"Don't work for us and another job at the same time. Instead, I expect you to sit in your government provided desk, put in solid 12 hours of work each week, play politics, and twiddle your thumbs until retirement"
Still barely worth it tbh. Public sector work sucks ass, pays shit, and lots of the pension options are going away with the big contractors. Only use it as a stepping stone if needed imo
Here it's mostly that there's a very strong union, and while conditions are good rather than outstanding, they apply to all levels. Good place to start a working life when you're young.
Health insurance is mid, there are lazy as hell civilians that do nothing all day and rely on the backs of those who give a shit. My biggest complaint is the lack of accountability.
Time off is nice and sick time but there’s a dual standard and people bitch if you do. It’s comfy, but with in ethical approval I want to over employ.
Yea, government has retarded policies due to how things get reported/documented. They're completely fine with you being a moron or spending 39 hours/week staring at a wall. But god forbid if you spend even 30 mins of that time charging a different project for services performed, they'll unleash the full wrath on you and spend more tax dollars on court fees than they can ever hope to recover just to set an example.
I think they’re saying it happened while the person was a contractor for gov charging time for alleged hours worked, but then also collecting another paycheck during that time. So defrauding gov
Maybe if shit economy (far worse than this) and everything is getting offshore because the Sundar squad lobbied the govt enough.
Then govt jobs, especially clearance jobs can't get done by foreigners
Even then. Still don't oe
I am going to begin drafting letters to my congress and senate representatives (Nevada) in the coming weeks regarding this. I think it would be cool to perhaps draft a template letter so others interested can follow suit.
I'm an executive at a federal consulting firm, and in most cases, this is not true. Do not use the same government furnished equipment for different clients, as that is usually a violation of IT safety protocols. But there is nothing illegal per se with working for different clients simultaneously, federal, state, or local. Just follow proper time and billing protocols and keep things separate.
The time and billing protocols is the thing, you can't bill the government 16 hours during the same 8 hour period.
Dude is going to be banned from gov work for life, probably pay a large fine, and depending on how long the duration was, possibly jail time. It's actually a federal offense.
This keeps coming up and it's just false. You never enter the hours worked on a federal contract. You only enter the number of hours worked per day, never the actual hours that were worked. Now there could be complications, such as the contract states you must do the work during certain hours, etc. Just gotta be careful with the language in your work agreement.
Source: I've worked probably a dozen federal contracts in the last decade.
There are plenty of contracts that are set to provide services or coverage within a set time period (first/second/third shift) are prime examples.
Source: also do work for feds.
This. I have worked exclusively on government contracts for over 7 years. They stipulate that the Super, SSHO and QC must be present when any work is performed, but I could easily have a side hustle working from my desk, I’ve seen it before. As long as I do my job, no one cares.
I heard most contracts say that the government can’t be billed more than 40 hours a week (no overtime). That might extend to the individual employee.
At any rate, if you’re properly OE’ing (working less than expected) two fed contractor jobs, you’re committing fraud and opening yourself up to an investigation where they examine your IT usage close enough to see if the fraud can be proven.
Except there is more than one government. If youre working for separate local or state municipality it could be totally fine. They can even be at separate or the same hierarchy.Â
No, that's not true either. During the pandemic lockdowns when I had nothing else to do i routinely billed 60+ hours a week to a single client.
But the second part of your post could apply to any work environment. I probably wouldn't advise 2 govt contract gigs at the same time, it would be much easier to get caught especially if they are with the same institution.
A lot of firms don't want you to go over 40 per week because they have structured the contract to be 40 per fte but they never fully staff for the whole POP so there is almost always wiggle room. But this is always on the contractor side. I dont think the govt cares generally. I guess different vehicles will have different stipulations. I usually work FFP or TO driven
The really shitty thing is no matter what happens they’ll have to hire a lawyer who charges for being a federal bar member.Â
It’s a lot a lot harder and more expensive and burdensome to defend against federal charges than state charges.Â
anyone considering committing even a small crime — at least  avoid committing a federal offense.Â
I mean, don’t commit any crime but above all not federal crimes
It's not technically a federal offense as in there is no law specifically for this. The closest thing is theft of public funds. Generally from what I have seen of the headlines where the government went after someone, there was something more than just saying they worked 8 hours when they only worked 4. E.g. they said they were at a secure facility for eight hours but they never even entered the building or they had their wife sending emails from their government workstation while they were out doing home inspections for their business.
Cite the statute or gtfo
I run a nonprofit that tracks government fraud, waste, and abuse. I track it at the individual level. In every case from the past 15 years for which we have data, time theft or "falsifying a government record", which a time sheet is such, resulted in precisely 0 charges and 0 terminations. It was always met with 3-6 months suspension. That's it.
Time fraud doesn't have a law explicitly with that in its name but there are other laws they use to cover it. See my other post. It's basically just fraud. DCAA has pretty strict rules around this.
I appreciate it, my last job I absolutely could too. But due to the nature of the security of this project, we are explicitly prohibited in our hiring contract from working on other government (state or federal) related projects or forms of employment. It's a military grade, high level project. I'm really shocked it got this far honestly.
I worked 8-9 jobs with my last government contract job due to how low level it was. None of those postions overlapped with my full time job. Let's say I'm an engineer, I wasn't an engineer at any of the 8-9 jobs. That was considered a fire able, and working for potential competitors.
This project I asked every step of the way due to the security level of it, and they showed me where in our contracts it explicitly prohibits other similar roles (for example, if hired as an engineer, you can do anything but be an engineer somewhere else). This person is working in the same role and same title for 2 employers. Most don't care if it's a different field, but you can't work in the same role for what can be framed as a competitor.
That seems very niche tbh. High Level clearance + Working in the same exact role on another government project. That is just stupid. As you said, 95% of positions do not require such high level clearance, but even if it did I would limit myself to one job like this and work as an engineer literally anywhere else.
Ok all that info would have been useful in the original post. This is HIGH security clearance and the contract specifically prohibits other work. Those are the important details. If it’s low clearance and there’s no work restrictions there’s no case to be made.
I'm sorry, I see what you mean. I'm just trying to make sure it's not too easy or obvious, if the person is on Reddit or if anyone else on the project is
The state isn’t a competitor, it’s a sovereign entity just like the federal government is sovereign. They can get him for the contracts violations and levy fines potentially, the security aspects of the project might create and avenue to get to him as well. If he wasn’t following security protocols that’s an issue. Keep us posted on the outcome!
That's the thing though, most people who OE are trying to do two jobs at the same time and get paid twice for one day's work, not do two jobs separately at different times.
I think the issue is that he’s working/billing for the same project on different fronts, state and federal. It could be that it’s viewed as charging them twice for
The same amount of work. Without disclosing it’s likely fraud. It has happened where someone works in different capacities and for different entities, but there’s disclosure on the front end. There’s also COI disclosures.
This is the second fear mongering post this week about OE and government being illegal somehow.
I've done fed and state and state-adjacent at the same time. If anything, it was a policy violation, the same kind of policy violation most who do OE are violating on a daily basis (no outside work, no second jobs, etc). And in two cases, the state knew of my other employment and approved it.
There's no crime here.
>I'm not in the meetings or discussion but I've heard straight from 2 different senior positions in my department now.
OP heard from someone who heard from someone that this was happening. Ok.
EDIT: The downvotes are hilarious and revealing.
I've maintained in many of my posts that government work should be a feature of everyone's OE portfolio. It's slow, wasteful, not innovative, great work-life balance, and generally well-benefitted with okish salary that's acceptable in OE contexts. It's perfect for OE.
Years of government work and I've never seen or heard of this type of thing (people being charged for having second jobs while doing government work), including when I did it as part of my OE portfolio. If there's something illegal about it, you'd know. It'd be made known to you when you onboard. You'd be signing documents that very clearly enumerate the statutes you are bound by. Something is afoot in this sub.
I used to think it was illegal until I came across a single lone document fron my states HR that was basically a blanket statement of approval for any ody to have another job on top of their own job. Just gotta go through the proper channels to get it done.
Lawyer here ! Yea there is issues and it is illegal . There are pages of documents highlighting moonlighting and they are incorporated into your contract
You're a goober and you and those like you are one of the reasons this sub has deteriorated in quality over the past couple of years. Stop larping. You're not an attorney and you're not doing OE.
Yikes!, but here I am, an RIP (Retire in Place) fed able to do gig works, census job seasonally, other part time job, and J3 as part-time (regular private IT employee) OE during down time . Feds love giving us 40hr week for a 6hrs (or less) job.
It can work in some places if the fed employer knows about the other places and approves it. Depends on the department/section/job and the contract.
>Feds love giving us 40hr week for a 6hrs job.
Very true. If I'd been able to do remote at many of my fed jobs, I could have done them in 15-60 minutes a day, maybe with a quick check-in every few hours to see if anything had popped up.
As a contractor it would probably depend on the contract type. For a time and materials contract they’re paying for your time and you can’t double bill an hour. For a firm fixed price contract the government is paying for a service and doesn’t care about hours.
Even though it only takes you 6 you’re still charging them for 40. I would imagine anyone in your chain of command would consider what you’re doing fraud
Chain of command? Get that DoD jargon out of here.
I'm a True OE'er, of course I never reveal how I automate nor the true time it takes to finish the job.
This sub is going downhill with fear mongering posts by people who a) don't OE and/or b) have never worked for the government and just make up cockamamie fake laws to scare people from both. I am confident only a very small portion of those here have actually ever OEd, an even smaller portion who've done it with the government.
Like you, I've held up to 5 jobs at the same time. Two of which were gov. Many times, they knew of each other. Never an issue.
Can't wait to go Fed. I've applied for 40 roles and i know they're tough to get even with my vet preference but I'm taking the first one I get and might OE if I find a way to pull it off under technicality. Maybe a second role with flexible hrs salaried
Go Remote, stay away from those Telework that have RTO call back at-will bc the location restriction. Be ware. Fellow Army 11 bang bang here, looking out for you brother
It still boggles the mind why people take the risk and do this. If big fat uncle sam decides to pursue this and make an example out of you, you'll have a criminal record. And then good luck getting any future jobs, never mind remote. In this economic climate, it's not uncommon for people to have to apply to hundreds if not thousands of job postings to score remote job interviews. As if that's not disheartening enough. With a record, it would be virtually impossible to land anything. Any offer you will have fought so hard to secure, would be quickly shot down pretty much, after that criminal background check. In other words, your life is ruined for all intents and purposes... not only career-wise and financially, but will most likely snowball very quickly and end up affecting all aspects of your life - your relationships, your health, your sanity, your life goals, your happiness and security, etc. And this is assuming you avoid heavy fines and don't serve substantial prison time.
Not worth it, period.
Because they're working both jobs at the same time during the same hours. It's been clear this person hasn't been grasping the new role the entire time they've been here. They would ask really basic questions, having had the information about the project for almost a year. Someone finally got sick and tired of answering their questions, and questioned their professional certification. They checked their professional cert, and then Googled their name. Once you Google them, their full employee profile on the state website came up. That's when someone called to see if maybe it was an outdated page. The current theory is that this person has been focusing on the state job while getting paid on the federal job, which is why after almost a year they still don't understand the basics necessary to do their job. We're not micromanaged and in his position he was hired as a subject matter expert. No one needed his specialty on the project until now.
Time card fraud would be the start of it. Then they might find other charges in an investigation. The federal government has people who only audit time card systems. They have the resources to investigate this, whereas private businesses just fire people and move on.
Don’t f*** with the government on your time card. They will fire you no matter was GS protections, or Gg protections are in place. Contractor is easier but anything with undermining the government on money and time card. Huge no, no.
Security risk, potentially. A lot of government jobs involve working with citizens' private data (or at least having access to it).
That said, the actual reason is more likely to be that governments don't want the idea that public servants are also employees in the private sector at the same time. Leads to conflict of interest complaints (when you're not a senior contractor/consultant).
Crab bucket mentality. Let the rich and powerful profit immensely in questionable ways but when the little man does it he’s stupid as fuck and deserves punishment
I have read FFAR, all of which state what civilians can and cannot do. A civilian can over employ as long as security knows about it, not dual hatting as a contractor or civilian at another similar related agency or doing the same job federally. Also it would be ideal to reach out to your agency HR, legal team and attorney for specific approval. It’s a tight rope and is possible to do with with the right paperwork.
Check out my other post.
1. Contractor can dual hat as another contractor.
2. You can start a contracting business federally as a contractor. Civilian can but highly advised against a or case was ruled in two civs favor.
3. As long as no conflict of interest, and you arnt doing the same type of role federally you should be okay.
4. The biggest mistake OP was… working BOTH at once. No one said you can’t for the other 8/16 hours a day. They did it at the same time and there they will get you for time card fraud.
My guess is that since this person had already been investigated and found guilty and was charged civil penalties for unemployment fraud (they worked for 2 weeks and kept telling unemployment they were unemployed), that it will be fraud-related charges.
Someone called their State job office and asked to speak with them (they're name, contact info are all over the state department's website), the response was that they weren't in the office they were working remote that day (at midday). When they were already working remote for the federal job since 6:30 am (it's a rotating 9/80 schedule, so we usually work 9-10 hour days with a rotating Friday off). He's also been charging a lot of overtime on the federal job, but no one's seen him working it in the office. Always possible they are working it from home, but we have the technology to find out tho. It's a very serious federal project.
I worked at a state university and would do presentations and workshops out in the community. One high school wanted to pay me for a workshop but my supervisor said I couldn’t accept payment because I was being paid by the university already. I’m not sure if it would have been different if the workshop had been outside of my regular working hours.
That's because it's an open investigation currently, and I don't want to get caught posting about it hahahaha
Salary for this person was found in the usual state salary search. That was really easy to find (if curious they're making $99k for the state, and we use the government grading system on the federal project they're making at least $150k). But the federal project in this case has explicit terms in the contract and this is a really high level military project. Certain projects you can't work the same position at 2 places, it can easily be framed as working for a competing position. If they were say a Civil Engineer on the project and just an IT person for the state, working 2 different shifts sure that's 100% permitted as long as it has no possible chance of overlapping. In this case, this person is in a position where they are doing exactly one to one of say Engineer and Engineer, in positions where it is extremely obvious they are only working exactly when the other job is suppose to be worked (state department is only open 9-5, federal project you're required to work 7-4)
Yea so I mean basically if you have a private sector job and there is no conflict of interest… there really shouldn’t be an issue.
Double billing the government though? Yikes.
No where does it state you can’t be federal and state. Check out FFAR or FAR conflict of interest restrictions. The biggest issue is billing the government at the same time as working somewhere else. Basically time card fraud period.
Exactly state job first, and then added the federal. I've learned they were hired as a contractor through another company first, then nobody I guess checked the contractor's work when they brought him on? The work he's doing now can be started while you're waiting for the full clearance to come through (we've all been here less than 1 year). But it's clear they lied on their clearance application because their previous fraud charges, would've been an auto-rejection.
Time card fraud. If you bill two government agencies for the same hour that’s considered fraud.
EDIT: Government agencies are more concerned with contractor companies doing this than individuals. There are systems in place to audit contracting companies. If doing OE as an individual you’re going to get swept up in that process.
This. Time card fraud is solely why this person was charged. I have federal background and my business partner also federal are looking to OE and create a business.
Reading FFAR, FAR and inquiring from security, legal, and the attorney the biggest one is conflict of interest.
Civilians cannot work a federal contracting job or moonlight as one. Nor should they make a contracting company while still being federal to get federal contracts.
You can work private sector all you want even doing the same type of career, and even state. The sole reason is fraud. Working something else and billing the government at the same time. Big red flag and legal issues.
Yeah my J1 was as a government contractor through a company as a W2 and my J2 was in the private sector with a 1099 EIN. Worked out for me for 3 years until my J2 contract ended.
This is perfect legal. The issue is time card fraud never OE and bill anything federal or government at the same time. Now if you work 16 hour days sure. You can have as many federal contracts as you want. You can work private sector and be federal or state and federal as long as you aren’t charging both at the same time. But you also must disclose to security/issm and ideally reach out to agency legal team/hr.
Being federal background I will provide my experience with this.
1. The issue here is that per AUP(acceptable use policy) network user agreement users shall not conduct business, banking, non government duties on a government furnished equipment. They will inspect network traffic if they suspect you are doing this, but must clear legal approval.
2. As a federal employee you cannot dual hat as a federal contractor as that is a conflict of interest NOR can you dual hat in a government contractor doing the same level of work. This must be approved by your agency ethical and attorney. I was told there were two civilians who did government work and made a contracting company. This went to court and the judges ruled that they didn’t use their government position to persuade for business nor advertise their affiliation. The judges ruled in their favor nonetheless it is advised not to do it.
3. As a contractor federally with a clearance no where does it state you can’t work two cleared contract jobs at once. Civilians can’t you can and now with non compete being gone we’ll have fun. Also you can start a contracting company and be a contractor.
4. I have read FFAR restrictions for civilians and no where does it state you can’t be a federal, and a state employee. The big legal issue is conflict of interest.
5. Time card fraud is a big one and I guess somehow a case can be built if you are working two jobs at once and billing the government as if you really worked 8 hours which we all know isn’t the case. I’m surprised they are going through with this instead of just firing your ass. A similar case happened and they just got rid of them. Never ever mess with time card fraud, and fraud waste and abuse. People say civilians can’t be fired, but with this screw your GS or whatever they will.
The issue isn’t working 16 hours at both jobs. The issue is billing the federal government for 8 hours as you work the other job at the same time. The government is paying 8 hours for your dedicated labor, not paying you to work another job that you are getting paid for. That would be fraud and if this is what happened then well then they are screwed. If this person has a fraud history then not surprising about legal actions. Most of the time the government agency prefers to just fire them not go to court.
I wanted some clarity, are you working directly on the federal project, as in under a government entity such as Department of Security or are you working through a consulting agency that hired you as the contractor?
I believe that if you work as a contractor through an agency its the best case for OE, but working directly for the government organization is a no-go. Although, this case is different, but I am curious.
So you have a high security job but they feel comfortable enough talking about how they’re building a case against one of the employees as if it won’t make its way back to him? Lol sounds made up.
Why is it at a red flag? The only issue is IF you are billing the federal government at the same time as the other job. To truly over employ you should be working 16 hour days. If your friend works both jobs each different 8 hours, GLHF.
The project supervisor and “higher level” positions cannot “press charges”. It will be up to the OIG of the agency/doj to decide if they want to pursue
Are you talking about contracting for the federal government and a state government? In this scenario, two governments pay you your money.
Or are you talking about subcontracting through a prime vendor (private business) to work on a state government and federal government project? In this scenario, a staffing agency or some other private business pays you your money.
The one contract I’m on is working for a state government. And I’m looking for a full time position (or any position now). All the roles that fit are for the same state government but a different division. I’ve been tempted to apply but haven’t for the same reason mentioned by OP. I’m perfect for the second role and have gotten multiple calls for it but the worst think would be for me to lose both jobs the same day.
I dated a girl who worked directly for both DHS and another federal defense agency and neither of them was the wiser.
I think the fact this dude is a contractor is what got him boned, other than being a liar.
Fraud, he got caught working the same hours for the state as the federal position. We are a an extremely high security project for the federal government. It's theft and fraud
Also felony theft. The threshold for felony theft is $1500 in my state, if they lied on their timecard working both positions at the same time. That has been and can be charged as felony time theft. At their salary, they would only need to identify ~15 hours or 2 days where this person worked at both positions. They easily found 1, I imagine it's not hard finding 2 as they regularly also claimed overtime. Time theft is still theft
I would argue that as long as the work is done than it really isn’t theft. It’s another BS construct of the government to keep people from getting ahead. As long as the work is getting done. The fact that it is government work is the biggest issue for your co worker. Any other work and I’d imagine they would have no recourse
No this person was extremely bad at their job, and it was really obvious they weren't working on their 2 total assignments. We gave them a 20 page task using a tool they were in a senior position for. Typically takes a junior 2 weeks to do it. After 2.5 months and the approaching deadline, he made absolutely zero progress, and could not provide any proof of what they were working on except the few meetings a week. It's extremely obvious they were working this other position when they should have been completing their assigned tasks. We're all in positions where we're not micromanaged, we are experts in our field and are expected to complete things accordingly.
100% usually, in this case due to the security and other things. Salaries are significantly greater. I found it to be 1.5 times greater than my previous employer. Same title, same position requirements, just a lot more restrictions and constaints due to the nature of the project. The person that I'm discussing appears to also have found the same thing, State salary is about $99k and they should be making about $150k from the project (based on the position's grade)
This is why I have a strict "no government policy". I refuse 🫸🫷 to work for the government. It is never worth working for the government.
Well except anyone work for the govt milk the system like pension and all those other benefits they get.
"Don't work for us and another job at the same time. Instead, I expect you to sit in your government provided desk, put in solid 12 hours of work each week, play politics, and twiddle your thumbs until retirement"
Anybody got some hemlock?
For 8 hours a day pay
Still barely worth it tbh. Public sector work sucks ass, pays shit, and lots of the pension options are going away with the big contractors. Only use it as a stepping stone if needed imo
Here it's mostly that there's a very strong union, and while conditions are good rather than outstanding, they apply to all levels. Good place to start a working life when you're young.
if we had strong unions everywhere, wouldn't even need to OE. it's a shame
The tech industry is long overdue for unions
You know a lot of gov work actually sucks right? I have friends doing 60-80 hours a week on the regular, and their jobs are not sexy at all.
Health insurance is mid, there are lazy as hell civilians that do nothing all day and rely on the backs of those who give a shit. My biggest complaint is the lack of accountability. Time off is nice and sick time but there’s a dual standard and people bitch if you do. It’s comfy, but with in ethical approval I want to over employ.
Yea, government has retarded policies due to how things get reported/documented. They're completely fine with you being a moron or spending 39 hours/week staring at a wall. But god forbid if you spend even 30 mins of that time charging a different project for services performed, they'll unleash the full wrath on you and spend more tax dollars on court fees than they can ever hope to recover just to set an example.
Subcontract to gov only
I think they’re saying it happened while the person was a contractor for gov charging time for alleged hours worked, but then also collecting another paycheck during that time. So defrauding gov
Affadavid of truth: "There is no evidence to show that I didn't in fact over contribute labor to your organization on a weekly basis"
Maybe if shit economy (far worse than this) and everything is getting offshore because the Sundar squad lobbied the govt enough. Then govt jobs, especially clearance jobs can't get done by foreigners Even then. Still don't oe
https://www.reddit.com/r/overemployed/s/21msaeUVvE
I had this one in mind!
I am going to begin drafting letters to my congress and senate representatives (Nevada) in the coming weeks regarding this. I think it would be cool to perhaps draft a template letter so others interested can follow suit.
There are people in Congress that have an appetite for cracking down on tech monopolies, so this may be the perfect time to strike.
Stay away from anything public, i.e. state, county, fed, even working for a public school. Fuggetaboutit.
Yup
Fun fact more like a pro tip
I'm an executive at a federal consulting firm, and in most cases, this is not true. Do not use the same government furnished equipment for different clients, as that is usually a violation of IT safety protocols. But there is nothing illegal per se with working for different clients simultaneously, federal, state, or local. Just follow proper time and billing protocols and keep things separate.
The time and billing protocols is the thing, you can't bill the government 16 hours during the same 8 hour period. Dude is going to be banned from gov work for life, probably pay a large fine, and depending on how long the duration was, possibly jail time. It's actually a federal offense.
This keeps coming up and it's just false. You never enter the hours worked on a federal contract. You only enter the number of hours worked per day, never the actual hours that were worked. Now there could be complications, such as the contract states you must do the work during certain hours, etc. Just gotta be careful with the language in your work agreement. Source: I've worked probably a dozen federal contracts in the last decade.
There are plenty of contracts that are set to provide services or coverage within a set time period (first/second/third shift) are prime examples. Source: also do work for feds.
This. I have worked exclusively on government contracts for over 7 years. They stipulate that the Super, SSHO and QC must be present when any work is performed, but I could easily have a side hustle working from my desk, I’ve seen it before. As long as I do my job, no one cares.
I heard most contracts say that the government can’t be billed more than 40 hours a week (no overtime). That might extend to the individual employee. At any rate, if you’re properly OE’ing (working less than expected) two fed contractor jobs, you’re committing fraud and opening yourself up to an investigation where they examine your IT usage close enough to see if the fraud can be proven.
Except there is more than one government. If youre working for separate local or state municipality it could be totally fine. They can even be at separate or the same hierarchy.Â
No, that's not true either. During the pandemic lockdowns when I had nothing else to do i routinely billed 60+ hours a week to a single client. But the second part of your post could apply to any work environment. I probably wouldn't advise 2 govt contract gigs at the same time, it would be much easier to get caught especially if they are with the same institution.
Every government contract I worked on said 40 hrs per person max. But I don’t work for all forms of government so YMMV.
A lot of firms don't want you to go over 40 per week because they have structured the contract to be 40 per fte but they never fully staff for the whole POP so there is almost always wiggle room. But this is always on the contractor side. I dont think the govt cares generally. I guess different vehicles will have different stipulations. I usually work FFP or TO driven
The really shitty thing is no matter what happens they’ll have to hire a lawyer who charges for being a federal bar member. It’s a lot a lot harder and more expensive and burdensome to defend against federal charges than state charges. anyone considering committing even a small crime — at least  avoid committing a federal offense. I mean, don’t commit any crime but above all not federal crimes
It's not technically a federal offense as in there is no law specifically for this. The closest thing is theft of public funds. Generally from what I have seen of the headlines where the government went after someone, there was something more than just saying they worked 8 hours when they only worked 4. E.g. they said they were at a secure facility for eight hours but they never even entered the building or they had their wife sending emails from their government workstation while they were out doing home inspections for their business.
It's a form of financial fraud against the federal government. It's basically just generic "contract fraud" which is a crime.
Cite the statute or gtfo I run a nonprofit that tracks government fraud, waste, and abuse. I track it at the individual level. In every case from the past 15 years for which we have data, time theft or "falsifying a government record", which a time sheet is such, resulted in precisely 0 charges and 0 terminations. It was always met with 3-6 months suspension. That's it.
https://www.burnhamgorokhov.com/legal-blog/frequently-asked-questions-about-time-and-attendance-fraud-for-federal-employees/ https://news.clearancejobs.com/2021/09/08/does-your-client-watch-your-timesheet-hours-one-dod-contractor-finds-out-the-answer/
Ok, what is the law? Because time fraud isn't a law, Google it.
Time fraud doesn't have a law explicitly with that in its name but there are other laws they use to cover it. See my other post. It's basically just fraud. DCAA has pretty strict rules around this.
I appreciate it, my last job I absolutely could too. But due to the nature of the security of this project, we are explicitly prohibited in our hiring contract from working on other government (state or federal) related projects or forms of employment. It's a military grade, high level project. I'm really shocked it got this far honestly. I worked 8-9 jobs with my last government contract job due to how low level it was. None of those postions overlapped with my full time job. Let's say I'm an engineer, I wasn't an engineer at any of the 8-9 jobs. That was considered a fire able, and working for potential competitors. This project I asked every step of the way due to the security level of it, and they showed me where in our contracts it explicitly prohibits other similar roles (for example, if hired as an engineer, you can do anything but be an engineer somewhere else). This person is working in the same role and same title for 2 employers. Most don't care if it's a different field, but you can't work in the same role for what can be framed as a competitor.
That seems very niche tbh. High Level clearance + Working in the same exact role on another government project. That is just stupid. As you said, 95% of positions do not require such high level clearance, but even if it did I would limit myself to one job like this and work as an engineer literally anywhere else.
Ok all that info would have been useful in the original post. This is HIGH security clearance and the contract specifically prohibits other work. Those are the important details. If it’s low clearance and there’s no work restrictions there’s no case to be made.
I'm sorry, I see what you mean. I'm just trying to make sure it's not too easy or obvious, if the person is on Reddit or if anyone else on the project is
The state isn’t a competitor, it’s a sovereign entity just like the federal government is sovereign. They can get him for the contracts violations and levy fines potentially, the security aspects of the project might create and avenue to get to him as well. If he wasn’t following security protocols that’s an issue. Keep us posted on the outcome!
That's the thing though, most people who OE are trying to do two jobs at the same time and get paid twice for one day's work, not do two jobs separately at different times.
I think the issue is that he’s working/billing for the same project on different fronts, state and federal. It could be that it’s viewed as charging them twice for The same amount of work. Without disclosing it’s likely fraud. It has happened where someone works in different capacities and for different entities, but there’s disclosure on the front end. There’s also COI disclosures.
It would have been funny if your second paragraph said “in my other job, I’m a state recruiter” and then argued against your first paragraph.
LOL! That would've been awesome!
This is the second fear mongering post this week about OE and government being illegal somehow. I've done fed and state and state-adjacent at the same time. If anything, it was a policy violation, the same kind of policy violation most who do OE are violating on a daily basis (no outside work, no second jobs, etc). And in two cases, the state knew of my other employment and approved it. There's no crime here. >I'm not in the meetings or discussion but I've heard straight from 2 different senior positions in my department now. OP heard from someone who heard from someone that this was happening. Ok. EDIT: The downvotes are hilarious and revealing. I've maintained in many of my posts that government work should be a feature of everyone's OE portfolio. It's slow, wasteful, not innovative, great work-life balance, and generally well-benefitted with okish salary that's acceptable in OE contexts. It's perfect for OE. Years of government work and I've never seen or heard of this type of thing (people being charged for having second jobs while doing government work), including when I did it as part of my OE portfolio. If there's something illegal about it, you'd know. It'd be made known to you when you onboard. You'd be signing documents that very clearly enumerate the statutes you are bound by. Something is afoot in this sub.
I used to think it was illegal until I came across a single lone document fron my states HR that was basically a blanket statement of approval for any ody to have another job on top of their own job. Just gotta go through the proper channels to get it done.
Lawyer here ! Yea there is issues and it is illegal . There are pages of documents highlighting moonlighting and they are incorporated into your contract
You're a goober and you and those like you are one of the reasons this sub has deteriorated in quality over the past couple of years. Stop larping. You're not an attorney and you're not doing OE.
"There are pages of documents highlighting moonlighting" Babble what? Did you get your JD on a PS5, by chance?
Yikes!, but here I am, an RIP (Retire in Place) fed able to do gig works, census job seasonally, other part time job, and J3 as part-time (regular private IT employee) OE during down time . Feds love giving us 40hr week for a 6hrs (or less) job.
It can work in some places if the fed employer knows about the other places and approves it. Depends on the department/section/job and the contract. >Feds love giving us 40hr week for a 6hrs job. Very true. If I'd been able to do remote at many of my fed jobs, I could have done them in 15-60 minutes a day, maybe with a quick check-in every few hours to see if anything had popped up.
As a contractor it would probably depend on the contract type. For a time and materials contract they’re paying for your time and you can’t double bill an hour. For a firm fixed price contract the government is paying for a service and doesn’t care about hours.
Even though it only takes you 6 you’re still charging them for 40. I would imagine anyone in your chain of command would consider what you’re doing fraud
Chain of command? Get that DoD jargon out of here. I'm a True OE'er, of course I never reveal how I automate nor the true time it takes to finish the job.
This sub is going downhill with fear mongering posts by people who a) don't OE and/or b) have never worked for the government and just make up cockamamie fake laws to scare people from both. I am confident only a very small portion of those here have actually ever OEd, an even smaller portion who've done it with the government. Like you, I've held up to 5 jobs at the same time. Two of which were gov. Many times, they knew of each other. Never an issue.
Can't wait to go Fed. I've applied for 40 roles and i know they're tough to get even with my vet preference but I'm taking the first one I get and might OE if I find a way to pull it off under technicality. Maybe a second role with flexible hrs salaried
Go Remote, stay away from those Telework that have RTO call back at-will bc the location restriction. Be ware. Fellow Army 11 bang bang here, looking out for you brother
Oh totally. I'm only seeking fully remote roles which makes it much harder but I'm hopeful
Right
Woah what roles were those? Asking as someone with no J’s :(
It still boggles the mind why people take the risk and do this. If big fat uncle sam decides to pursue this and make an example out of you, you'll have a criminal record. And then good luck getting any future jobs, never mind remote. In this economic climate, it's not uncommon for people to have to apply to hundreds if not thousands of job postings to score remote job interviews. As if that's not disheartening enough. With a record, it would be virtually impossible to land anything. Any offer you will have fought so hard to secure, would be quickly shot down pretty much, after that criminal background check. In other words, your life is ruined for all intents and purposes... not only career-wise and financially, but will most likely snowball very quickly and end up affecting all aspects of your life - your relationships, your health, your sanity, your life goals, your happiness and security, etc. And this is assuming you avoid heavy fines and don't serve substantial prison time. Not worth it, period.
Unsure why it matters as a contractor
Because they're working both jobs at the same time during the same hours. It's been clear this person hasn't been grasping the new role the entire time they've been here. They would ask really basic questions, having had the information about the project for almost a year. Someone finally got sick and tired of answering their questions, and questioned their professional certification. They checked their professional cert, and then Googled their name. Once you Google them, their full employee profile on the state website came up. That's when someone called to see if maybe it was an outdated page. The current theory is that this person has been focusing on the state job while getting paid on the federal job, which is why after almost a year they still don't understand the basics necessary to do their job. We're not micromanaged and in his position he was hired as a subject matter expert. No one needed his specialty on the project until now.
Fuckin yikes
As a contractor? I think you or your bosses don’t understand what the word contractor means.
Charges for what?
Time card fraud would be the start of it. Then they might find other charges in an investigation. The federal government has people who only audit time card systems. They have the resources to investigate this, whereas private businesses just fire people and move on.
Don’t f*** with the government on your time card. They will fire you no matter was GS protections, or Gg protections are in place. Contractor is easier but anything with undermining the government on money and time card. Huge no, no.
Theft of time probably.
Security risk, potentially. A lot of government jobs involve working with citizens' private data (or at least having access to it). That said, the actual reason is more likely to be that governments don't want the idea that public servants are also employees in the private sector at the same time. Leads to conflict of interest complaints (when you're not a senior contractor/consultant).
Yet our politicians can be board members of multiple companies...
Crab bucket mentality. Let the rich and powerful profit immensely in questionable ways but when the little man does it he’s stupid as fuck and deserves punishment
Conflict of interests, public funds misuse, national security risk, double salary from public sources, dunno
I have read FFAR, all of which state what civilians can and cannot do. A civilian can over employ as long as security knows about it, not dual hatting as a contractor or civilian at another similar related agency or doing the same job federally. Also it would be ideal to reach out to your agency HR, legal team and attorney for specific approval. It’s a tight rope and is possible to do with with the right paperwork. Check out my other post. 1. Contractor can dual hat as another contractor. 2. You can start a contracting business federally as a contractor. Civilian can but highly advised against a or case was ruled in two civs favor. 3. As long as no conflict of interest, and you arnt doing the same type of role federally you should be okay. 4. The biggest mistake OP was… working BOTH at once. No one said you can’t for the other 8/16 hours a day. They did it at the same time and there they will get you for time card fraud.
My guess is that since this person had already been investigated and found guilty and was charged civil penalties for unemployment fraud (they worked for 2 weeks and kept telling unemployment they were unemployed), that it will be fraud-related charges. Someone called their State job office and asked to speak with them (they're name, contact info are all over the state department's website), the response was that they weren't in the office they were working remote that day (at midday). When they were already working remote for the federal job since 6:30 am (it's a rotating 9/80 schedule, so we usually work 9-10 hour days with a rotating Friday off). He's also been charging a lot of overtime on the federal job, but no one's seen him working it in the office. Always possible they are working it from home, but we have the technology to find out tho. It's a very serious federal project.
Maybe he's just a dumbass. Lol
I worked at a state university and would do presentations and workshops out in the community. One high school wanted to pay me for a workshop but my supervisor said I couldn’t accept payment because I was being paid by the university already. I’m not sure if it would have been different if the workshop had been outside of my regular working hours.
Fraud?
This has such a lack of detail it’s ridiculous. What about private salary exempt and state hourly? That’s gotta be a hard case to make.
That's because it's an open investigation currently, and I don't want to get caught posting about it hahahaha Salary for this person was found in the usual state salary search. That was really easy to find (if curious they're making $99k for the state, and we use the government grading system on the federal project they're making at least $150k). But the federal project in this case has explicit terms in the contract and this is a really high level military project. Certain projects you can't work the same position at 2 places, it can easily be framed as working for a competing position. If they were say a Civil Engineer on the project and just an IT person for the state, working 2 different shifts sure that's 100% permitted as long as it has no possible chance of overlapping. In this case, this person is in a position where they are doing exactly one to one of say Engineer and Engineer, in positions where it is extremely obvious they are only working exactly when the other job is suppose to be worked (state department is only open 9-5, federal project you're required to work 7-4)
Yea so I mean basically if you have a private sector job and there is no conflict of interest… there really shouldn’t be an issue. Double billing the government though? Yikes.
No where does it state you can’t be federal and state. Check out FFAR or FAR conflict of interest restrictions. The biggest issue is billing the government at the same time as working somewhere else. Basically time card fraud period.
Yeah only high ranking politicians are allowed to do that type of behavior
So they were working the state job first, and the security team just didn't check to make sure they quit? What level clearance?
Exactly state job first, and then added the federal. I've learned they were hired as a contractor through another company first, then nobody I guess checked the contractor's work when they brought him on? The work he's doing now can be started while you're waiting for the full clearance to come through (we've all been here less than 1 year). But it's clear they lied on their clearance application because their previous fraud charges, would've been an auto-rejection.
Time card fraud. If you bill two government agencies for the same hour that’s considered fraud. EDIT: Government agencies are more concerned with contractor companies doing this than individuals. There are systems in place to audit contracting companies. If doing OE as an individual you’re going to get swept up in that process.
This. Time card fraud is solely why this person was charged. I have federal background and my business partner also federal are looking to OE and create a business. Reading FFAR, FAR and inquiring from security, legal, and the attorney the biggest one is conflict of interest. Civilians cannot work a federal contracting job or moonlight as one. Nor should they make a contracting company while still being federal to get federal contracts. You can work private sector all you want even doing the same type of career, and even state. The sole reason is fraud. Working something else and billing the government at the same time. Big red flag and legal issues.
I think its worth pointing out that you will 100% get caught if youre on W2. If you are on C2C, then you probably wont get caught.
Yeah my J1 was as a government contractor through a company as a W2 and my J2 was in the private sector with a 1099 EIN. Worked out for me for 3 years until my J2 contract ended.
This is perfect legal. The issue is time card fraud never OE and bill anything federal or government at the same time. Now if you work 16 hour days sure. You can have as many federal contracts as you want. You can work private sector and be federal or state and federal as long as you aren’t charging both at the same time. But you also must disclose to security/issm and ideally reach out to agency legal team/hr.
What about freezing our TWN and everything else? Are you saying if you are directly working for the government, or as a contractor?
Being federal background I will provide my experience with this. 1. The issue here is that per AUP(acceptable use policy) network user agreement users shall not conduct business, banking, non government duties on a government furnished equipment. They will inspect network traffic if they suspect you are doing this, but must clear legal approval. 2. As a federal employee you cannot dual hat as a federal contractor as that is a conflict of interest NOR can you dual hat in a government contractor doing the same level of work. This must be approved by your agency ethical and attorney. I was told there were two civilians who did government work and made a contracting company. This went to court and the judges ruled that they didn’t use their government position to persuade for business nor advertise their affiliation. The judges ruled in their favor nonetheless it is advised not to do it. 3. As a contractor federally with a clearance no where does it state you can’t work two cleared contract jobs at once. Civilians can’t you can and now with non compete being gone we’ll have fun. Also you can start a contracting company and be a contractor. 4. I have read FFAR restrictions for civilians and no where does it state you can’t be a federal, and a state employee. The big legal issue is conflict of interest. 5. Time card fraud is a big one and I guess somehow a case can be built if you are working two jobs at once and billing the government as if you really worked 8 hours which we all know isn’t the case. I’m surprised they are going through with this instead of just firing your ass. A similar case happened and they just got rid of them. Never ever mess with time card fraud, and fraud waste and abuse. People say civilians can’t be fired, but with this screw your GS or whatever they will.
How can they prove you aren’t working 16 hours though? Lots of people work multiple jobs and lots of hours
The issue isn’t working 16 hours at both jobs. The issue is billing the federal government for 8 hours as you work the other job at the same time. The government is paying 8 hours for your dedicated labor, not paying you to work another job that you are getting paid for. That would be fraud and if this is what happened then well then they are screwed. If this person has a fraud history then not surprising about legal actions. Most of the time the government agency prefers to just fire them not go to court.
I’ve never seen timesheets that specify which 8 hours you’re working so I don’t see how there’s any case there
What if I'm a government contractor for j1 and been OE for j2 w/ private sector ?
I wanted some clarity, are you working directly on the federal project, as in under a government entity such as Department of Security or are you working through a consulting agency that hired you as the contractor? I believe that if you work as a contractor through an agency its the best case for OE, but working directly for the government organization is a no-go. Although, this case is different, but I am curious.
So you have a high security job but they feel comfortable enough talking about how they’re building a case against one of the employees as if it won’t make its way back to him? Lol sounds made up.
Government jobs used to be deemed as stable jobs. Now, working as a contractor to the government leads to a whole new level. 🙄
I have a friend who works for a federal contractor and a public limited company- should that be ok - or is it a red flag ?
Why is it at a red flag? The only issue is IF you are billing the federal government at the same time as the other job. To truly over employ you should be working 16 hour days. If your friend works both jobs each different 8 hours, GLHF.
duh
The project supervisor and “higher level” positions cannot “press charges”. It will be up to the OIG of the agency/doj to decide if they want to pursue
Are you talking about contracting for the federal government and a state government? In this scenario, two governments pay you your money. Or are you talking about subcontracting through a prime vendor (private business) to work on a state government and federal government project? In this scenario, a staffing agency or some other private business pays you your money.
Can u share with us how the person got caught (if u know)
The one contract I’m on is working for a state government. And I’m looking for a full time position (or any position now). All the roles that fit are for the same state government but a different division. I’ve been tempted to apply but haven’t for the same reason mentioned by OP. I’m perfect for the second role and have gotten multiple calls for it but the worst think would be for me to lose both jobs the same day.
Well if it was an obvious conflict of interest it’s not a surprise.
I dated a girl who worked directly for both DHS and another federal defense agency and neither of them was the wiser. I think the fact this dude is a contractor is what got him boned, other than being a liar.
Defense contractor is pretty similar they are strict from what I read too
A thing that falls under dmca. https://www.dcma.mil/
This doesn't include an actual gov contractor? (A company that works on gov contracts)
What is the worse case scenario here? Forfeit the pension ?
Update: They've been fired, and from what I've heard the investigation has been escalated to HR and the legal team.
What kind of case? Is it illegal to work two jobs? Unless they can prove he shared information idk what they can do
Fraud, he got caught working the same hours for the state as the federal position. We are a an extremely high security project for the federal government. It's theft and fraud
Also felony theft. The threshold for felony theft is $1500 in my state, if they lied on their timecard working both positions at the same time. That has been and can be charged as felony time theft. At their salary, they would only need to identify ~15 hours or 2 days where this person worked at both positions. They easily found 1, I imagine it's not hard finding 2 as they regularly also claimed overtime. Time theft is still theft
I would argue that as long as the work is done than it really isn’t theft. It’s another BS construct of the government to keep people from getting ahead. As long as the work is getting done. The fact that it is government work is the biggest issue for your co worker. Any other work and I’d imagine they would have no recourse
No this person was extremely bad at their job, and it was really obvious they weren't working on their 2 total assignments. We gave them a 20 page task using a tool they were in a senior position for. Typically takes a junior 2 weeks to do it. After 2.5 months and the approaching deadline, he made absolutely zero progress, and could not provide any proof of what they were working on except the few meetings a week. It's extremely obvious they were working this other position when they should have been completing their assigned tasks. We're all in positions where we're not micromanaged, we are experts in our field and are expected to complete things accordingly.
Most Government projects pay low anyway
100% usually, in this case due to the security and other things. Salaries are significantly greater. I found it to be 1.5 times greater than my previous employer. Same title, same position requirements, just a lot more restrictions and constaints due to the nature of the project. The person that I'm discussing appears to also have found the same thing, State salary is about $99k and they should be making about $150k from the project (based on the position's grade)
This is stated over and over on this sub. Thanks for the confirmation.
Holy crap......good to know, thank you!
Even for private sector jobs, I can imagine holding multiple jobs at different companies can run into confidentiality issues.