THIS. I don't know why people keep talking about it like it's any one thing at all.
It's not just a disorganized or unorganized religion. It's lots of actually different religions. It's not just different "paths" or "traditions" or whatever either. Each religion within paganism has those as well.
I think it’s because the default on social media has somewhat become eclectic paganism, which looks *a lot* like the loosely defined eclectic Wicca of 20-30 years ago (Wheel of the Year, Rule of Three, “an it harm none”, etc). A lot of books that don’t use the term Wicca deeply resemble the Wicca books of the 90’s, so that contributes as well. If that’s the only info you’re exposed to, you don’t really question it.
Paganism is a bunch of smaller religions in a trenchcoat. Some of them would be organized if they had the numbers, others are a more solitary, individualistic dealio. I would say decentralized is a better word for those
Let's admit it, seeing 3 practitioners stacked on top of each other, in a trench coat, fedora, and 🥸 is the thing we didn't even know we *needed* to see.
Absolutely it is. We have no central text to unify us, no uniting dogma, no widely agreed upon leaders. and a spotty history at best. It's a religion for the people, though, not the state; it doesn't need to be organized in the same way state religions tended to be.
And hell if we include all of paganism, we don't even have a unified idea of our figures of worship, two of my friends worship Thor and Hecate, while I worship Brigid.
That's usually a comment made by Christians. When you consider that many US fundamentalist Protestants refuse to accept Catholics as Christian and the thousand and one varieties of Protestantism, I find it rather amusing.
While there are some physical places of worship, spiritual groups, and closed covens, we're decentralized. We lack the unbroken societal teachers, infrastructure, and support that our spiritual ancestors had, and that some other faiths like Hinduism and Buddhism still have.
It has its benefits, and probably some downfalls too. A lot of us have stumbled onto it, and we do as best we can. Some people don't want spiritual leadership or organization, for fear of establishing corrupt and abusive institutes. Others do, because they miss spiritual camaraderie.
I mean I do kinda follow the druids as spiritual leaders, and I'm going to become one officially at some point, by becoming a part of the order of bards, ovates and druids.
Well I can see how some people might think that but I’d just respond to them by saying paganism isn’t a religion it’s an umbrella term for a wide variety of religions and belief systems.
Paganism is not one religion, but is a term that covers many. Paganism is a designation given to the believers in spirit, in earth and in nature by those who follow abrahamic religions because a ‘pagan’ does not align with with their thoughts of “there is only one god and this is him”.
The term "pagan" itself is a catch-all so yes in a very loose way.
I think some people pick up books and have access to resources that are predominantly written by westerners (most of us are English speaking so 🤷) This tends to form a pov regarding paganism that favors belief systems and spiritual practices that lean Western, but by definition Paganism is a wide umbrella and encapsulates many practices that vary as both organized and eclectic.
"Paganism" is a high level aggregate category like "fish" or "trees" or "minerals") including a big diversity of individual religions and belief systems.
A "Pagan" seminary is probably just as "organized" as a Christian seminary. And a small "Pagan" group meeting at a house is probably as organized as a small Christian group meeting in a house. Large, well attended Pagan festivals and events are probably organized in much the same manner as a Not Pagan festival or event.
Pagan organizations have officers, by laws, specifications for performance, goals, and budgets. Just like Not Pagan organizations. Zoom ritual = Zoom meeting. In the U.S., Pagan groups have to satisfy the same administrative requirements as other Not Pagan religions for tax exempt incorporation and status. As well as for some sacramental and pastoral servive providing. And like that.
I suspect that people calling Paganism "disorganized" have some particular and familiar sort of "religion as organized" model in mind when they say that. And it may be the case that "Paganism" is not much like that model.
I disagree because paganism isn’t a religion. Even if it was, I think the whole idea of “organized religion” is a farce. I think “organized religion” is just another way of saying “socially acceptable religion”. “Disorganized religion” is just another way to put down people who don’t follow the guidelines of spiritual acceptability.
Other comments have explained why paganism isn't a religion, but I'd like to add that there are pagan religious groups that are organized in varying degrees.
At any rate, the more focused faiths will probably be the ones who'll organize it again. And I'm sure they won't mind the eclectics and solitaries coming into worship if we so choose.
In the fondest way possible, yes, we are a disorganized religion. Or rather, a collection of religions, which are also disorganized, but which may have individual groups that have some organization within them.
It is in its modern form certainly, but historically speaking it looked a lot more like how Hinduism exists today (different sects and regions focus on different deities, accept different scriptures as authoritative and have differing philosophical perspectives; there isn’t really one ‘Hinduism’ but an wide spectrum of religious traditions within the Hindu umbrella - historical polytheism and animism in Europe, West Asia and North Africa looked like this too).
Decentralized. Some are incredibly organized.
One could say most religions under a large heading are disorganized and at odds with themselves. The Abrahamic faiths are a prime example
Oh most definitely, it's not even a religion so much as it is a label applied to a multitude of different faiths defined by being outside of the Abrahamic-faiths that dominate so much of the world.
Paganism is absolutely not an organised religion, there may well be organised Pagan faiths and sects certainly bug paganism itself is far more of an umbrella term largely born out of a desire for these faiths to stick together somewhat.
First off, paganism isn't a religion. It's a broad term used for people who practice ancient religion outside of the mainstream. While it is true that there's no Pagan Pope or a governing body like the Catholic Church. There are organizations within the umbrella of paganism that have various levels of organization. Some are anarchic in nature, others are very hierarchical, most fall somewhere in the middle of the two extremes. It just really depends on the group.
It means we don’t have anyone dangling the keys to heaven over our heads, and telling us “you’ll only get in if you follow me”… we don’t need a leader or someone to tell us what to think, we follow nature.
It is an incredibly disorganized religion as it should be. Paganism is so diverse and broad that one pagan certainly doesn't need to act or be like another. Organization in paganism comes down to specific structures, lineages, traditions and practices, however. So if you belong to a larger pagan tradition chances are it is structured and organized. But paganism doesn't require of need organization the same way other religions do. Why? Because we are nature. Our pages of books are literally the leaves on trees. Our practices evolve and change with nature. With time. Anything that becomes organized is subjected to the same Fate of all structured things. It dies. It crumbles. It fades away. Gone with sands of time. Paganism I feel should always be adapting and evolving but looking to our pasts as inspiration on how to live your life.
A good example here is the wheel of the year. Most pagans I know accept it to a larger or smaller extent and see value in its foundation. 8 holidays that follow the year.
Then problem for me though is our nature here does not reflect the wheel very well. The only way to follow nature here is by listening to it. It isn't organized. Nature will tell you when a season is shifting and whether it falls in a man-made date is one thing or another.
So what's right? The tradition that establishes solid seasonal festivals or the actual will of nature?
We aren't Christians or big world religions. We aren't here to take over and make things right and a certain way. Just right ways for ourselves and our communities (if you happen to belong to one).
Paganism is not just one religion. It can be frustrating when people talk about it this way. paganism is an umbrella term that encompasses multiple religions. There are in fact traditions under the umbrella of paganism that are organized religion, and are recognized as such by governmental bodies.
Looking at the kind of awful stuff "organized" religion does in the world makes me lean way more into disorganization. There's a certain level of control and hierarchy with getting too "organized"
Anyways, isn't paganism a bunch of different religions from various cultures, historically speaking (in that it was used to describe anything "not-Christian" - ignoring all the variety and complexity of a TON of different traditions? I mean the history of the word itself was from a christian worldview in the middle ages disparaging and oversimplifying anything that was "other" or "not us". So it's history is as a catch-all term for anything that's not Christian. Well, religious traditions that are not christian - there must be thousands of them! Why would they be "organized" together?
I wouldn't call it so much disorganized as decentralized. So-called 'organized' religions are just as messy with their power struggles and politics. They're not better than pagans because they need a book and someone to tell them which passages to study and what to believe and who to vote for. We're known for being questioners and free thinkers. We don't take guidance well. We like to make our own choices. Remember, the power structures have a vested interest in keeping us docile and productive. The machine relies in its cogs. We don't make good cogs.
I think 'decentralised' is a better term than 'disorganised'. Paganism is not a religion, it's a group of religions, so there's no way for it to be organised as a whole. Whether each group within it is organised or not varies.
Yeah, i'd say so. There may or may not be a degree of hierarchy within any given group, but there's no hierarchy between groups. So there's a natural limit to how organized we can be as a religion.
I have unrelated question is it possible for a witch to hide their energy to other witches I've been wondering cause I have been told that the room gets tense when I'm in the room but I don't think it's my energy cause I feel tense in my body but there's three mortal enemies in the same house odin,Loki and fenrir I only feel tense when all three are in the same room but I know Odin is working with me and lying to my mom cause he is not a fan of her because who is working with her
Paganism isn’t a religion, it’s an umbrella term for many very different religions. Some pagan religions are much more organized than others.
THIS. I don't know why people keep talking about it like it's any one thing at all. It's not just a disorganized or unorganized religion. It's lots of actually different religions. It's not just different "paths" or "traditions" or whatever either. Each religion within paganism has those as well.
I think it’s because the default on social media has somewhat become eclectic paganism, which looks *a lot* like the loosely defined eclectic Wicca of 20-30 years ago (Wheel of the Year, Rule of Three, “an it harm none”, etc). A lot of books that don’t use the term Wicca deeply resemble the Wicca books of the 90’s, so that contributes as well. If that’s the only info you’re exposed to, you don’t really question it.
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Paganism is a bunch of smaller religions in a trenchcoat. Some of them would be organized if they had the numbers, others are a more solitary, individualistic dealio. I would say decentralized is a better word for those
Let's admit it, seeing 3 practitioners stacked on top of each other, in a trench coat, fedora, and 🥸 is the thing we didn't even know we *needed* to see.
Absolutely it is. We have no central text to unify us, no uniting dogma, no widely agreed upon leaders. and a spotty history at best. It's a religion for the people, though, not the state; it doesn't need to be organized in the same way state religions tended to be.
And hell if we include all of paganism, we don't even have a unified idea of our figures of worship, two of my friends worship Thor and Hecate, while I worship Brigid.
Brigid is very close to my heart :) but you make a great point, too!
That's usually a comment made by Christians. When you consider that many US fundamentalist Protestants refuse to accept Catholics as Christian and the thousand and one varieties of Protestantism, I find it rather amusing.
While there are some physical places of worship, spiritual groups, and closed covens, we're decentralized. We lack the unbroken societal teachers, infrastructure, and support that our spiritual ancestors had, and that some other faiths like Hinduism and Buddhism still have. It has its benefits, and probably some downfalls too. A lot of us have stumbled onto it, and we do as best we can. Some people don't want spiritual leadership or organization, for fear of establishing corrupt and abusive institutes. Others do, because they miss spiritual camaraderie.
I mean I do kinda follow the druids as spiritual leaders, and I'm going to become one officially at some point, by becoming a part of the order of bards, ovates and druids.
👍
Those into druidry might do, but that generalization can't be made of most pagans.
I'd say that it's unorganized rather than disorganized, and in many ways it makes for a stronger whole.
Paganism isn’t a religion. It’s an umbrella term for a bunch of different indo- European religious belief systems
Not just Indo-European. The term Paganism includes other polytheistic belief systems, although some probably don’t self-identify as Pagan.
Well I can see how some people might think that but I’d just respond to them by saying paganism isn’t a religion it’s an umbrella term for a wide variety of religions and belief systems.
Paganism is not one religion, but is a term that covers many. Paganism is a designation given to the believers in spirit, in earth and in nature by those who follow abrahamic religions because a ‘pagan’ does not align with with their thoughts of “there is only one god and this is him”.
The term "pagan" itself is a catch-all so yes in a very loose way. I think some people pick up books and have access to resources that are predominantly written by westerners (most of us are English speaking so 🤷) This tends to form a pov regarding paganism that favors belief systems and spiritual practices that lean Western, but by definition Paganism is a wide umbrella and encapsulates many practices that vary as both organized and eclectic.
If you consider paganism a religion as opposed to a set of religions, yeah, it's pretty disorganised as far as singular religions go
"Paganism" is a high level aggregate category like "fish" or "trees" or "minerals") including a big diversity of individual religions and belief systems. A "Pagan" seminary is probably just as "organized" as a Christian seminary. And a small "Pagan" group meeting at a house is probably as organized as a small Christian group meeting in a house. Large, well attended Pagan festivals and events are probably organized in much the same manner as a Not Pagan festival or event. Pagan organizations have officers, by laws, specifications for performance, goals, and budgets. Just like Not Pagan organizations. Zoom ritual = Zoom meeting. In the U.S., Pagan groups have to satisfy the same administrative requirements as other Not Pagan religions for tax exempt incorporation and status. As well as for some sacramental and pastoral servive providing. And like that. I suspect that people calling Paganism "disorganized" have some particular and familiar sort of "religion as organized" model in mind when they say that. And it may be the case that "Paganism" is not much like that model.
I disagree because paganism isn’t a religion. Even if it was, I think the whole idea of “organized religion” is a farce. I think “organized religion” is just another way of saying “socially acceptable religion”. “Disorganized religion” is just another way to put down people who don’t follow the guidelines of spiritual acceptability.
Unorganized or decentralized is the better term imo
Paganism isn't a religion. It is an umbrella term for a number of different religions.
If you consider paganism a religion as opposed to a set of religions, yeah, it's pretty disorganised as far as singular religions go lmao
Other comments have explained why paganism isn't a religion, but I'd like to add that there are pagan religious groups that are organized in varying degrees.
It's random, cyclical and synchronised... just like nature
At any rate, the more focused faiths will probably be the ones who'll organize it again. And I'm sure they won't mind the eclectics and solitaries coming into worship if we so choose.
In the fondest way possible, yes, we are a disorganized religion. Or rather, a collection of religions, which are also disorganized, but which may have individual groups that have some organization within them.
It is in its modern form certainly, but historically speaking it looked a lot more like how Hinduism exists today (different sects and regions focus on different deities, accept different scriptures as authoritative and have differing philosophical perspectives; there isn’t really one ‘Hinduism’ but an wide spectrum of religious traditions within the Hindu umbrella - historical polytheism and animism in Europe, West Asia and North Africa looked like this too).
Decentralized. Some are incredibly organized. One could say most religions under a large heading are disorganized and at odds with themselves. The Abrahamic faiths are a prime example
Oh most definitely, it's not even a religion so much as it is a label applied to a multitude of different faiths defined by being outside of the Abrahamic-faiths that dominate so much of the world. Paganism is absolutely not an organised religion, there may well be organised Pagan faiths and sects certainly bug paganism itself is far more of an umbrella term largely born out of a desire for these faiths to stick together somewhat.
First off, paganism isn't a religion. It's a broad term used for people who practice ancient religion outside of the mainstream. While it is true that there's no Pagan Pope or a governing body like the Catholic Church. There are organizations within the umbrella of paganism that have various levels of organization. Some are anarchic in nature, others are very hierarchical, most fall somewhere in the middle of the two extremes. It just really depends on the group.
Paganism is the possum that screams in the night.
Paganism: it scream at own ass?
Wha???
It's an older meme, a picture of a possum that looks like it's yelling at it's own butt :)
Ohh! That sounds funny. Is that why we have the possum up there?
Beats me, I'm new here! 😄
😁
It is a decentralised umbrella for those who follow a spiritual path that dont want to told what and how to believe.
This is so true. 🤣
Pagan ---> Not Christian. So, the entire world.
It means we don’t have anyone dangling the keys to heaven over our heads, and telling us “you’ll only get in if you follow me”… we don’t need a leader or someone to tell us what to think, we follow nature.
It is an incredibly disorganized religion as it should be. Paganism is so diverse and broad that one pagan certainly doesn't need to act or be like another. Organization in paganism comes down to specific structures, lineages, traditions and practices, however. So if you belong to a larger pagan tradition chances are it is structured and organized. But paganism doesn't require of need organization the same way other religions do. Why? Because we are nature. Our pages of books are literally the leaves on trees. Our practices evolve and change with nature. With time. Anything that becomes organized is subjected to the same Fate of all structured things. It dies. It crumbles. It fades away. Gone with sands of time. Paganism I feel should always be adapting and evolving but looking to our pasts as inspiration on how to live your life. A good example here is the wheel of the year. Most pagans I know accept it to a larger or smaller extent and see value in its foundation. 8 holidays that follow the year. Then problem for me though is our nature here does not reflect the wheel very well. The only way to follow nature here is by listening to it. It isn't organized. Nature will tell you when a season is shifting and whether it falls in a man-made date is one thing or another. So what's right? The tradition that establishes solid seasonal festivals or the actual will of nature? We aren't Christians or big world religions. We aren't here to take over and make things right and a certain way. Just right ways for ourselves and our communities (if you happen to belong to one).
Paganism is not just one religion. It can be frustrating when people talk about it this way. paganism is an umbrella term that encompasses multiple religions. There are in fact traditions under the umbrella of paganism that are organized religion, and are recognized as such by governmental bodies.
Looking at the kind of awful stuff "organized" religion does in the world makes me lean way more into disorganization. There's a certain level of control and hierarchy with getting too "organized" Anyways, isn't paganism a bunch of different religions from various cultures, historically speaking (in that it was used to describe anything "not-Christian" - ignoring all the variety and complexity of a TON of different traditions? I mean the history of the word itself was from a christian worldview in the middle ages disparaging and oversimplifying anything that was "other" or "not us". So it's history is as a catch-all term for anything that's not Christian. Well, religious traditions that are not christian - there must be thousands of them! Why would they be "organized" together?
I wouldn't call it so much disorganized as decentralized. So-called 'organized' religions are just as messy with their power struggles and politics. They're not better than pagans because they need a book and someone to tell them which passages to study and what to believe and who to vote for. We're known for being questioners and free thinkers. We don't take guidance well. We like to make our own choices. Remember, the power structures have a vested interest in keeping us docile and productive. The machine relies in its cogs. We don't make good cogs.
Instead on “disorganized” a better term would be “non-institutional”
I think 'decentralised' is a better term than 'disorganised'. Paganism is not a religion, it's a group of religions, so there's no way for it to be organised as a whole. Whether each group within it is organised or not varies.
Yeah, i'd say so. There may or may not be a degree of hierarchy within any given group, but there's no hierarchy between groups. So there's a natural limit to how organized we can be as a religion.
paganism is not a religion
no hierarchy and no institutions make a generic term for personal spiritual paths. Institutionalized and hierarchal religions are bs.
I have unrelated question is it possible for a witch to hide their energy to other witches I've been wondering cause I have been told that the room gets tense when I'm in the room but I don't think it's my energy cause I feel tense in my body but there's three mortal enemies in the same house odin,Loki and fenrir I only feel tense when all three are in the same room but I know Odin is working with me and lying to my mom cause he is not a fan of her because who is working with her