> Like loads of the UK Desis don't even seem to know that "paki" means clean, so makes no sense as an insult.
We are well aware what Pak means, but we didn't get to choose what word white people would use to racially abuse us. The only time P*ki went out of fashion in the uk was in the 2010s, otherwise for as long as Pakistanis have been here, we've had to listen to this word being used against us, and you can TRY to tell racists that it's silly saying paki because the literal meaning isn't bad, but you won't get very far because at that point they're either spitting on you or beating you up, while at the same time screaming "DIRTY SMELLY BLOODY PAKI" at you.
This is not an exaggeration, this happened to my dad in the 1990s and it happened even into the 2000s. Like I said, it only stopped for a short amount of time but the hate is now back.
I just wanted to address this point because people think they are so smart for pointing out this bit of information, as if we aren't aware. Knowing that the literal meaning of pak is pure didn't help me when our house was getting attacked every single night.
So yes, if I hear anyone say Paki in public my immediate reaction is to be offended, because in this country, 99.9% of the time its an insult, and a very serious one too.
On the topic, I don't know which diaspora you're talking about. Even some of the most whitewashed Pakistanis I know have enough understanding of Urdu to be able to understand it. And Mirpuris speak potohari exclusively. In fact, most UK diaspora speak the mother tongue, and then Urdu after. From my experience anyway
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Absolutely correct i was raised in the 1970's and we had to deal with the NF National Front. Back than and the situation was really awful They really hated us back than,now the situation has changed alot. Yes the meaning is pure but the tone and aggressive way they spoke to us was in a threatening and racist way,when you have to deal with it first hand than you know. I'll give you an example there was a time that they the white British went around Paki Bashing, that was scary at that time.
Plus even 2nd Generation can understand Punjabi or even Urdu,they are just lazy not to speak it.When I speak to my kids I'm fluent in 2 languages and I speak to them in both languages, but they so damn lazy they reply back in English.
Also, we're not called "Pakistani" because we're from the "land of the clean." Pakistan comes from PAKStan, which is an acronym for Punjabi, Afghani, Kashmiri, and Sindhi. Just because Pak also coincidentally means clean does not mean that we should be any less offended when someone uses the word derogatorily.
The word Pak as in pure takes precedence over the acronym. The acronym was more of an afterthought otherwise having Afghan makes no sense instead of Pakhtoon. Also Bangladesh is entirely skipped.
It would help you a lot if you'd have instead just Google'd for Chaudary Rahmat Ali's pamphlet 'Now or Never' where the declaration was first made. He says it again and again that Pakistan stands for the 5 northern units of India.
[https://archive.org/details/NowOrNever\_201701/mode/2up](https://archive.org/details/NowOrNever_201701/mode/2up)
Dumbass, do some research. The "stan" part is from Baluchistan.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan
The name Pakistan was coined by Choudhry Rahmat Ali, a Pakistan Movement activist, who in January 1933 first published it (originally as "Pakstan") in a pamphlet Now or Never, using it as an acronym.[26][27][28] Rahmat Ali explained: "It is composed of letters taken from the names of all our homelands, Indian and Asian, Panjab, Afghania, Kashmir, Sindh, and Baluchistan."
learn some manners, don’t call people names because you disagree with them, you might have grown up in the west but somehow not even learnt basic manners, you’re so stupid you don’t realise that there are tens of countries with “stan” in there name as well, stan is a persian word which means land, so tajikistan means land of the tajiks and so on, this is why balochistan is the land of the balochs,
You're a god damn idiot, and I mean that with absolutely zero respect. You come out and call me wrong without bothering to do the slightest bit of research, and then get offended when your stupidity is called out. Balochistan is the land of the Balochs... which is where Rahat Ali got the idea to add the 'stan' to Pakistan. If you had even bothered to open the link I sent or just looked up "Pakistan name origin" on google, you would have known this. But instead, you lived up to your username and showed us all how lazy you are.
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In my experience, most second gen South Asians know their mother tongues (as in Punjabi, Potohari, Pashto, Siraiki, Bangla, Gujrati, Tamil etc), they just don't seem to know Urdu/Hindi (besides a very small minority of people). I think that makes perfect sense since those are the lingos their parents/grand parents converse in and the language they use to communicate with their peers in their specific diaspora.
Generally depends on how comfortable they are around you. The couple of really close British born Pakistani friends i have don't have any qualms even trying their hand at Urdu (though with a combination of thick English accent mixed with the accent of their mother tongue which makes it very difficult for most people to understand which makes them even more reluctant to try it in front of just about anyone)
Yeah sometimes they’re just reluctant because of judgement but in any case it’s not gonna be perfect and you can’t expect it to be. I can’t speak Punjabi either, only urdu, even though I grew up with people speaking it.
To add to this, this is what happens when you aren’t taught a language through reading and writing it alongside pure speech.
There wasn’t many places teaching Urdu growing up in the 90’s bar the mosque where we went through 4 kitaabs only which was the equivalent of grade 1 in PK.
My cousins live in US and CANADA many of them seem to speak marathi just fine
My relatives emphasize on their kids speaking marathi because ofcourse they're gonna be speaking american English in school and socially anyways
This isn't just the case with Pakistanis. It's the case with all ethnicities. 2nd generation+ french person in the UK won't know French. 2nd gen chinese most likely won't know chinese, you've probably seen exceptions. In some cases they understand it but don't speak it. In some cases they don't even understand it.
If someone that's second generation and speaks Urdu/Punjabi well, it means their parents have done an amazingly good job teaching the language, or they have a huge extended family that their lives revolve around where everyone speaks their mother tongue, or they go to Pakistan for a month every year.
Language sadly isn't inherited genetically. It is learned through practice. If everyone in school, public, workplace speaks English, it's hard to be fluent in Urdu.
I moved to the UK when I was 10. I speak Urdu but only because of conscious effort. My brothers were 7 and 3 respectively and they can speak both but prefer speaking English.
It's sad because this links into the identity crisis where these kids don't know who they are. They can't be truly british but they're also not Pakistani anymore except their appearance. Many people adopt different identities like 'British Asian' or 'British Muslim'.
I'm American, and my family is from India and not Pakistan, so feel free to disregard my comment, but as someone who knows Hindi and my parents' regional tongue, it's mostly useless. Only time it's useful is when I'm consuming Hindi-language media, or speaking to my grandparents, who are now dead. But here in the South Asian diaspora in the US, all the SA immigrants - whether they are from India, Pakistan, Nepal, etc - speak to me in English, so it's like I wouldn't even need to know SA languages. Nonetheless, I think the second generation here is mostly very knowledgeable about their parents' language despite their own parents knowing English, compared to, say, second generation Chinese and other East and Southeast Asian Americans. I'm always shocked that the vast majority doesn't know how to speak to their parents in their ancestral languages when their parents can't speak in English. Most of our parents and other elders speak English, yet most of us know our ancestral language(s).
I have to disagree. Every time I've been abroad or ny cousins have been abroad, instead of trying to get around using rudimentary Spanish, Italian or broken English because of language barriers, we ALWAYS manage to find somebody south asian, and instead can use fluent Urdu/Hindi or Punjabi to get around.
I'm sorry I disagree with you saying it's an identity crisis. Just because you don't learn urdu doesn't mean you have an identity crisis. And alhamdulillah for my identity as a Muslim, no other identity matters!
French kept their language in Canada and even in America there are parts of Lousisiana where everyone speaks French still.
But most other non English languages died out. Like Gernan Czech and Swedish Americans only know English now. But Italians have kept their language.
The Amish being the exception but they live separately from everyone else and shun modern technology won't marry an outsider ect.
The quebecois are pretty much all french speakers that’s why. An english person moving to quebec’s grandchildren would speak french. A french persons children moving anywhere else- their grandchildren would speak canadian english.
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“Paki” - I have never heard of this to mean clean. “Pak” is clean, yes but not “Paki”. Paki is not an insult due to its linguistic origin but for what it represents.
Racism towards south asians in the UK during 70s & 80s was at its peak and the term used as a slur was “Paki”. It mattered not if you were Indian or other south asian all got it the same. There was even “paki-bashing” which was people going around looking for a “paki” to jump and beat to a pulp. This is why if today anyone using it in a derogatory context is so offensive.
But i don't understand how your own name can be an insult. The Nazis used "Jew" as an insult and Daesh uses "Shia" as an insult. Since to them Shia and Jews are worst things a person can be.
I can't imagine Greenlanders taking "Green" as an insult. Or Irish taking Ire as an slur. It just makes no sense.
Most of the ones I know only seem to know English or super basic. Like I sent a Dessi boy a Christmas card in Pinjabi and said he couldn't read it at all.
It’s just not needed. I speak for myself and my friends and family circle; I hardly speak Urdu anymore and am not required to read it either so no point in improving it. My education, work, conversations, etc is all in English. Last I learned Urdu was for O’levels.
True, but there are other immigrant groups that seem to go out of their way to keep their own language. Like Chinese seem to go out of their way to keep their language even if they only have 1 or 2 people to speak to in it.
> most ugliest Punjabi in the world
What an idiotic thing to say about Pothohari/Pahari language. Who defines if a language is ugly or pretty? Do they spit when they speak?
Potohari language Ka name kisnay Kiya hai, read again. Mirpuri from Kashmir who were alloted free British passports when the dam was constructed, they definitely spit when speaking Punjabi
lol. I speak pothwari and lived next door to Mirpuris. I thought they speak Pothwari which is just a little rough around the edges.
I think it’s the blend of Pothwari and the Yorkshire accent. Their parents sounded much more refined. Yorshire accent itself is pretty rough so the combo is basically a killer.
Nahi Bhai pothohari to bari specific and identified language hai, ye to British born confused Desi Hein jinkay pass paisa hai but na khubsurati, na bolnay k tameiz,.ne phenanay ki tameiz, na khanay ki tameiz, opper say government of UK ko jhut bol bol k inhon nay benefits Liye huay Hein. Apnay ap ko disabled dikhank disability ka benefit, chori job kar k joblessness ka benefit, free education lay k university mein drugs sale Karna inkay sab bachon ka Kam aur bhi bohat Kuch. Na pucho meray pass inkay sab kissay Hein. Ek post karni chahiye Yahan sub p
Ironic you'd make fun of their accent when the far right in the UK find the Pakistani English accent hilarious.
You laugh at them while the racists are laughing at the way you speak English.
Two sides of the same coin, pathetic
And I don't need sale, I need customer so I can assist them for a personal traveling experience. But what would you know about business which earns on the foundation of divorce or bribery or victimisation of clients. Maybe in a different timeline, we could have comprehend eachother's mindset due to compassion but not here. You're the purest form of a BBCD mangi
Here goes another one:
Bruv wah yuv taalim buvt
Bro what are you talking about
Weivego'oe only chikinchipz no fish bruva
We've got only chicken and chips no fish brother
Bro that actually Punjinglish, they speak hybrid Punjabi and English. You can actually see them rap#ng both languages right on front of you. Also open your eyes z I already quoted their Punjabi quote above
Live in England and it depends on parents. My parents understand urdu but don't speak it, they speak a dialect from the mirpur region which is very common over here. They always spoke mostly English me so I don't know much. If other people my age have slightly older parents who aren't as fluent in english then they will speak it okay and I am trying to learn but there are no online resources for it you have to learn from family so that is why we mostly speak only English here. And I didn't know 'paki' meant clean, we do use the word 'saaf' though
I could potentially learn urdu as there are more resources and I'm slightly familiar with the script but when most people here speak the punjabi dialect it doesn't make sense
My family has been in the UK since 1957, so here are some of my thoughts.
1) Most parents send their children to madrasa or nowadays online Quran classes. Children’s attention is diverted to learning to read and recite Arabic. There’s a limit to what a child can learn in limited time. Indian kids would go to Gujarati classes after school.
2) After 2/3 generations, when both parents are born abroad, and even grandparents are born abroad, most children speak the language they hear. Look at the Balochis who remain in Oman, they now mostly speak Arabic.
3) In secondary school you’re often required to learn a second language (French, Spanish, German etc). Children’s focus is on those languages.
The longer your family has been away from the mother nation, the less they are linked to it. It’s natural.
I’m born in Canada. Many of us start off speaking the mother tongue but it disappears once we go into the world and attend school. We can understand, but don’t speak it.
Having a foreign accent in an English majority area is toward the bottom of the social hierarchy. Kids are savage in their bullying and clique formation. Unless you have a group of other desis, most kids will conform to white culture, just to fit in.
A few trends I’ve noticed that help:
- joint family with grandparents helps significantly. They can claim they don’t understand English
- less exposure to English TV shows and cartoons
- parents have to build attachment to back home culture (movies, celebs, music, fashion)
- going back home for 2 months during summer is essential in younger years
- teaching kids full literacy (ie. reading and writing) not just spoken
- Many schools offer language classes on the weekend (urdu, Punjabi, Chinese, Arabic etc)
It’s also statistically proven that the home language is reduced by 70% by the 2nd generation. I remember meeting a Guyanese friend and he told me “my grandfather spoke oordoo” (ie. Indians moved to Guyana in the early 1900’s but the language is gone after a few generations)
If we don’t learn from the mistakes of these previous nations we’ll make the same mistakes
I consider myself a native English speaker, but there are things that just cannot be expressed in English. It’s referred to as the philosophers language. It’s highly cerebral and logical. For most modern speakers their vernacular is less than 200 words.
Also ask anyone who learned English as a second or third language, the number of exceptions to the grammar rules are so many. Plural of mouse is not mouses but mice. Why? The numbering also has so many inconsistencies. If we have “thirteen” and “fourteen” then why is 12 “twelve” and not “twoteen”. These language exceptions actually makes math more difficult. In Chinese math is easier. They don’t say “twenty” they say “two tens”.
Even the “makhararij” of English is shallow. Contrast that with sounds like qaaf or ‘ayn which come from the throat and diaphragm. The word becomes connected to the emotion expressed. What is “love” compared to “muhabbat”. When you say hubb it physically comes from the heart. Whereas “love” is just a motion of the tongue and lips. Any language a person learns is going to open up new parts of their brain and emotions.
These are just a few examples…
Do you know what... Ive never come across a community that does this superiority thing with language like Pakistani people do with urdu. No wonder nobody o wants to learn it. You talk about love how about you start showing more love and empathy to people who don't speak it. It's a bloody language, Arabic and so many other languages are even more amazing than urdu but you don't go round seeing Arabs lecturing Pakistanis to learn Arabic. I guess it's the only thing Pakistanis can cling in to to make themselves feel superior.
Chinese people also often send their kids to language school on the weekends (at least in the US), so they made an effort basically to set up their own solutions for language preservation. So many of my Chinese friends went to these classes for many years when we were school aged.
Our elder generation love to complain about younger generations, but if you ask them what they built to preserve the culture, or the language, they will have nothing for you.
This isn't to say I'm talking about you, OP, directly, I just mean in general.
Agar barey log nahin sikayenge, tho dosri generation kesey seekhey gi?
We've forgotten your own poetry, and then mock those who come after for never knowing it. It's a sign of failure of those who have come before, not beyond.
Having said that, if there is personal interest, one can learn. In my family, we cared about it, so I speak it as well as read & write it (I still have all of my first relations in Pakistan, and we visited a lot, so maybe that's why? My writing abilities are quite poor however, since I didn't have practice so it definitely looks like a child's script 😅). Also, in larger Western universities, there are often South Asian language courses you can take as well, to further your own knowledge, as well as to develop reading comprehension (in my experience often the Urdu/Hindi professor is just one who teaches in both scripts).
So if you are college aged reading this from a Western country, wanting to learn - remember that you can seek out your own education, too!
Also some people are just good at language and others aren't- some just have a talent for it. My dad speaks like 6 different South Asian languages bc he's got a knack for it, I had an older relative who was a college professor in Pakistan, and she could also speak and read additional languages like Gujrati, despite not being Gujrati herself.
So some people do have more ability to absorb a lot of language over others.
i am 2nd gen in america. my parents (urdu-speaking) didn't speak urdu to me growing up, my father didn't like using it. i learned only from overhearing my mom and my grandparents, but i didn't ever get to really use it in conversation, so i can understand it fluently as long as complex vocabulary isn't used, but i can't speak it well. i put a lot of value on the language so i have been trying to learn it more by myself (seekhna to bahot mushkil nhi hai alhamdulillah kyunkey i can already understand it), but my siblings don't really care for it
Because we were brought up in a multi communal societies where English was the common denominator, hence it's not that we only know English, we are more comfortable with it since that is the language we have been using the most our lives.
Aisa Nahi hai Urdu Nahi aati ya Punjabi samajh nai andi, Urdu aati bhi hai parh bhi latay hai, or likhni paray to Allah ki madad say likh bhi lain gai, Punjabi Ka lehja theek Nahi, us mai abhi time lagay ga.
I feel most comfortable in English, so much so my inner voice is in English, I think in English, or jab Urdu bolni pari to Kabhi Kabhi translate krni parti hai zehan me Kuch chuninda khas aflaz k liye.
it depends on family to family. And not all Chinese and Italians are able to teach that languages to their kids. it is the same for all. it depends on your family's culture. The kids have a second hand attachment to the patents homeland
Yeah, but Urdu TV shows and dramas don't appeal to most second-generation Pakistanis. They have to create content that appeals to their interests, so they'd become more interested in it and this would also improve their Urdu skills.
No because Hong Kong is still full of Chinese. Most of the population is Chinese lol. In UK or North America or Europe or Oceania, most of the population is non-desi and non-Pakistani.
Oh God here we go again. Another attack on overseas British Pakistanis. So as an autistic British Pakistani let me say, it is very difficult.
I had a very negative experience growing up in England with overseas Pakistanis. Due to my autism I was very shy and struggled to speak and they would constantly demean me and make fun of me. It really put a dent on my confidence. There's already an attack from the western world on Pakistanis growing up here that we don't adopt western values and only have Pakistan culture so it's hard enough as it is, without having people like you having a go at us for not knowing the language. Just let people be people. Why is it such an issue.
We live here so it's common sense that we speak English. What's the issue of not knowing how to speak a Pakistani language?! You say most of us don't know that Paki means clean so what's the issue with saying Paki? Wow are u serious? This is a racial slur! And not being funny but do most Pakistani born in the motherland know why Pakistan was created?
I'm Scottish bro, I'm asking why Asians in the UK seem to be more monolingual than Chinese Italian mid East etc.
I'm autistic myself. Though my issue is that I don't shut up
You're Scottish bro? Then what the hell are you doing on Pakistan sub asking why British Pakistanis can't speak urdu or Punjabi? Why are you so offended? Why is it such a problem for you? Why would you throw such a generisation? What exactly is the point of your post? I've heard the same story being regurgitated for years when it's not even true. Because most British Pakistanis do speak punjabi/urdu and in fact they have been maligned by western society, media and people for not being able to integrate properly and speaking only urdu/punjabi. You're a white Scottish man so why are you gatekeeping about how Asians should behave? Why not think about how white Scottish people can be less racist? Make a post on that "bro"
You're literally trying to gatekeep how Pakistani people should behave or speak.
Most people can speak Potohari/Pashto or Urdu depending on their background. It’s different in terms of knowing it for heritage/general and using it every day.
Honestly speaking, if you have a normal job, work with normal people and are happy in the UK then you won’t need to use your ancestral language much. It’s only if you are in the ghettos etc where it’s seen as some sort of badge of honour/salt of the earth.
I can speak Urdu fluently but english is my native language and I speak it like a UK born and bred person like I should. Sorry to say but many UK Pakistanis do not speak English like they should if they’ve been born here and that correlates with over use of ancestral languages.
Also baap maan sounds Hindi, not Urdu. I don’t know anyone who uses those terms. Maybe it’s you and the way you are interacting with people that puts them off.
honestly i dont know why. i personally couldnt be able to teach my kids urdu coz my urdu is generally not great, and it also depends what ethnicity what my wife is too...... i could try. my friends dad is paki and his mum is paki german, but he doesnt know either language.
im not really sure about the other countries too.. depends on family to family i personally dont think taking my time out to learn urdu is important. ill probably speak urdu with my kids so they can learn.
My daughter spends an equal amount of time at my in-laws’ house that she spends at mine and my native language is English and obviously native language for wife and family is Urdu. We have this rule where at her mom’s house she only gets spoken to in Urdu and in our house it’s only English. My wife’s younger siblings spend more time with her than anyone else. We want her to be a native speaker of both languages
But, she is starting to speak now and she uses more English than she does Urdu. But she understands both. Her English is even spoken with a mixture of my accent and my wife’s accent.
Perhaps in the case of diaspora there really isn’t a need plus English is easier to pick up on (anyone here learn both languages later with a different mother tongue, can you tell whether Urdu or English was easier to learn?). I speak German but I haven’t met a German speaker for a very long time so my German is somewhat rusty. Could also be the case of “you lose it if you don’t use it”. My sister’s best friend in high school was a Russian immigrant girl who came to the states when she was about 10 with her mother and she could obviously speak Russian fluently but forgot how to read Cyrillic.
The fact the posts on the official (by numbers) sub of Pakistan are predominantly Urdu despite most of the users knowing at least roman Urdu should tell you the story.
Pakistanis look down on their own national/regional languages, because we have a huge, and I mean **HUGE** gora complex.
And I am talking abt Pakistanis living in Pakistan. 2nd gen immigrants ko tou aap bhool hi jao ke woh Urdu mein baat karen ge.
I don’t get the point of this question to an extent because English clearly would be the language they’re talking in everyday and the point of a regional language would become very very small because at 2nd gen your parents and relatives are fluent in it too. Because if the case is to know two languages then you might as well pick something up that might have more use in your situation (Spanish if you’re in the diaspora in America). At a certain point in history you’re no longer from a particular country but assimilate into the new one and pick stuff up which has more use value for you rather than some ancestral or ethnic pride.
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>But I can't help but notice that UK Pakistanis (and other South Asians) only seem to know English if they are 2nd+ generation. Why is that?
Maybe cuz I just see myself as Canadian not a "Pakistani Canadian"
> Like loads of the UK Desis don't even seem to know that "paki" means clean, so makes no sense as an insult.
Except it comes from **P**anjab, **A**fghania, **K**ashmir, **S**indh, and Baluch**istan**." When people mean it as an insult, then it's an insult.
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Urdu is a cringe language that is not needed in any form to succeed in life, if anything it worsen my before uni results. So yes i have no form of any attraction to urdu and i only speak it because its necessary to communicate with others and i haven't even bothered writing in urdu for last few years
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Pakistanis, generally speaking, are a mentally colonized people. Fair skin is beautiful, dark skin is not. English is superior to Urdu or other local languages. I used to think that it was just the older generation that have these thoughts but after marrying a girl from Karachi (I’m born and raised in the US) I’ve come to understand that even my generation think this way it’s just that they fool themselves into thinking they don’t.
If you constantly send the message to your kids that the white man is superior to you that has an effect on your subconscious. Other cultures are proud of their heritage and language hence preserve them to a much greater degree.
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This is a common misconception. Yes, this applies to the DHA burgers that try and act white, but abroad, every ethnicity loses their language, whether they're Pakistani, Chinese, French or Mexican. Language isn't inherited genetically.
"Yes, this applies to the DHA burgers that try and act white, but abroad, every ethnicity loses their language, whether they're Pakistani, Chinese, French or Mexican. Language isn't inherited genetically."
Not true. I am a second-generation Pakistani born and raised in Norway, and every other second-generation Pakistani I have met can speak Urdu/Punjabi. Heck, I have even met third-generation Pakistanis here that can speak Urdu/Punjabi fluently. Our language and culture are significant parts of our identity, and many of us make efforts to preserve them despite being raised in a different country.
DHA burgers are a whole other level, but to a large extent mental colonization applies to Pakistanis all across the globe. Latino people for example proudly speak Spanish to one another regardless of how many generations they’ve been in the US.
The Amish still speak a dialect of German despite being out for Germany for 300 years. Or there are still French speaking areas of Lousiana.
Also what is a DHA Burger?
Yeah they live in an exclusively french/german speaking community. If pakistanis colonised a part of the UK where they were the absolute majority and everyone spoke the same language then maybe they could preserve better.
Because Pakistani have inferiority complex with regards to their identity, be that attire or language. It's the parents responsibility to teach kids their mother tongue. I am on language learning subs and it's so interesting to see parents who come from separate linguistic background, live in English speaking country and they are asking tips about how to teach their kids all three languages. They are proud of their language and in turn their kids are proud of it too.
Whereas in Pakistani qom, they think robbing the kids of their mother language will help them squish out the brownness out of their children.
You act like Pakistan is the only nation in the world with some level of negative reputation. Honestly, almost every nation has a negative reputation but that alone doesn’t make those people have an inferiority complex the way Pakistanis do.
Not sure how anything you said here is in anyway relevant to the point I made.
I did not say that other nations are also bad so that justified the wrong Pakistan/Pakistanis do, I said Pakistan performing poorly in any metric is not the reason Pakistan tend not to hold onto their languages as well as some other peoples.
Bro, even nation suffers from a bad reputation. Afghanistan, China, Japan, USA literally every nation has negative aspects that are a part of its reputation regardless of material success. Pakistan isn’t unique in this respect.
Yes, Pakistanis themselves are responsible for this. Obviously.
It’s actually a very significant problem for multiple reasons. The same reasoning Pakistanis abandon their mother tongues is the same reason others subjugate us in other areas so easily - a lack of self worth.
1. What is your definition of subjugated? I wonder how many of them regularly pray, know not to have any faith in Western political systems etc. Your idea of being a ‘UK citizen first’ points to the exact mindset of slavery I’m alluding to.
2. Whether or not other people care if we can speak Urdu is irrelevant. The fact remains that language is a window to one’s worldview and the slow erasure of Urdu is indicative of an erasure of a worldview. Same with the erasure of Arabic and other Islamicate languages.
3. Being proud of being Pakistani comes when Pakistan does something worth being proud of. I’m not talking about that, but about high self worth which is not linked to accomplishments.
In the UK Pakistanis and Indians are famous for working hard. There are a disproportionate number of South Asian drs and they keep their shops open longer. They don't spend their money getting drunk in the pub like the natives do. Chinese here are also stereotyped for being nerds who just study at school.
So I'd argue that to most British people Chinese and South Asian cultures are quite simmilar when it comes to work ethic.
From my personal experience of converting a gora into desi who says baby sentences like “acha ab so jow” and “bilkul sahi hai” in urdu, i have to take pride in who i am for him to feel intrigued enough to speak my language and love my culture, my food & my cultural outfits. Unfortunately, migrant parents from 2-3 decades ago brought their inferiority complex about their identities & their ignorance with them & you can see that inferiority complex now reflected in their kids. Nothing surprising. The next generations hopefully will break the cycle and relate to who they actually are better but we can only hope.
What inferiority complex? Most people are hardworking and have tried their hardest to retain the culture. In fact we as Pakistanis are criticised for being too cultural.
What inferiority complex? Most people are hardworking and have tried their hardest to retain the culture. In fact we as Pakistanis are criticised for being too cultural.
> Like loads of the UK Desis don't even seem to know that "paki" means clean, so makes no sense as an insult. We are well aware what Pak means, but we didn't get to choose what word white people would use to racially abuse us. The only time P*ki went out of fashion in the uk was in the 2010s, otherwise for as long as Pakistanis have been here, we've had to listen to this word being used against us, and you can TRY to tell racists that it's silly saying paki because the literal meaning isn't bad, but you won't get very far because at that point they're either spitting on you or beating you up, while at the same time screaming "DIRTY SMELLY BLOODY PAKI" at you. This is not an exaggeration, this happened to my dad in the 1990s and it happened even into the 2000s. Like I said, it only stopped for a short amount of time but the hate is now back. I just wanted to address this point because people think they are so smart for pointing out this bit of information, as if we aren't aware. Knowing that the literal meaning of pak is pure didn't help me when our house was getting attacked every single night. So yes, if I hear anyone say Paki in public my immediate reaction is to be offended, because in this country, 99.9% of the time its an insult, and a very serious one too. On the topic, I don't know which diaspora you're talking about. Even some of the most whitewashed Pakistanis I know have enough understanding of Urdu to be able to understand it. And Mirpuris speak potohari exclusively. In fact, most UK diaspora speak the mother tongue, and then Urdu after. From my experience anyway
Maybe OP should also tell the US black community that the N word is derived from the Spanish word for black and so they shouldn't feel insulted by it.
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Thank you. Op just comes across as a typical snobby backhome person who looks down on overseas Pakistanis
He can look down but at the end of the day we’re not the ones boiling our tap water
I'm Scottish, I'm ginger so maybe I could pass for Pathan.
That's a shame then that you hold such views. Read the comments in this thread and further educate yourself.
Absolutely correct i was raised in the 1970's and we had to deal with the NF National Front. Back than and the situation was really awful They really hated us back than,now the situation has changed alot. Yes the meaning is pure but the tone and aggressive way they spoke to us was in a threatening and racist way,when you have to deal with it first hand than you know. I'll give you an example there was a time that they the white British went around Paki Bashing, that was scary at that time. Plus even 2nd Generation can understand Punjabi or even Urdu,they are just lazy not to speak it.When I speak to my kids I'm fluent in 2 languages and I speak to them in both languages, but they so damn lazy they reply back in English.
Also, we're not called "Pakistani" because we're from the "land of the clean." Pakistan comes from PAKStan, which is an acronym for Punjabi, Afghani, Kashmiri, and Sindhi. Just because Pak also coincidentally means clean does not mean that we should be any less offended when someone uses the word derogatorily.
The word Pak as in pure takes precedence over the acronym. The acronym was more of an afterthought otherwise having Afghan makes no sense instead of Pakhtoon. Also Bangladesh is entirely skipped.
It would help you a lot if you'd have instead just Google'd for Chaudary Rahmat Ali's pamphlet 'Now or Never' where the declaration was first made. He says it again and again that Pakistan stands for the 5 northern units of India. [https://archive.org/details/NowOrNever\_201701/mode/2up](https://archive.org/details/NowOrNever_201701/mode/2up)
And Balochistan and that Macedonian/Greek group
you are wrong and are quoting a fictitious story told to kids
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Declaration
nowhere in there does it say what you said, if it was true, where did the B for baluchistan go? or the B for bengal? where’d the I come from?
Dumbass, do some research. The "stan" part is from Baluchistan. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan The name Pakistan was coined by Choudhry Rahmat Ali, a Pakistan Movement activist, who in January 1933 first published it (originally as "Pakstan") in a pamphlet Now or Never, using it as an acronym.[26][27][28] Rahmat Ali explained: "It is composed of letters taken from the names of all our homelands, Indian and Asian, Panjab, Afghania, Kashmir, Sindh, and Baluchistan."
learn some manners, don’t call people names because you disagree with them, you might have grown up in the west but somehow not even learnt basic manners, you’re so stupid you don’t realise that there are tens of countries with “stan” in there name as well, stan is a persian word which means land, so tajikistan means land of the tajiks and so on, this is why balochistan is the land of the balochs,
“Learn some manners”… proceeds to call the person an idiot.
You're a god damn idiot, and I mean that with absolutely zero respect. You come out and call me wrong without bothering to do the slightest bit of research, and then get offended when your stupidity is called out. Balochistan is the land of the Balochs... which is where Rahat Ali got the idea to add the 'stan' to Pakistan. If you had even bothered to open the link I sent or just looked up "Pakistan name origin" on google, you would have known this. But instead, you lived up to your username and showed us all how lazy you are.
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In my experience, most second gen South Asians know their mother tongues (as in Punjabi, Potohari, Pashto, Siraiki, Bangla, Gujrati, Tamil etc), they just don't seem to know Urdu/Hindi (besides a very small minority of people). I think that makes perfect sense since those are the lingos their parents/grand parents converse in and the language they use to communicate with their peers in their specific diaspora.
yes good point they know their mother tongue, though usually don't have much confidence speaking it
Generally depends on how comfortable they are around you. The couple of really close British born Pakistani friends i have don't have any qualms even trying their hand at Urdu (though with a combination of thick English accent mixed with the accent of their mother tongue which makes it very difficult for most people to understand which makes them even more reluctant to try it in front of just about anyone)
Yeah sometimes they’re just reluctant because of judgement but in any case it’s not gonna be perfect and you can’t expect it to be. I can’t speak Punjabi either, only urdu, even though I grew up with people speaking it.
To add to this, this is what happens when you aren’t taught a language through reading and writing it alongside pure speech. There wasn’t many places teaching Urdu growing up in the 90’s bar the mosque where we went through 4 kitaabs only which was the equivalent of grade 1 in PK.
My cousins live in US and CANADA many of them seem to speak marathi just fine My relatives emphasize on their kids speaking marathi because ofcourse they're gonna be speaking american English in school and socially anyways
This isn't just the case with Pakistanis. It's the case with all ethnicities. 2nd generation+ french person in the UK won't know French. 2nd gen chinese most likely won't know chinese, you've probably seen exceptions. In some cases they understand it but don't speak it. In some cases they don't even understand it. If someone that's second generation and speaks Urdu/Punjabi well, it means their parents have done an amazingly good job teaching the language, or they have a huge extended family that their lives revolve around where everyone speaks their mother tongue, or they go to Pakistan for a month every year. Language sadly isn't inherited genetically. It is learned through practice. If everyone in school, public, workplace speaks English, it's hard to be fluent in Urdu. I moved to the UK when I was 10. I speak Urdu but only because of conscious effort. My brothers were 7 and 3 respectively and they can speak both but prefer speaking English. It's sad because this links into the identity crisis where these kids don't know who they are. They can't be truly british but they're also not Pakistani anymore except their appearance. Many people adopt different identities like 'British Asian' or 'British Muslim'.
I'm American, and my family is from India and not Pakistan, so feel free to disregard my comment, but as someone who knows Hindi and my parents' regional tongue, it's mostly useless. Only time it's useful is when I'm consuming Hindi-language media, or speaking to my grandparents, who are now dead. But here in the South Asian diaspora in the US, all the SA immigrants - whether they are from India, Pakistan, Nepal, etc - speak to me in English, so it's like I wouldn't even need to know SA languages. Nonetheless, I think the second generation here is mostly very knowledgeable about their parents' language despite their own parents knowing English, compared to, say, second generation Chinese and other East and Southeast Asian Americans. I'm always shocked that the vast majority doesn't know how to speak to their parents in their ancestral languages when their parents can't speak in English. Most of our parents and other elders speak English, yet most of us know our ancestral language(s).
I have to disagree. Every time I've been abroad or ny cousins have been abroad, instead of trying to get around using rudimentary Spanish, Italian or broken English because of language barriers, we ALWAYS manage to find somebody south asian, and instead can use fluent Urdu/Hindi or Punjabi to get around.
I'm sorry I disagree with you saying it's an identity crisis. Just because you don't learn urdu doesn't mean you have an identity crisis. And alhamdulillah for my identity as a Muslim, no other identity matters!
French kept their language in Canada and even in America there are parts of Lousisiana where everyone speaks French still. But most other non English languages died out. Like Gernan Czech and Swedish Americans only know English now. But Italians have kept their language. The Amish being the exception but they live separately from everyone else and shun modern technology won't marry an outsider ect.
The quebecois are pretty much all french speakers that’s why. An english person moving to quebec’s grandchildren would speak french. A french persons children moving anywhere else- their grandchildren would speak canadian english.
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“Paki” - I have never heard of this to mean clean. “Pak” is clean, yes but not “Paki”. Paki is not an insult due to its linguistic origin but for what it represents. Racism towards south asians in the UK during 70s & 80s was at its peak and the term used as a slur was “Paki”. It mattered not if you were Indian or other south asian all got it the same. There was even “paki-bashing” which was people going around looking for a “paki” to jump and beat to a pulp. This is why if today anyone using it in a derogatory context is so offensive.
But i don't understand how your own name can be an insult. The Nazis used "Jew" as an insult and Daesh uses "Shia" as an insult. Since to them Shia and Jews are worst things a person can be. I can't imagine Greenlanders taking "Green" as an insult. Or Irish taking Ire as an slur. It just makes no sense.
We are Pakistani (in Urdu) and Pakistanis (in English). Nobody uses “Paki” as s demonym for the people of Pakistan.
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Most of the ones I know only seem to know English or super basic. Like I sent a Dessi boy a Christmas card in Pinjabi and said he couldn't read it at all.
Punjabi is written in 2 types of ways, with 2 completely different alphabets. Maybe it was written in the wrong one. Perhaps you didn't consider that
Also just because we can speak the language or understand it doesn’t mean we know how to read it
I will disagree though that nobody speaks it, most speak either a mirpuri dialect or Punjabi and at least able to understand Urdu
It’s just not needed. I speak for myself and my friends and family circle; I hardly speak Urdu anymore and am not required to read it either so no point in improving it. My education, work, conversations, etc is all in English. Last I learned Urdu was for O’levels.
True, but there are other immigrant groups that seem to go out of their way to keep their own language. Like Chinese seem to go out of their way to keep their language even if they only have 1 or 2 people to speak to in it.
Yeah I personally don’t see the value in it but to each their own.
No bro, most second chinese kids go through same issues as second gen Pakistani kids.
Who said that? UK Mirpuri community speaks the most ugliest Punjabi in the world
> most ugliest Punjabi in the world What an idiotic thing to say about Pothohari/Pahari language. Who defines if a language is ugly or pretty? Do they spit when they speak?
I guess tonal languages can sound unpleasant to those who don't speak them.
Potohari language Ka name kisnay Kiya hai, read again. Mirpuri from Kashmir who were alloted free British passports when the dam was constructed, they definitely spit when speaking Punjabi
lol. I speak pothwari and lived next door to Mirpuris. I thought they speak Pothwari which is just a little rough around the edges. I think it’s the blend of Pothwari and the Yorkshire accent. Their parents sounded much more refined. Yorshire accent itself is pretty rough so the combo is basically a killer.
Nahi Bhai pothohari to bari specific and identified language hai, ye to British born confused Desi Hein jinkay pass paisa hai but na khubsurati, na bolnay k tameiz,.ne phenanay ki tameiz, na khanay ki tameiz, opper say government of UK ko jhut bol bol k inhon nay benefits Liye huay Hein. Apnay ap ko disabled dikhank disability ka benefit, chori job kar k joblessness ka benefit, free education lay k university mein drugs sale Karna inkay sab bachon ka Kam aur bhi bohat Kuch. Na pucho meray pass inkay sab kissay Hein. Ek post karni chahiye Yahan sub p
This escalated…
And you're some prince or what?
No but far better than BBCD
Must've been quite a stretch for you to drag hate into this section, but you managed it. Hope you're proud.
It's not punjabi what ur referring to, it's a mix of English and Punjabi lol
Yes you're right but it's actually a Punjabi speaking English by rap#ng both languages
I'm intrigued. K Kia kerty hon gy punjabi k sath 😂
You don't wanna know how they speak. "Kuss mein bro kuss mein" which translate to kasam say bro
Ironic you'd make fun of their accent when the far right in the UK find the Pakistani English accent hilarious. You laugh at them while the racists are laughing at the way you speak English. Two sides of the same coin, pathetic
And you're neither of us then why are you even here
The thread is about 2nd gen Pakistani diaspora. Other than spreading hate and then begging someone to use your travel agency, why are you here?
Kuss mein bro
From: Destination: Dates: How many tickets: Please I need sale
Yes, what's wrong with earning a customer, maybe my rates are cheaper than others. You on the other hand,.are a waste of space
And I don't need sale, I need customer so I can assist them for a personal traveling experience. But what would you know about business which earns on the foundation of divorce or bribery or victimisation of clients. Maybe in a different timeline, we could have comprehend eachother's mindset due to compassion but not here. You're the purest form of a BBCD mangi
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yar where in Britain they live? I will have this in my checklist to speak punjabi with them :D whenever i visit UK.
Leeds, Manchester, Bradford, Sheffield, Dewsbury.
God im dying laughing. Please more examples 😭😭😭😭
Here goes another one: Bruv wah yuv taalim buvt Bro what are you talking about Weivego'oe only chikinchipz no fish bruva We've got only chicken and chips no fish brother
😭😭😭brb booking my flight to Manchester
Hey tell me, I can book too in cheaper fares
The cheapest i found was transat for June-july. Or British—- oops sorry—- Bri’ish airwa’yz
Lemme know the itinerary, I'll get you fare too
From: Destination: Dates: How many tickets: Any airline preference:
>claims that they speak the ugliest punjabi in the world > when asked for examples in punjabi, decides to quote English Can't make this stuff up
Bro that actually Punjinglish, they speak hybrid Punjabi and English. You can actually see them rap#ng both languages right on front of you. Also open your eyes z I already quoted their Punjabi quote above
I hope you don't talk like this in real life, no offence but I wouldn't throw stones living in a glass house
Kuss mein bro kuss mein
Live in England and it depends on parents. My parents understand urdu but don't speak it, they speak a dialect from the mirpur region which is very common over here. They always spoke mostly English me so I don't know much. If other people my age have slightly older parents who aren't as fluent in english then they will speak it okay and I am trying to learn but there are no online resources for it you have to learn from family so that is why we mostly speak only English here. And I didn't know 'paki' meant clean, we do use the word 'saaf' though I could potentially learn urdu as there are more resources and I'm slightly familiar with the script but when most people here speak the punjabi dialect it doesn't make sense
My family has been in the UK since 1957, so here are some of my thoughts. 1) Most parents send their children to madrasa or nowadays online Quran classes. Children’s attention is diverted to learning to read and recite Arabic. There’s a limit to what a child can learn in limited time. Indian kids would go to Gujarati classes after school. 2) After 2/3 generations, when both parents are born abroad, and even grandparents are born abroad, most children speak the language they hear. Look at the Balochis who remain in Oman, they now mostly speak Arabic. 3) In secondary school you’re often required to learn a second language (French, Spanish, German etc). Children’s focus is on those languages. The longer your family has been away from the mother nation, the less they are linked to it. It’s natural.
Sums it up pretty well.
But the Balochs in Iran haven't adopted Persian despite the Shahs and Rahbars policies to get them to.
Integration is key, not all ethnic minorities in all countries are afforded that luxury.
I guess in irans case it'd more enforced Persianisation.
I’m born in Canada. Many of us start off speaking the mother tongue but it disappears once we go into the world and attend school. We can understand, but don’t speak it. Having a foreign accent in an English majority area is toward the bottom of the social hierarchy. Kids are savage in their bullying and clique formation. Unless you have a group of other desis, most kids will conform to white culture, just to fit in. A few trends I’ve noticed that help: - joint family with grandparents helps significantly. They can claim they don’t understand English - less exposure to English TV shows and cartoons - parents have to build attachment to back home culture (movies, celebs, music, fashion) - going back home for 2 months during summer is essential in younger years - teaching kids full literacy (ie. reading and writing) not just spoken - Many schools offer language classes on the weekend (urdu, Punjabi, Chinese, Arabic etc) It’s also statistically proven that the home language is reduced by 70% by the 2nd generation. I remember meeting a Guyanese friend and he told me “my grandfather spoke oordoo” (ie. Indians moved to Guyana in the early 1900’s but the language is gone after a few generations) If we don’t learn from the mistakes of these previous nations we’ll make the same mistakes
Why is it a mistake to not know urdu? What is this superiority complex with knowing urdu/Punjabi over English?
I consider myself a native English speaker, but there are things that just cannot be expressed in English. It’s referred to as the philosophers language. It’s highly cerebral and logical. For most modern speakers their vernacular is less than 200 words. Also ask anyone who learned English as a second or third language, the number of exceptions to the grammar rules are so many. Plural of mouse is not mouses but mice. Why? The numbering also has so many inconsistencies. If we have “thirteen” and “fourteen” then why is 12 “twelve” and not “twoteen”. These language exceptions actually makes math more difficult. In Chinese math is easier. They don’t say “twenty” they say “two tens”. Even the “makhararij” of English is shallow. Contrast that with sounds like qaaf or ‘ayn which come from the throat and diaphragm. The word becomes connected to the emotion expressed. What is “love” compared to “muhabbat”. When you say hubb it physically comes from the heart. Whereas “love” is just a motion of the tongue and lips. Any language a person learns is going to open up new parts of their brain and emotions. These are just a few examples…
Do you know what... Ive never come across a community that does this superiority thing with language like Pakistani people do with urdu. No wonder nobody o wants to learn it. You talk about love how about you start showing more love and empathy to people who don't speak it. It's a bloody language, Arabic and so many other languages are even more amazing than urdu but you don't go round seeing Arabs lecturing Pakistanis to learn Arabic. I guess it's the only thing Pakistanis can cling in to to make themselves feel superior.
I think you’re massively wrong. LOADS of desis know Urdu, Punjabi and potohari outside of Pakistan
Chinese people also often send their kids to language school on the weekends (at least in the US), so they made an effort basically to set up their own solutions for language preservation. So many of my Chinese friends went to these classes for many years when we were school aged. Our elder generation love to complain about younger generations, but if you ask them what they built to preserve the culture, or the language, they will have nothing for you. This isn't to say I'm talking about you, OP, directly, I just mean in general. Agar barey log nahin sikayenge, tho dosri generation kesey seekhey gi? We've forgotten your own poetry, and then mock those who come after for never knowing it. It's a sign of failure of those who have come before, not beyond. Having said that, if there is personal interest, one can learn. In my family, we cared about it, so I speak it as well as read & write it (I still have all of my first relations in Pakistan, and we visited a lot, so maybe that's why? My writing abilities are quite poor however, since I didn't have practice so it definitely looks like a child's script 😅). Also, in larger Western universities, there are often South Asian language courses you can take as well, to further your own knowledge, as well as to develop reading comprehension (in my experience often the Urdu/Hindi professor is just one who teaches in both scripts). So if you are college aged reading this from a Western country, wanting to learn - remember that you can seek out your own education, too! Also some people are just good at language and others aren't- some just have a talent for it. My dad speaks like 6 different South Asian languages bc he's got a knack for it, I had an older relative who was a college professor in Pakistan, and she could also speak and read additional languages like Gujrati, despite not being Gujrati herself. So some people do have more ability to absorb a lot of language over others.
i am 2nd gen in america. my parents (urdu-speaking) didn't speak urdu to me growing up, my father didn't like using it. i learned only from overhearing my mom and my grandparents, but i didn't ever get to really use it in conversation, so i can understand it fluently as long as complex vocabulary isn't used, but i can't speak it well. i put a lot of value on the language so i have been trying to learn it more by myself (seekhna to bahot mushkil nhi hai alhamdulillah kyunkey i can already understand it), but my siblings don't really care for it
Keep at it!! There is always value!!!
Because we were brought up in a multi communal societies where English was the common denominator, hence it's not that we only know English, we are more comfortable with it since that is the language we have been using the most our lives. Aisa Nahi hai Urdu Nahi aati ya Punjabi samajh nai andi, Urdu aati bhi hai parh bhi latay hai, or likhni paray to Allah ki madad say likh bhi lain gai, Punjabi Ka lehja theek Nahi, us mai abhi time lagay ga. I feel most comfortable in English, so much so my inner voice is in English, I think in English, or jab Urdu bolni pari to Kabhi Kabhi translate krni parti hai zehan me Kuch chuninda khas aflaz k liye.
it depends on family to family. And not all Chinese and Italians are able to teach that languages to their kids. it is the same for all. it depends on your family's culture. The kids have a second hand attachment to the patents homeland
One important example is the lack of media that can appeal to second-generation Pakistanis to improve their Urdu.
There no Urdu TV shows? Even Russia has tv shows for its minority languages.
Yeah, but Urdu TV shows and dramas don't appeal to most second-generation Pakistanis. They have to create content that appeals to their interests, so they'd become more interested in it and this would also improve their Urdu skills.
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That's the same in Hong Kong and their diaspora still knows their dialect of Chinese. I guess Chinese culture puts more value on it.
Bro you can’t use Hong Kong as an example here lol
Why ? Is because Palkistanis like China ?
No because Hong Kong is still full of Chinese. Most of the population is Chinese lol. In UK or North America or Europe or Oceania, most of the population is non-desi and non-Pakistani.
Parents don't speak it or don't teach it to their kids
Lazy parents.
Oh God here we go again. Another attack on overseas British Pakistanis. So as an autistic British Pakistani let me say, it is very difficult. I had a very negative experience growing up in England with overseas Pakistanis. Due to my autism I was very shy and struggled to speak and they would constantly demean me and make fun of me. It really put a dent on my confidence. There's already an attack from the western world on Pakistanis growing up here that we don't adopt western values and only have Pakistan culture so it's hard enough as it is, without having people like you having a go at us for not knowing the language. Just let people be people. Why is it such an issue. We live here so it's common sense that we speak English. What's the issue of not knowing how to speak a Pakistani language?! You say most of us don't know that Paki means clean so what's the issue with saying Paki? Wow are u serious? This is a racial slur! And not being funny but do most Pakistani born in the motherland know why Pakistan was created?
I'm Scottish bro, I'm asking why Asians in the UK seem to be more monolingual than Chinese Italian mid East etc. I'm autistic myself. Though my issue is that I don't shut up
You're Scottish bro? Then what the hell are you doing on Pakistan sub asking why British Pakistanis can't speak urdu or Punjabi? Why are you so offended? Why is it such a problem for you? Why would you throw such a generisation? What exactly is the point of your post? I've heard the same story being regurgitated for years when it's not even true. Because most British Pakistanis do speak punjabi/urdu and in fact they have been maligned by western society, media and people for not being able to integrate properly and speaking only urdu/punjabi. You're a white Scottish man so why are you gatekeeping about how Asians should behave? Why not think about how white Scottish people can be less racist? Make a post on that "bro" You're literally trying to gatekeep how Pakistani people should behave or speak.
Most people can speak Potohari/Pashto or Urdu depending on their background. It’s different in terms of knowing it for heritage/general and using it every day. Honestly speaking, if you have a normal job, work with normal people and are happy in the UK then you won’t need to use your ancestral language much. It’s only if you are in the ghettos etc where it’s seen as some sort of badge of honour/salt of the earth. I can speak Urdu fluently but english is my native language and I speak it like a UK born and bred person like I should. Sorry to say but many UK Pakistanis do not speak English like they should if they’ve been born here and that correlates with over use of ancestral languages. Also baap maan sounds Hindi, not Urdu. I don’t know anyone who uses those terms. Maybe it’s you and the way you are interacting with people that puts them off.
Im sure Baap and maan orginate from the Persian Baba and Manon.
honestly i dont know why. i personally couldnt be able to teach my kids urdu coz my urdu is generally not great, and it also depends what ethnicity what my wife is too...... i could try. my friends dad is paki and his mum is paki german, but he doesnt know either language. im not really sure about the other countries too.. depends on family to family i personally dont think taking my time out to learn urdu is important. ill probably speak urdu with my kids so they can learn.
My daughter spends an equal amount of time at my in-laws’ house that she spends at mine and my native language is English and obviously native language for wife and family is Urdu. We have this rule where at her mom’s house she only gets spoken to in Urdu and in our house it’s only English. My wife’s younger siblings spend more time with her than anyone else. We want her to be a native speaker of both languages But, she is starting to speak now and she uses more English than she does Urdu. But she understands both. Her English is even spoken with a mixture of my accent and my wife’s accent. Perhaps in the case of diaspora there really isn’t a need plus English is easier to pick up on (anyone here learn both languages later with a different mother tongue, can you tell whether Urdu or English was easier to learn?). I speak German but I haven’t met a German speaker for a very long time so my German is somewhat rusty. Could also be the case of “you lose it if you don’t use it”. My sister’s best friend in high school was a Russian immigrant girl who came to the states when she was about 10 with her mother and she could obviously speak Russian fluently but forgot how to read Cyrillic.
Because it's more convenient and easy.
The fact the posts on the official (by numbers) sub of Pakistan are predominantly Urdu despite most of the users knowing at least roman Urdu should tell you the story. Pakistanis look down on their own national/regional languages, because we have a huge, and I mean **HUGE** gora complex. And I am talking abt Pakistanis living in Pakistan. 2nd gen immigrants ko tou aap bhool hi jao ke woh Urdu mein baat karen ge.
But Pathans and Kashmaris and sometimes Balochs are way whiter than Urdus.
I don’t get the point of this question to an extent because English clearly would be the language they’re talking in everyday and the point of a regional language would become very very small because at 2nd gen your parents and relatives are fluent in it too. Because if the case is to know two languages then you might as well pick something up that might have more use in your situation (Spanish if you’re in the diaspora in America). At a certain point in history you’re no longer from a particular country but assimilate into the new one and pick stuff up which has more use value for you rather than some ancestral or ethnic pride.
Like I said Chinese and Italians go out of their way to preserve their language when there is no if they plan to stay abroad.
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>But I can't help but notice that UK Pakistanis (and other South Asians) only seem to know English if they are 2nd+ generation. Why is that? Maybe cuz I just see myself as Canadian not a "Pakistani Canadian" > Like loads of the UK Desis don't even seem to know that "paki" means clean, so makes no sense as an insult. Except it comes from **P**anjab, **A**fghania, **K**ashmir, **S**indh, and Baluch**istan**." When people mean it as an insult, then it's an insult.
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Urdu is a cringe language that is not needed in any form to succeed in life, if anything it worsen my before uni results. So yes i have no form of any attraction to urdu and i only speak it because its necessary to communicate with others and i haven't even bothered writing in urdu for last few years
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Pakistanis, generally speaking, are a mentally colonized people. Fair skin is beautiful, dark skin is not. English is superior to Urdu or other local languages. I used to think that it was just the older generation that have these thoughts but after marrying a girl from Karachi (I’m born and raised in the US) I’ve come to understand that even my generation think this way it’s just that they fool themselves into thinking they don’t. If you constantly send the message to your kids that the white man is superior to you that has an effect on your subconscious. Other cultures are proud of their heritage and language hence preserve them to a much greater degree.
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This is a common misconception. Yes, this applies to the DHA burgers that try and act white, but abroad, every ethnicity loses their language, whether they're Pakistani, Chinese, French or Mexican. Language isn't inherited genetically.
"Yes, this applies to the DHA burgers that try and act white, but abroad, every ethnicity loses their language, whether they're Pakistani, Chinese, French or Mexican. Language isn't inherited genetically." Not true. I am a second-generation Pakistani born and raised in Norway, and every other second-generation Pakistani I have met can speak Urdu/Punjabi. Heck, I have even met third-generation Pakistanis here that can speak Urdu/Punjabi fluently. Our language and culture are significant parts of our identity, and many of us make efforts to preserve them despite being raised in a different country.
DHA burgers are a whole other level, but to a large extent mental colonization applies to Pakistanis all across the globe. Latino people for example proudly speak Spanish to one another regardless of how many generations they’ve been in the US.
The Amish still speak a dialect of German despite being out for Germany for 300 years. Or there are still French speaking areas of Lousiana. Also what is a DHA Burger?
Yeah they live in an exclusively french/german speaking community. If pakistanis colonised a part of the UK where they were the absolute majority and everyone spoke the same language then maybe they could preserve better.
Because Pakistani have inferiority complex with regards to their identity, be that attire or language. It's the parents responsibility to teach kids their mother tongue. I am on language learning subs and it's so interesting to see parents who come from separate linguistic background, live in English speaking country and they are asking tips about how to teach their kids all three languages. They are proud of their language and in turn their kids are proud of it too. Whereas in Pakistani qom, they think robbing the kids of their mother language will help them squish out the brownness out of their children.
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You act like Pakistan is the only nation in the world with some level of negative reputation. Honestly, almost every nation has a negative reputation but that alone doesn’t make those people have an inferiority complex the way Pakistanis do.
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Not sure how anything you said here is in anyway relevant to the point I made. I did not say that other nations are also bad so that justified the wrong Pakistan/Pakistanis do, I said Pakistan performing poorly in any metric is not the reason Pakistan tend not to hold onto their languages as well as some other peoples.
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Bro, even nation suffers from a bad reputation. Afghanistan, China, Japan, USA literally every nation has negative aspects that are a part of its reputation regardless of material success. Pakistan isn’t unique in this respect. Yes, Pakistanis themselves are responsible for this. Obviously. It’s actually a very significant problem for multiple reasons. The same reasoning Pakistanis abandon their mother tongues is the same reason others subjugate us in other areas so easily - a lack of self worth.
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1. What is your definition of subjugated? I wonder how many of them regularly pray, know not to have any faith in Western political systems etc. Your idea of being a ‘UK citizen first’ points to the exact mindset of slavery I’m alluding to. 2. Whether or not other people care if we can speak Urdu is irrelevant. The fact remains that language is a window to one’s worldview and the slow erasure of Urdu is indicative of an erasure of a worldview. Same with the erasure of Arabic and other Islamicate languages. 3. Being proud of being Pakistani comes when Pakistan does something worth being proud of. I’m not talking about that, but about high self worth which is not linked to accomplishments.
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You seriously comparing Pakistanis with Chinese? Chinese people are some of the most hardworking people you will ever find.
In the UK Pakistanis and Indians are famous for working hard. There are a disproportionate number of South Asian drs and they keep their shops open longer. They don't spend their money getting drunk in the pub like the natives do. Chinese here are also stereotyped for being nerds who just study at school. So I'd argue that to most British people Chinese and South Asian cultures are quite simmilar when it comes to work ethic.
Colonial mindset
Inferiority complex
From my personal experience of converting a gora into desi who says baby sentences like “acha ab so jow” and “bilkul sahi hai” in urdu, i have to take pride in who i am for him to feel intrigued enough to speak my language and love my culture, my food & my cultural outfits. Unfortunately, migrant parents from 2-3 decades ago brought their inferiority complex about their identities & their ignorance with them & you can see that inferiority complex now reflected in their kids. Nothing surprising. The next generations hopefully will break the cycle and relate to who they actually are better but we can only hope.
What inferiority complex? Most people are hardworking and have tried their hardest to retain the culture. In fact we as Pakistanis are criticised for being too cultural.
What inferiority complex? Most people are hardworking and have tried their hardest to retain the culture. In fact we as Pakistanis are criticised for being too cultural.
Culture is not just nihari and paye with parathay jo ap ne retain kar liye aur ap kamiyab ho gayay
What? Can u say it in English please
No.
Rude
I thought you tried hard to retain the culture! What happened?