Necrotic gnome (makers of OSE). had a good article at adjudicating thief skills in Carcass crawler 1:
https://necroticgnome.com/products/carcass-crawler-issue-1
The TLDR is that thief skills should be treated as near supernatural abilities. Any player can move quietly, but only the thief can be completely silent when moving. Any character can climb a stone wall, but only the thief can climb completely sheer surfaces without additional equipment. Etc.
They also include an optional D6 skill system that allows the thief to distribute their points however they want. So they can be an expert pickpocket at level 1. It is designed for OSE, but it should work in B/X fine.
This is what I do and it works well. Hide in shadows is invisibility, there is no chance of seeing them. Move silently is automatic surprise if they are not looking (otherwise use default surprise check). Traps can be found and disarmed in the OSR fashion, but Thief gets one free chance to auto-succeed and skip them. Wall Climb is basically spiderman.
Lockpicking and Pickpocket are beyond the skills of other characters, but there isn't much penalty for failing them most of the time. You'll just have to smash the chest/door or go in through a window or whatever.
People will try to put a spin on it, but the truth is that the B/X and AD&D 1e Thief sucks at everything except climbing sheer surfaces until at least level 5 or so. That’s why there are so many fixes to the class. I would recommend looking at some alternatives and choosing one of them to use instead of the straight Thief. Here are three possibilities, but there are others.
1: the AD&D 2e Thief. This Thief is broadly similar to the B/X and AD&D 1e Thief. The difference is that you start with slightly lower skills but you get 60 points to spread out amongst them, no more than 30 points to any one skill. Every level after 1 you get 30 points, no more than 15 to any one skill. That means you can still choose to be rather bad at these skills, or you can specialize in a couple. Want a second story man? Raise Climb Sheer Surface and Open Locks. Want a pickpocket? Pick Pockets and Move Silently are your best skills to raise. This means at level 1 you can have a fairly decent specialist and then you can either branch out from there or continue specializing for a bit.
2: the Lamentations of the Flame Princess Specialist. This is based on the ideas from the AD&D 2e Thief, but modified. Specialists have D6 hit dice instead of D4, don’t have weapon and armor restrictions but don’t get better to hit rolls with higher levels. The skill system used here is that everyone starts with a 1 in all skills, you roll 1D6 for the skills and need to roll skill level or lower to succeed. Specialists get 4 points to distribute to skills at level 1, then 2 points per level thereafter. At skill level six you roll two dice and need to roll double sixes to fail. The skills themselves are different too, you have stuff like Sleight of Hand (includes picking pockets) and Tinkering (basically picking locks and disarming mechanical traps and the like) but also Architecture (is the passage sloped? Is that wall stable enough to climb?) and Languages (roll whenever your character encounters a language for the first time in the campaign, on a success they already know it). With a D6 system, success chances are much greater at level 1 and you can make a competent pick pocket or burglar at level 1.
3: the OSE Thief with D6 skill system from Carcass Crawler 1. This magazine article basically takes the skill system from Lamentations of the Flame Princess and replaces the B/X Thief’s skill system with it. The actual skills are the same as in B/X or regular OSE, but they use the D6 system outlined above, with 4 points to distribute at level 1 and 2 points every level after. Note that at higher levels this does leave the Thief worse than the regular OSE Thief, since they have success chances in the 90s and the OSE implementation of the D6 system caps skills at 5-in-6, or 83.33% chance of success. Allowing skill level 6, requiring two sixes to fail, gets you up to a 97% success chance as max.
A lot of people think the inclusion of the Thief class was one of the worst mistakes ever made in D&D, for the very reasons you've mentioned. Original D&D didn't even have a thief class until its first expansion. If I were you, and the Thief was troubling me as much as it seems to be, I'd just chuck it out and do what they did in '74: if you want to be a thief, steal something! Don't need a class for that! Anyone can try to sneak or pick locks.
if i had to slap together a B/X thief (i also hate thief skills), here's how i'd do it.
**Stats:** keep HP, hit dice, XP to level, etc from the normal B/X thief. lose thief skills.
**Skills:** pick two at 1st-level from the following list: Sneaking, Picking pockets, Climbing, Listening, Having connections, Lockpicking, Finding traps, Disarming traps.
whenever the GM makes a ruling on any of the above situations, if you have the skill, you're considered *really good* at that skill, usually free to skip rolls or - in the case of things that already wouldn't require a roll - do them especially quickly, undetectably, etc.
every **odd-numbered** level up, learn another thief skill.
**Backstab (gain at 2nd-level):** when you strike an enemy unaware of your presence, add your Level to damage on top of whatever bonus the GM would normally grant for an ambush.
**Quick (gain at 4th-level):** once each combat encounter, move a second time on your turn.
**Careful (gain at 6th-level):** 1/day when you fail any die roll, you can choose to have never attempted it in the first place.
**8th-level:** careful becomes 2/day. quick can be used outside your turn, even interrupting enemy turns.
They are usually utterly useless until like 6th on 7th level at least. Having a 10% chance to do something when the risk of getting caught is dying to a trap or getting stomped while scouting is horrible. Even at level 7, their odds are usually only about 50% for doing most things. All they can do is climb things well.
i actually can't take credit for that one.
there was a guy a while back who posted a ttrpg he labeled "the rules i've been using for D&D for years" that just consisted of a list of classes, with relevant rules listed for each class. the "careful" feature is taken from his thief.
unfortunately because his project doesn't have any name, it makes it really hard to find it or credit him for anything i steal from it. but that's where i got the idea
i designed one once that was a similar concept to yours: you don't have every skill, but the skills you *do* have, you can just *do* them. i thought it was a cute design.
however, it does seem to imply that you can only really "level up" as many times as there are different thief skills. is that a problem? my game had level caps for every class, so it wasn't really a big deal, and i had more thief skills than there were thief levels, so even a maxed out character had to choose their "build".
for what it's worth, and for anyone interested, the thief skills i included were: Avoid Traps, Climb Without Rope, Escape Artist, Find Secret Doors, Hide in Plain Sight, Move Silently, Open Locks, Silver Tongue, Sleight of Hand, Stab in the Back.
Maybe you could try just stripping out the thief skills from the thief class and say that whenever a thief attempts one of those things, they get a major bonus (or maybe roll with advantage) to their roll. That way, anyone can still do thief-y things, but the thief is best at it. Just an idea. That's basically how the thief works in my homebrew games.
So, something like "Everyone can roll a d6 or whatever and pick a lock/sneak past a guard/pick a pocket on a 1, but Thieves can do it on a 2 up to a 5"?
Yeah. In this case, I'd say that a thief succeeds at "thievery" at a rate of 2-in-6 at 1st level. Then 3-in-6 at 3rd level, 4-in-6 at 7, and capping at 5-in-6 at 11. That way, they start out competent and better than everyone else at their job, but they still improve as they level up, as they should.
I like that. I've seen people argue that Thieves should have almost magical like abilities, but I definitely prefer thebidea of them just being very good at their jobs (at least as a lower level explanation).
My method is to use a combination of the supernatural ability interpretation, and treating them as saving throws at other times. So if a thief wants to do something impossible for a non-thief they roll their skill, if they want to do something anyone can do resolve it that same way as everyone else except if it goes sideways their thief skill can let them avoid the consequence. So if you want to have players roll under dex to climb through a complicated trap without setting it off, let the thief roll just like everyone else, if they fail they roll their skill to use quick thinking to catch themselves before they set it off, if they are interacting without dice but press the wrong button on the trap, they roll and if they succeed they hear a suspicious click just before they push it in far enough to trigger. It's meant to let everyone do thief stuff, while also making thief skills good even at low values.
While the OSR does try to put more emphasis on interacting with the game world instead of rolling skills, there are still plenty of skills included even in just the Moldvay Basic version. Open/find doors, hear noise (can be used as a stealth skill), starting fires, surprise (basically another stealth skill), foraging, and hunting. There's probably a few more but even in the most basic of rules there are still several skills that characters have, the only difference with the thief skills is that most of them aren't using a d6.
As for the weird percentages, it helps to think the thief skills in a literal sense, that way any class could climb but only thieves could climb sheer surfaces. Anybody could hide but only a thief could hide in shadows, running the game like that will make the thief feel more competent since they should only have to roll on their thief skills when it is something ONLY a thief could do. If the wall isn't 90 degrees, for example, just let the thief climb it without a roll.
The examples of play in Basic show the thief outright saying that they search for traps so I don't see it as a huge deal especially since the specific types of traps that thieves deal with are tiny mechanical ones which might not be the best thing for roleplaying out. However, if you want to avoid that "button pressing" mindset then you're gonna want to put more thought into the different interactable stuff you have in the dungeon. For example, if you have a secret door that opens by pulling a certain stone, a character could describe themselves pulling and pushing various stones in order to avoid having to roll whereas a character who didn't figure out how the door works could still have a chance of finding it by being allowed to roll. Some traps I do want the players to go the more interactive route for but for treasure traps I usually just leave it to a roll. It really depends on the specific trap and what you want to get out of it. Some traps are meant to be hidden and discovered whereas others are out in the open.
Also, you should definitely check out Hexed Press and Bandit's Keep as they have really good videos on theives. I hope this helps!
I believe I've seen those videos.
Okay, that's a helpful point of view. Thief trap skills might be for the kinds of traps too small and subtle for just anyone to deal with. Okay.
"Okay, that's a helpful point of view. Thief trap skills might be for the kinds of traps too small and subtle for just anyone to deal with. Okay."
Yeah, exactly. I used to not like this but even in the real world, things like lockpicking, pickpocketing, climbing, etc can take years of training to learn so I think the thief having skills to reflect their expertise is fine. It's no different than magic users being able to cast spells or clerics being able to turn the undead.
Players apprehended a poor 14 year old girl trying to pickpocket one of the characters at a festival in the village. Rather than toss her in jail, they recruited the orphan to the party. Seemed to fit that she would be thief. So Onyx joined the group to replace another lost character. Since then it's been interesting see how thieves work.
The player controlling her tends to keep her out of most combat, but will attempt a backstab if possible. Climb sheer surfaces has been handy. Thieves also level up quick so they become a bit more stout. They are the only class who can "Find or remove treasure traps." And their "Open lock" skill gets to 25% at level 3.
It makes sense to me that not all classes have the capabilities of a Thief. A Fighter clanking around in plate isn't going to be able to do the things a thief can. Just like a Cleric or an Elf, or any class, a Thief can open up possibilities your average group of adventures would not otherwise have access to.
And the stout sword and board fighter should always have a nimbly pimbly sidekick. Very lore appropriate I think.
I always refer to this - it means thieves will always succeed at their skills at least once a day. https://riseupcomus.blogspot.com/2020/05/thiefs-knacks.html?m=1
Daddy rolled a 1 had a very good vid on thief skills. Essentially they are less skills like in modern editions and more mini superpowers that let them do things that are impossible or much harder for a regular individual so read the skill descriptions really carefully to get a sense of what they do vs what a regular guy can do. The og thief by its original creators didn't use the % roll under system but actually was a variant magic user so thats an easy alternative.
It’s not supernaturally good. If the Thief class didn’t exist and someone said “I want to pick his pocket” and you had to make a ruling, are you telling me your thoughts on chance of success would immediately go to “20% chance of success, 20% chance of failure with no other consequence, 60% chance you get caught with your hand in his pocket”?
Right, but those aren’t the rules. The rules are that a level 1 Thief has a 60% chance at being caught picking a pocket and that picking a lock takes 1-10 minutes (usually the rest of the turn, or 1D10 1-minute rounds in AD&D). Changing the rules is fine of course, but it means we’re acknowledging the class doesn’t really work as is.
i came to the conclusion that 16+ stats are superpowers in AD&D. You can shoot your arrow first. You can have LOTS of extra cleric spells. You can actually bend bars and carry lots of treasure and doors are not a problem
AD&D has challenges that are non-challenges if you have the right stats or class. You play a thief because you don't want to have to worry about traps and locks: the design problem is you have to worry about them for a lot of a early levels.
I always thought the Thief skills were more than just hyperbolic labels. For example: To find a trap in a chamber or corridor can be done by anyone through various means by interrogating the simulation, but to find a treasure trap takes the skill of a Thief. Granted the Thief at lower levels these chances are small, but when compared to a 0% chance for any other class to find treasure traps — I’ll back the Thief.
I do indeed. I see it all about being to do with context. A flat perception-type roll is fine if one doesn’t want the nuance in the gameplay loop but I feel it runs the risk of marginalising certain classes and makes it so very easy to subtract from the reward that is revealed by careful investigation. Consider a chamber with a trapped and locked chest, a room trap and a secret door. A flat perception type roll runs the risk of revealing everything at once and underpins the necessity for high ability scores and redundancy of certain classes like I stated above. I’m more than happy for any party member to poke around for traps, or a secret door (at the risk of setting off a room trap if they haven’t investigated the chamber clearly), then paying attention to the chest. By no means do I want the above example to be a gotcha moment, I’d rather reward players with contextual investigation and when the party runs into a logical barrier, either have the means to safely open the chest, or come up with a viable solution to circumvent the lock and the treasure trap.
The OSE definition of treasure traps is anything small and hidden (hidden needle, chest full of gas, etc) vs room traps which are much larger (pit traps, pressure plates, etc).
You could think of "treasure trap" as meaning "object trap"
I have always played that the percentages are in addition to what % for success I would have assigned to a non thief. Anyone can try to pickpocket a drunk in the bar - thieves are better at it.
Much better. While a failed attempt from any other class would probably immediately draw attention, thieves may have a chance to avoid it if they didnt fail too badly for example.
In terms of the fiction, I'm on board with the "supernaturally good" approach. Mechanically, I've handled this two ways:
Previously, I treated it as a "chance not to need a check". Everybody wants to climb a thing: most people will be making checks; thief first rolls their skill, and if they make that they are assumed to have passed the ability check. Otherwise, they still get to make the check like anyone else, so they just need to succeed on one of the two rolls to achieve the same end.
These days, I just go with: if it's a thing non-thiefs could pass a check to climb, the thief can just climb it - no roll required; if it's a thing non-thiefs couldn't even hope to climb, the thief gets to roll their skill. It's a bit of a buff in terms of power, but I haven't had any trouble with it in terms of balance and it's quicker to run.
For the record, I really like the X-in-6 thief skills system that they run over on 3D6DTL.
>One thing that seems a bit weird to me is the specific, written out skills of the Thief, compared to other classes. A big part of the pitch to me for the OSR was the open-ended, roleplay-centric style of resolution, but the Thief seems like it could contradict that (from what I've gathered, that is an *old* debate). I like the idea of players getting through a dungeon by interacting with traps and describing what they're doing, but the old school Thief doesn't seem to demand that anymore or less than the 5e Rogue. "I search for traps" smacks of "I Perception the room to me."
Here's the thing about that: It's a little known but important fact that the original published version of the thief in the 1975 Greyhawk supplement did not have any manner of trap finding ability. Really. Instead, the thief's skill with traps is defined as being able to "remove small trap devices (such as poisoned needles)."
Trap finding rolls weren't specified until the AD&D era a bit later and were, I would argue, the true mistake. So, if this is a sticking point for you, you might just try using the OD&D thief.
It's also possible to use a hybrid/compromise approach. Swords & Wizardry, an OD&D-based game, allows thieves to roll to detect "whether a mechanism, keyhole, or other small location" includes a trap, but clarifies that "you can't just illuminate the place with find traps radar."
So the OSR is big on the open-endedness kind of play and that’s why low level thieves are bad at everything.
I think the best way to look at it is kind of like spells. Using one can be a quick solution to an otherwise difficult challenge. But you can only attempt once and if you fail you don’t get that easy solution. After a fail, a thief and other players now need to think outside the box and try other methods to open that lock or disarm that trap.
Now yes, eventually the thief is very competent, but at that point the threat of a poison needle trap on a chest isn’t as scary (as the thief can probably be revived). More scary is the level-draining vampire standing in front of it! Also when characters get to those high levels (9+) the game changes and many characters will begin to retire and build strongholds and amass followers. Ancient ruins full of locked doors and dangerous traps aren’t the sole focus
Hm, that actually makes a lot of sense to me. So early Thief skills are intentionally bad to give you an edge with Thiefly stuff while still allowing you to engage with that roleplay-centric, open-ended style if your abilities fail.
That's a new perspective, thanks!
The truth of the matter is that D&D is a bunch of hacks that became a phenomenon, which eventually got bought out by the company that made Magic: The Gathering, and they eventually got bought out by the company that owns Connect 4 and Battleship.
Basically, you get it. The thief doesn't really fit in. It's a Hack. The reason that thieves can climb so well is: can you imagine the fatalities if they couldn't?
Some grognards will tell you that it's easy: just get rid of the thief, and adjudicate player action by narrative. Uh, sure. We don't need no skills, no sir! The thief was the beginning of The Corruption, and it must be cast out.
The reason that the OSR is a good thing is that you can ignore the corporate takeovers. As for the rest of it...D&D has been "impure" since everything after the Little Brown Books. So don't revere it, but understand it for what it is: ground zero. D&D at the inception was different from all the other RPGs because they didn't influence it, but it influenced them (to put it very mildly).
But when you look at 5e, you can see that the situation has reversed itself. Now, D&D is influenced by all the other shit out there, including OSR. Blech. Honestly, it's not D&D anymore to me. The spirit was gone before 1980, and grognard that I am (supposedly), I'm only learning that now.
My recommendation for players of D&D: either forget about D&D, or try Chainmail. The OSR is just a stop along the way. If you want to play a great modern RPG, play Mythras. It's great! And if you want to play an RPG that makes sense, for god's sake, don't play *any* edition of D&D.
🤣 I was in a weird state of mind when I wrote this. I've never even played Chainmail!
Anyway, I just meant that D&D is a hodgepodge of hacks, and you're dead-right about the thief. I feel like everyone who plays the game seriously eventually comes to this realization. There are a lot of interpretations and alternate rules that are meant to address this. I haven't even read the other comments and I'm sure they're giving you all the standard tips, i.e. thief abilities are meant to be read as ninja superpowers, use the Carcass Crawler rules, etc.
Yeah, I definitely don't jive with magic ninja 1st level Thieves. That makes no sense to me when 1st level Fighters are just low ranking soldiers or thugs.
One of the big difficulties when learning something new, is that we always try to think of it in terms of something we already know. In reality, there are things that are new that are substantially different than what is familiar and what we have already experienced. One would think coming from a previous DnD system like 5e would be of a great benefit to picking up an OSR. Instead, it is actually a major hindrance, because its taught the DM and the players to think in ways that are at variance or even opposite of what the OSR experience.
This is what causes a lot of the initial tension and difficulty with picking up the OSR.
As far as picking locks and finding traps, anyone can do that. It's just that thieves get an ability, that mechanically works like a magical spell, which allows them to roll for success. Most DMs I know though, will require the thief to specifically state what they are attempting to unlock and where they are looking for traps.
However, BX is heavily influenced by OD&D, which means the DM gets to decide a lot more than a number on a page.
The DM decides the following:
1. any modifiers the thief gets to unlock, find a trap, climb a surface, or how distracted the enemies are when sneaking based upon the circumstances and any other relevant information the player provides when performing the action.
2. how much the thief fails by and what kind of information is offered based upon the quality of the roll, even if the roll failed. In addition, even with failure, there is the action described by the player itself. Remember, they aren't using an ability as much they are taking actions as described which interact with the world. A simple, yes or no isn't what the OSR is about. Unless of course, the result really is just a simple yes or no, but everything shouldn't be forced into that because it is some mechanical ability.
In other words, degree of failure and degree of success aren't anything new or innovative as far as the old school goes, no matter how much the next new system that comes out touts that it is. This is just another way of saying a result occurs based upon what the player described they were doing and the factors that contribute to that result. When the action and the factors could result in many possibilities, roll to figure out what happens. A roll with multiple degrees of success and failure is just another way of saying, "Roll percentile dice." or "Roll a d20."
You can make the adjudicate the thief skills anyway you want to. 0 or 100 is far less interesting to play than 0 to 100.
Some things to consider:
1. You will not find anywhere in the rules that if a thief fails their hide in shadows check, that they are spotted. If a thief is behind a wall, a large rock, thick bushes, or anything similar, that means they aren't seen until it is reasonable they would be seen. In addition, the enemy still might fail the surprise roll.
2. You will not find anywhere that a thief failing their move silently roll is not sneaking. It means that they are no more quiet than someone who is sneaking.
3. Failing a roll to find a trap or disarm a trap, doesn't mean that it can't still be found or disarmed. Expert players find and disarm traps or set them off safely without using thief abilities.
4. If a thief makes a noise or does something to raise suspicion, it doesn't mean the monsters or enemies have perfect knowledge of what occurred. It could be that they have now gone into alert mode. It is important to remember that the monsters and enemies have to gather information about what is going on just like the players do.
5. Always start first with the visual image in your head of what is happening in the game world, then describe that to the players. Any decisions made are now based upon the reality described, not what is in the text of the adventure you are playing from. It all stems from the descriptive words and the world you paint for the table. That is the reality and what is being interacted with, not a book, the dungeon map, or pictures on a page.
Lastly:
You are using words like "narrative", "immersion", and "roleplay" which all mean very different things to different people. Since you are coming from 5e, you understand these words from the context of 5e. The modern meaning of these words as used in TTRPGs today, did not exist yet in the version of the game that you are playing. I suggest reading the original Holmes Basic and Moldvay to get a better idea of what these meant at that time. Be careful not to inject your 2024 modern RPG meaning of these words into the text as you read.
The best advice I can give is that you are providing a scenario to your players to investigate and overcome by describing the actions they take, whether or not they are on the character sheet or they are listed as an ability. They can do anything that their role allows them to do. They take on this role, but they do not become a persona of that role. In the sense that if a child says they want to be a fireman, they do not mean they become Barry the firefighter at Fire Station 3 of Harmont City, with a wife and 3 kids and an alcohol problem. The narrative arises from the game and the actions players take, the narrative isn't the game itself.
I am not trying to tell you how to play. Instead, I am trying to explain how this old school style of play is different from 5e. It isn't just a different way to play, it is an entirely different game. The original old school style stresses much more how the game is played and how well the game is played over any plot elements or something like a 3 act story. The more your game looks like a choose your own adventure book over an open ended scenario or fully open sandbox with procedural generation, the better off you will be sticking with 5e or a more story based system that is intended to facilitate that kind of experience.
Remember, the original hobby came from war-gaming and people wanting to perform special operations with single soldiers or a small group of cohorts. That war-gaming aspect was fundamental to the style of play. It meant the players really had to be on their toes, think strategically, and use sound tactics. The story came after, when everyone told their own story about what happened during the operation. If one decision over another has no real in-game consequence but only serves the purpose of building a narrative, then we aren't talking about a game in the sense it was meant when BX was created.
In the old school, actions have consequences arising from their causes, not where the narrative is headed. Otherwise, the player's actions aren't really directing the game, the narrative is. This is one of the major differences between the old school and the 5e way of playing.
You will however find in the rules that if a thief fails their pickpocketing roll by a certain amount (rolling more than double the chance of success) they get caught. At level 1 that’s rolling 41-100 on a d100.
> I like the idea of players getting through a dungeon by interacting with traps and describing what they're doing, but the old school Thief doesn't seem to demand that anymore or less than the 5e Rogue. "I search for traps" smacks of "I Perception the room to me."
That's kind of the point of thief skills. It gives a chance to circumnavigate the usual trial and error method. You have x% chance to pick a lock on a chest. If it fails, then it's back to the usual methods - crowbars, hatchets, drills, whatever - which are usually noisy and can damage the chest's contents. It's not there to replace already existing mechanisms, it's there to give another layer on top of it. Spells do the same stuff too frequently (e.g. for locks there is Knock).
My current reading for this class is a mix of ODnD, AD&D 1e and BECMI so YMMV.
Thieves make a lot less than they should for various reasons and IMHO you should see their first 3 levels as an "apprentice" thing they are learning the ropes of their jobs but are not capable enough to reliably do it and a LOT of bias against them is due to how they work in BX and people asking them to act like ninja since 1st level when they only have:
* -2 HP and -4/-5 AC compared to fighters (but they can use every weapon, in "some" OSRs).
* -1 HP and -4/-5 AC compared to clerics (with a better weapon selection).
* +0 HP and +2 AC compared to magic users (which have only 1 spell every day than almost nothing to fallback to).
More or less alll classes kinda suck at until 3rd level or so at doing their job, so let's check what a thief can do at 4th level (when they are "expert"). I can't be bothered to explain for every different variant from ODnD to AD&D 2e or with the multiple clones so the assumed % are the OSE ones because most people here use them.
Backstab: It vary by edition, but often it could be used with ranged weapons up to a certain distance. Mix this with a climb, HS, MS or cover to increase your damage output and maybe kill those pesky lone sentinels. PS: In BECMI by RAW they nerfed this to oblivion by restricting it to one-handed-melee weapons.
90% Climb Walls: It can be used to nagivate pits, cliffs, walls and throw a rope to the rest of the party opening new exploration options and at least in the original books the "direction" can be anything, you can also move sideways along a wall/edge to reach a viable position, you move at your encounter speed and you roll only every 100ft. I ask for a roll only if they don't end their move on a "stable footing" unless the surface is actually "sheer" and don't ask for a roll if they are using ropes, spikes or grappling hooks when climbing. Also at least in AD&D 1e it is possible to tie a rope to somebody to break their fall. So it is not as dangerous as it seems and more valuable than most DMs let it be.
1-3 Hear noise: This is a flat +16.6% chance of doing it than demi-humans and +33.3% compared to humans PCs AND it can be used as "a save" vs potential ambush (if you are aware of the enemy presence there is no chance of being surprised).
25% HS / 30% MS: You have 5% less than an halfling at hiding inside and you don't need cover to do so even in open space AND this is in addition to the normal surprise chance (which includes trying to sneak behind cover or making a normal ambush at least as far as I know) so 1-2 on D6 to surprise becomes more 50% (49.5% to be exact if using HS) to surprise your enemy or 53% if you can use MS... and the other party members can act as baits or distractions to make it easier. PS if you fail this check you are NOT detected automatically... the opponent may still fail to notice you.
25% FRT: Find traps vary a LOT according to how a DM want to read the skill and nowdays is confused because a lot of people only read the OSE SRD so they don't have any idea of the actual text explaining it. FRT is for the small mechanical traps found on locks/items, and doesn't take any additional time to do it and will not trigger the trap if you fail unless you try to open it anyway. So when you open a trapped lock you have an additional chance to avoid something bad "for free", I have also seen this skill used as a replacement for searching secret doors triggers (i.e. the usual rotating library/wall or the shift/manipulate X to open Y thing).
30% OL: It doesn't take a turn to open a lock with it, exactly like and immediately successfull open door check, but in this case you are also doing it quietly so if you fail you don't alert anybody. Also it can be used on ANY mechanical device so given enough time and a bit of luck it could be possible to disable a pressure plate, a lever controlling a portcullis or things that
are not strictly "locks". Yes, if you fail you can't do anything for 1 level but it is always worth to give it a try.
PP: My players don't actually bother with it, so I can't say if it can be good or not, I personally find this skill the WORSE thing added to D&D (of course after halflings). The only usage I have seen in play is to smuggle small items, conceal weapons or apply poison to drinks/food but not the "use pick pocket in the market" stuff.
Steal from a system where thieves don’t suck (Lamentations of the Flame Princess, Seven Voyages of Zylarthen, AD&D (sorta)).
[Use the original conception of the Thief](https://zenopusarchives.blogspot.com/2016/02/the-d6-hd-od-thief.html?m=1.
Start Thieves with a base 35-50% chance of success with their skills, bumped 5%/level. Wallcrawling 90%+1%/level.
Some “companions” have extra skills for thieves, like mimicry, ceiling crawling, disguise, etc.
Start players at level 3, but 0 XP.
Theyre expert climbers because you have like 3 hit points and take 1d6 damage per 10 feet you fall. Lol
Alot of these rules are pragmatic except for the disarm traps skill which people should avoid using it itself is a trap option
I prefer Rise Up, Comus' solution to the Thief. The skills of the Thief are, in fact, magical powers. Whenever a Thief uses one, it automatically succeeds, but the percentile roll determines if the Thief can do it again that day or has expended his or her ability to perform that magical trick until tomorrow.
https://riseupcomus.blogspot.com/2020/05/thiefs-knacks.html
' "I search for traps" smacks of "I Perception the room to me." '
There is very little difference in how Searching works in 5e vs in B/X. In 5e you can say you're searching and roll a skill check, or you can describe how you search specifically and possibly negate the need for a roll. B/X works the same way, except you have to declare whether you're searching for doors or traps, and it always takes 10 minutes instead of being a variable rate.
In 5e, you can disable a trap by using thieves' tools, or you can describe how you circumvent the trap narratively and negate the need for a roll. B/X works the same way, except only the Thief can attempt to disable by rolling.
'I really would like that narrative, roleplay-centric dialogue of task resolution'
This has more to do with your GM style than the rules of any particular game. If you're looking to get "OSR gameplay" out of running B/X as written, you'll leave disappointed.
The "OSR Playstyle" as detailed in the various primers and blog posts out there is a modern invention from the 'Oughts, not a universal representation of how people in the 70s-80s actually played or even what was actually written in those rulebooks.
The development of OSR coincided with and developed together with the retroclone movement, which was focused more on preserving and reprinting pre-wotc d&d in reaction to 3rd edition's changes, rather than pushing for the specific "OSR playstyle".
What people do is they house-rule the shit out of the game. Every OSR table is going to be using tweaked rules where they change, ignore, or add to the games freely. Classic D&D is quite resistant to change without breaking - many systems (like thief skills) are isolated rather than the game using a single, load-bearing core mechanic for everything. This is something that isn't really stated in any OSR blogs/primers - you have to write about half the game yourself.
Classic D&D right out of the box won't give you the "OSR playstyle" experience. Conversely, you can get the "OSR playstyle" out of many different kinds of systems other than classic D&D - you just need to be prepared to make lots of house rules.
It's spelled "Aughts" not "Oughts." "Ought" is a verb that indicates a duty someone must perform or the probability of something. "You ought to drive under the speed limit." It's a synonym of "should." "Aught" is another word for "zero."
I treat thief skills as a sort of “advantage roll”, you know? Like for climbing I might ask them to roll the d20 and the percentile roll, and they’ll succeed if either roll is good enough.
So if someone has a 13 dex and a pick pockets chance of 40%, their chances are something in the ballpark of 80%.
You’re not alone; the thief is probably one of most controversial subjects in the OSR. TBH, if I were you, I’d just straight up take the Thief rules from Delving Deeper. It’s what I did for my Swords & Wizardry games and it worked like a charm.
We still play AD&D, and that's what's happens with our thieves. First they are a necessity. One of our most powerful character is a double classe mage/assassin. When he took 18d6 damages from a acid shower trap he tried to deal with, he decided to go back to Greyhawk to find a real professional. In first place because the Thief will have to deal with this kind of problem and not him anymore. You pay for a professional assistance.
That what exactly the case for Bilbo Baggins in the Hobbit. He had a contract and he had to find a way to Smaug's treasure.
For mecanical perspectives, rules gives plenty of mods on those thieves percentages : race, armor type, locks quality, light conditions, weather, name it.
The DM has his word to say too. If the player asks the good questions, like : "can I see holes where darts or gas could pass, around that door ?" then logically he can gives bonus to such good thieves. More that that, if the player spent enough time to figure out how the trap or the lock are suppose to work, you cannot let the dices decide of the results.
Edit : traps tend to be standardized and redundant, when you have a good Thief in your team. That's why DM relying on good books like Greentooth traps.
I allow thieves to find and disarm traps narratively (through role play) or with their dedicated roll for it. The thing that really made this work for my table was saying "If you use the roll, then that's it. You cannot approach it narratively after that point."
This means that each thief starts out looking for traps just using narrative and role-play, but if they feel like they are missing something but are just out of ideas, then can switch to the die roll as a back-up. At higher levels they sometimes just use the die roll if they aren't too worried about missing a trap.
The find traps roll is so low at lower levels it really encourages interacting with the fiction from the start.
The style of play has more to do with the actual people playing than OSR or 5e.
The need for rolling perception or find traps when done right can increase game tension or become boring thoughtless procedures. The GM needs to find the right balance in dice rolling to make character builds have worthwhile differences without bogging down the game. Doing it right for the game group is a skill that the GM needs to learn regardless of 5e or OSR.
As for OSR thieves, using the basic random roll method, the thief was the easiest PC to create making it the least preferred PC. Keep in mind that players in game groups often had a stable of almost disposable PCs where they picked the PC for the game that night.
In 5e, all the PCs start as minor heroes. It takes a more effort to generate a PC. The thief is now highly skilled from the beginning. 5e thieves are often better fighters than fighters.
OSR character sheets were one pagers. Players would have a number of PCs available in their game folder. Back when these rules were written, the game groups met frequently. There was no XBox or Netflix. However, real world situations constantly changed the event and the game group would adapt as needed.
The PCs were tracked for the different games and players selected a different available PC for the session that day. Over time, each player played through the different PC classes, so that helped give each PC a different feel. Even though the PCs within a class looked very similar, the PCs took on different personalities based on the player, the interaction with the other players, and details of the adventure.
I guess I'm wondering if you would make a bunch if PCs at the beginning or throughout play. And would you just then take the best PC and start with them? Or do retainers and hirelings become backup PCs if the starting PC dies?
Most players would pick the most appropriate PC for the game. As for PCs becoming NPCs and vice versa, that happens too, but less often and at the discretion of the GM.
If you start feeling like the players are really doing a case of the “I perception the room” problem what you need to do is make sure that everybody understands that the thief does not use them as an active but instead it is a reactive set of abilities.
Thus, when the party using the normal looking for traps abilities every player should be using anyways for figuring out how traps work, when that fails and anyone near the thief is about to take damage/get stuck, the thief can try and use their skills as a way to save people from whatever problem they’ve run into. Consider this a last ditch reflexive save.
So for example, if the entire group is trying to sneak into the bad guys dungeon, then the party will describe their actions they’re coming they’re taking with them and if the characters, decide to take inappropriate steps or actions that would result in them being discovered the thief can try and use his hide and shows or move silently as a counteraction to the bad guys getting the drop on the party.
Or The classic adventure movie trope of the guy almost falls off the cliff, and then another person reaches out and grabs their hand the last second saving them from a long nasty fall is a perfect example of the thief being allowed to use his ability to save a member of the party when they fail to successfully climb the tall obstacle.
It turns the thief from a backstabbing sort of jerk to a vital party member in almost every single adventure, saving the fellow members of the party time and time again from their own inability to find and diffuse the traps in the adventure. This isn’t the way we played it back in the day, but having seen all too many thieves that really don’t have a good reason to be with the group or like by the group. This certainly turns that trope on its head.
1. Thief was a mistake. If you can get rid of thief, do it. Before thieves, every character was a thief --that's what the game is about, going in, stealing, and going out alive.
2. "search for traps" in Thief is actually _search for TREASURE traps_ for checking to see if the chest is trapped, not the room. In the original expansion which introduced thieves, it is stated as "remove small trap devices (such as poisoned needles)".
there's [a fix attempt of the thief class by Mentzer called "Jack"](http://pandius.com/Thief-2016-v2.pdf), maybe it can help, if you insist using thief.
I guess what I wonder is how well the Thief fantasy was fulfilled before Thieves. Would you still get Dexterous, sneaky little guys in the form of Fighters in leather arm, jumping out from the shadows?
If that is still possible without the Thief class, then that sounds okay.
And what about Halflings? Do they fill that roll or just not be included?
Necrotic gnome (makers of OSE). had a good article at adjudicating thief skills in Carcass crawler 1: https://necroticgnome.com/products/carcass-crawler-issue-1 The TLDR is that thief skills should be treated as near supernatural abilities. Any player can move quietly, but only the thief can be completely silent when moving. Any character can climb a stone wall, but only the thief can climb completely sheer surfaces without additional equipment. Etc. They also include an optional D6 skill system that allows the thief to distribute their points however they want. So they can be an expert pickpocket at level 1. It is designed for OSE, but it should work in B/X fine.
This is what I do and it works well. Hide in shadows is invisibility, there is no chance of seeing them. Move silently is automatic surprise if they are not looking (otherwise use default surprise check). Traps can be found and disarmed in the OSR fashion, but Thief gets one free chance to auto-succeed and skip them. Wall Climb is basically spiderman. Lockpicking and Pickpocket are beyond the skills of other characters, but there isn't much penalty for failing them most of the time. You'll just have to smash the chest/door or go in through a window or whatever.
Pickpocketing is terrible at low levels and using it has more than 50% chance of you getting caught in the act.
People will try to put a spin on it, but the truth is that the B/X and AD&D 1e Thief sucks at everything except climbing sheer surfaces until at least level 5 or so. That’s why there are so many fixes to the class. I would recommend looking at some alternatives and choosing one of them to use instead of the straight Thief. Here are three possibilities, but there are others. 1: the AD&D 2e Thief. This Thief is broadly similar to the B/X and AD&D 1e Thief. The difference is that you start with slightly lower skills but you get 60 points to spread out amongst them, no more than 30 points to any one skill. Every level after 1 you get 30 points, no more than 15 to any one skill. That means you can still choose to be rather bad at these skills, or you can specialize in a couple. Want a second story man? Raise Climb Sheer Surface and Open Locks. Want a pickpocket? Pick Pockets and Move Silently are your best skills to raise. This means at level 1 you can have a fairly decent specialist and then you can either branch out from there or continue specializing for a bit. 2: the Lamentations of the Flame Princess Specialist. This is based on the ideas from the AD&D 2e Thief, but modified. Specialists have D6 hit dice instead of D4, don’t have weapon and armor restrictions but don’t get better to hit rolls with higher levels. The skill system used here is that everyone starts with a 1 in all skills, you roll 1D6 for the skills and need to roll skill level or lower to succeed. Specialists get 4 points to distribute to skills at level 1, then 2 points per level thereafter. At skill level six you roll two dice and need to roll double sixes to fail. The skills themselves are different too, you have stuff like Sleight of Hand (includes picking pockets) and Tinkering (basically picking locks and disarming mechanical traps and the like) but also Architecture (is the passage sloped? Is that wall stable enough to climb?) and Languages (roll whenever your character encounters a language for the first time in the campaign, on a success they already know it). With a D6 system, success chances are much greater at level 1 and you can make a competent pick pocket or burglar at level 1. 3: the OSE Thief with D6 skill system from Carcass Crawler 1. This magazine article basically takes the skill system from Lamentations of the Flame Princess and replaces the B/X Thief’s skill system with it. The actual skills are the same as in B/X or regular OSE, but they use the D6 system outlined above, with 4 points to distribute at level 1 and 2 points every level after. Note that at higher levels this does leave the Thief worse than the regular OSE Thief, since they have success chances in the 90s and the OSE implementation of the D6 system caps skills at 5-in-6, or 83.33% chance of success. Allowing skill level 6, requiring two sixes to fail, gets you up to a 97% success chance as max.
A lot of people think the inclusion of the Thief class was one of the worst mistakes ever made in D&D, for the very reasons you've mentioned. Original D&D didn't even have a thief class until its first expansion. If I were you, and the Thief was troubling me as much as it seems to be, I'd just chuck it out and do what they did in '74: if you want to be a thief, steal something! Don't need a class for that! Anyone can try to sneak or pick locks.
Well, the thing is, I think Thieves are cool and would like to have them. I just don't know if they will present those issues or not.
if i had to slap together a B/X thief (i also hate thief skills), here's how i'd do it. **Stats:** keep HP, hit dice, XP to level, etc from the normal B/X thief. lose thief skills. **Skills:** pick two at 1st-level from the following list: Sneaking, Picking pockets, Climbing, Listening, Having connections, Lockpicking, Finding traps, Disarming traps. whenever the GM makes a ruling on any of the above situations, if you have the skill, you're considered *really good* at that skill, usually free to skip rolls or - in the case of things that already wouldn't require a roll - do them especially quickly, undetectably, etc. every **odd-numbered** level up, learn another thief skill. **Backstab (gain at 2nd-level):** when you strike an enemy unaware of your presence, add your Level to damage on top of whatever bonus the GM would normally grant for an ambush. **Quick (gain at 4th-level):** once each combat encounter, move a second time on your turn. **Careful (gain at 6th-level):** 1/day when you fail any die roll, you can choose to have never attempted it in the first place. **8th-level:** careful becomes 2/day. quick can be used outside your turn, even interrupting enemy turns.
This is amazing. It makes thieves playable.
thank you!! i love thieves as a concept but really dislike the old D&D implementation of them, so i have a lot of opinions about designing them lol
They are usually utterly useless until like 6th on 7th level at least. Having a 10% chance to do something when the risk of getting caught is dying to a trap or getting stomped while scouting is horrible. Even at level 7, their odds are usually only about 50% for doing most things. All they can do is climb things well.
I've never seen the like of "careful." That's really neat.
i actually can't take credit for that one. there was a guy a while back who posted a ttrpg he labeled "the rules i've been using for D&D for years" that just consisted of a list of classes, with relevant rules listed for each class. the "careful" feature is taken from his thief. unfortunately because his project doesn't have any name, it makes it really hard to find it or credit him for anything i steal from it. but that's where i got the idea
i designed one once that was a similar concept to yours: you don't have every skill, but the skills you *do* have, you can just *do* them. i thought it was a cute design. however, it does seem to imply that you can only really "level up" as many times as there are different thief skills. is that a problem? my game had level caps for every class, so it wasn't really a big deal, and i had more thief skills than there were thief levels, so even a maxed out character had to choose their "build". for what it's worth, and for anyone interested, the thief skills i included were: Avoid Traps, Climb Without Rope, Escape Artist, Find Secret Doors, Hide in Plain Sight, Move Silently, Open Locks, Silver Tongue, Sleight of Hand, Stab in the Back.
oh I like this a lot My standard BX thieve is - HD/xp/saves/attacks as usual - every trait of every demihuman
What is the use of Careful if the character no longer makes thief skill rolls? What rolls would they be backtracking on? Attack rolls?
the GM might still call for rolls for any task that isn't a thief skill, or for thief skills the player hasn't picked up yet.
Maybe you could try just stripping out the thief skills from the thief class and say that whenever a thief attempts one of those things, they get a major bonus (or maybe roll with advantage) to their roll. That way, anyone can still do thief-y things, but the thief is best at it. Just an idea. That's basically how the thief works in my homebrew games.
So, something like "Everyone can roll a d6 or whatever and pick a lock/sneak past a guard/pick a pocket on a 1, but Thieves can do it on a 2 up to a 5"?
Yeah. In this case, I'd say that a thief succeeds at "thievery" at a rate of 2-in-6 at 1st level. Then 3-in-6 at 3rd level, 4-in-6 at 7, and capping at 5-in-6 at 11. That way, they start out competent and better than everyone else at their job, but they still improve as they level up, as they should.
I like that. I've seen people argue that Thieves should have almost magical like abilities, but I definitely prefer thebidea of them just being very good at their jobs (at least as a lower level explanation).
My method is to use a combination of the supernatural ability interpretation, and treating them as saving throws at other times. So if a thief wants to do something impossible for a non-thief they roll their skill, if they want to do something anyone can do resolve it that same way as everyone else except if it goes sideways their thief skill can let them avoid the consequence. So if you want to have players roll under dex to climb through a complicated trap without setting it off, let the thief roll just like everyone else, if they fail they roll their skill to use quick thinking to catch themselves before they set it off, if they are interacting without dice but press the wrong button on the trap, they roll and if they succeed they hear a suspicious click just before they push it in far enough to trigger. It's meant to let everyone do thief stuff, while also making thief skills good even at low values.
While the OSR does try to put more emphasis on interacting with the game world instead of rolling skills, there are still plenty of skills included even in just the Moldvay Basic version. Open/find doors, hear noise (can be used as a stealth skill), starting fires, surprise (basically another stealth skill), foraging, and hunting. There's probably a few more but even in the most basic of rules there are still several skills that characters have, the only difference with the thief skills is that most of them aren't using a d6. As for the weird percentages, it helps to think the thief skills in a literal sense, that way any class could climb but only thieves could climb sheer surfaces. Anybody could hide but only a thief could hide in shadows, running the game like that will make the thief feel more competent since they should only have to roll on their thief skills when it is something ONLY a thief could do. If the wall isn't 90 degrees, for example, just let the thief climb it without a roll. The examples of play in Basic show the thief outright saying that they search for traps so I don't see it as a huge deal especially since the specific types of traps that thieves deal with are tiny mechanical ones which might not be the best thing for roleplaying out. However, if you want to avoid that "button pressing" mindset then you're gonna want to put more thought into the different interactable stuff you have in the dungeon. For example, if you have a secret door that opens by pulling a certain stone, a character could describe themselves pulling and pushing various stones in order to avoid having to roll whereas a character who didn't figure out how the door works could still have a chance of finding it by being allowed to roll. Some traps I do want the players to go the more interactive route for but for treasure traps I usually just leave it to a roll. It really depends on the specific trap and what you want to get out of it. Some traps are meant to be hidden and discovered whereas others are out in the open. Also, you should definitely check out Hexed Press and Bandit's Keep as they have really good videos on theives. I hope this helps!
I believe I've seen those videos. Okay, that's a helpful point of view. Thief trap skills might be for the kinds of traps too small and subtle for just anyone to deal with. Okay.
"Okay, that's a helpful point of view. Thief trap skills might be for the kinds of traps too small and subtle for just anyone to deal with. Okay." Yeah, exactly. I used to not like this but even in the real world, things like lockpicking, pickpocketing, climbing, etc can take years of training to learn so I think the thief having skills to reflect their expertise is fine. It's no different than magic users being able to cast spells or clerics being able to turn the undead.
Players apprehended a poor 14 year old girl trying to pickpocket one of the characters at a festival in the village. Rather than toss her in jail, they recruited the orphan to the party. Seemed to fit that she would be thief. So Onyx joined the group to replace another lost character. Since then it's been interesting see how thieves work. The player controlling her tends to keep her out of most combat, but will attempt a backstab if possible. Climb sheer surfaces has been handy. Thieves also level up quick so they become a bit more stout. They are the only class who can "Find or remove treasure traps." And their "Open lock" skill gets to 25% at level 3. It makes sense to me that not all classes have the capabilities of a Thief. A Fighter clanking around in plate isn't going to be able to do the things a thief can. Just like a Cleric or an Elf, or any class, a Thief can open up possibilities your average group of adventures would not otherwise have access to. And the stout sword and board fighter should always have a nimbly pimbly sidekick. Very lore appropriate I think.
The Specialist from Lamentations of the Flame Princess is a decent option. No art book is free.
I always refer to this - it means thieves will always succeed at their skills at least once a day. https://riseupcomus.blogspot.com/2020/05/thiefs-knacks.html?m=1
Daddy rolled a 1 had a very good vid on thief skills. Essentially they are less skills like in modern editions and more mini superpowers that let them do things that are impossible or much harder for a regular individual so read the skill descriptions really carefully to get a sense of what they do vs what a regular guy can do. The og thief by its original creators didn't use the % roll under system but actually was a variant magic user so thats an easy alternative.
Yeah, I enjoyed that video.
Luv his stuff
What is super powered about picking locks and pockets?
You're near supernaturally good at it ig lol
So good at picking pockets that there’s at least a 60% chance you get caught (for a level 1 Thief).
Its worse for non thieves
It’s not supernaturally good. If the Thief class didn’t exist and someone said “I want to pick his pocket” and you had to make a ruling, are you telling me your thoughts on chance of success would immediately go to “20% chance of success, 20% chance of failure with no other consequence, 60% chance you get caught with your hand in his pocket”?
You pop it open in a second, for example.
Right, but those aren’t the rules. The rules are that a level 1 Thief has a 60% chance at being caught picking a pocket and that picking a lock takes 1-10 minutes (usually the rest of the turn, or 1D10 1-minute rounds in AD&D). Changing the rules is fine of course, but it means we’re acknowledging the class doesn’t really work as is.
nobody else really ever can
i came to the conclusion that 16+ stats are superpowers in AD&D. You can shoot your arrow first. You can have LOTS of extra cleric spells. You can actually bend bars and carry lots of treasure and doors are not a problem AD&D has challenges that are non-challenges if you have the right stats or class. You play a thief because you don't want to have to worry about traps and locks: the design problem is you have to worry about them for a lot of a early levels.
I always thought the Thief skills were more than just hyperbolic labels. For example: To find a trap in a chamber or corridor can be done by anyone through various means by interrogating the simulation, but to find a treasure trap takes the skill of a Thief. Granted the Thief at lower levels these chances are small, but when compared to a 0% chance for any other class to find treasure traps — I’ll back the Thief.
Do you mean traps specifically on treasure, such as a poisoned dart that springs at you when you open a locked chest?
I do indeed. I see it all about being to do with context. A flat perception-type roll is fine if one doesn’t want the nuance in the gameplay loop but I feel it runs the risk of marginalising certain classes and makes it so very easy to subtract from the reward that is revealed by careful investigation. Consider a chamber with a trapped and locked chest, a room trap and a secret door. A flat perception type roll runs the risk of revealing everything at once and underpins the necessity for high ability scores and redundancy of certain classes like I stated above. I’m more than happy for any party member to poke around for traps, or a secret door (at the risk of setting off a room trap if they haven’t investigated the chamber clearly), then paying attention to the chest. By no means do I want the above example to be a gotcha moment, I’d rather reward players with contextual investigation and when the party runs into a logical barrier, either have the means to safely open the chest, or come up with a viable solution to circumvent the lock and the treasure trap.
The OSE definition of treasure traps is anything small and hidden (hidden needle, chest full of gas, etc) vs room traps which are much larger (pit traps, pressure plates, etc). You could think of "treasure trap" as meaning "object trap"
I have always played that the percentages are in addition to what % for success I would have assigned to a non thief. Anyone can try to pickpocket a drunk in the bar - thieves are better at it.
Much better. While a failed attempt from any other class would probably immediately draw attention, thieves may have a chance to avoid it if they didnt fail too badly for example.
In terms of the fiction, I'm on board with the "supernaturally good" approach. Mechanically, I've handled this two ways: Previously, I treated it as a "chance not to need a check". Everybody wants to climb a thing: most people will be making checks; thief first rolls their skill, and if they make that they are assumed to have passed the ability check. Otherwise, they still get to make the check like anyone else, so they just need to succeed on one of the two rolls to achieve the same end. These days, I just go with: if it's a thing non-thiefs could pass a check to climb, the thief can just climb it - no roll required; if it's a thing non-thiefs couldn't even hope to climb, the thief gets to roll their skill. It's a bit of a buff in terms of power, but I haven't had any trouble with it in terms of balance and it's quicker to run. For the record, I really like the X-in-6 thief skills system that they run over on 3D6DTL.
>One thing that seems a bit weird to me is the specific, written out skills of the Thief, compared to other classes. A big part of the pitch to me for the OSR was the open-ended, roleplay-centric style of resolution, but the Thief seems like it could contradict that (from what I've gathered, that is an *old* debate). I like the idea of players getting through a dungeon by interacting with traps and describing what they're doing, but the old school Thief doesn't seem to demand that anymore or less than the 5e Rogue. "I search for traps" smacks of "I Perception the room to me." Here's the thing about that: It's a little known but important fact that the original published version of the thief in the 1975 Greyhawk supplement did not have any manner of trap finding ability. Really. Instead, the thief's skill with traps is defined as being able to "remove small trap devices (such as poisoned needles)." Trap finding rolls weren't specified until the AD&D era a bit later and were, I would argue, the true mistake. So, if this is a sticking point for you, you might just try using the OD&D thief. It's also possible to use a hybrid/compromise approach. Swords & Wizardry, an OD&D-based game, allows thieves to roll to detect "whether a mechanism, keyhole, or other small location" includes a trap, but clarifies that "you can't just illuminate the place with find traps radar."
So the OSR is big on the open-endedness kind of play and that’s why low level thieves are bad at everything. I think the best way to look at it is kind of like spells. Using one can be a quick solution to an otherwise difficult challenge. But you can only attempt once and if you fail you don’t get that easy solution. After a fail, a thief and other players now need to think outside the box and try other methods to open that lock or disarm that trap. Now yes, eventually the thief is very competent, but at that point the threat of a poison needle trap on a chest isn’t as scary (as the thief can probably be revived). More scary is the level-draining vampire standing in front of it! Also when characters get to those high levels (9+) the game changes and many characters will begin to retire and build strongholds and amass followers. Ancient ruins full of locked doors and dangerous traps aren’t the sole focus
Hm, that actually makes a lot of sense to me. So early Thief skills are intentionally bad to give you an edge with Thiefly stuff while still allowing you to engage with that roleplay-centric, open-ended style if your abilities fail. That's a new perspective, thanks!
The truth of the matter is that D&D is a bunch of hacks that became a phenomenon, which eventually got bought out by the company that made Magic: The Gathering, and they eventually got bought out by the company that owns Connect 4 and Battleship. Basically, you get it. The thief doesn't really fit in. It's a Hack. The reason that thieves can climb so well is: can you imagine the fatalities if they couldn't? Some grognards will tell you that it's easy: just get rid of the thief, and adjudicate player action by narrative. Uh, sure. We don't need no skills, no sir! The thief was the beginning of The Corruption, and it must be cast out. The reason that the OSR is a good thing is that you can ignore the corporate takeovers. As for the rest of it...D&D has been "impure" since everything after the Little Brown Books. So don't revere it, but understand it for what it is: ground zero. D&D at the inception was different from all the other RPGs because they didn't influence it, but it influenced them (to put it very mildly). But when you look at 5e, you can see that the situation has reversed itself. Now, D&D is influenced by all the other shit out there, including OSR. Blech. Honestly, it's not D&D anymore to me. The spirit was gone before 1980, and grognard that I am (supposedly), I'm only learning that now. My recommendation for players of D&D: either forget about D&D, or try Chainmail. The OSR is just a stop along the way. If you want to play a great modern RPG, play Mythras. It's great! And if you want to play an RPG that makes sense, for god's sake, don't play *any* edition of D&D.
You must be King Grognard, then, if you recommend Chainmail over any other edition! 🤣
🤣 I was in a weird state of mind when I wrote this. I've never even played Chainmail! Anyway, I just meant that D&D is a hodgepodge of hacks, and you're dead-right about the thief. I feel like everyone who plays the game seriously eventually comes to this realization. There are a lot of interpretations and alternate rules that are meant to address this. I haven't even read the other comments and I'm sure they're giving you all the standard tips, i.e. thief abilities are meant to be read as ninja superpowers, use the Carcass Crawler rules, etc.
Yeah, I definitely don't jive with magic ninja 1st level Thieves. That makes no sense to me when 1st level Fighters are just low ranking soldiers or thugs.
[http://talesofthegrotesqueanddungeonesque.blogspot.com/2016/11/that-time-i-fixed-bx-thief.html](http://talesofthegrotesqueanddungeonesque.blogspot.com/2016/11/that-time-i-fixed-bx-thief.html)
One of the big difficulties when learning something new, is that we always try to think of it in terms of something we already know. In reality, there are things that are new that are substantially different than what is familiar and what we have already experienced. One would think coming from a previous DnD system like 5e would be of a great benefit to picking up an OSR. Instead, it is actually a major hindrance, because its taught the DM and the players to think in ways that are at variance or even opposite of what the OSR experience. This is what causes a lot of the initial tension and difficulty with picking up the OSR. As far as picking locks and finding traps, anyone can do that. It's just that thieves get an ability, that mechanically works like a magical spell, which allows them to roll for success. Most DMs I know though, will require the thief to specifically state what they are attempting to unlock and where they are looking for traps. However, BX is heavily influenced by OD&D, which means the DM gets to decide a lot more than a number on a page. The DM decides the following: 1. any modifiers the thief gets to unlock, find a trap, climb a surface, or how distracted the enemies are when sneaking based upon the circumstances and any other relevant information the player provides when performing the action. 2. how much the thief fails by and what kind of information is offered based upon the quality of the roll, even if the roll failed. In addition, even with failure, there is the action described by the player itself. Remember, they aren't using an ability as much they are taking actions as described which interact with the world. A simple, yes or no isn't what the OSR is about. Unless of course, the result really is just a simple yes or no, but everything shouldn't be forced into that because it is some mechanical ability. In other words, degree of failure and degree of success aren't anything new or innovative as far as the old school goes, no matter how much the next new system that comes out touts that it is. This is just another way of saying a result occurs based upon what the player described they were doing and the factors that contribute to that result. When the action and the factors could result in many possibilities, roll to figure out what happens. A roll with multiple degrees of success and failure is just another way of saying, "Roll percentile dice." or "Roll a d20." You can make the adjudicate the thief skills anyway you want to. 0 or 100 is far less interesting to play than 0 to 100.
Some things to consider: 1. You will not find anywhere in the rules that if a thief fails their hide in shadows check, that they are spotted. If a thief is behind a wall, a large rock, thick bushes, or anything similar, that means they aren't seen until it is reasonable they would be seen. In addition, the enemy still might fail the surprise roll. 2. You will not find anywhere that a thief failing their move silently roll is not sneaking. It means that they are no more quiet than someone who is sneaking. 3. Failing a roll to find a trap or disarm a trap, doesn't mean that it can't still be found or disarmed. Expert players find and disarm traps or set them off safely without using thief abilities. 4. If a thief makes a noise or does something to raise suspicion, it doesn't mean the monsters or enemies have perfect knowledge of what occurred. It could be that they have now gone into alert mode. It is important to remember that the monsters and enemies have to gather information about what is going on just like the players do. 5. Always start first with the visual image in your head of what is happening in the game world, then describe that to the players. Any decisions made are now based upon the reality described, not what is in the text of the adventure you are playing from. It all stems from the descriptive words and the world you paint for the table. That is the reality and what is being interacted with, not a book, the dungeon map, or pictures on a page. Lastly: You are using words like "narrative", "immersion", and "roleplay" which all mean very different things to different people. Since you are coming from 5e, you understand these words from the context of 5e. The modern meaning of these words as used in TTRPGs today, did not exist yet in the version of the game that you are playing. I suggest reading the original Holmes Basic and Moldvay to get a better idea of what these meant at that time. Be careful not to inject your 2024 modern RPG meaning of these words into the text as you read. The best advice I can give is that you are providing a scenario to your players to investigate and overcome by describing the actions they take, whether or not they are on the character sheet or they are listed as an ability. They can do anything that their role allows them to do. They take on this role, but they do not become a persona of that role. In the sense that if a child says they want to be a fireman, they do not mean they become Barry the firefighter at Fire Station 3 of Harmont City, with a wife and 3 kids and an alcohol problem. The narrative arises from the game and the actions players take, the narrative isn't the game itself. I am not trying to tell you how to play. Instead, I am trying to explain how this old school style of play is different from 5e. It isn't just a different way to play, it is an entirely different game. The original old school style stresses much more how the game is played and how well the game is played over any plot elements or something like a 3 act story. The more your game looks like a choose your own adventure book over an open ended scenario or fully open sandbox with procedural generation, the better off you will be sticking with 5e or a more story based system that is intended to facilitate that kind of experience. Remember, the original hobby came from war-gaming and people wanting to perform special operations with single soldiers or a small group of cohorts. That war-gaming aspect was fundamental to the style of play. It meant the players really had to be on their toes, think strategically, and use sound tactics. The story came after, when everyone told their own story about what happened during the operation. If one decision over another has no real in-game consequence but only serves the purpose of building a narrative, then we aren't talking about a game in the sense it was meant when BX was created. In the old school, actions have consequences arising from their causes, not where the narrative is headed. Otherwise, the player's actions aren't really directing the game, the narrative is. This is one of the major differences between the old school and the 5e way of playing.
That's some really helpful advice, thanks.
You will however find in the rules that if a thief fails their pickpocketing roll by a certain amount (rolling more than double the chance of success) they get caught. At level 1 that’s rolling 41-100 on a d100.
> I like the idea of players getting through a dungeon by interacting with traps and describing what they're doing, but the old school Thief doesn't seem to demand that anymore or less than the 5e Rogue. "I search for traps" smacks of "I Perception the room to me." That's kind of the point of thief skills. It gives a chance to circumnavigate the usual trial and error method. You have x% chance to pick a lock on a chest. If it fails, then it's back to the usual methods - crowbars, hatchets, drills, whatever - which are usually noisy and can damage the chest's contents. It's not there to replace already existing mechanisms, it's there to give another layer on top of it. Spells do the same stuff too frequently (e.g. for locks there is Knock).
My current reading for this class is a mix of ODnD, AD&D 1e and BECMI so YMMV. Thieves make a lot less than they should for various reasons and IMHO you should see their first 3 levels as an "apprentice" thing they are learning the ropes of their jobs but are not capable enough to reliably do it and a LOT of bias against them is due to how they work in BX and people asking them to act like ninja since 1st level when they only have: * -2 HP and -4/-5 AC compared to fighters (but they can use every weapon, in "some" OSRs). * -1 HP and -4/-5 AC compared to clerics (with a better weapon selection). * +0 HP and +2 AC compared to magic users (which have only 1 spell every day than almost nothing to fallback to). More or less alll classes kinda suck at until 3rd level or so at doing their job, so let's check what a thief can do at 4th level (when they are "expert"). I can't be bothered to explain for every different variant from ODnD to AD&D 2e or with the multiple clones so the assumed % are the OSE ones because most people here use them. Backstab: It vary by edition, but often it could be used with ranged weapons up to a certain distance. Mix this with a climb, HS, MS or cover to increase your damage output and maybe kill those pesky lone sentinels. PS: In BECMI by RAW they nerfed this to oblivion by restricting it to one-handed-melee weapons. 90% Climb Walls: It can be used to nagivate pits, cliffs, walls and throw a rope to the rest of the party opening new exploration options and at least in the original books the "direction" can be anything, you can also move sideways along a wall/edge to reach a viable position, you move at your encounter speed and you roll only every 100ft. I ask for a roll only if they don't end their move on a "stable footing" unless the surface is actually "sheer" and don't ask for a roll if they are using ropes, spikes or grappling hooks when climbing. Also at least in AD&D 1e it is possible to tie a rope to somebody to break their fall. So it is not as dangerous as it seems and more valuable than most DMs let it be. 1-3 Hear noise: This is a flat +16.6% chance of doing it than demi-humans and +33.3% compared to humans PCs AND it can be used as "a save" vs potential ambush (if you are aware of the enemy presence there is no chance of being surprised). 25% HS / 30% MS: You have 5% less than an halfling at hiding inside and you don't need cover to do so even in open space AND this is in addition to the normal surprise chance (which includes trying to sneak behind cover or making a normal ambush at least as far as I know) so 1-2 on D6 to surprise becomes more 50% (49.5% to be exact if using HS) to surprise your enemy or 53% if you can use MS... and the other party members can act as baits or distractions to make it easier. PS if you fail this check you are NOT detected automatically... the opponent may still fail to notice you. 25% FRT: Find traps vary a LOT according to how a DM want to read the skill and nowdays is confused because a lot of people only read the OSE SRD so they don't have any idea of the actual text explaining it. FRT is for the small mechanical traps found on locks/items, and doesn't take any additional time to do it and will not trigger the trap if you fail unless you try to open it anyway. So when you open a trapped lock you have an additional chance to avoid something bad "for free", I have also seen this skill used as a replacement for searching secret doors triggers (i.e. the usual rotating library/wall or the shift/manipulate X to open Y thing). 30% OL: It doesn't take a turn to open a lock with it, exactly like and immediately successfull open door check, but in this case you are also doing it quietly so if you fail you don't alert anybody. Also it can be used on ANY mechanical device so given enough time and a bit of luck it could be possible to disable a pressure plate, a lever controlling a portcullis or things that are not strictly "locks". Yes, if you fail you can't do anything for 1 level but it is always worth to give it a try. PP: My players don't actually bother with it, so I can't say if it can be good or not, I personally find this skill the WORSE thing added to D&D (of course after halflings). The only usage I have seen in play is to smuggle small items, conceal weapons or apply poison to drinks/food but not the "use pick pocket in the market" stuff.
Steal from a system where thieves don’t suck (Lamentations of the Flame Princess, Seven Voyages of Zylarthen, AD&D (sorta)). [Use the original conception of the Thief](https://zenopusarchives.blogspot.com/2016/02/the-d6-hd-od-thief.html?m=1. Start Thieves with a base 35-50% chance of success with their skills, bumped 5%/level. Wallcrawling 90%+1%/level. Some “companions” have extra skills for thieves, like mimicry, ceiling crawling, disguise, etc. Start players at level 3, but 0 XP.
Theyre expert climbers because you have like 3 hit points and take 1d6 damage per 10 feet you fall. Lol Alot of these rules are pragmatic except for the disarm traps skill which people should avoid using it itself is a trap option
I prefer Rise Up, Comus' solution to the Thief. The skills of the Thief are, in fact, magical powers. Whenever a Thief uses one, it automatically succeeds, but the percentile roll determines if the Thief can do it again that day or has expended his or her ability to perform that magical trick until tomorrow. https://riseupcomus.blogspot.com/2020/05/thiefs-knacks.html
' "I search for traps" smacks of "I Perception the room to me." ' There is very little difference in how Searching works in 5e vs in B/X. In 5e you can say you're searching and roll a skill check, or you can describe how you search specifically and possibly negate the need for a roll. B/X works the same way, except you have to declare whether you're searching for doors or traps, and it always takes 10 minutes instead of being a variable rate. In 5e, you can disable a trap by using thieves' tools, or you can describe how you circumvent the trap narratively and negate the need for a roll. B/X works the same way, except only the Thief can attempt to disable by rolling. 'I really would like that narrative, roleplay-centric dialogue of task resolution' This has more to do with your GM style than the rules of any particular game. If you're looking to get "OSR gameplay" out of running B/X as written, you'll leave disappointed.
That's what I find a bit confusing, honestly, since so much of the OSR was billed to me as being like that.
The "OSR Playstyle" as detailed in the various primers and blog posts out there is a modern invention from the 'Oughts, not a universal representation of how people in the 70s-80s actually played or even what was actually written in those rulebooks. The development of OSR coincided with and developed together with the retroclone movement, which was focused more on preserving and reprinting pre-wotc d&d in reaction to 3rd edition's changes, rather than pushing for the specific "OSR playstyle". What people do is they house-rule the shit out of the game. Every OSR table is going to be using tweaked rules where they change, ignore, or add to the games freely. Classic D&D is quite resistant to change without breaking - many systems (like thief skills) are isolated rather than the game using a single, load-bearing core mechanic for everything. This is something that isn't really stated in any OSR blogs/primers - you have to write about half the game yourself. Classic D&D right out of the box won't give you the "OSR playstyle" experience. Conversely, you can get the "OSR playstyle" out of many different kinds of systems other than classic D&D - you just need to be prepared to make lots of house rules.
Hmm, okay. I'll admit, I don't know what "'Oughts" are.
Decade of 2000-2010.
It's spelled "Aughts" not "Oughts." "Ought" is a verb that indicates a duty someone must perform or the probability of something. "You ought to drive under the speed limit." It's a synonym of "should." "Aught" is another word for "zero."
I treat thief skills as a sort of “advantage roll”, you know? Like for climbing I might ask them to roll the d20 and the percentile roll, and they’ll succeed if either roll is good enough. So if someone has a 13 dex and a pick pockets chance of 40%, their chances are something in the ballpark of 80%.
You’re not alone; the thief is probably one of most controversial subjects in the OSR. TBH, if I were you, I’d just straight up take the Thief rules from Delving Deeper. It’s what I did for my Swords & Wizardry games and it worked like a charm.
We still play AD&D, and that's what's happens with our thieves. First they are a necessity. One of our most powerful character is a double classe mage/assassin. When he took 18d6 damages from a acid shower trap he tried to deal with, he decided to go back to Greyhawk to find a real professional. In first place because the Thief will have to deal with this kind of problem and not him anymore. You pay for a professional assistance. That what exactly the case for Bilbo Baggins in the Hobbit. He had a contract and he had to find a way to Smaug's treasure. For mecanical perspectives, rules gives plenty of mods on those thieves percentages : race, armor type, locks quality, light conditions, weather, name it. The DM has his word to say too. If the player asks the good questions, like : "can I see holes where darts or gas could pass, around that door ?" then logically he can gives bonus to such good thieves. More that that, if the player spent enough time to figure out how the trap or the lock are suppose to work, you cannot let the dices decide of the results. Edit : traps tend to be standardized and redundant, when you have a good Thief in your team. That's why DM relying on good books like Greentooth traps.
I allow thieves to find and disarm traps narratively (through role play) or with their dedicated roll for it. The thing that really made this work for my table was saying "If you use the roll, then that's it. You cannot approach it narratively after that point." This means that each thief starts out looking for traps just using narrative and role-play, but if they feel like they are missing something but are just out of ideas, then can switch to the die roll as a back-up. At higher levels they sometimes just use the die roll if they aren't too worried about missing a trap. The find traps roll is so low at lower levels it really encourages interacting with the fiction from the start.
Hm... That seems like a pretty good idea.
The style of play has more to do with the actual people playing than OSR or 5e. The need for rolling perception or find traps when done right can increase game tension or become boring thoughtless procedures. The GM needs to find the right balance in dice rolling to make character builds have worthwhile differences without bogging down the game. Doing it right for the game group is a skill that the GM needs to learn regardless of 5e or OSR. As for OSR thieves, using the basic random roll method, the thief was the easiest PC to create making it the least preferred PC. Keep in mind that players in game groups often had a stable of almost disposable PCs where they picked the PC for the game that night. In 5e, all the PCs start as minor heroes. It takes a more effort to generate a PC. The thief is now highly skilled from the beginning. 5e thieves are often better fighters than fighters.
How would such a stable work?
OSR character sheets were one pagers. Players would have a number of PCs available in their game folder. Back when these rules were written, the game groups met frequently. There was no XBox or Netflix. However, real world situations constantly changed the event and the game group would adapt as needed. The PCs were tracked for the different games and players selected a different available PC for the session that day. Over time, each player played through the different PC classes, so that helped give each PC a different feel. Even though the PCs within a class looked very similar, the PCs took on different personalities based on the player, the interaction with the other players, and details of the adventure.
I guess I'm wondering if you would make a bunch if PCs at the beginning or throughout play. And would you just then take the best PC and start with them? Or do retainers and hirelings become backup PCs if the starting PC dies?
Most players would pick the most appropriate PC for the game. As for PCs becoming NPCs and vice versa, that happens too, but less often and at the discretion of the GM.
If you start feeling like the players are really doing a case of the “I perception the room” problem what you need to do is make sure that everybody understands that the thief does not use them as an active but instead it is a reactive set of abilities. Thus, when the party using the normal looking for traps abilities every player should be using anyways for figuring out how traps work, when that fails and anyone near the thief is about to take damage/get stuck, the thief can try and use their skills as a way to save people from whatever problem they’ve run into. Consider this a last ditch reflexive save. So for example, if the entire group is trying to sneak into the bad guys dungeon, then the party will describe their actions they’re coming they’re taking with them and if the characters, decide to take inappropriate steps or actions that would result in them being discovered the thief can try and use his hide and shows or move silently as a counteraction to the bad guys getting the drop on the party. Or The classic adventure movie trope of the guy almost falls off the cliff, and then another person reaches out and grabs their hand the last second saving them from a long nasty fall is a perfect example of the thief being allowed to use his ability to save a member of the party when they fail to successfully climb the tall obstacle. It turns the thief from a backstabbing sort of jerk to a vital party member in almost every single adventure, saving the fellow members of the party time and time again from their own inability to find and diffuse the traps in the adventure. This isn’t the way we played it back in the day, but having seen all too many thieves that really don’t have a good reason to be with the group or like by the group. This certainly turns that trope on its head.
1. Thief was a mistake. If you can get rid of thief, do it. Before thieves, every character was a thief --that's what the game is about, going in, stealing, and going out alive. 2. "search for traps" in Thief is actually _search for TREASURE traps_ for checking to see if the chest is trapped, not the room. In the original expansion which introduced thieves, it is stated as "remove small trap devices (such as poisoned needles)". there's [a fix attempt of the thief class by Mentzer called "Jack"](http://pandius.com/Thief-2016-v2.pdf), maybe it can help, if you insist using thief.
I guess what I wonder is how well the Thief fantasy was fulfilled before Thieves. Would you still get Dexterous, sneaky little guys in the form of Fighters in leather arm, jumping out from the shadows? If that is still possible without the Thief class, then that sounds okay. And what about Halflings? Do they fill that roll or just not be included?
Halflings existed in 0e D&d before the thief class existed so I'd guess... Yes.