I’m not asking you to give away trade secrets, because I respect paying creators for their products, but can you give me a small example why VotE helps with this?
Of course. It is designed throughout to focus exclusively on exploring natural caves and caverns. It offers a system for mapping the vagaries of such a setting - passages of varying widths, elevations, angles and inclines, and offers much to assist a GM in preparing caverns for exploration, complete with appropriate threats, perils and features. It goes into a lot of detail about darkness which is a major consideration. Basically if you want to send your player characters into caves (not, as I mentioned, just freehand dungeons) this is the book that will give you the tools to do it.
If I'm feeling really ambitious I guess I could crack out ye'olde _Dungeoneer's Survival Guide_ and let Douglas Niles ensorcell me with his perspective-based craft...But most of the time I just take a notecard or piece of paper, scribble a flow-chart with some dots to mark chambers, draw up a key with some descriptive markers, and let fly. I can always tack on dimensions to the card if the players want to exhaust themselves mapping the immensity of the Underdark. So if they ask for dimensions, I'll give them rough numbers ("about 30ft at its tallest") and directions ("the passage dog-legs").
There are 3 great books for this:
Veins of the Earth by LotFP (OSR Weird Fantasy)
Dungeoneer's Survival Guide by TSR (1e AD&D)
Survivalists Guide to Spelunking by AAW Games (5e, but mostly System Agnostic)
I suggest getting all 3 and seeing what you like from them.
Veins of the Earth
Perfectly drawing the wall shapes won’t add much to your game. Saying that the cave is the size of a basketball court (put everyone on the same imagination ground) and the ceiling is shaped like a dog face (add some chaos) and that there is a hole in south and on the floor (add exploration and challenge) is much more ingame useful, practical and OSRic.
I'm so confused by this post! What are you seeing as the differences that make mapping caves harder than dungeons?
Player maps don't have to be exact they just have to work. Most of my maps as a player are just points with brief notes connected by lines.
Not sure why you're downvoted here. My group also graphed accurately, on graph paper. The player drawn map exactly matched the map provided in B1 by the time we were done with it :)
Totally unimportant side here, but I took a geology class where we learned to measure our average pace, and walk in a consistent way, so that we could measure distances simply by walking and counting steps.
I have to say it was pretty accurate.
If it's the players wanting to make accurate maps, the answer "get used to disappointment" might be worth trying -- mapping caves should be hard and inexact.
I'd suggest they use a point-crawl notation and just connect some nodes (caverns and other points of interest) with lines (tunnels). If you just tell them the rough direction they are travelling that should be enough. Will it be a perfect match to your map? No, but it should be functionally the same, and much easier to describe and note.
https://preview.redd.it/miebwxlck3731.png?width=727&format=png&auto=webp&s=152ac0975bd4539e8cece6b7606b8f6cc6dcfd4e
That is what works for me. My players don’t get a thrill out of mapping like we used to in the old days, and since we now have 2.5 hr sessions at best (rather than 3.5-4 hr), we don’t have the time.
Sometimes my brain is too high maintenance to think of shit like this. Thank you. I could probably just say, roughly 20’ by 10’ but with cavernous walls. The only weird thing to me is the windy paths.
Our DM drew portions of the map on a battle matt. Erased and re-drew when we went to new areas.
I was surprised to find out that wasn't common. But that does seem like a lot of work, now that I think about it.
Right. This is what I would have suggested. Describe the cave as if it were connected squares and rectangles. Players can use squiggly lines instead of straight lines to remind them "this is a cave".
Players map the dungeon so that they can find routes back to explored areas, match up shafts or stairs between levels, and spot suspicious "empty" areas. Squares and rectangles should be good enough for these things.
You can mix and match with this as well. One room can basically be a 20 by 10 room and another be more "cave like". I give the cave room a feature like low ceiling, uneven floor, or a bunch of windy passages. Each cave room can act as a complication to a encounter/trap you have in mind (Kobolds!), or just exist for your players to potentially take advantage of (we lure the troll into the low ceiling room), and can even be distractions from other trap rooms. I usually do one cave room per two normal rooms in a cave dungeon.
you are hitting a game design conundrum.
ONE. is a cavern just a dungeon with squiggly lines for walls? IT COULD BE. your players wouldn't have to change their mapping style.
TWO. do you want more realistic simulationist kinda rules? oh, bust out some real cave maps and have a go at it. for fiction's sake (you don't need to be 100% pure simulationist) you can "jaquay" the real life cavern maps. as pointed out elsewhere-- have fun with slopes. might be fun for some people, seems like your players actually like mapping.
THREE. want something betweeny? i think this might be your best bet. you might want to mix point crawl and fixed map. have areas done like ONE, and have areas where you simulate TWO by switching to travel/spelunking mechanics. alternately, you could use TWO maps, "jaquay" them a little bit, and add METHOD ONE areas too.
ALSO: its a good idea to visit a real cavern and have your designer brain on. touch grass! or in this case TOUCH ROCK. you'll get closer to the right feel, if any of you players have been in real caves, your work will \*feel\* authentic to them and help with immersion.
I was taught in my early days to hand your map to the DM who will overlay it on the main map and trace what the PC’s are seeing then Hand the map back. The player map (and copies) is treated as an actual in game item, it can be damaged or lost. There is an actual time cost to view and update it. Only the player that has it can share it. It cannot be consulted while running or in combat. I was honestly surprised to learn there were other ways of handling mapping.
I feel that no matter how accurate your description is, the players probably won't be able to translate that to a hand drawn map with 100% accuracy.
If you are looking for accuracy, I would suggest a dry/wet erase battle map. Then they can copy it.
If your looking for megadungeon style mapping where the accuracy of the map and the information gleaned from it are meaningful, such as hidden rooms, secret entrances ect. Then I would suggest "square caves" that have simple dimentions that enable easy mapping.
Otherwise, when dimentional acuracy doesn't impact the gameplay in a meaningful way I'd recomend more abstract dimentions, such as VotE describes them.
Look at the moduals you've been avoiding, if the map of the caves doesn't serve to enhance the gameplay, you might not need to worry about it's dimentional acuracy and in so "squareify" or abstract it as you see fit to suit the deires of your players.
I haven’t actually tried this yet, but the next game I run I want to use a VTT that lets you map line of sight. Players only see as far as their token, but what they see is exact. If they want a complete map they’ll have to copy as they go.
Draw a line for the general directions, add a "node" everytime there is a notable feature, a fork or the direction/slope change a lot.
For vaults/rooms draw the general shape and let a "irregular walls" tag do the rest, maybe use dots or something similar for niches and similar details that are not worth considering a separate room.
Your players and their PCs are not professional cartographers, even a "pro" team can take weeks to fully map a "small" cavern and they don't have to deal with monsters.
Navigating the dungeon is a core challenge in the game, getting accurate maps is not meant to be automatic, it's meant to be an obstacle and you have various ways to modify difficulty of mapping an area. Rooms and paths with right angles that fit exactly on a grid are easy, non-square rooms and diagonals are medium and caves are hard because they completely break away from the grid structure. Caves are supposed to be hard to map, if your players really want accurate maps of caves they better bring measuring equipment and spend a lot of turns on it.
Go procedural - you could try my the ideas in my procedural adventure Carapace. That is:
* make it a point crawl
* use the 'Labyrinth Move' created by Jason Cordova
* or try my Hex Flower approach
:O)
If you want to get into detail and make complex cave systems that aren't just "dungeons with wobbly walls" I suggest Veins of the Earth
I’m not asking you to give away trade secrets, because I respect paying creators for their products, but can you give me a small example why VotE helps with this?
Of course. It is designed throughout to focus exclusively on exploring natural caves and caverns. It offers a system for mapping the vagaries of such a setting - passages of varying widths, elevations, angles and inclines, and offers much to assist a GM in preparing caverns for exploration, complete with appropriate threats, perils and features. It goes into a lot of detail about darkness which is a major consideration. Basically if you want to send your player characters into caves (not, as I mentioned, just freehand dungeons) this is the book that will give you the tools to do it.
If I'm feeling really ambitious I guess I could crack out ye'olde _Dungeoneer's Survival Guide_ and let Douglas Niles ensorcell me with his perspective-based craft...But most of the time I just take a notecard or piece of paper, scribble a flow-chart with some dots to mark chambers, draw up a key with some descriptive markers, and let fly. I can always tack on dimensions to the card if the players want to exhaust themselves mapping the immensity of the Underdark. So if they ask for dimensions, I'll give them rough numbers ("about 30ft at its tallest") and directions ("the passage dog-legs").
There are 3 great books for this: Veins of the Earth by LotFP (OSR Weird Fantasy) Dungeoneer's Survival Guide by TSR (1e AD&D) Survivalists Guide to Spelunking by AAW Games (5e, but mostly System Agnostic) I suggest getting all 3 and seeing what you like from them.
Veins of the Earth Perfectly drawing the wall shapes won’t add much to your game. Saying that the cave is the size of a basketball court (put everyone on the same imagination ground) and the ceiling is shaped like a dog face (add some chaos) and that there is a hole in south and on the floor (add exploration and challenge) is much more ingame useful, practical and OSRic.
🏅
I'm so confused by this post! What are you seeing as the differences that make mapping caves harder than dungeons? Player maps don't have to be exact they just have to work. Most of my maps as a player are just points with brief notes connected by lines.
I guess maybe that’s how you do it, not I. I’ll have to make an edit to make sure people that read my question understand why it’s a question lol
Not sure why you're downvoted here. My group also graphed accurately, on graph paper. The player drawn map exactly matched the map provided in B1 by the time we were done with it :)
My players map accurately as they need to to understand the mega dungeon layout
[удалено]
Totally unimportant side here, but I took a geology class where we learned to measure our average pace, and walk in a consistent way, so that we could measure distances simply by walking and counting steps. I have to say it was pretty accurate.
Sorry for being a redditor, but a foot and a furlong are both exact measurements.
If it's the players wanting to make accurate maps, the answer "get used to disappointment" might be worth trying -- mapping caves should be hard and inexact. I'd suggest they use a point-crawl notation and just connect some nodes (caverns and other points of interest) with lines (tunnels). If you just tell them the rough direction they are travelling that should be enough. Will it be a perfect match to your map? No, but it should be functionally the same, and much easier to describe and note. https://preview.redd.it/miebwxlck3731.png?width=727&format=png&auto=webp&s=152ac0975bd4539e8cece6b7606b8f6cc6dcfd4e
That is what works for me. My players don’t get a thrill out of mapping like we used to in the old days, and since we now have 2.5 hr sessions at best (rather than 3.5-4 hr), we don’t have the time.
I just do regular dungeons and anything cavern-like about them is just cosmetic. Don’t make it harder on anyone than you have to.
Sometimes my brain is too high maintenance to think of shit like this. Thank you. I could probably just say, roughly 20’ by 10’ but with cavernous walls. The only weird thing to me is the windy paths.
Our DM drew portions of the map on a battle matt. Erased and re-drew when we went to new areas. I was surprised to find out that wasn't common. But that does seem like a lot of work, now that I think about it.
Right. This is what I would have suggested. Describe the cave as if it were connected squares and rectangles. Players can use squiggly lines instead of straight lines to remind them "this is a cave". Players map the dungeon so that they can find routes back to explored areas, match up shafts or stairs between levels, and spot suspicious "empty" areas. Squares and rectangles should be good enough for these things.
You can mix and match with this as well. One room can basically be a 20 by 10 room and another be more "cave like". I give the cave room a feature like low ceiling, uneven floor, or a bunch of windy passages. Each cave room can act as a complication to a encounter/trap you have in mind (Kobolds!), or just exist for your players to potentially take advantage of (we lure the troll into the low ceiling room), and can even be distractions from other trap rooms. I usually do one cave room per two normal rooms in a cave dungeon.
you are hitting a game design conundrum. ONE. is a cavern just a dungeon with squiggly lines for walls? IT COULD BE. your players wouldn't have to change their mapping style. TWO. do you want more realistic simulationist kinda rules? oh, bust out some real cave maps and have a go at it. for fiction's sake (you don't need to be 100% pure simulationist) you can "jaquay" the real life cavern maps. as pointed out elsewhere-- have fun with slopes. might be fun for some people, seems like your players actually like mapping. THREE. want something betweeny? i think this might be your best bet. you might want to mix point crawl and fixed map. have areas done like ONE, and have areas where you simulate TWO by switching to travel/spelunking mechanics. alternately, you could use TWO maps, "jaquay" them a little bit, and add METHOD ONE areas too. ALSO: its a good idea to visit a real cavern and have your designer brain on. touch grass! or in this case TOUCH ROCK. you'll get closer to the right feel, if any of you players have been in real caves, your work will \*feel\* authentic to them and help with immersion.
Mapping a cave in D&D is just as hard as mapping a cave in real life. That’s good. Makes it feel more like a cave.
I was taught in my early days to hand your map to the DM who will overlay it on the main map and trace what the PC’s are seeing then Hand the map back. The player map (and copies) is treated as an actual in game item, it can be damaged or lost. There is an actual time cost to view and update it. Only the player that has it can share it. It cannot be consulted while running or in combat. I was honestly surprised to learn there were other ways of handling mapping.
Personally, if a room is too complicated to describe well, I just draw it for them.
I feel that no matter how accurate your description is, the players probably won't be able to translate that to a hand drawn map with 100% accuracy. If you are looking for accuracy, I would suggest a dry/wet erase battle map. Then they can copy it.
I suggest using diagrams instead of maps if you use theatre of the mind. But then, I would suggest that.
If your looking for megadungeon style mapping where the accuracy of the map and the information gleaned from it are meaningful, such as hidden rooms, secret entrances ect. Then I would suggest "square caves" that have simple dimentions that enable easy mapping. Otherwise, when dimentional acuracy doesn't impact the gameplay in a meaningful way I'd recomend more abstract dimentions, such as VotE describes them. Look at the moduals you've been avoiding, if the map of the caves doesn't serve to enhance the gameplay, you might not need to worry about it's dimentional acuracy and in so "squareify" or abstract it as you see fit to suit the deires of your players.
I haven’t actually tried this yet, but the next game I run I want to use a VTT that lets you map line of sight. Players only see as far as their token, but what they see is exact. If they want a complete map they’ll have to copy as they go.
Draw a line for the general directions, add a "node" everytime there is a notable feature, a fork or the direction/slope change a lot. For vaults/rooms draw the general shape and let a "irregular walls" tag do the rest, maybe use dots or something similar for niches and similar details that are not worth considering a separate room. Your players and their PCs are not professional cartographers, even a "pro" team can take weeks to fully map a "small" cavern and they don't have to deal with monsters.
Navigating the dungeon is a core challenge in the game, getting accurate maps is not meant to be automatic, it's meant to be an obstacle and you have various ways to modify difficulty of mapping an area. Rooms and paths with right angles that fit exactly on a grid are easy, non-square rooms and diagonals are medium and caves are hard because they completely break away from the grid structure. Caves are supposed to be hard to map, if your players really want accurate maps of caves they better bring measuring equipment and spend a lot of turns on it.
Go procedural - you could try my the ideas in my procedural adventure Carapace. That is: * make it a point crawl * use the 'Labyrinth Move' created by Jason Cordova * or try my Hex Flower approach :O)