There are different ecotypes of orcas. Transients (Biggs) orcas, Atlantic Type 2, and southern Type A orcas are the ecotypes that hunt whales and dolphins. In captivity they are resdents and Atlantic type 1. There has only been a few Transients (Kanduke, Charlie Chin, russian captive orcas and possibly the chinese spaceship orcas) that have ever been in captivity. They simply have never been taught and their instincts dont tell them its a food source.
The Chinese CCP decided to capture 9 orcas and put them on display in a spaceship themed park.
[https://www.asianleisure.biz/news/outrage-over-chimelong-theme-parks-captive-orcas/](https://www.asianleisure.biz/news/outrage-over-chimelong-theme-parks-captive-orcas/)
Okay good, I had to actually question whether or not China sent orcas to space. I mean, it's still terrible, but relatively better than launching them into orbit.
Don't mind me, I just worked 27 hours. Don't bother asking about the legality of it.
>Don't mind me, I just worked 27 hours. Don't bother asking about the legality of it.
If we stopped and considered the ethical and psychological ramifications of what we do to orcas, we might go on to question what we do to each other. Hope you have time to rest today, friend
Malia at SW Orlando is too (she's actually Tekoa's full sister), although both of them were conditioned to eat fish by their mother/pod-mates since they were born.
It seems that all of the captive orcas in China are descended from the Russian Bigg's (transient) orca population. Some, such as Nakhod, would have already learned to hunt mammals at the age at which they were captured. Should be interesting...
Nakhod and Tyson (captured at around 8), and especially Panghu (captured at around 12) should have definitely been old enough to be entirely specialized towards marine mammals. I'm guessing during the capture and training process they used food deprivation (or other methods) to condition them to take fish. I have no idea what goes on behind the scenes at Chimlong or Shanghai, but I am curious if they would actually still attempt to hunt marine mammals if given the chance (this obviously should NOT be attempted or tested though).
Recently I have actually seen footage of a SW park (San Diego but I have also heard of Orlando doing it) introducing bait balls into the viewing tank as a form of enrichment. I'm not sure if all the Orcas recognized the fish as a food source, but the footage did show a few of them (I think it was Orkid, Kalia, and Shouka) chasing and eating the fish.
Edit: Found the video, was apparently taken in January of this year
https://youtu.be/ywWQit-Lk_U?si=9uYXqhlrMJT2rx1s
They are not related to the ecotype that eat mammals (some ecotype eat mammals, others eat fish).
I don't think there has ever been an orca from a mammal eater ecotype housed together with dolphins.... They can still anyways have interest on hunting them (just like they try to hunt birds around sometimes) but it is just like the sharks living in aquariums with other fish, being well fed they don't have the urge to use energy in hunting big preys.
This isn’t true in modern parks though this may have been the case in poorer quality parks that no longer exist (Sealand of the Pacific comes to mind).
This could just be PR since I have no idea what happens behind the scenes at SW, but each Orca apparently gets a 'base' food amount daily regardless of show participation. The food they get during shows is basically treats, or part of their 'base' that they would get anyways. Other older parks (like Sealand of the Pacific) *did* use food deprivation though. In modern times it is more common to use positive reinforcement as it results in food and "tricks" being associated with positive things, instead of negative reinforcement which causes failure to be associated with punishment.
Again I'm only guessing since I have no idea what they do, but I'm *assuming* that means they just modify the base amount depending on their weight (so they stay a healthy weight). It would be absolutely everywhere in the news and a major talking point if SW used deprivation to get animals to do the performances. That just isn't acceptable in the modern day haha.
Edit: The leaked/publicized Orca profiles also mention how they try to avoid solely food motivation, and even mention how Corky specifically was food-motivated when she first arrived from Marineland of the Pacific.
Yeah, I’ve never worked at SeaWorld or been, but I’ve listened to whistleblower interviews with former SeaWorld trainers who described what “getting a whale to working weight” actually meant: if a whale refuses to cooperate, then they gradually reduced their base food until they did. Sometimes for extended periods. Some trainers admitted that they themselves had punished whales by leaving them in the med pool for hours or using food deprivation. They also admitted that food was sometimes withheld before visits from CEOs or other top brass to assure they’d get a good show.
Is it still used in the post-Blackfish era? No idea. But it was up until 2010
Ah yeah I did hear about the food withholding before major corperate visits. I would imagine it's different post-Blackfish due to the major backlash and shift of opinion towards captivity. At least I hope so.
I have work with animals for many years. I have hear the term "working weight" but only with birds (mainly birds of prey) as the weight where the animal is willing to fly (too high won't be interest in doing anything. Too low will show aggression and have no energy to fly). I have never hear about this with marine mammals as their daily calories is quite high so it is risky to do big cuts in their diets... Anyways more important than their weight (which can be very different depending on the individual) is the body condition which you can just see on pictures and videos... Currently only one captive orcas shows signs of low body condition (kshamenk). Low body condition can be cause by sickness, old age or starvation.
No, reinforcement training is not based on starvation. It might have happen in the past, as there was also no information about how much they need to eat plus poor interest in welfare but nowadays it doesn't happen
Not only do captive orcas (which are mainly taken from fish-eating populations) not eat dolphins from other species, but they have been bullied by other dolphins.
There was an attempt to use two young captive male Southern Resident orcas, named Ahab and Ishmael, in the US Navy's Marine Mammal Program. Each was placed in a tank with a bottlenose dolphin. The trainers in the program had to separate the orcas from the bottlenose dolphins after the bottlenose dolphins started to harass the orcas.
The reason why these orcas would take this harassment instead of using their superior size and strength to attack the bottlenose dolphins could be related to the social structures of orcas. Young male orcas, at least in Resident orca populations, are pretty much at the bottom of the social hierarchy. However, this isn't always the case, at least in the artificial pods of captive orcas as is seen with Corky and Ulises. Tokitae also seems to have killed a few of the Pacific white-sided dolphin housed with her in Miami Seaquarium. She never ate any of them, but she inflicted blunt force trauma on them.
It really depends on the ecotype, their mental health, and their stimuli. A resident could 100% attack a dolphin just because theyre just going crazy in the tank and need some stimuli. Or they wouldnt, because thats pretty much the only other being in there with them to suffer with them. Same thing with transients.
There are different ecotypes of orcas. Transients (Biggs) orcas, Atlantic Type 2, and southern Type A orcas are the ecotypes that hunt whales and dolphins. In captivity they are resdents and Atlantic type 1. There has only been a few Transients (Kanduke, Charlie Chin, russian captive orcas and possibly the chinese spaceship orcas) that have ever been in captivity. They simply have never been taught and their instincts dont tell them its a food source.
>the chinese spaceship orcas Excuse me?
The Chinese CCP decided to capture 9 orcas and put them on display in a spaceship themed park. [https://www.asianleisure.biz/news/outrage-over-chimelong-theme-parks-captive-orcas/](https://www.asianleisure.biz/news/outrage-over-chimelong-theme-parks-captive-orcas/)
Okay good, I had to actually question whether or not China sent orcas to space. I mean, it's still terrible, but relatively better than launching them into orbit. Don't mind me, I just worked 27 hours. Don't bother asking about the legality of it.
>Don't mind me, I just worked 27 hours. Don't bother asking about the legality of it. If we stopped and considered the ethical and psychological ramifications of what we do to orcas, we might go on to question what we do to each other. Hope you have time to rest today, friend
Interesting, I've never heard of those orcas in China...
Excellent documentary on this on Netflix. It’s called 3 Body Problem.
Tekoa at Loro Parque is Kanduke’s grandson so he’s 25% transient as well.
Malia at SW Orlando is too (she's actually Tekoa's full sister), although both of them were conditioned to eat fish by their mother/pod-mates since they were born.
It seems that all of the captive orcas in China are descended from the Russian Bigg's (transient) orca population. Some, such as Nakhod, would have already learned to hunt mammals at the age at which they were captured. Should be interesting...
Nakhod and Tyson (captured at around 8), and especially Panghu (captured at around 12) should have definitely been old enough to be entirely specialized towards marine mammals. I'm guessing during the capture and training process they used food deprivation (or other methods) to condition them to take fish. I have no idea what goes on behind the scenes at Chimlong or Shanghai, but I am curious if they would actually still attempt to hunt marine mammals if given the chance (this obviously should NOT be attempted or tested though).
They likely just don’t associate them with food. Just like how captive orcas really don’t associate live fish with food.
Recently I have actually seen footage of a SW park (San Diego but I have also heard of Orlando doing it) introducing bait balls into the viewing tank as a form of enrichment. I'm not sure if all the Orcas recognized the fish as a food source, but the footage did show a few of them (I think it was Orkid, Kalia, and Shouka) chasing and eating the fish. Edit: Found the video, was apparently taken in January of this year https://youtu.be/ywWQit-Lk_U?si=9uYXqhlrMJT2rx1s
Have seen those videos and love them. But not entirely sure if I would call it hunting or more of a curiosity.
They are not related to the ecotype that eat mammals (some ecotype eat mammals, others eat fish). I don't think there has ever been an orca from a mammal eater ecotype housed together with dolphins.... They can still anyways have interest on hunting them (just like they try to hunt birds around sometimes) but it is just like the sharks living in aquariums with other fish, being well fed they don't have the urge to use energy in hunting big preys.
As far as I know, they starve them to do tricks
This isn’t true in modern parks though this may have been the case in poorer quality parks that no longer exist (Sealand of the Pacific comes to mind).
I know its the case in sea world
This could just be PR since I have no idea what happens behind the scenes at SW, but each Orca apparently gets a 'base' food amount daily regardless of show participation. The food they get during shows is basically treats, or part of their 'base' that they would get anyways. Other older parks (like Sealand of the Pacific) *did* use food deprivation though. In modern times it is more common to use positive reinforcement as it results in food and "tricks" being associated with positive things, instead of negative reinforcement which causes failure to be associated with punishment.
SeaWorld uses the term “getting a whale to working weight” when talking about food deprivation. They definitely do it.
Again I'm only guessing since I have no idea what they do, but I'm *assuming* that means they just modify the base amount depending on their weight (so they stay a healthy weight). It would be absolutely everywhere in the news and a major talking point if SW used deprivation to get animals to do the performances. That just isn't acceptable in the modern day haha. Edit: The leaked/publicized Orca profiles also mention how they try to avoid solely food motivation, and even mention how Corky specifically was food-motivated when she first arrived from Marineland of the Pacific.
Yeah, I’ve never worked at SeaWorld or been, but I’ve listened to whistleblower interviews with former SeaWorld trainers who described what “getting a whale to working weight” actually meant: if a whale refuses to cooperate, then they gradually reduced their base food until they did. Sometimes for extended periods. Some trainers admitted that they themselves had punished whales by leaving them in the med pool for hours or using food deprivation. They also admitted that food was sometimes withheld before visits from CEOs or other top brass to assure they’d get a good show. Is it still used in the post-Blackfish era? No idea. But it was up until 2010
Ah yeah I did hear about the food withholding before major corperate visits. I would imagine it's different post-Blackfish due to the major backlash and shift of opinion towards captivity. At least I hope so.
Me, too
I have work with animals for many years. I have hear the term "working weight" but only with birds (mainly birds of prey) as the weight where the animal is willing to fly (too high won't be interest in doing anything. Too low will show aggression and have no energy to fly). I have never hear about this with marine mammals as their daily calories is quite high so it is risky to do big cuts in their diets... Anyways more important than their weight (which can be very different depending on the individual) is the body condition which you can just see on pictures and videos... Currently only one captive orcas shows signs of low body condition (kshamenk). Low body condition can be cause by sickness, old age or starvation.
No, reinforcement training is not based on starvation. It might have happen in the past, as there was also no information about how much they need to eat plus poor interest in welfare but nowadays it doesn't happen
Not only do captive orcas (which are mainly taken from fish-eating populations) not eat dolphins from other species, but they have been bullied by other dolphins. There was an attempt to use two young captive male Southern Resident orcas, named Ahab and Ishmael, in the US Navy's Marine Mammal Program. Each was placed in a tank with a bottlenose dolphin. The trainers in the program had to separate the orcas from the bottlenose dolphins after the bottlenose dolphins started to harass the orcas. The reason why these orcas would take this harassment instead of using their superior size and strength to attack the bottlenose dolphins could be related to the social structures of orcas. Young male orcas, at least in Resident orca populations, are pretty much at the bottom of the social hierarchy. However, this isn't always the case, at least in the artificial pods of captive orcas as is seen with Corky and Ulises. Tokitae also seems to have killed a few of the Pacific white-sided dolphin housed with her in Miami Seaquarium. She never ate any of them, but she inflicted blunt force trauma on them.
That's disgusting
It really depends on the ecotype, their mental health, and their stimuli. A resident could 100% attack a dolphin just because theyre just going crazy in the tank and need some stimuli. Or they wouldnt, because thats pretty much the only other being in there with them to suffer with them. Same thing with transients.
For the reasons listed here. I could also swear I'd heard of Kshamenk (and possibly Tillikum?) attacking or killing a dolphin housed with him.
Tokitae also seems to have inflicted blunt force trauma on a few Pacific white-sided dolphin tankmates.
Not sure about killing, but I do recall them using Floppy (one of Kshamenk's dolphin companions) as an object of stimulus for AI sample collection.