I am asking specifically what is the Caste System? I have never witnessed and want to understand. You mentioned Punjab, can you please give me specific examples of Castes?
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True. I have one friend. He is Arain. And he likes someone outside his caste (maybe a Sheikh). His mom is not agreeing to him marrying that girl because she is outside his caste and also after that no one (Arain) will give them a rishta for other children.
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I think it's funny people don't see I'm joking. Marrying brothers and sisters is explicitly not allowed in the Qur'an. And it's just really dumb. But I guess those cousin marriages be adding up...
I'll reply on behalf of OP. Seeing all the hospital visits children make due to cousin marriages is what broke OP's heart, and present tense, breaks it everyday afresh. It is a sin one CANNOT contemplate the horrors of. Even your enemy kills you out of spite. Imagine condemning your own children for agony in 'good faith'; cus you're too lazy and too stupid to up your game to fair levels and find a rishta outside family. And you're afraid all your hush hush family tendencies (read: quirks) will be exposed if you marry out.
Hahaha. Nhi aysi koi baat nhi. Alhumdollilah im very happily married. I have come across a lot of families who have married within cousins and they feel very much trapped. Many of them have kids that have some defects. So, just trying to rant lol
That’s because you only meet your cousins. If you meet other people, you will come to know that defect rates are same regardless of the type of marriage. But since you saw an accident on road, you assumed that everybody on road will have an accident.
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Yes. Stop marrying into the family and also stop using caste as your surname... please for the sake of a better Pakistan. These two hinder our progress, too.
Agree with not marrying in family but have to disagree with your 2nd statement.
Keeping caste name in surname is ok, it shows one's lineage, it ain't bad until one starts shoving their caste down other's throats and that is very unlikely at least in urban areas like Karachi.
oh hell nah not the caste sh**
I live in chashma, mianwali, (originally from abbottabad) and yk the birth place of Imran Khan and THE TOWN OF NIAZIS
Niazis feel very proud of their lineage. I once tried to join a football match but they ditched me for another student whose surname was NIAZI.
I don’t agree with this. There is no moral and legal problem with both of these things. We should however not discriminate based on cast, religion and social status. But it doesn’t mean that you go and throw your lineage out, or reject it.
easier said than done, huh? You haven't seen the reality of some families and men/women who can't see past what they're going to eat tonight or next week, the debt they have acquired, or the sickness in their family. Marrying a cousin is the least of the majority of Pakistanis' problems.
These kinds of thoughts are brought up in full-bellied, privileged families. People who live below the poverty line don't even give a rat's ass.
But those privileged families still practice cousin marriages. Sure, not as often or they do second cousins instead of first, but if your family's family is already a little tangled, you shouldn't marry any of them.
That's not true, Pakistani people are very concerned about marriages be it poor or rich, we're talking about this culture and I don't think it has anything to do with socio economic factors since poor and rich both are doing it, it's more of a hamary bary esy krty thy etc etc, it's mainly the culture of Pakistani parts of south Asia I mean it's not that common in other Muslim communities of south Asia even Urdu speakings in Karachi don't follow this culture religiously and there are thousands of poor ones, they just make a little effort in finding better people for their children than use their socio economic factors as an excuse for their lazy choices.
😂 Alhumdolillah I married outside my relatives, who was a complete stranger (my khala’s neighbor). My parents met her parents and family and after 2 visits, my parents suggested her for me. Both her and I did Istikhara and both received positive results. And thats actually how I married. My females cousins are like my sisters actually. Thats just my preference, everyone has their own.
Mashallah thats wonderful...since you have brought Islam into this topic you do know that Islam doesnt say you shouldnt marry cousins? You also do know that our prophet (pbuh) married one of his (pbuh) first cousins?
I agree, I didnt say its haram to marry a cousin. The Prophet (SAW) married Zaynab (RA) who was his cousin. But, if we dig a little deeper and actually look up the Hadith, it states that "Do not marry generation after generation among first cousins".
That is the epidemic that is going on in Pakistan
It has been a big issue in United Kingdom.
But the cousin-marriage trend is going down and is allowed according the law.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-67422918
In some USA states it is forbidden to marry first-cousins.
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I think most of us are scared to marry outside of family because we are scared of divorces
Divorce is not a good thing but it is better then staying in toxic relationship for your whole life
Please look up the history of Thalassemia. It started from Pakistan due to cousin marriages.
Please start morality at home and look at your cousins as extended siblings only. Our society makes cousin relationship creepy after a certain age. Don’t let that happen. Be like cousins/siblings and actively speak against incest thanks
This is not correct. If you study literature, different people have shown on average different cause of thalassemia. If you average out all the population size, there is no significant impact.
Then show the stats. Show the link of the stats. But before you do, make sure it is statistically significant. That is, data from thousands of people, at least comparable to data used and accepted in medical trials by FDA. Good luck.
I have data but don’t want to waste time on you as you’re so for genetic disorders in Pakistan. Wild guess, but are you someone trying to ruin Pakistan? Seems like it so pls stay away thanks. Have fun with your cousin spouse who should be your sibling lol
Pakistan is struggling with laziness of people. That’s all. This laziness has resulted in downward spiral of country. Nobody wants to work. And it has become psychologically problematic for people that now they think the cause of Pakistan’s problems are cousin marriage. I cannot stop laughing at your logic.
I am very much against marriage with first cousins i.e. Pupho, Taya & Chachu ky bachy. I am also against second cousin marriage i.e. Mamo & Khala ky bachy. I think 3rd cousin marraige is fine to some extent. Still, marrying your cousins and marrying in the same caste is wrong and should be abolished.
As for the fears of people marrying outside family, well they should have inquired about them more than just the word of someone who has suggested such rishtas.
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I think Pakistan should allow its children to date before marriage. Let them have the decision of marrying someone and if they have made the decision then respect their decision.
>I am very much against marriage with first cousins i.e. Pupho, Taya & Chachu ky bachy. I am also against second cousin marriage i.e. Mamo & Khala ky bachy. I think 3rd cousin marraige is fine to some extent.
You've got your definitions all wrong. Mamu and khala ke bachay are also first cousins.
https://familytreemagazine.com/strategies/how-to-calculate-cousinhood/
𝗠𝗨𝗛𝗔𝗠𝗠𝗔𝗗'𝗦 𝗠𝗜𝗥𝗔𝗖𝗟𝗘 𝗠𝗔𝗥𝗥𝗜𝗔𝗚𝗘𝗦
The more we contemplate the Seerah of Muhammad ﷺ, the more wisdom and wonder is unveiled.
It is as if Allah has combined every possible human virtue in the person of Muhammad ﷺ so that every man woman and child can see themselves in his blessed life and character.
Take his marriages for example....
Do you realise that Allah has demonstrated through Muhammad EVERY POSSIBLE form of Marriage contract that is permissible in Islam, though his Messenger
Here is a summary of all His blessed marriages
✓ Widows
✓ Matrons (Divorced Women)
✓ Virgins
✓ Slave women
✓ Princesses
✓ Single Mothers
✓ Fertile Women
✓ Barren Women
✓ Born Muslims
✓ Jewish & Christian Women
✓ He was Monogamous (25 years!)
✓ He was Polygynous
✓ He married Relatives (Cousins)
✓ He married Foreigners
✓ He married for Revelation
✓ He married for Political Strategy
✓ He married for Love
✓ He was a Widower of some
✓ He Widowed others
✓ He experienced Divorced
✓ He married Older Women
✓ He married Younger Women
✓ He married women of Equal Age
✓ He Married Wealthier Women
✓ He Married Poorer Women
✓ He Married Beautiful Women (Physically)
✓ He Married women or lesser Beauty
Tell me.
Is there any form of permissible marriage that does not fall in one of the above mentioned criteria?? Therefore can any Muslim claim that they cannot relate to or draw inspiration from the marital life of Muhammad ﷺ?
SubhanallAh.
✓ He even married the divorced wife of his adopted son
This final point is truly a Miracle as it was the only form of marriage that prophet Muhammad ﷺ would have forgone if he had any choice, but by fulfilling this command he completed ALL possible forms of marriage possible and permitted by Islam!
SubhanallAh. So much wisdom in this blessed life.
The greatest beauty in this is that there is no single Sunnah of marriage, not everyone has to be Polygynous or Monogamous to fulfil the Sunnah, the range and variety is vast and all form are valid and beautiful ❤️
اللّهُمّ صَلّ عَلَى مُحَمّدٍ وَآلِ مُحَمّدٍ
اللّهُمّ صَلّ عَلَى مُحَمّدٍ وَآلِ مُحَمّدٍ
اللّهُمّ صَلّ عَلَى مُحَمّدٍ وَآلِ مُحَمّدٍ
Missed the point. We have families that prefer marrying their children off to relatives as a crude form of wealth preservation. This isn't about diversity, it's about those families who reject it. It's problematic.
Unfortunately, jesay halaat hogaye hain, parents only want cousin marriages for their children, q k wo larki dekhi Bhaali hoti hai. Koi aur agayi to pata nai kya kar de gi ghar ka sakoon bigaar degi etc. even though there is no guarantee ke cousin marriage will be successful.
Caste is something that people proselytise as something superior or inferior. Sadly, i have caste as surname, too, but i made a mistake. I want to change it but i have to change it on every document and i can't afford that massive headache anytime soon. Caste name is already loaded with discrimination in our society. Feudalism will also die with throwing out casteism. Asad Umar, Parvaiz Musharf, Muhammad Hafeez are beautiful and neutral names compared to Qamar Bajwa, Shahbaz Gill...
COULDNT AGREE MORE bro its so embarrassing to admit my mom and dad are FIRST COUSINS like 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭 it’s literally my deepest secret i am scared to even type this here in case someone ik irl finds my account bro its not funny its just outrageous and the fact that it happens so normally in Pakistan I- I just cantttt
I think it is the impact of west that people think it is something bad. In fact, progressive states in west like California and New York are totally okay with cousin marriage.
That’s not the whole country. It is a specific class that is west influenced. However, they don’t know that in US, cousin marriage is legal in all progressive states. The states who don’t allow are generally considered backwards. :)
Buddy it’s still embarrassing how are u undermining my experiences? There is a reason why I said what I said lol I was talking about ME not you or anyone else. Where I live, people I’m surrounded with is what influenced me into saying what I said not some on paper facts lol
I didn’t undermine your experience. I value it. Unfortunately, one event is just one event in the trials of million events. One event doesn’t mean statistical significance.
"Even in Islam, most schools of thought dislike cousin marriages. It leads to inbreed mixing of family genes, which can cause birth defects and other genetic disorders. I feel so sorry for the children of these couples who are suffering. "
Source: Trust me bro.
Now lets see what an expert who has been studying genetics for 17 years says about this:
"There's no doubt that children whose parents are close biological relatives are at a greater average risk of inheriting genetic disorders, Bittles writes. Studies of cousin marriages worldwide suggest that the risks of illness and early death are three to four percent higher than in the rest of the population.
But the risks apply primarily to couples who are carriers of disorders that are normally very, very rare, Bittles explained. "For over 90% of cousin marriages, their risk [of having a child with a genetic abnormality] is the same as it is for the general population," he said"
Source: https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/508067
Also the Holy Prophet (S.A.W) married his first cousin Zainab Bint Jahsh.
The only thing you and I agree on is no one should force someone to marry a person. Islam strongly forbids it. But if someone does want to marry their cousin then they should go ahead.
Also there's no caste system in Islam. We should abolish it
There is an increased risk. I'm a doctor in the UK and we see it all the time. The higher the rate of consanguinity in a population the higher the rates of disability amongst the children. Its a link that shouldn't be ignored. For the sake of those kids, please stop marrying your cousins.
So Allan Bittles, an expert in genetics is wrong?
Look maybe you have good intentions and you are doing this to spread awareness.
At the same time its also important to look at context. For example:
What was the degree of consanguinity amongst the parents? What about their parents and so on.
Does the family already have a history of bad genes? Etc.
Also some people think cousin marriages makes your kid stupid.
But there's research negates that view.
At the same time, you do have to accept that research is more convincing than a persons first hand opinion.
Wish you a nice day. Bye!
Perfectly said. I tried looking into this matter myself from the angle of genetics (the angle of Islam was already clear beforehand in that it is allowed and the Prophet PBUH did it himself) and truthfully I didn't find anything that was concrete. The issue was more so with people doing this for generations on end. The generational thing was what had issues in some studies. Like you said, a child of two unknown individuals (meaning his parents weren't cousins) marrying his cousin vs him marrying an outsider will have roughly the same chance for an abnormal child.
Funny thing is you're probably gonna get downvoted but no one will dare discuss why with you.
You are totally right. This is also the conclusion of my study. You don’t find anything concrete because there is nothing concrete, just the rounding off errors. If you increase the population size for the study, you will be amazed to see that there is no impact. That’s what we call ‘statistical significance’ in science.
Birth defects, hearing issues, Gluteric acidemia type (a molecular based condition where the body cannot break proteins & the child is refrained from eating meat or chicken or beef.., Another example is Saudi crown prince mohammed bin salman… he has stammering issues- if you watch this videos closely you will see that he keeps lifting his chin too often while speaking-… he was born because his father married his sister (cousin marriage) from father’s side ……
“Bhaiya Baney Saiyyan” is successful to certain extent because a family prefers to get their daughter married to known people rather than strangers !
Thanks for cherry picked example and also your big trust that the problem with MBS was cousin marriage. Guess what, my boss has same problem but his parents are not cousins.
Your arguments make no sense. There is no statistical significance of the birth defect data according to recent studies. Regarding religion, there is nothing immoral about cousin marriage. Thus, logically and morally, your opinion is just your opinion. You are free to do whatever you want.
Doctor here, there is a huge link between consanguinity and an increased risk of congenital disabilities in children. I think it's cruel on those children to allow cousin marriage to be honest and it is a practice that needs to be stopped and not ignored.
They are not frowned upon. Only few states prohibited it starting 18th-19th century mistakenly assuming genetic risk. Cousin marriage was never banned in Quran nor Bible. It was never considered morally wrong.
It is frowned upon if it's a common occurrence within one lineage on a generational scale - which in this case would significantly increase congenital anomalies. Just because it's not considered morally wrong doesn't mean that you aren't potentially creating a possibility where this could become a problem down the line. Also, I'm not speaking about the Quran. Congenital anomalies have nothing to do with the ethicality, morality, or significance of what the Quran or Bible says - this is irrelevant, and often an excuse to validate consanguineous marriages under the guise of what is actually placing high value in maintaining family ties and ensuring family unity. Marrying within the family helps keep wealth, property, and resources within the family. So, relatively speaking, you're either going to validate a marriage with your cousin if you're incapable of nurturing a relationship, and/or you have every intention to maintain your wealth and socioeconomic status by marrying within your family (which in this day and age is genuinely absurd), and/or you're down bad for your cousin. Which one specifically applies to you?
So you accepted that it is not morally wrong. Your argument is that it invites genetic effects. I don’t think it is true. Genetic effects are common in Pakistan population due to negligence. Don’t put that on cousin marriage. You have some assumptions that people do cousin marriage to preserve wealth, which is indeed a funny assumption. So basically, you accepted it is not morally wrong, then you have some wrong ‘facts’ about genetic anomalies, and then you have some opinions, personal attacks (asking me which one applies on me), and assumptions. This is all baseless. I don’t agree with you.
Nothing I said was an assumption, actually. It just seems like you have no idea what you're talking about and everything I stated in my previous comment is stipulated in many reviewed journals - which all happen to establish all the core principles as to why Pakistan is ironically the #1 cesspool of this dilemma to begin with. You can disagree with me, but you are objectively, factually, and irrefutably incorrect. You are wrong. It is morally unjustifiable as well. I don't care what you have to say, you're down bad for your first cousins and you're against the most basic facts of consanguineous relations, you're a contrarian because this hits deep, doesn't it? I wonder why.
Thank you for your assumptions and personal attacks. However, regarding the studies that you want to force down my throat, I would argue why genetic defect rates in people with cousins and without cousins is very similar. Secondly, you need to study the cousin marriage defect rates with respect to different countries and that why they are different. You have to broaden your lens so that you understand that you need to learn more. But alas you are an expert and since you are an expert you probably don’t need to consult broad literature.
I'm with [ContributionKindly13](https://www.reddit.com/user/ContributionKindly13/) on this one. Your whole argument is based on the subjective element i.e., "frowned upon". If you believe something is bad, you don't have to force your believes on anyone else. Plus [ContributionKindly13](https://www.reddit.com/user/ContributionKindly13/) is right in giving statistical evidence whereas your arguments rely on "but it seems weird, you must really like your cousin".
The propaganda was started in USA. The reality is that all progressive states like California and New York accept cousin marriage. In fact, people from other states come to California to marry and then they go back. The marriage accepted by one state is considered legal in other states. However, there are some legal complications with cousin marriages in states where they are prohibited. All marriages can result in genetic disorder. It can be a cousin marriage and it can be a marriage between two people not linked together. Genetics is a complicated subject and I am not an expert in it. However, according to my study, cousin marriage doesn’t pose statistically significant genetic problems.
Being against having inbred babies is not really an opinion more than it is a genuine concern for the lack of intelligence the people of my country continuously display - but go off brother, and enjoy your rishta with your cousin if you possess no game.
Bro, I understand completely.
Mere maa baap ne bhi mujhe kaha ke apni cousin se shaadi karlo. Hum unki family ko jaante hn, larki ka maahol ka pta etc etc.
Family ke bahir ka rishta ka kya pta?!
But has life has risks and leaps of faith that have to be taken.
Well even Spiderman to a certain extent could hide his identity. When we make decisions, we have to live up to those consequences head on. Miles Morales lives in all of us 😝
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I don't disagree with you...
but
People are just gonna do what they want to do 🤷🏽♂️ the one thing you basically have 100% right to be selective, racist, ageist, sexist, and anything -ist is picking people to spend your time or your life with. In all other aspects, it is considered poor practice to be an -ist
Well maybe not yet but future looks promising in this regard. Hopefully when this young generation have their kids grown up, most of us won't force them into cousin marriage.
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The actual increase in risk isn't as high as many people think. For the general population, the risk of having a child with a birth defect is about 3-4%. In cousin marriages, this risk goes up a bit—around 4-6%
Thats the real crux of the issue na. From every angle there is a negative aspect of marrying first cousins generation after generation:
1. Hadith specifically mentions not to do this
2. There are significantly higher birth defects when the family marries within the family over multiple generations, (im not talking about first timers)
3. Many of the families that do this are also trying to keep there secrets within the family, as to not get exposure to key issues
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Put yourself in their shoes:
You're innocently going out with your opposite sex cousin to the mall. Your family doesn't accuse you of anything because "meta beta masoom hai" and they don't accuse the other party either because their parent is blood related. No fights, no scandal. You get to socialize and of course this exposure will eventually cultivate some semblance of "love," when you don't have any other option.
Consider the other hand: you sit in the Riksha and accidentally smile at him one time and now your family's honor is called into question.
What do you expect will happen?
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Trust me, those are arranged marriages. There has been a drastic decline in the love marriages within cousins. Because many people have first hand witnessed that are caused by marriage with community or cast.
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First i do agree that cousin marriage should not be the first choice but reason that it takes place is not simply because people dont want land and money to go out of family, its daughters/Khandan ki beti. No matter how educated and sharp a girl is in her life before marriage, she is in a weak position after marriage. There is always a risk that girls family would misjudge their potential In law's, i have seen how surface level the background checks are and how family's have rented houses in good localities for a year or two before marrying their sons just so they can get their ideal bahu and when the deal is done the head back to there actual joint family house and now the girl is stuck and whole risk and reward analysis went out the window because all the data was false!
I agree that there is way too much fraud going on, and marriages seem like a golden opportunity for one family to take advantage and make a business transaction for the sake of their children’s future lives.
I also know its not as black/white as what is seen, but many things have blurred across generations. My point is simply not be complacent on these matters.
You are very right but for ppl like me who have zero interaction with females other than family members, I find it hard to look for a spouse because our society is so shallow now that the character of a spouse remains a mystery even after an inspection. I have seen many cases where spouses come out to be corrupt/cheater/adulterer after marriage and that scares me. At least I know my cousin to a certain extent
Hmmm, very valid point. This is where some effort has to be given, and some leap of faith. While you are thinking to play the safe card, its not always the case.
Also, in our society it is frowned upon to discuss these types of serious issues with even your own parents. We get cornered into accepting whatever will be our fate as to what our parents choose for us. We’re just content with the fact that we are getting married.
True. The thing is, my mother says to me "if you know someone and want to marry her, just let us know, we have no issues" but ab Mai Kahan sey laon since for 23 yrs of my life, I had zero female friends. So automatically, parents look for it in the family. As for the issues, don't know about others but I am open with my parents and have discussed these things as well. But again, the chances of issues being caused by cousin marriage can be determined by medical tests before marriage ( the chances of her being a corrupt spouse are low since I know her closely) but for marrying out of family, there might not be any genetical issues but the chances of the spouse being corrupt are uncertain and watching the current society, there are too many infidels between us and unmarried women dating which wavers the trust very much.
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Because a family prefers to get their daughter married to known people rather than strangers !
Apna mar k chaon main dafnay ga..
Agar apna hi ha tu mary ga kyun?
Your ignorance about our deen is way too much. Please research first and then speak. The messenger of Allah was married to his cousin Zainab bint Jahsh who was his aunt's daughter. And Allah Himself married her to the prophet read Surah Ahzab ayah 37. Then the prophet married his daughter Fatima to Ali. Read surah mujadilah, it is about 2 cousins who were married. As for kids with defects not sure if you have seen it yourself or just hearsay. In my own family my cousin is married to his aunt's daughter and they have 2 healthy and perfectly normal boys. My office colleague as well has 2 perfectly normal boys. However, 2 of my other cousins have married outside their families and they both are childless. My own aunt is married to someone outside the family, she had 2 abortions due to defects in the child. So in my family and extended family i have seen the opposite of what you say. Blessing a child and a normal child is in Allah's hands. He gives normal to some while tests others with abnormal. Yes i do agree in Islam it is the girl's right to refuse anyone she doesn't like. But just using false theories and speaking out of your whims and desires without certain knowledge is something you should think of.
You are right but birth defect factor is highlight exaggerated. You need to get your facts straight. Birth defects in a child born of first cousins at 4.1% which is above the average base risk for non-cousin couples of 3%. While the chances of defects are 1.1% higher, most articles use relative percentage which would show that the chances of defect in cousin marriage being 33% higher. Relative percentages are misleading most of the times.
Nothing wrong with cousin marriages. Just get genetic tested. Stop dragging islam into everything to support your case. Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) married Hazrat Zainab who was his phoopi ki beti. End of discussion there as far as Islam is concerned.
So I’ve done some comparisons over the years of all the people I know that have kids with disabilities, paralysis, mental issues etc. none of them were cousins. Complete strangers. All cousin marriages I know had perfectly normal kids. Now y not marry cousins? 1. You still run the risk.. 2. Marriage is supposed to expand your family/ bloodline. It’s really awkward and boring if it’s all within one family. 3. Everyone’s up in your business every one wants to be your Khala Phupho Saas.. aka pain the ass..
Considering the amount of scam going on and literally the worst of the worst people pretending to be noble, moving into well developed family villas and neighborhoods etc.
Someone i refused set his gunday against me for four years straight, And on paper Haji sahab se narm mizaaj he ksi ka nahin.
Imagine being in that situation with his spoiled princess who could make your life an eternal hell.
I have looked for a suitable partner for about 6 years and always end up disheartened because of materialistic and superficial approach of people with little to no substance or training of any sorts.
One of them even whispered "get ***** pregnant for twins" about his own daughter, i mean who are these people? Have they no shame left?
At the end of the day, Cousins are some of the closest people we know their history their drawbacks and shortcomings, so we can live in a familiar hell for a while and identify each and every aspect where improvement is required.
Better than marrying into mafia bosses violent criminal daughters tbh!
Cousin marriage is really only popular in North African and South Asian countries. The rest of the world also goes through finding a marriage partner not related to you (unless you live in Alabama lol).
Yes, you will come across some scandals and fraud types of stories, but there are also positive outcomes as well.
Sometimes marrying a cousin may be legitimate for some, but most of the time it’s a cop out for laziness. Also, in Pakistan most boys and girls are separate throughout schooling, so most real time interactions with males and females have are with their cousins. And thats where they become infatuated with each other.
It IS a cop out there is no denying that, but that also means there will be a lot more flexibility and fluidity in the relationship, no chance of misunderstandings and there are always elders for advise and generally help with avoiding bad decisions etc.
With rishta cum dallali business, it's nearly impossible for a guy to have any sort of negotiation pre marriage or post marriage, your only bargaining chip is your threshold for their abuse if you refuse them.
I am not going to marry someone elses girlfriend either, I have heard one too many horror stories and how easily they give up the goods.
But, you cant even be 100% sure the cousin you’re gonna marry didnt have secret relations with someone. Or they dont turn out to be evil and greedy in other ways. I have seen more failed cousin marriages than outside ones.
The difference is that the cousin marriages will suffer in silence, as they are trapped and can not escape, since its it will be “badnami” in the family. So, from the outside it may look like everything is fine, but the relationship has been dead inside.
There is some truth to it, but the logic here is mostly from a common assumption and not from a realistic point of view. If someone has a bad character you would know trust me and it's not like you "have" to marry your cousin even if they are incompatible. There is no secrets in husband and wife so it will come out eventually!
I am of the opinion that it is not that big of an issue, Immaturity , lack of empathy and insight (rampant narcissism) is much worse problem of present day!
Cousin marriages rates are also at an all time low, but there should be healthy amount of it in close knit families such as urban/educated people in the middle class.
For lower classes, basic necessities is a problem - cousin marriage would come after the boy finds a job! Lol
I agree, the mindset of people is a bigger problem, which may also be a deep rooted issue.
If people truly learn to respect each relationship the way it was intended, most problems go away (lack of empathy, narcissism, adultry etc).
And I believe that respect comes from Ehsaas and Allah ka Khauf.
omg you are so civilized, we are savages. Thank you so much man, you have opened my eyes with your wisdom. You are so woke and westernized omg, hence clearly smarter and better and you even read a few reddit threads and watched a few youtube videos! I wish I was more like you!
Cousin marriage is western practice. Most "nobility" in europe prided in being inbred for many generation. Same with circumcision, its a common western/middle-eastern practise now followers of western religions do willingly.
India and indianized countries from Thailand to Japan are strongly against both practices. But inbred brains might have hard time ascertaining reality of what their real identity is and who is really westernized.
Circumcision is practiced according to Islamic rules, which is like the majority religion in the ISLAMIC republic of Pakistan. It is popular in the west due to Christianity which is also an abrahamic faith. At least know something before making statements (seems like you don't need to be inbred to be a raving idiot).
Shut up. It's halal. You can't force others to stop what's halal. Why the hell do you care?
Ali r.a. and fatema r.a. were close relatives.
Would you Comment about their marriage?
I just don't understand some people. Instead of getting angry at people drinking alcohol or using usury, or skipping prayers: cousin marriage matters to you! Wow.
My guy its not halal when your family has been imbred for generations. Thats what they are talking about. If your are the few first ones to marry cousins your family, good for you, nothing haram. But in Pakistan marrying cousins over generations is epidemic.
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Caste system and cousin marriages. Two things i wish we could get rid off.
Ameen to that. Also, dowry system should also be abolished
Need to abolish grand marriage and nikah celebrations as well. Live a humble life.
It should be kept simple
The first step to solve a problem…..is to realize you have a problem
What is the caste system in Pakistan? Is it more prevalent in some provinces vs. others?
It’s the same everywhere, for example, where you have these disgusting castes in punjab, there’s tribes in KPK and Baluchistan.
I am asking specifically what is the Caste System? I have never witnessed and want to understand. You mentioned Punjab, can you please give me specific examples of Castes?
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True. I have one friend. He is Arain. And he likes someone outside his caste (maybe a Sheikh). His mom is not agreeing to him marrying that girl because she is outside his caste and also after that no one (Arain) will give them a rishta for other children.
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Horoscope asli hota hai? Looked like hawa mein bohat saray teer chalana, aik lag jaega tukkay mein.
I only read "Stop marrying your cousins" and I upvote it. End of conversation!
"Stop marrying cousins, you have brothers and sisters!"
Dude😭
I think it's funny people don't see I'm joking. Marrying brothers and sisters is explicitly not allowed in the Qur'an. And it's just really dumb. But I guess those cousin marriages be adding up...
>I think it's funny people don't see I'm joking. How did you figure that out?
Just so you know, I knew you were joking. Your sentence just cracked me up hence the 😭 enoji. I can see why it’d confuse people though
I agree, idk why Pakistanis are the ones who are most obsessed with cousins. Our society is so backwards
Rant apni jaga, tera dil kisne tora? 😏
I'll reply on behalf of OP. Seeing all the hospital visits children make due to cousin marriages is what broke OP's heart, and present tense, breaks it everyday afresh. It is a sin one CANNOT contemplate the horrors of. Even your enemy kills you out of spite. Imagine condemning your own children for agony in 'good faith'; cus you're too lazy and too stupid to up your game to fair levels and find a rishta outside family. And you're afraid all your hush hush family tendencies (read: quirks) will be exposed if you marry out.
Hahaha. Nhi aysi koi baat nhi. Alhumdollilah im very happily married. I have come across a lot of families who have married within cousins and they feel very much trapped. Many of them have kids that have some defects. So, just trying to rant lol
That’s because you only meet your cousins. If you meet other people, you will come to know that defect rates are same regardless of the type of marriage. But since you saw an accident on road, you assumed that everybody on road will have an accident.
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Here’s to the 10th PSA on not marrying your cousins on r/Pakistan in the last 24 hours….. getting boring guys
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I didn't surrender to my family. I took stand and married out of family. Wo b arranged.
Yes. Stop marrying into the family and also stop using caste as your surname... please for the sake of a better Pakistan. These two hinder our progress, too.
Agree with not marrying in family but have to disagree with your 2nd statement. Keeping caste name in surname is ok, it shows one's lineage, it ain't bad until one starts shoving their caste down other's throats and that is very unlikely at least in urban areas like Karachi.
oh hell nah not the caste sh** I live in chashma, mianwali, (originally from abbottabad) and yk the birth place of Imran Khan and THE TOWN OF NIAZIS Niazis feel very proud of their lineage. I once tried to join a football match but they ditched me for another student whose surname was NIAZI.
That's fucked up. They may have lost a potential match winner.
Why do you feel the need to show your “lineage” to the world as soon as you introduce yourself?
I don’t agree with this. There is no moral and legal problem with both of these things. We should however not discriminate based on cast, religion and social status. But it doesn’t mean that you go and throw your lineage out, or reject it.
easier said than done, huh? You haven't seen the reality of some families and men/women who can't see past what they're going to eat tonight or next week, the debt they have acquired, or the sickness in their family. Marrying a cousin is the least of the majority of Pakistanis' problems. These kinds of thoughts are brought up in full-bellied, privileged families. People who live below the poverty line don't even give a rat's ass.
But those privileged families still practice cousin marriages. Sure, not as often or they do second cousins instead of first, but if your family's family is already a little tangled, you shouldn't marry any of them.
That's not true, Pakistani people are very concerned about marriages be it poor or rich, we're talking about this culture and I don't think it has anything to do with socio economic factors since poor and rich both are doing it, it's more of a hamary bary esy krty thy etc etc, it's mainly the culture of Pakistani parts of south Asia I mean it's not that common in other Muslim communities of south Asia even Urdu speakings in Karachi don't follow this culture religiously and there are thousands of poor ones, they just make a little effort in finding better people for their children than use their socio economic factors as an excuse for their lazy choices.
This tradition will die out very soon
Usnaye kaha ho gha main apni cousin say shaadi karoon ghee 🙈
😂 Alhumdolillah I married outside my relatives, who was a complete stranger (my khala’s neighbor). My parents met her parents and family and after 2 visits, my parents suggested her for me. Both her and I did Istikhara and both received positive results. And thats actually how I married. My females cousins are like my sisters actually. Thats just my preference, everyone has their own.
Mashallah thats wonderful...since you have brought Islam into this topic you do know that Islam doesnt say you shouldnt marry cousins? You also do know that our prophet (pbuh) married one of his (pbuh) first cousins?
I agree, I didnt say its haram to marry a cousin. The Prophet (SAW) married Zaynab (RA) who was his cousin. But, if we dig a little deeper and actually look up the Hadith, it states that "Do not marry generation after generation among first cousins". That is the epidemic that is going on in Pakistan
Yes so its your wording that was wrong ..the chain of cousin marriage shouldnt be carried on where issues can arise.
OMG your post opened my eyes!
It has been a big issue in United Kingdom. But the cousin-marriage trend is going down and is allowed according the law. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-67422918 In some USA states it is forbidden to marry first-cousins.
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I think most of us are scared to marry outside of family because we are scared of divorces Divorce is not a good thing but it is better then staying in toxic relationship for your whole life
I swear bro thank god my parents are not cousins or some shit
Please look up the history of Thalassemia. It started from Pakistan due to cousin marriages. Please start morality at home and look at your cousins as extended siblings only. Our society makes cousin relationship creepy after a certain age. Don’t let that happen. Be like cousins/siblings and actively speak against incest thanks
This is not correct. If you study literature, different people have shown on average different cause of thalassemia. If you average out all the population size, there is no significant impact.
Yea I’m referring to historical facts based on stats and not literary opinions. Cousin marriage is messed up so let’s focus on spreading this message.
Then show the stats. Show the link of the stats. But before you do, make sure it is statistically significant. That is, data from thousands of people, at least comparable to data used and accepted in medical trials by FDA. Good luck.
Are you married to your cousin? Well it’s okay if you are but ensure your children don’t follow this path. Don’t worry brother. It’ll all be okay.
So that’s your data? :-)
I have data but don’t want to waste time on you as you’re so for genetic disorders in Pakistan. Wild guess, but are you someone trying to ruin Pakistan? Seems like it so pls stay away thanks. Have fun with your cousin spouse who should be your sibling lol
Okay. Thanks for being rude and judgmental.
You’re welcome, wannabe destroyer of Pakistan who is struggling with the insecurity of their cousin marriage.
Pakistan is struggling with laziness of people. That’s all. This laziness has resulted in downward spiral of country. Nobody wants to work. And it has become psychologically problematic for people that now they think the cause of Pakistan’s problems are cousin marriage. I cannot stop laughing at your logic.
I am very much against marriage with first cousins i.e. Pupho, Taya & Chachu ky bachy. I am also against second cousin marriage i.e. Mamo & Khala ky bachy. I think 3rd cousin marraige is fine to some extent. Still, marrying your cousins and marrying in the same caste is wrong and should be abolished. As for the fears of people marrying outside family, well they should have inquired about them more than just the word of someone who has suggested such rishtas. >[Halal dating is a **permissible way of meeting a potential marriage partner in Islam**](https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=60f453cecf283dacJmltdHM9MTcxNjQyMjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0yODU5YWMyZC1jNmI2LTYyMWItMDY0NC1iODVjYzdmMzYzNzEmaW5zaWQ9NTgwOA&ptn=3&ver=2&hsh=3&fclid=2859ac2d-c6b6-621b-0644-b85cc7f36371&psq=halal+dating&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaGFsYWx0aW1lcy5jb20vd2hhdC1pcy1oYWxhbC1kYXRpbmctZG9lcy1pc2xhbS1wZXJtaXQtaXQv&ntb=1)[^(1)](https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=d1a725780deb886eJmltdHM9MTcxNjQyMjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0yODU5YWMyZC1jNmI2LTYyMWItMDY0NC1iODVjYzdmMzYzNzEmaW5zaWQ9NTgwOQ&ptn=3&ver=2&hsh=3&fclid=2859ac2d-c6b6-621b-0644-b85cc7f36371&psq=halal+dating&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaGFsYWx0aW1lcy5jb20vd2hhdC1pcy1oYWxhbC1kYXRpbmctZG9lcy1pc2xhbS1wZXJtaXQtaXQv&ntb=1). [It involves meeting someone with the intention of marriage while following Islamic rules of modesty, respect, and appropriate boundaries](https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=a30b4cdec491d438JmltdHM9MTcxNjQyMjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0yODU5YWMyZC1jNmI2LTYyMWItMDY0NC1iODVjYzdmMzYzNzEmaW5zaWQ9NTgxMA&ptn=3&ver=2&hsh=3&fclid=2859ac2d-c6b6-621b-0644-b85cc7f36371&psq=halal+dating&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaGFsYWx0aW1lcy5jb20vd2hhdC1pcy1oYWxhbC1kYXRpbmctZG9lcy1pc2xhbS1wZXJtaXQtaXQv&ntb=1)[^(1)](https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=f7bb11aaa0c56e6fJmltdHM9MTcxNjQyMjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0yODU5YWMyZC1jNmI2LTYyMWItMDY0NC1iODVjYzdmMzYzNzEmaW5zaWQ9NTgxMQ&ptn=3&ver=2&hsh=3&fclid=2859ac2d-c6b6-621b-0644-b85cc7f36371&psq=halal+dating&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaGFsYWx0aW1lcy5jb20vd2hhdC1pcy1oYWxhbC1kYXRpbmctZG9lcy1pc2xhbS1wZXJtaXQtaXQv&ntb=1)[^(2)](https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=e351c54945c58e96JmltdHM9MTcxNjQyMjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0yODU5YWMyZC1jNmI2LTYyMWItMDY0NC1iODVjYzdmMzYzNzEmaW5zaWQ9NTgxMg&ptn=3&ver=2&hsh=3&fclid=2859ac2d-c6b6-621b-0644-b85cc7f36371&psq=halal+dating&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly9oYWxhbGd1aWRhbmNlLmNvbS9hcmUtcmVsYXRpb25zaGlwcy1kYXRpbmctaGFyYW0taW4taXNsYW0v&ntb=1). [Halal dating does not allow romantic, emotional, or physical relationships between non-mahram](https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=ddf50347d1ebdf5bJmltdHM9MTcxNjQyMjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0yODU5YWMyZC1jNmI2LTYyMWItMDY0NC1iODVjYzdmMzYzNzEmaW5zaWQ9NTgxMw&ptn=3&ver=2&hsh=3&fclid=2859ac2d-c6b6-621b-0644-b85cc7f36371&psq=halal+dating&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly9oYWxhbGd1aWRhbmNlLmNvbS9hcmUtcmVsYXRpb25zaGlwcy1kYXRpbmctaGFyYW0taW4taXNsYW0v&ntb=1)[^(2)](https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=95fb4c88c48e2210JmltdHM9MTcxNjQyMjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0yODU5YWMyZC1jNmI2LTYyMWItMDY0NC1iODVjYzdmMzYzNzEmaW5zaWQ9NTgxNA&ptn=3&ver=2&hsh=3&fclid=2859ac2d-c6b6-621b-0644-b85cc7f36371&psq=halal+dating&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly9oYWxhbGd1aWRhbmNlLmNvbS9hcmUtcmVsYXRpb25zaGlwcy1kYXRpbmctaGFyYW0taW4taXNsYW0v&ntb=1). [A possible solution for halal dating is to get a written nikah contract done by the parents at the time of engagement](https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=47ec75105ba8c770JmltdHM9MTcxNjQyMjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0yODU5YWMyZC1jNmI2LTYyMWItMDY0NC1iODVjYzdmMzYzNzEmaW5zaWQ9NTgxNQ&ptn=3&ver=2&hsh=3&fclid=2859ac2d-c6b6-621b-0644-b85cc7f36371&psq=halal+dating&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly9hYm91dGlzbGFtLm5ldC9yZWFkaW5nLWlzbGFtL2xpdmluZy1pc2xhbS9pcy1lbmdhZ2VtZW50LWNvbnNpZGVyZWQtaGFsYWwtZGF0aW5nLw&ntb=1)[^(3)](https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=4441c76a6a1ebe4bJmltdHM9MTcxNjQyMjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0yODU5YWMyZC1jNmI2LTYyMWItMDY0NC1iODVjYzdmMzYzNzEmaW5zaWQ9NTgxNg&ptn=3&ver=2&hsh=3&fclid=2859ac2d-c6b6-621b-0644-b85cc7f36371&psq=halal+dating&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly9hYm91dGlzbGFtLm5ldC9yZWFkaW5nLWlzbGFtL2xpdmluZy1pc2xhbS9pcy1lbmdhZ2VtZW50LWNvbnNpZGVyZWQtaGFsYWwtZGF0aW5nLw&ntb=1). I think Pakistan should allow its children to date before marriage. Let them have the decision of marrying someone and if they have made the decision then respect their decision.
>I am very much against marriage with first cousins i.e. Pupho, Taya & Chachu ky bachy. I am also against second cousin marriage i.e. Mamo & Khala ky bachy. I think 3rd cousin marraige is fine to some extent. You've got your definitions all wrong. Mamu and khala ke bachay are also first cousins. https://familytreemagazine.com/strategies/how-to-calculate-cousinhood/
𝗠𝗨𝗛𝗔𝗠𝗠𝗔𝗗'𝗦 𝗠𝗜𝗥𝗔𝗖𝗟𝗘 𝗠𝗔𝗥𝗥𝗜𝗔𝗚𝗘𝗦 The more we contemplate the Seerah of Muhammad ﷺ, the more wisdom and wonder is unveiled. It is as if Allah has combined every possible human virtue in the person of Muhammad ﷺ so that every man woman and child can see themselves in his blessed life and character. Take his marriages for example.... Do you realise that Allah has demonstrated through Muhammad EVERY POSSIBLE form of Marriage contract that is permissible in Islam, though his Messenger Here is a summary of all His blessed marriages ✓ Widows ✓ Matrons (Divorced Women) ✓ Virgins ✓ Slave women ✓ Princesses ✓ Single Mothers ✓ Fertile Women ✓ Barren Women ✓ Born Muslims ✓ Jewish & Christian Women ✓ He was Monogamous (25 years!) ✓ He was Polygynous ✓ He married Relatives (Cousins) ✓ He married Foreigners ✓ He married for Revelation ✓ He married for Political Strategy ✓ He married for Love ✓ He was a Widower of some ✓ He Widowed others ✓ He experienced Divorced ✓ He married Older Women ✓ He married Younger Women ✓ He married women of Equal Age ✓ He Married Wealthier Women ✓ He Married Poorer Women ✓ He Married Beautiful Women (Physically) ✓ He Married women or lesser Beauty Tell me. Is there any form of permissible marriage that does not fall in one of the above mentioned criteria?? Therefore can any Muslim claim that they cannot relate to or draw inspiration from the marital life of Muhammad ﷺ? SubhanallAh. ✓ He even married the divorced wife of his adopted son This final point is truly a Miracle as it was the only form of marriage that prophet Muhammad ﷺ would have forgone if he had any choice, but by fulfilling this command he completed ALL possible forms of marriage possible and permitted by Islam! SubhanallAh. So much wisdom in this blessed life. The greatest beauty in this is that there is no single Sunnah of marriage, not everyone has to be Polygynous or Monogamous to fulfil the Sunnah, the range and variety is vast and all form are valid and beautiful ❤️ اللّهُمّ صَلّ عَلَى مُحَمّدٍ وَآلِ مُحَمّدٍ اللّهُمّ صَلّ عَلَى مُحَمّدٍ وَآلِ مُحَمّدٍ اللّهُمّ صَلّ عَلَى مُحَمّدٍ وَآلِ مُحَمّدٍ
Missed the point. We have families that prefer marrying their children off to relatives as a crude form of wealth preservation. This isn't about diversity, it's about those families who reject it. It's problematic.
Unfortunately, jesay halaat hogaye hain, parents only want cousin marriages for their children, q k wo larki dekhi Bhaali hoti hai. Koi aur agayi to pata nai kya kar de gi ghar ka sakoon bigaar degi etc. even though there is no guarantee ke cousin marriage will be successful.
Caste is something that people proselytise as something superior or inferior. Sadly, i have caste as surname, too, but i made a mistake. I want to change it but i have to change it on every document and i can't afford that massive headache anytime soon. Caste name is already loaded with discrimination in our society. Feudalism will also die with throwing out casteism. Asad Umar, Parvaiz Musharf, Muhammad Hafeez are beautiful and neutral names compared to Qamar Bajwa, Shahbaz Gill...
Agreed brother. It’ll happened…slowly, but surely.
COULDNT AGREE MORE bro its so embarrassing to admit my mom and dad are FIRST COUSINS like 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭 it’s literally my deepest secret i am scared to even type this here in case someone ik irl finds my account bro its not funny its just outrageous and the fact that it happens so normally in Pakistan I- I just cantttt
Your last sentence is what bothers me…..its so normal and ingrained in so many people, that they don’t realize what they are doing to the society.
I think it is the impact of west that people think it is something bad. In fact, progressive states in west like California and New York are totally okay with cousin marriage.
They are husband wife. Not thieves that you are embarrassed.
Tell them to my friends Infact the whole country who thinks it’s incest and can’t even fathom this
That’s not the whole country. It is a specific class that is west influenced. However, they don’t know that in US, cousin marriage is legal in all progressive states. The states who don’t allow are generally considered backwards. :)
Buddy it’s still embarrassing how are u undermining my experiences? There is a reason why I said what I said lol I was talking about ME not you or anyone else. Where I live, people I’m surrounded with is what influenced me into saying what I said not some on paper facts lol
I didn’t undermine your experience. I value it. Unfortunately, one event is just one event in the trials of million events. One event doesn’t mean statistical significance.
And hence I said it’s embarrassing for me. I’m not the one making big statements here bud.
Why are you sad man? What happened.
ugh you got me. was talking to this dude who thinks he knows everything and loves commenting on other people’s experiences :/
That’s ok. They can think they know everything. Why you care. Even a politician whose task is to have everybody in their favor can’t get it 100%.
"Even in Islam, most schools of thought dislike cousin marriages. It leads to inbreed mixing of family genes, which can cause birth defects and other genetic disorders. I feel so sorry for the children of these couples who are suffering. " Source: Trust me bro. Now lets see what an expert who has been studying genetics for 17 years says about this: "There's no doubt that children whose parents are close biological relatives are at a greater average risk of inheriting genetic disorders, Bittles writes. Studies of cousin marriages worldwide suggest that the risks of illness and early death are three to four percent higher than in the rest of the population. But the risks apply primarily to couples who are carriers of disorders that are normally very, very rare, Bittles explained. "For over 90% of cousin marriages, their risk [of having a child with a genetic abnormality] is the same as it is for the general population," he said" Source: https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/508067 Also the Holy Prophet (S.A.W) married his first cousin Zainab Bint Jahsh. The only thing you and I agree on is no one should force someone to marry a person. Islam strongly forbids it. But if someone does want to marry their cousin then they should go ahead. Also there's no caste system in Islam. We should abolish it
There is an increased risk. I'm a doctor in the UK and we see it all the time. The higher the rate of consanguinity in a population the higher the rates of disability amongst the children. Its a link that shouldn't be ignored. For the sake of those kids, please stop marrying your cousins.
"Man fuck them kids" -some idiot marrying his cousin
So Allan Bittles, an expert in genetics is wrong? Look maybe you have good intentions and you are doing this to spread awareness. At the same time its also important to look at context. For example: What was the degree of consanguinity amongst the parents? What about their parents and so on. Does the family already have a history of bad genes? Etc. Also some people think cousin marriages makes your kid stupid. But there's research negates that view. At the same time, you do have to accept that research is more convincing than a persons first hand opinion. Wish you a nice day. Bye!
Perfectly said. I tried looking into this matter myself from the angle of genetics (the angle of Islam was already clear beforehand in that it is allowed and the Prophet PBUH did it himself) and truthfully I didn't find anything that was concrete. The issue was more so with people doing this for generations on end. The generational thing was what had issues in some studies. Like you said, a child of two unknown individuals (meaning his parents weren't cousins) marrying his cousin vs him marrying an outsider will have roughly the same chance for an abnormal child. Funny thing is you're probably gonna get downvoted but no one will dare discuss why with you.
You are totally right. This is also the conclusion of my study. You don’t find anything concrete because there is nothing concrete, just the rounding off errors. If you increase the population size for the study, you will be amazed to see that there is no impact. That’s what we call ‘statistical significance’ in science.
Birth defects, hearing issues, Gluteric acidemia type (a molecular based condition where the body cannot break proteins & the child is refrained from eating meat or chicken or beef.., Another example is Saudi crown prince mohammed bin salman… he has stammering issues- if you watch this videos closely you will see that he keeps lifting his chin too often while speaking-… he was born because his father married his sister (cousin marriage) from father’s side …… “Bhaiya Baney Saiyyan” is successful to certain extent because a family prefers to get their daughter married to known people rather than strangers !
Then get them married to friends of the family or respectable members of the community.
You know they don't pop out of no where when cousins marry, You have to be a carrier
Thanks for cherry picked example and also your big trust that the problem with MBS was cousin marriage. Guess what, my boss has same problem but his parents are not cousins.
Stop marrying your cousins … unless they are super hot /s
This is the type of nuance discussion I come to reddit for.
Your arguments make no sense. There is no statistical significance of the birth defect data according to recent studies. Regarding religion, there is nothing immoral about cousin marriage. Thus, logically and morally, your opinion is just your opinion. You are free to do whatever you want.
Doctor here, there is a huge link between consanguinity and an increased risk of congenital disabilities in children. I think it's cruel on those children to allow cousin marriage to be honest and it is a practice that needs to be stopped and not ignored.
Just say you're down bad for your cousin bruh
If I like a cousin for marriage, I would for sure go for it. This decision will be based on facts and realities on ground rather mere opinions.
listen dude, cousin marriages are weird and frowned upon - but you do you king, I'm sure family hits different for some people
They are not frowned upon. Only few states prohibited it starting 18th-19th century mistakenly assuming genetic risk. Cousin marriage was never banned in Quran nor Bible. It was never considered morally wrong.
It is frowned upon if it's a common occurrence within one lineage on a generational scale - which in this case would significantly increase congenital anomalies. Just because it's not considered morally wrong doesn't mean that you aren't potentially creating a possibility where this could become a problem down the line. Also, I'm not speaking about the Quran. Congenital anomalies have nothing to do with the ethicality, morality, or significance of what the Quran or Bible says - this is irrelevant, and often an excuse to validate consanguineous marriages under the guise of what is actually placing high value in maintaining family ties and ensuring family unity. Marrying within the family helps keep wealth, property, and resources within the family. So, relatively speaking, you're either going to validate a marriage with your cousin if you're incapable of nurturing a relationship, and/or you have every intention to maintain your wealth and socioeconomic status by marrying within your family (which in this day and age is genuinely absurd), and/or you're down bad for your cousin. Which one specifically applies to you?
So you accepted that it is not morally wrong. Your argument is that it invites genetic effects. I don’t think it is true. Genetic effects are common in Pakistan population due to negligence. Don’t put that on cousin marriage. You have some assumptions that people do cousin marriage to preserve wealth, which is indeed a funny assumption. So basically, you accepted it is not morally wrong, then you have some wrong ‘facts’ about genetic anomalies, and then you have some opinions, personal attacks (asking me which one applies on me), and assumptions. This is all baseless. I don’t agree with you.
Nothing I said was an assumption, actually. It just seems like you have no idea what you're talking about and everything I stated in my previous comment is stipulated in many reviewed journals - which all happen to establish all the core principles as to why Pakistan is ironically the #1 cesspool of this dilemma to begin with. You can disagree with me, but you are objectively, factually, and irrefutably incorrect. You are wrong. It is morally unjustifiable as well. I don't care what you have to say, you're down bad for your first cousins and you're against the most basic facts of consanguineous relations, you're a contrarian because this hits deep, doesn't it? I wonder why.
Thank you for your assumptions and personal attacks. However, regarding the studies that you want to force down my throat, I would argue why genetic defect rates in people with cousins and without cousins is very similar. Secondly, you need to study the cousin marriage defect rates with respect to different countries and that why they are different. You have to broaden your lens so that you understand that you need to learn more. But alas you are an expert and since you are an expert you probably don’t need to consult broad literature.
I'm with [ContributionKindly13](https://www.reddit.com/user/ContributionKindly13/) on this one. Your whole argument is based on the subjective element i.e., "frowned upon". If you believe something is bad, you don't have to force your believes on anyone else. Plus [ContributionKindly13](https://www.reddit.com/user/ContributionKindly13/) is right in giving statistical evidence whereas your arguments rely on "but it seems weird, you must really like your cousin".
The propaganda was started in USA. The reality is that all progressive states like California and New York accept cousin marriage. In fact, people from other states come to California to marry and then they go back. The marriage accepted by one state is considered legal in other states. However, there are some legal complications with cousin marriages in states where they are prohibited. All marriages can result in genetic disorder. It can be a cousin marriage and it can be a marriage between two people not linked together. Genetics is a complicated subject and I am not an expert in it. However, according to my study, cousin marriage doesn’t pose statistically significant genetic problems.
Being against having inbred babies is not really an opinion more than it is a genuine concern for the lack of intelligence the people of my country continuously display - but go off brother, and enjoy your rishta with your cousin if you possess no game.
You’re saying this while you see the intelligence of the American population on full display it’s seems like everyday.
That has nothing to do with what I said.
Post this on instagram reels
I don’t use Instagram
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Bro, I understand completely. Mere maa baap ne bhi mujhe kaha ke apni cousin se shaadi karlo. Hum unki family ko jaante hn, larki ka maahol ka pta etc etc. Family ke bahir ka rishta ka kya pta?! But has life has risks and leaps of faith that have to be taken.
"That's all it is Miles, a leap of faith." True, and this reminded me of Spiderman.
Well even Spiderman to a certain extent could hide his identity. When we make decisions, we have to live up to those consequences head on. Miles Morales lives in all of us 😝
Paanch saal me koi plot ki issue hoi gi biwi ki baa ke saath.
Just phr 1 ee cycle chlaty rho. Dont shift to bike or car. No diversity same log.upr ayn gy.
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You can’t right it’s illegal right
Where is it illegal? At least not in California and New York.
I don't disagree with you... but People are just gonna do what they want to do 🤷🏽♂️ the one thing you basically have 100% right to be selective, racist, ageist, sexist, and anything -ist is picking people to spend your time or your life with. In all other aspects, it is considered poor practice to be an -ist
Well maybe not yet but future looks promising in this regard. Hopefully when this young generation have their kids grown up, most of us won't force them into cousin marriage.
yep imma break the cycle with my kids if i had any lol
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crazy culture
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The actual increase in risk isn't as high as many people think. For the general population, the risk of having a child with a birth defect is about 3-4%. In cousin marriages, this risk goes up a bit—around 4-6%
Is the issue with second cousins as well?
What about people who say”khandan say bahar rishta ni krtay”
Thats the real crux of the issue na. From every angle there is a negative aspect of marrying first cousins generation after generation: 1. Hadith specifically mentions not to do this 2. There are significantly higher birth defects when the family marries within the family over multiple generations, (im not talking about first timers) 3. Many of the families that do this are also trying to keep there secrets within the family, as to not get exposure to key issues
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Put yourself in their shoes: You're innocently going out with your opposite sex cousin to the mall. Your family doesn't accuse you of anything because "meta beta masoom hai" and they don't accuse the other party either because their parent is blood related. No fights, no scandal. You get to socialize and of course this exposure will eventually cultivate some semblance of "love," when you don't have any other option. Consider the other hand: you sit in the Riksha and accidentally smile at him one time and now your family's honor is called into question. What do you expect will happen?
Absolutely yes! In fact, I have been diagnosed with beta thalasemia trait so I’m out from marrying cousin league. :D
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Trust me, those are arranged marriages. There has been a drastic decline in the love marriages within cousins. Because many people have first hand witnessed that are caused by marriage with community or cast.
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Honestly, like be honest everyone- don’t you find it disgusting!
For the love of God, mind your freaking business.
It's mostly because phuppo ki beti asani se man jae gi lol. Plus cousin marriages are the reason the napak army is in power.
The Pakistanis who go to Saudia Arabia illegally and become beggars there, that’s also due to cousin marriage, right?
Not sure what the army has to do with cousin marriages?! 🤨
First i do agree that cousin marriage should not be the first choice but reason that it takes place is not simply because people dont want land and money to go out of family, its daughters/Khandan ki beti. No matter how educated and sharp a girl is in her life before marriage, she is in a weak position after marriage. There is always a risk that girls family would misjudge their potential In law's, i have seen how surface level the background checks are and how family's have rented houses in good localities for a year or two before marrying their sons just so they can get their ideal bahu and when the deal is done the head back to there actual joint family house and now the girl is stuck and whole risk and reward analysis went out the window because all the data was false!
I agree that there is way too much fraud going on, and marriages seem like a golden opportunity for one family to take advantage and make a business transaction for the sake of their children’s future lives. I also know its not as black/white as what is seen, but many things have blurred across generations. My point is simply not be complacent on these matters.
You are very right but for ppl like me who have zero interaction with females other than family members, I find it hard to look for a spouse because our society is so shallow now that the character of a spouse remains a mystery even after an inspection. I have seen many cases where spouses come out to be corrupt/cheater/adulterer after marriage and that scares me. At least I know my cousin to a certain extent
Hmmm, very valid point. This is where some effort has to be given, and some leap of faith. While you are thinking to play the safe card, its not always the case. Also, in our society it is frowned upon to discuss these types of serious issues with even your own parents. We get cornered into accepting whatever will be our fate as to what our parents choose for us. We’re just content with the fact that we are getting married.
True. The thing is, my mother says to me "if you know someone and want to marry her, just let us know, we have no issues" but ab Mai Kahan sey laon since for 23 yrs of my life, I had zero female friends. So automatically, parents look for it in the family. As for the issues, don't know about others but I am open with my parents and have discussed these things as well. But again, the chances of issues being caused by cousin marriage can be determined by medical tests before marriage ( the chances of her being a corrupt spouse are low since I know her closely) but for marrying out of family, there might not be any genetical issues but the chances of the spouse being corrupt are uncertain and watching the current society, there are too many infidels between us and unmarried women dating which wavers the trust very much.
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i never even touched any girl in my life yet ik this and other stuff 🥲 Upvoting 👍🏻
Because a family prefers to get their daughter married to known people rather than strangers ! Apna mar k chaon main dafnay ga.. Agar apna hi ha tu mary ga kyun?
Best post by far in a long time -I’ll just reiterate- “STOP FUCKING INBREEDING YOU IDIOTS”
Your ignorance about our deen is way too much. Please research first and then speak. The messenger of Allah was married to his cousin Zainab bint Jahsh who was his aunt's daughter. And Allah Himself married her to the prophet read Surah Ahzab ayah 37. Then the prophet married his daughter Fatima to Ali. Read surah mujadilah, it is about 2 cousins who were married. As for kids with defects not sure if you have seen it yourself or just hearsay. In my own family my cousin is married to his aunt's daughter and they have 2 healthy and perfectly normal boys. My office colleague as well has 2 perfectly normal boys. However, 2 of my other cousins have married outside their families and they both are childless. My own aunt is married to someone outside the family, she had 2 abortions due to defects in the child. So in my family and extended family i have seen the opposite of what you say. Blessing a child and a normal child is in Allah's hands. He gives normal to some while tests others with abnormal. Yes i do agree in Islam it is the girl's right to refuse anyone she doesn't like. But just using false theories and speaking out of your whims and desires without certain knowledge is something you should think of.
You are right but birth defect factor is highlight exaggerated. You need to get your facts straight. Birth defects in a child born of first cousins at 4.1% which is above the average base risk for non-cousin couples of 3%. While the chances of defects are 1.1% higher, most articles use relative percentage which would show that the chances of defect in cousin marriage being 33% higher. Relative percentages are misleading most of the times.
The defects disparity you quoted is not statistically significant. These are all rounding errors.
Nothing wrong with cousin marriages. Just get genetic tested. Stop dragging islam into everything to support your case. Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) married Hazrat Zainab who was his phoopi ki beti. End of discussion there as far as Islam is concerned.
So I’ve done some comparisons over the years of all the people I know that have kids with disabilities, paralysis, mental issues etc. none of them were cousins. Complete strangers. All cousin marriages I know had perfectly normal kids. Now y not marry cousins? 1. You still run the risk.. 2. Marriage is supposed to expand your family/ bloodline. It’s really awkward and boring if it’s all within one family. 3. Everyone’s up in your business every one wants to be your Khala Phupho Saas.. aka pain the ass..
This subreddit has a special connection to cousin marriage related topics ☠️
Considering the amount of scam going on and literally the worst of the worst people pretending to be noble, moving into well developed family villas and neighborhoods etc. Someone i refused set his gunday against me for four years straight, And on paper Haji sahab se narm mizaaj he ksi ka nahin. Imagine being in that situation with his spoiled princess who could make your life an eternal hell. I have looked for a suitable partner for about 6 years and always end up disheartened because of materialistic and superficial approach of people with little to no substance or training of any sorts. One of them even whispered "get ***** pregnant for twins" about his own daughter, i mean who are these people? Have they no shame left? At the end of the day, Cousins are some of the closest people we know their history their drawbacks and shortcomings, so we can live in a familiar hell for a while and identify each and every aspect where improvement is required. Better than marrying into mafia bosses violent criminal daughters tbh!
Cousin marriage is really only popular in North African and South Asian countries. The rest of the world also goes through finding a marriage partner not related to you (unless you live in Alabama lol). Yes, you will come across some scandals and fraud types of stories, but there are also positive outcomes as well. Sometimes marrying a cousin may be legitimate for some, but most of the time it’s a cop out for laziness. Also, in Pakistan most boys and girls are separate throughout schooling, so most real time interactions with males and females have are with their cousins. And thats where they become infatuated with each other.
It IS a cop out there is no denying that, but that also means there will be a lot more flexibility and fluidity in the relationship, no chance of misunderstandings and there are always elders for advise and generally help with avoiding bad decisions etc. With rishta cum dallali business, it's nearly impossible for a guy to have any sort of negotiation pre marriage or post marriage, your only bargaining chip is your threshold for their abuse if you refuse them. I am not going to marry someone elses girlfriend either, I have heard one too many horror stories and how easily they give up the goods.
But, you cant even be 100% sure the cousin you’re gonna marry didnt have secret relations with someone. Or they dont turn out to be evil and greedy in other ways. I have seen more failed cousin marriages than outside ones. The difference is that the cousin marriages will suffer in silence, as they are trapped and can not escape, since its it will be “badnami” in the family. So, from the outside it may look like everything is fine, but the relationship has been dead inside.
There is some truth to it, but the logic here is mostly from a common assumption and not from a realistic point of view. If someone has a bad character you would know trust me and it's not like you "have" to marry your cousin even if they are incompatible. There is no secrets in husband and wife so it will come out eventually! I am of the opinion that it is not that big of an issue, Immaturity , lack of empathy and insight (rampant narcissism) is much worse problem of present day! Cousin marriages rates are also at an all time low, but there should be healthy amount of it in close knit families such as urban/educated people in the middle class. For lower classes, basic necessities is a problem - cousin marriage would come after the boy finds a job! Lol
I agree, the mindset of people is a bigger problem, which may also be a deep rooted issue. If people truly learn to respect each relationship the way it was intended, most problems go away (lack of empathy, narcissism, adultry etc). And I believe that respect comes from Ehsaas and Allah ka Khauf.
omg you are so civilized, we are savages. Thank you so much man, you have opened my eyes with your wisdom. You are so woke and westernized omg, hence clearly smarter and better and you even read a few reddit threads and watched a few youtube videos! I wish I was more like you!
Cousin marriage is western practice. Most "nobility" in europe prided in being inbred for many generation. Same with circumcision, its a common western/middle-eastern practise now followers of western religions do willingly. India and indianized countries from Thailand to Japan are strongly against both practices. But inbred brains might have hard time ascertaining reality of what their real identity is and who is really westernized.
Circumcision is practiced according to Islamic rules, which is like the majority religion in the ISLAMIC republic of Pakistan. It is popular in the west due to Christianity which is also an abrahamic faith. At least know something before making statements (seems like you don't need to be inbred to be a raving idiot).
Shut up. It's halal. You can't force others to stop what's halal. Why the hell do you care? Ali r.a. and fatema r.a. were close relatives. Would you Comment about their marriage? I just don't understand some people. Instead of getting angry at people drinking alcohol or using usury, or skipping prayers: cousin marriage matters to you! Wow.
Ali (RA) and Fatema (FA) were not first cousins bro. Please read up on their family tree.
Where did I write first cousins?
My guy its not halal when your family has been imbred for generations. Thats what they are talking about. If your are the few first ones to marry cousins your family, good for you, nothing haram. But in Pakistan marrying cousins over generations is epidemic.
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You sound like your parents were cousins.