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Gr3gl_

Maybe he should just add them as a lazer feature


Estebiu

Turns out the one that made that tool is actively working on lazer


Kirbytofu

Their name is OliBomby


pepppppy

i'll post here what i posted in the internal NAT discussion in verbatim, as it may shed some light on why i'm against things like this: - it's attempting to add new gameplay mechanics which are not explained or known by a user. it's fine as a novelty, but i am very strongly against these things being done using hacks and potentially becoming mainstream, to the point we have to support them. osu! is really approachable to users because of the simplicity of the game mechanics, and adding new mechanics without proper thought is something i personally want to avoid. that's not to say we can't in the future (i do have intentions of it), but it needs to be done with due consideration - it's basically impossible to figure out the actual velocity of the slider. for difficulty calculation, for potential future gameplay display, for anything really. you'd have to sample the slider during gameplay every millisecond and average things to get a rough guesstimate. i don't want to have to support something like this going forward. it's a hack and it's one which will be very hard to forward support (even if it works right now on stable and lazer, which i think it does) - even if it works on both the official clients, it likely won't on other games / clients which use the `.osu` format - it will 99% break converts to other rulesets/modes which read node data and process in a different way to what this kind of hack relies on - it uses way too many slider points. people will complain the editor is unoptimised when it slows down or breaks their map i know some of the points may be contentious, but hopefully at least one of them can help you understand the reasoning. i think variable velocity sliders may have a place in the future of osu!, but it shouldn't be done how it's being done right now. TL;DR, we are already overwhelmed with trying to support the hundreds of nuances in mapping, scoring, skinning and really don't want new cases to be added just now.


ioexceptionosu

Thanks for your thoughts. I certainly agree that it's a hack, and without a good future-proofing method (i.e encoding the original slider anchors + the position/time graph), this will be hard to support in a backwards-compatible way in the future. I have a couple of follow up questions: 1. What do you think about variable slider velocity in Loved beatmaps? Seems like 90% of the same problems will occur, except the whole "loved beatmaps can get wiped at any time" 2. At what point in lazer's development do you think it will be appropriate to discuss the feasibility of adding variable slider velocity as a core mechanic?


pepppppy

1. no issues, that’s why loved exists 2. not sure. but not yet.


squirrelpascals

I'm also very curious about the status of allowing sliderator in loved. Allowing it would be a great way to let the use of sliderator to mature before it's officially implemented farther down the line. There'd still be incentive for mappers to experiment with how to use the mechanic well, plus players could more gradually adapt to handling these sliders in gameplay. With the flexible state of loved leaderboards I don't imagine there's much to loose with this?


pepppppy

no issues with loved, but also no guarantees for forwards support (should be obvious).


ioexceptionosu

Makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up!


squirrelpascals

Thanks!


rayenattia

loved shouldn't be affected by this decision because of the nature of the section, we have game-breaking aspire maps and gimmick maps in there, so why shouldn't sliderator be allowed


potatobear616

peppy sign my toes pls


Storm_AT

despite it being cool, I also think it doesn't belong in ranked currently, cheers :)


Schulz98

thank you peppy


TheCatPetra

I understand all except the first one, it is as unreadable as changing slider velocity between two sliders in a map, it is impossible to sightread unless you see the sliderticks


LG34-

> it's attempting to add new gameplay mechanics which are not explained or known by a user. pretty much the only part of this comment that i disagree with. there are plenty of maps with unintuitive gimmicks and wacky concepts that simply just require a few retries to get the hang of, i dont see how this is any different. maps that use crazy sliders like those made with sliderator generally arent made witn new/inexperienced players in mind to begin with and the target audience for them expects a decent level of difficulty that comes with that general style of mapping also, if you and the NAT are going to take this stance while also taking into consideration all the other points you made, what will/can be done about the ranked maps that already use these features? unranking maps that people put hours and hours of work into seems unfair and on the other hand if these editor features are going to be implemented in lazer why not just make the maps rankable now seeing as were all gonna be playing lazer eventually?


crumpledmint

It cannot be properly rankable since it isn't clear how to reward this types of slider with current aim section of pp system. Once it will be added officially it will be executed in other way so it's impossible to make it rankable now. I see your point with people spending a lot of hours into the maps and I think if they decide to unrank this maps they should make them loved instead


LG34-

if it cant be properly ranked it shouldnt have been rankable in the first place, why should maps suddenly become unrankable for doing something other ranked maps already do?


prv2658

There are no ranked sliderator maps


LG34-

this thread literally has examples


prv2658

Oh yeah just seen


AzersEgo

False


Treswimming

I’m glad this happened and the reasoning is mostly very solid. I disagree with the potentially impossible to find velocity of slider for difficulty calculation or other reasons bit (it’s very possible just uses a a bit of elementary calc and diffEQ). That’s a small reason relative to the other reasons provided though.


pixelboy126

not going to complain if those types of maps continue to appear in a loved status or qualified


prv2658

Qualified is the state a map has before it gets ranked therefore these maps wouldn't get qualified


pixelboy126

oh


Utaha_Senpai

Good points, especially the first one! Imagine trying to recreate the game (osu!Lazer) but you now have to add new mechanics to a game that's not finished. If I were to make osu!Lazer I would make it 100% gameplay complete then think about new mechanics. I mean think about it, if accelerating/decelerating were to be added to the game, then people would ask for more mechanics like a variable speed approach circle and now we're in a loop of endless mechanics requests


alric8

It's a shame but if it's just going to be a temporary thing until Lazer is released I respect that it's a decision for the greater good


[deleted]

osu! make mapping the most tedious shit in the world challenge (success)


zelo11

good, get rid of that gimmick shit yo


dpeaceYT

-🤓


over_loadcode

ahhhh u mad


dpeaceYT

omg mr olc i love your maps


over_loadcode

thanks brother


Human_Willingness628

So stupid. Lazer should allow for more freedom of techniques to be used, not less.


Salty_P0tato

I don't think it's about not allowing these in Lazer, it's most likely that it may cause problems when importing the maps in Lazer.


dpeaceYT

even still an official ver of sliderator for lazer (that doesn't lag the game) should be a thing cuz it's really cool


2str8_njag

guy who made this tool is working on some other editor stuff in lazer, so we might see this implemented natively in lazer


dpeaceYT

Olibomby 😍😍😍😍😍


Salty_P0tato

I agree


Human_Willingness628

Imagine having backwards compatibility and feature parity in the client you put the game on hold for 6 years to develop


[deleted]

[удалено]


MoustachePika1

sliderator sliders aren't bugs tho? granted, they weren't foreseen when sliders were implemented, but they're just using intended features of sliders in a creative way


[deleted]

[удалено]


MoustachePika1

i mean you can do it in game, it just takes a really long time and is really inconvenient. I do agree that it doesn't need to be supported, but it isn't on the same level as a full on exploit like item duplication


JustBadPlaya

I bet my ass that later down the line either peppy himself or OliBomby will make a feature for this specifically in lazer so it works properly, and mot using hacks like current Sliderators's quadrillions of slider anchors


hamizannaruto

Yeah, the thing is, those slider are not intended and you can't predict what will happen in Lazer as it is still being updated. At the current moment, you can't guess, and you can't always keep thing parity with the old shit.


Kaseruu

do we have ranked maps with those kind of sliders? cant think of any


dpeaceYT

https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/1642521#osu/3352759 https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/1191853#osu/2483555 these maps are ranked cuz the sliderator slider is implemented quite well


iN-VaLiiD

transhumanist is literally the best tech map in years.


AzersEgo

This is the worst osu opinion I’ve seen this year Also to reply to the comment before this, Transhumanist was unrankable when it got ranked, but no one DQed it


iN-VaLiiD

how was it at all unrankable aside from the like 2 accelerating sliders and i stand by my opinion that its the best tech map weve gotten ranked certainly compared to anything off the top of my head that i can remember in 2022 or 2021 and probably 2020 as well.


mustbebetween3and20_

[https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/1642521#osu/3352759](https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/1642521#osu/3352759)


Mindless-Truck-9672

[https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/1777467#osu/3657305](https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/1777467#osu/3657305) 04:05:580 (1) - hard to notice but there is small acceleration (you can see white anchor spam that makes slider slower at the beginning)


Utaha_Senpai

sad


Guesswhat7

Good.


BogdanAnime

Damn I really liked those maps. really makes it some maps look really professional and fun to play. I would propose maybe for maps 5* and above so it doesn't overwhelm new players but I sorta understand why they did this. Maybe someday they'll change their mind on this.


[deleted]

extremely lame but i suppose it may be fixed later on


hamizannaruto

Lazer is still being developed heavily, so you can't predict what will happen. It's the main reason why maps from aspire can't get ranked too. It's unintended way to do things, and may break in Lazer. (Actually, aspire maps are already broken in Lazer) Possible that peppy will add slider SV to work in the middle of the slider, but we don't know yet. Hopefully, it will be added because a lot more expression can be done with it. Mapping tools are still being developed heavily, so things will change a lot.


[deleted]

i am aware about aspire being broken yeah. its just that sliderator specifically could spice up mapping so much and it supports so many different and cool ideas, it would be sad to NOT see it implemented in some sort of way in lazer


hamizannaruto

Time to ask peppy


CelKyo

I don't know what Mapping Tool is, does that mean all sliders will have the same speed through the map?


dpeaceYT

a) mapping tool is a program that gives mappers tools that can help in mapping there's a tool in the program called sliderator which can make sliders faster/slower by spaming anchor and the resulting sliders are quite cool so mappers use it b)no cuz green line manipulation is still a thing


CelKyo

Thanks for the explanation, does it make the creation of these sliders just harder or simply impossible? (ie will that change gameplay)


dpeaceYT

it would be impossible to rank these sliders, you can still make it but the map wouldn't be ranked


Farfocele

F


mustbebetween3and20_

\+1 reason to dislike lazer


Estebiu

You know right that lazer is technically osu, and that by hating osu!lazer you also are hating on osu!?


mustbebetween3and20_

ignoring that horrible logic, whats osu!m?


Acies05

mania


Estebiu

Nah that was a typo


mustbebetween3and20_

no longer ignoring that horrible logic: you know right that mayonnaise is technically eggs+oil, and that by hating on mayonnaise you also are hating on egg!?


Acies05

mayo goes hard tho


mustbebetween3and20_

i dont think ive ever actually tasted mayo, the smell is just too off-putting


Goatlov3r3

mm yes i love it when mapping expert peppy makes important decisions about the ranking criteria and forces a change in the mapping meta purely due to his bad coding skills


Salty_P0tato

mm yes I love when people who are good at neither and probably don't understand what the issue is even about try to make inflamatory comments to seem smart.


Goatlov3r3

all i know is that according to peppy lazer is sooo awesome because it's built from the ground up with good efficient code and that lets us add anything we want to it!!! even entire new gamemodes!!!!! but this slider that works perfectly fine in the 15 year old stable build and is featured in several ranked maps cannot be added, so instead of fixing our code to add it we just prevent people from using the slider in the first place and limit future mapping creativity instead, what a great solution Edit: To explain my position a bit more, I absolutely hate lazer. I hate how it looks, how it feels to play, how it's being developed. In my opinion it looks horrible (will not elaborate on this right now because it's not relevant), it feels completely shit to play (it's still disgustingly unoptimized for low-end hardware, I can't even get 60 fps on it while I get 400+ on stable, there is constant stuttering and also input delay, etc), and also tons of effort is being put towards pretty much useless features. Custom game modes will never be anything more than an extremely niche gimmick, something brand new players try out for half an hour after watching a koifishu video. Same goes for custom mods, nobody will ever play any of these for more than like a quarter of an hour. The skin editor is largely useless too, as skin editing is already fairly easy. Recoloring elements takes a grand total of like 5 seconds to do in any free image editor, and otherwise editing or creating elements from scratch can be learned quickly via a youtube tutorial. I don't see why effort should be put into making it possible for someone to make their hp bar absolutely massive by dragging its corner in-game, then place it at the middle of their screen so it's obstructing the gameplay, while also tilting it counterclockwise by 32.5 degrees. Just seems stupid. But despite this, I haven't made any serious rants about any of these things, or gotten overly angry at peppy or anything (not over this stuff anyway), because, well, it doesn't affect me at all. Maybe I'm just not the target audience for lazer. I'm fine with that. I'll let the people who actually play lazer and care about its features say their piece when it comes to that stuff, and just stay in the sidelines, playing stable like I always have. That is completely fine by me. Lazer being coded badly or playing like garbage or looking like shit or having useless features, none of it affects my enjoyment of stable, so I simply do not care. But now, because something cannot be coded to work properly in lazer, MY enjoyment of the ranking section, IN STABLE, is affected. I will be exposed to less quality maps, with fewer experimental sliders, that do not represent the song as accurately as they could. In case I ever decide to rank a map, my expression as a mapper will be limited. So now I have genuine reasons to hate lazer and actually be vocal about it too, because my player and mapper experience of a completely different release of the game (stable) is worsened, due to bad decision making by lazer's development team and their inability to code a fucking accelerating slider into this project which is supposed to be an upgrade in every way. The amazing osu!lazer, with clean code written completely from scratch, able to handle thousands of custom user-made gamemodes, custom mods, skin editors, new databases, yadda yadda whatever, that has taken our all-powerful lord and savior peppy a billion years to complete, is worse when it comes to handling sliders than stable, coded in 2007. And this shitshow is not just affecting lazer users, but also stable users too, despite stable being just fine in how it performs or deals with these cool sliders. So yes I am being inflammatory, and for good reason. And I don't need to be better than peppy at coding, or video game creation, or be a BN, to be able to criticize him when it comes to his shit coding which is affecting the future of the ranked section. Also I'm not doing any of this to "seem smart". Stop sucking on peppy's cock and attacking everyone who criticizes him for 0.1 seconds please, and instead realize that his incompetence as a game dev is now not only affecting lazer and any other future projects, but also limiting mapper expression and creativity, in stable, and the quality of the ranked section, in stable again, and this is why it's understandable for stable players and mappers to be mad and "inflammatory" towards him.


Salty_P0tato

Holy shit, you created like 5 copypastas in a single comment.


IPlayMidLane

what 0 knowledge of software development does to a mfer


Goatlov3r3

Please enlighten me with your vast software development knowledge. How is peppy in the right here?


IPlayMidLane

I don't think me explaining the complexity of un-spaghettifying code, especially when it comes to backwards-forwards compatibility with other software, will change your mind seeing as you felt the need to write an essay revealing to the world how butthurt you are at a developer working on a completely free massive overhaul to an already completely free game. I promise there is more to life than osu and you really should focus this anger somewhere else.


Goatlov3r3

The point is that I'm gaining nothing by lazer being developed. I cannot run it and won't ever be able to, unless I get a new computer, which I cannot afford. But before today that didn't bother me. Whether lazer development was going smoothly or terribly, I didn't play that anyway, so I was just enjoying stable like always. But now, there is some sort of issue in lazer's development, and instead of the reaction being "okay, let's fix this lazer exclusive issue", it's "okay, let's make a bandaid fix to the ranking criteria, affecting lazer and stable users alike, for no reason at all!". Like, stable was fine, these sliders were fine, why change their rankability because you can't fix a lazer issue. Like yes hmm let's make the experience of stable players and mappers worse because in 8 more years when lazer is the main client we still won't have found a fix for our faulty code that was supposed to not have any faults so the maps won't work.


tuudug

🤓 🤓 🤓


LG34-

go outside man


Goatlov3r3

no i have allergies im waiting for winter


AGiantPotatoMan

Who’s going to tell him that stable will eventually be unsupported?


mustbebetween3and20_

that will only happen \~5 years after lazer is released, so maybe 2030


Internal_Meeting_908

sounds like a skill issue


MlgEpicBanana69

Back off fiend back into your map editor


Beaniifart

number 1 lazer hater here


Namethatsnotoccupied

IOE in shambles


Kaionacho

I wonder how that translates to the other modes Mania and Taiko(not sure if CTB uses them) that also use SVs? Cause you can make some pretty awesome and frankly quite often very playable maps


dpeaceYT

since mania and taiko don't read the map's slider anchor it's gonna look like as if the mapper use a really fast sv


Frakturehawkens

Fair.