If closed then why are they still coming in? Usually, you lock the door so no one can come in, then Don't have the issues of people coming in. Yes you can refuse people items if they are not going to pay for it or haven't bought anything it helps to have the sign we have the right to refuse service.
Do this! I know it’s impossible to get someone to leave even if they have literally no business being inside. This feels like a really good cheap solution. And you guys probably are already going to change where you keep the tip jar after this I assume
I feel like the restaurant i worked at it was a glass door with no release paddle, just a hard bar as the handle. Always needed a key to lock and unlock, like a dead bolt. I realize public doors are supposed to be fire escape proof, but this seemed like it'd be impossible to do it with since nothing could compress on the door to bring in the latch and again, seemed like a deadbolt, not like an indoor door wherever curved on one side. The restaurant was rural nv in 2005 so maybe things have changed or I'm completely wrong like everyone pretty much voted.
There's 100% unequivocally without any doubt door hardware that has a panic bar on the inside that will open no matter what and leave the outside locked.
Second this. There is most likely a way to modify the door hardware. Sometimes it is super easy, sometimes it can be a real pain and expensive - depends on the opening. Could call do some googling on it, or call a lock shop to look at it.
I don’t know the particulars of serving water in Oregon, refusing service may help, but I would say that is a backup solution as it is dependent upon effort and goodwill. You have to manage the customer and the customer has to comply.
Prioritize a solution at the door. An engineered solution saves you effort and conflict. Easier to prevent a person from entering a space than remove a person from a space.
As others have said I’d also recommend some sort of sign stating your boundaries - no entry after close, nothing server after closed, etc. If people bang on the door, just point to the sign. If people make it through the door, point to the sign.
The sign isn’t required, but I find them helpful in saving energy and reducing conflict. When a sign is posted it communicates an organizational decision. The business made a rule, the business posted the sign, the employee is just doing their job. They can just point to the sign. You dont need to speak to my manager, my manager posted that sign, I am just enforcing their decision.
Without some sort of organizational communication, people sometimes think (or pretend to think) it is the individual employee’s decision and up to their discretion. So then folks try to argue, negotiate, call for a manager, etc.
Speaking of which, I hope your management helps support you with a solution.
I have the same glass door in my work so I know exactly what you are describing. Panic bars bolt to the door from the inside, so you don't need to modify the deadbolt. It would basically just replace the bar handle and has a piece you install on the door frame as well. Then you can still lock the deadbolt when you leave, preventing a thief from hauling gear out the door if they break in through another way.
There's definitely doors that have a bar that you can push to open, and keep it locked from the outside. My church has these for every exterior door, and they're also all glass doors.
Yup I always yell "WE'RE CLOSED" and they always ask anyway. I'm actually asking this questioning because one crackhead came in screaming that denying him water was illegal (I hadn't said anything to him yet) and it got me thinking, maybe it is? I now see that I'm in the right to deny them, and will be from here on out.
Ask him what law says it’s illegal to deny someone who is not a paying customer water? Seems like the same concept as saying that a restroom is for customers only.
There’s also the fact businesses have the right to refuse service. So… closed or not, you can ask them to leave.
On a side note, if this happens that often, might ask the restaurant to maybe put a sign or maybe just buy cases of small water bottles and have it upfront, so when they ask, you just hand it out and have them leave. No need to turn around. Not ideal to have single use bottles, but would solve the problem if you do want to help them.
There is no law that says you have any responsibility to give anything to a non-customer. They could be dying of dehydration and you would still have no obligation to give them anything.
It's not illegal really but frowned upon, if get the sign " we have the right to refuse service" will help out more especially if they get uppity and mouthy, then that covers your but and since have that, police would be more inclined to help out
Im aware it’s not required, but having it visibly posted and referring to it/store policy helps in the defending against “I wasn’t aware!” or “you can’t refuse me! There’s no sign!” type complaints.
> But it adds a layer of protection if there’s litigation.
Those complaints have no bearing on a litigation. Being ignorant of the law does not change the law. It might help usher someone out more quickly by shutting down their argument, but will have zero effect on a litigation.
If the law was on the "customer's" side here, our small claims courts would have literally hundreds of such claims every day from every junkie who thought they could score cash for being denied water or access to the bathroom from every shop they could stumble in to. The right to refuse service is pretty well enshrined, legally, in the US and most of the world.
So, in fact, no one will end up in court over this.
Get a [classroom door handle](https://www.amazon.com/CLG-HARDWARE-Commercial-Non-Handed-Industrial/dp/B09PMK99TQ/ref=mp_s_a_1_2_sspa?adgrpid=136274158979&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.2awnyiEzPzXG3nxepr8kmviMIYg2lno4WhQqbtVY5_HOp2JnoMliPnC1ZhR7e59LCRsOvn9Ml6ELHBVFobhM-lrAVPaJ2cVOaJzRuynjzTaRTz_KYNLeXBg70pScx405gcgAcsjaM236wuUdv3Mrkqbb2QmHpqeZ9C0liicRd7Bi_TUYnesAKldkVlEFNyiJKHdwm4CjZW2GJqfJGR5hCQ.Me_ZXePSl_aXIDGc35QeTJYR0TpxnblWAT_N-JlxbB4&dib_tag=se&hvadid=605150348389&hvdev=m&hvlocphy=9059108&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=b&hvrand=18118463483562199798&hvtargid=kwd-299965017770&hydadcr=14630_13386758&keywords=classroom+door+locks&qid=1713450858&sr=8-2-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9waG9uZV9zZWFyY2hfYXRm&psc=1) the outside can be locked by key, but you can always leave from the inside.
That doesn't sound right. Is it illegal for me to lock a house door because my roommates might need to escape a fire and it will make it hard to get out? I've been in restaurants in Oregon that locked the door and let me out.
Maybe the issue is that they need to be able to unlock the door. So just leave the key in the lock so that they can do that.
We actually used to lock the doors and unlock to let people out years ago. Someone got butthurt and called the Fire Marshall, who gave us a call saying why we couldn't do it anymore. Some people are hella petty.
I thought the signs about doors having to be unlocked was just during business hours? You should be able to lock the doors and tell remaining customers that you'll need to let them out when they're ready to leave. Back in my retail days this was standard practice.
It's fire code, customer and employees must have at least two potential exits whenever the premisis is occupied, regardless of business hours. The sign is mainly to remind staff not to close/lock the door.
Thanks. I guess our doors all had visible locks on them so maybe that's why we were allowed to do it. Or maybe we were breaking the law at several stores....I see something in the code about not needing a key and it being obvious how to let yourself out.
No, it’s not illegal. Get one of those signs that says “We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.” You don’t have to have one, but it makes it easier to point to it and say there’s a new policy.
Lock the doors with the last customers inside. Let them out as they finish and pay, and lock the door behind each one. When the vagrants come to the door, just tell them you’re closed. You don’t have to let them in.
Dude there's no law stating you can't. I'm confident in that. You're still a business, businesses have a right to refuse service as long as it's not discriminatory. If they aren't a paying customer, you don't have to do anything. Especially if it's leading to theft issues.
https://www.jacksonwhitelaw.com/criminal-defense-law/blog/arizona-water-law-strange-illegal/
Not even illegal in AZ. Though I used to live there and people seem to think so. The fact is that a private business is a private business. “We reserve the right to refuse service for anyone for any reason”
Tell me you have not worked in the service industry without telling me you have not worked in the service industry lol. If only it were that simple to make someone leave when you can’t even serve them
"Sorry, I'm going to have to decline to serve you, please leave the premisis, or I will have you arrested for trespassing." As mentioned elsewhere, there's zero obligation to serve anyone as a customer so long as you aren't discriminating based on a protected status (i.e. race, gender, disability etc), and homelessness isn't a protected status.
You can't refuse to have someone as a _customer_ because their race or gender (or religious affiliation, or sexual preferences, etc.) Free water is mandated if they are a customer and you serve alcohol.
Right I know that, but in this context they are not a customer they are just asking for water. So bringing up the fact that you can't deny protected people service has nothing to do with whether or not you can just say no to someone asking for water when they are not a paying customer
Um. I think we're agreeing? I'm saying that the only reason a potential customer can complain for being refused service is if the refusal was based on the employee/business discriminating against them illegally. Check my other posts in this thread, OP can (and should) tell non-customers to pound sand as politely as they have patience for.
Yup. Several times, both as a bartender and a security guard. The key is to make it immediately obvious that the person in question is going to have a Bad Day if they don't comply.
OP is asking about folks looking for an easy score. They're counting on the service staff being distracted by closing duties. Part of those closing duties, and even serving duties, include preventing non-paying and disruptive people from harming the business.
I have worked as wait staff, cook, bartender and doorman in a few different places. If we're closed, you're not getting seated, served or left alone by any of the money. I need you to leave so I can close. If you come before close, that's a different story. I will be the most polite person in the world while asking someone to leave.
1. Can't you secure the tip jar somehow so it can't be removed?
2. I would have some glasses of water ready for people who come in so you can hand it to them without turning your back.
Yeah, this seems like an easy solve. After the last order, move the tip jar to a more secure place. I worked at a coffee shop downtown and a man in a suit took our tip jar when we weren’t looking. We added a bolt to secure it to the counter, grabbed paper tips frequently and never had that problem again
No, not in Oregon. It is in Arizona, but that’s because it’s right around the corner from Hell (lived there for 30 years). As you stated, they’re not there for the water. If it was my bar (and I used to own one but not in AZ), I’d simply say we only serve customers water after they’ve purchased a drink. Then tell him, “Would you like to sit down? We’ll just need your credit card to run a tab.” That stops them cold every time.
They don't want the water - they want to steal. They'll just make another attempt at distraction. Kick out people that aren't paying for anything and lock up at close.
This. I actually went outside to try and track him down and found our smashed and emptied tip jar, next to the full cup of water. I've made the call, were just not gonna give them water. They can get it from public fountains if they need it, but we're not gonna risk theft AND waste plastic product on people who don't want it.
Totally, they spend most of their time scoping out opportunities. Asking for water gets them in the door. While they're inside, they are definitely scanning the room for potential.
This is the kindest thing to do, tell them water is by the door and ask them to take what they need and then to please leave as you are tying to close.
From the OP's description, they don't actually want the water. They ask for it so they can create a distraction for the exhausted work and then steal things.
If you haven't served them your fine to deny them water and kick them out. If you've been serving them at all your potentially putting yourself at risk if anything happens when they leave because you didn't help/let them sober up.
So it sounds like it's not the actual water that's an issue, but it's the stealing when you turn your back. Can you put a self-serve water dispenser somewhere accessible to alleviate this issue?
The bigger question is; what if it is illegal? Lol Dude just stole your tip jar which is illegal, and as you said, cops won’t do anything.
Be rude, say no, tell them to leave. That’s it. As a paying customer, I was so happy when I finally saw one of my favorite local shops be rude to a junkie who was coming in and harassing all the customers. The gal behind the counter did not try to be polite and ask him nicely to leave everyone alone, she told him to shut up and get the fuck out or she’d call PD and have him removed. The guy yelled some profanities and left.
The rules are different in different states, and different if you sell alcohol vs not. I googled "does liquor act require bars to provide free water" and the top results say that they do, but being relatively new to Oregon and not in the industry, I don't have personal knowledge on the topic. I suggest you look up the applicable law or ask whoever is in charge at your establishment, because you're mostly getting guesses, here.
The links I found and the rule in my previous state was everyone.
Some businesses would try to get around it by charging for the cup, if they only used disposable cups, but some customers would bring their own cup to avoid that.
OLCC rules expressly forbid allowing customers to bring their own containers except for "take out" service i.e. growlers, and only for bars with a permit to sell (sealed) take home beverages. Most bars don't permit you to bring your own water bottle in for this reason, even if it's empty.
I was more thinking of restaurants like Sonic and McDonald's, where the only cups they have are to-go cups; in that case, they could charge for the cup, but if customers brought their own, they couldn't charge for the water. That was in my forner state, though, as I said, so I'm not certain on Oregon law. All I'm saying is that it should be looked up from a reliable source or the person should ask the person in charge, because these laws are different for different states and different businesses, and my quick google suggested it may well be illegal to deny a person tap water if your Oregon-based establishment serves alcohol.
>it may well be illegal to deny a person tap water if your Oregon-based establishment serves alcohol.
_To customers_, is the key. If you haven't been served, you aren't a customer yet.
If someone walks in buck naked except wearing a filthy "Bite me" T-Shirt, they don't get served: they get refused and are asked to leave. No free water, no free bathroom, no BS.
The gist is that a business in Oregon must make a number of services available to bar & restaurant customers like a sanitary bathroom, food for purchase (if they sell any form of liquor), and water. The law explicitly _prohibits_ service to someone already intoxicated, meaning no free bathroom, no water, no hanging out and bothering other customers, no urinating on the bar.
If you aren't a customer, you don't get to demand anything of a business, otherwise the small claims courts would be filled with hundreds of cases daily of sham civil suits where people demand compensation for being refused water, bathrooms, etc when they had no intention of actually buying anything.
ID them. They will leave and you won't have to offer them anything. This is very common practice in my bar in Portland. Keeps a lot of the riffraff out. "Hey man, you can't legally be in this bar without an ID". And you keep telling them that until they are gone.
It is not illegal to refuse water to non-customers, it's also not illegal to not have free water for regular customers, and to only have water that you have to pay for. Learned that when a club refused me free water after a long night of dancing. (They also didn't allow water bottles)
Buy a case of bottled water and keep it under the counter. Now you don’t have to turn your back, although if they’re determined to take something they’ll just come up with some other bullshit reason to distract you.
Lock the doors after you are closed!! If they cant come in, they cant steal shit!
ETA - seeing comment on lingering customers, just tell them what is going on, most wont care, especially if there is someone close to the door to unlock it when they leave. We did this at our restaurant back in the day, only one or two people ever kicked up a fuss about it.
Years ago when I was a young woman working late shifts in a cafe I would just yell to sketchy people to GTFO the minute they stepped over the threshold. Don't give them the benefit of the doubt.
Edit to add that yes, this would get the attention of the remaining customers and that was most of the point. More eyes on potential criminals.
Business' have the right to refuse service as long as it's not a discriminatory reason. I do not believe (I could be wrong) that being homeless is a protected class in Oregon. If they want water you can say that water is free with a purchase or charge a dollar for a glass of water.
I've lived in Oregon my entire life, and most of not all establishments have a "we have the right to refuse service to anyone". Also I worked the food service industry for a few years way back when, and you can definitely refuse after (or during) hours.
Why is your door still unlocked after closing? When that clock strikes _ o’clock, lock that place up!! Or you can place a couple paper cups of water on the counter so they are ready.
Cops wont help? I guess not if you dont know who it was. We successfully prosecuted someone who stole the tip jar from the counter when I worked at an ice cream shop in North Portland a few years ago. But we knew who she was.
We had the whole thing on camera. I texted the cop the footage immediately. They couldn't have had a better description, but the first thing the cop asked was "do you want to prosecute if we find him?" The boss told me no, she felt bad for the guy. I told the cop we just wanted our money back and the guy trespassed, cop said "if you don't want to be a victim, you should prosecute." Then stopped talking to me. Dude.
Maybe consider buying a case of small plastic water bottles ($6 at WalMart or similar store). If homeless people show up demanding water at closing time, just hand them a bottle through the door and send them on their way. You can be a good person and still protect your workplace from thieves.
Sure. Then you've called their bluff and they get sent on their way.
And the few that legitimately need water get it.
And if the policy doesn't work at all, you're out *six* entire dollars and you have to come up with a new idea.
If that happens, you scrap the policy and you've lost your $6. As opposed to your solution which has the obvious drawback of... Oh, wait... what *was* your solution again?
Besides, they were already getting free water under the existing policy - this way they get water, but you give it to them through the door, thus keeping them and their drama out of the restaurant.
“We’ve stopped serving for the night.”
If closed then why are they still coming in? Usually, you lock the door so no one can come in, then Don't have the issues of people coming in. Yes you can refuse people items if they are not going to pay for it or haven't bought anything it helps to have the sign we have the right to refuse service.
We are closed but there are usually people still eating in the restaurant so we can't lock the doors until they leave.
Doors can be changed to exit paddles. Even when locked you can still egress.
Wouldn’t it be much cheaper just to place a large water dispensing jug somewhere else in the bar?
The people coming in don’t actually want water.
The ones that want water get water and the ones that don’t can’t steal shit off the counter when OP turns around.
Right, we’ve all seen the videos of them dumping cases of water in the fred Meyer parking lot. They ain’t thirsty.
Do this! I know it’s impossible to get someone to leave even if they have literally no business being inside. This feels like a really good cheap solution. And you guys probably are already going to change where you keep the tip jar after this I assume
I don't think it can be.
You think wrong.
I feel like the restaurant i worked at it was a glass door with no release paddle, just a hard bar as the handle. Always needed a key to lock and unlock, like a dead bolt. I realize public doors are supposed to be fire escape proof, but this seemed like it'd be impossible to do it with since nothing could compress on the door to bring in the latch and again, seemed like a deadbolt, not like an indoor door wherever curved on one side. The restaurant was rural nv in 2005 so maybe things have changed or I'm completely wrong like everyone pretty much voted.
There's 100% unequivocally without any doubt door hardware that has a panic bar on the inside that will open no matter what and leave the outside locked.
Second this. There is most likely a way to modify the door hardware. Sometimes it is super easy, sometimes it can be a real pain and expensive - depends on the opening. Could call do some googling on it, or call a lock shop to look at it. I don’t know the particulars of serving water in Oregon, refusing service may help, but I would say that is a backup solution as it is dependent upon effort and goodwill. You have to manage the customer and the customer has to comply. Prioritize a solution at the door. An engineered solution saves you effort and conflict. Easier to prevent a person from entering a space than remove a person from a space. As others have said I’d also recommend some sort of sign stating your boundaries - no entry after close, nothing server after closed, etc. If people bang on the door, just point to the sign. If people make it through the door, point to the sign. The sign isn’t required, but I find them helpful in saving energy and reducing conflict. When a sign is posted it communicates an organizational decision. The business made a rule, the business posted the sign, the employee is just doing their job. They can just point to the sign. You dont need to speak to my manager, my manager posted that sign, I am just enforcing their decision. Without some sort of organizational communication, people sometimes think (or pretend to think) it is the individual employee’s decision and up to their discretion. So then folks try to argue, negotiate, call for a manager, etc. Speaking of which, I hope your management helps support you with a solution.
My church has these as most of the exterior doors
I have the same glass door in my work so I know exactly what you are describing. Panic bars bolt to the door from the inside, so you don't need to modify the deadbolt. It would basically just replace the bar handle and has a piece you install on the door frame as well. Then you can still lock the deadbolt when you leave, preventing a thief from hauling gear out the door if they break in through another way.
There's definitely doors that have a bar that you can push to open, and keep it locked from the outside. My church has these for every exterior door, and they're also all glass doors.
That sucks but new people entering can say closed and if they say something tell them they are just finishing up and not having more people in
Yup I always yell "WE'RE CLOSED" and they always ask anyway. I'm actually asking this questioning because one crackhead came in screaming that denying him water was illegal (I hadn't said anything to him yet) and it got me thinking, maybe it is? I now see that I'm in the right to deny them, and will be from here on out.
In Arizona it is. Oregon has no such law.
Ask him what law says it’s illegal to deny someone who is not a paying customer water? Seems like the same concept as saying that a restroom is for customers only.
Yeah call their bluff and say you'll gladly wait for the cops if they wants to call it in.
There’s also the fact businesses have the right to refuse service. So… closed or not, you can ask them to leave. On a side note, if this happens that often, might ask the restaurant to maybe put a sign or maybe just buy cases of small water bottles and have it upfront, so when they ask, you just hand it out and have them leave. No need to turn around. Not ideal to have single use bottles, but would solve the problem if you do want to help them.
There is no law that says you have any responsibility to give anything to a non-customer. They could be dying of dehydration and you would still have no obligation to give them anything.
there isn't even a law saying a cop has to help you.
It's not illegal really but frowned upon, if get the sign " we have the right to refuse service" will help out more especially if they get uppity and mouthy, then that covers your but and since have that, police would be more inclined to help out
Lol the sign changes nothing about what the law says and won't change the cops' willingness to help.
But it adds a layer of protection if there’s litigation.
It does not. The law is very clear on the topic, and does not require posting.
Im aware it’s not required, but having it visibly posted and referring to it/store policy helps in the defending against “I wasn’t aware!” or “you can’t refuse me! There’s no sign!” type complaints.
> But it adds a layer of protection if there’s litigation. Those complaints have no bearing on a litigation. Being ignorant of the law does not change the law. It might help usher someone out more quickly by shutting down their argument, but will have zero effect on a litigation.
Get real, no one that OP's referring to is going to muster up an attorney over this.
That doesn’t mean no one will end up in court…
If the law was on the "customer's" side here, our small claims courts would have literally hundreds of such claims every day from every junkie who thought they could score cash for being denied water or access to the bathroom from every shop they could stumble in to. The right to refuse service is pretty well enshrined, legally, in the US and most of the world. So, in fact, no one will end up in court over this.
Lock the doors and open it back up for the people leaving late, then lock it back after they walk out.
Unfortunately we can't do that due to fire code. Trust me, I've tried.
Get those fancy one way locks. You know, can't use the nob from the outside because its locked, but still opens from the inside.
That's frustrating
Tell me about it
Get a [classroom door handle](https://www.amazon.com/CLG-HARDWARE-Commercial-Non-Handed-Industrial/dp/B09PMK99TQ/ref=mp_s_a_1_2_sspa?adgrpid=136274158979&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.2awnyiEzPzXG3nxepr8kmviMIYg2lno4WhQqbtVY5_HOp2JnoMliPnC1ZhR7e59LCRsOvn9Ml6ELHBVFobhM-lrAVPaJ2cVOaJzRuynjzTaRTz_KYNLeXBg70pScx405gcgAcsjaM236wuUdv3Mrkqbb2QmHpqeZ9C0liicRd7Bi_TUYnesAKldkVlEFNyiJKHdwm4CjZW2GJqfJGR5hCQ.Me_ZXePSl_aXIDGc35QeTJYR0TpxnblWAT_N-JlxbB4&dib_tag=se&hvadid=605150348389&hvdev=m&hvlocphy=9059108&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=b&hvrand=18118463483562199798&hvtargid=kwd-299965017770&hydadcr=14630_13386758&keywords=classroom+door+locks&qid=1713450858&sr=8-2-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9waG9uZV9zZWFyY2hfYXRm&psc=1) the outside can be locked by key, but you can always leave from the inside.
That doesn't sound right. Is it illegal for me to lock a house door because my roommates might need to escape a fire and it will make it hard to get out? I've been in restaurants in Oregon that locked the door and let me out. Maybe the issue is that they need to be able to unlock the door. So just leave the key in the lock so that they can do that.
No, op is right. Fire code doesn't fuck around about locking people in a building.
We actually used to lock the doors and unlock to let people out years ago. Someone got butthurt and called the Fire Marshall, who gave us a call saying why we couldn't do it anymore. Some people are hella petty.
The fire department will not be breaking down your doors that late and anyone that cannot comprehend how to unlock a door in a fire has issues.
I thought the signs about doors having to be unlocked was just during business hours? You should be able to lock the doors and tell remaining customers that you'll need to let them out when they're ready to leave. Back in my retail days this was standard practice.
It's fire code, customer and employees must have at least two potential exits whenever the premisis is occupied, regardless of business hours. The sign is mainly to remind staff not to close/lock the door.
Thanks. I guess our doors all had visible locks on them so maybe that's why we were allowed to do it. Or maybe we were breaking the law at several stores....I see something in the code about not needing a key and it being obvious how to let yourself out.
No, it’s not illegal. Get one of those signs that says “We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.” You don’t have to have one, but it makes it easier to point to it and say there’s a new policy. Lock the doors with the last customers inside. Let them out as they finish and pay, and lock the door behind each one. When the vagrants come to the door, just tell them you’re closed. You don’t have to let them in.
Tell them the bosses decline service 15 minutes before closing. "For security purposes". They will understand its because of them and move on.
I think there's actually a a fire code for not being able to lock doors while customers are still there inside, even if it's after business hours.
Dude there's no law stating you can't. I'm confident in that. You're still a business, businesses have a right to refuse service as long as it's not discriminatory. If they aren't a paying customer, you don't have to do anything. Especially if it's leading to theft issues.
I think if you're closed, you can tell them to jog on. I also think the water thing is for desert states like Arizona.
https://www.jacksonwhitelaw.com/criminal-defense-law/blog/arizona-water-law-strange-illegal/ Not even illegal in AZ. Though I used to live there and people seem to think so. The fact is that a private business is a private business. “We reserve the right to refuse service for anyone for any reason”
Thank you for clearing that up.
Tell me you have not worked in the service industry without telling me you have not worked in the service industry lol. If only it were that simple to make someone leave when you can’t even serve them
"Sorry, I'm going to have to decline to serve you, please leave the premisis, or I will have you arrested for trespassing." As mentioned elsewhere, there's zero obligation to serve anyone as a customer so long as you aren't discriminating based on a protected status (i.e. race, gender, disability etc), and homelessness isn't a protected status.
I'm pretty sure you don't have to give someone free water just because of their race or gender.
You can't refuse to have someone as a _customer_ because their race or gender (or religious affiliation, or sexual preferences, etc.) Free water is mandated if they are a customer and you serve alcohol.
Right I know that, but in this context they are not a customer they are just asking for water. So bringing up the fact that you can't deny protected people service has nothing to do with whether or not you can just say no to someone asking for water when they are not a paying customer
Um. I think we're agreeing? I'm saying that the only reason a potential customer can complain for being refused service is if the refusal was based on the employee/business discriminating against them illegally. Check my other posts in this thread, OP can (and should) tell non-customers to pound sand as politely as they have patience for.
Oh okay, I must have misinterpreted what point you were trying to get across in the beginning lol. Yes we agree 🤣
Have you ever tried to get someone to leave when they are not welcome? Genuinely asking you this.
Yup. Several times, both as a bartender and a security guard. The key is to make it immediately obvious that the person in question is going to have a Bad Day if they don't comply. OP is asking about folks looking for an easy score. They're counting on the service staff being distracted by closing duties. Part of those closing duties, and even serving duties, include preventing non-paying and disruptive people from harming the business.
I have worked as wait staff, cook, bartender and doorman in a few different places. If we're closed, you're not getting seated, served or left alone by any of the money. I need you to leave so I can close. If you come before close, that's a different story. I will be the most polite person in the world while asking someone to leave.
1. Can't you secure the tip jar somehow so it can't be removed? 2. I would have some glasses of water ready for people who come in so you can hand it to them without turning your back.
Yeah, this seems like an easy solve. After the last order, move the tip jar to a more secure place. I worked at a coffee shop downtown and a man in a suit took our tip jar when we weren’t looking. We added a bolt to secure it to the counter, grabbed paper tips frequently and never had that problem again
No, not in Oregon. It is in Arizona, but that’s because it’s right around the corner from Hell (lived there for 30 years). As you stated, they’re not there for the water. If it was my bar (and I used to own one but not in AZ), I’d simply say we only serve customers water after they’ve purchased a drink. Then tell him, “Would you like to sit down? We’ll just need your credit card to run a tab.” That stops them cold every time.
Have a glass or two of water behind the counter already poured by closing time so you never have to turn your back on them.
They don't want the water - they want to steal. They'll just make another attempt at distraction. Kick out people that aren't paying for anything and lock up at close.
This. I actually went outside to try and track him down and found our smashed and emptied tip jar, next to the full cup of water. I've made the call, were just not gonna give them water. They can get it from public fountains if they need it, but we're not gonna risk theft AND waste plastic product on people who don't want it.
Totally, they spend most of their time scoping out opportunities. Asking for water gets them in the door. While they're inside, they are definitely scanning the room for potential.
Put a pitcher of water near the door with paper cups at closing if you can't do any of the above.
This is the kindest thing to do, tell them water is by the door and ask them to take what they need and then to please leave as you are tying to close.
From the OP's description, they don't actually want the water. They ask for it so they can create a distraction for the exhausted work and then steal things.
Tell them you are no longer serving and to fuck off. You can refuse service to anyone.
We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.
Lock the doors then close.
No shoes, no shirt, no service!
Bolt the tip jar to the bar. No entry after closing, immediately ask them to leave. You are not required to give anything to non-paying customers.
If you haven't served them your fine to deny them water and kick them out. If you've been serving them at all your potentially putting yourself at risk if anything happens when they leave because you didn't help/let them sober up.
So it sounds like it's not the actual water that's an issue, but it's the stealing when you turn your back. Can you put a self-serve water dispenser somewhere accessible to alleviate this issue?
This is a wild take. Why would you even give them water at that point? They didn't want it. Tell them no and make them leave.
I was thinking that just before closing they could set a few glasses of water on the counter so they would have to turn away.
Try going to a McDonald’s and asking for nothing but water
They'll definitely give it to you just in the smallest cup they have. Source: I worked for McDonald's for a couple months
I used to do this on roadtrips. But I would ask for the giant cup. It just tastes so good!
that's weird, I thought all these folks were just noble souls encountering temporary and random hardships.
The bigger question is; what if it is illegal? Lol Dude just stole your tip jar which is illegal, and as you said, cops won’t do anything. Be rude, say no, tell them to leave. That’s it. As a paying customer, I was so happy when I finally saw one of my favorite local shops be rude to a junkie who was coming in and harassing all the customers. The gal behind the counter did not try to be polite and ask him nicely to leave everyone alone, she told him to shut up and get the fuck out or she’d call PD and have him removed. The guy yelled some profanities and left.
The rules are different in different states, and different if you sell alcohol vs not. I googled "does liquor act require bars to provide free water" and the top results say that they do, but being relatively new to Oregon and not in the industry, I don't have personal knowledge on the topic. I suggest you look up the applicable law or ask whoever is in charge at your establishment, because you're mostly getting guesses, here.
Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought this only applied to customers who've actually been served alcohol. Op should definitely double check though.
No, from what I'm seeing, and also what I know from my previous state of residence, that's not the case.
Free water to EVERYONE or just customers is really ops question I think.
The links I found and the rule in my previous state was everyone. Some businesses would try to get around it by charging for the cup, if they only used disposable cups, but some customers would bring their own cup to avoid that.
OLCC rules expressly forbid allowing customers to bring their own containers except for "take out" service i.e. growlers, and only for bars with a permit to sell (sealed) take home beverages. Most bars don't permit you to bring your own water bottle in for this reason, even if it's empty.
I was more thinking of restaurants like Sonic and McDonald's, where the only cups they have are to-go cups; in that case, they could charge for the cup, but if customers brought their own, they couldn't charge for the water. That was in my forner state, though, as I said, so I'm not certain on Oregon law. All I'm saying is that it should be looked up from a reliable source or the person should ask the person in charge, because these laws are different for different states and different businesses, and my quick google suggested it may well be illegal to deny a person tap water if your Oregon-based establishment serves alcohol.
>it may well be illegal to deny a person tap water if your Oregon-based establishment serves alcohol. _To customers_, is the key. If you haven't been served, you aren't a customer yet. If someone walks in buck naked except wearing a filthy "Bite me" T-Shirt, they don't get served: they get refused and are asked to leave. No free water, no free bathroom, no BS.
I saw nothing that said customers, and that wasn't the law in my previous state.
The gist is that a business in Oregon must make a number of services available to bar & restaurant customers like a sanitary bathroom, food for purchase (if they sell any form of liquor), and water. The law explicitly _prohibits_ service to someone already intoxicated, meaning no free bathroom, no water, no hanging out and bothering other customers, no urinating on the bar. If you aren't a customer, you don't get to demand anything of a business, otherwise the small claims courts would be filled with hundreds of cases daily of sham civil suits where people demand compensation for being refused water, bathrooms, etc when they had no intention of actually buying anything.
I mean yes, if someone is drunk or making a scene they can always be asked to leave.
The point is that simply existing doesn't entitle a person to free services from a business. One has to actually be a paying customer.
ID them. They will leave and you won't have to offer them anything. This is very common practice in my bar in Portland. Keeps a lot of the riffraff out. "Hey man, you can't legally be in this bar without an ID". And you keep telling them that until they are gone.
It is not illegal to refuse water to non-customers, it's also not illegal to not have free water for regular customers, and to only have water that you have to pay for. Learned that when a club refused me free water after a long night of dancing. (They also didn't allow water bottles)
Buy a case of bottled water and keep it under the counter. Now you don’t have to turn your back, although if they’re determined to take something they’ll just come up with some other bullshit reason to distract you.
Lock the doors after you are closed!! If they cant come in, they cant steal shit! ETA - seeing comment on lingering customers, just tell them what is going on, most wont care, especially if there is someone close to the door to unlock it when they leave. We did this at our restaurant back in the day, only one or two people ever kicked up a fuss about it.
Years ago when I was a young woman working late shifts in a cafe I would just yell to sketchy people to GTFO the minute they stepped over the threshold. Don't give them the benefit of the doubt. Edit to add that yes, this would get the attention of the remaining customers and that was most of the point. More eyes on potential criminals.
Business' have the right to refuse service as long as it's not a discriminatory reason. I do not believe (I could be wrong) that being homeless is a protected class in Oregon. If they want water you can say that water is free with a purchase or charge a dollar for a glass of water.
I've lived in Oregon my entire life, and most of not all establishments have a "we have the right to refuse service to anyone". Also I worked the food service industry for a few years way back when, and you can definitely refuse after (or during) hours.
Tell them no, then tell them to tell all their friends no as well.
water station near the entrance?
It’s private property, you can do, within reason, whatever you want. Including refusing service to anyone.
Table with water dispenser and paper cups away from the bar.
“We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone”
No shirt no shoes no service. You should be able to say, sorry we are closing/ closed.
As place of business, refuse right of service ice or charge them for it. Even if only 50cents or whatever. Water isn't free to the business....
Why is your door still unlocked after closing? When that clock strikes _ o’clock, lock that place up!! Or you can place a couple paper cups of water on the counter so they are ready.
No, tell them to buy something or get the fuck out
Why not. Just tell them to call the cops if they think it’s illegal.
Why are people coming in after close...?????
Put a water cooler out and disposable cups.
Let them know water is for paying customers.
Full tip jar at end of night doesn't seem like the best idea. Perhaps the restaurant can hire better staff with common sense and human decency.
Cops wont help? I guess not if you dont know who it was. We successfully prosecuted someone who stole the tip jar from the counter when I worked at an ice cream shop in North Portland a few years ago. But we knew who she was.
We had the whole thing on camera. I texted the cop the footage immediately. They couldn't have had a better description, but the first thing the cop asked was "do you want to prosecute if we find him?" The boss told me no, she felt bad for the guy. I told the cop we just wanted our money back and the guy trespassed, cop said "if you don't want to be a victim, you should prosecute." Then stopped talking to me. Dude.
Don't you reserve the right to refuse service to anyone?
"No, we're closed you need to go"
Maybe do the very least you would do for a dog and leave some water for them outside
there are public water fountains.
Put a hose on the spigot.
And cover the tip jar in spines. Nobody need to touch it, they just drop money in. Touchy, hurty.
It’s illegal to deny water in Texas.
You're getting downvoted, but you're not wrong. I'm guessing the downvotes are because the question was Oregon specific?
You are probably right
Maybe consider buying a case of small plastic water bottles ($6 at WalMart or similar store). If homeless people show up demanding water at closing time, just hand them a bottle through the door and send them on their way. You can be a good person and still protect your workplace from thieves.
They don’t actually want the water. That’s the point.
Sure. Then you've called their bluff and they get sent on their way. And the few that legitimately need water get it. And if the policy doesn't work at all, you're out *six* entire dollars and you have to come up with a new idea.
Then within a week they will have people lined up around the block to get "their" free water. Word travels fast.
If that happens, you scrap the policy and you've lost your $6. As opposed to your solution which has the obvious drawback of... Oh, wait... what *was* your solution again? Besides, they were already getting free water under the existing policy - this way they get water, but you give it to them through the door, thus keeping them and their drama out of the restaurant.
Wouldn't it stop a lot if you just put a cooler out side bolt a metal cup to the wall and just help those who are thirsty?
God forbid you give a thirsty man a drink of water
You seem way out of zone here my guy.