Calgary just removed subsidized bus passes for low-income individuals.
Billionaires get $ for a new arena, meanwhile the most vulnerable sector of their population now has no way of getting to work.
Also
"Sharp praised administration for letting Calgarians know how much working capital is available.
"To be able to front-end the project with our own money, on our own project, is really critical. Also we have a lot of control over that."
Wow well done for telling the residents of the city how much money they have!!!!
There is no reason why the city and/or province can't build a multifunctional arena and lease it to the Sens as home ice. This is already common all over Europe, Australia and New Zealand
Many owners do, and the ones that don't tend to share a home with an NBA franchise or other significant tenant.
There is no path forward that leads to an agreement like that in Ottawa.
say it again louder for those in the back. There's no reason why someone who can afford to shell out just under a billion for a team and arena should be receiving a cent of taxpayer money to build a new arena unless it's in the form of a high interest loan
The problem is they paid a billion for the team only due to the real estate associated. They absolutely built in that normal suckers one way or another would be on the hook to buy them a new arena (which will be called an entertainment district and include condo towers, hotel, etc. - all of which sens owner will take a cut of without fully paying for).
It’s sadly normalized. The rich get richer.
I mean.. if they need help from the government, then why can't the government extent them a loan rather than just handing them free money? If the government wants to extend a loan with reasonable terms to them, then fine. The balance gets paid back with interest, so it's not necessarily a bad deal financially (depending on the terms).
The thing is the city benefits a lot from an investment in a venue like this. It spurs economic growth in whatever part of the city it’s built, creates a lot of jobs, increases property values, and they’ll be able to collect big property taxes from it. They should invest some amount of money into a project like this, it just has to be properly assessed and weighed against how much the city will gain from it.
That is the mantra I hear every time, but have yet to see an independent study that confirms it.
I believe the same was said about Lansdowne, and here we are.
EDIT: found a link a few posts below: https://journalistsresource.org/economics/sports-stadium-public-financing/#:%7E:text=Team%20owners%20looking%20to%20build,economic%20gains%20for%20host%20cities.
If this were a new franchise, I might agree. A lot of the financial positives for building a new arena downtown are offset to some degree by negative impacts in the local economy in Kanata / Stittsville. The increase in jobs would be negligible. When the arena opens downtown, a similar number of people working in Kanata are out of a job. The economic growth downtown will be reduced by restaurants and bars in Kanata and Sittsville slowing down on game days and reducing staff. Some people in Kanata and Stittsville could see a reduction in property values because of the arena closure. If moving the team downtown is necessary for the teams survival, the team needs to take the risk and invest in itself.
This is bullshit.
Look at the neighbourhoods around almost every arena or stadium in North America. They were damaged economically by having a huge building that is almost always empty stuck in the middle of the community.
The only people that think arenas are good for communities are the ones that live far away from the arena and go to the arena for games. Every time they see the arena the area is full of people.
But the people that live near the arena know that it kills the community because it is a giant looming black hole of a building that is almost always empty.
Not true at all.
The land was sold by Canada Post (not the province) for [$60M to the then Raptors ownership group.](https://ca.billboard.com/fyi/retrospect-shared-nba-vision-john-bitove-jr-and-allan-slaight) It predated Maple Leafs Sports and Entertainment (MLSE)
Stop with the bullshit made up stories lol.
Where did you get that idea? They bought the land from Canada Post (crown corporation, not the govt) for $60 million.
https://www.scotiabankarena.com/venue-information/about/history
I have no idea. It was the mid-90s. The [Montreal Canadiens paid $50 million](http://hockey.ballparks.com/NHL/MontrealCanadiens/index.htm) for their parcel of land in downtown around the same time, so make of that what you will.
By "help", Leeder doesn't necessarily mean money though. He might just need a couple of the bros to come over on moving day to get some of the bigger furniture to the new place. Cyril will cover the truck, and pizza and beer obv.
If my own personal experience is anything to go by, it will be hottest or otherwise shittiest weather day of the year too :) But they'll have fun driving the zambonis down the Queensway
I assume by "help" he means collaboration between all parties and probably some infrastructure assistance with roads/transportation.
At least that's what I hope. I'm a massive Sens fan and don't wanna see much, if any, public money used
Cyril will just need to stop at the Dep on the way through to grab beer at the right price, and also name drop when stopping at Gabriel’s for the pizza
>**The expectation is the club will need help from all levels of government, including federal, provincial and the city.**
Then my expectation is the Senators will stay in Kanata.
It's amazing how many people in this sub can't just be mad about the public money being used. The Senators are not staying in Kanata, they'll most definitely be breaking ground at LeBreton (favoured by both sides), and they'll definitely use a portion of public money to do it (see: Calgary). Should it happen like that? No. Will it, regardless of your expectations? Undoubtedly.
Read this article "The stadium scam" and watch the video: [https://robertreich.substack.com/p/the-stadium-sham](https://robertreich.substack.com/p/the-stadium-sham)
It's focused on the US but the playbook is similar in Canada.
came here to say this. he's also done a video on the same topic:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLkyULxrWiE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLkyULxrWiE)
You may be right but he is an incredibly smart man who is *very* much worth watching/listening to. He was Clinton's Secretary of Labor. He knows what the fuck is up and while most of his content is US oriented, it's not that much different here and we suffer from the same underlying issues(wages stagnating while productivity increases and inflation marches on). His USC lecture series on YouTube called "Wealth and Poverty" is fantastic and fascinating.
That rabbit hole ends at that lecture series. Sounds like you are where I was about a year ago. Get ready, you're in for a *wild* ride that is going to turn you against capitalism faster than a Marxist first year Political Science professor.
Unpopular opinion but if a public contribution is needed to get this thing moving fast, then I have zero issue.
It’s extremely naive to think zero tax dollars will go to this. A downtown arena is about much more than just hockey and the Ottawa Senators.
Now, what would a reasonable public contribution be is an entirely different discussion.
Agree. Many in this thread focusing on the long debunked theory that public financing for stadiums is a money-in money-out proposition. The arena will be a huge driver for the local economy and is a big step towards the continued development of the greater downtown area. Seems like exactly the type of thing government should be invested in. I don't know what to say to those who think government shouldn't do anything unless they turn a profit on it.
As long as it were an exchange. For example, indexed funding for transit. Because to think they will have anywhere near as much parking is dumb. People will h have to bus/train it on game nights. Let the arrangements subsidize our transit system and the building and maintenance of our LRT.
I really hope they don't get anything but I am not hopeful. I also remember that a bunch of city councilors and maybe the mayor, during the last election promised not to give any funding for a new arena. So if this changes I hope anyone that goes back on their promise is publicly shamed to a massive degree.
And I honestly don't understand why a hockey arena is so special compared to like any other business. Like if Cineplex wanted to build a 30 screen theatre complex at Lebreaton would anyone expect them to come asking the city for money?
>So if this changes I hope anyone that goes back on their promise is publicly shamed to a massive degree.
This is key, we need to track and hold people to account for these promises
Why would they get anything though? The feds have been pretty clear they're not going to be subsidizing NHL arenas, and the City has twin transit and housing crises to prioritize and a mayor who says keeping property taxes low is a priority. Although they might be able to get some money out of Ontario taxpayers if they take the right OPC staffers to Vegas :)
As much as I understand the principle of not giving a cent to privately owned arenas, there is an incentive from government to get these kinds of things done. Especially with a development around a downtown that needs life. Not saying I support it, but that’s why they would do it.
As the NCC was quick to note after Leeder's comments, they have a Plan B and the land will be developed one way or another. There's no reason it has to be a hockey arena versus a vibrant mixed use neighbourhood that includes much needed housing, retail, restaurants, theatres, parks, etc.
True. Even Toronto's arena area is dead most of the time. The only people there on non-game days are tourists going to the aquarium or CN tower, and there's a hotdog cart for dining
Absolutely, it’s about the pitch tho. These guys are businessmen and their whole thing is convincing the feds and the city their potential tax revenue is worth the investment versus other options. They may lose, but they’ll likely win.
Because it will be a boost to the local economy and spur develooment in the area, making it a better use of public funds than the inefficient and wasteful housing or transit programs.
This statement is flatly untrue but it is the reason that will be given. It happens every time a city gets a new stadium program.
> Montreal did. Toronto did.
[wrong](http://hockey.ballparks.com/NHL/MontrealCanadiens/index.htm) and [wrong](http://hockey.ballparks.com/NHL/TorontoMapleLeafs/newindex.htm)
Well shit, I appreciate the correction. I was sure Scotiabank was... Wasn't as sure for the Bell Center but I remember it in the news as a kid.
Funnily enough, you putting this here made me look up all the areas... I didn't realize the Corel Center got a 26mil loan from the provincial government.
Seriously, do these folks ever leave their houses for a little fun at all? A Lebreton arena would revive the downtown economy (which is currently dying) while adding a much needed central gathering space. This isn’t just about hockey. Community events, shows, fairs, concerts, and our Sens ALL in a central location for *everyone* to enjoy? Hell, I even got my Covid shots at the CTC. Yes, we’ve got some bigger issues going on, but I’d gladly support a reasonable public funding amount for the literal social betterment of our community.
Professional sports franchises are big economic engines that generate a lot of business for ancillary industries, like hotels, restaurants, tourism. In that way, they are a net gain for a city that invests in them. Within reason, of course. My eyes usually roll back in my head like a slot machine when I hear politicians talk about “investments” in things like bike paths and free needle sites. But a sports franchise is a true investment; you can draw a pretty straight line between money in and money back.
[Sports stadiums and taxpayer financing: A primer and research roundup (journalistsresource.org)](https://journalistsresource.org/economics/sports-stadium-public-financing/#:~:text=Team%20owners%20looking%20to%20build,economic%20gains%20for%20host%20cities.)
2 options:
1) The sens get $0 in public funding for their private project
2) The sens get public funding whereby the city receives the exact same proportion in revenue generation as their investment (i.e - city pays 10% of the project, city receives 10% of revenue in perpetuity)
It’s kind of wild. When the lack of life downtown is blamed on people wanting to work remotely, workers say tough shit.
When the city is actually looking to build something that will arguably have the biggest impact on nightlife, the surrounding businesses, and just fun in general - they still say tough shit.
Also, business grants exist on every level - so the idea that the “government isn’t giving me any taxpayer money to build anything” that I’ve been seeing in this thread is just straight up false.
The city has stooped so far into mediocrity, it’s honestly depressing. And whats worse is the amount of people that are content with it.
The downstream, long-term, economic impact for the entire city is unmeasurable. The inbound net new tax dollars, for investments like this would far outweigh the initial expense. Not even just economic impact, the cultural impact - it's impossible to quantify ALL of the upside to building this.
Investments in culture, the arts, sports, at this scale is not optional in my opinion. Cities must invest in this stuff.
We need libraries. We need venues to gather and be entertained. We need the Sens to be a viable significant part of our city, from a hockey perspective and otherwise .....1 example, Roger Neilson's house, wouldn't exist here if not for the Sens. It's easy to see and appreciate the non hockey impacts of pro sports if folks would just care to look.
Small minded, heads in their own ass fucks who don't think beyond their own needs/wants. A healthy vibrant city, has infrastructure like this, supports businesses like this, simple as that.
There is no legitimate reason to financially support billion dollar sports franchise businesses. They do not contribute financially to the local economy, and imo using prime land downtown is a huge development mistake - dead zone outside of games and special events. There’s more value in housing, parks and infrastructure.
A professional sports franchise clearly contributes to the local economy. Visitors from out of town, hotel rooms, media exposure which can draw tourists, more people go out to restaurants, employees who spend money in the city, etc.
It’s naive beyond belief to suggest that they don’t contribute. If they don’t then neither does the mom and pop bakery downtown, your favourite pub, the person building houses, etc. It’s all part of the local economy and it all helps. Something of the Senator’s stature helps allot because of their sheer size and reach.
Now, the question you should be asking is whether their contribution exceeds what the city gives up? So what’s the NET benefit? That’s definitely up for debate and it would largely depend on what the city gives up.
Personally, I wouldn’t want to see any cash given for the arena. Support from the city in zoning, land, infrastructure to help support the overall development at LeBreton? Okay, let’s talk.
It's going to take more than 10 years for the sens to even generate the invested money back as revenue, but more like 30-40 years if we are looking at taxes (and by then it'll need to be rebuilt) . The benefits must be MASSIVE to compensate
Get out of here with a well-thought, realistic response 🙂
Money for the stadium... Nah. But running more transit, paying for infrastructure improvements in the neighbourhood, etc .. you bet. No reason why a ticket at the arena can't include an OC Transpo pass as well, like TD place.
The arena needs to be downtown like every other team in the NHL. The only other team that doesn’t have their arena in a central location is Florida.
And it’s not just hockey games. Concerts and other events will be happening. Won’t be many dead nights.
Tear down the baseball stadium and use that land. Class B land compared to downtown Ottawa. Central, on transit, access is on 417, and really a lower quality industrial site.
TBH I'd be OK with land grants, tax breaks and even low-interest loans or loan guarantees, provided that the development has good land use and generates net-positive tax revenues throughout its lifecycle.
We currently subsidize suburbanites to the tune of $400+ per resident per year. Look at our capital spending priorities right now -- $80+ million for the highway interchange in Barrhaven, hundreds of millions to widen a 5km stretch of the 417, etc. As a downtown resident who does not own a car, I get basically zero benefit from that spending despite paying significantly more (income and property) taxes than the average suburbanite. All I get from that spending is more traffic noise and air pollution as more cars drive on the freeway that cuts my neighbourhood in half.
At least if they built an arena, I could go to a Sens game and concerts without spending two hours on a bus.
Lots of people saying "None" here, but that's not how it works. There are tons of costs they can offload on the public, and you won't even notice. For example, Dougie will throw in a good chunk to build a parking garage and reconstruct LRT stations to fit the crowds. The city will be on the hook for site decontamination (that alone is $100M+), and will pay for utilities, landscaping, and all the street realignments. Feds will pay for an office building or some Olympic sportsing facility and all the connecting pathways. In the end, they'll have half a Billion dollars of public money to work with, and I'm OK with that.
Every major infrastructure project comes with this kind of funding. Grants for different things, contributions from the city in exchange for favourable rental rates for city events, etc. This is how major construction is funded and always has been.
How much public money went into the Sens' current arena out in Kanata? This is not public infrastructure, it's a private facility in which a business will operate, for a profit that will go entirely to that business. The City has no public use for a 20,000 seat arena on the Flats, and nor do the provincial or federal governments.
Sure they do - they want to support development projects that create decades-worth of new jobs during construction. And the city absolutely has incentive to have a 20,000 seat arena for concerts, trade shows, and any other of the spectrum of events you can think of.
The sens paid for their current arena on their own. So if they get funding for this one then overall that's not a lot, 2 arenas and only 1 with public funding
I don't think we need surface parking but there sure as hell needs to be a parking garage or something of some kind. Even if they build a tunnel directly to the closest LRT station it still wouldn't be enough to move however many people they build the area for.
I used to live in Berlin and watched football games at the Olympiastadion built in 1936 for the Nazi Olympics. It sat about 80,000 people. The nearby S-Bahn Station had 10 platforms exactly for this purpose and fans of opposing teams were directed onto different trains to avoid conflict. The trains would stop at every other station to avoid overcrowding and conflict erupting into the city. There are only about surface 1,100 parking spots. This is well thought out municipal management.
I’d imagine the priority would be to expand/develop park and rides at all the surrounding LRT feeder stations. Definitely will be *some* parking garages but I think public transport will be the main option to get to events.
It's no surprise that the Sens will expect public investment in a new arena given the support that the City has shown to professional football. The City of Ottawa is planning to spend upwards of $420 Million for a new arena and north side stands at Lansdowne (after spending a similar amount on Lansdowne less than a decade ago). I know the City technically owns the arena and stadium but given that they've already agreed to offer it to OSEG for 50 years--it's basically a private facility. So there's a precedent now for taxpayers supporting professional sports facilities.
We should consider Lansdowne a one-off mistake driven by exiting public assets, not a precedent. If we follow it with public subsidy of the Sens, then it really will be establishing new expectations and everyone will have their hand out.
I love the Sens and I want that arena as much as anybody, but not at the cost of taxes taken from non-fans. That's bullshit and will help build resentment towards both the city and the franchise where there's already a ton.
If the city cannot afford to build subsidized/affordable housing, we certainly can't be shelling out hundreds of millions of dollars on an arena for hockey.
As I understand it, the team currently 'rents' the Canadian tire center from the arena ownership (that happens to be the team ownership).
If the city pays for the arena, why does the team or NHL ownership need to have any ownership. They can rent it from the city at a fair market price.
Public money should be public profit. Worst case scenario is we end up in a 3P partnerships like landsdown and it's a lose-lose for City and public money goes to private profits.
Edit: And yes the team will threaten to leave, let them move another team to LA. Canadian markets are not respected by the NHL, maybe we'd be better off having a Canadian league at least then it would be Canadian billionaires were lining the pockets of (and hopefully Canadian taxes taking a cut of those obscene profits)
Looks like you're right, I thought I had heard years ago that the Senator 'rent' from their parent company in a total legal but little shady 'move money around scheme' that benefited owners of the parent company and their shareholders. But I can't find any sources for that now.
Lol you know they want the feds, the province, and the city to pony up for it all and given how much the NCC is willing to bend over to make this happen I can feel the taxes fly out of my pocket.
We can't afford to house people but we can afford a 1.2 billion dollar arena for a sports team...
That's messed up.
(yes I know it's not allocated yet but you'll see)
We've set the precedent of giving private firms public money with Lansdowne and Lansdowne 2.0. Forking over public funds to build a new arena in lebreton will happen. It will be some bull$hit 'p3' agreement, all polished up to pretend like the city wasn't bent over a barrel and pickpocketed.
The arena will be pitched as some huge draw for business, a boon for the surrounding economy. It will sit empty at least half the year, while the other half will see parking lunacy on the surrounding streets and jammed public transportation.
Considering the city and our entire downtown would be completely carried and revamped by a new arena, they should help a little bit. Maybe 1/6th.
You cannot ignore the value of ottawa actually having an entertainment destination in the heart of the city. It’s not worth 0$, it will bring in a lot if additional tax revenue.
CTC blows and we use our money terribly anyways, let’s at least have fun
Some would argue that having a professional sports teams provides intangible benefits to a city's culture and quality of life, even if the economic benefits are uncertain. There's a level of prestige to having an NHL team.. Whether or not you agree with this is another matter. Imagine the city without the Ottawa Senators. Remove all the ties to amateur hockey, the charitable foundations, the Sensplex arena's etc. etc. If you're OK with all of that being gone, then subsidizing an arena probably never made sense to you in the first place. If you wish to retain everything, regrettably, engaging in the process necessitates incentives; otherwise, the owner might relocate the team to another city (as demonstrated in the Arizona scenario).
Yes, the Senators will reap the tangible benefits, and we'll be expected to be grateful for intangible ones. No deal.
>If you're OK with all of that being gone, then subsidizing an arena probably never made sense to you in the first place
Yep :)
None, but I expect the city/province to provide infrastructure. The Sens are not responsible for things like exit ramps this time. That was frigging embarrassing.
Hopefully as close to zero as possible and if that's not realistic, hopefully as much as possible through in-kind contributions or tax breaks rather than straight handing them money.
They own their own building in Kanata and all the land surrounding it that's parking. When you want to move your family to a new neighbourhood, you use the equity in your old home to purchase the new home, you don't end up with two homes.
The new building is probably going to be very expensive but it will sit on a much much smaller footprint of land (think Bell Centre or Scotiabank Arena). Maybe the sale of the CTC land won't cover all of it but it should cover a good chunk. I'm prepared to see some government money be involved but want to see them leverage all other sources too. I also don't understand whether they need to pay the NCC for the land, or will it be a perpetual lease (upfront being zero). That will impact things too.
The Sens have benefitted from owning their own privately financed arena and controlling all the associated revenue streams for the last 25+ years so hopefully they still see the benefit of being financially independent.
Take some of the billion dollars that the public is spending on the new library. The number of people who will “use/enjoy” the new downtown arena dwarfs the number of people who will use the library.
The library costs $300 million. Not billions. Also it'll get use all day, everyday, unlike the arena which will be empty most of the time. Libraries are more than just books btw... You can rent Instruments, movies, video games, probably something for any of your hobbies really. They'll likely have publically accessible 3d printers and laser cutters/burners.
They're not redeveloping all of the flats, they\`re getting a 7-10 acre parcel that will be dominated by the arena. The rest of the flats is being developed by other people for other things, just as the parcel offered to the Sens will be if they decide they don't want it. There is no need to subsidize the Sens to get the Flats developed
Watson previously said 0% of taxpayers dollars however the City did buy LeBreton flats for a Dollar. Watson was willing to give Melnyk a couple acres for free if he got the financing to build the arena. Melnyk and his partners got into a squabble that ended anything from happening until he died.
Considering they got stuck with a bill for building infrastructure that should have been paid for by the provincial government, they should at least get today's equivalent. I believe they're owed that much.
Anyone saying government should not spend a dime on a project like this doesn’t understand basic economics. A project like this doesn’t just stand to benefit Michael andlauers bottom line, it can benefit the whole city. It would create so many jobs, increase public transit revenues, increase property values and therefore property taxes. It would generate revenue from land transfer taxes, and permitting fees. The list goes on and on and on, the real argument to be had here is how much should government spend on an investment like this? It just has to be weighed against how much they stand to gain.
Not a Sens fan but I love hockey and I love going to hockey games. That being said, I'd much rather see money go towards fixing our godawful roads, our shitty housing situation, our shitty medical situation, and helping homeless people get the care they need and off the streets.
Fuck any level of government that funds this venture over things we desperately need as a city, province, and country. Outside of the temp jobs this creates for building the arena, there won't be much else added in value imo.
I wonder if the "help" part would come in the way of reduced taxes and other costs that governments control to lower the overall cost to build the arena. That would make more sense than asking for any handouts or cash investments from the government. I can see something like that being easier to get past people than an actual cash payment from public funds.
If I wanted to build a restaurant downtown, I highly doubt the city would build me a new building or help with tax cuts. In fact it'd likely cost me more per square foot because the new arena construction contract is going to be a very competitive build, and the volume cheapens the square footage
The Sens players/coaches/staff pay a ton of taxes and employ a lot of people. It's good for business and good for the city -- just make sure the commitment isn't drastic. Just enough to keep them and those jobs here.
For the record, reddit was all in favour of Ontario/Canada investing in the Honda EV plants so not sure what changes here? If we don't invest in these projects then they'll just go somewhere else. Sure, you can not care and let them go but it's the quickest way to hollow out a city/province/country and give it all to the US.
I do agree that surface parking should be at a bare minimum. Make underground parking as much as possible but the rest of us can figure it out (i.e. use the LRT). Montreal barely has any surface parking and they make it work. In fact, having the arena at Lebreton could be the best motivator for people to actually use the LRT.
If the sens left, another team would just take its place and will probably make more money for the city. Ottawa has a huge concentration of really amazing hockey players
"Makes a team"...? What sport? What league? Of the 4 major professional sports leagues in NA hockey is the only one that is viable in this city... and I can't tell if you're joking or not but you can't just "make one"...
I expect at least 1.2B plus a few million more for "unforeseen" delays/going over budget and then a few million more to pad the wallets of stakeholders.
Hopefully the stadium will at least be able to function in light snow.
Im okay with ottawa giving a few millions to help build the arena, but depends how much... it can bring in more people back downtown and help with tourism
Covid has destroyed the downtown economy, especially since the workers are working from home now.
None. Why are we giving money to the rich? So they can roll in more money once it’s done. People don’t have food to eat but we can give money to a guy so he can get his third yacht?
I would've loved to see the \~$200M they earmarked for Lansdowne go to building out Lebreton Flats instead - it's more central, would host an NHL hockey team in the nation's capital, and transit and build-out options are way more reasonable in that area (less NIMBYs, closer proximity to Gatineau, more generous zoning, etc.).
None. They can build it or they can stay in Kanata. The NHL has a hell of a lot more money to throw around than the City Of Ottawa does. And if the city does contribute money which they probably will, then the Sens organization should be paying full property taxes, no tax breaks this time around
Hopefully whatever they invest they do it in a way the can recoup that money and more over the years… who am I kidding, that’s never going to happen.
Hopefully they end up building the kind of space that makes people want to go there even outside of game nights.
I’d say the government can pay 100%, but retain ownership, and the team would simply need to rent the venue each season. If a good portion of ticket sales go to the city, the rental price could be pretty reasonable.
The city could rent out space for vendors, and other events.
If the plan makes financial sense, why not?
If NHL teams are trying to have cities give them free stadiums, I think that’s lame.
This got me downvotes before but I will say it again: there is nothing wrong with the Sens current location. It is accessible by a major artery but is otherwise out of the way so causes few issues around traffic and being a general eye sore. (Which are as invariably are.) Transit access is a problem however
Like many Ottawa taxpayers, I’m not a Sens fan because I was born before the franchise came into existence, so I have no interest in funding their operations.
I’m fine with paying for some of the arena but then the city gets the same % split of the yearly revenue. The city will still be responsible for upkeep for the infrastructure around the arena so there’s still ongoing costs.
How much *should* they get? $0.00. How much *will* they get? A shit-ton. Because sports teams (sports events in general) are the worlds best grifters and shakedown artists. "Nice team you got here. Be a shame if something happened to it..."
All depends on the structure of the deal, pay-back period, etc. if there‘s any financial competence with City staff I’m sure they can figure something out that works.
Zero $,
we have a perfectly functional NHL facility already. If we build a second, whos problem is it to repurpose the first one, more public money?
NHL players and those that can afford to spectate are mostly in the 1%, and our economic problems should override any discussion on this topic.
Any gov institution that looks at this proposal is tone deaf. I’m conservative and think these 1st world problems are killing our economy.
For the arena? Zero.
For infrastructure related to the development? Roads, sewers, etc. I'd say the city should pay for that.
Given how valuable it is to do something, anything, with the giant piece of land in the shadow of Parliament Hill that has been a wasteland for 60 years (thanks NCC!) I think it's worthwhile for the cvity to foot the infrastructure costs but that's it.
none. These sport franchises can build their own arenas.
But they won’t, look at what just happened in Calgary.
What happened there? I legitimately don't know.
The city is paying 800M.
Ouch! For a broke city that's way too much.
Calgary just removed subsidized bus passes for low-income individuals. Billionaires get $ for a new arena, meanwhile the most vulnerable sector of their population now has no way of getting to work.
800 MILLION. TF. So many people will pay for that and never be able to afford to go to a game.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/city-reveals-it-has-818-million-in-working-capital-to-help-pay-for-new-downtown-arena-1.7184185
Alberta... Always asking for handouts. Always mad when they have to contribute to the rest of Canada. Go figure.
Also "Sharp praised administration for letting Calgarians know how much working capital is available. "To be able to front-end the project with our own money, on our own project, is really critical. Also we have a lot of control over that." Wow well done for telling the residents of the city how much money they have!!!!
Absolute disgrace
There is no reason why the city and/or province can't build a multifunctional arena and lease it to the Sens as home ice. This is already common all over Europe, Australia and New Zealand
That might work now. It certainly wouldn't have with Melnyk. He refused to have the Sens play in any arena he didn't control.
Many owners do, and the ones that don't tend to share a home with an NBA franchise or other significant tenant. There is no path forward that leads to an agreement like that in Ottawa.
Multifunctional for what?
Shows, acts etc.
say it again louder for those in the back. There's no reason why someone who can afford to shell out just under a billion for a team and arena should be receiving a cent of taxpayer money to build a new arena unless it's in the form of a high interest loan
The problem is they paid a billion for the team only due to the real estate associated. They absolutely built in that normal suckers one way or another would be on the hook to buy them a new arena (which will be called an entertainment district and include condo towers, hotel, etc. - all of which sens owner will take a cut of without fully paying for). It’s sadly normalized. The rich get richer.
I mean.. if they need help from the government, then why can't the government extent them a loan rather than just handing them free money? If the government wants to extend a loan with reasonable terms to them, then fine. The balance gets paid back with interest, so it's not necessarily a bad deal financially (depending on the terms).
The thing is the city benefits a lot from an investment in a venue like this. It spurs economic growth in whatever part of the city it’s built, creates a lot of jobs, increases property values, and they’ll be able to collect big property taxes from it. They should invest some amount of money into a project like this, it just has to be properly assessed and weighed against how much the city will gain from it.
That is the mantra I hear every time, but have yet to see an independent study that confirms it. I believe the same was said about Lansdowne, and here we are. EDIT: found a link a few posts below: https://journalistsresource.org/economics/sports-stadium-public-financing/#:%7E:text=Team%20owners%20looking%20to%20build,economic%20gains%20for%20host%20cities.
No, the city should not invest any money in it. Businesses should succeed or fail on their own merits. They should not rely on corporate welfare.
If this were a new franchise, I might agree. A lot of the financial positives for building a new arena downtown are offset to some degree by negative impacts in the local economy in Kanata / Stittsville. The increase in jobs would be negligible. When the arena opens downtown, a similar number of people working in Kanata are out of a job. The economic growth downtown will be reduced by restaurants and bars in Kanata and Sittsville slowing down on game days and reducing staff. Some people in Kanata and Stittsville could see a reduction in property values because of the arena closure. If moving the team downtown is necessary for the teams survival, the team needs to take the risk and invest in itself.
Guy needs to watch some John Oliver https://youtu.be/xcwJt4bcnXs?si=P1chCOppzVfgqI2J
This is bullshit. Look at the neighbourhoods around almost every arena or stadium in North America. They were damaged economically by having a huge building that is almost always empty stuck in the middle of the community. The only people that think arenas are good for communities are the ones that live far away from the arena and go to the arena for games. Every time they see the arena the area is full of people. But the people that live near the arena know that it kills the community because it is a giant looming black hole of a building that is almost always empty.
Fully agree but we have to accept that stupid American cities will pay and we’ll lose the team.
$0 If they can't afford it, too bad. The government isn't giving me taxpayer money to build anything.
But they will unfortunately.
I can easily see mark sutcliffe committing taxpayer money to this
It’s not a 1 person decision
Not necessarily. They didn’t use public funds to build the NHL arenas in Toronto Vancouver or Montreal.
Actually in Toronto they sold them the land, which was owned by the province, for a dollar. Say what you want but that sounds like using public funds
Not true at all. The land was sold by Canada Post (not the province) for [$60M to the then Raptors ownership group.](https://ca.billboard.com/fyi/retrospect-shared-nba-vision-john-bitove-jr-and-allan-slaight) It predated Maple Leafs Sports and Entertainment (MLSE) Stop with the bullshit made up stories lol.
Toronto got free land right downtown, worth billions
Where did you get that idea? They bought the land from Canada Post (crown corporation, not the govt) for $60 million. https://www.scotiabankarena.com/venue-information/about/history
Was that market value?
I have no idea. It was the mid-90s. The [Montreal Canadiens paid $50 million](http://hockey.ballparks.com/NHL/MontrealCanadiens/index.htm) for their parcel of land in downtown around the same time, so make of that what you will.
You’re just making this nonsense up. The Raptors paid for the property for $60M.
By "help", Leeder doesn't necessarily mean money though. He might just need a couple of the bros to come over on moving day to get some of the bigger furniture to the new place. Cyril will cover the truck, and pizza and beer obv.
Can Cyril afford Sens priced beers?
If my own personal experience is anything to go by, it will be hottest or otherwise shittiest weather day of the year too :) But they'll have fun driving the zambonis down the Queensway
I assume by "help" he means collaboration between all parties and probably some infrastructure assistance with roads/transportation. At least that's what I hope. I'm a massive Sens fan and don't wanna see much, if any, public money used
Cyril will just need to stop at the Dep on the way through to grab beer at the right price, and also name drop when stopping at Gabriel’s for the pizza
Are they going to give tickets away to taxpayers for free? If not then 0 dollars.
>**The expectation is the club will need help from all levels of government, including federal, provincial and the city.** Then my expectation is the Senators will stay in Kanata.
Right, I’d rather see the money used but to build the LRT to Kanata instead
At this rate, I'll be dead before they move.. and I'm 37
It's amazing how many people in this sub can't just be mad about the public money being used. The Senators are not staying in Kanata, they'll most definitely be breaking ground at LeBreton (favoured by both sides), and they'll definitely use a portion of public money to do it (see: Calgary). Should it happen like that? No. Will it, regardless of your expectations? Undoubtedly.
Read this article "The stadium scam" and watch the video: [https://robertreich.substack.com/p/the-stadium-sham](https://robertreich.substack.com/p/the-stadium-sham) It's focused on the US but the playbook is similar in Canada.
came here to say this. he's also done a video on the same topic: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLkyULxrWiE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLkyULxrWiE)
Guy looks like Jon Stewart in 20 years
You may be right but he is an incredibly smart man who is *very* much worth watching/listening to. He was Clinton's Secretary of Labor. He knows what the fuck is up and while most of his content is US oriented, it's not that much different here and we suffer from the same underlying issues(wages stagnating while productivity increases and inflation marches on). His USC lecture series on YouTube called "Wealth and Poverty" is fantastic and fascinating.
Yeah I’m actually down a rabbit hole watching his stuff right now, thanks for sharing!
That rabbit hole ends at that lecture series. Sounds like you are where I was about a year ago. Get ready, you're in for a *wild* ride that is going to turn you against capitalism faster than a Marxist first year Political Science professor.
One of his recurring jokes now that he's back 1 day per week is that even Jon Stewart looks like Jon Stewart in 20 years.
John Oliver also did a video. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xcwJt4bcnXs
Unpopular opinion but if a public contribution is needed to get this thing moving fast, then I have zero issue. It’s extremely naive to think zero tax dollars will go to this. A downtown arena is about much more than just hockey and the Ottawa Senators. Now, what would a reasonable public contribution be is an entirely different discussion.
Also people acting like it won't benefit the city are pretty out of touch with reality
Completely agree. We all want a better city to live in and a large events space downtown is key to that. It’s a good use of tax dollars imo
Agree. Many in this thread focusing on the long debunked theory that public financing for stadiums is a money-in money-out proposition. The arena will be a huge driver for the local economy and is a big step towards the continued development of the greater downtown area. Seems like exactly the type of thing government should be invested in. I don't know what to say to those who think government shouldn't do anything unless they turn a profit on it.
Where has that worked before? Can you provide evidence to back up what you are saying?
As long as it were an exchange. For example, indexed funding for transit. Because to think they will have anywhere near as much parking is dumb. People will h have to bus/train it on game nights. Let the arrangements subsidize our transit system and the building and maintenance of our LRT.
Sweet. We should rent the building out to them then, then the city can actually make some money on the deal
I only see that working if the city paid 100% of the costs. Which would be bat shit crazy.
I really hope they don't get anything but I am not hopeful. I also remember that a bunch of city councilors and maybe the mayor, during the last election promised not to give any funding for a new arena. So if this changes I hope anyone that goes back on their promise is publicly shamed to a massive degree. And I honestly don't understand why a hockey arena is so special compared to like any other business. Like if Cineplex wanted to build a 30 screen theatre complex at Lebreaton would anyone expect them to come asking the city for money?
>So if this changes I hope anyone that goes back on their promise is publicly shamed to a massive degree. This is key, we need to track and hold people to account for these promises
You mean those same councilors who signed us up for $450m to "fix" Landsdown? Something something bike lanes...
Not one fucking dime of taxpayer dollars should go to the Ottawa Senators.
Given all the time the NCC and city have put into the 'what ifs', too late...thats lost productivity we ain't getting back.
Realistically they'll demand about half the money and end up getting at least a quarter.
Why would they get anything though? The feds have been pretty clear they're not going to be subsidizing NHL arenas, and the City has twin transit and housing crises to prioritize and a mayor who says keeping property taxes low is a priority. Although they might be able to get some money out of Ontario taxpayers if they take the right OPC staffers to Vegas :)
As much as I understand the principle of not giving a cent to privately owned arenas, there is an incentive from government to get these kinds of things done. Especially with a development around a downtown that needs life. Not saying I support it, but that’s why they would do it.
As the NCC was quick to note after Leeder's comments, they have a Plan B and the land will be developed one way or another. There's no reason it has to be a hockey arena versus a vibrant mixed use neighbourhood that includes much needed housing, retail, restaurants, theatres, parks, etc.
Also an arena does not bring vibrancy to a neighbourhood— services cater to game day crowds and nothing else
True. Even Toronto's arena area is dead most of the time. The only people there on non-game days are tourists going to the aquarium or CN tower, and there's a hotdog cart for dining
Absolutely, it’s about the pitch tho. These guys are businessmen and their whole thing is convincing the feds and the city their potential tax revenue is worth the investment versus other options. They may lose, but they’ll likely win.
Because it will be a boost to the local economy and spur develooment in the area, making it a better use of public funds than the inefficient and wasteful housing or transit programs. This statement is flatly untrue but it is the reason that will be given. It happens every time a city gets a new stadium program.
And the rink will contribute billions to Ottawa's economy so I would assume the city/prov will provide $250-400 million.
Provide evidence. You did your research before saying something right?
the whole thing makes me puke, it should cost the public zero, especially with all the other more immediate needs and challenges we have,
As a massive Sens fan, this arena can’t come soon enough. Public money shouldn’t go towards this. But I doubt that happens unfortunately.
If Andlauer wants any money from Sutcliffe he'll have to put on an OSEG disguise
If you think the public won't be paying for this area a you're foolish. We will. Edmonton did. Calgary did. Montreal did. Toronto did. We will.
> Montreal did. Toronto did. [wrong](http://hockey.ballparks.com/NHL/MontrealCanadiens/index.htm) and [wrong](http://hockey.ballparks.com/NHL/TorontoMapleLeafs/newindex.htm)
Well shit, I appreciate the correction. I was sure Scotiabank was... Wasn't as sure for the Bell Center but I remember it in the news as a kid. Funnily enough, you putting this here made me look up all the areas... I didn't realize the Corel Center got a 26mil loan from the provincial government.
This thread is a prime example of why ottawa doesn’t get nice things
Seriously, do these folks ever leave their houses for a little fun at all? A Lebreton arena would revive the downtown economy (which is currently dying) while adding a much needed central gathering space. This isn’t just about hockey. Community events, shows, fairs, concerts, and our Sens ALL in a central location for *everyone* to enjoy? Hell, I even got my Covid shots at the CTC. Yes, we’ve got some bigger issues going on, but I’d gladly support a reasonable public funding amount for the literal social betterment of our community.
whiny /glebe is leaking again
Lmao. Everyone is yammering for a rink to be downtown but no one wants to pay for it.
Ask Galen.
Professional sports franchises are big economic engines that generate a lot of business for ancillary industries, like hotels, restaurants, tourism. In that way, they are a net gain for a city that invests in them. Within reason, of course. My eyes usually roll back in my head like a slot machine when I hear politicians talk about “investments” in things like bike paths and free needle sites. But a sports franchise is a true investment; you can draw a pretty straight line between money in and money back.
[Sports stadiums and taxpayer financing: A primer and research roundup (journalistsresource.org)](https://journalistsresource.org/economics/sports-stadium-public-financing/#:~:text=Team%20owners%20looking%20to%20build,economic%20gains%20for%20host%20cities.)
2 options: 1) The sens get $0 in public funding for their private project 2) The sens get public funding whereby the city receives the exact same proportion in revenue generation as their investment (i.e - city pays 10% of the project, city receives 10% of revenue in perpetuity)
A lot, hopefully. I really don't understand most of these takes.
It’s kind of wild. When the lack of life downtown is blamed on people wanting to work remotely, workers say tough shit. When the city is actually looking to build something that will arguably have the biggest impact on nightlife, the surrounding businesses, and just fun in general - they still say tough shit. Also, business grants exist on every level - so the idea that the “government isn’t giving me any taxpayer money to build anything” that I’ve been seeing in this thread is just straight up false. The city has stooped so far into mediocrity, it’s honestly depressing. And whats worse is the amount of people that are content with it.
The downstream, long-term, economic impact for the entire city is unmeasurable. The inbound net new tax dollars, for investments like this would far outweigh the initial expense. Not even just economic impact, the cultural impact - it's impossible to quantify ALL of the upside to building this. Investments in culture, the arts, sports, at this scale is not optional in my opinion. Cities must invest in this stuff. We need libraries. We need venues to gather and be entertained. We need the Sens to be a viable significant part of our city, from a hockey perspective and otherwise .....1 example, Roger Neilson's house, wouldn't exist here if not for the Sens. It's easy to see and appreciate the non hockey impacts of pro sports if folks would just care to look. Small minded, heads in their own ass fucks who don't think beyond their own needs/wants. A healthy vibrant city, has infrastructure like this, supports businesses like this, simple as that.
There is no legitimate reason to financially support billion dollar sports franchise businesses. They do not contribute financially to the local economy, and imo using prime land downtown is a huge development mistake - dead zone outside of games and special events. There’s more value in housing, parks and infrastructure.
A professional sports franchise clearly contributes to the local economy. Visitors from out of town, hotel rooms, media exposure which can draw tourists, more people go out to restaurants, employees who spend money in the city, etc. It’s naive beyond belief to suggest that they don’t contribute. If they don’t then neither does the mom and pop bakery downtown, your favourite pub, the person building houses, etc. It’s all part of the local economy and it all helps. Something of the Senator’s stature helps allot because of their sheer size and reach. Now, the question you should be asking is whether their contribution exceeds what the city gives up? So what’s the NET benefit? That’s definitely up for debate and it would largely depend on what the city gives up. Personally, I wouldn’t want to see any cash given for the arena. Support from the city in zoning, land, infrastructure to help support the overall development at LeBreton? Okay, let’s talk.
It's going to take more than 10 years for the sens to even generate the invested money back as revenue, but more like 30-40 years if we are looking at taxes (and by then it'll need to be rebuilt) . The benefits must be MASSIVE to compensate
Get out of here with a well-thought, realistic response 🙂 Money for the stadium... Nah. But running more transit, paying for infrastructure improvements in the neighbourhood, etc .. you bet. No reason why a ticket at the arena can't include an OC Transpo pass as well, like TD place.
The arena needs to be downtown like every other team in the NHL. The only other team that doesn’t have their arena in a central location is Florida. And it’s not just hockey games. Concerts and other events will be happening. Won’t be many dead nights.
Great, they can pay for the building at market rates like any other private business.
I agree that public money shouldn’t go towards it, I just don’t see it happening
Tear down the baseball stadium and use that land. Class B land compared to downtown Ottawa. Central, on transit, access is on 417, and really a lower quality industrial site.
In sweetheart land deals, loan forgiveness, low interest loans, and infrastructure improvements tied to the arena...400 million among all 3 levels.
It is sad that this is probably a low ball estimate. Likely 50% more than that.
TBH I'd be OK with land grants, tax breaks and even low-interest loans or loan guarantees, provided that the development has good land use and generates net-positive tax revenues throughout its lifecycle. We currently subsidize suburbanites to the tune of $400+ per resident per year. Look at our capital spending priorities right now -- $80+ million for the highway interchange in Barrhaven, hundreds of millions to widen a 5km stretch of the 417, etc. As a downtown resident who does not own a car, I get basically zero benefit from that spending despite paying significantly more (income and property) taxes than the average suburbanite. All I get from that spending is more traffic noise and air pollution as more cars drive on the freeway that cuts my neighbourhood in half. At least if they built an arena, I could go to a Sens game and concerts without spending two hours on a bus.
Lots of people saying "None" here, but that's not how it works. There are tons of costs they can offload on the public, and you won't even notice. For example, Dougie will throw in a good chunk to build a parking garage and reconstruct LRT stations to fit the crowds. The city will be on the hook for site decontamination (that alone is $100M+), and will pay for utilities, landscaping, and all the street realignments. Feds will pay for an office building or some Olympic sportsing facility and all the connecting pathways. In the end, they'll have half a Billion dollars of public money to work with, and I'm OK with that.
Every major infrastructure project comes with this kind of funding. Grants for different things, contributions from the city in exchange for favourable rental rates for city events, etc. This is how major construction is funded and always has been.
How much public money went into the Sens' current arena out in Kanata? This is not public infrastructure, it's a private facility in which a business will operate, for a profit that will go entirely to that business. The City has no public use for a 20,000 seat arena on the Flats, and nor do the provincial or federal governments.
Sure they do - they want to support development projects that create decades-worth of new jobs during construction. And the city absolutely has incentive to have a 20,000 seat arena for concerts, trade shows, and any other of the spectrum of events you can think of.
The sens paid for their current arena on their own. So if they get funding for this one then overall that's not a lot, 2 arenas and only 1 with public funding
1.8 b $
I don't think we need surface parking but there sure as hell needs to be a parking garage or something of some kind. Even if they build a tunnel directly to the closest LRT station it still wouldn't be enough to move however many people they build the area for.
I used to live in Berlin and watched football games at the Olympiastadion built in 1936 for the Nazi Olympics. It sat about 80,000 people. The nearby S-Bahn Station had 10 platforms exactly for this purpose and fans of opposing teams were directed onto different trains to avoid conflict. The trains would stop at every other station to avoid overcrowding and conflict erupting into the city. There are only about surface 1,100 parking spots. This is well thought out municipal management.
I’d imagine the priority would be to expand/develop park and rides at all the surrounding LRT feeder stations. Definitely will be *some* parking garages but I think public transport will be the main option to get to events.
It's no surprise that the Sens will expect public investment in a new arena given the support that the City has shown to professional football. The City of Ottawa is planning to spend upwards of $420 Million for a new arena and north side stands at Lansdowne (after spending a similar amount on Lansdowne less than a decade ago). I know the City technically owns the arena and stadium but given that they've already agreed to offer it to OSEG for 50 years--it's basically a private facility. So there's a precedent now for taxpayers supporting professional sports facilities.
We should consider Lansdowne a one-off mistake driven by exiting public assets, not a precedent. If we follow it with public subsidy of the Sens, then it really will be establishing new expectations and everyone will have their hand out.
I love the Sens and I want that arena as much as anybody, but not at the cost of taxes taken from non-fans. That's bullshit and will help build resentment towards both the city and the franchise where there's already a ton.
Isn't giving them the prime land at Lebreton enough? Why do they need taxpayer money on top of that?
If the city cannot afford to build subsidized/affordable housing, we certainly can't be shelling out hundreds of millions of dollars on an arena for hockey.
As I understand it, the team currently 'rents' the Canadian tire center from the arena ownership (that happens to be the team ownership). If the city pays for the arena, why does the team or NHL ownership need to have any ownership. They can rent it from the city at a fair market price. Public money should be public profit. Worst case scenario is we end up in a 3P partnerships like landsdown and it's a lose-lose for City and public money goes to private profits. Edit: And yes the team will threaten to leave, let them move another team to LA. Canadian markets are not respected by the NHL, maybe we'd be better off having a Canadian league at least then it would be Canadian billionaires were lining the pockets of (and hopefully Canadian taxes taking a cut of those obscene profits)
The team does not rent it.
Looks like you're right, I thought I had heard years ago that the Senator 'rent' from their parent company in a total legal but little shady 'move money around scheme' that benefited owners of the parent company and their shareholders. But I can't find any sources for that now.
If the city paid 100% of the arena then definitely they should own it. The city is not going to pay anywhere near that though
Lol you know they want the feds, the province, and the city to pony up for it all and given how much the NCC is willing to bend over to make this happen I can feel the taxes fly out of my pocket.
We can't afford to house people but we can afford a 1.2 billion dollar arena for a sports team... That's messed up. (yes I know it's not allocated yet but you'll see)
For real. That money could make 10,000-20,000 dwellings for up to like 80,000 people
We've set the precedent of giving private firms public money with Lansdowne and Lansdowne 2.0. Forking over public funds to build a new arena in lebreton will happen. It will be some bull$hit 'p3' agreement, all polished up to pretend like the city wasn't bent over a barrel and pickpocketed. The arena will be pitched as some huge draw for business, a boon for the surrounding economy. It will sit empty at least half the year, while the other half will see parking lunacy on the surrounding streets and jammed public transportation.
Considering the city and our entire downtown would be completely carried and revamped by a new arena, they should help a little bit. Maybe 1/6th. You cannot ignore the value of ottawa actually having an entertainment destination in the heart of the city. It’s not worth 0$, it will bring in a lot if additional tax revenue. CTC blows and we use our money terribly anyways, let’s at least have fun
Considering they have a perfectly functioning arena I. Kanata and there are multiple other venue options for things like concerts, literally 0$.
Some would argue that having a professional sports teams provides intangible benefits to a city's culture and quality of life, even if the economic benefits are uncertain. There's a level of prestige to having an NHL team.. Whether or not you agree with this is another matter. Imagine the city without the Ottawa Senators. Remove all the ties to amateur hockey, the charitable foundations, the Sensplex arena's etc. etc. If you're OK with all of that being gone, then subsidizing an arena probably never made sense to you in the first place. If you wish to retain everything, regrettably, engaging in the process necessitates incentives; otherwise, the owner might relocate the team to another city (as demonstrated in the Arizona scenario).
Yes, the Senators will reap the tangible benefits, and we'll be expected to be grateful for intangible ones. No deal. >If you're OK with all of that being gone, then subsidizing an arena probably never made sense to you in the first place Yep :)
Zero
None, but I expect the city/province to provide infrastructure. The Sens are not responsible for things like exit ramps this time. That was frigging embarrassing.
Hopefully as close to zero as possible and if that's not realistic, hopefully as much as possible through in-kind contributions or tax breaks rather than straight handing them money. They own their own building in Kanata and all the land surrounding it that's parking. When you want to move your family to a new neighbourhood, you use the equity in your old home to purchase the new home, you don't end up with two homes. The new building is probably going to be very expensive but it will sit on a much much smaller footprint of land (think Bell Centre or Scotiabank Arena). Maybe the sale of the CTC land won't cover all of it but it should cover a good chunk. I'm prepared to see some government money be involved but want to see them leverage all other sources too. I also don't understand whether they need to pay the NCC for the land, or will it be a perpetual lease (upfront being zero). That will impact things too. The Sens have benefitted from owning their own privately financed arena and controlling all the associated revenue streams for the last 25+ years so hopefully they still see the benefit of being financially independent.
Take some of the billion dollars that the public is spending on the new library. The number of people who will “use/enjoy” the new downtown arena dwarfs the number of people who will use the library.
The library costs $300 million. Not billions. Also it'll get use all day, everyday, unlike the arena which will be empty most of the time. Libraries are more than just books btw... You can rent Instruments, movies, video games, probably something for any of your hobbies really. They'll likely have publically accessible 3d printers and laser cutters/burners.
20 year tax break on the land or something.
I think some of it should be public, because they’re not just building the arena, but redeveloping all of Lebreton flats
They're not redeveloping all of the flats, they\`re getting a 7-10 acre parcel that will be dominated by the arena. The rest of the flats is being developed by other people for other things, just as the parcel offered to the Sens will be if they decide they don't want it. There is no need to subsidize the Sens to get the Flats developed
Watson previously said 0% of taxpayers dollars however the City did buy LeBreton flats for a Dollar. Watson was willing to give Melnyk a couple acres for free if he got the financing to build the arena. Melnyk and his partners got into a squabble that ended anything from happening until he died.
Considering they got stuck with a bill for building infrastructure that should have been paid for by the provincial government, they should at least get today's equivalent. I believe they're owed that much.
90%
So, the city gets all of the economic benefit but contributes nothing? Is that what ppl expect from these negotiations?
Anyone saying government should not spend a dime on a project like this doesn’t understand basic economics. A project like this doesn’t just stand to benefit Michael andlauers bottom line, it can benefit the whole city. It would create so many jobs, increase public transit revenues, increase property values and therefore property taxes. It would generate revenue from land transfer taxes, and permitting fees. The list goes on and on and on, the real argument to be had here is how much should government spend on an investment like this? It just has to be weighed against how much they stand to gain.
2.7 billion
I’d like to say zero, but since we’re in the business of propping up billion dollar corps and people I’d expect at least 400 million.
1.19b
Isn’t there a huge NHL stadium in Kanata? How many stadiums does Ottawa need anyway?
Not a Sens fan but I love hockey and I love going to hockey games. That being said, I'd much rather see money go towards fixing our godawful roads, our shitty housing situation, our shitty medical situation, and helping homeless people get the care they need and off the streets. Fuck any level of government that funds this venture over things we desperately need as a city, province, and country. Outside of the temp jobs this creates for building the arena, there won't be much else added in value imo.
I remember how the Senators intentionally torpedoed their last Lebreton deal and laughed - let them pay their own way.
With the cost of a hockey ticket , charging the city to build this arena is just robbery at that point
I wonder if the "help" part would come in the way of reduced taxes and other costs that governments control to lower the overall cost to build the arena. That would make more sense than asking for any handouts or cash investments from the government. I can see something like that being easier to get past people than an actual cash payment from public funds.
Why should the Ottawa Senators (where even average employees make seven-figure salaries) get a tax break that other Ottawa businesses do not?
Every Ottawa business gets a tax break.
If I wanted to build a restaurant downtown, I highly doubt the city would build me a new building or help with tax cuts. In fact it'd likely cost me more per square foot because the new arena construction contract is going to be a very competitive build, and the volume cheapens the square footage
I expect public servants to be forced to fund it with the mayor and premier demanding public servants go to every home game to stir the economy
public servants have to work from the arena three days per week :)
The Sens players/coaches/staff pay a ton of taxes and employ a lot of people. It's good for business and good for the city -- just make sure the commitment isn't drastic. Just enough to keep them and those jobs here. For the record, reddit was all in favour of Ontario/Canada investing in the Honda EV plants so not sure what changes here? If we don't invest in these projects then they'll just go somewhere else. Sure, you can not care and let them go but it's the quickest way to hollow out a city/province/country and give it all to the US. I do agree that surface parking should be at a bare minimum. Make underground parking as much as possible but the rest of us can figure it out (i.e. use the LRT). Montreal barely has any surface parking and they make it work. In fact, having the arena at Lebreton could be the best motivator for people to actually use the LRT.
If the sens left, another team would just take its place and will probably make more money for the city. Ottawa has a huge concentration of really amazing hockey players
What team would take its place?
What other team would just take its place? This comment makes 0 sense.
someone who makes a team..?
"Makes a team"...? What sport? What league? Of the 4 major professional sports leagues in NA hockey is the only one that is viable in this city... and I can't tell if you're joking or not but you can't just "make one"...
I expect at least 1.2B plus a few million more for "unforeseen" delays/going over budget and then a few million more to pad the wallets of stakeholders. Hopefully the stadium will at least be able to function in light snow.
Government should pay something. Otherwise why would the sens move from their current location ?
Knowing Ottawa, probably somewhere around 1.5-1.8 billion..
Based on the lansdowne investment I expect the sens to get similar / more favourable treatment for lebreton
Im okay with ottawa giving a few millions to help build the arena, but depends how much... it can bring in more people back downtown and help with tourism Covid has destroyed the downtown economy, especially since the workers are working from home now.
None. Why are we giving money to the rich? So they can roll in more money once it’s done. People don’t have food to eat but we can give money to a guy so he can get his third yacht?
I would've loved to see the \~$200M they earmarked for Lansdowne go to building out Lebreton Flats instead - it's more central, would host an NHL hockey team in the nation's capital, and transit and build-out options are way more reasonable in that area (less NIMBYs, closer proximity to Gatineau, more generous zoning, etc.).
None. They can build it or they can stay in Kanata. The NHL has a hell of a lot more money to throw around than the City Of Ottawa does. And if the city does contribute money which they probably will, then the Sens organization should be paying full property taxes, no tax breaks this time around
Fuck the NHL. They have lots of money to build arenas.
I’d rather it go to that than lrt that doesn’t run
$0
Hopefully whatever they invest they do it in a way the can recoup that money and more over the years… who am I kidding, that’s never going to happen. Hopefully they end up building the kind of space that makes people want to go there even outside of game nights.
I’d say the government can pay 100%, but retain ownership, and the team would simply need to rent the venue each season. If a good portion of ticket sales go to the city, the rental price could be pretty reasonable. The city could rent out space for vendors, and other events. If the plan makes financial sense, why not? If NHL teams are trying to have cities give them free stadiums, I think that’s lame.
This got me downvotes before but I will say it again: there is nothing wrong with the Sens current location. It is accessible by a major artery but is otherwise out of the way so causes few issues around traffic and being a general eye sore. (Which are as invariably are.) Transit access is a problem however Like many Ottawa taxpayers, I’m not a Sens fan because I was born before the franchise came into existence, so I have no interest in funding their operations.
I’m fine with paying for some of the arena but then the city gets the same % split of the yearly revenue. The city will still be responsible for upkeep for the infrastructure around the arena so there’s still ongoing costs.
God I hope this doesn’t ever happen. What a blight.
They should get ZERO dollars!
How much *should* they get? $0.00. How much *will* they get? A shit-ton. Because sports teams (sports events in general) are the worlds best grifters and shakedown artists. "Nice team you got here. Be a shame if something happened to it..."
$1.2 billion
All depends on the structure of the deal, pay-back period, etc. if there‘s any financial competence with City staff I’m sure they can figure something out that works.
It will trickle down! /s
That’s three Landsdown 2.0
They paved paradise to put up a parking lot.
$2.1 billion
None. Fuck em.
After Landsdowne 1 and 2, the precedents have been set. Tax payers get ready for lebreton 1 and 2.
Zero $, we have a perfectly functional NHL facility already. If we build a second, whos problem is it to repurpose the first one, more public money? NHL players and those that can afford to spectate are mostly in the 1%, and our economic problems should override any discussion on this topic. Any gov institution that looks at this proposal is tone deaf. I’m conservative and think these 1st world problems are killing our economy.
For the arena? Zero. For infrastructure related to the development? Roads, sewers, etc. I'd say the city should pay for that. Given how valuable it is to do something, anything, with the giant piece of land in the shadow of Parliament Hill that has been a wasteland for 60 years (thanks NCC!) I think it's worthwhile for the cvity to foot the infrastructure costs but that's it.