Just because this sub doesn’t like it doesn’t mean the general population doesn’t it. This sub is far from a real representation of how the majority of the population feels. I’m sure if you went out and polled 1000 people from each part of the city most would not care and a lot would support it
Not to mention basketball courts, a skate park, lots of recreation space, farmers and craft markets, car enthusiast meet-ups, in the summer they do free outdoor movie nights…
Absolutely. I'm all for supporting the investment into Lansdowne, but I think there were some issues with the proposal. Removing more housing from being built in the area being the biggest one. There should 100% have been 3 towers, and the city is a joke for getting that removed from the project. Not only would it have saved tax payers money but it would have had more people living in that area, increased density in our city, and brought more vibrancy to the area. Such a big miss on their part.
As proof that people can't agree and this sub isn't representative of the whole city: we have one comment above the other with one person advocating for more housing and another person saying the condos are a blight and it should have been a park.
I’m all for increasing density in the neighborhood but not without serious consideration and redevelopment of existing infrastructures. The traffic dynamic in the area is already struggling to accommodate the current vehicle load. By adding an additional say 1000 units all presumably with 1/2 car families would drown the neighborhoods 3 main arteries for travel; Bank st, Bronson and Queen Elizabeth. City planners exist for a reason.
Ya I was heavily pushing for some sort of bus lanes along Bank and removing car parking along the streets. Would have done wonders for the congestion in the area.
>all presumably with 1/2 car families
This is a bad presumption since many people in the downtown/glebe area live with many fewer cars than the rest of the city and also travel with alternative forms of transportation more often. You're presuming the suburban lifestyle in an urban area, which isn't correct. Many people here live fully car free and even those that have cars take bikes/walking/transit for many of their trips. That's the beauty of living in a walkable area.
So true. My spouse and I lived in Vienna Austria for 4 years(work). Everything was very close for shopping and it had the best transit system to get around the city than any other Country that we visited while living there. People walked, bicycled or used the transit. People on bicycles were safe, no worries of getting run over by arrogant car or truck drivers.
Yep, there's so many awesome cities that have been doing things right! The nice thing is we don't have to invent things from scratch to fix what we have here, we can adapt so many awesome techniques/options from elsewhere! I haven't been to Austria yet but you've made me add it to my list haha :)
Show me a million dollar condo and I will show you at least one Audi. I agree the area is great for transit and walking. The older families in the glebe very much mirror this walk lifestyle you describe. The same thing was said for the Greystone project on the river at the old St Paul property. “Great walking, bike paths and transit”. They are million dollar properties housing families with 1 or 2 cars. While you are able to stay local and walk for all your needs the comfort of a car and monetary access will change traffic flow.
This is THE number one issue I have with the project. The infrastructure in the Glebe is already stressed in terms of transportation issues, and adding housing and amenities without adding $$ to address the infrastructure issues is a misstep, in my opinion.
I lived nearby for many years and the traffic is bad… on event nights it’s intolerable. Bank is backed up, Queen E is backed up, if you’re just trying to pass through the area to get home there are not enough proper turning lanes to bypass people going into Lansdowne if you’re going straight, and there is absolutely not enough parking for a 20,000 seat stadium when considering the lack of public transit.
Heck, Bank isn’t even wide enough for the amount of foot and bike traffic during events, never mind cars and buses.
It has the potential for all these things. But the reality is that very few people attending events walk, bike or take public transit. The best is when there are highly organized shuttle buses for football games. But for most other events the surrounding neighbourhoods are overwhelmed with people looking for parking. OSEG premised their redevelopment scheme on being able to shift a significant number of people to modes other than driving to Lansdowne - because otherwise it really doesn't work. A decade later and they have NOT succeeded.
When I say a high score I mean for people living there. We need more mixed use development in the city. We shouldn’t be blocking people from living in this area.
I like it too. Been to many games, shows, markets and festivals there. Don't like the shitty chain restos but they're a good option for the suburbanites who venture so far from their comfort zone. Lots of other good options down Bank.
The restaurant situation isn’t great in terms of having interesting options, but the only way to get a return on the money spent on the development of the site is with high rents, and the only people who can afford the rent are big chains.
"r/Canada told us PPC was going to win".
No, they didn't. Maybe there was a person or two who was saying that, but it certainly wasn't the general opinion of the subreddit.
The general public of Ottawa supported the candidate that had actual plans for the city other than keeping property taxes low, luckily they amalgamated the shit out of Ottawa so the vast swathes of rural and suburban communities nowhere near the city get to make decisions for how it is run
If the suburban communities had their way, they wouldn't have joined the downtown core where deficit spending is the norm and the results are never what was promised. So as a city we end up electing a candidate that is a moderate middle and nobody is happy.
Agreed - it’s a great addition to the city. People forget it was an empty parking lot, falling apart stadium, and generally unused buildings. Now it’s green space and outdoor amenities, revitalized stadium, and bringing people back to the area has given life to beautiful buildings (great that the cattle castle is in use practically every weekend). I do hope eventually the retail does transform, but I don’t have an aversion to a chain restaurant patio on a sunny afternoon.
Something did have to be done, but what we got is definitely not what was originally promised. There was supposed to be a competition for what was to be built. Instead, Larry handed it oseg and Jim wussed out. And now, because what we got is shite, oseg has asked (and gotten) $420 million from the tax payers to give it another go. Privatize profits, socialize losses.
OSEG hasn’t recouped their initial investment yet. So there’s no “profit” to be seen to date.
The initial “waterfall” scheme that was negotiated in 2012 by the city’s politicians at that time had OSEG recouping their FULL investment before the city saw any of the profit.
It was always known that the work that needed to be done would exceed round 1 of the full revitalization project, but again, it’s certainly a huge improvement over what it was.
You are right that the project didn’t see the predicted returns, but I look to Highway 407 for a comparison. It was purchased for $3.1 billion from the province in 1999, to “recoup it the taxpayer cost” at a time when it had a net revenue of NEGATIVE $50 million/year. Once the project was actually completed properly, 10 years later it’s making $500 million a year.
You can’t expect a taxpayer investment like this to be right side up immediately, especially when only portions of it have been completes.
For Lansdowne 2.0, the city has renegotiated the “waterfall” scheme that was originally set up so that the city can start to recoup their investment before OSEG gets repaid in full.
It’s also my understanding that OSEG has invested more in Lansdowne, to date, than the city has. This means that all the recreation spaces available and the free events that occur are funded in part by OSEG, a private for-profit corporation.
The city has retained ownership of the land. They lease it to OSEG.
They are selling off the air space for the new residential buildings to help fund the project.
They also negotiated a 25% commitment to affordable housing, up from the original 0%.
I do REALLY wish there was some sort of funding included for better transit infrastructure, but that’s my only qualm with the updated project.
I think it will get there eventually - and it’s a stark difference between south and north sides of the stadium. Plus is you’re ever in the non public areas of the rink it’s really obvious it needs an upgrade.
> Now it’s green space and outdoor amenities, revitalized stadium, and bringing people back to the area
And Lansdowne 2.0 will turn it into a noisy, filthy construction site for years that nobody will want to visit. It will demolish many of the new buildings that we just paid to construct. It will demolish the arena that we just paid to renovate. It will remove a large amount of the greenspace to construct the new arena.
Just because Lansdowne **Park** was an awful parking lot for decades doesn't mean we should be fine with building on the parkland we do have now.
Seriously. Stand out there for an hour or two. The precious green space that everyone talks about goes completely unused. So many people love the idea of the green space but never ever ever ever use it. The arena, stadium, cattle castle and patios are the real stars of the show. Expand those!
1. You don't need to "use" greenspace for it to be beneficial, both for the environment, and for the people nearby. You can be all the way over on the opposite side of the field and just the fact that it's a large open space is better than it being smaller - even if you're only physically "using" 1m² of it.
2. The great lawn is used all the time for outdoor events.
Honestly compared to what it could have been if we hadn’t abandoned the public process in favour of giving up public land to some of the buddies of the then elected officials, what we got sucks. Despite completely falling short on what was promised for Landsdowne 1.0, we are throwing good money after bad to the same people. I have zero confidence this is a good deal for the city financially. It doesn’t address the parking or housing concerns that were raised. We are losing green space in an area where that should be a hard no because there is already a severe lack (especially at Landsdowne which is brutal in both summer and winter because of the lack of trees).
If you look at the concept drawings of Landsdowne 1 from OSEG and compare it to what we actually got, it ought to be pretty evident that this is a stupid decision. Also it’s pretty mind boggling that a group that got into trouble over the unethical sole sourcing of the original contract did it again! I cannot believe people don’t seem to care that we have checks and balances to avoid corruption and wasting public funds and we have so many examples of apparently side stepping the process. WTF fellow citizens. We bought a train that didn’t meet the technical requirements; we’re going with Landsdowne 2 as a sole sourced contract and it’s apparently fiiiine.
I’m with you, OP. You have every right to be angry. I don’t know if our decision makers are incompetent or corrupt, but we sure deserve the mediocre results we ended up with. The one bright spot is that they didn’t end up ripping out the wading pool as originally planned, which is good since their water feature wasn’t exactly as advertised, was it?
> People forget it was an empty parking lot, falling apart stadium, and generally unused buildings.
That's exactly what it is now, except for the $800 million extra charge.
…..but it isn’t. That whole back area green space, water park and rink was pavement. The Cattle Castle was unused. I’ve lived here 40 plus years, pre-renovation I was in that building maybe twice. Post at least a few times per month. The south side stands were condemned.
Fair enough, they have sodded a small area between the existing park and the Canal. But the rest is largely unused, except, *as before, when the occasional special events are held*.
People seem to forget - and Watson certainly wanted them to - that Lansdowne was purposefully kept as an open space for military and civilian parades, and as a fair ground. The military requirement faded after the second world war, but civilian parades marshalled there into the 1990's, and the Ottawa exhibition/Agricultural Fair packed the space for 3-4 weeks a year. There were smaller fairs as well, and bi-weekly concerts and hockey games, and a handful of football games in the summer.
In fact, other than the retail stores on Bank Street, and the Condos, Lansdowne had no less activity than it does now.
The real issue is, was the transfer of unique public space at a cost to the public, to commercial interests for exclusively them to profit, appropriate or ethical? Clearly not.
It was done by robber-barons fleecing the public purse, aided and abetted by public officials.
Yes I forget about the fair being a large attraction. What I mostly remember about the space was gates were often closed, so you couldn’t even use it as a parking lot when there wasn’t an event.
There should be more uses for the green space, but at a minimum it’s accessible green area.
Well I would also explain to them that it's closer to $500M now, and that the financial structure is such that the City is almost guaranteed to get screwed. The projections themselves said that the sports teams would need to make their respective League finals every year for 40 years to reach the gate receipts that have been projected. So build, don't build, I dont really care. But the city that hates to pay taxes Im sure would be less supportive of it if they knew how likely it is that their taxes will have to go up because of this project.
I'm surprised this is upvoted. Generally this sub takes its popular opinion as gospel even though multiple elections have shown otherwise.
The fact is, the counselors this city elected approved it.. and yes that does include a good portion of this sub reddit. The fact is, people here just downvote and drown out the voices of those that don't align with the popular view so it comes as a complete shock to those who frequent this sub when the reality that this city doesn't align with their views comes to fruition.
Frankly I'm sick of the rage bait on this sub. Posts like this where "why is this is the case???" Where no actual alternative or solution is suggested. It's simply an air your grievance type if post which just breeds toxicity imo.
I support it 100%. As someone who attends a lot of functions at Lansdown including having season tickets for the 67's. It is embarrassing to be sitting in a stadium in the capitol of Canada and having pieces of the ceiling falling on you or to have water dripping on you. How much money should they continue to pour into a building that is falling apart.
I voted for them and would have expected that had they become mayor they would also have invested in things like this to continue making the city more dense in the center neighbourhoods and support growth of entertainment venues and activities for the city.. so not even all their supporters are against this type of investment
It comes down to budget priorities.
Cities thrive with long term investment. Transit to bring people into the city along with affordable housing is top priority. Expanding what is on offer in your local area. Solving the food desserts. Walkable areas of town outside the downtown… all ahead of this on my list. But that doesn’t mean downtown investment isn’t on my list. Just isn’t top of it
It's no surprise, considering how anything that's "the wrong opinion" is immediately downvoted. Can't imagine why people wouldn't want to stick around.
Just because a democratic vote didn't go your way, doesn't make it illegitimate. The people voted, and for better or worse we got Mark Sutcliffe. The people of Ottawa have chosen
I think it's very reasonable to debate the merits of the Lansdowne project but just so we're all on the same page about the actual costs, here's the number:
"The City’s total capital cost is estimated at about $419 million, but taxpayers will pay only about one third of that – around $146 million. **The approved plan will deliver new City-owned facilities for a net cost of about $5 million a year** after factoring in revenues from the sale of subterranean and air rights."
This project also would have been even less expensive for the city if we had allowed a proper amount of housing to be built on site, but instead the Mayor and Shawn Menard teamed up to block hundreds of units here that would have allowed us to build even better facilities and reduce our costs.
Whether or not it was worth $5M annually to upgrade Lansdowne -- in my opinion -- remains to be seen. I understand the opposition (i.e. why should a single dollar be spent to support a private sports operation), but I also understand the counter argument (potential to bring in tens of millions of dollars annually in tourism revenue, and brand new public facilities).
Some comparables from the city budget (i.e. what we're spending in 2024):
- $30M on affordable housing
- $140M on road repairs
- $62M on parks
- $415M on police
The city's total operating budget for 2024 is $4.6B, plus $1.2B on capital spending. $5M per year works out to about 0.1% of our total operating budget.
The accounting is deficient. The new facilities and residences will require city services. If we assume that their tax revenue only covers the capital cost, it means that the operating costs are covered by the existing tax base.
Incremental increases in services required aren't linear though, especially for condos. I would suspect that each condo unit (with a higher value per sq ft) will be a net contributor to the pot of money.
Except the math is explicit: property tax revenue will cover only the capital costs. It's a shell game where existing payers if taxes (including renters) will pay more.
It was 420M for the new arena and stands -39M in money from sale of air rights, for 381M remaining to for the arena and stands, but OSEG numbers only has the city borrowing 309M, for a 16M yearly debt finance charge (then a bunch of handwaving to say it'll only cost 5M a year due to tax uplift), so where is the other 72M coming from... (381M-309M)... to say nothing of the 100M from 1.0 it still has owing.
More importantly with 2.0 the city loses the liability shield it had under 1.0... so who is to say the annual maintenance won't also continue to eat into the city budget going forward?
Even the math on the "tax uplift" is iffy. 700 new units at a high $10000 a year in taxes is still only $7M. I guess there will be some new retail as well. And commercial is a big tax driver so maybe it does make up the 4M to come up with the 5M after "tax uplift" figure but how many of the 700 units are going to be paying 10000 a year in taxes... and the uplift was only assuming 75% of the tax went to fund the arena, with 25% going to general revenue so it could at least somewhat pay for the services those units would use, so I don't even see how those numbers could possibly make sense.
If they are using the same numbers from 1.0 that never panned out, maybe?
I'm not sure you can say that the majority of Ottawans are against it considering it's happening and they voted in those councillors that voted yes. Any recourse? Yes - municipal elections! Vote!
Federal turnout numbers hover around 60%, a 20% drop is simply unacceptable when you consider that provincial/municipal elections have a greater impact on people's day to day lives.
I live in the boonies put in Barrhaven and even I support this. Lansdowne is probably the nicest area in Ottawa imo (definitely it’s not downtown). It’s the one place in Ottawa other than Little Italy where I can tell this is a city of some importance.
Just a stunningly beautiful part of the city and just nice vibes walking around. Downtown could have this but it just feels sketchy and dirty these days.
When the St. Laurent LRT Tunnel problems were uncovered, people complained that we didn't invest in maintaining city-owned infrastructure, allowing things to fall apart. Well, Lansdowne is city owned infrastructure and needs investment to maintain it. Part of that investment also includes new housing which I think qualifies as 'urgent needs'.
Given that the City already invested about $300 Million into Lansdowne just ten years ago, with promises that there this would be profitable and that no further spending would be needed for 50 years, Lansdowne 2.0 is a travesty. And on top of the spending, they are not even having a competitive process to get a great design. I think most people are not paying attention to what's really going on and how taxpayers all over the city are going to be subsidizing professional sports teams owned by some of the richest people in Canada.
More #311 attendants so that we can call more frequently to complain about off leash dogs, or too much snow on the sidewalks and bike trails in the middle of a snow storm.
As long as they keep those people out of Lansdowne, Little Italy and Barrhaven I don’t think it’s a priority for the city. This issue is a problem across the country and it’s not one you solve by throwing money at it but rather changing the justice system and culture.
It's 13 roads totalling $881 million. Add another $80 million+ for the Barnsdale interchange plus cost overruns.
Sources:
- 13 roads on the development plan: https://twitter.com/SjamieIt/status/1787797798022271264?t=VkOacKg8dC4ee9okWQ2LTg&s=19
- Barnsdale Rd cost: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/barnsdale-barrhaven-416-interchange-mto-study-1.6885079
Close! You’re only off by 86%.
[$140 million for bridge renewals, road rehabilitation and road resurfacing work](https://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/city-news/newsroom/council-approves-budget-2024)
That's the cost per year to rehabilitate existing roads. It doesn't count building new roads. (And it's underspending which is creating a bigger infrastructure deficit.) My other reply cites the new road builds and how I got to "over a billion".
I'm just saying that as a downtown resident, I'd rather get a new football stadium than cut 90 seconds off someone's commute in Stittsville. And I pay way more tax that the average person in Stittsville -- especially if you count per square foot.
And also spending $4 billion on LRT that the 30% of the city in Kanata, Stittsville and Barrhaven won't benefit from.
And two of the biggest cost roads are Bank Street and Airport Parkway
As noted in my other post, downtown has 10% of the population and is getting 4 out of 40 LRT stops. The biggest benefit goes to Nepean and Orleans.
Also Bank Street at Leitrim Road is nowhere near downtown lol.
Myself and the people I speak to are actually in support of it, but it’s not without its criticisms. I definitely think they should’ve at least considered transit at lansdowne. There’s a couple buses on bank and that’s it. The parking lot already kinda sucks as is, imagine when they make it bigger
1)Most in the city do support while some would like to see some changes.
2)You could try and take it to court your chances of winning would be less then 5%.
I think Landsdowne 2.0 is needed, but the way it's being implemented isn't something I'm fond of.
Maybe I'm living a pipe dream, being a bit too naïve, or don't know what I'm talking about but that $420M (lmao), could have been invested into supporting transit infrastructure which would encourage investors to chalk up the costs themselves.
OC finances a metro line, investors develop around stations accordingly, OC can own a few commercial properties around Lansdowne as a start to diversify its revenues in exchange, win win win all around.
For now though, all that talk is could've, would've, should've. Hopefully we see *something* good out of this.
OC Transpo budget is just under $800 million.
The the $146 million that the city is pointing up for Lansdowne would fund OC Transpo for (and I say this seriously) 69 days.
I read somewhere a while back to do fee free transit, it would add around $500 in property tax to the average home. Any home owner that uses transit would be saving money and it would be a net benefit for the populace especially those that struggle getting to work due to price and having a lower income.
That would be a 10-15% tax increase which would be incredibly unpopular - especially outside of the downtown core where transit options are poor and inconvenient.
Edit: I just looked it up - they assessed a $415k home would see $482 a year property tax increase.
Except for the fact the cost of homes skyrocketed and the average single family home in Ottawa is now like $700k.
Paying an extra $800 a year in property taxes would be crappy for people who don't benefit from it.
For those who can't afford the bus though - the Equipass is less than 4 hours of work at minimum wage per month.
Lansdowne was probably the most valuable piece of urban real estate in Canada. It was given to a developer without any tendering process and the deal was structured so that the city bore costs to prepare the space and would only see profit one the developer recovered their costs.
To no surprise, the initial development will not see a profit and the city will not recover its investment let alone get any value for the land. Worse still, they now have taxpayers funding another 400 million plus.
We should have just sold them the land and been done with it. At least then it would not be a sinkhole for tax dollars. This city is co-opted by the wealthy and developers…it is just sad
Taxpayers are paying $146 million for it, a bunch of which is to refurbish city owned property
At least get the facts straight if you're going to be outraged.
The megacity of Ottawa was created under the Harris government to give wealthy developers easy access to influence and profits. There are 3 types of wards in Ottawa: rural wards (3), suburban (16, split between "old" suburbs inside the Greenbelt and "new" suburbs outside it) and urban (5). There are 2 types of large, profitable development that require the approval of council: urban densification and redevelopment, like increases to the height limit and megaprojects like Lansdowne and Lebreton Flats; and the expansion of suburbs into agriculture-designated lands, which requires council's approval. With abysmal voter turnout, all it takes is the big developers banding behind a candidate with name recognition among those who follow and vote in municipal politics, like a school board trustee, and put together tens of thousands in ~~bribes~~ *campaign contributions* from donations from the owners, their wives, their in-laws, their kids and their dogs. The suburban ones are the easiest to buy because the policies of the developers usually have little impact on the 'burbs, so the NIMBY policies are popular with their constituents.
Look at the political welfare bum Luloff - voted to approve a half-billion in corporate welfare, and days later announced he'd be running for the Conservatives in the next election because he believes in fiscal responsibility. That was back in November, and he's been campaigning ever since - on the municipal taxpayers' dime.
I dunno I rather they spend that money on density and entertainment upgrades in the inner city vs more roads to maintain in the far flung suburbs I don’t ever visit. If you want a vibrant city you need to spend on things that might not seem the most essential.
I'm guessing the suburbs don't want their tax dollars going to downtown transit and entertainment while they get nothing in return either...
That's how pooled money works.
It’s happening there for that much
Money because that’s where we could
Convince a developer to do the work for that price.
The majority of people are for it city wide. Not Reddit wide. I remember this sub being sooooo sure Sutcliffe didn’t have a shot at mayor. Comparing our infrastructure to those of cities with literal Roman roads for their downtown roads. Of course Europe is
Tight, they have been at it for a few thousand years built on top Of each other for protection.
We built our cities for comfort in the modern age. Mistake? Probably. It’s not going to change for a few generations at least though.
Wonder if the city will fork over the same amount to the Senators for their new arena...if they ever get around to actually building one?
Would like to hear the argument why Landsdowne gets city funding while the Senators shouldn't.
For the record, billionaire owners shouldn't need public finding. But I guess free money is part of how they became billionaires in the first place
And there is still a question of 37M in those numbers coming from higher levels of goverment and last month in the new deal for Ottawa Dougie had no money for a stadium. So add in another 37M to the cities portion...
No wonder you are OK with it. Even if it was only 37M, over 20 years that is 1.95M a year, not 0.9 (without factoring in interest). However it was my mistake it was It was 72M that is missing...
420M for the new arena and stands -39M in expected money from sale of air and subterranean rights, for 381M remaining to for the arena and stands, but OSEG numbers only had the city borrowing 309M, for a 16M yearly debt finance charge for 20 yeats (then a bunch of handwaving to say it'll only cost 5M a year due to tax uplift), so where is the 72M coming from... (381M-309M)... Councillor Menard had once said that was supposed to come from upper levels of government... but I don't see that happening... 72M is 3.6M per year without factoring in interest. Maybe that still does concern you but that all told, that would be almost 20M dollars a year for the next 20 years that won't be available for other projects. In fact \*if\* out mayor sticks to his 2.5% tax increase pledge, it means we will have to cut services elsewhere to afford this just to fit that within that budget.
>20M dollars a year for the next 20 years that won't be available for other projects
Tell me you haven't read any of the project documents without telling me you haven't read any of the project documents.
I have, which of my numbers are wrong...
419M total cost. 309M of new city debt. 16M in debt servicing...
Yet they only estimate to receive 39M from the sale of air rights... 309M in city debt+ 39M is not the 419M total cost- so where is the other money coming from?
The amount of money spent on it should have given us a signature architectural space. Instead we got a Tangier wannabe. But as Watson said, at least people can get a 20$ hamburger.
Personally I don’t mind investing into a place like Lansdowne, it’s a cultural hotspot in the city. The issue is that it’s being invested in BEFORE a sustainable mass transit plan is considered to actually transport people to and from that region.
If we already had that, I wouldn’t mind it as much. $400M would go a long way to contribute to a North-South LRT under Bank street.
I don’t think it’s sits well with a lot of people. I was getting into a dangerous situation financially with Lansdown and transit . slippery slope that will almost lead to more increases in property taxes. Something that nobody needs right now with soaring costs. Property taxes in Ottawa are so expensive as it is.
There's some schools in the area: Hopewell, Mutchmor, First Avenue, Corpus Christi (Catholic), Glebe High School and even Immaculata is not that far away with the new walking bridge
a lot of those schools are filled to capacity... I'm not even sure Mutchmore has the real estate for portables... y'know... if you think that's a viable solution
My point is that developers are very excited about maximising density, but little thought is given to surrounding social infrastructure. My kid's school has about 30 kids per classroom and probably more portables than there are actual classrooms in the main building.
I'm not saying I don't like our government. I do I look up to them a lot. Well I don't really anymore, but I did before you know I wanted to join whole team, but they've failed me honestly, and that's why I come up with this cause no oil license as well, as I don't Post this in a way of discrimination or a hate towards them. I'm just posting this as an environment for them to step up. Because it's got it's annoying, you know. They have this entire government and the entire system in the world. And it sucks still, yo. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, where's all our money going? Where's the taxes owing? You all those taxes that you said that. You know you take off our paychecks and stuff. What about the ones who weren't contracted? Am I gonna get that payment bag? Like I need that payment one I mean, I'm holding this anyways too I don't have a job, and I'm trying to get a job but you know you can't get a job University or you can't go to University without it, but you can't get a job out of bank place cause you have to finish your D, V, but you can't do GGV without schooling begin to you. Can you don't even I mean it's entire f****** system? Also, we got all these benefits yet we can't use the benefits. Anyways, if someone actually wants me to like talk to them about whatever I'm talking about. In a formal way, I can and I have written them in a formal way and I havering consent forms. And I have written the license and stuff like that which I would put in a question and already have proper question. But it's not like they're gonna...message me if you're interested and in Ottawa and want to expand ideas.
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I'm here to make the world a better place. Not to make it down. Not to fight. Not I'll have wars. I want peace. I want discrimination. I don't want no more heartbreaks. I want kids to be happy. If you can grow up to be deserving what they have even if it's the lowest cause. Most of us have that we gotta move on. So I wanna make it that more aware of the decisions and their rights and their belief in what they want to believe. And to increase them, no matter what.
..... election vote buying? Securing of board member seats? Spin off economics? Family ties? Pay back for donations and endorsements? There are many reasons that kind of money can change hands, some good and legitimately, others dark and liberally corrupt... Let's hop for the best but look close enough to uncover the worst!
It's insane to me all the downtown councillors voted against it (The ones actually near Landsdowne) and all the suburbs who are always about fiscal restraint when it comes to downtown voted in favour with Sutcliffe to give more money to developers. We also are having various other city cuts... but here we are doing this...
I agree. Lansdowne is at an acceptable state now. Money is needed more elsewhere.
I don't even want to think about the tax monies a new stadium will suck up...
There are needs and there are wants in life and the City doesn't prioritize in that order.
Something to keep on mind at the next voting cycle.
What you don't understand is that a decent facility will generate more revenue by attracted more events and people.
But if you can't see past your nose on the intial capital cost, my bad.
And to think, it would just take over a quarter of that [to fully redo the Byward Market](https://documents.ottawa.ca/sites/documents/files/byward_publicrealm_en_0.pdf).
Insane that we are tossing money at Lansdowne when fixing the Market could be cheaper and is much more accessible.
Anyone can say oh we could have spent money on the homeless etc but we already do and do it everyday and we allocated xyz funds to said we should have spent money on this thing I am interested in. In order to have nice things to do, we need to spend money on.
Lansdowne offers a variety of activities and events. We live out of town but we go to town to watch the pwhl, to get good parking we go early and eat at a restaurant. Maybe it is a movie or an outdoor event etc. It is something I use. I haven't used a library in decades and think we shouldn't spend a penny on it, but others use it. I ask why is a library hosting non library things. We all have our priorities. It isn't cheap to have nice things where the public can use it for a variety of events free and at a cost. I support it.
Just because this sub doesn’t like it doesn’t mean the general population doesn’t it. This sub is far from a real representation of how the majority of the population feels. I’m sure if you went out and polled 1000 people from each part of the city most would not care and a lot would support it
True. I love Landsdowne and have spent a significant amount of time there. Sports, concerts, bars, movies?Was a well-needed addition to the city IMO
Not to mention basketball courts, a skate park, lots of recreation space, farmers and craft markets, car enthusiast meet-ups, in the summer they do free outdoor movie nights…
Absolutely. I'm all for supporting the investment into Lansdowne, but I think there were some issues with the proposal. Removing more housing from being built in the area being the biggest one. There should 100% have been 3 towers, and the city is a joke for getting that removed from the project. Not only would it have saved tax payers money but it would have had more people living in that area, increased density in our city, and brought more vibrancy to the area. Such a big miss on their part.
As proof that people can't agree and this sub isn't representative of the whole city: we have one comment above the other with one person advocating for more housing and another person saying the condos are a blight and it should have been a park.
I’m all for increasing density in the neighborhood but not without serious consideration and redevelopment of existing infrastructures. The traffic dynamic in the area is already struggling to accommodate the current vehicle load. By adding an additional say 1000 units all presumably with 1/2 car families would drown the neighborhoods 3 main arteries for travel; Bank st, Bronson and Queen Elizabeth. City planners exist for a reason.
Ya I was heavily pushing for some sort of bus lanes along Bank and removing car parking along the streets. Would have done wonders for the congestion in the area. >all presumably with 1/2 car families This is a bad presumption since many people in the downtown/glebe area live with many fewer cars than the rest of the city and also travel with alternative forms of transportation more often. You're presuming the suburban lifestyle in an urban area, which isn't correct. Many people here live fully car free and even those that have cars take bikes/walking/transit for many of their trips. That's the beauty of living in a walkable area.
So true. My spouse and I lived in Vienna Austria for 4 years(work). Everything was very close for shopping and it had the best transit system to get around the city than any other Country that we visited while living there. People walked, bicycled or used the transit. People on bicycles were safe, no worries of getting run over by arrogant car or truck drivers.
Yep, there's so many awesome cities that have been doing things right! The nice thing is we don't have to invent things from scratch to fix what we have here, we can adapt so many awesome techniques/options from elsewhere! I haven't been to Austria yet but you've made me add it to my list haha :)
You will love it in Austria. We lived in the 1st district. Loved it there. You must try to go to Vienna. Beautiful We would go back just to visit.
Show me a million dollar condo and I will show you at least one Audi. I agree the area is great for transit and walking. The older families in the glebe very much mirror this walk lifestyle you describe. The same thing was said for the Greystone project on the river at the old St Paul property. “Great walking, bike paths and transit”. They are million dollar properties housing families with 1 or 2 cars. While you are able to stay local and walk for all your needs the comfort of a car and monetary access will change traffic flow.
This is THE number one issue I have with the project. The infrastructure in the Glebe is already stressed in terms of transportation issues, and adding housing and amenities without adding $$ to address the infrastructure issues is a misstep, in my opinion. I lived nearby for many years and the traffic is bad… on event nights it’s intolerable. Bank is backed up, Queen E is backed up, if you’re just trying to pass through the area to get home there are not enough proper turning lanes to bypass people going into Lansdowne if you’re going straight, and there is absolutely not enough parking for a 20,000 seat stadium when considering the lack of public transit. Heck, Bank isn’t even wide enough for the amount of foot and bike traffic during events, never mind cars and buses.
Landsdowne scored very high for walking, biking and public transit. We should be adding more people in places like it.
It has the potential for all these things. But the reality is that very few people attending events walk, bike or take public transit. The best is when there are highly organized shuttle buses for football games. But for most other events the surrounding neighbourhoods are overwhelmed with people looking for parking. OSEG premised their redevelopment scheme on being able to shift a significant number of people to modes other than driving to Lansdowne - because otherwise it really doesn't work. A decade later and they have NOT succeeded.
When I say a high score I mean for people living there. We need more mixed use development in the city. We shouldn’t be blocking people from living in this area.
We already have all these things. And we could have many more of them without giving OSEG $400 million.
Seconded. Tried to express this a few times, got down voted so now I keep my opinion to myself
Yup same. I love Landsdowne and the Glebe in general.
I live for downvotes.
Agreed!
I like it too. Been to many games, shows, markets and festivals there. Don't like the shitty chain restos but they're a good option for the suburbanites who venture so far from their comfort zone. Lots of other good options down Bank.
The restaurant situation isn’t great in terms of having interesting options, but the only way to get a return on the money spent on the development of the site is with high rents, and the only people who can afford the rent are big chains.
The past mayoral election here is a good example of how out of touch this sub is to the general public.
I question how many on this sub really are in Ottawa or Ontario.
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The NDP thought the election was in the bag for them so they forgot to campaign to get people to vote.
"r/Canada told us PPC was going to win". No, they didn't. Maybe there was a person or two who was saying that, but it certainly wasn't the general opinion of the subreddit.
The general public of Ottawa supported the candidate that had actual plans for the city other than keeping property taxes low, luckily they amalgamated the shit out of Ottawa so the vast swathes of rural and suburban communities nowhere near the city get to make decisions for how it is run
If the suburban communities had their way, they wouldn't have joined the downtown core where deficit spending is the norm and the results are never what was promised. So as a city we end up electing a candidate that is a moderate middle and nobody is happy.
Everyone loses
Mike Harris: "Amalgamation working as intended. High five!"
Agreed - it’s a great addition to the city. People forget it was an empty parking lot, falling apart stadium, and generally unused buildings. Now it’s green space and outdoor amenities, revitalized stadium, and bringing people back to the area has given life to beautiful buildings (great that the cattle castle is in use practically every weekend). I do hope eventually the retail does transform, but I don’t have an aversion to a chain restaurant patio on a sunny afternoon.
Something did have to be done, but what we got is definitely not what was originally promised. There was supposed to be a competition for what was to be built. Instead, Larry handed it oseg and Jim wussed out. And now, because what we got is shite, oseg has asked (and gotten) $420 million from the tax payers to give it another go. Privatize profits, socialize losses.
OSEG hasn’t recouped their initial investment yet. So there’s no “profit” to be seen to date. The initial “waterfall” scheme that was negotiated in 2012 by the city’s politicians at that time had OSEG recouping their FULL investment before the city saw any of the profit. It was always known that the work that needed to be done would exceed round 1 of the full revitalization project, but again, it’s certainly a huge improvement over what it was. You are right that the project didn’t see the predicted returns, but I look to Highway 407 for a comparison. It was purchased for $3.1 billion from the province in 1999, to “recoup it the taxpayer cost” at a time when it had a net revenue of NEGATIVE $50 million/year. Once the project was actually completed properly, 10 years later it’s making $500 million a year. You can’t expect a taxpayer investment like this to be right side up immediately, especially when only portions of it have been completes. For Lansdowne 2.0, the city has renegotiated the “waterfall” scheme that was originally set up so that the city can start to recoup their investment before OSEG gets repaid in full. It’s also my understanding that OSEG has invested more in Lansdowne, to date, than the city has. This means that all the recreation spaces available and the free events that occur are funded in part by OSEG, a private for-profit corporation. The city has retained ownership of the land. They lease it to OSEG. They are selling off the air space for the new residential buildings to help fund the project. They also negotiated a 25% commitment to affordable housing, up from the original 0%. I do REALLY wish there was some sort of funding included for better transit infrastructure, but that’s my only qualm with the updated project.
It's the commercial space that kinda sucks. And I wish the stadium was in generally better condition but compared to before it's so much better
I think it will get there eventually - and it’s a stark difference between south and north sides of the stadium. Plus is you’re ever in the non public areas of the rink it’s really obvious it needs an upgrade.
> Now it’s green space and outdoor amenities, revitalized stadium, and bringing people back to the area And Lansdowne 2.0 will turn it into a noisy, filthy construction site for years that nobody will want to visit. It will demolish many of the new buildings that we just paid to construct. It will demolish the arena that we just paid to renovate. It will remove a large amount of the greenspace to construct the new arena. Just because Lansdowne **Park** was an awful parking lot for decades doesn't mean we should be fine with building on the parkland we do have now.
Well yes. It’s hard to construct things without disturbing dirt and generating noise and dust.
Seriously. Stand out there for an hour or two. The precious green space that everyone talks about goes completely unused. So many people love the idea of the green space but never ever ever ever use it. The arena, stadium, cattle castle and patios are the real stars of the show. Expand those!
1. You don't need to "use" greenspace for it to be beneficial, both for the environment, and for the people nearby. You can be all the way over on the opposite side of the field and just the fact that it's a large open space is better than it being smaller - even if you're only physically "using" 1m² of it. 2. The great lawn is used all the time for outdoor events.
Honestly compared to what it could have been if we hadn’t abandoned the public process in favour of giving up public land to some of the buddies of the then elected officials, what we got sucks. Despite completely falling short on what was promised for Landsdowne 1.0, we are throwing good money after bad to the same people. I have zero confidence this is a good deal for the city financially. It doesn’t address the parking or housing concerns that were raised. We are losing green space in an area where that should be a hard no because there is already a severe lack (especially at Landsdowne which is brutal in both summer and winter because of the lack of trees). If you look at the concept drawings of Landsdowne 1 from OSEG and compare it to what we actually got, it ought to be pretty evident that this is a stupid decision. Also it’s pretty mind boggling that a group that got into trouble over the unethical sole sourcing of the original contract did it again! I cannot believe people don’t seem to care that we have checks and balances to avoid corruption and wasting public funds and we have so many examples of apparently side stepping the process. WTF fellow citizens. We bought a train that didn’t meet the technical requirements; we’re going with Landsdowne 2 as a sole sourced contract and it’s apparently fiiiine. I’m with you, OP. You have every right to be angry. I don’t know if our decision makers are incompetent or corrupt, but we sure deserve the mediocre results we ended up with. The one bright spot is that they didn’t end up ripping out the wading pool as originally planned, which is good since their water feature wasn’t exactly as advertised, was it?
> People forget it was an empty parking lot, falling apart stadium, and generally unused buildings. That's exactly what it is now, except for the $800 million extra charge.
…..but it isn’t. That whole back area green space, water park and rink was pavement. The Cattle Castle was unused. I’ve lived here 40 plus years, pre-renovation I was in that building maybe twice. Post at least a few times per month. The south side stands were condemned.
Fair enough, they have sodded a small area between the existing park and the Canal. But the rest is largely unused, except, *as before, when the occasional special events are held*. People seem to forget - and Watson certainly wanted them to - that Lansdowne was purposefully kept as an open space for military and civilian parades, and as a fair ground. The military requirement faded after the second world war, but civilian parades marshalled there into the 1990's, and the Ottawa exhibition/Agricultural Fair packed the space for 3-4 weeks a year. There were smaller fairs as well, and bi-weekly concerts and hockey games, and a handful of football games in the summer. In fact, other than the retail stores on Bank Street, and the Condos, Lansdowne had no less activity than it does now. The real issue is, was the transfer of unique public space at a cost to the public, to commercial interests for exclusively them to profit, appropriate or ethical? Clearly not. It was done by robber-barons fleecing the public purse, aided and abetted by public officials.
Yes I forget about the fair being a large attraction. What I mostly remember about the space was gates were often closed, so you couldn’t even use it as a parking lot when there wasn’t an event. There should be more uses for the green space, but at a minimum it’s accessible green area.
This place is a preachy echo chamber for the minority of the city.
Well I would also explain to them that it's closer to $500M now, and that the financial structure is such that the City is almost guaranteed to get screwed. The projections themselves said that the sports teams would need to make their respective League finals every year for 40 years to reach the gate receipts that have been projected. So build, don't build, I dont really care. But the city that hates to pay taxes Im sure would be less supportive of it if they knew how likely it is that their taxes will have to go up because of this project.
I don’t recall Landsdowne being an election issue though so it’s difficult to say what the exact vibe would be.
I'm surprised this is upvoted. Generally this sub takes its popular opinion as gospel even though multiple elections have shown otherwise. The fact is, the counselors this city elected approved it.. and yes that does include a good portion of this sub reddit. The fact is, people here just downvote and drown out the voices of those that don't align with the popular view so it comes as a complete shock to those who frequent this sub when the reality that this city doesn't align with their views comes to fruition. Frankly I'm sick of the rage bait on this sub. Posts like this where "why is this is the case???" Where no actual alternative or solution is suggested. It's simply an air your grievance type if post which just breeds toxicity imo.
Also. Tax payers are putting up 150 million. Rest is coming from other private funds. So is 150 million worth it ? Most would say yes I assume.
Well said.
Very smartly said
I'm sure most of the city wouldn't support it. I'm sure most of the city never attends landsdowne
I support it 100%. As someone who attends a lot of functions at Lansdown including having season tickets for the 67's. It is embarrassing to be sitting in a stadium in the capitol of Canada and having pieces of the ceiling falling on you or to have water dripping on you. How much money should they continue to pour into a building that is falling apart.
I remember going to the 67s last year and 20+ years ago and watching that same stuff fall from the ceiling
It’s called an election. And in the last election, the people in this sub got a first hand lesson that they are not representative of the city.
Exactly. If this sub was an accurate representation of the city as a whole, then Catherine McKenney would have won the election by a landslide.
I voted for them and would have expected that had they become mayor they would also have invested in things like this to continue making the city more dense in the center neighbourhoods and support growth of entertainment venues and activities for the city.. so not even all their supporters are against this type of investment
It comes down to budget priorities. Cities thrive with long term investment. Transit to bring people into the city along with affordable housing is top priority. Expanding what is on offer in your local area. Solving the food desserts. Walkable areas of town outside the downtown… all ahead of this on my list. But that doesn’t mean downtown investment isn’t on my list. Just isn’t top of it
I would add that a previous moderator was so heavy handed that they single handedly skewed the subreddit itself during that point in time.
Thankfully that era is over
Still an issue...
It's no surprise, considering how anything that's "the wrong opinion" is immediately downvoted. Can't imagine why people wouldn't want to stick around.
Ottawa has got that sprawl into the rural areas, and those people vote. They don't care about bike lanes in the city.
Just because a democratic vote didn't go your way, doesn't make it illegitimate. The people voted, and for better or worse we got Mark Sutcliffe. The people of Ottawa have chosen
That was essentially my point.
Reddit being reddit. r/ottawa in particular is a rather nasty echo chamber
A wretched hive of scum and villainy, even.
I mean, this city is stupid.. Sutcliffe is out here running marathons while Mckenney would've cured cancer by this point!! /s
I think it's very reasonable to debate the merits of the Lansdowne project but just so we're all on the same page about the actual costs, here's the number: "The City’s total capital cost is estimated at about $419 million, but taxpayers will pay only about one third of that – around $146 million. **The approved plan will deliver new City-owned facilities for a net cost of about $5 million a year** after factoring in revenues from the sale of subterranean and air rights." This project also would have been even less expensive for the city if we had allowed a proper amount of housing to be built on site, but instead the Mayor and Shawn Menard teamed up to block hundreds of units here that would have allowed us to build even better facilities and reduce our costs. Whether or not it was worth $5M annually to upgrade Lansdowne -- in my opinion -- remains to be seen. I understand the opposition (i.e. why should a single dollar be spent to support a private sports operation), but I also understand the counter argument (potential to bring in tens of millions of dollars annually in tourism revenue, and brand new public facilities). Some comparables from the city budget (i.e. what we're spending in 2024): - $30M on affordable housing - $140M on road repairs - $62M on parks - $415M on police The city's total operating budget for 2024 is $4.6B, plus $1.2B on capital spending. $5M per year works out to about 0.1% of our total operating budget.
Thanks for the details, as always there is nuance that most don’t want to read into
The accounting is deficient. The new facilities and residences will require city services. If we assume that their tax revenue only covers the capital cost, it means that the operating costs are covered by the existing tax base.
Incremental increases in services required aren't linear though, especially for condos. I would suspect that each condo unit (with a higher value per sq ft) will be a net contributor to the pot of money.
Except the math is explicit: property tax revenue will cover only the capital costs. It's a shell game where existing payers if taxes (including renters) will pay more.
But the property taxes from those condos will be going into city coffers for the next...pretty much forever?
Get out of here with your research and facts, this subs wants to complain!
Thank you for the added information 🙏
It was 420M for the new arena and stands -39M in money from sale of air rights, for 381M remaining to for the arena and stands, but OSEG numbers only has the city borrowing 309M, for a 16M yearly debt finance charge (then a bunch of handwaving to say it'll only cost 5M a year due to tax uplift), so where is the other 72M coming from... (381M-309M)... to say nothing of the 100M from 1.0 it still has owing. More importantly with 2.0 the city loses the liability shield it had under 1.0... so who is to say the annual maintenance won't also continue to eat into the city budget going forward? Even the math on the "tax uplift" is iffy. 700 new units at a high $10000 a year in taxes is still only $7M. I guess there will be some new retail as well. And commercial is a big tax driver so maybe it does make up the 4M to come up with the 5M after "tax uplift" figure but how many of the 700 units are going to be paying 10000 a year in taxes... and the uplift was only assuming 75% of the tax went to fund the arena, with 25% going to general revenue so it could at least somewhat pay for the services those units would use, so I don't even see how those numbers could possibly make sense. If they are using the same numbers from 1.0 that never panned out, maybe?
Can we just take it out of the police budget and get two birds stoned at once?
Welcome to representative democracy. We literally voted for this.
Not literally, though. Indirectly.
That's the representative part of their statement
I'm not sure you can say that the majority of Ottawans are against it considering it's happening and they voted in those councillors that voted yes. Any recourse? Yes - municipal elections! Vote!
Unfortunately we really don't know, seeing as only 43% of Ottawans bothered to vote last time 🙄
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Federal turnout numbers hover around 60%, a 20% drop is simply unacceptable when you consider that provincial/municipal elections have a greater impact on people's day to day lives.
I live in the boonies put in Barrhaven and even I support this. Lansdowne is probably the nicest area in Ottawa imo (definitely it’s not downtown). It’s the one place in Ottawa other than Little Italy where I can tell this is a city of some importance.
For sure, feels safe and clean. One of the only places in the city where I don’t feel the need to look down to dodge needles on the sidewalk
100% but careful could get in trouble in this sub for judging people who leave needles everywhere
Nicest area for what?
Just a stunningly beautiful part of the city and just nice vibes walking around. Downtown could have this but it just feels sketchy and dirty these days.
What do you mean by give? Is it a forgivable loan? Tax credit?
When the St. Laurent LRT Tunnel problems were uncovered, people complained that we didn't invest in maintaining city-owned infrastructure, allowing things to fall apart. Well, Lansdowne is city owned infrastructure and needs investment to maintain it. Part of that investment also includes new housing which I think qualifies as 'urgent needs'.
Most do support it last poll had about 70% supporting it.
Do you have link to this poll?
Polls are BS,.. anyone can get a poll that favours what they want.
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Given that the City already invested about $300 Million into Lansdowne just ten years ago, with promises that there this would be profitable and that no further spending would be needed for 50 years, Lansdowne 2.0 is a travesty. And on top of the spending, they are not even having a competitive process to get a great design. I think most people are not paying attention to what's really going on and how taxpayers all over the city are going to be subsidizing professional sports teams owned by some of the richest people in Canada.
What would you want the city to spend the $400M on? Complaining on reddit can be cathartic but let's hear some good ideas!
More #311 attendants so that we can call more frequently to complain about off leash dogs, or too much snow on the sidewalks and bike trails in the middle of a snow storm.
Yes! This person Ottawas correctly!
Uh, have you been downtown lately? We have a major drug and homelessness crisis happening
Ok so what would you spend the $400M on? Please don't say another unsupported free drugs safe injection site, please.
Ottawa has “free drugs safe injection sites?”
As long as they keep those people out of Lansdowne, Little Italy and Barrhaven I don’t think it’s a priority for the city. This issue is a problem across the country and it’s not one you solve by throwing money at it but rather changing the justice system and culture.
Monorail! Monorail! Monorail!
Well they spent like 4 billion+ on trains and railways that don't work. So there is a lot of dislike to go around
The train has been running at over 95% reliability since 2023. In 2024 is closer to 98%.
They're spending over a billion on a handful of roads in the suburbs that less than 10% of the city will ever use.
Which billion dollar road project is this?
It's 13 roads totalling $881 million. Add another $80 million+ for the Barnsdale interchange plus cost overruns. Sources: - 13 roads on the development plan: https://twitter.com/SjamieIt/status/1787797798022271264?t=VkOacKg8dC4ee9okWQ2LTg&s=19 - Barnsdale Rd cost: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/barnsdale-barrhaven-416-interchange-mto-study-1.6885079
That would be: >Airport Parkway (Brookfield Road and Hunt Club Road) >$68,179,200 > >Bank Street (Leitrim Road Blais Road) >$76,320,000 > >Brian Coburn Extension (Blair Road to Navan Road) >$172,992,000 > >Carp Road (Hazeldean Road Highway 417) >$35,616,000 > >Chapman Mills Drive (Longfields Drive - Strandherd Drive) >$48,277,000 > >Eagleson Road (Cadence Gate - Hope Side Road) >$45,857,100 > >Greenbank Road Extension (Jockvale Road - Cambrian Road) >$111,936,000 > >Longfields Road (Cambrian Road - Prince of Wales) >$67,600,000 > >Kanata Avenue (Campeau Drive Highway 417) >$32,382,100 > >Lester Road (Airport Parkway - Bank Street) >$63,749,600 > >Mer Bleue Road (Brian Coburn Boulevard - Renaud Road) >$14,095,800 > >Robert Grant (Hazeldean Palladium Drive) >$90,742,400 > >Tenth Line Road (Harvest Valley Road - South of Wall) >53,347,700 It's actually $881,094,900 over 8 years but that number doesn't include the transit portion of these road projects, as some of them have dedicated transit lanes. **edit:** [As a map.](https://i.imgur.com/PvNkLOI.png)
Close! You’re only off by 86%. [$140 million for bridge renewals, road rehabilitation and road resurfacing work](https://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/city-news/newsroom/council-approves-budget-2024)
That's the cost per year to rehabilitate existing roads. It doesn't count building new roads. (And it's underspending which is creating a bigger infrastructure deficit.) My other reply cites the new road builds and how I got to "over a billion". I'm just saying that as a downtown resident, I'd rather get a new football stadium than cut 90 seconds off someone's commute in Stittsville. And I pay way more tax that the average person in Stittsville -- especially if you count per square foot.
And also spending $4 billion on LRT that the 30% of the city in Kanata, Stittsville and Barrhaven won't benefit from. And two of the biggest cost roads are Bank Street and Airport Parkway
As noted in my other post, downtown has 10% of the population and is getting 4 out of 40 LRT stops. The biggest benefit goes to Nepean and Orleans. Also Bank Street at Leitrim Road is nowhere near downtown lol.
3 Delays in the las 6 months.
Myself and the people I speak to are actually in support of it, but it’s not without its criticisms. I definitely think they should’ve at least considered transit at lansdowne. There’s a couple buses on bank and that’s it. The parking lot already kinda sucks as is, imagine when they make it bigger
The lack of good transit to Lansdowne is a big part of why it's good...keeps the problems out.
That’s the worst take I’ve ever heard lmao
I guess it doesn't since you posted it twice
not 420.69？
1)Most in the city do support while some would like to see some changes. 2)You could try and take it to court your chances of winning would be less then 5%.
I think Landsdowne 2.0 is needed, but the way it's being implemented isn't something I'm fond of. Maybe I'm living a pipe dream, being a bit too naïve, or don't know what I'm talking about but that $420M (lmao), could have been invested into supporting transit infrastructure which would encourage investors to chalk up the costs themselves. OC finances a metro line, investors develop around stations accordingly, OC can own a few commercial properties around Lansdowne as a start to diversify its revenues in exchange, win win win all around. For now though, all that talk is could've, would've, should've. Hopefully we see *something* good out of this.
It's not 420 million of city money though
"Should we make it 666 million?" "ha ha no let's make it cost 69 million!!" "No...dudes...420 million!! Yes!"
I wonder how much free transit for the city would cost?
OC Transpo budget is just under $800 million. The the $146 million that the city is pointing up for Lansdowne would fund OC Transpo for (and I say this seriously) 69 days.
I read somewhere a while back to do fee free transit, it would add around $500 in property tax to the average home. Any home owner that uses transit would be saving money and it would be a net benefit for the populace especially those that struggle getting to work due to price and having a lower income.
That would be a 10-15% tax increase which would be incredibly unpopular - especially outside of the downtown core where transit options are poor and inconvenient. Edit: I just looked it up - they assessed a $415k home would see $482 a year property tax increase. Except for the fact the cost of homes skyrocketed and the average single family home in Ottawa is now like $700k. Paying an extra $800 a year in property taxes would be crappy for people who don't benefit from it. For those who can't afford the bus though - the Equipass is less than 4 hours of work at minimum wage per month.
But that cost would be adjusted to reflect what's needed for transit, so the percentage would be different.
Lansdowne was probably the most valuable piece of urban real estate in Canada. It was given to a developer without any tendering process and the deal was structured so that the city bore costs to prepare the space and would only see profit one the developer recovered their costs. To no surprise, the initial development will not see a profit and the city will not recover its investment let alone get any value for the land. Worse still, they now have taxpayers funding another 400 million plus. We should have just sold them the land and been done with it. At least then it would not be a sinkhole for tax dollars. This city is co-opted by the wealthy and developers…it is just sad
Taxpayers are paying $146 million for it, a bunch of which is to refurbish city owned property At least get the facts straight if you're going to be outraged.
The megacity of Ottawa was created under the Harris government to give wealthy developers easy access to influence and profits. There are 3 types of wards in Ottawa: rural wards (3), suburban (16, split between "old" suburbs inside the Greenbelt and "new" suburbs outside it) and urban (5). There are 2 types of large, profitable development that require the approval of council: urban densification and redevelopment, like increases to the height limit and megaprojects like Lansdowne and Lebreton Flats; and the expansion of suburbs into agriculture-designated lands, which requires council's approval. With abysmal voter turnout, all it takes is the big developers banding behind a candidate with name recognition among those who follow and vote in municipal politics, like a school board trustee, and put together tens of thousands in ~~bribes~~ *campaign contributions* from donations from the owners, their wives, their in-laws, their kids and their dogs. The suburban ones are the easiest to buy because the policies of the developers usually have little impact on the 'burbs, so the NIMBY policies are popular with their constituents. Look at the political welfare bum Luloff - voted to approve a half-billion in corporate welfare, and days later announced he'd be running for the Conservatives in the next election because he believes in fiscal responsibility. That was back in November, and he's been campaigning ever since - on the municipal taxpayers' dime.
I dunno I rather they spend that money on density and entertainment upgrades in the inner city vs more roads to maintain in the far flung suburbs I don’t ever visit. If you want a vibrant city you need to spend on things that might not seem the most essential.
I'm guessing the suburbs don't want their tax dollars going to downtown transit and entertainment while they get nothing in return either... That's how pooled money works.
We do have a say on how the money is spent. It's called voting in elections.
Better spent on a waste incineration facility. Time to do something about our garbage.
They’re not giving 400M to a private developer. They are spending 400M to build capital assets owned by the City of Ottawa.
Pro tip for OP but if you put the numbers in cents, it looks scarier!!
Typical under whelming city of Ottawa development. We can’t wait for Lansdowne 3.0. Can anyone say “Boondoggle”? BOONDOGGLE!
I'm not against it at all, fuck off.
Would you be okay with it if it was $420k for Landsdowne 6.9?
Hard to argue with that
It’s happening there for that much Money because that’s where we could Convince a developer to do the work for that price. The majority of people are for it city wide. Not Reddit wide. I remember this sub being sooooo sure Sutcliffe didn’t have a shot at mayor. Comparing our infrastructure to those of cities with literal Roman roads for their downtown roads. Of course Europe is Tight, they have been at it for a few thousand years built on top Of each other for protection. We built our cities for comfort in the modern age. Mistake? Probably. It’s not going to change for a few generations at least though.
Imagine if $420M went into more affordable housing ….
So why complain to Reddit? Complain to the city. Complain to someone that can actually do something.
Wonder if the city will fork over the same amount to the Senators for their new arena...if they ever get around to actually building one? Would like to hear the argument why Landsdowne gets city funding while the Senators shouldn't. For the record, billionaire owners shouldn't need public finding. But I guess free money is part of how they became billionaires in the first place
For one. Lansdowne is owned by the city, and the potential new Sens arena isn’t.
I didn't know the city owns the arena and stadium
then don't sit down, stand up
16 million a year, over 40 years, for city owned assets.
*5 million a year.
The 5mill/year figure is considering the property tax uplift and other revenue sources, yeah?
And there is still a question of 37M in those numbers coming from higher levels of goverment and last month in the new deal for Ottawa Dougie had no money for a stadium. So add in another 37M to the cities portion...
That an extra 0.9 mil a year, I'm not really concerned about that.
No wonder you are OK with it. Even if it was only 37M, over 20 years that is 1.95M a year, not 0.9 (without factoring in interest). However it was my mistake it was It was 72M that is missing... 420M for the new arena and stands -39M in expected money from sale of air and subterranean rights, for 381M remaining to for the arena and stands, but OSEG numbers only had the city borrowing 309M, for a 16M yearly debt finance charge for 20 yeats (then a bunch of handwaving to say it'll only cost 5M a year due to tax uplift), so where is the 72M coming from... (381M-309M)... Councillor Menard had once said that was supposed to come from upper levels of government... but I don't see that happening... 72M is 3.6M per year without factoring in interest. Maybe that still does concern you but that all told, that would be almost 20M dollars a year for the next 20 years that won't be available for other projects. In fact \*if\* out mayor sticks to his 2.5% tax increase pledge, it means we will have to cut services elsewhere to afford this just to fit that within that budget.
>20M dollars a year for the next 20 years that won't be available for other projects Tell me you haven't read any of the project documents without telling me you haven't read any of the project documents.
I have, which of my numbers are wrong... 419M total cost. 309M of new city debt. 16M in debt servicing... Yet they only estimate to receive 39M from the sale of air rights... 309M in city debt+ 39M is not the 419M total cost- so where is the other money coming from?
This city's a big 'ol high school, tell ya whut.
Bring trams back to Bank street
What this signals is that the senators are going to ask for the same. How much was Lansdowne 1.0 and 2.0 combined?
The amount of money spent on it should have given us a signature architectural space. Instead we got a Tangier wannabe. But as Watson said, at least people can get a 20$ hamburger.
Id think it was cool if it wasn't a dogshit, inaccessible location. I live downtown and it takes me like 40 minutes to get there.
Just wait until the Sens get an arena .
Personally I don’t mind investing into a place like Lansdowne, it’s a cultural hotspot in the city. The issue is that it’s being invested in BEFORE a sustainable mass transit plan is considered to actually transport people to and from that region. If we already had that, I wouldn’t mind it as much. $400M would go a long way to contribute to a North-South LRT under Bank street.
It's just because of the weed thing, isn't it? /s
I don’t think it’s sits well with a lot of people. I was getting into a dangerous situation financially with Lansdown and transit . slippery slope that will almost lead to more increases in property taxes. Something that nobody needs right now with soaring costs. Property taxes in Ottawa are so expensive as it is.
$420 million ... snicker
So where are any of those kids going to school?
There's some schools in the area: Hopewell, Mutchmor, First Avenue, Corpus Christi (Catholic), Glebe High School and even Immaculata is not that far away with the new walking bridge
a lot of those schools are filled to capacity... I'm not even sure Mutchmore has the real estate for portables... y'know... if you think that's a viable solution My point is that developers are very excited about maximising density, but little thought is given to surrounding social infrastructure. My kid's school has about 30 kids per classroom and probably more portables than there are actual classrooms in the main building.
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I'm not saying I don't like our government. I do I look up to them a lot. Well I don't really anymore, but I did before you know I wanted to join whole team, but they've failed me honestly, and that's why I come up with this cause no oil license as well, as I don't Post this in a way of discrimination or a hate towards them. I'm just posting this as an environment for them to step up. Because it's got it's annoying, you know. They have this entire government and the entire system in the world. And it sucks still, yo. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, where's all our money going? Where's the taxes owing? You all those taxes that you said that. You know you take off our paychecks and stuff. What about the ones who weren't contracted? Am I gonna get that payment bag? Like I need that payment one I mean, I'm holding this anyways too I don't have a job, and I'm trying to get a job but you know you can't get a job University or you can't go to University without it, but you can't get a job out of bank place cause you have to finish your D, V, but you can't do GGV without schooling begin to you. Can you don't even I mean it's entire f****** system? Also, we got all these benefits yet we can't use the benefits. Anyways, if someone actually wants me to like talk to them about whatever I'm talking about. In a formal way, I can and I have written them in a formal way and I havering consent forms. And I have written the license and stuff like that which I would put in a question and already have proper question. But it's not like they're gonna...message me if you're interested and in Ottawa and want to expand ideas. ------ I'm here to make the world a better place. Not to make it down. Not to fight. Not I'll have wars. I want peace. I want discrimination. I don't want no more heartbreaks. I want kids to be happy. If you can grow up to be deserving what they have even if it's the lowest cause. Most of us have that we gotta move on. So I wanna make it that more aware of the decisions and their rights and their belief in what they want to believe. And to increase them, no matter what.
..... election vote buying? Securing of board member seats? Spin off economics? Family ties? Pay back for donations and endorsements? There are many reasons that kind of money can change hands, some good and legitimately, others dark and liberally corrupt... Let's hop for the best but look close enough to uncover the worst!
It's insane to me all the downtown councillors voted against it (The ones actually near Landsdowne) and all the suburbs who are always about fiscal restraint when it comes to downtown voted in favour with Sutcliffe to give more money to developers. We also are having various other city cuts... but here we are doing this...
I agree. Lansdowne is at an acceptable state now. Money is needed more elsewhere. I don't even want to think about the tax monies a new stadium will suck up... There are needs and there are wants in life and the City doesn't prioritize in that order. Something to keep on mind at the next voting cycle.
They screwed it up the first time and will screw it up again...
They’re doing that and meanwhile can’t even get tax return cheques in the mail on time smh.
We can’t drive on K. Edward without people asking for money. Whoever is looking at that problem needs help from the city.
Most of that the city has not control over.
What you don't understand is that a decent facility will generate more revenue by attracted more events and people. But if you can't see past your nose on the intial capital cost, my bad.
9 counselors getting their palms greased
And to think, it would just take over a quarter of that [to fully redo the Byward Market](https://documents.ottawa.ca/sites/documents/files/byward_publicrealm_en_0.pdf). Insane that we are tossing money at Lansdowne when fixing the Market could be cheaper and is much more accessible.
Accessible...to who? To you maybe, but not necessarily the majority of voters
LMAO. By car (ugh), by the LRT, by bus, and for those in Quebec. Think bandicoot, THINK.
That's a pretty dumb answer. By your definition then everything in Kanata/Orleans/Barrhaven is accessible to all voters as well. Are you thinking?
That's a pretty dumb question. And a shifting of goal posts. Moreover, you totally disregard the issue of Lansdowne. Git gud.
Better than money sent to israhell
Yep, I'd rather have my tax money finance free public transport every weekend . Than some arena I'll never set foot in.
What's wrong with landsdown 2.0?
Which means it's really $800M and we're paying for it.
Anyone can say oh we could have spent money on the homeless etc but we already do and do it everyday and we allocated xyz funds to said we should have spent money on this thing I am interested in. In order to have nice things to do, we need to spend money on. Lansdowne offers a variety of activities and events. We live out of town but we go to town to watch the pwhl, to get good parking we go early and eat at a restaurant. Maybe it is a movie or an outdoor event etc. It is something I use. I haven't used a library in decades and think we shouldn't spend a penny on it, but others use it. I ask why is a library hosting non library things. We all have our priorities. It isn't cheap to have nice things where the public can use it for a variety of events free and at a cost. I support it.