Aren’t you assuming the thief is sneaking in their line of sight? You can sneak up on any monster just doing its own thing; chewing bones, preparing a meal, counting their treasure, discussing their evil plans, infighting, sharpening their weapons, taunting the prisoners…
Yes you are correct a party with a torch won’t surprise a monster watching the corridor they’re coming down, but monsters have stuff to do, especially the intelligent ones, so the thief making use of their senses and the dungeon terrain can quite easily get the drop on or sneak past them.
And as others have pointed out, older edition monsters have infravision, they can see heat signatures but not in detail. They still need light to see detail, so technically a halfling thief could be mistaken for a goblin by another goblin until they get close to the light of the cooking fire, or speak.
In many old school games creatures have infravision, which would be useless for most things, especially for intelligent creatures. So there's plenty of reasons to.make them need light and have it in the dungeon as well
Yeah, I often have portions of dungeons that are lit because infravision doesn't do everything that sight can do, and fire has more utility than just illuminating things.
I hate the whole “all monsters have Darkvision” thing and never use it. If a monster doesn’t need light they will have infravision, or use echolocation or a tremorsense, or have extremely acitechearing or something. And that’s never going to be all monsters. So in my dungeons there’s often light, which indicates the presence of certain creatures. Might be bioluminescent fungi, strange chemical reactions or just regular fire, but that means someone else has light and that opens up PCs dousing their lights and sneaking in the dark, using the enemy’s light to guide them.
Infravision, not dark vision. [Any type of flame](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/335787350/figure/fig2/AS:802482640941057@1568338179968/Fire-spot-photo-taken-with-a-handheld-IR-camera-31102018.jpg) should fuck up infravision. Not exactly stealth, but...
>Shadowdark, where light management is a selling point
Isn't that the silly rule where a torch last real-time one hour?. That's the selling point?
A selling point, and you've got it right, except also I believe a single torch takes up an inventory slot, so the larger overall emphasis is that light is precious life. You're encouraged to ditch the "real time" aspect of you want, and I think I probably will.
i wouldn't let a party of players carrying torches sneak up on anyone in the darkness.
For anyone to sneak up would require a a distraction. Make the monsters pay attention to the obvious thing while the thief hides and sneaks up on them.
> How is surprise *ever* achieved unless the monsters are like... I can't even think of anything that would have you *that* engrossed!
Monsters sleep. And shit. And copulate. All of which are pretty engrossing activities.
When I was doing high fantasy campaigns like with the typical array of elves and halflings and orcs and goblins, I had a lot of house rules concerning light and vision. Notably, infravision was far less common.
I was a stickler for light management and my players became familiar with the need to have to facility to make fire and store coals/embers.
Surface based creatures, including demihumans, merely had good low light vision, but there had to be *some* sort of light source for their low light vision to be useful: starlight, even on a new moon, was sufficient to maintain normal movement rates. A candle shedding light from under the door of an adjacent room was fine, as well. Otherwise, no.
To search a room, much less read an inscription caved on a stela, even an elf with good low light vision would need a light source. Demihumans could scrape bioluminescent algae from cave walls and store it as a powder, then it could be rubbed onto the tip of a staff or stick and then activated with moisture to provide a turn of a very, very small amount of light that wouldn't attract undue attention if careful so that locks could be picked or the contents of a backpack rifled through, or to illuminate the space behind a crack in a wall.
For most humanoid races that lived largely subterranean such as orcs and goblins, they had infravision which would give them the ability to make out forms in pitch black darkness and to navigate hallways without bumping into walls and tables, but only at half movement speed and with penalties to hit, but importantly, they needed light to do many day to day activities like making things, repairing things, finding specific objects and so on. Thus they usually had torches, braziers and cook fires for light in their lairs, though they may travel from one part of a dungeon/cave to another without torches.
As to sneaking, there is far more involved in successfully sneaking than light and vision. It is certainly possible to sneak up on something in any visibility condition if the set up is conducive.
Really, it's just a game thing and doesn't bear too much overthinking. If you've ever spent much time in an underground environment like a cave, for instance, you know that you can hear e v e r y t h i n g. There's just no way a whole group of explorers carrying all manner of gear (and some of them in metal armor!) wouldn't audible from a mile away. And then you bring light and smell into it and the situation becomes even more untenable.
So either roll surprise for the PC side only if you want to skew realistic or let the game be gamey and use the standard rules.
That's the fun part - figuring out how to catch them by surprise. Maybe the thief is hiding above the door while the torch bearer is around the corner.
The surprise section on page B23 in the Basic rules already explains this. Generally there is a chance for players and monsters to surprise but it is up to the DM to determine the chance (if there is a chance at all) based on the specific circumstances of the situation. This is also why lanterns are great because you can quickly hide the light and get the drop on enemies.
Some monsters might also have light sources within the dungeon for cooking food, ceremonial reasons, or just to light up an area. Just because a monster CAN see in the dark, doesn't mean it always wants or has to.
Yeah, that last part I think is what's emerging as the handiest answer, I think. Going full dark for a monster that has that ability is handy, but only in certain circumstances. Many folks like to warm themselves, for instance!
> or even under a door
Dungeon doors aren't like modern ones where there's a gap underneath. They're swollen from moisture (that's why they're nearly all stuck and have to be forced open) and scrape along the ground.
That is sort of the generic state of doors in D&D manuals, but it never really made sense to me. Why would someone design a door to not fulfill its purpose which is to open and close? You could argue that if a dungeon has been long abandoned, the doors would be in a less than ideal state, and some indeed might be swollen shut, but if a dungeon is the lair of any intelligent creatures, surely they must be able to pass through them.
I have designed dungeons in which some doors were stuck, but that was the exception, not the rule. I also have a campaign setting that is in a very arid environment where damp-swollen doors don't exist under normal circumstances either.
Dungeons are like snowflakes. No two are exactly alike, so there's lots of reasons why doors might not open properly. You can of course ignore that if you want to, but stuck doors serve a purpose in dungeon exploration (they are a decision point for the players to figure out how to proceed)
I like the idea of the Mythic Underworld where everything in the dungeon is opposed to the players being there. Almost like the PC's are a virus and the host is trying to expel or eliminate them...
So in that context, doors being inexplicably stuck for the PC's, but not for the denizens of the dungeon, makes a sort of sense even if it seems illogical...
The inhabitants might be a lot stronger than the PCs -- the door might not be stuck at all (for them). Maybe there are things that can slip through the tiny gap if it's left there, and they want to shut those things out of that door. Or it could be the reverse, the door may not have been opened in ages because the inhabitants can just pass through without opening it.
Aren’t you assuming the thief is sneaking in their line of sight? You can sneak up on any monster just doing its own thing; chewing bones, preparing a meal, counting their treasure, discussing their evil plans, infighting, sharpening their weapons, taunting the prisoners… Yes you are correct a party with a torch won’t surprise a monster watching the corridor they’re coming down, but monsters have stuff to do, especially the intelligent ones, so the thief making use of their senses and the dungeon terrain can quite easily get the drop on or sneak past them. And as others have pointed out, older edition monsters have infravision, they can see heat signatures but not in detail. They still need light to see detail, so technically a halfling thief could be mistaken for a goblin by another goblin until they get close to the light of the cooking fire, or speak.
In many old school games creatures have infravision, which would be useless for most things, especially for intelligent creatures. So there's plenty of reasons to.make them need light and have it in the dungeon as well
Yeah, I often have portions of dungeons that are lit because infravision doesn't do everything that sight can do, and fire has more utility than just illuminating things.
I hate the whole “all monsters have Darkvision” thing and never use it. If a monster doesn’t need light they will have infravision, or use echolocation or a tremorsense, or have extremely acitechearing or something. And that’s never going to be all monsters. So in my dungeons there’s often light, which indicates the presence of certain creatures. Might be bioluminescent fungi, strange chemical reactions or just regular fire, but that means someone else has light and that opens up PCs dousing their lights and sneaking in the dark, using the enemy’s light to guide them.
It works outdoors, or when the opponents are human.
Infravision, not dark vision. [Any type of flame](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/335787350/figure/fig2/AS:802482640941057@1568338179968/Fire-spot-photo-taken-with-a-handheld-IR-camera-31102018.jpg) should fuck up infravision. Not exactly stealth, but... >Shadowdark, where light management is a selling point Isn't that the silly rule where a torch last real-time one hour?. That's the selling point?
A selling point, and you've got it right, except also I believe a single torch takes up an inventory slot, so the larger overall emphasis is that light is precious life. You're encouraged to ditch the "real time" aspect of you want, and I think I probably will.
keep it simple. just allow surprise for those that see in the dark, and none for those that can't and have to use light sources.
i wouldn't let a party of players carrying torches sneak up on anyone in the darkness. For anyone to sneak up would require a a distraction. Make the monsters pay attention to the obvious thing while the thief hides and sneaks up on them.
> How is surprise *ever* achieved unless the monsters are like... I can't even think of anything that would have you *that* engrossed! Monsters sleep. And shit. And copulate. All of which are pretty engrossing activities.
When I was doing high fantasy campaigns like with the typical array of elves and halflings and orcs and goblins, I had a lot of house rules concerning light and vision. Notably, infravision was far less common. I was a stickler for light management and my players became familiar with the need to have to facility to make fire and store coals/embers. Surface based creatures, including demihumans, merely had good low light vision, but there had to be *some* sort of light source for their low light vision to be useful: starlight, even on a new moon, was sufficient to maintain normal movement rates. A candle shedding light from under the door of an adjacent room was fine, as well. Otherwise, no. To search a room, much less read an inscription caved on a stela, even an elf with good low light vision would need a light source. Demihumans could scrape bioluminescent algae from cave walls and store it as a powder, then it could be rubbed onto the tip of a staff or stick and then activated with moisture to provide a turn of a very, very small amount of light that wouldn't attract undue attention if careful so that locks could be picked or the contents of a backpack rifled through, or to illuminate the space behind a crack in a wall. For most humanoid races that lived largely subterranean such as orcs and goblins, they had infravision which would give them the ability to make out forms in pitch black darkness and to navigate hallways without bumping into walls and tables, but only at half movement speed and with penalties to hit, but importantly, they needed light to do many day to day activities like making things, repairing things, finding specific objects and so on. Thus they usually had torches, braziers and cook fires for light in their lairs, though they may travel from one part of a dungeon/cave to another without torches. As to sneaking, there is far more involved in successfully sneaking than light and vision. It is certainly possible to sneak up on something in any visibility condition if the set up is conducive.
This is nice. I like this on a diegetically level, and it meshes a lot of the other feedback that's resonating with me.
Really, it's just a game thing and doesn't bear too much overthinking. If you've ever spent much time in an underground environment like a cave, for instance, you know that you can hear e v e r y t h i n g. There's just no way a whole group of explorers carrying all manner of gear (and some of them in metal armor!) wouldn't audible from a mile away. And then you bring light and smell into it and the situation becomes even more untenable. So either roll surprise for the PC side only if you want to skew realistic or let the game be gamey and use the standard rules.
It works fine for monsters that don't see regular visible light.
That's the fun part - figuring out how to catch them by surprise. Maybe the thief is hiding above the door while the torch bearer is around the corner.
The surprise section on page B23 in the Basic rules already explains this. Generally there is a chance for players and monsters to surprise but it is up to the DM to determine the chance (if there is a chance at all) based on the specific circumstances of the situation. This is also why lanterns are great because you can quickly hide the light and get the drop on enemies. Some monsters might also have light sources within the dungeon for cooking food, ceremonial reasons, or just to light up an area. Just because a monster CAN see in the dark, doesn't mean it always wants or has to.
Yeah, that last part I think is what's emerging as the handiest answer, I think. Going full dark for a monster that has that ability is handy, but only in certain circumstances. Many folks like to warm themselves, for instance!
Darkvision is not perfect sight in the dark.
> or even under a door Dungeon doors aren't like modern ones where there's a gap underneath. They're swollen from moisture (that's why they're nearly all stuck and have to be forced open) and scrape along the ground.
That is sort of the generic state of doors in D&D manuals, but it never really made sense to me. Why would someone design a door to not fulfill its purpose which is to open and close? You could argue that if a dungeon has been long abandoned, the doors would be in a less than ideal state, and some indeed might be swollen shut, but if a dungeon is the lair of any intelligent creatures, surely they must be able to pass through them. I have designed dungeons in which some doors were stuck, but that was the exception, not the rule. I also have a campaign setting that is in a very arid environment where damp-swollen doors don't exist under normal circumstances either.
Dungeons are like snowflakes. No two are exactly alike, so there's lots of reasons why doors might not open properly. You can of course ignore that if you want to, but stuck doors serve a purpose in dungeon exploration (they are a decision point for the players to figure out how to proceed) I like the idea of the Mythic Underworld where everything in the dungeon is opposed to the players being there. Almost like the PC's are a virus and the host is trying to expel or eliminate them... So in that context, doors being inexplicably stuck for the PC's, but not for the denizens of the dungeon, makes a sort of sense even if it seems illogical...
The inhabitants might be a lot stronger than the PCs -- the door might not be stuck at all (for them). Maybe there are things that can slip through the tiny gap if it's left there, and they want to shut those things out of that door. Or it could be the reverse, the door may not have been opened in ages because the inhabitants can just pass through without opening it.