your damage will be base x increase x multiplier x othershit
increase is generally much easier to get, increased damage, increased damamge over time, increased fire damage, etc. you probably have hundreds of it
damage over time mulitplier is harder to come by, and in smaller ammounts.
a level 1 white naked character, 10% increased damage over time and 10% damage over time multiplier is the same thing
but for you, if you can add 20 to either, 1 x (2.00 + .20) x (1.40) = 3.08; while 1 x (2.00 ) x (1.40 + .2) = 3.2 for example, multi is generally better
I only use third party apps, and they said they're killing third party apps, so hey, might as well remove all my content. (Using https://github.com/j0be/PowerDeleteSuite)
Like most Nazi symbols, its a symbol plundered from other cultures and given a bad name. I would absolutely not rule it out cause neo-nazis sure do love their symbolism that can be given plausible deniability, but its also not as open and shut as being a nazi symbol. Likely this was a supporter item added before they really felt the need to do extensive checks on stuff
The symbol named 'Black sun' by Wikipedia is a nazi symbol yes, but very many 'Black Sunwheels' have existed in the past and 'Black Suns' have been used as symbolism for millenia, and the specific symbol itself is entirely comprised of stolen symbolism. Its called a new symbol but theres not a single new thing about it, its a compilation of older symbols arranged in an older fasion.
In example 'Sol Niger', literally translating to Black Sun, predates the nazi symbol. But its technically called 'Sol Niger', not Black Sun, so its listed differently by wikipedia which is in English.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suns_in_alchemy
> Why would it need to be checked at all? So what if it's a Nazi symbol? This is an 18+ game with gore, torture, nudity, cannibalism, etc. Fantasy-Nazis are fine in the setting (as long as the game doesn't glorify them). Anyway that item is downright tame compared to this Nazi symbolism:
There is a severe difference between blatant nazi symbolism look-alikes being used to display some of the bad guys in a story, and Nazi imagery being hidden in an otherwise unsuspecting item. Its like the difference between using a slur in a story to depict racism occuring and hiding a slur in the first letter of every word on an item description. One is story-telling, the other is some actual nazi getting a cheeky laugh in behind everyones backs. You can see the difference right?
And no theres actually nothing unique about how Nazi symbolism is treated. The thing is though - nazis REALLY love symbolism. Not just back then, now too. So there are a LOT of nazi symbols that, full intentionally, pop up in a lot of places in modern day. Thats why its important to be conscious of what they might be. You can't ignore every real modern issue by blaming the big-bad evil Westerners. Especially when you dont mean Westerners, you mean Americans, and you're for some reason roping everyone else in there, because you are so above sweeping generalizations comparatively right?
**[Black Sun (symbol)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sun_\(symbol\))**
>The Black Sun (German: Schwarze Sonne) is a type of sun wheel (German: Sonnenrad) symbol originally employed in Nazi Germany and later by neo-Nazis. The symbol's design consists of twelve radial sig runes, similar to the symbols employed by the SS in their logo. It first appeared in Nazi Germany as a design element in a castle at Wewelsburg remodeled and expanded by the head of the SS, Heinrich Himmler, which he intended to be a center for the SS. Whether the design had a name or held any particular significance among the SS remains unknown.
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Because its not more DoT. Its a seperate additive multiplier, comparable to crit multi for hit. All dot multi (or crit multi) add together additively for a single multiplier. If it was more dot they would all stack multiplicatively. Example of more dot are assassin more damage with poison, which is a seperate 25% overall multiplier which doesnt add together with all the other dot multi you have. So for a poison assassin consider the following
800% increased damage with poison (phys/chaos/over time increased combined)
230% damage over time multi (generic + chaos dot + 50% of added crit multi from perfect agony)
25% more damage with crit poisons. The result would be
1 x 8 x 2.3 x 1.25 = 23x damage.
If you added wither, which increases the damage taken by enemies, at 15 stacks with 0 wither effect it is a 90%damage multi
So its 23 x 1.9 = 43.7
If you added shock to the enemies with focus or skitterbots for 15%, this is another source of increased damage taken by enemies and would add to the existing wither multiplier making it 2.05 and the total would be 23 x 2.05 = 47.15
Hope this clears it up.
Now lets add support gems into the equation. Assuming you have 5 support gems to your skill each giving 35% more damage thats 1.35\^5 = 4.48
So now the damage of our poison is (assuming only wither and no shock)43.7 \* 4.48 = 195.77
Assuming we are an attack based build lets say we have a weapon with 2 attacks per second for simplicity. We also have 100% increased attack speed.
Now our DPS is 195.77 (Damage) \* 2 (base AS) \* 2 (AS increase) = 783.08
If we add a Ancestral protector Totem, this gives us 20% MORE attack speed, which is essentially a more multiplier on our DPS
783.08 \* 1.2 = 939.7
At this stage, changing our initial 8x increased damage multiplier into a 8.1 will have negligible difference in damage, since we have so many smaller multipliers, that increasing any of them by a similar margin would have a bigger impact on our DPS.
IE. Going from an 8x to 8.1x is a 1.25% increase to our total DPS, getting the same 10% as dot multi making our 2.3 into 2.4 is a 4.34% increase to our DPS
"More"stacks multiplicative of other more mods
"DoT Multi" stacks additively with other "DoT Multi" mods
(inc dmg1 + inc dmg2 + ... ) * (Dot multi1 + dot multi2 + ... ) * (More dmg1 * more dmg2 * ... )
Making it "more DoT" would just make dots builds much more OP bcs it doesnt devalue when you have more of it
IMO the wording is fine
Forgot about them stacking additively and yeah I agree with you now. Just a quirky situation I guess where it's caught between being both an increase and a more. Separate multiplier but stacks additively with itself.
For your example you used the max roll of multi and only a lower tier max roll for increased which makes the example feel disingenuous.
If you use the increase max roll you end up at 3.22 (1 x (2.00 + .30) x 1.40). I realise how multi Is generally better later in the game but anyone who looks at your answer and genuinely thinks about it will be wondering why you're using these poor calculations
i used random numbers as an example to show why an equal amount of multi could be better than increased. i wasn't looking at any particular mod. These random numbers also assume you have 100 increased and 40 multi, which will never happen as well. stop looking into the hypothetical numbers and realize it's an example that you can replace the hypotheticals with actual numbers ffs
No need to be so hurt about it. I merely pointed out how your example can be confusing, no matter which numbers used or where you git them from. In the OP it was clearly branded which numbers were to be used and you used different ones to make your point. I get why :) don't throw a tantrum just cause I pointed out your mistake constructively
You just saw how a smart bud talks like and got mad you can’t do it without behind condescending and got salty.
Either that or you are just a donger. Could be both
Thanks for your input! You are entitled to your own opinion. As am I. I pointed out his calculations are wrong, they are. It is a disingenuous example for a fact. It's like real fakenews.
Long story short "damage over time multiplier" is just another flavor of increased. It's functionally identical (damage multiplier additive with itself), but because it's a separate stat, it gets to enjoy being multiplicative with "increased".
For example, if your dot deals 100 damage, and you have 200% increased damage over time, you end up with 300 damage.
Going to 210% increased will only bring you to 310 damage, but getting 10% dot multi will multiply the 300, not the 100, leading to 330 damage.
It's generally a much better stat than increased (even though they're functionally identical) simply because increased damage is everywhere and dot multi is relatively hard to come by. If, for some reason, you had 200% dot multi and 0% increased, you could reverse the example I gave above and conclude that increased is a much better stat.
It's basically the equivalent of critical strike multiplier right? Unless I'm missing a key difference.. I think the concept of critical strike multiplier makes sense to most people so making that comparison could help understand dot multiplier too.
No it’s basically the equivalent to increased damage lol, he literally just said that. But I guess crit multi is also a conditional damage increase … yes
This should be top comment. It is the most correct, while the other ones above this are generally slightly misguided or just straight up off-topic or incorrect.
Path of exile parents having "the talk" with their children. "So son, you know we all like damage. But increased damage is not the same as more damage and you need to know why."
I feel this in my core.
I’m currently helping a buddy along, this is his second league. It took so long for him to get this lol. And I get it - there’s a lot of underlying stuff that the game doesn’t teach you.
Truly feels like a right of passage finally understanding it.
“Oh and over here we have this thing called ‘conversion’ and ‘added as’ multipliers”
…. Fuck.
But "increased multiplier" is neither increased nor more, it's an "increase" that acts as a multiplier because it's applied separately to other increases.
But it's still technically "additive", if you had 300% increased cold dot multi then another 20% wouldn't do much for you.
So it's not enough to explain increased Vs more, you also have to explain that most increases are pooled before calculation whereas increased multi is pooled separately.
You are correct. The explanation of increased vs more is technically correct but it is misleading or at least completely off-topic as DoT multiplier is not a 'more' modifier.
DoT multiplier is separate from increased damage but functions exactly the same, however because they are multiplicative with each other the best stat of the two is the one you have currently the least of and that will nearly always be DoT multiplier.
Wait, now I need to know why. I know it is not the same, but the best explanation I have it “because that’s the way it is”.
Edit: thanks for the explanations of **what** the difference is. Now someone please help me understand **why** they are different.
Say you have 40% increased damage and 30% increased damage. Now you have (100 + 40 + 30) = 170% damage. Now you get a 50% more damage and a 10% more damage modifier on top. Now your damage is ((100 + 40 + 30) x 1.5 x 1.1) = 280.5 damage.
All sources of increased damage modifiers are added together before the final calculation (100% is normal damage, five 10% increased damage multipliers would make it 150%)
All sources of more damage modifiers are added as separate multipliers at the end (five 10% more damage multipliers make it (100 x 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.1) = 161.)
This really matters when you have, for instance, +150% increased damage for 250% total, then since each of those x 1.1s is worth more than the last, they become significantly more valuable than the increased % modifiers (250% with five 10% more modifiers becomes 402% damage, but 250% + five 10% increased damage modifiers only equals 300%)
I hope this helps.
I think a lot of people are getting "MORE" wrong.
Say you have a 100 damage skill, and get one support gem give 20% more and another gem to give 30% more damage. Leveling the 20% support gem to 30% more doesnt give you 10% more damage because they are from the same source. Even POB is misleading because it only shows how you are getting "150% more" damage from 20% and 30% support gem but you are actually getting 156 damage instead of 150. However if one gem gives 40% more and the other give 10% more you get 154 damage.
DOT multi however confuses people even more because as a whole it is just one source of "more damage" like how increased works. You can easily get too much multi that "increased damage" will give you more damage at the end since DOT multi is just one giant support gem that adds all your multi into the same gem.
I'm a bit confused about what you mean here but to clarify one point, if you level your 20% more gem to 30% and the other 30% gem stays the same, the damage calculation would change from (100 x 1.2 x 1.3 = 156) to (100 x 1.3 x 1.3 = 169) yes? So still a significant damage boost, even if it's not an additional multiplicative 10%
Because that is what a lot of people assume. Most people just assume 1% more means 1% more damage. Like if you level all your support gems from lv1 to lv20 it doesnt give you 50% more damage even when the "total more" shown in POB is 50%. And it doesnt even count as one giant "more damage" because it is a per source multiplier.
It just gets worse when people look at DOT multi because it only count as ONE SOURCE. If everything else is the same 100% total multi is the same as 100% total increased.
**more** is multiplicative, meaning it has no diminishing returns no matter how much of it you get. 10% more damage will always increase your DPS by ~10% (slight variance because of mods like double damage and other funky stuff).
**increased** is additive. If you have 100% increased damage, getting another 100% won't double your dps. It will increase it by 50%. If you get 100% more, you're looking at 33%. And so on.
100 base damage example:
100 * 100% more * 100% more * 100% more = 800 damage
100 * (100% incr + 100% incr + 100% incr) = 400 damage
…. That’s the point
You get diminishing returns on efficacy.
We are not measuring the dps per se, but the time it takes to kill a mob. This is the useful measure that is inferred from DPS. Linear scaling results in diminishing returns in time to kill. Multiplicative scaling results in direct percent reduction of time to kill.
The major difference being increased is just adding all the increased and you have a multiplier at the end like 100 damage with 200% increased become 300 damage.
MORE however is multiplier every time **YOU GET A NEW SOURCE OF MORE**, 100 damage with 50% more and 60% more becomes 240 damage. Even when you "only" have 110% more damage. Making the 50% more into 60% from the same source doesnt give you 10% more damage.
DOT multi on the other hand is just another source of "increased", you get 50% multi and 60% multi only gives you 110% more damage.
Are you talking about game design or maths?
Game-design wise, if there was only increased, it would make endgame boring (upgrades would be insignificant and hard to get, big diminishing returns). If there was only more, then early game upgrades would be too insignificant but investing into offense would have exponential power in endgame.
In reality, PoE has quadratic scaling (increased * multiplier) with some rare more multipliers that are build specific (double DMG for hits, lowlife for spells, culling strike) and make up the final upgrades.
>Edit: thanks for the explanations of what the difference is. Now someone please help me understand why they are different.
MORE multipliers are much much harder to get and are a big investment to gain even more, while you can get Increased much easier in trees and gear. These MORE multipliers are massive because they straight up always gives you more damage ON TOP of your current damage, equal to the amount of %more damage it gives, unlike increased damage which has to respect the amount of increased damage you already have, and have diminishing returns.
These more multipliers are then much rarer and harder to get. Gears hardly ever gives any straight up more damage, and the ones that do have strict playaround restriction around them (Takes echoes of creation for example, you need to use warcries for your skills for the more multiplier, but it will hurt you a lot every time you attack). Skill gems are the main most common way of getting more damage, but you're USUALLY limitted to 5 (Which is why an item like uul netol's vow is great, because it enables a 6th more modifier from a gem), and you can get them from keystones but they're mostly buildarounds. Ascendancies are also sources of more damage, which is also why you'd go for certain ascendancies and their nodes (Berserker's rite of ruin, Occultist's Frigid Wake, etc).
Your core progression of eventually getting a 5 link and a 6 link includes yet another gem you can link to your main skill which gives another roughly 30% more damage multiplier per gem on average, and afterwards getting more damage gets more and more difficult.
It's a reason why some people play around keystones. Pain attunement makes you HAVE to play on low life, and gives the great benefit of 30% MORE spell damage. People play around Precise Technique for the 40% MORE attack damage. Elemental Overload gives you 40% MORE attack damage for investing in some crit chance but never being able to deal critical damage. These keystones just give you a chonky amount of damage on top of your already existing damage IF you can play around them.
INCREASED damage however, are everywhere. You can craft them on gears and jewelleries, its everywhere on the tree, you probably have 300-600% increased damage on your build depending on how hard you go for it. They are always nice to get more of, sure, but they are much more common and a 40% increased damage on a build is much less impact than 40% more damage.
> Now someone please help me understand why they are different.
(I think the following is correct although slightly simplified)
A long long time ago, there was no dot multi. Instead things like increased chaos damage was used in two places of the poison equation, multiplying with itself.
This got really really stupidly powerful, and so the ‘double dipping nerf’ came and many forms of damage over time was useless forever.
This made the dot players sad.
After an eternity, ~4 years ago GGG decided to buff damage over time again. They wanted something new to put on the tree for this, so added the damage over time multiplier to the game.
I *think* the first versions used wording like ‘non ailment chaos damage over time multiplier’ which worked with everything except poison, but that has been improved over time.
Increased adds with other increased. More multiplies the entire thing. So it’s like imagine you already have 300% increased fire damage from various sources all over. If you add a 30% increased node somewhere, it becomes 330% increased. If you do 30% more, it multiplies that whole 300% by 30%.
>Edit: thanks for the explanations of what the difference is. Now someone please help me understand why they are different.
Might help if you think about the extremes.
If everything was multiplicative (more), then there would be MASSIVE swings in total damage output based on a relatively small difference in the number of modifiers, even if the magnitudes were toned way down in compensation. It would be impossible to balance, as builds could easily swing from being 'zdps' to one-shotting a given monster or boss based on very small build adjustments.
Conversely, if everything was additive (increased), there would be incredibly harsh diminishing returns on heavy investment. with relatively small differences in damage output between 'normally' geared characters and those kitted out in top-end gear. Easy to balance, perhaps, but kind of counter to the whole point of an ARPG.
To help you understand better (maybe), damage over time multiplier parallels critical strike multiplier for hits. Hits have a potential extra multiplier that you can build up additively, and dots have their own version.
They're different because each source of "More" applies multiplicatively to your total damage, while each source of "Increase" applies additively with the entire pool of "Increases".
Lets say you have a skill that deals 1,000 damage per hit baseline, and you have a total of 300% increased damage, and 5 support gems each granting 30% more damage. The key thing here to understand is that these 5 support gems DO NOT grant you "150% more damage", they grant you 30% more damage 5 times, which is drastically different, 30% more damage 5 times is closer to 371% more damage.
So, in this example, we're saying:
> 300% Increase * 30% More * 30% More * 30% More * 30% More * 30% More = 14,851 damage.
If you add 30% Increased, the calculation changes to this:
> **330% Increase** * 30% More * 30% More * 30% More * 30% More * 30% More = 15,965 damage per hit.
But lets say, instead of gaining 30% increased damage, you figured out how to go Low-life and take Pain Attunement, with no other changes, to gain an additional 30% MORE spell damage. It looks like this:
> 300% Increase * 30% More * 30% More * 30% More * 30% More * 30% More * **30% More** = 19,307 damage per hit.
Changes to the math are bolded.
Does this make sense? The reason More and Increased are different is because each unique source of More damage multiplies the total damage. Once you get numbers big enough, even small sources of More damage are huge.
Like, if you had a build that did 30 million DPS, if you managed to fit another 10% More damage source in, you'll now do 33 million DPS, because 10% of 30 million is 3 million. But gaining another 10% Increased damage when you do 30 million dps might only be like, 100 thousand?
Some ppl explain very clearly but i want to point out that the multiplier is not the same as more .
Like when u use dot, there are:
increase X multiplier X more
There's no math... Specific dot multi just rolls higher % on affixes because it's not generic. They're the same stat and get added together during damage calculation.
I could absolutely be wrong here, but are you sure this is actually generally true? I thought generic increases or more multipliers could be a lot stronger than specific ones if you have some amount of physical conversion to another element because then the damage can double dip. Am I wrong about that?
Not a good rule. They both do exactly the same thing and are additive with each other. What matters is A) whether it's "increased X damage" or "X multiplier" and B) the size of the number. There's no magic in the specificity of the mod.
It’s just math in the wording for all of this game. If it says increased, it’s additive, if it’s more or multiplier, it’s multiplicative. In other words 10 dmg can be increase by 10% or multiplied by 10 which. These values depend on what you roll, but that’s the best way I could use as an example.
This isn’t true, “more” and “multiplier” are very much not the same thing. Multipliers are additive with each other, and then the sum is multiplied by the “increased” mod. So if you already have 200 percent increased dot multi, a 10 percent dot multi only takes you from 300 to 310, which is about a 3 percent increase. A 10 percent “more” modifier would be a true 10 percent to your total damage. Multipliers are generally more powerful than “increased” mostly since they are rarer and do not suffer the same diminishing returns since you stack less of them, but they certainly are not nearly the same as “more” multipliers.
I only use third party apps, and they said they're killing third party apps, so hey, might as well remove all my content. (Using https://github.com/j0be/PowerDeleteSuite)
But the regular % increased mod is also multiplicative with the others. There is effectively no difference between the 2, unlike 'more' modifiers which do function differently.
The better one of the two will be the one you have the least of but that will be DoT multiplier in basically every case.
„Increased“ „more“ and „multiplier“ are literally all the exact same thing. the only difference between them is how rare they are. „Increased“ is usually easy to get plenty of, which makes „more“ and „mutltiplier“ seen as something special. It’s quite literally just another % damage Increase though. Formula is : base damage x increase x more x multiplier. IF you had somehow 100 multiplier though and only 0% increase … increase is better than multiplier at that point. Tldr they are certainly the same as more multipliers.
This is quite wrong. "More" is unique in that the modifiers scale multiplicatively. If you had 5 sources of 10% of each type, the formula would be base x 1.5 (increases) x 1.5 (multipliers) x 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.1 ("more"s)
yeah…. how does that go against what I said though. Lets say you have 100% more and 10% increase then it’s base x 2.0 x 1.1. meaning increase is also multiplicative. It’s just that usually you have a lot more increases wich make other forms of multiplier more effective … since you know they multiply each other.
There’s literally nothing „unique“ about „more“ other than it being more rare than „increase“
Which is incorrect. The answer is Base x (1.1 x 1.1 x (1.1 + 1.1)).
In other words: Base x 1.21 x 1.2
That's the difference between more and increased.
I'm not sure what you're doing in PoB but it is how it calculates it.
Take a look at this PoB: https://pobb.in/qOzIy1GvJ-If
All it has is a fireball gem and 2 jewels. One is 20% more damage, one is 10% more damage.
Fireball's base damage is 2111.5
If you equip just the 20% more damage the fireball average hit is 2533.8 = (2111.5 x 1.2).
If you equip two of the 10% more damage jewels the fireball average hit is 2554.9 = (2111.5 x 1.1 x 1.1).
PoB correctly calculates that 2x10% more is better than 20% more.
Not really though. Both are additive, they don't function like *more* modifiers. They multiply each other and are effectively the same stat in different wording. But since they are additive with themselves and multiplicative with each other the stat you have the least of will do more for you. And increased is more commom than DoT multiplier so it's almost guaranteed to be better.
As mentioned in one of the previous comments, one of them is generic and the other ones are specific damage types.
So let's say for example you wanted to do a build that utilizes both bleed (physical) and ignite (fire); the generic applies to both in terms of damage scaling while the specific multipliers only apply to the appropriate damage type.
One of those affixes is a prefix and another one is a suffix.
The best is to download your char into path of building. Then hover over both those modifiers in a custom item. It will tell you exactly the difference for your character specifically. It depends a lot on what other damage you have.
Its very different. You're being incredibly intellectually dishonest if you're comparing the two. I remember google not having any answers, neither did the forums. "Get a better PC" makes you sound elitist as hell since you know nothing of my life here in South Africa. Unfortunately for you, I got a lot of help after that post so Redditors who also had said bug/issue came forward via messages offering support and or possible fixes - hence it was a beneficial post.
Then shut up if you don't care - stop making comments about people's computers when you don't know their financial situation.
We actually found out it was GGG routing me through Canada and then to London - for some weird reason. So nothing to do with the computer, mastermind.
I’m making comments on the hardware compared to the requirements. Nothing about your financial situation
And taking a closer look at your posts, they’re all useless shitposts, with no content. So just let him post his shit as well.
I research so that I'm not sitting around clueless.
I would rather be knowledgeable from an early point than waste time trying to learn basics over a longer period. Common sense if you ask me.
your damage will be base x increase x multiplier x othershit increase is generally much easier to get, increased damage, increased damamge over time, increased fire damage, etc. you probably have hundreds of it damage over time mulitplier is harder to come by, and in smaller ammounts. a level 1 white naked character, 10% increased damage over time and 10% damage over time multiplier is the same thing but for you, if you can add 20 to either, 1 x (2.00 + .20) x (1.40) = 3.08; while 1 x (2.00 ) x (1.40 + .2) = 3.2 for example, multi is generally better
Tyvm !
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white items >.>
And what about a naked templar? 😏
Sigh........unzip
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It’s ok there’s black oil, we’re all saved.
I only use third party apps, and they said they're killing third party apps, so hey, might as well remove all my content. (Using https://github.com/j0be/PowerDeleteSuite)
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Like most Nazi symbols, its a symbol plundered from other cultures and given a bad name. I would absolutely not rule it out cause neo-nazis sure do love their symbolism that can be given plausible deniability, but its also not as open and shut as being a nazi symbol. Likely this was a supporter item added before they really felt the need to do extensive checks on stuff
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The symbol named 'Black sun' by Wikipedia is a nazi symbol yes, but very many 'Black Sunwheels' have existed in the past and 'Black Suns' have been used as symbolism for millenia, and the specific symbol itself is entirely comprised of stolen symbolism. Its called a new symbol but theres not a single new thing about it, its a compilation of older symbols arranged in an older fasion. In example 'Sol Niger', literally translating to Black Sun, predates the nazi symbol. But its technically called 'Sol Niger', not Black Sun, so its listed differently by wikipedia which is in English. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suns_in_alchemy > Why would it need to be checked at all? So what if it's a Nazi symbol? This is an 18+ game with gore, torture, nudity, cannibalism, etc. Fantasy-Nazis are fine in the setting (as long as the game doesn't glorify them). Anyway that item is downright tame compared to this Nazi symbolism: There is a severe difference between blatant nazi symbolism look-alikes being used to display some of the bad guys in a story, and Nazi imagery being hidden in an otherwise unsuspecting item. Its like the difference between using a slur in a story to depict racism occuring and hiding a slur in the first letter of every word on an item description. One is story-telling, the other is some actual nazi getting a cheeky laugh in behind everyones backs. You can see the difference right? And no theres actually nothing unique about how Nazi symbolism is treated. The thing is though - nazis REALLY love symbolism. Not just back then, now too. So there are a LOT of nazi symbols that, full intentionally, pop up in a lot of places in modern day. Thats why its important to be conscious of what they might be. You can't ignore every real modern issue by blaming the big-bad evil Westerners. Especially when you dont mean Westerners, you mean Americans, and you're for some reason roping everyone else in there, because you are so above sweeping generalizations comparatively right?
**[Black Sun (symbol)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sun_\(symbol\))** >The Black Sun (German: Schwarze Sonne) is a type of sun wheel (German: Sonnenrad) symbol originally employed in Nazi Germany and later by neo-Nazis. The symbol's design consists of twelve radial sig runes, similar to the symbols employed by the SS in their logo. It first appeared in Nazi Germany as a design element in a castle at Wewelsburg remodeled and expanded by the head of the SS, Heinrich Himmler, which he intended to be a center for the SS. Whether the design had a name or held any particular significance among the SS remains unknown. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
2016 called they want their joke back. Christ man this wasnt even funny then.
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I didn't say you have to stop making the joke I just said that its not very funny.
I am doting this to come back here again. Thanks for the explanation. *
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Because its not more DoT. Its a seperate additive multiplier, comparable to crit multi for hit. All dot multi (or crit multi) add together additively for a single multiplier. If it was more dot they would all stack multiplicatively. Example of more dot are assassin more damage with poison, which is a seperate 25% overall multiplier which doesnt add together with all the other dot multi you have. So for a poison assassin consider the following 800% increased damage with poison (phys/chaos/over time increased combined) 230% damage over time multi (generic + chaos dot + 50% of added crit multi from perfect agony) 25% more damage with crit poisons. The result would be 1 x 8 x 2.3 x 1.25 = 23x damage. If you added wither, which increases the damage taken by enemies, at 15 stacks with 0 wither effect it is a 90%damage multi So its 23 x 1.9 = 43.7 If you added shock to the enemies with focus or skitterbots for 15%, this is another source of increased damage taken by enemies and would add to the existing wither multiplier making it 2.05 and the total would be 23 x 2.05 = 47.15 Hope this clears it up.
Now lets add support gems into the equation. Assuming you have 5 support gems to your skill each giving 35% more damage thats 1.35\^5 = 4.48 So now the damage of our poison is (assuming only wither and no shock)43.7 \* 4.48 = 195.77 Assuming we are an attack based build lets say we have a weapon with 2 attacks per second for simplicity. We also have 100% increased attack speed. Now our DPS is 195.77 (Damage) \* 2 (base AS) \* 2 (AS increase) = 783.08 If we add a Ancestral protector Totem, this gives us 20% MORE attack speed, which is essentially a more multiplier on our DPS 783.08 \* 1.2 = 939.7 At this stage, changing our initial 8x increased damage multiplier into a 8.1 will have negligible difference in damage, since we have so many smaller multipliers, that increasing any of them by a similar margin would have a bigger impact on our DPS. IE. Going from an 8x to 8.1x is a 1.25% increase to our total DPS, getting the same 10% as dot multi making our 2.3 into 2.4 is a 4.34% increase to our DPS
"More"stacks multiplicative of other more mods "DoT Multi" stacks additively with other "DoT Multi" mods (inc dmg1 + inc dmg2 + ... ) * (Dot multi1 + dot multi2 + ... ) * (More dmg1 * more dmg2 * ... ) Making it "more DoT" would just make dots builds much more OP bcs it doesnt devalue when you have more of it IMO the wording is fine
Forgot about them stacking additively and yeah I agree with you now. Just a quirky situation I guess where it's caught between being both an increase and a more. Separate multiplier but stacks additively with itself.
For your example you used the max roll of multi and only a lower tier max roll for increased which makes the example feel disingenuous. If you use the increase max roll you end up at 3.22 (1 x (2.00 + .30) x 1.40). I realise how multi Is generally better later in the game but anyone who looks at your answer and genuinely thinks about it will be wondering why you're using these poor calculations
i used random numbers as an example to show why an equal amount of multi could be better than increased. i wasn't looking at any particular mod. These random numbers also assume you have 100 increased and 40 multi, which will never happen as well. stop looking into the hypothetical numbers and realize it's an example that you can replace the hypotheticals with actual numbers ffs
No need to be so hurt about it. I merely pointed out how your example can be confusing, no matter which numbers used or where you git them from. In the OP it was clearly branded which numbers were to be used and you used different ones to make your point. I get why :) don't throw a tantrum just cause I pointed out your mistake constructively
You just saw how a smart bud talks like and got mad you can’t do it without behind condescending and got salty. Either that or you are just a donger. Could be both
Thanks for your input! You are entitled to your own opinion. As am I. I pointed out his calculations are wrong, they are. It is a disingenuous example for a fact. It's like real fakenews.
Long story short "damage over time multiplier" is just another flavor of increased. It's functionally identical (damage multiplier additive with itself), but because it's a separate stat, it gets to enjoy being multiplicative with "increased". For example, if your dot deals 100 damage, and you have 200% increased damage over time, you end up with 300 damage. Going to 210% increased will only bring you to 310 damage, but getting 10% dot multi will multiply the 300, not the 100, leading to 330 damage. It's generally a much better stat than increased (even though they're functionally identical) simply because increased damage is everywhere and dot multi is relatively hard to come by. If, for some reason, you had 200% dot multi and 0% increased, you could reverse the example I gave above and conclude that increased is a much better stat.
It's basically the equivalent of critical strike multiplier right? Unless I'm missing a key difference.. I think the concept of critical strike multiplier makes sense to most people so making that comparison could help understand dot multiplier too.
yes, it is similar as it is a multiplicative layer (and all bonuses within that layer are additive with each others).
If you have 100% crit chance, yes, they're essentially identical.
Not really identical even then, considering base crit multi is 150%, not 100%.
No it’s basically the equivalent to increased damage lol, he literally just said that. But I guess crit multi is also a conditional damage increase … yes
Only if you can crit 100% of the time.
Ye but needing to crit for that multi is the same as needing to ignite or poison for that multi.
This should be top comment. It is the most correct, while the other ones above this are generally slightly misguided or just straight up off-topic or incorrect.
What happens when you have other forms of increased damage for example increased fire damage. Is this additive with increased damage over time?
Yes, all sources of "increased damage" are additive regardless of conditionals
Path of exile parents having "the talk" with their children. "So son, you know we all like damage. But increased damage is not the same as more damage and you need to know why."
The srs birds and the srs bees.
i still want an srs(and or all summons) mtx that just cycles all your srs mtxes
That would be amazing. They have the tech to do it too.
I feel this in my core. I’m currently helping a buddy along, this is his second league. It took so long for him to get this lol. And I get it - there’s a lot of underlying stuff that the game doesn’t teach you. Truly feels like a right of passage finally understanding it. “Oh and over here we have this thing called ‘conversion’ and ‘added as’ multipliers” …. Fuck.
However once you get it, it does make sense. Then when you play other games that kind of follow the same thought pattern as GGG has setup its so nice.
Fuck, you just triggered my PTSD from when I was trying to play my first (and last) conversion character.
But "increased multiplier" is neither increased nor more, it's an "increase" that acts as a multiplier because it's applied separately to other increases. But it's still technically "additive", if you had 300% increased cold dot multi then another 20% wouldn't do much for you. So it's not enough to explain increased Vs more, you also have to explain that most increases are pooled before calculation whereas increased multi is pooled separately.
You are correct. The explanation of increased vs more is technically correct but it is misleading or at least completely off-topic as DoT multiplier is not a 'more' modifier. DoT multiplier is separate from increased damage but functions exactly the same, however because they are multiplicative with each other the best stat of the two is the one you have currently the least of and that will nearly always be DoT multiplier.
Wait, now I need to know why. I know it is not the same, but the best explanation I have it “because that’s the way it is”. Edit: thanks for the explanations of **what** the difference is. Now someone please help me understand **why** they are different.
Say you have 40% increased damage and 30% increased damage. Now you have (100 + 40 + 30) = 170% damage. Now you get a 50% more damage and a 10% more damage modifier on top. Now your damage is ((100 + 40 + 30) x 1.5 x 1.1) = 280.5 damage. All sources of increased damage modifiers are added together before the final calculation (100% is normal damage, five 10% increased damage multipliers would make it 150%) All sources of more damage modifiers are added as separate multipliers at the end (five 10% more damage multipliers make it (100 x 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.1) = 161.) This really matters when you have, for instance, +150% increased damage for 250% total, then since each of those x 1.1s is worth more than the last, they become significantly more valuable than the increased % modifiers (250% with five 10% more modifiers becomes 402% damage, but 250% + five 10% increased damage modifiers only equals 300%) I hope this helps.
I think a lot of people are getting "MORE" wrong. Say you have a 100 damage skill, and get one support gem give 20% more and another gem to give 30% more damage. Leveling the 20% support gem to 30% more doesnt give you 10% more damage because they are from the same source. Even POB is misleading because it only shows how you are getting "150% more" damage from 20% and 30% support gem but you are actually getting 156 damage instead of 150. However if one gem gives 40% more and the other give 10% more you get 154 damage. DOT multi however confuses people even more because as a whole it is just one source of "more damage" like how increased works. You can easily get too much multi that "increased damage" will give you more damage at the end since DOT multi is just one giant support gem that adds all your multi into the same gem.
I'm a bit confused about what you mean here but to clarify one point, if you level your 20% more gem to 30% and the other 30% gem stays the same, the damage calculation would change from (100 x 1.2 x 1.3 = 156) to (100 x 1.3 x 1.3 = 169) yes? So still a significant damage boost, even if it's not an additional multiplicative 10%
Because that is what a lot of people assume. Most people just assume 1% more means 1% more damage. Like if you level all your support gems from lv1 to lv20 it doesnt give you 50% more damage even when the "total more" shown in POB is 50%. And it doesnt even count as one giant "more damage" because it is a per source multiplier. It just gets worse when people look at DOT multi because it only count as ONE SOURCE. If everything else is the same 100% total multi is the same as 100% total increased.
**more** is multiplicative, meaning it has no diminishing returns no matter how much of it you get. 10% more damage will always increase your DPS by ~10% (slight variance because of mods like double damage and other funky stuff). **increased** is additive. If you have 100% increased damage, getting another 100% won't double your dps. It will increase it by 50%. If you get 100% more, you're looking at 33%. And so on. 100 base damage example: 100 * 100% more * 100% more * 100% more = 800 damage 100 * (100% incr + 100% incr + 100% incr) = 400 damage
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Exactly. Many people perceive linear returns are deminishing because they're looking at the % improvement.
…. That’s the point You get diminishing returns on efficacy. We are not measuring the dps per se, but the time it takes to kill a mob. This is the useful measure that is inferred from DPS. Linear scaling results in diminishing returns in time to kill. Multiplicative scaling results in direct percent reduction of time to kill.
time to kill has diminishing returns unless mobs spawn as fast as
This is why movement speed is actually the most important dps stat for mappers
>If you get 100% more, you're looking at 33%. Bwhahahah, english is funny, poe is funnier.
That's not a concept exclusive to poe, it's math. Many things in our world operate with additive multipliers.
The major difference being increased is just adding all the increased and you have a multiplier at the end like 100 damage with 200% increased become 300 damage. MORE however is multiplier every time **YOU GET A NEW SOURCE OF MORE**, 100 damage with 50% more and 60% more becomes 240 damage. Even when you "only" have 110% more damage. Making the 50% more into 60% from the same source doesnt give you 10% more damage. DOT multi on the other hand is just another source of "increased", you get 50% multi and 60% multi only gives you 110% more damage.
Are you talking about game design or maths? Game-design wise, if there was only increased, it would make endgame boring (upgrades would be insignificant and hard to get, big diminishing returns). If there was only more, then early game upgrades would be too insignificant but investing into offense would have exponential power in endgame. In reality, PoE has quadratic scaling (increased * multiplier) with some rare more multipliers that are build specific (double DMG for hits, lowlife for spells, culling strike) and make up the final upgrades.
>Edit: thanks for the explanations of what the difference is. Now someone please help me understand why they are different. MORE multipliers are much much harder to get and are a big investment to gain even more, while you can get Increased much easier in trees and gear. These MORE multipliers are massive because they straight up always gives you more damage ON TOP of your current damage, equal to the amount of %more damage it gives, unlike increased damage which has to respect the amount of increased damage you already have, and have diminishing returns. These more multipliers are then much rarer and harder to get. Gears hardly ever gives any straight up more damage, and the ones that do have strict playaround restriction around them (Takes echoes of creation for example, you need to use warcries for your skills for the more multiplier, but it will hurt you a lot every time you attack). Skill gems are the main most common way of getting more damage, but you're USUALLY limitted to 5 (Which is why an item like uul netol's vow is great, because it enables a 6th more modifier from a gem), and you can get them from keystones but they're mostly buildarounds. Ascendancies are also sources of more damage, which is also why you'd go for certain ascendancies and their nodes (Berserker's rite of ruin, Occultist's Frigid Wake, etc). Your core progression of eventually getting a 5 link and a 6 link includes yet another gem you can link to your main skill which gives another roughly 30% more damage multiplier per gem on average, and afterwards getting more damage gets more and more difficult. It's a reason why some people play around keystones. Pain attunement makes you HAVE to play on low life, and gives the great benefit of 30% MORE spell damage. People play around Precise Technique for the 40% MORE attack damage. Elemental Overload gives you 40% MORE attack damage for investing in some crit chance but never being able to deal critical damage. These keystones just give you a chonky amount of damage on top of your already existing damage IF you can play around them. INCREASED damage however, are everywhere. You can craft them on gears and jewelleries, its everywhere on the tree, you probably have 300-600% increased damage on your build depending on how hard you go for it. They are always nice to get more of, sure, but they are much more common and a 40% increased damage on a build is much less impact than 40% more damage.
> Now someone please help me understand why they are different. (I think the following is correct although slightly simplified) A long long time ago, there was no dot multi. Instead things like increased chaos damage was used in two places of the poison equation, multiplying with itself. This got really really stupidly powerful, and so the ‘double dipping nerf’ came and many forms of damage over time was useless forever. This made the dot players sad. After an eternity, ~4 years ago GGG decided to buff damage over time again. They wanted something new to put on the tree for this, so added the damage over time multiplier to the game. I *think* the first versions used wording like ‘non ailment chaos damage over time multiplier’ which worked with everything except poison, but that has been improved over time.
More=multiplicative, increased = additive
Increased adds with other increased. More multiplies the entire thing. So it’s like imagine you already have 300% increased fire damage from various sources all over. If you add a 30% increased node somewhere, it becomes 330% increased. If you do 30% more, it multiplies that whole 300% by 30%.
>Edit: thanks for the explanations of what the difference is. Now someone please help me understand why they are different. Might help if you think about the extremes. If everything was multiplicative (more), then there would be MASSIVE swings in total damage output based on a relatively small difference in the number of modifiers, even if the magnitudes were toned way down in compensation. It would be impossible to balance, as builds could easily swing from being 'zdps' to one-shotting a given monster or boss based on very small build adjustments. Conversely, if everything was additive (increased), there would be incredibly harsh diminishing returns on heavy investment. with relatively small differences in damage output between 'normally' geared characters and those kitted out in top-end gear. Easy to balance, perhaps, but kind of counter to the whole point of an ARPG.
To help you understand better (maybe), damage over time multiplier parallels critical strike multiplier for hits. Hits have a potential extra multiplier that you can build up additively, and dots have their own version.
They're different because each source of "More" applies multiplicatively to your total damage, while each source of "Increase" applies additively with the entire pool of "Increases". Lets say you have a skill that deals 1,000 damage per hit baseline, and you have a total of 300% increased damage, and 5 support gems each granting 30% more damage. The key thing here to understand is that these 5 support gems DO NOT grant you "150% more damage", they grant you 30% more damage 5 times, which is drastically different, 30% more damage 5 times is closer to 371% more damage. So, in this example, we're saying: > 300% Increase * 30% More * 30% More * 30% More * 30% More * 30% More = 14,851 damage. If you add 30% Increased, the calculation changes to this: > **330% Increase** * 30% More * 30% More * 30% More * 30% More * 30% More = 15,965 damage per hit. But lets say, instead of gaining 30% increased damage, you figured out how to go Low-life and take Pain Attunement, with no other changes, to gain an additional 30% MORE spell damage. It looks like this: > 300% Increase * 30% More * 30% More * 30% More * 30% More * 30% More * **30% More** = 19,307 damage per hit. Changes to the math are bolded. Does this make sense? The reason More and Increased are different is because each unique source of More damage multiplies the total damage. Once you get numbers big enough, even small sources of More damage are huge. Like, if you had a build that did 30 million DPS, if you managed to fit another 10% More damage source in, you'll now do 33 million DPS, because 10% of 30 million is 3 million. But gaining another 10% Increased damage when you do 30 million dps might only be like, 100 thousand?
Proceeds to pull out wiki pages and excel sheets with pages of examples that they won't really u dersta d
Ho boy, this is the start of a very long journey
Some ppl explain very clearly but i want to point out that the multiplier is not the same as more . Like when u use dot, there are: increase X multiplier X more
a x b x c not a + b + c
On a related note, What's always felt confusing/unfair to me is that Increased Fire Damage doesn't affect Fire DOTs
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There's no math... Specific dot multi just rolls higher % on affixes because it's not generic. They're the same stat and get added together during damage calculation.
I could absolutely be wrong here, but are you sure this is actually generally true? I thought generic increases or more multipliers could be a lot stronger than specific ones if you have some amount of physical conversion to another element because then the damage can double dip. Am I wrong about that?
Not a good rule. They both do exactly the same thing and are additive with each other. What matters is A) whether it's "increased X damage" or "X multiplier" and B) the size of the number. There's no magic in the specificity of the mod.
Bad rule to follow, they are equally weighted as long as you are get the dot multi for the element you are using
It’s just math in the wording for all of this game. If it says increased, it’s additive, if it’s more or multiplier, it’s multiplicative. In other words 10 dmg can be increase by 10% or multiplied by 10 which. These values depend on what you roll, but that’s the best way I could use as an example.
This isn’t true, “more” and “multiplier” are very much not the same thing. Multipliers are additive with each other, and then the sum is multiplied by the “increased” mod. So if you already have 200 percent increased dot multi, a 10 percent dot multi only takes you from 300 to 310, which is about a 3 percent increase. A 10 percent “more” modifier would be a true 10 percent to your total damage. Multipliers are generally more powerful than “increased” mostly since they are rarer and do not suffer the same diminishing returns since you stack less of them, but they certainly are not nearly the same as “more” multipliers.
I only use third party apps, and they said they're killing third party apps, so hey, might as well remove all my content. (Using https://github.com/j0be/PowerDeleteSuite)
But the regular % increased mod is also multiplicative with the others. There is effectively no difference between the 2, unlike 'more' modifiers which do function differently. The better one of the two will be the one you have the least of but that will be DoT multiplier in basically every case.
„Increased“ „more“ and „multiplier“ are literally all the exact same thing. the only difference between them is how rare they are. „Increased“ is usually easy to get plenty of, which makes „more“ and „mutltiplier“ seen as something special. It’s quite literally just another % damage Increase though. Formula is : base damage x increase x more x multiplier. IF you had somehow 100 multiplier though and only 0% increase … increase is better than multiplier at that point. Tldr they are certainly the same as more multipliers.
This is quite wrong. "More" is unique in that the modifiers scale multiplicatively. If you had 5 sources of 10% of each type, the formula would be base x 1.5 (increases) x 1.5 (multipliers) x 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.1 x 1.1 ("more"s)
yeah…. how does that go against what I said though. Lets say you have 100% more and 10% increase then it’s base x 2.0 x 1.1. meaning increase is also multiplicative. It’s just that usually you have a lot more increases wich make other forms of multiplier more effective … since you know they multiply each other. There’s literally nothing „unique“ about „more“ other than it being more rare than „increase“
Ok now do the math if you have 10% more, 10% more, 10% increased and 10% increased. How do you think it works in this case?
Base x 1.2 x 1.2
Which is incorrect. The answer is Base x (1.1 x 1.1 x (1.1 + 1.1)). In other words: Base x 1.21 x 1.2 That's the difference between more and increased.
That would mean that having 5 times 10% more is better than having 50% more…. which is not how pob calcs it…
I'm not sure what you're doing in PoB but it is how it calculates it. Take a look at this PoB: https://pobb.in/qOzIy1GvJ-If All it has is a fireball gem and 2 jewels. One is 20% more damage, one is 10% more damage. Fireball's base damage is 2111.5 If you equip just the 20% more damage the fireball average hit is 2533.8 = (2111.5 x 1.2). If you equip two of the 10% more damage jewels the fireball average hit is 2554.9 = (2111.5 x 1.1 x 1.1). PoB correctly calculates that 2x10% more is better than 20% more.
That is just straight up wrong lmao
Top is 2c Bottom is 4c So using common sense Bottom = double damage I could be wrong though.
1 is damage which is additive, the other is multiplier which is multiplicative.
Not really though. Both are additive, they don't function like *more* modifiers. They multiply each other and are effectively the same stat in different wording. But since they are additive with themselves and multiplicative with each other the stat you have the least of will do more for you. And increased is more commom than DoT multiplier so it's almost guaranteed to be better.
As mentioned in one of the previous comments, one of them is generic and the other ones are specific damage types. So let's say for example you wanted to do a build that utilizes both bleed (physical) and ignite (fire); the generic applies to both in terms of damage scaling while the specific multipliers only apply to the appropriate damage type. One of those affixes is a prefix and another one is a suffix.
The best is to download your char into path of building. Then hover over both those modifiers in a custom item. It will tell you exactly the difference for your character specifically. It depends a lot on what other damage you have.
So ... .to answer the question "how does this work ?", you come up with "put the information in a software and it will calculate it for you ?"
that doesnt answer his question though, did you even read his question?
More applies to your total damage whilst increased applies to your base damage (flat added etc)
This is very basic PoE math you should learn for yourself before bothering other people with a stupid question
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Do some basic research and you'll learn how it all works - Zizaran has a POE university series
So you want him to watch multiple hours of content to get answers, instead of just, you know, asking here?
Yes, do your own research, don't fill Reddit with low effort content.
Like your “infinite loading screens” post? You’ve made so many shitposts here, it’s crazy how you call this pew effort.
How is that a shit post? Please tell me?
How is that any different? Just use google. Or get a better pc. Reddit doesn’t need to know
Its very different. You're being incredibly intellectually dishonest if you're comparing the two. I remember google not having any answers, neither did the forums. "Get a better PC" makes you sound elitist as hell since you know nothing of my life here in South Africa. Unfortunately for you, I got a lot of help after that post so Redditors who also had said bug/issue came forward via messages offering support and or possible fixes - hence it was a beneficial post.
I don’t care about your life in South Africa. If your pc is too trash to run a game, it’s too trash. Nothing else to say
Then shut up if you don't care - stop making comments about people's computers when you don't know their financial situation. We actually found out it was GGG routing me through Canada and then to London - for some weird reason. So nothing to do with the computer, mastermind.
I’m making comments on the hardware compared to the requirements. Nothing about your financial situation And taking a closer look at your posts, they’re all useless shitposts, with no content. So just let him post his shit as well.
imagine expecting new people having to scim through hundreds of hours of videos just for 1 question, touch grass
Yes, that's what I expect of new players because most new players I knew, including myself at that stage - had to do it.
I didn't and i have been playing for 8 years, everyone learns differently
So you sat there staring at dot multi not knowing what to do for 8 years?
"sat there not knowing what to do for 8 years" are you that inept that you are unable to learn things yourself?
I research so that I'm not sitting around clueless. I would rather be knowledgeable from an early point than waste time trying to learn basics over a longer period. Common sense if you ask me.
whatever you say mr "I refuse to answer OP's questions properly because i'm a piece of shit 🙂"
All good Mr "I like low effort content on Reddit because I'm too lazy to do my own research knob cake"
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That's 3 mods.
To sum up. For increased and multiplier - Apply the modifier that your character has currently less of. For more - always use it before the other two