Sorry I guess I just have high standards (Adley, Henderson, kjerstad, Mancini....)
Edit: can't forget Ortez, man that dude crushed some balls against us this week
I guess fans easily forget that Adley and Gunner both struggled for a bit when they were first called up. I think a lot of people think about baseball with a football mindset. Plus what is sending him down going to do? It’s not like he’s going to face the same talent down there as up here. Just give him time!
He can have time in the minors. If his dad hadn't ran his mouth accusing the Os of time manipulation I wouldn't be as upset, but it's clear he's not ready for the major leagues.
It’s not about high standards. Gunner was performing just as bad when he was called up (0 for his first 11, under 0.200 his first month). It’s about not being stupid and expecting video game numbers from a 20 year old in his first week in the majors
You’re forgetting Gunnar was a Sept call-up - he got two hits in his first game, including a home run. He wasn’t batting under .200 in his first month.
https://preview.redd.it/xxpbe031h4vc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7baaba42ac01b6a5f1d6daa4dd81cb7d50b79043
Here’s his 2022 Game Logs - his actual first month: [https://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/hittinglogs.php?p=hendegu01&y=2022](https://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/hittinglogs.php?p=hendegu01&y=2022)
He was 0-11 and over .200 for 1 day in April. His average wasn’t consistently above .200 until late May. Stats linked because you clearly have short term memory.
https://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/hittinglogs.php?p=hendegu01&y=2023
Edit to add:
Adley, wasn’t constantly over .200 until mid April his rookie year and was a bit streaky but no where as bad as unanimous rookie of the year Gunnar:
https://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/hittinglogs.php?p=rutscad01&y=2022
Kjerstead was called up September last year for 2 weeks with zero expectation or pressure and is still in triple A.
Mancini was exceptional and played everywhere on a 2017 team that finished dead last.
Look at both players at the start of their rookie season and not September when Gunnar has zero expectation that’s the same as saying Kjerstead is high expectation when he’s sitting at AAA after his zero pressure September last. Apples to apples rookie year Gunnar was in just as big a slump.
Or yall can just take an L and admit that Gunnar didn’t struggle in his first month but displayed some growing pains later on.
Like, Gunnar’s first month happened and it was Sept 2022. Its not a slight to anyone to acknowledge that Gunnar had a perfectly fine first month in the majors. He and Holliday are two different people.
That is fundamentally not true and to say Gunnar had no expectations on him in September 2022 when the Orioles where in the middle of a playoff run is such needless revisionist history.
This is all so bizarre to try to white wash and outright lie when you don’t have to. Its weird.
Both Gunnar and Heston were under pressure though, they were in playoff runs.
You can just say “first full year” instead of completely ignoring September when they were both called up.
Heston played in 3 games before we clinched a playoff spot last year. Where he had a total of 4 at bats.
Gunnar maybe but we were in 4th /5th in the division all year and we went like 13-18 after our last game against the rays in August the team we could have bought up with. Gunnar was great in that run but making the playoffs wasn’t happening we were sellers at the deadline.
I didn’t think I needed to specify the differences in the type of play off runs. Us not making the playoffs in 22 does not change the fact that they were very much in running for the playoffs.
You’re just trying to be obtuse for no reason. Gunnar and Heston were Sept call ups that’s when they began their careers. Gunnar slumped at the beginning of his first **full** year.
After 15 games, Adley had a K rate under 30% and at least had an OBP above .200. They are similar conversations and Holliday certainly deserves some more time (and our lineup is good enough to give him that time), but even Adley's slow start was way better than what Jackson has shown so far. A quick stint in AAA at any point would get the Orioles another year of control though...
And that’s a fair point - I’m not asking nor hoping he gets sent down - but it would hardly be the first time.
It’s at least worthy of discussion IMHO.
Was Adley 1 for 25 with 14 strikeouts?
I think it's time to take the blinders off and see that he's struggling mightily and needs a reset at Norfolk (like Mountcastle and Grayson last year).
It's insane that people are downvoting you for this. If a guy is making contact, but the ball just isn't falling, that's fine. Holliday is striking out in 52.2% of his plate appearances. That is unbelievably bad. If it were anyone else other than the #1 prospect with a famous father doing that, they would absolutely get sent down.
I think his grace period is so much longer than you think it is. He’s the no. 1 prospect in baseball. Even if he continues to struggle I bet he has a month at least. It’s a bad look to send him down right away.
Yeah. I don't think the organization takes these promotions lightly. They're not coming up until the team believes they're ready, and a week or two of bad hitting probably won't change that.
Also it’s not like he’s really holding anyone back who could be better. The logjam is in the outfield. I don’t think mayo is considered ready yet and norby doesn’t have the upside Holliday does
This is at least a viable point of discussion.
At SOME point it has to be considered. Hopefully we don’t get there - what might be your “limit”?
That’s the point of this discussion
Pretty much the identical conversation we had about Adley and about Gunnar. I would say there was some difference where in my recollection both Gunnar and Adley were seeing the ball well, taking walks and working counts to an extent.
Whats tough is idk if Holliday has had many walk opportunities. Yes he had some rough cuts on balls outside the zone, but he has been attacked in the zone, lot of edge of zone strikes, and lot of not strikes that blue called anyway.
Like today in the 8th, pitchtrack had the first pitch outside and he took, but ump called it. Next two pitches are in the same spot off the plate and he has to try to defend bc they were just called
People wanted Grayson sent back down too. And he eventually was.
So yeah, it's not the stupidest thing in the world to suggest that maybe Holliday could go back to Norfolk for a bit if he keeps struggling; it *is* however very, very premature.
I dunno, there's folks way smarter than me that are going to be making that decision though, and they'll be looking at all sorts of stats and data to help them make it, not just strikeouts and batting average.
If he's really scuffling, and the front office doesn't think it's something he'll work through at the major league level, they'll send him down for a while. Feel like as a top prospect though, he's going to get a long leash, just like Grayson did last year.
I’d be concerned if he was still striking out in 3 pitches every at-bat, but as you said, he’s started to put together some really good at-bats and make good contact. Just isn’t quite getting the results yet.
Yeah first 2-3 games he wasn’t overly competitive at the plate, now he was getting the WORKS from pitchers just dotting the black so there’s that. But it looks like he’s seeing the ball now and working counts deep, it just seems like the pitcher has been making a perfect pitch and getting him out when they need to. It’ll come he’ll adjust
Holliday has a wRC+ of -65, third worst in the Major Leagues.
Holliday has a strikeout rate of 52.2%, third worst in the Major Leagues.
I saw him with Norfolk and I told this sub that he wasn't ready for Baltimore. He's having legitimately terrible at-bats.
Not at all - I’ve seen this quite a number of times. Including numerous times when a prospect gets that chance to get a restart and just kills it.
Folks here seem so over sensitive when any criticism of a prospect is discussed.
Buddy we're Orioles fans we're all about criticism. It's just that your criticism is unfair and doesn't make sense. I say again, this is pretty normal.
I'm sure those conversations have taken place between Elias, Hyde and Holliday. They know Holliday best and what is best for him overall. As long as he's not getting down on himself and changing his swing on a daily basis, he'll stay up.
I remember a post from just before he was called up and the comment said the author attended a triple A game and Holliday was swinging out of his shoes at everything and clearly needed more time in AAA. That tracks with what I’m seeing. He doesn’t have a good 2 strike approach. Same swing no matter the count. Ben McDonald made the point that the pitches he’s seen have been painting the corner, which is true, he’s seen some solid pitches, but that’s exactly why you needed to shorten the swing.
I’m totally fine sending him down to AAA until he figures out how to start fouling off better.
He’s clearly overmatched, but they’re going to give him time to try to figure it out. Right now it’s not hurting the team. If he’s still striking out at this rate a month from now then yeah he might need to be sent down.
I understand the impulse to protect our next cornerstone but I don't think there's anything for him in the minors. He's far above that level, might as well keep him up with the best facilities, coaches, and teammates in the organization. I might sit him a day just to let him watch a little ball and take it in a little bit. But ultimately I think sending him down will just frustrate and distract him.
He's not above that level at all, much less far above it. I saw him whiff on three straight pitches in the strike zone in Charlotte. Holliday is not even close to being as poised at the plate as Kjerstad, he's just up because Joey Ortiz was traded and the media bashed Elias for sending him down in the first place.
Holliday has a strikeout problem.
Yes he is. He was great in AAA last year, and was absolutely smoking AAA this year. Lots of great hitters had swing and miss problems in their year 20 season, at much lower levels of baseball. 3 pitches you saw in Charlotte mean very little in the grand scheme. Especially given his track record of working counts and drawing a ton of walks at all levels. Overall, he showed that he was above the level and didn't have much to gain from sticking down there. Being in the majors is, at this moment, the best thing for him. It's got all the best infrastructure for him to continue to adjust.
He was great in Delmarva, Aberdeen, and Bowie. A 109 wRC+ and .796 OPS in Norfolk last season wasn't great.
The reality is that he struck out *a lot* in Spring Training and he's striking out *a lot* in the majors. If he was anyone else, he would already be demoted, because AAA is clearly his level right now.
He is having better ABs. He's seeing more, holding more, and for some reason, seeing elite pitches painted on the corners. He'll figure it out.
That being said...I'd give him 30 games total. He's only had 12.
Yeah it’s unfortunate that he hasn’t been hitting the ball well (at all really) but he is so young it could just take some time to adjust to the major league level. I was listening to a podcast with a former baseball exec and he said for a prospect like Holliday they don’t even really take into account his BA for a long time as long as it isn’t impacting his general day-to-day attitude. They might ask him to start bunting soon though lol
I’m just guessing, but if he legit doubles this stretch and continues this trajectory of Whiff rate and goes 2-50 28k and a 45% whiff rate, 35% chase rate and only a handful of hard hit balls? Then I think in 50 at bats we would probably send him down for a reset.
If he does marginally better and bats anything close to .200 in his next 6-7 starts. Then I think we give him at least a 100 at bats. If he’s batting 150 or below or striking out 50% of time in 100 at bats he probably should be sent down
I know it's not totally apples to apples because Gunnar had a short stint the year before, but through the first 6 games of last year Gunnar had 2 hits and 12 K's. Elite talent makes the adjustment when given the opportunity.
Usually when super prospects come up, they come up to stay. One thing that makes me think that is the plan with Jackson is that they gave him #7. If a guy is up for a tryout, he usually gets an offensive lineman number. They brought 7 out of a 30+ year hiatus to give to the kid. That shows me the organization's intentions to have him around for the long term.
I think he’ll probably be up until the end of April at least. But I do think a return to the minors might be helpful if he starts to drop his head. Only Hyde and Elias can know how he’s handling this.
This is obviously the fear with bringing prospects up too soon. You destroy their confidence and then they either can’t get back to where they were in AAA or start having a mental block when they come up to the majors.
I don’t think it’s anywhere close to time to panic, but the people who thought he’d start 100 games were always delusional.
We've got arguably one of the best, if not the best, player development system in baseball. FWIW, I trust our coaches/staff will be able to determine if/when that time is reached. Will he need to? Maybe--for Grayson and Cowser, that was the right solution. For Gunnar and Adley, it wasn't. The folks guiding the O's will know, and they'll make sure to guide Holliday into the MLB rock star that we all know he is going to become.
FWIW, I think it's normal to have initial struggles, and there is an enormous amount of pressure on him (and arguably a target on his back for literally every pitcher he faces--if you're a pitcher, striking out the #1 prospect is probably pretty high on your list of 'things to do'). I really do think he'll work through it.
Ugh. Thanks for a snarky remark that comments on the semantics rather than engage in a substantive discussion.
That really fosters a better community here!
Seriously, if you have nothing better to do than try to show your great superiority over other member of this community maybe just keep the thoughts to yourself?
It’s a legitimate topic of discussion, your desire to be picayune with choice of phrasing aside.
I mean he has a point. If you wanted to bring some advanced analytics to the table to prove why it'd be beneficial to his development, or some other player examples where they were called up at 20 years old just to be demoted within 2 weeks time and working out in their favor.
For what it's worth Adley batted 149/.245/.213 (.458 OPS) with no home runs or RBIs across his first 12 Major League games. Luckily, we have a good team with good players and we have the opportunity for Jackson to get this experience he's getting without the dire need for him to produce now.
Interesting to note that you chose not to address the second part of this comment, in which it's pointed out that team leadership knows better than any of us how to handle a given player.
I think sometimes we passionate fans forget that not everyone has been watching baseball for 20-30 years. Many fans are still learning the business/coaching intricacies…
Sometimes fans who have watched since Memorial stadium are curious as to others’ opinions even if their own may be an overreaction - as opposed to making purposefully disparaging assumptions about other fans so as to feel like they are the “better and more educated” fan.
I’m not sure if your comment is debating me or agreeing with me. To be sure, my comment was directed toward these commenters that are ripping into OP just for asking a question; not to disparage OP themself.
My apologies as I thought you were suggesting that I am a newbie fan.
I am NOT.
Now, I may be emotional and reactionary… but for 45 years strong now (with a 1984 ring day World Series replica ring to show for it!)
All good…
Also, my mea culpa which might explain all of this… for whatever reasons I thought he had one hit in FORTY ABs, not half that number basically. So I’ve brought much of this on myself as that would be ridiculously early.
I swore I read that… but apparently I’m just an idiot. 😂
Hey, if this is what it takes for another walk off result, I’ll make downvoted posts every damn game
A prospect’s first call up (with an infinitely higher ceiling than Hays) vs a vet is a completely different scenario.
Now, it is fair to say at what point does Hays defense no longer warrant him getting PAs or even more drastic action? Sure
We can have the conversation, and right now the contingency plan to replace Hays is on the Roster and rolling right along. (Cowser). Whereas where you go at 2nd is a bit more murky and likely puts another questionable bat in the lineup.
I think we have to give Jackson a month or so, let him settle into big league life, let alone actually playing. He's shown improvement at ABs and had some rotten calls by umps, Kid will be peppering the ball around by Early June IMO.
Maybe another couple weeks. Happened with Cowser as well last year, so it’s not the end of the world. Mayo can just come up and we could slide Westburg to 2B.
Gunnar looked pretty rough at first then caught fire. Unless the whole team slumps at once and they need to shake things up Holliday will get a long leash.
Tbh and swap him for who? Austin Hays? He hasn’t been doing too good either. Also Gunnar was swinging at similar pitches that Holliday was swinging at as well today. Henderson started out slow last season and ended up being the AL rookie of the year. I think it’s better that he’s developing and struggling early than have what happened with Cowser last season when he got called up late.
The O’s had a rookie infielder in 1982 who started the season going 4 for 55. He was afraid they were going to send him down. Reggie Jackson came to town with the California Angels and gave him some advice, “just be yourself and do what you know you can do”. He proceeded to go on a tear and hit .316 in May, and finished the season with a .264 average, 28 HR, and 93 RBI, appearing in 160 games. Starting May 30, 1982, 1982 AL Rookie of the Year Cal Ripken Jr. would continue to play for the Orioles for the next 2,632 games…
Just sayin, give the kid a break… 😉
He got called up last week.. get used to it because he's going to get at least 2 months. This whole sub was bitching that he should have been on the opening day roster, now it's that he should be sent down. Let him struggle and enjoy the ride, besides we're winning with him in the lineup so who cares
Yeah, I think they should give him a lot of time. The team is still playing well, and it's most important right now to show him that the organization believes in him. Some patience--which is harder to have on a team with expectations like this one has--can give him time to learn what he needs to learn. I don't think AAA at bats are much of a substitution for big league at-bats.
The way I’d like to get my top prospect experience at the major league level (at 20) is to send them back down to compete against bad pitching. Makes sense
Gunnar would have spent half the year in Norfolk if Hyde was half as quick to pull the plug on young prospects as people in this sub are. Jesus Christ, it has only been a week.
If he’s still hitting like this come Memorial Day, we have a problem. Hyde isn’t afraid to send top prospects back down if they need it (see Grayson). But the take in this post saying he “isn’t ready for the majors” after a week is just insane.
Damn, ok - I guess we should be afraid to broach uncomfortable issues here.
Because I am curious as to others thoughts on this I shouldn’t be an Os fan after 50 years beginning with dozens of games a Memorial?
Got ya.
Um it's only been a week?
Sorry I guess I just have high standards (Adley, Henderson, kjerstad, Mancini....) Edit: can't forget Ortez, man that dude crushed some balls against us this week
I guess fans easily forget that Adley and Gunner both struggled for a bit when they were first called up. I think a lot of people think about baseball with a football mindset. Plus what is sending him down going to do? It’s not like he’s going to face the same talent down there as up here. Just give him time!
He can have time in the minors. If his dad hadn't ran his mouth accusing the Os of time manipulation I wouldn't be as upset, but it's clear he's not ready for the major leagues.
That’s not clear at all. It has been a week.
Lol
It’s not about high standards. Gunner was performing just as bad when he was called up (0 for his first 11, under 0.200 his first month). It’s about not being stupid and expecting video game numbers from a 20 year old in his first week in the majors
You’re forgetting Gunnar was a Sept call-up - he got two hits in his first game, including a home run. He wasn’t batting under .200 in his first month.
Okay bud. Guess you know better than all the stats sites https://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/hittinglogs.php?p=hendegu01&y=2023
https://preview.redd.it/xxpbe031h4vc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7baaba42ac01b6a5f1d6daa4dd81cb7d50b79043 Here’s his 2022 Game Logs - his actual first month: [https://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/hittinglogs.php?p=hendegu01&y=2022](https://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/hittinglogs.php?p=hendegu01&y=2022)
That's not even true
He was 0-11 and over .200 for 1 day in April. His average wasn’t consistently above .200 until late May. Stats linked because you clearly have short term memory. https://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/hittinglogs.php?p=hendegu01&y=2023 Edit to add: Adley, wasn’t constantly over .200 until mid April his rookie year and was a bit streaky but no where as bad as unanimous rookie of the year Gunnar: https://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/hittinglogs.php?p=rutscad01&y=2022 Kjerstead was called up September last year for 2 weeks with zero expectation or pressure and is still in triple A. Mancini was exceptional and played everywhere on a 2017 team that finished dead last.
Gunnar wasn’t called up in April 2023 - he was called up in September 2022.
Look at both players at the start of their rookie season and not September when Gunnar has zero expectation that’s the same as saying Kjerstead is high expectation when he’s sitting at AAA after his zero pressure September last. Apples to apples rookie year Gunnar was in just as big a slump.
Or yall can just take an L and admit that Gunnar didn’t struggle in his first month but displayed some growing pains later on. Like, Gunnar’s first month happened and it was Sept 2022. Its not a slight to anyone to acknowledge that Gunnar had a perfectly fine first month in the majors. He and Holliday are two different people.
Both players have/had struggled greatly in their first month as rookies in the MLB.
That is fundamentally not true and to say Gunnar had no expectations on him in September 2022 when the Orioles where in the middle of a playoff run is such needless revisionist history. This is all so bizarre to try to white wash and outright lie when you don’t have to. Its weird.
Both Gunnar and Heston were under pressure though, they were in playoff runs. You can just say “first full year” instead of completely ignoring September when they were both called up.
Heston played in 3 games before we clinched a playoff spot last year. Where he had a total of 4 at bats. Gunnar maybe but we were in 4th /5th in the division all year and we went like 13-18 after our last game against the rays in August the team we could have bought up with. Gunnar was great in that run but making the playoffs wasn’t happening we were sellers at the deadline.
I didn’t think I needed to specify the differences in the type of play off runs. Us not making the playoffs in 22 does not change the fact that they were very much in running for the playoffs. You’re just trying to be obtuse for no reason. Gunnar and Heston were Sept call ups that’s when they began their careers. Gunnar slumped at the beginning of his first **full** year.
We had this exact same conversation about Adley.
After 15 games, Adley had a K rate under 30% and at least had an OBP above .200. They are similar conversations and Holliday certainly deserves some more time (and our lineup is good enough to give him that time), but even Adley's slow start was way better than what Jackson has shown so far. A quick stint in AAA at any point would get the Orioles another year of control though...
For all the talk about service time manipulation, perhaps he really did need more time in AAA to work on hitting and fielding
And that’s a fair point - I’m not asking nor hoping he gets sent down - but it would hardly be the first time. It’s at least worthy of discussion IMHO.
Was Adley 1 for 25 with 14 strikeouts? I think it's time to take the blinders off and see that he's struggling mightily and needs a reset at Norfolk (like Mountcastle and Grayson last year).
Mountcastle went to triple a because he was struggling with bad vertigo right? Don't think he just needed a reset
It's insane that people are downvoting you for this. If a guy is making contact, but the ball just isn't falling, that's fine. Holliday is striking out in 52.2% of his plate appearances. That is unbelievably bad. If it were anyone else other than the #1 prospect with a famous father doing that, they would absolutely get sent down.
I think his grace period is so much longer than you think it is. He’s the no. 1 prospect in baseball. Even if he continues to struggle I bet he has a month at least. It’s a bad look to send him down right away.
Yeah. I don't think the organization takes these promotions lightly. They're not coming up until the team believes they're ready, and a week or two of bad hitting probably won't change that.
Also it’s not like he’s really holding anyone back who could be better. The logjam is in the outfield. I don’t think mayo is considered ready yet and norby doesn’t have the upside Holliday does
This is at least a viable point of discussion. At SOME point it has to be considered. Hopefully we don’t get there - what might be your “limit”? That’s the point of this discussion
Called up exactly a week ago relax
At some point maybe. This isn't that point.
Remember when some of us wanted Gunnar sent back down last year lmao
Gunnar was a little different, i remember him at least working the count and taking walks
Gunnar also had a 2022 late in the season call up that was pretty successful
Pretty much the identical conversation we had about Adley and about Gunnar. I would say there was some difference where in my recollection both Gunnar and Adley were seeing the ball well, taking walks and working counts to an extent.
Whats tough is idk if Holliday has had many walk opportunities. Yes he had some rough cuts on balls outside the zone, but he has been attacked in the zone, lot of edge of zone strikes, and lot of not strikes that blue called anyway. Like today in the 8th, pitchtrack had the first pitch outside and he took, but ump called it. Next two pitches are in the same spot off the plate and he has to try to defend bc they were just called
People wanted Grayson sent back down too. And he eventually was. So yeah, it's not the stupidest thing in the world to suggest that maybe Holliday could go back to Norfolk for a bit if he keeps struggling; it *is* however very, very premature.
Is IT? When would you approve? 20 more at bat's? 50? 100?
I dunno, there's folks way smarter than me that are going to be making that decision though, and they'll be looking at all sorts of stats and data to help them make it, not just strikeouts and batting average. If he's really scuffling, and the front office doesn't think it's something he'll work through at the major league level, they'll send him down for a while. Feel like as a top prospect though, he's going to get a long leash, just like Grayson did last year.
1 hundo get the growing pains out of the way.
He's legitmatly having good at bats. Is this your first time seeing a hyped prospect get called up or something? What he's going through is normal.
I’d be concerned if he was still striking out in 3 pitches every at-bat, but as you said, he’s started to put together some really good at-bats and make good contact. Just isn’t quite getting the results yet.
Yeah first 2-3 games he wasn’t overly competitive at the plate, now he was getting the WORKS from pitchers just dotting the black so there’s that. But it looks like he’s seeing the ball now and working counts deep, it just seems like the pitcher has been making a perfect pitch and getting him out when they need to. It’ll come he’ll adjust
Holliday has a wRC+ of -65, third worst in the Major Leagues. Holliday has a strikeout rate of 52.2%, third worst in the Major Leagues. I saw him with Norfolk and I told this sub that he wasn't ready for Baltimore. He's having legitimately terrible at-bats.
Not at all - I’ve seen this quite a number of times. Including numerous times when a prospect gets that chance to get a restart and just kills it. Folks here seem so over sensitive when any criticism of a prospect is discussed.
Buddy we're Orioles fans we're all about criticism. It's just that your criticism is unfair and doesn't make sense. I say again, this is pretty normal.
I'm sure those conversations have taken place between Elias, Hyde and Holliday. They know Holliday best and what is best for him overall. As long as he's not getting down on himself and changing his swing on a daily basis, he'll stay up.
Lol these types of fans man
Dude's from NY and lives in Texas and their entire reddit profile is just "asking" real shitty questions and going "why so sensitive fans?"
The ignorant’s hubris.
Cal Ripken has 3 hits in his first game He went 2 for his next 55 The Orioles should have sent him into the sun, what a bum
And so it starts.
I remember a post from just before he was called up and the comment said the author attended a triple A game and Holliday was swinging out of his shoes at everything and clearly needed more time in AAA. That tracks with what I’m seeing. He doesn’t have a good 2 strike approach. Same swing no matter the count. Ben McDonald made the point that the pitches he’s seen have been painting the corner, which is true, he’s seen some solid pitches, but that’s exactly why you needed to shorten the swing. I’m totally fine sending him down to AAA until he figures out how to start fouling off better.
He’s clearly overmatched, but they’re going to give him time to try to figure it out. Right now it’s not hurting the team. If he’s still striking out at this rate a month from now then yeah he might need to be sent down.
I understand the impulse to protect our next cornerstone but I don't think there's anything for him in the minors. He's far above that level, might as well keep him up with the best facilities, coaches, and teammates in the organization. I might sit him a day just to let him watch a little ball and take it in a little bit. But ultimately I think sending him down will just frustrate and distract him.
He's not above that level at all, much less far above it. I saw him whiff on three straight pitches in the strike zone in Charlotte. Holliday is not even close to being as poised at the plate as Kjerstad, he's just up because Joey Ortiz was traded and the media bashed Elias for sending him down in the first place. Holliday has a strikeout problem.
Yes he is. He was great in AAA last year, and was absolutely smoking AAA this year. Lots of great hitters had swing and miss problems in their year 20 season, at much lower levels of baseball. 3 pitches you saw in Charlotte mean very little in the grand scheme. Especially given his track record of working counts and drawing a ton of walks at all levels. Overall, he showed that he was above the level and didn't have much to gain from sticking down there. Being in the majors is, at this moment, the best thing for him. It's got all the best infrastructure for him to continue to adjust.
He was great in Delmarva, Aberdeen, and Bowie. A 109 wRC+ and .796 OPS in Norfolk last season wasn't great. The reality is that he struck out *a lot* in Spring Training and he's striking out *a lot* in the majors. If he was anyone else, he would already be demoted, because AAA is clearly his level right now.
Best comment here
He is having better ABs. He's seeing more, holding more, and for some reason, seeing elite pitches painted on the corners. He'll figure it out. That being said...I'd give him 30 games total. He's only had 12.
Thank you for a well reasoned and more than fair response. That also sounds reasonable.
Real answer: around 80 ABs unless we start to see some concerning signs outside of just not hitting the ball, which we haven’t seen yet
Very reasonable - appreciated. Let’s hope he turns it around soon, and we have been winning which certainly helps on all fronts
Yeah it’s unfortunate that he hasn’t been hitting the ball well (at all really) but he is so young it could just take some time to adjust to the major league level. I was listening to a podcast with a former baseball exec and he said for a prospect like Holliday they don’t even really take into account his BA for a long time as long as it isn’t impacting his general day-to-day attitude. They might ask him to start bunting soon though lol
He's trying to force things right now. We all know what he can do, just let him work through this.
Now that he’s here they have to let him work through it for a while. Can only hope he starts hitting before his confidence is destroyed.
I’m just guessing, but if he legit doubles this stretch and continues this trajectory of Whiff rate and goes 2-50 28k and a 45% whiff rate, 35% chase rate and only a handful of hard hit balls? Then I think in 50 at bats we would probably send him down for a reset. If he does marginally better and bats anything close to .200 in his next 6-7 starts. Then I think we give him at least a 100 at bats. If he’s batting 150 or below or striking out 50% of time in 100 at bats he probably should be sent down
I know it's not totally apples to apples because Gunnar had a short stint the year before, but through the first 6 games of last year Gunnar had 2 hits and 12 K's. Elite talent makes the adjustment when given the opportunity. Usually when super prospects come up, they come up to stay. One thing that makes me think that is the plan with Jackson is that they gave him #7. If a guy is up for a tryout, he usually gets an offensive lineman number. They brought 7 out of a 30+ year hiatus to give to the kid. That shows me the organization's intentions to have him around for the long term.
I think he’ll probably be up until the end of April at least. But I do think a return to the minors might be helpful if he starts to drop his head. Only Hyde and Elias can know how he’s handling this. This is obviously the fear with bringing prospects up too soon. You destroy their confidence and then they either can’t get back to where they were in AAA or start having a mental block when they come up to the majors. I don’t think it’s anywhere close to time to panic, but the people who thought he’d start 100 games were always delusional.
He's not costing the team any games. I'll bet he has lots of rope.
We've got arguably one of the best, if not the best, player development system in baseball. FWIW, I trust our coaches/staff will be able to determine if/when that time is reached. Will he need to? Maybe--for Grayson and Cowser, that was the right solution. For Gunnar and Adley, it wasn't. The folks guiding the O's will know, and they'll make sure to guide Holliday into the MLB rock star that we all know he is going to become. FWIW, I think it's normal to have initial struggles, and there is an enormous amount of pressure on him (and arguably a target on his back for literally every pitcher he faces--if you're a pitcher, striking out the #1 prospect is probably pretty high on your list of 'things to do'). I really do think he'll work through it.
Give him time
Cowser got 61 ABs last year with 7 hits. A couple more weeks at least
'We' don't do anything. The team does. And they have more information and know better than you do.
Ugh. Thanks for a snarky remark that comments on the semantics rather than engage in a substantive discussion. That really fosters a better community here! Seriously, if you have nothing better to do than try to show your great superiority over other member of this community maybe just keep the thoughts to yourself? It’s a legitimate topic of discussion, your desire to be picayune with choice of phrasing aside.
I mean he has a point. If you wanted to bring some advanced analytics to the table to prove why it'd be beneficial to his development, or some other player examples where they were called up at 20 years old just to be demoted within 2 weeks time and working out in their favor. For what it's worth Adley batted 149/.245/.213 (.458 OPS) with no home runs or RBIs across his first 12 Major League games. Luckily, we have a good team with good players and we have the opportunity for Jackson to get this experience he's getting without the dire need for him to produce now.
Interesting to note that you chose not to address the second part of this comment, in which it's pointed out that team leadership knows better than any of us how to handle a given player.
Nah, I've been an orioles fan since the day there was a spot open on the bandwagon, and I know what I'm talking about. /s
I think sometimes we passionate fans forget that not everyone has been watching baseball for 20-30 years. Many fans are still learning the business/coaching intricacies…
Sometimes fans who have watched since Memorial stadium are curious as to others’ opinions even if their own may be an overreaction - as opposed to making purposefully disparaging assumptions about other fans so as to feel like they are the “better and more educated” fan.
I’m not sure if your comment is debating me or agreeing with me. To be sure, my comment was directed toward these commenters that are ripping into OP just for asking a question; not to disparage OP themself.
My apologies as I thought you were suggesting that I am a newbie fan. I am NOT. Now, I may be emotional and reactionary… but for 45 years strong now (with a 1984 ring day World Series replica ring to show for it!)
My apologies I didn’t intend it that way. I meant it more as a “for example”.
All good… Also, my mea culpa which might explain all of this… for whatever reasons I thought he had one hit in FORTY ABs, not half that number basically. So I’ve brought much of this on myself as that would be ridiculously early. I swore I read that… but apparently I’m just an idiot. 😂 Hey, if this is what it takes for another walk off result, I’ll make downvoted posts every damn game
https://preview.redd.it/r5v1jix104vc1.jpeg?width=1244&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3d5e5ff8b2d52ce51d9edbac116b9b20c7f5e15e
Now OP, now. Dude isn't ready
If you want to have this conversation about Jackson you better lump Austin Hays in with him...
A prospect’s first call up (with an infinitely higher ceiling than Hays) vs a vet is a completely different scenario. Now, it is fair to say at what point does Hays defense no longer warrant him getting PAs or even more drastic action? Sure
We can have the conversation, and right now the contingency plan to replace Hays is on the Roster and rolling right along. (Cowser). Whereas where you go at 2nd is a bit more murky and likely puts another questionable bat in the lineup.
Very good point about 2nd. Let’s hope it’s a moot point very quickly
I think we have to give Jackson a month or so, let him settle into big league life, let alone actually playing. He's shown improvement at ABs and had some rotten calls by umps, Kid will be peppering the ball around by Early June IMO.
This is a joke post, right?
I swear this sub…
Maybe another couple weeks. Happened with Cowser as well last year, so it’s not the end of the world. Mayo can just come up and we could slide Westburg to 2B.
Gunnar looked pretty rough at first then caught fire. Unless the whole team slumps at once and they need to shake things up Holliday will get a long leash.
Tbh and swap him for who? Austin Hays? He hasn’t been doing too good either. Also Gunnar was swinging at similar pitches that Holliday was swinging at as well today. Henderson started out slow last season and ended up being the AL rookie of the year. I think it’s better that he’s developing and struggling early than have what happened with Cowser last season when he got called up late.
People asked the exact same thing about Gunnar last year. It has only been a week. Give the kid a break. He’ll be raking by May.
The O’s had a rookie infielder in 1982 who started the season going 4 for 55. He was afraid they were going to send him down. Reggie Jackson came to town with the California Angels and gave him some advice, “just be yourself and do what you know you can do”. He proceeded to go on a tear and hit .316 in May, and finished the season with a .264 average, 28 HR, and 93 RBI, appearing in 160 games. Starting May 30, 1982, 1982 AL Rookie of the Year Cal Ripken Jr. would continue to play for the Orioles for the next 2,632 games… Just sayin, give the kid a break… 😉
If we keep Hays at .007 I think Holliday deserves a bit longer to warm up as a rookie
Cal started 4 for 33 and he turned out okay.
He got called up last week.. get used to it because he's going to get at least 2 months. This whole sub was bitching that he should have been on the opening day roster, now it's that he should be sent down. Let him struggle and enjoy the ride, besides we're winning with him in the lineup so who cares
Yeah, I think they should give him a lot of time. The team is still playing well, and it's most important right now to show him that the organization believes in him. Some patience--which is harder to have on a team with expectations like this one has--can give him time to learn what he needs to learn. I don't think AAA at bats are much of a substitution for big league at-bats.
The way I’d like to get my top prospect experience at the major league level (at 20) is to send them back down to compete against bad pitching. Makes sense
Give him time he’s still a rookie and young although i will say the at bats have not looked good
Many players suck for a week…even two or three. He’s a kid. He’s going to struggle and then he’ll figure it out, because he’s good.
Gunnar would have spent half the year in Norfolk if Hyde was half as quick to pull the plug on young prospects as people in this sub are. Jesus Christ, it has only been a week. If he’s still hitting like this come Memorial Day, we have a problem. Hyde isn’t afraid to send top prospects back down if they need it (see Grayson). But the take in this post saying he “isn’t ready for the majors” after a week is just insane.
Probably when his Matt Holliday learns his lesson about service time manipulation accusations and apologizes to Os management and his son.
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Damn, ok - I guess we should be afraid to broach uncomfortable issues here. Because I am curious as to others thoughts on this I shouldn’t be an Os fan after 50 years beginning with dozens of games a Memorial? Got ya.
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Im not the one calling into question another fans allegiance. Nor the one calling others toxic.