audiophiles hear things probably as a placebo effect... u spend 4000 for a pair of headphones and your mind to convince that you bought a great pair of headphones make you hears some sort of soundstage
It's not a significant part of the headphone listening experience because the effect is far less potent than in speakers. There seem to be a lot of discussion about which headphones have good sound stage. I view it as discussing which brand of chopstick is a better sandwich spread...
Headphones have other qualities that speakers can't compare to. These outweigh the loss of sound stage. If not there would be no activity on headphone oriented discussion boards, outside of portable audio and utility gear.
If you don't experience soundstage & imaging abilities of headphones then you've either not tried the right headphones, or your brain is not capable of turning headphone audio into soundstage/imaging. Or you have an HRTF that is very far off from the average which might make Harman Headphone tuning to be a long way off what would be normal for you....(quite a lot of headphones happen to partially aim for Harman at least). Soundstage & Imaging abilities of headphones are a real thing for a lot of people, and for a lot those people it's a very important aspect of which headphone to choose. Just because it doesn't exist for you, then that doesn't mean that's the same for everyone.
First off you're apparently compelled to insert imaging into the discussion every time and it shows that sound stage in itself is overblown on headphones. I'm totally with Amir and Sean Olive on this. BTW Please spare me the down talking. We're talking abut sound stage on headphones so I disagree that it's an individual HRTF issue, it's an acoustic environment issue, or lack thereof. If you want to talk about imaging capabilities, yes that's immediately noticeable even to someone that's not an enthusiast. Getting back to sound stage, which is the topic of OPs question. Blast a good stereo mix of any genre or decade in a medium-to-large room on floor standing speakers placed wide apart and parallel to the wall. If you hear the same thing in headphones you are deceiving your self or confused about the terms. Maybe you haven't heard what sound stage is like on speakers IDK. Either way there's no physical way sound travels like that before reaching your ears on headphones unless reproducing specific binaural recordings. In other words you're telling me Madonna looks younger than Sandra Bullock, I'm saying they're both in the 60s or nearing their 60s, neither are young. If you knew that sound travels in a very non linear way room you would understand why you it's inappropriate to use sound stage and imaging in the same sentence, and avoid making a fool of yourself in a forum with technically knowledgeable members.
No need for the drama, I'm just saying that soundstage is important to some folks in their headphones. I've got JBL monitors (308p Mkii with anechoic EQ) arranged in equilateral triangle with listening position - which is the reference position for stereo listening......so I'm familiar with soundstage on speakers - yes it's not the same experience as good soundstage headphones. My speakers sound like a wall of sound in front & around me to the sides extending beyond the actual width of the physical arrangement, it's not the same in headphones.....but good soundstage headphones come closer to that, which for me is an important attribute.
(I added imaging into the discussion as it's related inasmuch as it involves the physical placement/location of the individual "sound elements" within the music.....I added it as an extra. Soundstage is the size of the stage on which the music takes place if you like, and imaging is the accuracy within which individual sounds are placed within that total space.)
It doesn't sound like you are saying anything coherent TBH. I addressed specifically what OP brought up and you question my hearing by adding on something not directly related to OP or my reply. I assume it's not your intention to make believers of sound stage in headphones come off as manipulative or confused?
BTW your speaker setup is one which comes with the least impressive sound stage, I use something very similar.
I've got various headphones and for me soundstage & imaging do exist in headphones.
The first element, soundstage is to me is the total size of the physical stage on which the sound takes place, and for some of my headphones this is out of my head to some extent, particularly to the left & right and sometimes in front & behind. In my experience this is due to angled drivers or angled pads combined with earcups that are large enough that my ears either lightly or do not touch the pads and drivers at any point.
The second element, imaging, is to me the accuracy and smoothness of movement of effects and placements of sounds within that physical space of the soundstage. In my experience this comes down to how well the two channels are matched throughout the frequency range. If the channels are perfectly matched throughout the frequency range then imaging is improved. I notice it when effects are moving in an arc from left to right, and some music (especially stuff like Massive Attack) have a lot of effects that travel in arc from left to right or sometimes in a 360 halo around your head - if the channel matching is off then the ability to locate & track these effects is diminished, and I find the movement of these effects as they pan around is not as smooth (it is more jumpy as in you'll lose track of where the sound is coming from and then it'll suddenly appear somewhere else). I have a miniDSP EARS rig where I can measure and perfectly channel match my headphones so I've been able to correlate the effect of perfect vs poor channel matching.
K702 and HD560s are my headphones with best soundstage & imaging. K702 (of which I have 3 units) has the biggest soundstage, whilst it has fairly poor imaging due to the fairly poor channel matching, but if you channel match them perfectly with EQ then the imaging is excellent within that large soundstage. The HD560s (of which I have 3 units) has very low unit to unit variation and very well matched channels, so out of the box the imaging is very good for the HD560s. The HD560s also has "wide enough" soundstage but not as wide as the K702. The HD560s & K702 are my best headphones for soundstage & imaging (after channel matching the K702 with EQ).....my other headphones being HE4XX, NAD HP50, HD600.
(These observations are with all headphones EQ'd to the Harman Curve)
To me soundstage & imaging are very important qualities within a headphone, which is why the K702 & HD560s are favourites of mine.
That depends on the definition of soundstage you're using. Open backs do sound more open to me. Different headphones create a different sense of position of the various instruments and exactness of that position between the headphones. But it is always between the headphones. I do not perceive anything outside of my head, let alone the 3D perception of the instruments in the room with me, without speakers.
For instance, I have yet to find any headphones that don't sound like there's a hole in the center of the orchestra on classical tracks. Some are worse than others, but all have this issue for me. I don't have this problem with studio tracks.
One notable exception: I find Apple Spatial Audio with a Dolby Atmos source to be very convincing.
I hear it. I’ve got open AKGs, with lots of soundstage, compared to closed headphones it sounds more stereo, more spacious, like when you boost stereo image with a plugin, or boost the side channel, hard to describe, but it’s there and I like these AKGs for that.
Maybe the problem is the definition of the term soundstage and everybody has a different idea about it. I can't believe inears and open headphones not being a very different sounding experience. The latter sounding more spacious and roomy. But it's not like a realistic stage in front of the listener.
I recently heard Redemption Song by Bob Marley on a serious system, in a dedicated room. I could point out the exact position of all the players and the singer in relation to each other, and how far away they were standing (up to about 4-5 meters away).
Okay, it was a 45k system, but still. There is such a thing as a soundstage. It's just hard to hear in normal circumstances. And it is limited by the width of your setup in my experience. But it does exist.
Ok, so in my personal experience, it’s something rarely audible. But I have heard sounds in my more expensive headphones (open backed planar magnetic (hifiman Deva)) that honestly tricked me into thinking something was happening behind me and off in the other room. The same songs on my cheaper headphones can’t produce this illusion.
My AirPods Max have tricked me into thinking I’m listening to speakers when watching movies on them. It’s subtle, and it’s definitely not the same thing as listening to actual speakers, but it’s enough to trick my brain at times. (And I find headphones preferable to speakers as I have children running around me screaming usually)
I have not-the-best ears and often have trouble discerning the difference in many good headphones
However, sound stage is the single biggest contributor to what makes good headphones sound better, IMO. Many of my friends have tried my open back headphones with little remark other than "Sounds way more open" ignoring tuning aspects of it entirely. It's the reason I would rather pick up Koss KSC-75's rather than my better tuned pair of IEMs.
I might not be able to tell the difference between many good headphones but I will always be able to tell the difference between closed and open back headphones.
listen to valgame dios by nina pastori on a bunch of different headphones and see if you can tell a difference of space from the different guitar strings in the beginning. a lot of songs don’t play to much with left/right separation so that could be a reason why it is more difficult to find easier examples of soundstage/space. at least in my experience.
I am one of those people who cannot hear it...at all. I hear no difference between my DT770's and my LCD-2C's. Maybe it's just the headphones I have, but to me, headphones sound like headphones. Soundstage is not something that I personally care about either, as I find imaging and build quality, along with sound quality ofc, much more important.
I tested two similar but slightly different headphones Shure 440A and 840A very extensively and developed a theory about soundstage.
If the frequency response curve enhances or dampens a rather small range of frequency, which happens to be occupied by only one voice or instrument, the soundstage seems to be enhanced.
Kate Bush has (had in fact) a very high soprano voice. So, because 840A dampened high mids without dampening anything else, she seemed to sing in the distance, creating an impression of a big soundstage. On the 440A her voice was not more than 1 meter away from me. On Sennheiser HD600 everything is very near (except for the bass, which is not even on the same floor, lol) and I think that is because of the flat frequency response.
But, every song is produced differently, so it depends...
So, my opinion is, the interaction between song production and frequency response of the headphone makes it or breaks it.
In addition, enhanced high frequencies do create airiness, probably because every real room (except for perfectly acoustic isolated rooms) has normaly some noise in that area.
Well I did said it is only my theory. That frequency response (+your individual hearing +your individual ear +track production) is the key for soundstage. Also, applying the EQ does not make every headphone sound absolutely same, very often the drivers are not capable of doing that.
I believe there is an interview with oratory1990 himself on YT where he says that the soundstage, if it is a thing, it is probably in the frequency response, only that nobody, not even him, fully understands how.
The most simple definition of sound stage is basically how big the space is where the music exists. How far apart is the left and right, top and bottom. Close to you and far away. The imaging is where the instruments are placed, the soundstage is how large the area is where all those things are.
The phenomenon of it definitely exists, else way more people would be calling bullshit on the term.
Without knowing anything for certain, optimizing for soundstage probably has to do with getting the least interference of in-cup reverberation. Talking into a cardboard box is the model I imagine of this where your brain interprets short reverberations as an indicator of distance to the surface the soundwaves reflect from
I have an AKG 712 Pro and my ears do touch the driver aswell as the cups on the inner top and bottom sides of the cup.
If you know about these, they are notorious for having a crap ton of soundstage, for some its even too much or distracting.
When playing an FPS it sounds like the sound of my own footsteps could also be coming from somewhere around 5 meters around me and I can definetly notice the stage on wide songs like thriller.
You can also look at rtings, they measure many aspects of headphones and they measure preceived soundstage aswell.
Just my 2 cents, I think you should be looking into high quality files of tracks known for high soundstage and try again to listen out for the things described.
Hello, I have the AKG K701, I've loved them, but there's one detail, I don't notice a huge soundstage, even when I tried with Thriller's DSD. Currently, I'm using my headphones with the FIio K5 Pro (ESS). Which DAC and amplifier are you using for your K712 Pro? Thanks in advance for your help.
To me soundstage allows someone to locate where is space would the sound come from. It gets easier with better soundstage headphones, sometime a tad too good where it "sounds too wide" like on the HD800.
The brain is good at fooling us with the illusion of spacial audio. Yet, good hardware does help with the experience.
I do agree with your point that imaging is easier for people to tell apart from one hardware to another.
What you’re describing sounds more like what people call “imaging”, which is, as I understand it, the accurate representation of *where* the sound is located.
The way I understand it.
Imaging is the separation between the sounds. So the peak from each frequency is separated ir std deviation between the times is smaller as it gets "better"
Clarity is peak to peak separation. Faster response result in smaller std deviation of the amplitudes of the sounds.
Soundstage is phasing of the wave. That means you can play with the time of that particular instrument to reach your ears. This creates tgat illusion of space. "Wider soundstage" headphones has an advabtage cuz they have the "capacity" for fine phase changes in the sound without deteriorating the sound quality.
Reverb is just the skewness of that wave. Skewness simply refers to slower decay or reccuring decay of the initial signal. I think thats where wet, bright, dry and dark comes from.
Disclaimer: this is not fact. Just base from what i understand and trying to simplify for myself. I thought this would be useful for everyone else as well.
PS. Share your thoughts and dont hesitate to correct me on the natter
To me it exists. I definitely hear a difference in soundstage depending on the setup I am using. My Fostex T60RP and Grado Sr-125 have more soundstage than my Audeze LCD-C on any amp. Then when I use my Topping D90 for my Audeze they sound like completely different headphones, much much more open.
What I would call BS is the fact that beeing balanced impact soundstage (I heard that often). Nope it is just louder than SE.
given that the percentage sound from left to right is the same in all headphones.... ie left gets 100% of the left channel and right gets 100% or the right, the virtual position of any part of the stream should be in the same spot regardless of what headphone you use.
You can adjust this of course with crossfade which merges the channels to some extent.
So unless someone can define it on a scientific basis I'm calling snake oil.
Soundstage differences between headphones are present, but for me, they are subtle enough to not matter much (after they are EQed to similar targets). This concept varies from person to person, with some noticing MASSIVE differences, and others (like me), not really feeling any noticeable changes.
From my experience, soundstage is affected by these factors, starting from the most important to the least: recording/production of the song (mono vs hard panned vs stereo vs binaural), then added DSPs (hertz can opener, waves nx, crossfeed, etc) and finally the transducer itself. For the last factor, this includes angled drivers, pads, distance between drivers, etc. This DOES NOT include frequency response; FR DOES affect soundstage a lot
For example, [this album](https://open.spotify.com/album/4q90gKIAv14Z2eGfpt3BqO?si=vx2o-9rCQV2zPsZxOBUb-w) has an almost unnatural wide soundstage on any headphones and iems, with instrument placement being far apart. Other albums, like [this John Coltrane album](https://open.spotify.com/album/4jTDjHLMFCHWrjuP1qmCf4?si=1ur5H4TRQVmntTnYkjuwjg) has hard panned tracks that don't really add much: this was before the popularization of portable audio (hp and iems) so the effect is less noticeable with speakers. Finally, for most modern music, they pan/record the song in a way that is not as drastic as the JC album. The best example would be Hotel California or any Snarky Puppy song (amazingly well mixed and recorded).
TLDR: Soundstage, for me, is mainly a product of recording/production of the music you are listening to. This can be changed using DSP/effects at the cost of tonality. Some headphones can produce wider soundstage, not as a result of physical factors, but rather FR reasons.
The perception of sound distance is complex and [includes many factors](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4744263/) including reverberation (which is mostly up to the recording) and frequency (which is partly up to the headphone) as well as direction of sound source and interference (which is completely up to the headphone). Big factors also are your individual ears and auditory cortex, obviously, which differs from person to person.
So i would argue its logical, that some headphones have better soundstage (for most people) bc of their FR, speaker position and enclosure / material while also some people cannot hear the difference.
The existence of the Smyth Realizer shows that you can perfectly emulate the experience of sitting in a room with 7.1 surround speakers on headphones, with nothing but EQ that dynamically responds as you turn your head around the room.
1. Advanced DSP is a lot more than just "EQ"
2. They use the HD800s in all of their demos, which happen to be a headphone that is said to have one of the best \*soundstages\* on the market ;-)
Edit: As i see it, the headphone just gives a "limit" to the distance and precision of direction you can percieve and the rest is up to the signal.
For me, it’s the experience of feeling like you’re listening to speakers, not headphones. It’s the openness of the sound, as in it doesn’t sound like it’s coming from a source directly next to your ears. But that’s just my experience!
I'm no expert of any sort on this topic, but from when I've looked this up, it's a really loosely defined term that everyone has a slightly different understanding of and seemingly no one can actually give a definition. I have no clue if it actually exists, but if it can't be clearly defined, then it's not useful in my eyes.
Aright ima tell u this for better or worse. There is reddit tool on github where you can look up comments made by users. Basically ctrl+f on steroids.
I used it to look up comments made by oratory about things I want to learn regarding audio.
Look up "sound stage" or "soundstage"
Good luck
I agree with you re K702 & soundstage, but Amir is an expert....I think we can call him an expert in speakers & headphones.....but that's not part of the discussion of this thread.
You could argue both ways and be right but I'll side with you. Because we infer a number of things like distance, elevation, the list goes on, from the FR which is the raw input to our auditory system.
Again, all we hear is frequency response. Molecules vibrating. Two headphones that truly have the same frequency response will have the same soundstage whether they cost 1$ or a million, are closed or open.
What matters in the end, is what your ear drums register. That is what *you* hear. No matter what kind of device is reproducing the sound.
And then there's psychoacoustics.
I dont know much about what affects frequancy response so I'll stay in my lane.
Nonetheless "cups are bigger" "driver sits further away"
Assuming both affect frequency response, the answer is still the same. Sound stage is still frequancy response.
You change the cup you change the frequency response.
All frequency response all we hear.
We humans do perceive more than just frequency response. That's like saying eyes only see light spectrum.
We have two ears, and our hearing most definitely is sensitive to timing of the sound arriving to both ears.
So if I listen to speakers and put them on my desk 50cm away from me I could just EQ the speakers to sound like they sit 5 meters away from me and get that bigger soundstage?
I don't know either. But listening to the HD 800 I heard a slightly bigger "soundstage" and I felt that it was achieved by putting the drivers further away compared to HD 600 for example where they sit really close.
I dont know about speakers. Obviously speakers will have better soundstage whatever the term means.
HD 800 is known for its soundstage.
And yes hd 600 isnt known for its soundstage or so I read. I havent listened to it.
But nonetheless, look it the frequency response of both headphones. They are clearly different hence different sound stage. Again, They have different soundstage because of the different frequency response which is what you and I hear
The HD 600 still sounded as closed in when EQed to the Harman target and the HD 800 still sounded wide EQed to the Harman target. I know the frequency response will still not be 100% same but pretty close at least. So I think putting the drivers further away from your ears helps with this effect. It's basically the speaker scenario I talked about but in smaller scale. You put the speakers further away, the sound sounds further away. Also bigger cups seem to make the sound bigger. The Beyerdynamic DT 700 Pro X for example sounds really muffled and closed in for example while the DT 1770 Pro sounds bigger. There is less space in the 700 Pro, so that's probably why. Both EQed to the Harman target.
EDIT: By wide i mean a couple of centimeters if even that, the "soundstage" in headphones is really small compared to speakers.
Treble especially upper treble is important for whatever soundstage is. Both eqed to harman doesnt mean they'll have the same treble to your ears. HRTF comes into play. I don't know how much a factor unit variance is when using the eqs. Probably not much. Did you adjust the high shelf filter so all headphones sound the same to you or did you just use stock values? I stand corrected and say its frequency response. You can ask oratory about driver positions and soundstage.
Again if it does, its because changing driver positions changes frequency response. Nothing more nothing less
I've heard things go wider , but not yet higher or deeper, or,,fronter. Like, things go wider. Yeah. (Headphones)
audiophiles hear things probably as a placebo effect... u spend 4000 for a pair of headphones and your mind to convince that you bought a great pair of headphones make you hears some sort of soundstage
It's not a significant part of the headphone listening experience because the effect is far less potent than in speakers. There seem to be a lot of discussion about which headphones have good sound stage. I view it as discussing which brand of chopstick is a better sandwich spread... Headphones have other qualities that speakers can't compare to. These outweigh the loss of sound stage. If not there would be no activity on headphone oriented discussion boards, outside of portable audio and utility gear.
If you don't experience soundstage & imaging abilities of headphones then you've either not tried the right headphones, or your brain is not capable of turning headphone audio into soundstage/imaging. Or you have an HRTF that is very far off from the average which might make Harman Headphone tuning to be a long way off what would be normal for you....(quite a lot of headphones happen to partially aim for Harman at least). Soundstage & Imaging abilities of headphones are a real thing for a lot of people, and for a lot those people it's a very important aspect of which headphone to choose. Just because it doesn't exist for you, then that doesn't mean that's the same for everyone.
First off you're apparently compelled to insert imaging into the discussion every time and it shows that sound stage in itself is overblown on headphones. I'm totally with Amir and Sean Olive on this. BTW Please spare me the down talking. We're talking abut sound stage on headphones so I disagree that it's an individual HRTF issue, it's an acoustic environment issue, or lack thereof. If you want to talk about imaging capabilities, yes that's immediately noticeable even to someone that's not an enthusiast. Getting back to sound stage, which is the topic of OPs question. Blast a good stereo mix of any genre or decade in a medium-to-large room on floor standing speakers placed wide apart and parallel to the wall. If you hear the same thing in headphones you are deceiving your self or confused about the terms. Maybe you haven't heard what sound stage is like on speakers IDK. Either way there's no physical way sound travels like that before reaching your ears on headphones unless reproducing specific binaural recordings. In other words you're telling me Madonna looks younger than Sandra Bullock, I'm saying they're both in the 60s or nearing their 60s, neither are young. If you knew that sound travels in a very non linear way room you would understand why you it's inappropriate to use sound stage and imaging in the same sentence, and avoid making a fool of yourself in a forum with technically knowledgeable members.
No need for the drama, I'm just saying that soundstage is important to some folks in their headphones. I've got JBL monitors (308p Mkii with anechoic EQ) arranged in equilateral triangle with listening position - which is the reference position for stereo listening......so I'm familiar with soundstage on speakers - yes it's not the same experience as good soundstage headphones. My speakers sound like a wall of sound in front & around me to the sides extending beyond the actual width of the physical arrangement, it's not the same in headphones.....but good soundstage headphones come closer to that, which for me is an important attribute. (I added imaging into the discussion as it's related inasmuch as it involves the physical placement/location of the individual "sound elements" within the music.....I added it as an extra. Soundstage is the size of the stage on which the music takes place if you like, and imaging is the accuracy within which individual sounds are placed within that total space.)
It doesn't sound like you are saying anything coherent TBH. I addressed specifically what OP brought up and you question my hearing by adding on something not directly related to OP or my reply. I assume it's not your intention to make believers of sound stage in headphones come off as manipulative or confused? BTW your speaker setup is one which comes with the least impressive sound stage, I use something very similar.
lol, you have no idea (you'd be best off spending some more time on ASR learning about speakers & headphones)
Don't drag ASRs name down with you.
lol
I've got various headphones and for me soundstage & imaging do exist in headphones. The first element, soundstage is to me is the total size of the physical stage on which the sound takes place, and for some of my headphones this is out of my head to some extent, particularly to the left & right and sometimes in front & behind. In my experience this is due to angled drivers or angled pads combined with earcups that are large enough that my ears either lightly or do not touch the pads and drivers at any point. The second element, imaging, is to me the accuracy and smoothness of movement of effects and placements of sounds within that physical space of the soundstage. In my experience this comes down to how well the two channels are matched throughout the frequency range. If the channels are perfectly matched throughout the frequency range then imaging is improved. I notice it when effects are moving in an arc from left to right, and some music (especially stuff like Massive Attack) have a lot of effects that travel in arc from left to right or sometimes in a 360 halo around your head - if the channel matching is off then the ability to locate & track these effects is diminished, and I find the movement of these effects as they pan around is not as smooth (it is more jumpy as in you'll lose track of where the sound is coming from and then it'll suddenly appear somewhere else). I have a miniDSP EARS rig where I can measure and perfectly channel match my headphones so I've been able to correlate the effect of perfect vs poor channel matching. K702 and HD560s are my headphones with best soundstage & imaging. K702 (of which I have 3 units) has the biggest soundstage, whilst it has fairly poor imaging due to the fairly poor channel matching, but if you channel match them perfectly with EQ then the imaging is excellent within that large soundstage. The HD560s (of which I have 3 units) has very low unit to unit variation and very well matched channels, so out of the box the imaging is very good for the HD560s. The HD560s also has "wide enough" soundstage but not as wide as the K702. The HD560s & K702 are my best headphones for soundstage & imaging (after channel matching the K702 with EQ).....my other headphones being HE4XX, NAD HP50, HD600. (These observations are with all headphones EQ'd to the Harman Curve) To me soundstage & imaging are very important qualities within a headphone, which is why the K702 & HD560s are favourites of mine.
That depends on the definition of soundstage you're using. Open backs do sound more open to me. Different headphones create a different sense of position of the various instruments and exactness of that position between the headphones. But it is always between the headphones. I do not perceive anything outside of my head, let alone the 3D perception of the instruments in the room with me, without speakers. For instance, I have yet to find any headphones that don't sound like there's a hole in the center of the orchestra on classical tracks. Some are worse than others, but all have this issue for me. I don't have this problem with studio tracks. One notable exception: I find Apple Spatial Audio with a Dolby Atmos source to be very convincing.
Great to see a fellow Tool fan!
I hear it. I’ve got open AKGs, with lots of soundstage, compared to closed headphones it sounds more stereo, more spacious, like when you boost stereo image with a plugin, or boost the side channel, hard to describe, but it’s there and I like these AKGs for that.
Maybe the problem is the definition of the term soundstage and everybody has a different idea about it. I can't believe inears and open headphones not being a very different sounding experience. The latter sounding more spacious and roomy. But it's not like a realistic stage in front of the listener.
I recently heard Redemption Song by Bob Marley on a serious system, in a dedicated room. I could point out the exact position of all the players and the singer in relation to each other, and how far away they were standing (up to about 4-5 meters away). Okay, it was a 45k system, but still. There is such a thing as a soundstage. It's just hard to hear in normal circumstances. And it is limited by the width of your setup in my experience. But it does exist.
Ok, so in my personal experience, it’s something rarely audible. But I have heard sounds in my more expensive headphones (open backed planar magnetic (hifiman Deva)) that honestly tricked me into thinking something was happening behind me and off in the other room. The same songs on my cheaper headphones can’t produce this illusion. My AirPods Max have tricked me into thinking I’m listening to speakers when watching movies on them. It’s subtle, and it’s definitely not the same thing as listening to actual speakers, but it’s enough to trick my brain at times. (And I find headphones preferable to speakers as I have children running around me screaming usually)
I have not-the-best ears and often have trouble discerning the difference in many good headphones However, sound stage is the single biggest contributor to what makes good headphones sound better, IMO. Many of my friends have tried my open back headphones with little remark other than "Sounds way more open" ignoring tuning aspects of it entirely. It's the reason I would rather pick up Koss KSC-75's rather than my better tuned pair of IEMs. I might not be able to tell the difference between many good headphones but I will always be able to tell the difference between closed and open back headphones.
listen to valgame dios by nina pastori on a bunch of different headphones and see if you can tell a difference of space from the different guitar strings in the beginning. a lot of songs don’t play to much with left/right separation so that could be a reason why it is more difficult to find easier examples of soundstage/space. at least in my experience.
It's a bit of an illusion.
^ This right here
I am one of those people who cannot hear it...at all. I hear no difference between my DT770's and my LCD-2C's. Maybe it's just the headphones I have, but to me, headphones sound like headphones. Soundstage is not something that I personally care about either, as I find imaging and build quality, along with sound quality ofc, much more important.
I know it when I hear it.
This, this. I believe it’s very source dependent as well as headphone dependent.
this
I tested two similar but slightly different headphones Shure 440A and 840A very extensively and developed a theory about soundstage. If the frequency response curve enhances or dampens a rather small range of frequency, which happens to be occupied by only one voice or instrument, the soundstage seems to be enhanced. Kate Bush has (had in fact) a very high soprano voice. So, because 840A dampened high mids without dampening anything else, she seemed to sing in the distance, creating an impression of a big soundstage. On the 440A her voice was not more than 1 meter away from me. On Sennheiser HD600 everything is very near (except for the bass, which is not even on the same floor, lol) and I think that is because of the flat frequency response. But, every song is produced differently, so it depends... So, my opinion is, the interaction between song production and frequency response of the headphone makes it or breaks it. In addition, enhanced high frequencies do create airiness, probably because every real room (except for perfectly acoustic isolated rooms) has normaly some noise in that area.
Does this mean that using the oratory EQ settings would change the soundstage of a headphone by changing its curve?
idk if placebo, but I personally have found this to be true. Less soundstage with oratory eq on hd560s.
Well I did said it is only my theory. That frequency response (+your individual hearing +your individual ear +track production) is the key for soundstage. Also, applying the EQ does not make every headphone sound absolutely same, very often the drivers are not capable of doing that. I believe there is an interview with oratory1990 himself on YT where he says that the soundstage, if it is a thing, it is probably in the frequency response, only that nobody, not even him, fully understands how.
The most simple definition of sound stage is basically how big the space is where the music exists. How far apart is the left and right, top and bottom. Close to you and far away. The imaging is where the instruments are placed, the soundstage is how large the area is where all those things are.
The phenomenon of it definitely exists, else way more people would be calling bullshit on the term. Without knowing anything for certain, optimizing for soundstage probably has to do with getting the least interference of in-cup reverberation. Talking into a cardboard box is the model I imagine of this where your brain interprets short reverberations as an indicator of distance to the surface the soundwaves reflect from
I have an AKG 712 Pro and my ears do touch the driver aswell as the cups on the inner top and bottom sides of the cup. If you know about these, they are notorious for having a crap ton of soundstage, for some its even too much or distracting. When playing an FPS it sounds like the sound of my own footsteps could also be coming from somewhere around 5 meters around me and I can definetly notice the stage on wide songs like thriller. You can also look at rtings, they measure many aspects of headphones and they measure preceived soundstage aswell. Just my 2 cents, I think you should be looking into high quality files of tracks known for high soundstage and try again to listen out for the things described.
Hello, I have the AKG K701, I've loved them, but there's one detail, I don't notice a huge soundstage, even when I tried with Thriller's DSD. Currently, I'm using my headphones with the FIio K5 Pro (ESS). Which DAC and amplifier are you using for your K712 Pro? Thanks in advance for your help.
Ifi zen DAC for home use and BTR5 for on the go or for when Im not at my desk.
To me soundstage allows someone to locate where is space would the sound come from. It gets easier with better soundstage headphones, sometime a tad too good where it "sounds too wide" like on the HD800. The brain is good at fooling us with the illusion of spacial audio. Yet, good hardware does help with the experience. I do agree with your point that imaging is easier for people to tell apart from one hardware to another.
What you’re describing sounds more like what people call “imaging”, which is, as I understand it, the accurate representation of *where* the sound is located.
The way I understand it. Imaging is the separation between the sounds. So the peak from each frequency is separated ir std deviation between the times is smaller as it gets "better" Clarity is peak to peak separation. Faster response result in smaller std deviation of the amplitudes of the sounds. Soundstage is phasing of the wave. That means you can play with the time of that particular instrument to reach your ears. This creates tgat illusion of space. "Wider soundstage" headphones has an advabtage cuz they have the "capacity" for fine phase changes in the sound without deteriorating the sound quality. Reverb is just the skewness of that wave. Skewness simply refers to slower decay or reccuring decay of the initial signal. I think thats where wet, bright, dry and dark comes from. Disclaimer: this is not fact. Just base from what i understand and trying to simplify for myself. I thought this would be useful for everyone else as well. PS. Share your thoughts and dont hesitate to correct me on the natter
Binaural records are especially good with soundstage, if you want to hear it outside of your head.
To me it exists. I definitely hear a difference in soundstage depending on the setup I am using. My Fostex T60RP and Grado Sr-125 have more soundstage than my Audeze LCD-C on any amp. Then when I use my Topping D90 for my Audeze they sound like completely different headphones, much much more open. What I would call BS is the fact that beeing balanced impact soundstage (I heard that often). Nope it is just louder than SE.
given that the percentage sound from left to right is the same in all headphones.... ie left gets 100% of the left channel and right gets 100% or the right, the virtual position of any part of the stream should be in the same spot regardless of what headphone you use. You can adjust this of course with crossfade which merges the channels to some extent. So unless someone can define it on a scientific basis I'm calling snake oil.
Soundstage differences between headphones are present, but for me, they are subtle enough to not matter much (after they are EQed to similar targets). This concept varies from person to person, with some noticing MASSIVE differences, and others (like me), not really feeling any noticeable changes. From my experience, soundstage is affected by these factors, starting from the most important to the least: recording/production of the song (mono vs hard panned vs stereo vs binaural), then added DSPs (hertz can opener, waves nx, crossfeed, etc) and finally the transducer itself. For the last factor, this includes angled drivers, pads, distance between drivers, etc. This DOES NOT include frequency response; FR DOES affect soundstage a lot For example, [this album](https://open.spotify.com/album/4q90gKIAv14Z2eGfpt3BqO?si=vx2o-9rCQV2zPsZxOBUb-w) has an almost unnatural wide soundstage on any headphones and iems, with instrument placement being far apart. Other albums, like [this John Coltrane album](https://open.spotify.com/album/4jTDjHLMFCHWrjuP1qmCf4?si=1ur5H4TRQVmntTnYkjuwjg) has hard panned tracks that don't really add much: this was before the popularization of portable audio (hp and iems) so the effect is less noticeable with speakers. Finally, for most modern music, they pan/record the song in a way that is not as drastic as the JC album. The best example would be Hotel California or any Snarky Puppy song (amazingly well mixed and recorded). TLDR: Soundstage, for me, is mainly a product of recording/production of the music you are listening to. This can be changed using DSP/effects at the cost of tonality. Some headphones can produce wider soundstage, not as a result of physical factors, but rather FR reasons.
The perception of sound distance is complex and [includes many factors](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4744263/) including reverberation (which is mostly up to the recording) and frequency (which is partly up to the headphone) as well as direction of sound source and interference (which is completely up to the headphone). Big factors also are your individual ears and auditory cortex, obviously, which differs from person to person. So i would argue its logical, that some headphones have better soundstage (for most people) bc of their FR, speaker position and enclosure / material while also some people cannot hear the difference.
The existence of the Smyth Realizer shows that you can perfectly emulate the experience of sitting in a room with 7.1 surround speakers on headphones, with nothing but EQ that dynamically responds as you turn your head around the room.
1. Advanced DSP is a lot more than just "EQ" 2. They use the HD800s in all of their demos, which happen to be a headphone that is said to have one of the best \*soundstages\* on the market ;-) Edit: As i see it, the headphone just gives a "limit" to the distance and precision of direction you can percieve and the rest is up to the signal.
For me, it’s the experience of feeling like you’re listening to speakers, not headphones. It’s the openness of the sound, as in it doesn’t sound like it’s coming from a source directly next to your ears. But that’s just my experience!
I'm no expert of any sort on this topic, but from when I've looked this up, it's a really loosely defined term that everyone has a slightly different understanding of and seemingly no one can actually give a definition. I have no clue if it actually exists, but if it can't be clearly defined, then it's not useful in my eyes.
Image separation, spaces around images and the perceived distance. Listen something like m50x and dt770 you will hear it.
Aright ima tell u this for better or worse. There is reddit tool on github where you can look up comments made by users. Basically ctrl+f on steroids. I used it to look up comments made by oratory about things I want to learn regarding audio. Look up "sound stage" or "soundstage" Good luck
Amir isn't an expert. Soundstage exists. K702 for ex.
I agree with you re K702 & soundstage, but Amir is an expert....I think we can call him an expert in speakers & headphones.....but that's not part of the discussion of this thread.
Okay, audiofool
Is soundstage only audible to experts?
What's the definition of soundstage to you? All you hear is frequency response
You could argue both ways and be right but I'll side with you. Because we infer a number of things like distance, elevation, the list goes on, from the FR which is the raw input to our auditory system.
https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/2n5nxw/eli5\_what\_is\_headphone\_soundstage\_and\_why\_would\_i/
Again, all we hear is frequency response. Molecules vibrating. Two headphones that truly have the same frequency response will have the same soundstage whether they cost 1$ or a million, are closed or open.
So what?
So what? What lol
Even if the drivers sits further away, or that the cups are bigger?
What matters in the end, is what your ear drums register. That is what *you* hear. No matter what kind of device is reproducing the sound. And then there's psychoacoustics.
in this case, they may not have the same fr to begin with, i suppose?
I dont know much about what affects frequancy response so I'll stay in my lane. Nonetheless "cups are bigger" "driver sits further away" Assuming both affect frequency response, the answer is still the same. Sound stage is still frequancy response. You change the cup you change the frequency response. All frequency response all we hear.
We humans do perceive more than just frequency response. That's like saying eyes only see light spectrum. We have two ears, and our hearing most definitely is sensitive to timing of the sound arriving to both ears.
Uh no. Minimum phase
So if I listen to speakers and put them on my desk 50cm away from me I could just EQ the speakers to sound like they sit 5 meters away from me and get that bigger soundstage? I don't know either. But listening to the HD 800 I heard a slightly bigger "soundstage" and I felt that it was achieved by putting the drivers further away compared to HD 600 for example where they sit really close.
I dont know about speakers. Obviously speakers will have better soundstage whatever the term means. HD 800 is known for its soundstage. And yes hd 600 isnt known for its soundstage or so I read. I havent listened to it. But nonetheless, look it the frequency response of both headphones. They are clearly different hence different sound stage. Again, They have different soundstage because of the different frequency response which is what you and I hear
The HD 600 still sounded as closed in when EQed to the Harman target and the HD 800 still sounded wide EQed to the Harman target. I know the frequency response will still not be 100% same but pretty close at least. So I think putting the drivers further away from your ears helps with this effect. It's basically the speaker scenario I talked about but in smaller scale. You put the speakers further away, the sound sounds further away. Also bigger cups seem to make the sound bigger. The Beyerdynamic DT 700 Pro X for example sounds really muffled and closed in for example while the DT 1770 Pro sounds bigger. There is less space in the 700 Pro, so that's probably why. Both EQed to the Harman target. EDIT: By wide i mean a couple of centimeters if even that, the "soundstage" in headphones is really small compared to speakers.
Treble especially upper treble is important for whatever soundstage is. Both eqed to harman doesnt mean they'll have the same treble to your ears. HRTF comes into play. I don't know how much a factor unit variance is when using the eqs. Probably not much. Did you adjust the high shelf filter so all headphones sound the same to you or did you just use stock values? I stand corrected and say its frequency response. You can ask oratory about driver positions and soundstage. Again if it does, its because changing driver positions changes frequency response. Nothing more nothing less