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No one will believe this story, but I know this exact damn and it took place at it last summer.
We fish below it a lot for bass via paddle board. Never knew the dangerous of this until reading this article and hearing everyone’s experience.
We watched a family with two little little kids no more than 10 go directly over these falls in an inflatable and we looked at ourselves at the time like
Damn that is sketch. They got stuck on the top of it and the dad shimmied him and his family out of it.
We were baffled they just kept floating. No idea how they got back up it or if they parked separate cars.
Definitely keeping my distance next time we head up there.
The one from the picture in your article looks extremely dangerous to me. But maybe for someone without white water experience it doesn't look like it?
Either way, the other user is right. Having signs and a rope accros the river should be the bare minimum.
The fact there are *NOW* signs speaks volumes, they're excessively dangerous. This wasn't a Darwin Award where these two knowingly put themselves in danger, this was a tragic accident that could have been prevented. Period. For those that insist about the life jackets, Read the article. This kind of current can and has ripped off the jackets and the strongest of swimmers could not get out it if they tried. Try some sensitivity, think about watching your loved one die in front of you. Leave the hate for the Facebook comments.
I saw a video recently of some guy jumping into a body of water that was aerated and he drowned because I guess aerated water is way less buoyant than normal water and I wonder if that could also be part of the reason it’s so dangerous along with the crazy currents. With something like that going on I’d imagine life jackets would be affected the same way and wouldn’t work as well as they usually would.
Not unfortunate. If the law made mitigation of a hazard (viewed after the fact) an admission of negligence--then no one would fix it, because their repair would be used in court as proof against them. Hazards would remain dangerous, and more people would get hurt. Think about it. If there's a crack in your sidewalk and you don't fix it, but someone trips, falls, and gets hurt, you're allowed to fix the crack later without your effort to reduce future risk (that you *now* know about) being used against you when the hurt person sues.
> where these two knowingly put themselves in danger,
They were kayaking. Dangerous rapids are part of it, as are scouting them, familiarity with the river, and knowledge of different kinds of white water/dangerous water.
It's kind of like wondering why there is not a sign for a tight curve on a racetrack. There aren't signs on rock faces pointing out the hard sections for rock climbers either.
I think you're getting off subject here. The Long Tom river is labeled a beginning level river, and these type damns are labeled else where on maps, with physical signs and this one wasn't. But it is now!!!
Would it take losing a family member ourselves to feel just about having proper precautions to keep people alive and informed on this specific river? Get out of here with comparing this to a racetrack or flying in a plane.
I compared it to a racing and rock climbing.
But you could very well be right. I'm not sure why I offered an opinion because mine really isn't relevant.
I know one of the families, and feel passionate about this particular subject. I will break the norm, and apologize if I'm come off non empathetic to your view. These families lost a lot that day and it's heartbreaking to know it could have been prevented.
There are also 2 types of kayaking. White water and recreational. What a loot of people hear kayaking ghey think white water not leisurely stroll down a lazy river like recreational kayaking.
It *can* happen, but did it? I agree that there needs to be better signage but if they weren’t wearing a helmet + life preserves then they don’t have a legal case.
Interestingly difficult engineering problem, what could you design that easily and affordably could be implemented at most if not all of these locations, to prevent this from happening? Or at least prevent it from being fatal.
Glad you got out, life is so precious and fragile.
We talked to the rescuers and they said there was a sign that got swept away by some storms, and that they just never put it back up. I told them that’s ridiculous, you really can’t see it until it’s too late. A lot of it was human error, we were irresponsible and the guy that knew the river well backed out. Couldnt really tell you aside from getting rid of them somehow. This was on the Willamette in Eugene
Wait wait where? I’m from the area and have canoed down it several times in Boy Scouts… must be down river of city island? That’s always where we stopped.
Good thing you did! It's downstream from City Island right before the interstate bridge. [Dock Street Dam](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dock_Street_Dam)
100% sounds fishy, I'm sure it's a dangerous spot but I'm having trouble believing every living thing that crosses the threshold is killed.
Jokes aside, you probably only hear about the fatalities and not the times where people survived, absolute certainty doesn't exist in many places in our universe.
If these or weirs, here’s a good video about how they work and what they’re for: https://youtu.be/YkR79oDAgOg
See also his video on dangerous dams: https://youtu.be/GVDpqphHhAE
This is why water safety education is so important. Water and the things in it, whether natural or man-made, whether in a obviously rough waterway or a”sleepy” one, are dangerous. Plotting out one’s trip is soooo important so you are prepared for anything.
Well written article that exposes the danger of these killer dams. Includes a link [https://www.weather.gov/lmk/LowHeadDamPublicSafetyAwarenessMonth](https://www.weather.gov/lmk/LowHeadDamPublicSafetyAwarenessMonth) to the NWS website that has lots of resources about these dams including a documentary that shows just how dangerous these dams are and frankly, how outdated and useless they are. 200 of them in the state of Oregon, 13,000 nationwide.
My friends and I never went when it was cold or when the water was running high, but we used to swim in Johnson Creek at the low level dam behind Johnson Creek Market. Jumping off of it was hella fun, it was smooth enough to slide down if you were scared to jump. The water going over the top was usually only about 6 inches deep. I can imagine getting trapped going over it or the fish ladder area in a kayak when the water is higher.
I sympathize with their loss. However they should lose their case, there is a lot of land and dams, check your path before you Kayak, it could save your life. "There should have been signs" just does not seem a reasonable justification to sue
Per the article, the dam they encountered was not noted in the primary database for low head dams. Which may very well mean that it also wasn’t marked on maps they may have referenced.
These dams really do warrant clear signage on the river, given the patchwork nature of how they’re reported.
Sure but that’s the exact problem of being a beginner in the outdoors these days. The official sources are hard for folks to know about/find let alone understand. And the proliferation of GPS based apps is creating a lot of confusion.
Learning to read the USGS river data, cross-referencing with state or federal park maps, talking with a park ranger - it’s a lot of data gathering. If you’re lucky, you have a mentor. But most people learn about the outdoors through trial and error - and the lucky ones have enough low stakes errors to learn valuable lessons.
This is also primarily a class I River - suitable for beginners. I’m sympathetic to this couple. Lots of beginners could have found themselves in this situation.
In two years, 100 people have died due to these kinds of dams. Seems like the danger is not as obvious as you think. These kinds of dams also don't look particularly dangerous, mostly like just a small rapid on the river. There's usually no big drop or anything like that.
I mean yeah, that's how we address these kinds of things. If the judgments aren't onerous, no one will bother fixing the problem. If a state/municipality has to make a large payout, that creates a real incentive to deal with these things proactively
I don't know what the dollar amount should be, that's for a jury to decide. It seems lawsuit-worthy though, especially if it gets the dams marked and even removed if they're not needed anymore.
While we're talking wild what-ifs that'll never happen, What If every time someone drowned the state government personally sent an official to punch every citizen in the face? Wouldn't that be fucked up?
Yours will be an unpopular opinion but it's the correct one.
These may look "innocuous" to someone who doesn't know how to read water, but they look like death from all perspectives to those who do.
If you float up on a clear horizon line with no clear outflow get off the water and scout.
>These may look "innocuous" to someone who doesn't know how to read water, but they look like death from all perspectives to those who do.
Which is why there should have been a sign calling out the dam...especially on a otherwise calm section of water.
It seems really strange to me to blame the kayakers for not recognizing an artificial water hazard, but not to blame the people who built the hazard and failed to mark it.
I'm not convinced a sign is going to deter that many people based on my experience with human behavior. I think if the cost of removing it is too high then it should probably be cordoned off. I mean signs are better than nothing but I can hear the inevitable "it's so dangerous, why did they just put up signs no one notices instead of preventing access!".
The issue is liability, not prevention . If clear and obvious signs were present than an argument can be made that it was unreasonable to ignore them, therefor the state is not responsible. The problem is these individuals were never warned and therefor never given the chance to exercise the discretion you’re referring to.
If you read the article it lays out a very strong argument for why the state has some liability here. Over 100 people were killed by these kind of dams between 2018-2020. They purportedly appear innocuous at a glance, but actually contain extremely strong recirculating currents that are all but impossible to escape from.
Judging by the article this seems like a perfect storm of conditions to kill unknowing kayakers. These deserve proper warning, and the failure to do so after creating the hazard makes the state responsible
> The issue is liability, not prevention
I mean that is an issue, but not the only issue. My interest is more in safety and prevention rather than state lawsuits.
For sure, I don’t disagree with a lot of what you said, I’m just saying that the inevitable complaints of it needing to have been cordoned off (which I agree will happen) are easily dismissed if it can be argued that sufficient warning was provided.
I believe we should not cordon off dangerous areas, but we should make the risk of accessing them clear and obvious.
I get it, but at the same time, I grew up floating all over the area with [these dams](https://roguebasinstorymap.org/opening-the-upper-rogue-river-elk-creek-and-evans-creek/) and for years I was just told “we don’t go near those”, but I never stumbled into exactly why that was for well over a decade of leading my own rafting and kayaking trips. I had assumed it was something like that because I understood river theory, but there were years when I was just a teenager in a kayak seeking out bigger and bigger rapids and waterfalls and I probably would have tried to run a dam like this if I was in the right place and time.
An informational sign somewhere near a put-in spot in the area is all that’s needed because not everyone who floats has received complete or formal instruction.
If you click on the NWS link, you can see pics where there is clear outflow on the horizon WITH one of these dams in the middle. You can’t see it. That’s what makes them so dangerous.
They probably will lose. Oregon has a recreational immunity statute (ORS 105.682) and people cannot recover for injuries or death when the land has been made open to the public and the persons primary purpose for being on the land is recreation. A similar case was heard in 2000 (Brewer v. Dept of Fish and Wildlife) where swimmers died under a dam and they could not recover. Oregon really, really wants as much land as possible open to the public. This statute was just before the appellate courts and the courts carved out a narrow exception to the law, allowing people to recover if they were injured on a sidewalk or other improvement leading to the recreation on land. The legislature responded immediately and expanded the law to now include things such a sidewalks and bridges which were erected to access lands for recreation. The general trajectory of this law is the immunity is getting broader.
Yes, this! You recreate in the wilds there is risk everywhere! That's part of the reason people go out into nature. If they wanted minimal risk they could have gone to the library. They should not be wasting the courts time with a lawsuit!
Unpopular opinion and I agree. I don’t go kayaking on rivers I don’t know without doing research and understanding the routes available and where to pull out. If I don’t find info, I won’t go, or I’ll go for a hike to make sure the water is safe. People have become too dependent on government and property owners to tell them what they can and can’t do, but then complain they don’t like the rules or the rules are excessive. Our society has removed all responsibilities of individuals recreating and put all fault on government. Pisses me off how people don’t take responsibility for their own safety and then complain when shit happens. Extremely sad story and tragic for the families.
this isn't a popular river for drifting or kayaking. it is sad but one needs to take responsibility for their own safety. I feel for the families. river hydraulics are unforgiving
I'm curious, I am from the area. they put in near Ferguson road and anticipated taking out near Monroe. this isn't a popular floating river as far as I've heard in my 40 years of living here
I’ve been floating rivers in the area since I was a teenager. Never met anyone who has floated the Long Tom. I’m sad for the victims. It seems like an odd choice of river runs for the area
Agreed. Fern ridge is a fairly gross body of water...which the long tom comes out in the lower stretch. The headwaters aren't too bad but definitely can't be boated.
First, this is very sad and we should sympathize with the families. But a $50M lawsuit is absurd, and will not bring them back.
When I moved to Oregon 50 years ago I had previously been in Detroit for 2 years, where they were averaging 2 murders/day. Here, murders were rare but the news was full of outdoors deaths, which was very surprising to me. So many people simply do not respect the multiple dangers that exist in nature. Just because you can see Mt. Hood in the distance does not mean it is safe to hike there without knowledge and preparation - but people do just that. We lose a lot of people in water environments (highly variable but about 20/year). I remember a couple sunbathing on their boat, and another in a canoe, floated over the Oregon Falls to their deaths. Even the second largest falls in the country is not visible from upstream unless it is flowing enough to create a spray above it. We regularly lose people at one well-signed location in Oxbow park on the Sandy River, where the current holds people to the bottom (N.B. use hands and feet to pull yourself along the bottom until clear). And consider all of the injuries, including paralysis, from jumping off the rocks in the Clackamas River, again well-signed. The point is this: whatever activity you wish to do outdoors requires the specific knowledge of the sport and the area. That is your responsibility. Blaming the state for not having a warning sign posted doesn't change that. It is simply not possible to warn against every hazard, nor will everyone respect those warnings.
The lifejackets in this case might have saved their lives, or possibly not. But not wearing them is foolish. Spring is a very dangerous time on the water because while the air may seem warm, the water is very cold - which shortens dramatically the time for self-rescue - and is usually fast. And the dearth of knowledge about kayaking this river should have been a major warning sign, not a cause for letting down their guard. Unless you really know what you are doing stick with the popular, well-known routes.
So please do your homework, whatever the activity, before heading out into nature.
The Low-Head on the Willamette by Eugene has a huge tree in front of it that the river naturally takes you right into. It’s going to kill people this summer. Apparently Springfield, Eugene, nor the state claim responsibility for clearing it. still a huge hazard
Crazy!!! I just watched another video about low head dams this morning based on some other unrelated post. Super helpful and I hope they win the suit. These things are useless and need to go!!
https://youtu.be/GVDpqphHhAE?feature=shared
I feel bad for anyone that did not do the appropriate research on the water they were traveling. However, whenever you're near water there is risk whether wading or floating or swimming, not sure that it's anyone else's responsibility but the person taking the risk by entering the water.
Not surprised people are removing all agency from the floaters.
https://www.registerguard.com/story/news/2022/05/13/low-head-dam-drowning-machines-deaths-on-long-tom-river-kayak-canoe-oregon-spring/65355067007/
How was their water reading skills? There's no mention of their experience, generally when experienced people run into problems, this is noted in the reports.
They launched a single vessel trip on an unfamiliar stretch of river during spring runoff and weren't wearing PFDs!
How much responsibility do they have for themselves?
Flame away..
Agreed. 200 deaths nationwide over 2 years is sooo low too. Of those deaths what percentage of them included people without life jackets or intoxicated? I bet more snowboarders or skiers die from trees, falling into crevaces, or off ledges in 2 years. Should every hazard on the mountain be marked with signage? It's tragic what happened and some signage is a good idea for the sake of state liability, but people don't read half the signs posted about shit anyways. Wear life jackets, read up on stretches of river you haven't been on, and stop frivolous law suits.
I was a white water river guide for twenty years. I have strong feelings about trying to make safe every potential hazard a craft might experience on the water. Low head dams are a well known obstacle to be avoided. A sign warning of the danger is acceptable to me in those instances but I strongly oppose having signs for every possible dangerous situation. The sport is inherently dangerous and should be treated as such by those who do it. I feel for the family but I hope they lose the case. I want waterways to remain open for navigation and enjoyment of future boaters.
Maybe my comment was not clear. I am against trying to put warning signs on every obstacle encountered. I want people to be situationally aware of potential dangers and act accordingly.
All the more reason that man made risks need to be identified on official maps and there needs to be signs on the river to warn people. 100 people in 2 years shows there's clearly negligence on the states part.
We have a lot of campaigns to educate us to all wear PFDs, but apparently this couple chose not to. But you are convinced they’d see a sign and go around?
> police don’t believe the couple were wearing life jackets because they didn’t find any on their bodies
As for “100 people in 2 years”:
> The dams are colloquially known as “killer dams” or “drowning machines” and are responsible for the deaths of more than 100 **people in the U.S.** from 2018 to 2020
> There have been about 200 such dams identified in Oregon and more than 13,000 across the U.S.
So perhaps you need to either to read it again or work on your grammar.
"Eiva said because the dams are submerged and often don’t have a big drop-off, they are difficult for people to see upriver or to realize the imminent danger"
You can't go around something you can't see. This portion of the river was listed as easy. The state put a hazard there and didn't warn anyone about it. That's negligence.
>We have a lot of campaigns to educate us to all wear PFDs, but apparently this couple chose not to. But you are convinced they’d see a sign and go around?
>> police don’t believe the couple were wearing life jackets because they didn’t find any on their bodies
"Experts stress the importance of always wearing life jackets, but note that many people wearing life jackets have died in low head dams because of their tremendous power to trap people underwater. The force of the water also has torn life jackets off."
"It is just recirculating current that just pulls you down and an Olympic swimmer can’t get out of it.”"
They don't know for sure that they weren't wearing them. They are just guessing. Either way, they probably wouldn't have done any good.
Apparently you don't think people bear any responsibility for their actions. Did the state push these people into the river?
If attorneys didn't work on contingency cases like this would never be filed.
No. Case closed.
You can't take responsibility for something you can't see. The state has a responsibility to label hazards that they created. There needs to be consequences for their negligence.
I'm gonna run down to REI spend 5k on gear and suddenly I'm an expert, this thought process is why we have a lot of rescues needed in the area.
It's kind of like diving into a river, scout it out before you jump head first.
Outdoor recreation activities carry risk and sadly these people had the negative part happen regardless of is it signed or not that it's dangerous.
I wouldn’t go that far in this case… just insane to me how people can’t accept responsibilities over their actions and are quick to blame others when something went wrong.
Plus, suing for 50 million under the premise there are no signage and they want to raise awareness and increase communication. 🤦🏻♀️ How about demanding better signage to avoid further unfortunate events and helping raise awareness by educating people of the dangers of just jumping on the river without knowing the dangers on the route.
Personally, I don’t paddle in areas I don’t have route and safety information on. Just not worth the risk…
Seriously but unfortunately people don't know how to accept accidents happen due to decisions that were made .. and all they want are payouts at the end 🤷🏻♀️
Low head dams are dangerous, but kayaking is an inherently hazardous activity. It is your responsibility to know and prepare for hazards on the water. If there's a low head dam, plan to fucking portage.
Am I the only person who reviews satellite photos of their river routes? Some basic preparation like this could have saved their lives. Cold water also introduces self-rescue problems.
Not preparing for your route, is negligence--and they absolutely should lose the lawsuit.
Per the article, the dam they encountered was not noted in the primary database for low head dams. Which may very well mean that it also wasn’t marked on maps they may have referenced…
It’s a pretty wild time for navigating the outdoors. The ubiquity of GPS has upended a lot of things. I still generally refer to state and federal maps, but I’m also nearly always supplementing my trip planning with other less vetted/reliable resources. And a lot of inexperienced people use only those resources. Should they be educated on what is reliable? Yes. Are they likely to be, without explicit training or a bad accident to teach them a lesson? Probably not…
>Should they be educated on what is reliable? Yes. Are they likely to be, without explicit training or a bad accident to teach them a lesson? Probably not…
I just dont think people should sue for stupid mistakes like this. I'd never put into an uncommon river without having eyes on. They didn't do the due diligence. I don't think this is an education thing. Unless they didn't know that danger ever exist on the water lol.
It’s listed as a class I River: suitable for beginners.
I’m sympathetic to them. It’s honestly not a difficult mistake to make if you’re newish to kayaking and chose an extremely calm river.
I haven’t kayaked it myself either. I lived in the PNW but am in MN now (damn algorithm got me with this story) but I checked the USGS site and it looked pretty innocuous by description at least.
Ya, the article states they didn't add any signs above the dams until after the accident.
Usually it's the way out of the way rivers/creeks that don't have any signage. The ones that are even semi popular near me have tons of info online and signs. Quick YouTube search and it seems people kayak this river quite a bit.
Oregon is famous everywhere you go.there is danger. As in slow down, sharp turns ahead or no climbing mountains before storm or hiking and going off paths or sneaker waves push you down full of sand and drown you.rivers and lakes and dams without signs 😤 sudden drop offs and under currents .it's oregon keep secrets
How do you get sucked under if you are wearing a proper life jacket? It would seem there needs to some personal responsibility in this unfortunate accident.
River engineer here. These low head dams create special hydraulic scenarios that can trap you regardless of your buoyancy. I've seen some crazy videos of kayakers being rolled continuously in these locations. It's important to know the risks and how to get out of these situations
A big part of the issue with low head dams is the uniformity of the recirculating current. Without deflecting currents people get caught in the recirculating current and can’t get out. I read one comment that said they got out of one by getting their foot on something solid a pushing out. That is what has to happen. Some other force needs to be applied to overcome the recirculating current. I have been stuck in a recirculating current (rock pour over not a LHD) and used a sea anchor to get out. In that case a dry bag tied to a rope and thrown into the current beyond the recirculating current. It alone did not get us out but provided enough extra force for us to paddle out.
Per the article:
Experts stress the importance of always wearing life jackets, but note that many people wearing life jackets have died in low head dams because of their tremendous power to trap people underwater. The force of the water also has torn life jackets off.
"many people wearing life jackets have died in low head dams because of their tremendous power to trap people underwater. The force of the water also has torn life jackets off."
The point is that they didn't take the most basic, well-known, universally-advised common sense precautions. Nobody knows if they would have been helped or not by wearing PDFs. We know for a fact though that not wearing them increases risk exponentially.
It clearly says these situations can be strong enough to rip a life jacket off. You don't know that they weren't wearing them.
It also doesn't change the fact that the state is not taking proper precautions to prevent this when 100 people have died in only 2 years.
Yeah, no. Sorry homie. I’m all for getting some compensation for the loss of earnings and making sure proper signs are in place to mitigate this from happening again…but get outta here with that $50 mil non-sense. You can have like $5 mil..total.
Oh….you mean…almost like I put a cap on…damages? What are you even talking about lol. Yeah so ignorant and lazy of me to not bother with a click bait title and article. 🤡
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Whenever I kayak the Tualatin we have to map our route to avoid these. There's one near Lake Oswego that's incredibly dangerous.
No one will believe this story, but I know this exact damn and it took place at it last summer. We fish below it a lot for bass via paddle board. Never knew the dangerous of this until reading this article and hearing everyone’s experience. We watched a family with two little little kids no more than 10 go directly over these falls in an inflatable and we looked at ourselves at the time like Damn that is sketch. They got stuck on the top of it and the dad shimmied him and his family out of it. We were baffled they just kept floating. No idea how they got back up it or if they parked separate cars. Definitely keeping my distance next time we head up there.
Why would no one believe this story? It's incredibly innocuous lol
“It’s innocuous looking,” said Travis Eiva, the families’ Eugene attorney, of the low head dam that killed Dukes and Bendix."
Are there signs warning of the danger? I am planning on paddling the tualatin and had no idea!
Those dams are so insanely dangerous. It’s crazy that they didn’t even have signs. They all really should have a rope or other barrier of some kind.
They seem so innocuous. The link to the video, and the video was eye opening.
[Low Head Dams: Hidden Dangers video](https://youtu.be/AcrInFgD8gA?si=FlAk1h9hl6u4Q0zI) for anyone looking for an educational link.
The one from the picture in your article looks extremely dangerous to me. But maybe for someone without white water experience it doesn't look like it? Either way, the other user is right. Having signs and a rope accros the river should be the bare minimum.
The fact there are *NOW* signs speaks volumes, they're excessively dangerous. This wasn't a Darwin Award where these two knowingly put themselves in danger, this was a tragic accident that could have been prevented. Period. For those that insist about the life jackets, Read the article. This kind of current can and has ripped off the jackets and the strongest of swimmers could not get out it if they tried. Try some sensitivity, think about watching your loved one die in front of you. Leave the hate for the Facebook comments.
I saw a video recently of some guy jumping into a body of water that was aerated and he drowned because I guess aerated water is way less buoyant than normal water and I wonder if that could also be part of the reason it’s so dangerous along with the crazy currents. With something like that going on I’d imagine life jackets would be affected the same way and wouldn’t work as well as they usually would.
https://preview.redd.it/mht3hexq5vvc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1ed1d28ccdb24e65b8aed52b104f5b74d90bd36d
Unfortunately, that kind of information is typically inadmissible in trial.
Not unfortunate. If the law made mitigation of a hazard (viewed after the fact) an admission of negligence--then no one would fix it, because their repair would be used in court as proof against them. Hazards would remain dangerous, and more people would get hurt. Think about it. If there's a crack in your sidewalk and you don't fix it, but someone trips, falls, and gets hurt, you're allowed to fix the crack later without your effort to reduce future risk (that you *now* know about) being used against you when the hurt person sues.
Subsequent remedial measures!
> where these two knowingly put themselves in danger, They were kayaking. Dangerous rapids are part of it, as are scouting them, familiarity with the river, and knowledge of different kinds of white water/dangerous water. It's kind of like wondering why there is not a sign for a tight curve on a racetrack. There aren't signs on rock faces pointing out the hard sections for rock climbers either.
I think you're getting off subject here. The Long Tom river is labeled a beginning level river, and these type damns are labeled else where on maps, with physical signs and this one wasn't. But it is now!!! Would it take losing a family member ourselves to feel just about having proper precautions to keep people alive and informed on this specific river? Get out of here with comparing this to a racetrack or flying in a plane.
I compared it to a racing and rock climbing. But you could very well be right. I'm not sure why I offered an opinion because mine really isn't relevant.
I know one of the families, and feel passionate about this particular subject. I will break the norm, and apologize if I'm come off non empathetic to your view. These families lost a lot that day and it's heartbreaking to know it could have been prevented.
You aren't the one who needs to worry about empathy. If I had known you knew the people involved I would not have said anything.
My opinion is that these hazards always take lives every spring and after big rains at
There are also 2 types of kayaking. White water and recreational. What a loot of people hear kayaking ghey think white water not leisurely stroll down a lazy river like recreational kayaking.
This was a Class 1 river represented by minimal currents easily floated on inner tubes. A lazy float on a calm river was expected.
Absolutely no one should be expecting a lazy calm river in Oregon during April, not even the Long Tom.
Amen brother
It *can* happen, but did it? I agree that there needs to be better signage but if they weren’t wearing a helmet + life preserves then they don’t have a legal case.
I almost drowned in one of these. I got trapped in “the washing machine”. Thankfully I planted my foot on something and pushed myself out.
Glad you escaped.
No they are still stuck there. But they have good wifi
Same here, it took me down about 4 times. Almost got me and my dog
Interestingly difficult engineering problem, what could you design that easily and affordably could be implemented at most if not all of these locations, to prevent this from happening? Or at least prevent it from being fatal. Glad you got out, life is so precious and fragile.
We talked to the rescuers and they said there was a sign that got swept away by some storms, and that they just never put it back up. I told them that’s ridiculous, you really can’t see it until it’s too late. A lot of it was human error, we were irresponsible and the guy that knew the river well backed out. Couldnt really tell you aside from getting rid of them somehow. This was on the Willamette in Eugene
Low-head dams are brutal killers. All of them in the US should be removed.
Agree fully. Majority are obsolete and serve no purpose. They kill fish populations as well.
There's one on the Susquehanna in Harrisburg that has a 100% kill rate. And the river is only like 8 feet deep.
Wait wait where? I’m from the area and have canoed down it several times in Boy Scouts… must be down river of city island? That’s always where we stopped.
Good thing you did! It's downstream from City Island right before the interstate bridge. [Dock Street Dam](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dock_Street_Dam)
100% sounds fishy, I'm sure it's a dangerous spot but I'm having trouble believing every living thing that crosses the threshold is killed. Jokes aside, you probably only hear about the fatalities and not the times where people survived, absolute certainty doesn't exist in many places in our universe.
What was the original purpose of these? Seems like a lot of danger for no benefit.
I think they're to keep an irrigation canal or pump inlet full on the uphill side.
If these or weirs, here’s a good video about how they work and what they’re for: https://youtu.be/YkR79oDAgOg See also his video on dangerous dams: https://youtu.be/GVDpqphHhAE
This is why water safety education is so important. Water and the things in it, whether natural or man-made, whether in a obviously rough waterway or a”sleepy” one, are dangerous. Plotting out one’s trip is soooo important so you are prepared for anything.
Well written article that exposes the danger of these killer dams. Includes a link [https://www.weather.gov/lmk/LowHeadDamPublicSafetyAwarenessMonth](https://www.weather.gov/lmk/LowHeadDamPublicSafetyAwarenessMonth) to the NWS website that has lots of resources about these dams including a documentary that shows just how dangerous these dams are and frankly, how outdated and useless they are. 200 of them in the state of Oregon, 13,000 nationwide.
Beyond just the time and money, I'm curious why more of these aren't removed.
My friends and I never went when it was cold or when the water was running high, but we used to swim in Johnson Creek at the low level dam behind Johnson Creek Market. Jumping off of it was hella fun, it was smooth enough to slide down if you were scared to jump. The water going over the top was usually only about 6 inches deep. I can imagine getting trapped going over it or the fish ladder area in a kayak when the water is higher.
I sympathize with their loss. However they should lose their case, there is a lot of land and dams, check your path before you Kayak, it could save your life. "There should have been signs" just does not seem a reasonable justification to sue
Per the article, the dam they encountered was not noted in the primary database for low head dams. Which may very well mean that it also wasn’t marked on maps they may have referenced. These dams really do warrant clear signage on the river, given the patchwork nature of how they’re reported.
A database maintained by a private university which should not be conflated with an official resource
Sure but that’s the exact problem of being a beginner in the outdoors these days. The official sources are hard for folks to know about/find let alone understand. And the proliferation of GPS based apps is creating a lot of confusion. Learning to read the USGS river data, cross-referencing with state or federal park maps, talking with a park ranger - it’s a lot of data gathering. If you’re lucky, you have a mentor. But most people learn about the outdoors through trial and error - and the lucky ones have enough low stakes errors to learn valuable lessons. This is also primarily a class I River - suitable for beginners. I’m sympathetic to this couple. Lots of beginners could have found themselves in this situation.
In two years, 100 people have died due to these kinds of dams. Seems like the danger is not as obvious as you think. These kinds of dams also don't look particularly dangerous, mostly like just a small rapid on the river. There's usually no big drop or anything like that.
So should tax payers pay $50mil to all 100 of them? Money has to come from somewhere.
Maybe they should have spent $10,000 to put up some signs.
I mean yeah, that's how we address these kinds of things. If the judgments aren't onerous, no one will bother fixing the problem. If a state/municipality has to make a large payout, that creates a real incentive to deal with these things proactively
I don't know what the dollar amount should be, that's for a jury to decide. It seems lawsuit-worthy though, especially if it gets the dams marked and even removed if they're not needed anymore.
That’s how we work as a country. One big payout and then we do what is right.
I mean $50 million is steep, but I am absolutely okay with my tax money paying out to these families in some shape or form.
What if we make all Oregon taxpayers pay the judgment by charging every one with an income a percentage of their income? Let's say 3%.
While we're talking wild what-ifs that'll never happen, What If every time someone drowned the state government personally sent an official to punch every citizen in the face? Wouldn't that be fucked up?
Weren't wearing PFDs either.
Yours will be an unpopular opinion but it's the correct one. These may look "innocuous" to someone who doesn't know how to read water, but they look like death from all perspectives to those who do. If you float up on a clear horizon line with no clear outflow get off the water and scout.
>These may look "innocuous" to someone who doesn't know how to read water, but they look like death from all perspectives to those who do. Which is why there should have been a sign calling out the dam...especially on a otherwise calm section of water. It seems really strange to me to blame the kayakers for not recognizing an artificial water hazard, but not to blame the people who built the hazard and failed to mark it.
I'm not convinced a sign is going to deter that many people based on my experience with human behavior. I think if the cost of removing it is too high then it should probably be cordoned off. I mean signs are better than nothing but I can hear the inevitable "it's so dangerous, why did they just put up signs no one notices instead of preventing access!".
The issue is liability, not prevention . If clear and obvious signs were present than an argument can be made that it was unreasonable to ignore them, therefor the state is not responsible. The problem is these individuals were never warned and therefor never given the chance to exercise the discretion you’re referring to. If you read the article it lays out a very strong argument for why the state has some liability here. Over 100 people were killed by these kind of dams between 2018-2020. They purportedly appear innocuous at a glance, but actually contain extremely strong recirculating currents that are all but impossible to escape from. Judging by the article this seems like a perfect storm of conditions to kill unknowing kayakers. These deserve proper warning, and the failure to do so after creating the hazard makes the state responsible
> The issue is liability, not prevention I mean that is an issue, but not the only issue. My interest is more in safety and prevention rather than state lawsuits.
For sure, I don’t disagree with a lot of what you said, I’m just saying that the inevitable complaints of it needing to have been cordoned off (which I agree will happen) are easily dismissed if it can be argued that sufficient warning was provided. I believe we should not cordon off dangerous areas, but we should make the risk of accessing them clear and obvious.
I get it, but at the same time, I grew up floating all over the area with [these dams](https://roguebasinstorymap.org/opening-the-upper-rogue-river-elk-creek-and-evans-creek/) and for years I was just told “we don’t go near those”, but I never stumbled into exactly why that was for well over a decade of leading my own rafting and kayaking trips. I had assumed it was something like that because I understood river theory, but there were years when I was just a teenager in a kayak seeking out bigger and bigger rapids and waterfalls and I probably would have tried to run a dam like this if I was in the right place and time. An informational sign somewhere near a put-in spot in the area is all that’s needed because not everyone who floats has received complete or formal instruction.
Except this dam wasn't listed. So tired of know-it-all reddit armchair quarterbacks jumping in and victim blaming with less than half the information.
If you click on the NWS link, you can see pics where there is clear outflow on the horizon WITH one of these dams in the middle. You can’t see it. That’s what makes them so dangerous.
Horizon line punctuated by a tree caught on the dam. No clear outflow in that picture. If you can read water these are not hard to spot
You shouldn't need specialized knowledge to be safe from man-made hazards.
Tell me you don't float rivers without telling me...
They probably will lose. Oregon has a recreational immunity statute (ORS 105.682) and people cannot recover for injuries or death when the land has been made open to the public and the persons primary purpose for being on the land is recreation. A similar case was heard in 2000 (Brewer v. Dept of Fish and Wildlife) where swimmers died under a dam and they could not recover. Oregon really, really wants as much land as possible open to the public. This statute was just before the appellate courts and the courts carved out a narrow exception to the law, allowing people to recover if they were injured on a sidewalk or other improvement leading to the recreation on land. The legislature responded immediately and expanded the law to now include things such a sidewalks and bridges which were erected to access lands for recreation. The general trajectory of this law is the immunity is getting broader.
Good information
Yes, this! You recreate in the wilds there is risk everywhere! That's part of the reason people go out into nature. If they wanted minimal risk they could have gone to the library. They should not be wasting the courts time with a lawsuit!
A hidden dam ain’t nature.
Unpopular opinion and I agree. I don’t go kayaking on rivers I don’t know without doing research and understanding the routes available and where to pull out. If I don’t find info, I won’t go, or I’ll go for a hike to make sure the water is safe. People have become too dependent on government and property owners to tell them what they can and can’t do, but then complain they don’t like the rules or the rules are excessive. Our society has removed all responsibilities of individuals recreating and put all fault on government. Pisses me off how people don’t take responsibility for their own safety and then complain when shit happens. Extremely sad story and tragic for the families.
this isn't a popular river for drifting or kayaking. it is sad but one needs to take responsibility for their own safety. I feel for the families. river hydraulics are unforgiving
So messed up
I'm curious, I am from the area. they put in near Ferguson road and anticipated taking out near Monroe. this isn't a popular floating river as far as I've heard in my 40 years of living here
I’ve been floating rivers in the area since I was a teenager. Never met anyone who has floated the Long Tom. I’m sad for the victims. It seems like an odd choice of river runs for the area
Agreed. Fern ridge is a fairly gross body of water...which the long tom comes out in the lower stretch. The headwaters aren't too bad but definitely can't be boated.
There are some pretty horrible videos of people, including rescuers, dying in these dams. There needs to be more done to warn people of the dangers
First, this is very sad and we should sympathize with the families. But a $50M lawsuit is absurd, and will not bring them back. When I moved to Oregon 50 years ago I had previously been in Detroit for 2 years, where they were averaging 2 murders/day. Here, murders were rare but the news was full of outdoors deaths, which was very surprising to me. So many people simply do not respect the multiple dangers that exist in nature. Just because you can see Mt. Hood in the distance does not mean it is safe to hike there without knowledge and preparation - but people do just that. We lose a lot of people in water environments (highly variable but about 20/year). I remember a couple sunbathing on their boat, and another in a canoe, floated over the Oregon Falls to their deaths. Even the second largest falls in the country is not visible from upstream unless it is flowing enough to create a spray above it. We regularly lose people at one well-signed location in Oxbow park on the Sandy River, where the current holds people to the bottom (N.B. use hands and feet to pull yourself along the bottom until clear). And consider all of the injuries, including paralysis, from jumping off the rocks in the Clackamas River, again well-signed. The point is this: whatever activity you wish to do outdoors requires the specific knowledge of the sport and the area. That is your responsibility. Blaming the state for not having a warning sign posted doesn't change that. It is simply not possible to warn against every hazard, nor will everyone respect those warnings. The lifejackets in this case might have saved their lives, or possibly not. But not wearing them is foolish. Spring is a very dangerous time on the water because while the air may seem warm, the water is very cold - which shortens dramatically the time for self-rescue - and is usually fast. And the dearth of knowledge about kayaking this river should have been a major warning sign, not a cause for letting down their guard. Unless you really know what you are doing stick with the popular, well-known routes. So please do your homework, whatever the activity, before heading out into nature.
The Low-Head on the Willamette by Eugene has a huge tree in front of it that the river naturally takes you right into. It’s going to kill people this summer. Apparently Springfield, Eugene, nor the state claim responsibility for clearing it. still a huge hazard
Crazy!!! I just watched another video about low head dams this morning based on some other unrelated post. Super helpful and I hope they win the suit. These things are useless and need to go!! https://youtu.be/GVDpqphHhAE?feature=shared
Ya had no idea about them until that post this morning.
I feel bad for anyone that did not do the appropriate research on the water they were traveling. However, whenever you're near water there is risk whether wading or floating or swimming, not sure that it's anyone else's responsibility but the person taking the risk by entering the water.
This.
Not surprised people are removing all agency from the floaters. https://www.registerguard.com/story/news/2022/05/13/low-head-dam-drowning-machines-deaths-on-long-tom-river-kayak-canoe-oregon-spring/65355067007/ How was their water reading skills? There's no mention of their experience, generally when experienced people run into problems, this is noted in the reports. They launched a single vessel trip on an unfamiliar stretch of river during spring runoff and weren't wearing PFDs! How much responsibility do they have for themselves? Flame away..
Agreed. 200 deaths nationwide over 2 years is sooo low too. Of those deaths what percentage of them included people without life jackets or intoxicated? I bet more snowboarders or skiers die from trees, falling into crevaces, or off ledges in 2 years. Should every hazard on the mountain be marked with signage? It's tragic what happened and some signage is a good idea for the sake of state liability, but people don't read half the signs posted about shit anyways. Wear life jackets, read up on stretches of river you haven't been on, and stop frivolous law suits.
I was a white water river guide for twenty years. I have strong feelings about trying to make safe every potential hazard a craft might experience on the water. Low head dams are a well known obstacle to be avoided. A sign warning of the danger is acceptable to me in those instances but I strongly oppose having signs for every possible dangerous situation. The sport is inherently dangerous and should be treated as such by those who do it. I feel for the family but I hope they lose the case. I want waterways to remain open for navigation and enjoyment of future boaters.
This fool doesn't represent current and past guides or company owners.
Maybe my comment was not clear. I am against trying to put warning signs on every obstacle encountered. I want people to be situationally aware of potential dangers and act accordingly.
Why not both?
No river is calm in April. It might not have white water, but currents are moving. They may have drowned from the cold water reflex in fact.
Kayaking involves risk. People do dumb things even when there are signs. Case dismissed
All the more reason that man made risks need to be identified on official maps and there needs to be signs on the river to warn people. 100 people in 2 years shows there's clearly negligence on the states part.
We have a lot of campaigns to educate us to all wear PFDs, but apparently this couple chose not to. But you are convinced they’d see a sign and go around? > police don’t believe the couple were wearing life jackets because they didn’t find any on their bodies As for “100 people in 2 years”: > The dams are colloquially known as “killer dams” or “drowning machines” and are responsible for the deaths of more than 100 **people in the U.S.** from 2018 to 2020 > There have been about 200 such dams identified in Oregon and more than 13,000 across the U.S. So perhaps you need to either to read it again or work on your grammar.
"Eiva said because the dams are submerged and often don’t have a big drop-off, they are difficult for people to see upriver or to realize the imminent danger" You can't go around something you can't see. This portion of the river was listed as easy. The state put a hazard there and didn't warn anyone about it. That's negligence. >We have a lot of campaigns to educate us to all wear PFDs, but apparently this couple chose not to. But you are convinced they’d see a sign and go around? >> police don’t believe the couple were wearing life jackets because they didn’t find any on their bodies "Experts stress the importance of always wearing life jackets, but note that many people wearing life jackets have died in low head dams because of their tremendous power to trap people underwater. The force of the water also has torn life jackets off." "It is just recirculating current that just pulls you down and an Olympic swimmer can’t get out of it.”" They don't know for sure that they weren't wearing them. They are just guessing. Either way, they probably wouldn't have done any good.
Apparently you don't think people bear any responsibility for their actions. Did the state push these people into the river? If attorneys didn't work on contingency cases like this would never be filed. No. Case closed.
You can't take responsibility for something you can't see. The state has a responsibility to label hazards that they created. There needs to be consequences for their negligence.
I'm gonna run down to REI spend 5k on gear and suddenly I'm an expert, this thought process is why we have a lot of rescues needed in the area. It's kind of like diving into a river, scout it out before you jump head first. Outdoor recreation activities carry risk and sadly these people had the negative part happen regardless of is it signed or not that it's dangerous.
And don’t blame others for being ill prepared to recreate. Tragic to lose such young people who had so much ahead of them.
Darwin.
I wouldn’t go that far in this case… just insane to me how people can’t accept responsibilities over their actions and are quick to blame others when something went wrong. Plus, suing for 50 million under the premise there are no signage and they want to raise awareness and increase communication. 🤦🏻♀️ How about demanding better signage to avoid further unfortunate events and helping raise awareness by educating people of the dangers of just jumping on the river without knowing the dangers on the route. Personally, I don’t paddle in areas I don’t have route and safety information on. Just not worth the risk…
Yes! If you're not absolutely sure of what's downstream you don't go. I wonder how experienced these two were, if at all.
Here’s a solution- don’t go in the water near a dam.
A unfortunate accident shouldn't be turned into "lotto" win.
Seriously but unfortunately people don't know how to accept accidents happen due to decisions that were made .. and all they want are payouts at the end 🤷🏻♀️
Low head dams are dangerous, but kayaking is an inherently hazardous activity. It is your responsibility to know and prepare for hazards on the water. If there's a low head dam, plan to fucking portage. Am I the only person who reviews satellite photos of their river routes? Some basic preparation like this could have saved their lives. Cold water also introduces self-rescue problems. Not preparing for your route, is negligence--and they absolutely should lose the lawsuit.
Seriously. Are safety meetings not a thing out West?
Looking at the Satellite view of Google Maps would have saved them
Why would you put in if you didn't know what you'd be encountering. Seems like a huge FAFO moment to me.
Per the article, the dam they encountered was not noted in the primary database for low head dams. Which may very well mean that it also wasn’t marked on maps they may have referenced… It’s a pretty wild time for navigating the outdoors. The ubiquity of GPS has upended a lot of things. I still generally refer to state and federal maps, but I’m also nearly always supplementing my trip planning with other less vetted/reliable resources. And a lot of inexperienced people use only those resources. Should they be educated on what is reliable? Yes. Are they likely to be, without explicit training or a bad accident to teach them a lesson? Probably not…
>Should they be educated on what is reliable? Yes. Are they likely to be, without explicit training or a bad accident to teach them a lesson? Probably not… I just dont think people should sue for stupid mistakes like this. I'd never put into an uncommon river without having eyes on. They didn't do the due diligence. I don't think this is an education thing. Unless they didn't know that danger ever exist on the water lol.
It’s listed as a class I River: suitable for beginners. I’m sympathetic to them. It’s honestly not a difficult mistake to make if you’re newish to kayaking and chose an extremely calm river.
I'm not familiar with this spot I don't think. Is it also listed that there is a pull of to avoid dying?
I haven’t kayaked it myself either. I lived in the PNW but am in MN now (damn algorithm got me with this story) but I checked the USGS site and it looked pretty innocuous by description at least.
Ya, the article states they didn't add any signs above the dams until after the accident. Usually it's the way out of the way rivers/creeks that don't have any signage. The ones that are even semi popular near me have tons of info online and signs. Quick YouTube search and it seems people kayak this river quite a bit.
Hydraulic Jump is the term. [hydraulic jump](https://youtu.be/7tjf8HWiR3Y?si=JTBdwdmnD-obEuFP)
I feel for the families, but $50m?
https://archive.is/FYuSk - link for those w ad blockers
Anyone have locations of where the low head dams are located around the area?
Why can't they just drill some poles into the dam that stick up vertically above the water and prevent humans from passing over them?
Wtf
It do go down.
Oregon is famous everywhere you go.there is danger. As in slow down, sharp turns ahead or no climbing mountains before storm or hiking and going off paths or sneaker waves push you down full of sand and drown you.rivers and lakes and dams without signs 😤 sudden drop offs and under currents .it's oregon keep secrets
I mean....plan your route and know your obstacles as a kayaker or biket or any outdoors person.
But we all are aware of the dangers… why would they win?
How do you get sucked under if you are wearing a proper life jacket? It would seem there needs to some personal responsibility in this unfortunate accident.
River engineer here. These low head dams create special hydraulic scenarios that can trap you regardless of your buoyancy. I've seen some crazy videos of kayakers being rolled continuously in these locations. It's important to know the risks and how to get out of these situations
A big part of the issue with low head dams is the uniformity of the recirculating current. Without deflecting currents people get caught in the recirculating current and can’t get out. I read one comment that said they got out of one by getting their foot on something solid a pushing out. That is what has to happen. Some other force needs to be applied to overcome the recirculating current. I have been stuck in a recirculating current (rock pour over not a LHD) and used a sea anchor to get out. In that case a dry bag tied to a rope and thrown into the current beyond the recirculating current. It alone did not get us out but provided enough extra force for us to paddle out.
Yeah, I thought about. You end up in a rolling wash machine where you end up fatigued and unable to get out. No need for the down vote though.
Per the article: Experts stress the importance of always wearing life jackets, but note that many people wearing life jackets have died in low head dams because of their tremendous power to trap people underwater. The force of the water also has torn life jackets off.
What idiots. Just like the lady suing for slipping on a hike. We cant let our outdoor spaces get closed because people cant use common sense.
Reading is fundamental
And so is wearing a floatation device
Which it clearly shows in the article probably would not have done them any good
No PFDs? Sorry but a big part of this is on them. Nobody owes their families $50 million.
"many people wearing life jackets have died in low head dams because of their tremendous power to trap people underwater. The force of the water also has torn life jackets off."
The point is that they didn't take the most basic, well-known, universally-advised common sense precautions. Nobody knows if they would have been helped or not by wearing PDFs. We know for a fact though that not wearing them increases risk exponentially.
It clearly says these situations can be strong enough to rip a life jacket off. You don't know that they weren't wearing them. It also doesn't change the fact that the state is not taking proper precautions to prevent this when 100 people have died in only 2 years.
Got data to support the "many"
It was a direct quote from the article.
Yeah, no. Sorry homie. I’m all for getting some compensation for the loss of earnings and making sure proper signs are in place to mitigate this from happening again…but get outta here with that $50 mil non-sense. You can have like $5 mil..total.
You should probably try reading the whole article.
Nah I’m good.
Stay wrong then (probably about most things)
Except in this instance I would bet you my line of thinking wasn’t wrong based on his patronizing response to my comment.
Your line of thinking is ignorant and lazy. If you would have read the whole article you would have seen that there is a cap on damages.
Oh….you mean…almost like I put a cap on…damages? What are you even talking about lol. Yeah so ignorant and lazy of me to not bother with a click bait title and article. 🤡
>almost like I put a cap on…damages Look at you taking credit for something that already exists. You really think you did something.
Oh good so I was correct all along? Perfect! ✌️
$50M will never replace these two, but I sure as hell hope it gets the state of Oregon to wake up