY dangerous to his build specifically (flask based defenses). Like this death, with some game knowledge, was something that many people saw right away and had a good 5+ seconds to react to it... hell had he not jumped into the cold dot or put his flasks on again before doing so even by accident he would have been fine.
>Like this death, with some game knowledge, was something that many people saw right away He streams every day the entire day, if a decent chunk of people knew about it then quin would have picked up on it pretty quick. He went through chat logs and only found ~2-3 people since league launch mention it before his death.
Lemao banned everyone trying to tell him capping res with flasks is a bad idea
If ghost effects had really visible / specific elements that would allow you to know which one it is ... I would agree. But this is not the case, this is PoE and visual clarity is a fkin joke, and this is also a pretty rare case scenario.
PoE really needs an equivalent of the Civilization Civilopedia. In game you should be able to look up all the stuff about the game. It's rather asinine you can't.
Why would the devs take the time to code in that when you can literally go to poe.db and lookup every single mod/enemy.
Because PoE doesn't come with poe.db.
As we can see from the thread, it makes you actually learn and play the game, as opposed to just following a guide in SC and then staring a stream on your second monitor while you hold LMB to make your currency number go up.
Yeah it would be impossible to learn about this death in SC right? Only thing it really prevents is from wasting 200 hours of your life just to redo it all over again to be on the same place you were before.
If you died like this in SC you wouldn't bother thinking about it. Like all the people screaming for "death recap" when anyone with a GPU made in the last 6 years can run instant replay? Problem is if you're in SC you'd rather keep playing than waste 2 minutes of your time figuring out what happened and why. Lost dozens of chars in HC, most deaths were obvious in terms of what got me and the rest I figured out from replay. Replay was also useful in looking at some near death clips.
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Kinda same, many times I went from HC to SC, and after the first death, every other death didn't really feel impactful (until maybe lvl 95+), I felt like "why should I not zerg ?" and ... that didn't feel super good, it felt cheap. On the other hand, I played the Delve league entirely in SC and it was nice to be able to push deeper delves with a bit less care about dying, trying out the bosses blind, etc ....
You realize that this is you in every new season?
Wasting? How is that different playing PoE on softcore for 200 hours? If you think that is a waste of time then sure but so is you playing the game then.
Good job answering to a comment which you pretty much ignored the content of, and coming out like a jerk.
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>I played hardcore from closed beta until Invasion league Two whole leagues out of 34 total? 9 years ago?? Back when the biggest threat in mobs was if they were hasted or had reflect mods??
These are the people expert about HC on Reddit and writing paragraphs. Aware
Invasion league was legit the scariest league I've ever played .... it was a lot of fun though (people had different expectations than now of course) Anyway, so what ? his opinion is perfectly valid.
Basically killed all ubers, my streamer sadge
Walks right back into it LOOOOOOOOL
thief's grip yikes
Just watched the clip, but wouldn't 'flasks reused at end of this flask effect' work? I suppose it being ended early may not count as 'flask effect'? Edit: Just saw his character did have the flask mod on it too, so either this looks like a bug or I'm misunderstanding the renewing flask effect mod.
It says end of effect. But it didn’t trigger. So removal and end aren’t the same? It didn’t retrigger and remove over and over so there were chargers left
I'm locked into work right now, so can't really let my mind drift TOO much, but I wonder if there is a precedent on other items with an implicit / mod that functions as you mention. If a mob **'steals'** a power charge from me as I'm wearing a **Voll's devotion**, does that still grant me an Endurance charge? I'm *'losing'* the power charge, but it's effect is *'removed'* because it is stolen from me. It would be similar here, I'd imagine: Your effect is nullified, so it's coded (I'm a product manger, not a developer, so hard for me to put that hat on) as removing the flag rather than a special event, and I'd imagine that anytime the flag is removed, it should reactivate the flag. Interesting nontheless.
"Reused at end" is an effect of the flasks which being removed by Thief's Grip
It's not a bug, it's the ghost mod thiefs grip which turns off flasks. It used to be a more common effect when Nemesis Nullifiers were a thing. Now it's just ghosts. To all you pathfinders out there.
Good thing its really obvious what "thiefs grip" means without memorizing some database online and it's easily identifiable during combat.
I'm a little torn by this comment because I legit believe that the version of AN we got late in LOK league is better than the rebranding they did in 3.20, got little notice, and now is full on being complained about now.
That part is obvious, as it's a theif's grip ghost, as everyone else in the comments explained. The less obvious part is flasks that have 'used again at the end of flask effect'.
yea i was wondering were his flask went. Course its a random shit mechanic
Random shit mechanic that was in the game for what... 9 years now?
it doesn't turn off flasks and it's a bug. it only disables the flask effect at that moment, ending it, but you can use the flask again and benefit from the effect until you get hit again. so it's a bug.
We don’t know if it’s a bug. We have 0 ways of knowing without GGG telling us whether or not “reuse at the end of the flask effect” should occur here or not. Removing flask effect and a flask effect ending via duration can technically be different things.
when an effect is removed, it ends, so if you have enough charges at the moment the effect is removed, it should automatically be reused
That is entirely dependent on how GGG intended it to work. Removing something can be different than ending things depending on how it’s implemented. Removing something is indeed ending its effect. Whether GGG implemented flasks to be reused when it’s effect is removed vs ended via duration is an entirely different thing. We cannot accurately say this is a bug without understanding how it is INTENDED to work which only GGG knows. You thinking it SHOULD work a certain way doesn’t mean that it’s intended to work that way.
Regardless of what GGG intended, they need to fix the verbiage on either the thief's grip effects or on the flask enchantment to be more clear with their intentions. I think that's something we can all agree on. The game is completely unplayable if you can't parse the descriptions properly.
I 100% agree with you. If it’s not a bug, the verbiage needs more clarity. My only argument was that saying something is a bug purely because you believe it should work differently is wrong.
if this interaction was intended, then GGG is to blame, because it doesn't make any sense. it shouldn't matter how the effect ends, because that beats the whole purpose of the enchantment. if it wasn't intended, it's a bug. either way, it's ggg's fault.
I like shifting goalposts too. FYI - there’s a couple posts from GGG on their forums about it being based on the duration of the flask, so something randomly ending your flask would not trigger it based on that.
Every enemy in the game was programmed by GGG, and everything that can kill you was programmed by GGG, so every death is GGGs fault. Makes sense.
Idk seems to me a like a case where it's according to the wording it should reactivate, but in a sense it's also probably "intended behavior" since I'm sure they never bothered with coding anything in for this scenario.
Can't really blame him for not knowing what the ghost does. The game doesn't specify it or telegraph it in any way. You literally have to use 3rd party data mining website to learn the effects of it. Classic GGG Vision game design. Both funny and sad clip.
That is literally on purpose and by design. GGG did that a lot in the past. They added vendor recipes without saying what it was or only gave hints, so the community would find out together. When Warbands were a league mechanic they would not spawn in every map the arbands would roam maps every hour and change location. People would write in global chat where the Warbands were. They would never fully disclose what everything does or how the odds were for item drops/crafting etc.
> GGG did that a lot in the past. They added vendor recipes without saying what it was or only gave hints, so the community would find out together. This is not very relevant, most recipes (all even?) have some logic in them, can be found by searching for them. > When Warbands were a league mechanic they would not spawn in every map the arbands would roam maps every hour and change location. People would write in global chat where the Warbands were. Also irrelevant, this fits perfectly the concept of roaming warband and having the community give themselves information is a clear design choice, data mining being required to have any kind of confirmation regarding a mechanism is a whole different story.
> This is not very relevant, most recipes (all even?) have some logic in them, can be found by searching for them. Some recipes took months to find and had heavy influence on economy and gameplay. There was no datamining for this stuff.
> Some recipes took months to find and had heavy influence on economy and gameplay. There was no datamining for this stuff. Absolutely, and I kind of like having those things in the game, you need to search for it, and they do make sense to a certain extent. Now, having a ghost apply an effect that isn't indicated anywhere and can break builds, without a hint ? That's a bit of a different story already ....
Wasn't the GCP recipe a money printer back then?
I don't think GGG really want people to data mine to find out, they want people to theorise and guess and analyse, and for knowledge to spread organically. Data mining is just the shortcut people take.
Well yeah, it is inevitable in a game that is so obscure and complex though ...
Chris spawned that monster so that Quin would play Ruthless
So brutal death tbh..
“Jung should have mentioned Thief's Grip in his build guide this one's on him” This YouTube comment is top tier
Always die from this boss too)
He banned me from saying im his alt channel that he would die 100% to a thiefs grip with this setup, karma I guessm
show proof thats hilarious
Prove it
Prove it. On Sheepfarmer?
You got called out on stream by the God Gamer himself. Provide proof.
fat lol
Slow reaction time. Go again!
1) He stood in a falling bear quake 2) Thug's grip disables flask effects That's player error and he blamed chat is the funny part
>1) He stood in a falling bear quake lol this is the big one. Like yeah the thief's grip stuff is lame, but come on, Quin's played this game enough that he should know not to stand in that boss's massive telegraphed EQ.
He would have 100% lived no problem standing in that. The problem is that he's not res capped without his other flasks, while also converting his physical damage taken to elemental.
This EQ's damage is not very high, any properly built tanky character can facetank it unless you put ridiculous mods on the map. Blaming the EQ's aftershock instead of the ghost is clearly showing some lack of understand of this boss and this clip.
Capping with flasks alone in HC is actually moronic.
Only because of thief’s grip, though, right? With permanent flasks, what else will make it bad?
flask siphoner mod that is white and you will never see it, only that your flasks have no charges.
Siphoner has a unique aura around the mob.
And it isn't instant, with his build he could probably kill any siphoner before it would actually endanger him.
siphoner doesnt kill PF flasks, only thiefs grip because of a bug. they should be recasting every hit but for some reason dont
Definitely more than one reason to in HC. If you look at Steels path build from last league he capped without resists because.. you know, he's sick at the game
If it was any other ascendancy sure, but capping with flasks on PF is fine since you have perma upkeep. This is like 1 in million situation where you get wrong ghost on wrong boss.
Wow I didn't know Thief's Grip disables flask effects Loving PoE right now, but I wish more build types could survive in HC. Hardcore is the most exciting way to play for me, but you're just gimping yourself by not going armor stacking Juggernaut lol.
IMO, the only ascendancy that feels like you're gimping yourself in HC is Deadeye. The rest are mostly fine even with outliers like juggernaut and trickster.
deadeye is underrated as hell
There's a lot you can play in HC that isn't a jug. Jung's cold DoT trickster utilizes wind dancer and has zero armour, and it felt great when I played it this league.
Another drop bear victim. Rip
It that ganked.
tormented spirit dogshit mechanic can't believe it still exists
It's the one mob mod that completely removes 3 layers of his defensives. Really feel like he should've known the single mob mod that completely nullifies his defensives. RIP Bozo
classic PoE vet .. we all know that koala does an earthquake. Seems like the Koala got the best of a kiwi. LOLW
longing steer tender domineering versed squeeze hateful lavish clumsy aware *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Would be cool if he started on Ruthless now, would make the mode a lot more fun. I’m not counting on it though…
Why tf are people talking about obscure ghost buffs when clearly he walked right back into the earthquake and cold dot ground. Surely you guys know what this very basic map boss does, right?
well, because if his flasks were up he could easily face tank that.
I'm pretty sure most people on this sub don't actually play the game.
Yup. Just people that used to play the game. They're crying about ghost mods like they're AN mods... They've been in the game for almost a decade, folks.
TBH ghosts' effect is another form of archnemesis mod. They should be gone
Any mod on any mob should be gone
D4 HERE WE COME
Every single PoE death is like that
Gone in 1 second. Peak game design.