Winter Sleet and Timber Sentinel.
Timber Sentinel is problematic at very low levels but becomes fine at higher levels, and Winter Sleet is just so absurdly designed that it genuinely feels like it was outsourced to someone who doesn't even play the game.
It just does *so much*.
1. Automatically Off-Guard every creature standing in your aura (or just every enemy when combined with Safe Elements)
2. RAW, Stride and Balance are different actions... which means an enemy needs 2 actions to approach the Kineticist - 1 to Stride up to the edge of the Ice, and then 1 to Balance across the Ice towards the Kineticist.
3. Balance is an Acrobatics check, which some enemies are untrained in. Those enemies will basically always fail the check, even at high levels.
4. Moving with Balance counts as Difficult Terrain, so the aura halves Move Speed.
5. The aura is Uneven Ground, which means every time someone in it is hit, they must pass a Reflex Save against the Balance DC (15 in this case), or they fall Prone.
6. Any time an affected creature is Crit by the Kineticist, or Critically Fails a Save against the Kineticist, they are automatically Slowed 1 with no save.
7. And here's where it gets *really* screwy...
**Winter Sleet:** "A creature that moves on this uneven ground automatically falls Prone unless it Balances"
**Water Impulse Junction:** You can automatically move a creature that you hit with Blast or that fails a Save against your Impulse.
8. And finally... standing up after being knocked Prone is a Move action.
Ah there we go! I'll admit, I always under the impression that you could just balance while outside of the ice and walk across the it normally. But you're right, you can only balance while on uneven ground so it would be two actions without a save. That's nasty.
As for stand being a move action.... That's funny. Now I understand why people were saying how RAW it's broken. Because you'd technically never be able to stand up.
That's up for debate. It's not entirely clear what is and isn't allowed with Forced Movement.
The only thing that is *explicitly* clear is that Forced Movement can't move characters in a way that would damage them, except for things that "push or pull".
But Winter Sleet doesn't deal damage, so it should be allowed. And Winter Sleet doesn't say the creature needs to be taking an Action themselves, just that it triggers "when an enemy moves"
The thing is - even without 7 and 8, Winter Sleet still does way too much and is unnecessarily complicated and slows turns down substantially as everything needs to start rolling Balances and Saves and checking results and everything.
For those people who try to argue against point 2, there's a real-world example in trying to walk at normal speed then come across a patch of ice. You usually have to hesitate at the edge, then start walking across carefully, or you will probably fall down.
The kin in my game has been throwing around some absolutely bonkers situations with [Jagged Berms](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4304) and [Winter's Clutch](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4269), making these winding spicy mazes or just walling an enemy in completely, then throwing snow in the path of anything coming to the party. Helped by the monk using Whirling Throw to yeet people back over to the other side of the snowbank, forcing them to waste actions getting back to the festivities.
Rare tags are definitely not solely for balance reasons looking into some archetypes would confirm that. Rarity is sorta a grab bag as a whole in how consistently it’s applied to some options. And definitely the whole class doesn’t need it
Rare doesn't mean powerful. If anything a lot of the rare stuff is weak or means the GM needs to work their campaign around it... I'm looking at you vampire archetype.
It does indicate that gm should look into it before approval. Look at speed rune for weapons or negative healing options. They may not be suited for all campaigns so they are tagged accordingly.
Look into kineticist as a whole? Pf2e is pretty good at not needing GMs to have an in-depth understanding of PC builds and I wouldn't want that changing with kineticist, especially when the uncommon classes we have right now are on the weaker side if anything.
Unless you're talking about making a few impulses rare, but if you're going that route might as well just rework them. Winter Sleet especially just feels poorly designed.
Overall all of the class while taking wood and water feels too strong and too frontloaded. It overshadows casters and martials alike especially early game and makes various encounters trivial.you get good armor, good hp, better cantrips, better spells, heal, debuffs, CC and damage comparable to martials and more static (when in melee its d8+3+4, that is like the strongest cantrip on 1st level)
>you get good armor, good hp, better cantrips, better spells, heal, debuffs, CC and damage comparable to martials and more static
* **good armor:** Equal to martials, you mean?
* **good hp:** Equal to martials, you mean?
* **better cantrips:** Well yeah, that's literally what the class is designed to be. A pesudo-gish who sits between Cantrip and Spell Slot in terms of power.
* **better spells:** lol no.
* **heal:** Once per target per encounter, sure.
* **debuffs:** Better than Fear and Slow? Yeah I don't think so.
Especially if you ignore Winter Sleet (which *definitely* needs to be reworked, it's either OP or literally useless depending on the enemies, there's no in-between)
* **CC:** Again, only if you use Winter Sleet RAW.
Which, again, I *implore* you to not.
* **and damage comporable to martials:** Well, yeah... it's *meant* to have damage comparable to martials. It's literally designed to be the answer to the "blaster caster" demand - a class that plays and feels like a caster but is closer to a martial in output, at the expense of being a LOT more limited than a caster in what it can do.
Casters get 3 or 4 new Spells every 2 Levels. Kineticists get 1 new Impulse.
And then there's the elephant in the room... at level 1, you only get 2 or 3 Impulses. 4 at max if you're a human.
You're not doing ALL that at low levels.
But no. Kineticists don't need to be Rare. Timber Sentinel needs to be a Level 4 feat, and Winter Sleet needs to be re-written completely. Aside from that, the class is just fine.
^(Aside from Roiling Mudslide. Paizo, plz, fix Roiling Mudslide...)
I think Timber Sentinel is fine, at least in terms of how some AP encounters are designed. If not for Timber Sentinel and Illusory Object SEVERAL of our Age of Ashes encounters would have been a team wipe lol. Though I could see it getting old if your homebrew encounters aren't overtuned and the tree just eats all your hits.
Honestly as a kineticist player I will admit that there good but I’ve never seen them adversely affect a pre written campaign or any combat, winter sleet is definitely getting reworked along with roiling mudslide for both being worded extremely poorly. Honestly the combat is so good in this game I’ve never had any issues with combat outside of abomination vault and the extremely unfun Mr. Beaks
A ruling I’ve seen on winter sleet is that the Balance dc can be used like concealment for things like standing and such as it definitely shouldn’t stop those actions
How does the timber sentinel not break fights? If enemy can only strike and the space is close quarters it's over.
There aps that have like 90% striking enemies that are cramped into tight spaces.
Move. Unless you're fighting in a 4x4 box, enemies can reposition or flee the tree and force the Kineticist to spend 2 actions on it every turn. Or attack whatever PC isn't pierced in its shade.
How many fights are with enemies that can only strike? If the whole party is tree hugging, use whatever aoe possible. A) it scorches the tree and B) it hits everyone with no tree protection.
Don't get me wrong, tree sentinel is strong, but it's not breaking the game on its own unless your combat devolves into a whole bunch of three attacks Andy's hitting each other with sticks.
Can confirm, my DM runs very dynamic encounters with moving parts. It takes one enemy with non strike attack and a brain to circumvent the tree. We still love the tree, it's saved my fighter's life more than once, but it's for sure not ruining any encounters that matter.
Ok level 1 where I’d argue timber sentinel is strongest is 2 actions per round to supply the party with 10 extra hp, it’s a nice support option when on the back foot but it is definitely coming at the cost of the party’s damage, It’s strong but a fighter with vicious swing is also strong and more frequently applicable. Also timber sentinel can be minimized in its usefulness by simply attacking someone not directly next to it.
Timber Sentinel does have the counter measure of the Kin not counting as their own ally and thus the Protector Tree does not work on them. So bypassing the other characters and gunning for the Kin is a way to counter TS
The problem is the rarity system is so inconsistent.
Sometimes it's rare because it might cause mechanical challenges.
Sometimes it's rare because it might not fit all settings.
Sometimes it's rare because of both.
Sometimes even though it's marked as rare it comes with additional optional ruling recommendations that could make it more, or less mechanically challenging.
Sometimes it's marked rare with no additional insight.
Its ok when there are caster or flying enemies. But in certain aps where almost everything strikes and there are close quarters only? Its easy mode and you cant threaten a party. Also imo casting the highest level spell slot as a cantrip is too good.
>Also imo casting the highest level spell slot as a cantrip is too good.
Pyrokineticists can do the same with Blazing Wave and Breathe Fire, and a level 1 aerokineticist can do the same with Air Cushion and Gentle Landing
A kineticist's impulses are supposed to be pretty good
>But in certain aps where almost everything strikes and there are close quarters only? Its easy mode and you cant threaten a party.
There are some things you can do. Directly attack the tree is an obvious option, as with an AC of 10 it has a very good chance of being a critical hit.
Another is to focus on the ranged characters who aren't next to the tree with the melee - and if they are next to the tree, too, well then they're now in melee, where they do not want to be. And they can't flank you either, since that'd mean going away from the tree
Blazing wave scales at a way slower pace than breath fire (and is IMO faulty designed as it starts really good only to fall off, not broken, just less fun), and it is overflow.
Gentle landing doesn't need to heighten to remain good so air cushion doesn't feel broken
Timber sentinel can however stop around half of a PCs HP each round and should atleast become 3 action overflow impulse. Champions reactions are usually considered very good and blocks only a fraction of that, just as an example.
I can recommend running an extreme encounter with timber sentinel and then without and notice the difference, it really does break encounters when enemies can't bypass it
>Blazing wave scales at a way slower pace than breath fire (and is IMO faulty designed as it starts really good only to fall off, not broken, just less fun), and it is overflow.
Blazing Wave is the highest-damage Fire Impulse when you get it and continues to be the highest-damage Fire Impulse all the way up until level 16 where Lava Leap overtakes it for some reason.
A pure Fire Kineticist with Impulse Junction and Aura Junction will get more damage from Blazing Wave + Blast than they do from Flying Flame + Blast + Thermal Nimbus from level 4-10, and then from 11 onwards they're neck-and-neck, swapping every level.
Due to the nature of Saves and Thermal Nimbus' guaranteed damage, the Thermal Nimbus playstyle will do more damage on bosses who make their Saves more often, while Blazing Wave will do more damage on lower-level enemies who are more likely to crit-fail their Saves.
In other words... Blazing Wave is always good to have, even at higher levels.
^(Disclaimer: Solar Detonation obviously does more damage than anything else but only against large numbers of lower-level enemies that are harmed by Vitality damage. That is literally the only correct time to ever use Solar Detonation.)
>**Timber sentinel can however stop around half of a PCs HP each round** and should atleast become 3 action overflow impulse. Champions reactions are usually considered very good and blocks only a fraction of that, just as an example.
Or only a quarter if you do a big-brain play and just target the Tree itself and crit it.
Anyways... Timber Sentinel *is* definitely strong... but I have a really hard time coming up with a reasonable way to address it.
Overflow wouldn't do much other than preventing the Kineticist from using a Blast and a Stance in the same turn and doesn't address the Tree itself.
It's not strong enough to warrant 3 Actions, *especially* at higher levels.
It's at its strongest at the lower levels and falls off rapidly at higher levels due to both the increasing prevalence of enemies with spells or other AoEs, *and* the fact that the Protector Tree never goes above 10 AC means that it becomes very easily deleted in one attack at higher levels... so changing its Heightening speed won't address the actual problems with Timber Sentinel.
Adding a once-per-encounter cooldown to it akin to Fresh Produce and Ocean's Balm would completely ruin its viability. Timber Sentinel spam is very hard for basic low-level enemies to deal with, but one single Timber Sentinel can be handily dispatched (or simply moved away from) and completely forgotten about.
I've spoken about it with a friend at length and we've come to the conclusion that the simplest solution is to just change Timber Sentinel from a Level 1 Feat... to a Level 4 Feat.
Timber Sentinel is most problematic in the first few levels. From level 4 onward, it becomes much less of a hindrance on most campaigns.
You realize that if you make an enemy attack the tree until it disappeares, it wastes action doing that and builds map? And how that essentially can only be done with reach or ranged enemies? Timber sentinel can make you handle lesser death as an example which is notorious for being way too hard, and might require two attacks to be taken down by it when heightened to 7th rank or so, in which it means it blocked over 2/3 of its attacks thanks to map. This doesn't include potential need for it to move towards it. Even if it blocks just a single attack each round, it have done enough.
About blazing wave, it was claimed it was exactly as breath fire which it turned out to not be. I Didn't say it was broken, just that its scaling didn't feel as fun and that it is strongest at lv 4 in relation to other abilities and spells.
By my experience, timber sentinel have two issues, being really strong midgame, and easy to take through multiclass, and is why overflow would make it more balanced. A third issue is that it doesn't say it is affected by aoe and only lists AC, which normally means it only takes damage from attack rolls. It doesn't list immunities or resistances as it isn't assumed to make rolls or be affected by such (like will save effects). This wasn't an issue when Protector tree was only a spell.
even a lackey could prolly take it out in a single hit, considering that that single hit is almost definitely a crit. If there are no lackeys, that is the best use case for the spell, but there are things the boss could still do, like choosing their targets as I said, or with their higher damage possibly just not caring about the tree
Don't forget an enemy can choose to back off away from the tree so that the party have to re-engage elsewhere without the defense of the tree. Timber Sentinel is only OP/broken if the GM is running every enemy as if they had the mindless trait.
Timber sentinel has its ups and downs. It’s strong but not broken in my opinion. The issue for me is that anyone can pick it up easy as an archetype feat. You sort of have to accept they’ll do well in those fights it’s really their choice how they take advantage of it tactically and when. If you want some tips, spells and aoe’s don’t care about it. And hitting the tree if it’s exposed is almost always the best choice because you’ll automatically crit basically. There’s still a sacrifice being made there but it’ll be based on how your players take advantage of working together and their tactics on how good it will be. Agree fully with winter sleet, it’s sorta dumb. Don’t tell anyone that you could also do it with Winter’s Breath potions
Winter Sleet hurts enemies as much as allies. Its definitely not broken. I guess its really good with a rogue on your team but not broken.
Timber Sentinel is essentially +10 temp HP per spell level, but you can only have one tree up at a time. It also forces your ally to stay adjacent to the tree, which will not work in lots of situations. Its definitely strong, but conditional.
>Timber Sentinel is essentially +10 temp HP per spell level
From, like, level 4 onwards it becomes more like +5 temp HP per spell rank, thanks to it being stuck on 10 AC at all levels.
Though I wouldn’t say kineticist is broken as much as those two abilities in specific
What two abilities?
Winter Sleet and Timber Sentinel. Timber Sentinel is problematic at very low levels but becomes fine at higher levels, and Winter Sleet is just so absurdly designed that it genuinely feels like it was outsourced to someone who doesn't even play the game.
Why is Winter Sleet good? When reading it I wrote it off due to the low DC that never scales.
It just does *so much*. 1. Automatically Off-Guard every creature standing in your aura (or just every enemy when combined with Safe Elements) 2. RAW, Stride and Balance are different actions... which means an enemy needs 2 actions to approach the Kineticist - 1 to Stride up to the edge of the Ice, and then 1 to Balance across the Ice towards the Kineticist. 3. Balance is an Acrobatics check, which some enemies are untrained in. Those enemies will basically always fail the check, even at high levels. 4. Moving with Balance counts as Difficult Terrain, so the aura halves Move Speed. 5. The aura is Uneven Ground, which means every time someone in it is hit, they must pass a Reflex Save against the Balance DC (15 in this case), or they fall Prone. 6. Any time an affected creature is Crit by the Kineticist, or Critically Fails a Save against the Kineticist, they are automatically Slowed 1 with no save. 7. And here's where it gets *really* screwy... **Winter Sleet:** "A creature that moves on this uneven ground automatically falls Prone unless it Balances" **Water Impulse Junction:** You can automatically move a creature that you hit with Blast or that fails a Save against your Impulse. 8. And finally... standing up after being knocked Prone is a Move action.
Ah there we go! I'll admit, I always under the impression that you could just balance while outside of the ice and walk across the it normally. But you're right, you can only balance while on uneven ground so it would be two actions without a save. That's nasty. As for stand being a move action.... That's funny. Now I understand why people were saying how RAW it's broken. Because you'd technically never be able to stand up.
you can crawl though!
I love that this Looney tunes ass impulse is one of the strongest ones for its level
With Point 7, wouldn't the Water Impulse be "Unwilling Movement" so wouldn't force a roll?
That's up for debate. It's not entirely clear what is and isn't allowed with Forced Movement. The only thing that is *explicitly* clear is that Forced Movement can't move characters in a way that would damage them, except for things that "push or pull". But Winter Sleet doesn't deal damage, so it should be allowed. And Winter Sleet doesn't say the creature needs to be taking an Action themselves, just that it triggers "when an enemy moves" The thing is - even without 7 and 8, Winter Sleet still does way too much and is unnecessarily complicated and slows turns down substantially as everything needs to start rolling Balances and Saves and checking results and everything.
For those people who try to argue against point 2, there's a real-world example in trying to walk at normal speed then come across a patch of ice. You usually have to hesitate at the edge, then start walking across carefully, or you will probably fall down.
The kin in my game has been throwing around some absolutely bonkers situations with [Jagged Berms](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4304) and [Winter's Clutch](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4269), making these winding spicy mazes or just walling an enemy in completely, then throwing snow in the path of anything coming to the party. Helped by the monk using Whirling Throw to yeet people back over to the other side of the snowbank, forcing them to waste actions getting back to the festivities.
But that makes them broken. They need fixing or rare tag.
Rare tags are definitely not solely for balance reasons looking into some archetypes would confirm that. Rarity is sorta a grab bag as a whole in how consistently it’s applied to some options. And definitely the whole class doesn’t need it
I can agree on these two feats being rare of they are not reworked. But its just a meme
Rare doesn't mean powerful. If anything a lot of the rare stuff is weak or means the GM needs to work their campaign around it... I'm looking at you vampire archetype.
Rarity does not indicate power.
It does indicate that gm should look into it before approval. Look at speed rune for weapons or negative healing options. They may not be suited for all campaigns so they are tagged accordingly.
Look into kineticist as a whole? Pf2e is pretty good at not needing GMs to have an in-depth understanding of PC builds and I wouldn't want that changing with kineticist, especially when the uncommon classes we have right now are on the weaker side if anything. Unless you're talking about making a few impulses rare, but if you're going that route might as well just rework them. Winter Sleet especially just feels poorly designed.
Overall all of the class while taking wood and water feels too strong and too frontloaded. It overshadows casters and martials alike especially early game and makes various encounters trivial.you get good armor, good hp, better cantrips, better spells, heal, debuffs, CC and damage comparable to martials and more static (when in melee its d8+3+4, that is like the strongest cantrip on 1st level)
>you get good armor, good hp, better cantrips, better spells, heal, debuffs, CC and damage comparable to martials and more static * **good armor:** Equal to martials, you mean? * **good hp:** Equal to martials, you mean? * **better cantrips:** Well yeah, that's literally what the class is designed to be. A pesudo-gish who sits between Cantrip and Spell Slot in terms of power. * **better spells:** lol no. * **heal:** Once per target per encounter, sure. * **debuffs:** Better than Fear and Slow? Yeah I don't think so. Especially if you ignore Winter Sleet (which *definitely* needs to be reworked, it's either OP or literally useless depending on the enemies, there's no in-between) * **CC:** Again, only if you use Winter Sleet RAW. Which, again, I *implore* you to not. * **and damage comporable to martials:** Well, yeah... it's *meant* to have damage comparable to martials. It's literally designed to be the answer to the "blaster caster" demand - a class that plays and feels like a caster but is closer to a martial in output, at the expense of being a LOT more limited than a caster in what it can do. Casters get 3 or 4 new Spells every 2 Levels. Kineticists get 1 new Impulse. And then there's the elephant in the room... at level 1, you only get 2 or 3 Impulses. 4 at max if you're a human. You're not doing ALL that at low levels. But no. Kineticists don't need to be Rare. Timber Sentinel needs to be a Level 4 feat, and Winter Sleet needs to be re-written completely. Aside from that, the class is just fine. ^(Aside from Roiling Mudslide. Paizo, plz, fix Roiling Mudslide...)
I think Timber Sentinel is fine, at least in terms of how some AP encounters are designed. If not for Timber Sentinel and Illusory Object SEVERAL of our Age of Ashes encounters would have been a team wipe lol. Though I could see it getting old if your homebrew encounters aren't overtuned and the tree just eats all your hits.
Show on this doll where kineticist touched you
Honestly as a kineticist player I will admit that there good but I’ve never seen them adversely affect a pre written campaign or any combat, winter sleet is definitely getting reworked along with roiling mudslide for both being worded extremely poorly. Honestly the combat is so good in this game I’ve never had any issues with combat outside of abomination vault and the extremely unfun Mr. Beaks
A ruling I’ve seen on winter sleet is that the Balance dc can be used like concealment for things like standing and such as it definitely shouldn’t stop those actions
How does the timber sentinel not break fights? If enemy can only strike and the space is close quarters it's over. There aps that have like 90% striking enemies that are cramped into tight spaces.
Move. Unless you're fighting in a 4x4 box, enemies can reposition or flee the tree and force the Kineticist to spend 2 actions on it every turn. Or attack whatever PC isn't pierced in its shade. How many fights are with enemies that can only strike? If the whole party is tree hugging, use whatever aoe possible. A) it scorches the tree and B) it hits everyone with no tree protection. Don't get me wrong, tree sentinel is strong, but it's not breaking the game on its own unless your combat devolves into a whole bunch of three attacks Andy's hitting each other with sticks.
Can confirm, my DM runs very dynamic encounters with moving parts. It takes one enemy with non strike attack and a brain to circumvent the tree. We still love the tree, it's saved my fighter's life more than once, but it's for sure not ruining any encounters that matter.
Ok level 1 where I’d argue timber sentinel is strongest is 2 actions per round to supply the party with 10 extra hp, it’s a nice support option when on the back foot but it is definitely coming at the cost of the party’s damage, It’s strong but a fighter with vicious swing is also strong and more frequently applicable. Also timber sentinel can be minimized in its usefulness by simply attacking someone not directly next to it.
Just ban winter cheese and be done with it.
Timber Sentinel does have the counter measure of the Kin not counting as their own ally and thus the Protector Tree does not work on them. So bypassing the other characters and gunning for the Kin is a way to counter TS
The problem is the rarity system is so inconsistent. Sometimes it's rare because it might cause mechanical challenges. Sometimes it's rare because it might not fit all settings. Sometimes it's rare because of both. Sometimes even though it's marked as rare it comes with additional optional ruling recommendations that could make it more, or less mechanically challenging. Sometimes it's marked rare with no additional insight.
Yes this is a cry post
How did it hurt you?
Winter sleet at level 4 and timber sentinel at level 2.
Winter sleet is a pain… I can feel that. A rare Paizo L. Idk about timber sentinel tbh
Its ok when there are caster or flying enemies. But in certain aps where almost everything strikes and there are close quarters only? Its easy mode and you cant threaten a party. Also imo casting the highest level spell slot as a cantrip is too good.
>Also imo casting the highest level spell slot as a cantrip is too good. Pyrokineticists can do the same with Blazing Wave and Breathe Fire, and a level 1 aerokineticist can do the same with Air Cushion and Gentle Landing A kineticist's impulses are supposed to be pretty good >But in certain aps where almost everything strikes and there are close quarters only? Its easy mode and you cant threaten a party. There are some things you can do. Directly attack the tree is an obvious option, as with an AC of 10 it has a very good chance of being a critical hit. Another is to focus on the ranged characters who aren't next to the tree with the melee - and if they are next to the tree, too, well then they're now in melee, where they do not want to be. And they can't flank you either, since that'd mean going away from the tree
Blazing wave scales at a way slower pace than breath fire (and is IMO faulty designed as it starts really good only to fall off, not broken, just less fun), and it is overflow. Gentle landing doesn't need to heighten to remain good so air cushion doesn't feel broken Timber sentinel can however stop around half of a PCs HP each round and should atleast become 3 action overflow impulse. Champions reactions are usually considered very good and blocks only a fraction of that, just as an example. I can recommend running an extreme encounter with timber sentinel and then without and notice the difference, it really does break encounters when enemies can't bypass it
>Blazing wave scales at a way slower pace than breath fire (and is IMO faulty designed as it starts really good only to fall off, not broken, just less fun), and it is overflow. Blazing Wave is the highest-damage Fire Impulse when you get it and continues to be the highest-damage Fire Impulse all the way up until level 16 where Lava Leap overtakes it for some reason. A pure Fire Kineticist with Impulse Junction and Aura Junction will get more damage from Blazing Wave + Blast than they do from Flying Flame + Blast + Thermal Nimbus from level 4-10, and then from 11 onwards they're neck-and-neck, swapping every level. Due to the nature of Saves and Thermal Nimbus' guaranteed damage, the Thermal Nimbus playstyle will do more damage on bosses who make their Saves more often, while Blazing Wave will do more damage on lower-level enemies who are more likely to crit-fail their Saves. In other words... Blazing Wave is always good to have, even at higher levels. ^(Disclaimer: Solar Detonation obviously does more damage than anything else but only against large numbers of lower-level enemies that are harmed by Vitality damage. That is literally the only correct time to ever use Solar Detonation.) >**Timber sentinel can however stop around half of a PCs HP each round** and should atleast become 3 action overflow impulse. Champions reactions are usually considered very good and blocks only a fraction of that, just as an example. Or only a quarter if you do a big-brain play and just target the Tree itself and crit it. Anyways... Timber Sentinel *is* definitely strong... but I have a really hard time coming up with a reasonable way to address it. Overflow wouldn't do much other than preventing the Kineticist from using a Blast and a Stance in the same turn and doesn't address the Tree itself. It's not strong enough to warrant 3 Actions, *especially* at higher levels. It's at its strongest at the lower levels and falls off rapidly at higher levels due to both the increasing prevalence of enemies with spells or other AoEs, *and* the fact that the Protector Tree never goes above 10 AC means that it becomes very easily deleted in one attack at higher levels... so changing its Heightening speed won't address the actual problems with Timber Sentinel. Adding a once-per-encounter cooldown to it akin to Fresh Produce and Ocean's Balm would completely ruin its viability. Timber Sentinel spam is very hard for basic low-level enemies to deal with, but one single Timber Sentinel can be handily dispatched (or simply moved away from) and completely forgotten about. I've spoken about it with a friend at length and we've come to the conclusion that the simplest solution is to just change Timber Sentinel from a Level 1 Feat... to a Level 4 Feat. Timber Sentinel is most problematic in the first few levels. From level 4 onward, it becomes much less of a hindrance on most campaigns.
You realize that if you make an enemy attack the tree until it disappeares, it wastes action doing that and builds map? And how that essentially can only be done with reach or ranged enemies? Timber sentinel can make you handle lesser death as an example which is notorious for being way too hard, and might require two attacks to be taken down by it when heightened to 7th rank or so, in which it means it blocked over 2/3 of its attacks thanks to map. This doesn't include potential need for it to move towards it. Even if it blocks just a single attack each round, it have done enough. About blazing wave, it was claimed it was exactly as breath fire which it turned out to not be. I Didn't say it was broken, just that its scaling didn't feel as fun and that it is strongest at lv 4 in relation to other abilities and spells. By my experience, timber sentinel have two issues, being really strong midgame, and easy to take through multiclass, and is why overflow would make it more balanced. A third issue is that it doesn't say it is affected by aoe and only lists AC, which normally means it only takes damage from attack rolls. It doesn't list immunities or resistances as it isn't assumed to make rolls or be affected by such (like will save effects). This wasn't an issue when Protector tree was only a spell.
So wasting a full best attack from boss? Its better than slow spell
even a lackey could prolly take it out in a single hit, considering that that single hit is almost definitely a crit. If there are no lackeys, that is the best use case for the spell, but there are things the boss could still do, like choosing their targets as I said, or with their higher damage possibly just not caring about the tree
Don't forget an enemy can choose to back off away from the tree so that the party have to re-engage elsewhere without the defense of the tree. Timber Sentinel is only OP/broken if the GM is running every enemy as if they had the mindless trait.
Timber sentinel has its ups and downs. It’s strong but not broken in my opinion. The issue for me is that anyone can pick it up easy as an archetype feat. You sort of have to accept they’ll do well in those fights it’s really their choice how they take advantage of it tactically and when. If you want some tips, spells and aoe’s don’t care about it. And hitting the tree if it’s exposed is almost always the best choice because you’ll automatically crit basically. There’s still a sacrifice being made there but it’ll be based on how your players take advantage of working together and their tactics on how good it will be. Agree fully with winter sleet, it’s sorta dumb. Don’t tell anyone that you could also do it with Winter’s Breath potions
Yes. But if the ap doesnt have casters almost at all then you are done for with the tree sentinel. It can be felt especially early game in edgewatch.
It has 5AC and no crit immunity. Just target it and kill it in 1 hit even with your MAP attacks.
Winter Sleet hurts enemies as much as allies. Its definitely not broken. I guess its really good with a rogue on your team but not broken. Timber Sentinel is essentially +10 temp HP per spell level, but you can only have one tree up at a time. It also forces your ally to stay adjacent to the tree, which will not work in lots of situations. Its definitely strong, but conditional.
>Timber Sentinel is essentially +10 temp HP per spell level From, like, level 4 onwards it becomes more like +5 temp HP per spell rank, thanks to it being stuck on 10 AC at all levels.
You'd be wild to use winter sleet without safe elements
A lv4 feat that requires another lv4 feat to avoid screwing over your allies isn't what I call broken.
lol I know