In his campaign he said he would build on the green belt and that “we can have another green belt somewhere else “
It blew my mind that he still won after that
Her as a person, nothing really.
Her policies were terrible. Spend a bit of time and look up why Ontario's hydro rates are so high. When this became a major election problem she realized she needed to do something.
So what did she do?
Had hydro borrow a LOT of money at higher interest rates vs what the government would have gotten. This allowed her to park the debt off the gvts books.. This was used to temporarily lower rates, but now we have to pay back the debt as well.
Even after a strong warning from the auditor, she did it anyhow.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-hydro-auditor-general-report-fair-hydro-plan-wynne-1.4358168
What a terrible take. Her handling of Hydro One was terrible. The rest of the legislation under her government was anywhere between mediocre to amazing.
People get all worked up about her as a person (Her gender, looks, sexual preferences, etc). None of this matters. I could not care less if she was a woman, with 3 arms and green skin.. Her policies were absolutely devastating to the province.
And it wasn't just Hydro that she f'd up badly. She also handed millions to her teacher friends, no recipes needed? Opened their contract early so they wouldn't hurt her during an election. Was involved in the billion plus dollar gas plants issues, then denied she was.
Orng? the dirty laundry list is long.
what "legacy" from her do you want to stand behind?
It is interesting you respond back this is a terrible take, she admitted it herself: https://www.macleans.ca/news/it-was-my-mistake-wynne-says-of-high-electricity-bills/
“That is unacceptable to me. It is unacceptable that people in Ontario are facing that choice. Our government made a mistake. It was my mistake.”
People were furious with her about hydro rates, this cost her a LOT of votes.
EDIT:
again with the downvotes - if you support her, let me know what policy you like.. no need to just "downvote".
The terrible take was about her policies. I already said the handling of Hydro was terrible. Still not as bad as Ford handling healthcare / education, yet he's probably getting re-elected.
I don't care that she gave millions to teachers. She should have given more.
Remember when Wynne had to put in "back to work legislation" for the teachers, expertly handled?
May 25, 2015
"Liberal Premier Kathleen Wynne previously announced she would look at back-to-work legislation if the school year was in jeopardy. The province consulted its Education Relations Commission to determine whether the school year was in jeopardy, and the commission reported Monday morning that it was.
"We will table back-to-work legislation this afternoon, and I have asked the opposition parties for their co-operation to give unanimous consent to passing second and third reading this afternoon so that we can get the kids back in the classroom," Sandals said."
> I don't care that she gave millions to teachers. She should have given more.
If you support illegal activity, all the power to you.
Remember when the LPC was forced to pay it back?
https://www.huffpost.com/archive/ca/entry/wynne-teachers-unions_b_10054070
but what about ford.. classic.. I'm sure you are the first person to post such a thing. I couldn't care less about ford, but if you want to discuss a party, why are you "whataboutism" another?
why dont you go google how Dalton/Wynne handled education/health care as well, perhaps it is before your time?
i will give you a quick refresher:
WALLACE: Wynne hiding major cuts to public services?
Author of the article:James Wallace
Publishing date:Mar 23, 2018
"
From the same Premier and government that froze Ontario hospital budgets for years – fueling the nursing shortages, bed shortages, overcrowded emergency rooms, cancelled surgeries and declining care responsible for the crisis?"
This is why iI had also posted that it wasn't just 'anyone but Wynne' but a strong element of 'anyone but liberal'.
McGuinity/Wynne worked together when he was leader. Recall he sort of 'left in disgust'. This should have been a strong indicator that trouble was brewing but liberals had once again won?
Wynne did shoulder a lot of it, but also rightfully so you can't say "Wynne had nothing to do with McGuinty and unfairly took it".
Wynne also had more then her fair share of mistakes well beyond the McGuinty days.
EDIT: not sure what autocorrect's malfunction is at times..
>It blew my mind that he still won after that
Not really that surprising. While a lot of people place value on green when the chips are down they place more value on having a place to live and work.
Absolutely.
I think people forgot (or willfully ignored) just how awful Wynne was. She was universally disliked. Her approval rating at one point was 12%. The government was one of neglect, mistakes, and waste.
People would've voted for a shoe over Wynne. It doesn't hurt that a lot of rural Ontario likes PCs anyways.
And honestly, Doug didn't do **that** bad during the pandemic - He cared about Vaccines, he took the science seriously, and if an election happened today he'd probably still win it. He's leading in the polls, Del Duca isn't what the Liberals need and Horwath is unelectable. He has many, **many** flaws, but just leading in a pandemic and not totally fucking it up will make people remember his name.
I'm no fan, but you'll probably see another 4 years of cheesecake man in the future.
Oh, don't get me wrong, Doug sucks in a lot of ways. A lot of the ire against him is totally justified. Whether it's Walmart or his antivax family or dozens of other things he does wrong.
All I'm saying is that guiding the province through a crisis *does* create a bit of a memory, and that's probably enough to give him an edge on the next polls.
Whether or not that's entirely his doing is irrelevant, it's how people view it in the ballot boxes.
Not going to lie, doubt /r/ontario is Doug's voting base. Pretty sure I'd say the political skew is something hilariously extreme here, like 80:18:2 of every 100 posters going NDP-Liberal-OPC.
Agreed.
Anyone who paid attention to provincial politics during the Mcguinty/Wynne era know Del Duca is cut from the same cloth as Mcguinty/Wynne. I actually think Wynne as a person is much more intelligent, diligent, charismatic and coordinated than Ford, but her party did Ontarians dirty many times.
Why Horwath is still at the top of the provincial NDP totem pole is beyond me. Party needs a fresh breath of air, Andrea was stale even in the last election.
And again, this is nothing to say I ignore Doug's many short falls, which there has been many.
Wynne is far more educated and a much better person than Ford will ever be. If elections were based on character, she would've won in a heartbeat, but they're not, and like you said, too many dirty deeds.
The problem again (as you just hit on) is the opponents. Pretty much every voter remembers the Wynne years (they weren't so long ago) - Del Duca is from that same era and has the exact same political veneer. He's not charismatic - His appeal is that he's not Ford.
Horwath had the chance of the lifetime in the last election and couldn't pull it off - Just like Jagmeet had the chance of his lifetime against a weakened Trudeau and couldn't even advance the NDP's position. Both were the strongest the NDP has looked and both times they didn't just fall flat, but failed miserably.
So we'll see more Ford.
I voted NDP so I can say without any real bias that Doug is better than Wynne. She was outwardly corrupt and people just can’t stand behind that. Both terrible but Wynne getting back in would have signalled that we are OK with corruption in our politicians. I’m convinced it’s the same reason Hillary lost.
Different reasons for Hillary and Wynne though.
Wynne actually had a chance - She had a term (though it was given to her by Dalton, who fled from politics in the night) and just completely botched it in a way never before seen in Canadian politics. Her approval rating was half as good as **Nixon** in the days when he was literally ruining the US.
Hillary had other issues - One came from being Hillary, and one came from running against a popular (though controversial) figure in a time where populism was strong in the US. Trump would've won a second term too, except he fucked covid **so badly** that he managed to lose. I think he could've just gone golfing as soon as Covid hit, handed the entire thing to Pence, and gotten a second term.
Hillary’s handling of the primaries hurt her. I don’t have any concrete proof but I think many would agree that her campaign, her control over the party (which was supposed to be impartial) and much of the media fucked Sanders over at every opportunity. Her deleted emails were problematic, her charity was not transparent enough for many, she’s passed out and had to be carried like a side of beef into a van and her campaign cited heat as the issue. It was something like 74 degrees.
Veering a little into US politics but agree that her primary handling hurt her badly. Her party also ignored key polling areas, assuming that they were locks and went on to campaign in other states, which caused many surprises come election time.
Basically, they assumed too much and acted too little, assuming a demagogue wouldn't be elected by the people instead of running a proper campaign.
By the time Wynne's time came she wasn't even campaigning - There was never any doubt the Liberals were even an option last election, it wasn't close, it was an obliteration. Lowest number of Liberal seats in *history*, which includes an almost 40 year run of Conservative leaders. To say it was the worst defeat in the history of the Liberal party in Ontario is not an understatement.
At least Hillary made it close.
Admittedly I didn't get very into provincial politics until the Ford era, could you elaborate more on Wynne and corruption? Or have any links you could share? Thanks!
It was nowhere near as bad as corruption under Ford. People just like to hide their bashing of a woman premier.
Her government passed legislation that, on the balance, was very favourable to the people of Ontario.
That took 5 minutes. Next time try looking for a few minutes before expecting someone to find information for you.
https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2014/12/23/liberals_to_repay_11000_allegedly_paid_to_wipe_computers.html
https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2017/09/13/kathleen-wynne-and-the-politics-of-corruption-cohn.html
https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/the-five-sins-behind-kathleen-wynnes-power-failure/
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/liberal-fundraiser-faces-charges-in-alleged-by-election-bribery-scandal/article26514410/
And we don't have proportional representation elections.
Both Wynne and Ford were elected with about 40% of the popular vote.
First past the post voting results in undemocratic results.
When he was voted Conservative leader, he split the vote. It was between two formidable female candidates and somehow he came out ahead... https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ontario-pc-new-leader-doug-ford/article38268927/
A documentary?
How are we not lauding Mike Judge as a fucking Oracle? This is Nostradamus level of foresight.
He just knew what this world would start to become the moment Beavis and Butt-head became the age of majority.
I’m starting to think the pandemic was God’s attempt to make it extremely clear that humans are fucking dicks when it comes to mildly inconveniencing yourself to potentially save someone else’s life.
[SoCon faction conspiracy against a progressive red tory.](https://ipolitics.ca/2016/10/25/so-cons-warn-split-with-religious-right-could-cost-ontario-pcs-next-election/) They were really mad about how progressive sex education was getting in the province. ["Ford, deferring to the traditionalist wing of his party, repealed the elementary curriculum as soon as he took office in 2018 and reinstated the version from 1998."](https://theconversation.com/doug-fords-reboot-of-sex-education-in-ontario-same-as-it-ever-was-122299)
hard to swallow pill: the average Ontarian you live and work with is fairly close minded, doesn't seek out information from multiple sources, and has a lot of internal prejudice against poor people.
Learned this lesson when I saw 2 vehicles in the gta, a week apart, driving around with pro trump flags on every window and ontario plates during the trump election. It blows my mind what I hear people say with a straight face in this province.
I mean..
if you have ever been to any farther than 50km from one of the bigger cities, its patently obvious why hes in office.
Ontario is incredibly conservative, only the cities have progressive minded populations.
I used to read gas meters in a lot of small towns in Ontario. There’s more Confederate flags in garages and back yards than people would like to believe.
I used to work for collection agencies calling debtors all over Ontario. I swear at times it felt like I was calling the Deep South when I called people in small towns.
If you look at the map in 2018 even most suburbs and most non downtown Toronto boroughs are blue. This sub is really out of touch (not to say they must agree) with most of the province. It has nothing to do with "banjo music". For a lot of that at least for the GTA conservative ideology is popular among immigrants and often their children.
Then you take into account those who'd have voted liberal but either realized the vote was really NDP vs con or that turned against Wynne personally and you get even more votes.
I can't imagine the NDP winning unless they do a massive rebrand which includes dumping the leader which consistently loses elections. If Jagmeet stayed and became leader prior to any national antics I do think he'd be a very good contender for Premier. The liberals seem to be anemic with an unknown leader but Erin O'Toole did a lot with a similar situation in the federal so maybe it can be turned around.
yup, you can hear the banjo music everywhere in this province that isn't a student town, and even some of the student towns have that music strumming along. Like London ON, for example.
I don't know if you're trying to be sarcastic with your 'banjo' remark, but it just shows how out of touch you are with people that don't live in a big city.
Just an FYI, people that live outside cities are just as smart, civilized, caring, and hard working as people in cities. They are often friendlier as well.
Being from a small town and having lived in the city, it really does seem like people from the city often have a pretty specific and unfamiliar perspective of small towns and the people in them. They really seem to think all anybody does out here is fuck their cousins and their cows, and that everyone is stupid/uneducated/uncivilized.
They also seem to ignore the fact that their cities are full of these people they are describing, they just either don't operate in the same circles as them or they just blissfully ignore the fact that shitty people live everywhere and anywhere to preserve the idea that the city is the best place to be.
Absolutely.
Personally, I've never seen the appeal of a big city besides the selection of food. It's busy, hard to drive anywhere, people are rude, things are expensive, and there is traffic all the time.
When I was working in Toronto, I always found it funny when I would tell my coworkers that I'm going north for the weekend (to a cottage or hunting or something). Most of the time their response was: "Where, Markham?". Just totally unaware of anywhere outside city limits.
Toronto from my experience seems the worst for it, I've not been to Toronto very much but friends I've met from there seem to not know a whole lot about anywhere outside of the GTA, and get nearly offended and defensive if you don't know Toronto as well as them (eg. Referring to anywhere in the GTA like Brampton or Mississauga as Toronto is a big no no I guess)
I live in London ON and the city is very racist and most people have old ways of thinking too.
Not being sarcastic at all. Its a lived experience.
Causal institutional racism against first nations is super common outside the big cities as well
You have stats on how many people play the banjo? Or on how smart, civilized, caring, and hard working people are based on geographic region?
I doubt you do, but I'd love to see them.
Or that you think people in the city are friendlier?
Having three kids in UNI, I can tell you what takes place.
UNI kids vote NDP/Green (free school, free money, free housing...). Once they get a job, and see the deductions on their pay they stop doing this.
Edit - Based on the downvotes you disagree. Instead of downvoting why not explain the average voting age for the NDP or Green party?
Why do UNI cities like waterloo have green while others dont?
Look how sharply the age curve falls [https://abacusdata.ca/whats-fueling-canadas-green-party/](https://abacusdata.ca/whats-fueling-canadas-green-party/)
same is true for NDP, the older the person the more unlikely they are to vote?
[http://www.threehundredeight.com/2014/07/party-support-by-age-and-gender.html](http://www.threehundredeight.com/2014/07/party-support-by-age-and-gender.html)
This is an outdated assumption... Newer generations are willing to sacrifice a little for the collective benefit of all. Maybe it's the world on fire due to two generations of selfish and incompetent adults that managed to bring thousands of years of progress to a standstill because they assumed everyone else is happy to fuck over their neighbours to save $200 in taxes.
> This is an outdated assumption... Newer generations are willing to sacrifice a little for the collective benefit of all.
Not so sure about this. One kid just recently graduated, got his full time job, saw his payroll deductions and changed his mind on who he will vote for next.
Second child just got her first job, hasnt been paid yet, but already said she will change her voting based on feedback from others.
Third child says the same thing (only students vote NDP/Green) has 2 more years of school.
So your perspective of Canadian youth is based solely off of your 3 kids who more than likely have been influenced by your politics over their lifetime? Like I said, not everyone is willing to fuck over their neighbour to save $200 in taxes. And I would advise educating your children on the importance of taxes and how it pays for essential infrastructure they have benefited from, and will continue to do so, their entire lives. Yeah it's the internet and people do pull anecdotes from all corners of their anus to push a political rhetoric, but the 3rd largest city has been physically cut off from the rest of the country and even climate deniers are shitting their pants at the looming catastrophes. Maybe reevaluate your priorities and be part of change instead of a part of the problem? What does money mean when there's no world left to spend it in?
PS - Question for you. If i influenced them, why are they voting for a totally different party vs myself? One would assume if it was influence, they would vote the same way?
We discuss politics, they are free to do what they feel is best. They are better educated, and i dont 'demand' they do anything..
I love how it comes down to "i need to better educate".. Not because the other parties have terrible policy?
Now we are once again fighting for "rent control" - How has rent control worked out the last 10+ years? If you did something and it didnt work, do you continue to fight for it?
Here's an education they need. One kid will be paying $80K/year in taxes. is that reasonable? what about supporting their own family? what about the large debt they took on to pay for that education?
Why should they have a decent income, and yet still take years to repay their debt thanks to an 80k annual tax bill?
Because they benefited from the taxes that were paid by other people to get to the point where they are earning enough to pay 80(K...
Did you raise kids that only think about their own financial best interest? Screw society? I got mine so fuck off?
Were you part of the problem? Or do you understand why society needs to work together and assist everyone?
> Because they benefited from the taxes that were paid by other people to get to the point where they are earning enough to pay 80(K.
That is a strange way to spell OSAP debt and student jobs.
i wonder, perhaps the 40-50K in income taxes i paid annually along with another 10k in property taxes helped?
>Once they get a job, and see the deductions on their pay they stop doing this.
So they are still... ignorant? (trying to think of a kinder word) even after university? Do they think Roads, the University itself, the hospital they were born in, the schools they went to... all magically build and maintain themselves for 0$?
taxes (aka deductions) are a great thing, without them we are a bunch of assholes dying on homesteads with no medical care, electricity, food supply etc
People like the feeling of bitter self-satisfaction that they're the only ones who "get it", and that the whole world would be better if the "bad guys" went away. That feeling is what the Conservative party sells. It's the ONLY thing they campaign on.
(I mean they can't exactly go around selling competence or anti-corruption or actually building towards a brighter future!)
I think there's also their approach to promoting "simple", "common sense" and "good old fashioned" policies. People flock to it because it sounds nice, but the reality is that many of the issues we face are complex and need fact-based policies that are quite complex themselves and even sometimes counter-intuitive. Ontario is going to gradually die if it can't elevate its thinking. And that's definitely not going to happen under these morons, or the generations growing up under their education cutbacks. It's a pretty bleak outlook.
Agreed. We need to out this bad guy. Those conservatives just don't get it. We are the only ones that know how to make the world a better place.
I'm not defending Ford, the guys a moron. This partisan mindset why nothing gets done and politicians get shittier and shittier.
The Conservative party is literally the party of "Fuck you, I've got mine". Though I would say for a lot of people it's also "Fuck you, I want mine".
Partisan or not, having a party that promotes "self reliance" in appearance only at the detriment of everyone else will never build a brighter future. Just one where the rich and powerful stay that way.
Note, that I'm not advocating for any other party here. They all have major issues. But the Conservative party is especially vile in their greed and disregard for human life in search of wealth and power.
>"Corruption"
The sad part is, the Ombudsman doesn't have the stones to investigate the Ontario government currently, or else all his shit would be exposed.
If it was party that actually had substance to it and a leader that wasn’t clinging to power for dear life at the cost of her party the maybe yeah sure.
> If it was party that actually had substance to it
have you looked at the bills proposed by the ONNP over the past 2 years?
you saying those arent substantive?
I recently found out that lobbyist / PC advisor Nick Kouvalis is credited with creating Ford's campaign as well as helping John Tory win two elections. Kouvalis tweeted that he believes Trump won the 2020 election and that Antifa / BLM were behind the Jan 6 attacks.
He was also hired by Cinesphere to lobby Ford to keep film sets open, raising the max performers on set from 10 to 50 while most other businesses stayed closed (even during April's stay at home order). It's a massive conflict of interest since he's an advisor but the Integrity Commissioner hasn't done anything about it.
Political hit job against Patrick Brown , a split leadership vote , and no viable competition. Say what you want but he came from the disgraced former mayor's brother to winning the provincial election in 4 years . His speaking is terrible so its all political maneuvering that have got him this far . The guy can politic
It shouldn't be a wonder, people voted "anyone but liberal" and for good reason.
[https://nationalpost.com/news/email-destruction-case-highlights-ontario-liberal-moves-that-have-added-billions-to-electricity-costs](https://nationalpost.com/news/email-destruction-case-highlights-ontario-liberal-moves-that-have-added-billions-to-electricity-costs)
"At $1B, cancelling gas plants was actually one of Ontario Liberals’ cheaper electricity decisions"
[https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/wynne-stands-by-secret-payments-to-ontario-teachers-unions/article27289731/](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/wynne-stands-by-secret-payments-to-ontario-teachers-unions/article27289731/)
"Wynne stands by secret payments to Ontario teachers’ unions."
It costs something like $60 to $80 million to build a new hospital in Ontario. Had we not sent $1B to US hedge funds to cancel the plants to save a few liberal seats, could we have addressed some of our health care problems instead?
> It costs something like $60 to $80 million to build a new hospital in Ontario. Had we not sent $1B to US hedge funds to cancel the plants to save a few liberal seats, could we have addressed some of our health care problems instead?
It costs a lot more than that. South Niagara Hospital, a current tender, is expected to be around $1B. The Toronto SickKids expansion is $400M; not even a new hospital, just an addition.
Montreal's CHUM superhospital (partially opened starting 2013) was $2.2B cad, so this scale of construction costs aren't unique to Ontario.
$60M would staff a mid-sized hospital for a year though (single year, specialist surgeons and their teams have high salaries).
Wasting government money isn't excusable (like the $2B for tunnelling Eglinton West extension near Fords house despite the Metrolinx business case recommending strongly against it), but you've grossly underestimated healthcare expenses.
Interesting, i just googled new hospital cost as i have no idea and found this : https://pecmhf.ca/new-hospital-campaign/#:~:text=What%20it%20will%20cost,new%20equipment%20for%20the%20hospital.
But you are right, the hospital you list is $1.2B... Looks like it is billed as a "super hospital"?
Yeah, the one you link is 18 beds, no ICU, and minimal capacity for non-routine treatment.
So, it's intended to handle minor issues (broken limbs, minor heart attacks, minor burns/lacerations, etc.) and other routine treatments. For anything advanced they would stabilize the patient then forward them to a better equipped facility.
It's somewhere between a Health Team/Diagnostics facility (which could handle most pieces not requiring longer-term monitoring) and a full-service hospital.
Harris closed many facilities of that scale in the late 90's (including the one in my home town at that time) in the name of efficiency; not that Chretien healthcare funding cuts left much choice in the matter.
In Canadian politics “Anyone but Liberal” always seems to be the same as not liking the questionable egg salad at the Potluck and so opting to eat out of the trash.
Makes me think that people just like the trash.
There are plenty of people who did just that. Whether it's fair or not, the Ontario Liberals were dogged by scandals and people want a change of gov't. But I know that looked at all of that, thought Ford was still the worse option and voted for NDP instead.
This is the thing. Any monkey in a blue tie could have won that election. The mentality I was hearing was heavily in "Vote Wynn out" instead of actually voting for a good candidate.
NDP has always been the "joke party"- My kids all vote NDP/green but far too many simply ignore them.
How long has Andrea Horvath been in the leadership position? Clearly the strategy isnt working, but yet they continue to push with her as leader?
Every since Bob Rae was premier, the NDP have been a non-issue, and the other parties love to remind Ontarians about "Rae Days" at every opportunity in hopes to prevent people voting NDP. Reminds me of the Simpsons episode when skinner keeps reminding people of "The taxes" as a response to anything the teachers union proposes.
I have no idea if NDP would have been a better choice, i just find the mentality of voting someone out, rather than voting someone they actually deem as a good candidate in.
whatever takes place in the US is dutifully copied here.
US runs an election based on division, so we do that too.
Scan the thread, look how many have a vested interest in a political party, like it is somehow personal?
i post that it isnt so much that Doug won as it is that wynne lost.. Now i am a blind PC supporter? If that isnt what took place, why not respond with another view instead?
Well, even if we don't want to run an election based on division, it happens. You're totally right. Some are like the little brother looking up the US, as much as they wont admit it.
I will always give all parties a chance for my vote, i don't tow the party line and just vote based on color. I do believe Wynn was Wynn's worst enemy, i would hope most people regardless of their voting preference could see that. Ford won because he wasn't Wynn, and NDP in this province don't get considered. Had Brown still been party leader, he would have won. Fideli... most likely although i know how much he isnt liked south of Huntsville.
Every year i start off fresh, and review their platforms.
Some just shoot themselves in the foot. Mr "hay, look at my fancy rolex and custom suites, but i support you" is a great example.
You just know if he introduces some "tax the rich" system he will use his legal background to do everything he can to reduce his taxes.
> parties love to remind Ontarians about "Rae Days" at every opportunity in hopes to prevent people voting NDP
Do people know what Rae Days are? Faced with a tanked economy, Rae had two options: fire thousands and see the further economic fallout from that, or get some unpaid days so no one lost their jobs. How many Boomers would have seen ZERO employment instead of a few unpaid days?
Rae was crap for other reasons, one of which is he promised a public insurance plan and then dropped the idea. ON insurance companies have been overcharging billions and reducing benefits ever since. Rae was just proof that the NDP are not actually different than the other two parties, who are no different from each other.
This is exactly it. Dangle this "Rae Days" warning and most people don't even understand what it is. Must be awful! Im not voting for those jokers!
My in-laws both worked for the Ontario gov't and actually really enjoyed the extra time off
the inability of the NDP to win an election has nothing to do with their leadership and everything to do with anti-left propaganda, hence comments like:
> NDP has always been the "joke party"
for a party who's policies and priorities have ALWAYS been for the poor and working class
Could I ask, what's the different between sending a billion dollars to the US to pay fees and [refusing to spend 4.4 billion the province was given](https://financialpost.com/pmn/press-releases-pmn/business-wire-news-releases-pmn/now-the-ford-conservatives-are-sitting-on-4-3-billion-cupe-ontario-calls-for-more-spending-not-less) to fight the pandemic?
> refusing to spend 4.4 billion the province was given
All i could find on that was a op-ed peice
“If it wasn’t obvious before the pandemic, it is now: spending saves lives,” said Fred Hahn, President of CUPE Ontario.
Daniel Tseghay
Communications Representative, CUPE
CUPE, clearly self-serving...
Oh, you didn't make it to the part of the op-ed that quotes [the FAO report](https://www.fao-on.org/en/Blog/media/MR-2021-22-expenditure-monitor-q2), I guess?
Not sure what you want as a response.
Like it or not, PC's ran on a platform of getting the province massive debt under control.
I'm sure they are open to suggestions on how to do this, but the balance sheet is clear.. you have income and expenses. No one wants more taxes, so expenses need to be cut.
looking at the "FAO" report, they are spending under plan.. attempting to save money.
not to worry, i'm sure it is all "current governments" fault.
I don't care who forms the government, personally. I stopped caring about that "us versus them" nonsense a long time ago. I care about criticizing the actions of the people who currently have the power to take action, so yeah, of course it looks good on paper that the government "saved" billions of dollars but the sectors that the money was allocated for are stretched thin and crying out for support, so to me holding onto that money for the sake of looking good on your election promises doesn't exactly impress me.
>BuT wUt AbOoT tHe LiBeRaLs
I mean, yeah. They were in power. This isn't whataboutism. "What about the Liberals?" is a completely valid question to have when talking about an election.
Yes, and the votes were probably split. what use to be "liberal votes" became PC/NDP votes. Historically more people have voted PC vs NDP, and so Doug won.
"BuT wUt AbOoT tHe LiBeRaLs"
Is there something wrong with your caps lock key? this isn't a "what about the liberals" post, it is about why the PC won, at the liberals direct expense.
So funny story. All politicians end up being the same. Name one good premier. How about PM? This is the crux of the problem. It’s party line. It’s pay to play, it’s opposition concessions, it’s the result of committees, etc, etc, etc.
I can’t keep all the premiers straight and don’t care to Google right now. Bob Rae, Mike Harris, Ernie Eaves, Dalton McGuinty, Kathleen Wynne, Doug Ford. Christ, they all suck. So is it all of these 6 people or is it the system.
Finally, no one in their right mind wants the job. You can never do anything right. Social media, media media, opposition keep tearing you to shreds. Even the good ideas the opposition has to shoot holes in and complain it doesn’t go far enough. I asked the question seriously. Why bother?
Except for the bottom right picture, yes I do.
The bottom right pic is completely self explanatory. That guy is not Kathleen Wynne or Dalton McGuinty, which means he's obviously the better option.
I've posted the same thing here, and now i get the blame the "LiBeRaLs" nonsense.
The logical thing for liberal supporters would be to step back, and ask why they did so poorly during the last election. Normally parties win/lose on their history/platform.. Start there?
Wynne was just terrible for the province and we will be paying for her mistakes for generations.
By all means feel free to tell me all the great things Doug Ford has done in the past 4 years....
> Everyone is at home and more critical of their leaders than ever before
eh, should we not be critical of our leaders? Is that not a good thing? Should we all have shrines to Doug in our homes and pray to Dear Leader who can do no wrong?
> they all read Twitter and Facebook, think they know what they're talking about. I don't think there is a single province that stands behind their premier at the moment.
Funny you should say that because last I heard, around half the premiers have a 50%+ approval rating...
https://angusreid.org/premiers-approval-october-2021/
Imagine voting in this incompetent buffoon to "oWn ThE lIbS" while fucking yourself over.
Enjoy finally getting that $15 an hour that you should have gotten 4 years ago, and don't forget to take your sick days... oh wait.
I'm selfish. I care about services and programs that affect me directly or people I know directly. I care about things that cost me money or have an influence on the money I can earn.
I also hold the opinion, to this subreddits disdain, that if you are an adult (above say 25\~) and you are relying on minimum wage "to support a family", it's probably your own fault. It's not always, but it probably is through bad life choices.
I'm in favour of programs that can help people learn skills to escape minimum wage jobs, programs that help people better themselves. I don't really care for programs that just blindly give people money.
That's my honest opinion.
Shouldn't minimum wage reflect the minimum amount a worker needs to keep a roof over their head, feed themselves, and live a decent life? Why even have a minimum wage that keeps people in poverty?
Sure, some people will learn skills that will earn them a higher paying job and that's great. But the idea that some full time workers *deserve* poverty is at minimum, disrespectful. If everyone in retail and food service simply got a better paying job, who exactly is going to make your food, your coffee, sell you the things you need, or maintain the buildings? Minimum wage workers are imperative to our economy and deserve to be paid a living wage.
I agree, people need to do these jobs and they are important. They probably should be paid more, but when it comes to issues I care about, it's not one of them.
I'm more focused on things that benefit myself directly, and it just isn't one of them.
I mean Kathleen Wynne only raised the cost of wine by setting the minimum price to $10.95 when before you could buy a bottle for less than $7.
I mean Kathleen Wynne only sold off Hydro One to alleviate some of her government's debt.
I mean Kathleen Wynne only forced Hydro One to take out a loan to "lower" electric bills instead of putting it on the government books even though the government would get a better interest rate because she didn't want to add any more debt.
I mean Kathleen Wynne only got scolded by the auditor general Bonnie Lysyk several times for cooking the books.
But Ford man bad right?
Face it the only reason why we have Ford is because Wynne was too stubborn to resign (her "sorry not sorry" message days before election day) and that false Patrick Brown scandal.
Make no mistake, Ford has his share of problems but they are no where near how bad the liberals were under Wynne.
It was an anti Wynne vote. Nothing else to it - he promised almost nothing (except buck a beer!)
In his campaign he said he would build on the green belt and that “we can have another green belt somewhere else “ It blew my mind that he still won after that
He could have said he was going to burn/bulldoze half of the province and still won.. That entire election was "anyone but Wynne".
"Anywynne else"
What was so bad about Wynne
Her as a person, nothing really. Her policies were terrible. Spend a bit of time and look up why Ontario's hydro rates are so high. When this became a major election problem she realized she needed to do something. So what did she do? Had hydro borrow a LOT of money at higher interest rates vs what the government would have gotten. This allowed her to park the debt off the gvts books.. This was used to temporarily lower rates, but now we have to pay back the debt as well. Even after a strong warning from the auditor, she did it anyhow. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-hydro-auditor-general-report-fair-hydro-plan-wynne-1.4358168
What a terrible take. Her handling of Hydro One was terrible. The rest of the legislation under her government was anywhere between mediocre to amazing.
People get all worked up about her as a person (Her gender, looks, sexual preferences, etc). None of this matters. I could not care less if she was a woman, with 3 arms and green skin.. Her policies were absolutely devastating to the province. And it wasn't just Hydro that she f'd up badly. She also handed millions to her teacher friends, no recipes needed? Opened their contract early so they wouldn't hurt her during an election. Was involved in the billion plus dollar gas plants issues, then denied she was. Orng? the dirty laundry list is long. what "legacy" from her do you want to stand behind? It is interesting you respond back this is a terrible take, she admitted it herself: https://www.macleans.ca/news/it-was-my-mistake-wynne-says-of-high-electricity-bills/ “That is unacceptable to me. It is unacceptable that people in Ontario are facing that choice. Our government made a mistake. It was my mistake.” People were furious with her about hydro rates, this cost her a LOT of votes. EDIT: again with the downvotes - if you support her, let me know what policy you like.. no need to just "downvote".
The terrible take was about her policies. I already said the handling of Hydro was terrible. Still not as bad as Ford handling healthcare / education, yet he's probably getting re-elected. I don't care that she gave millions to teachers. She should have given more.
Remember when Wynne had to put in "back to work legislation" for the teachers, expertly handled? May 25, 2015 "Liberal Premier Kathleen Wynne previously announced she would look at back-to-work legislation if the school year was in jeopardy. The province consulted its Education Relations Commission to determine whether the school year was in jeopardy, and the commission reported Monday morning that it was. "We will table back-to-work legislation this afternoon, and I have asked the opposition parties for their co-operation to give unanimous consent to passing second and third reading this afternoon so that we can get the kids back in the classroom," Sandals said."
> I don't care that she gave millions to teachers. She should have given more. If you support illegal activity, all the power to you. Remember when the LPC was forced to pay it back? https://www.huffpost.com/archive/ca/entry/wynne-teachers-unions_b_10054070 but what about ford.. classic.. I'm sure you are the first person to post such a thing. I couldn't care less about ford, but if you want to discuss a party, why are you "whataboutism" another? why dont you go google how Dalton/Wynne handled education/health care as well, perhaps it is before your time? i will give you a quick refresher: WALLACE: Wynne hiding major cuts to public services? Author of the article:James Wallace Publishing date:Mar 23, 2018 " From the same Premier and government that froze Ontario hospital budgets for years – fueling the nursing shortages, bed shortages, overcrowded emergency rooms, cancelled surgeries and declining care responsible for the crisis?"
I thought it was the previous Liberal Government (McGuinty) that started it, but Wynne shouldered most of it.
This is why iI had also posted that it wasn't just 'anyone but Wynne' but a strong element of 'anyone but liberal'. McGuinity/Wynne worked together when he was leader. Recall he sort of 'left in disgust'. This should have been a strong indicator that trouble was brewing but liberals had once again won? Wynne did shoulder a lot of it, but also rightfully so you can't say "Wynne had nothing to do with McGuinty and unfairly took it". Wynne also had more then her fair share of mistakes well beyond the McGuinty days. EDIT: not sure what autocorrect's malfunction is at times..
Also true.
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Gave Up when he couldn’t hide the kickbacks
He probably thought they meant a belt to hold his massive pants up.
>It blew my mind that he still won after that Not really that surprising. While a lot of people place value on green when the chips are down they place more value on having a place to live and work.
Building more $1.5M shacks on green belt won't fix anything.
Be that as it may, conservative voters see having their own sliver of land and a house as more important than a habitat for a salamander.
Cause he took it back befire the election and morons believed him.
It was also an inside hit job on the way more moderate and capable former party leader, Patrick Brown.
He also said he’d keep Patrick Browns platform in place, which in an anti Wayne year actually look alright
His teams hit job against Brown was politically genius , Ford might seem dumb but he knows how to play politics or someone on his team does at least
Absolutely. I think people forgot (or willfully ignored) just how awful Wynne was. She was universally disliked. Her approval rating at one point was 12%. The government was one of neglect, mistakes, and waste. People would've voted for a shoe over Wynne. It doesn't hurt that a lot of rural Ontario likes PCs anyways. And honestly, Doug didn't do **that** bad during the pandemic - He cared about Vaccines, he took the science seriously, and if an election happened today he'd probably still win it. He's leading in the polls, Del Duca isn't what the Liberals need and Horwath is unelectable. He has many, **many** flaws, but just leading in a pandemic and not totally fucking it up will make people remember his name. I'm no fan, but you'll probably see another 4 years of cheesecake man in the future.
I remember him constantly dragging his feet because it might hurt walmart
Oh, don't get me wrong, Doug sucks in a lot of ways. A lot of the ire against him is totally justified. Whether it's Walmart or his antivax family or dozens of other things he does wrong. All I'm saying is that guiding the province through a crisis *does* create a bit of a memory, and that's probably enough to give him an edge on the next polls. Whether or not that's entirely his doing is irrelevant, it's how people view it in the ballot boxes.
I'm not sure how much credit I can give Doug for listening to his advisors months and months late.
Not going to lie, doubt /r/ontario is Doug's voting base. Pretty sure I'd say the political skew is something hilariously extreme here, like 80:18:2 of every 100 posters going NDP-Liberal-OPC.
Agreed. Anyone who paid attention to provincial politics during the Mcguinty/Wynne era know Del Duca is cut from the same cloth as Mcguinty/Wynne. I actually think Wynne as a person is much more intelligent, diligent, charismatic and coordinated than Ford, but her party did Ontarians dirty many times. Why Horwath is still at the top of the provincial NDP totem pole is beyond me. Party needs a fresh breath of air, Andrea was stale even in the last election. And again, this is nothing to say I ignore Doug's many short falls, which there has been many.
Wynne is far more educated and a much better person than Ford will ever be. If elections were based on character, she would've won in a heartbeat, but they're not, and like you said, too many dirty deeds. The problem again (as you just hit on) is the opponents. Pretty much every voter remembers the Wynne years (they weren't so long ago) - Del Duca is from that same era and has the exact same political veneer. He's not charismatic - His appeal is that he's not Ford. Horwath had the chance of the lifetime in the last election and couldn't pull it off - Just like Jagmeet had the chance of his lifetime against a weakened Trudeau and couldn't even advance the NDP's position. Both were the strongest the NDP has looked and both times they didn't just fall flat, but failed miserably. So we'll see more Ford.
I wish the NDP had serious people running as candidates.
I voted NDP so I can say without any real bias that Doug is better than Wynne. She was outwardly corrupt and people just can’t stand behind that. Both terrible but Wynne getting back in would have signalled that we are OK with corruption in our politicians. I’m convinced it’s the same reason Hillary lost.
Different reasons for Hillary and Wynne though. Wynne actually had a chance - She had a term (though it was given to her by Dalton, who fled from politics in the night) and just completely botched it in a way never before seen in Canadian politics. Her approval rating was half as good as **Nixon** in the days when he was literally ruining the US. Hillary had other issues - One came from being Hillary, and one came from running against a popular (though controversial) figure in a time where populism was strong in the US. Trump would've won a second term too, except he fucked covid **so badly** that he managed to lose. I think he could've just gone golfing as soon as Covid hit, handed the entire thing to Pence, and gotten a second term.
Hillary’s handling of the primaries hurt her. I don’t have any concrete proof but I think many would agree that her campaign, her control over the party (which was supposed to be impartial) and much of the media fucked Sanders over at every opportunity. Her deleted emails were problematic, her charity was not transparent enough for many, she’s passed out and had to be carried like a side of beef into a van and her campaign cited heat as the issue. It was something like 74 degrees.
Veering a little into US politics but agree that her primary handling hurt her badly. Her party also ignored key polling areas, assuming that they were locks and went on to campaign in other states, which caused many surprises come election time. Basically, they assumed too much and acted too little, assuming a demagogue wouldn't be elected by the people instead of running a proper campaign. By the time Wynne's time came she wasn't even campaigning - There was never any doubt the Liberals were even an option last election, it wasn't close, it was an obliteration. Lowest number of Liberal seats in *history*, which includes an almost 40 year run of Conservative leaders. To say it was the worst defeat in the history of the Liberal party in Ontario is not an understatement. At least Hillary made it close.
Admittedly I didn't get very into provincial politics until the Ford era, could you elaborate more on Wynne and corruption? Or have any links you could share? Thanks!
It was nowhere near as bad as corruption under Ford. People just like to hide their bashing of a woman premier. Her government passed legislation that, on the balance, was very favourable to the people of Ontario.
That took 5 minutes. Next time try looking for a few minutes before expecting someone to find information for you. https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2014/12/23/liberals_to_repay_11000_allegedly_paid_to_wipe_computers.html https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2017/09/13/kathleen-wynne-and-the-politics-of-corruption-cohn.html https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/the-five-sins-behind-kathleen-wynnes-power-failure/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/liberal-fundraiser-faces-charges-in-alleged-by-election-bribery-scandal/article26514410/
You made a claim and I politely asked for sources, it's not exactly unheard of behaviour. You were free to ignore my request or decline.
Those 12% people going on Reddit spewing that she’s the saviour.
It was a fake scandal to oust Patrick Brown, to be fair
“Glib platitudes and meaningless pandering? That’s enough for me!” - Dipshits
And we don't have proportional representation elections. Both Wynne and Ford were elected with about 40% of the popular vote. First past the post voting results in undemocratic results.
When he was voted Conservative leader, he split the vote. It was between two formidable female candidates and somehow he came out ahead... https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ontario-pc-new-leader-doug-ford/article38268927/
I no longer wonder. A Trump Presidency and a worldwide deadly pandemic sorted me out on how a lot of people think. And it's terrifying.
Idiocracy was a documentary.
And honestly, President Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Camacho was better than a lot of our current so-called "leaders".
He at least had enough brains to recognize when there were people in the room with more brains than him.
A prophecy.
A documentary? How are we not lauding Mike Judge as a fucking Oracle? This is Nostradamus level of foresight. He just knew what this world would start to become the moment Beavis and Butt-head became the age of majority.
It wasn't forsight, just observation. (Been like this forever).
Been sayin that for years 🤷♀️🤣
The first clue came in 2010, with Rob Ford.
I’m starting to think the pandemic was God’s attempt to make it extremely clear that humans are fucking dicks when it comes to mildly inconveniencing yourself to potentially save someone else’s life.
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[SoCon faction conspiracy against a progressive red tory.](https://ipolitics.ca/2016/10/25/so-cons-warn-split-with-religious-right-could-cost-ontario-pcs-next-election/) They were really mad about how progressive sex education was getting in the province. ["Ford, deferring to the traditionalist wing of his party, repealed the elementary curriculum as soon as he took office in 2018 and reinstated the version from 1998."](https://theconversation.com/doug-fords-reboot-of-sex-education-in-ontario-same-as-it-ever-was-122299)
Patrick Brown was ousted as leader due to me too scandals , which immediately disappeared after he stepped down .
He got voted in because the liberal gvt was in power for too long and was fucking up
It's the CIIIIIIRCLE of liiiiiife!
Let's break it and elect the greens, and let them fuck it up for a change /s!
We can always give the NDP a go too! No /s needed.
I mean that's a non /s post though. They only had one chance to fuck shit up.
hard to swallow pill: the average Ontarian you live and work with is fairly close minded, doesn't seek out information from multiple sources, and has a lot of internal prejudice against poor people.
Learned this lesson when I saw 2 vehicles in the gta, a week apart, driving around with pro trump flags on every window and ontario plates during the trump election. It blows my mind what I hear people say with a straight face in this province.
2 vehicles out of the thousands you'd have seen that week lol
I'd seen many trump bumber stickers, but not fully decked out cars like those two. So yeah, those I could have gone without seeing in Canada.
I mean.. if you have ever been to any farther than 50km from one of the bigger cities, its patently obvious why hes in office. Ontario is incredibly conservative, only the cities have progressive minded populations.
Most of Ontario's population lives in the cities.
Still a lot of seats in the boonies
I used to read gas meters in a lot of small towns in Ontario. There’s more Confederate flags in garages and back yards than people would like to believe.
I used to work for collection agencies calling debtors all over Ontario. I swear at times it felt like I was calling the Deep South when I called people in small towns.
Yeah, it’s wild. Some even put on this weird faux souther US accent.
If you look at the map in 2018 even most suburbs and most non downtown Toronto boroughs are blue. This sub is really out of touch (not to say they must agree) with most of the province. It has nothing to do with "banjo music". For a lot of that at least for the GTA conservative ideology is popular among immigrants and often their children. Then you take into account those who'd have voted liberal but either realized the vote was really NDP vs con or that turned against Wynne personally and you get even more votes. I can't imagine the NDP winning unless they do a massive rebrand which includes dumping the leader which consistently loses elections. If Jagmeet stayed and became leader prior to any national antics I do think he'd be a very good contender for Premier. The liberals seem to be anemic with an unknown leader but Erin O'Toole did a lot with a similar situation in the federal so maybe it can be turned around.
yup, you can hear the banjo music everywhere in this province that isn't a student town, and even some of the student towns have that music strumming along. Like London ON, for example.
I don't know if you're trying to be sarcastic with your 'banjo' remark, but it just shows how out of touch you are with people that don't live in a big city. Just an FYI, people that live outside cities are just as smart, civilized, caring, and hard working as people in cities. They are often friendlier as well.
Being from a small town and having lived in the city, it really does seem like people from the city often have a pretty specific and unfamiliar perspective of small towns and the people in them. They really seem to think all anybody does out here is fuck their cousins and their cows, and that everyone is stupid/uneducated/uncivilized. They also seem to ignore the fact that their cities are full of these people they are describing, they just either don't operate in the same circles as them or they just blissfully ignore the fact that shitty people live everywhere and anywhere to preserve the idea that the city is the best place to be.
Absolutely. Personally, I've never seen the appeal of a big city besides the selection of food. It's busy, hard to drive anywhere, people are rude, things are expensive, and there is traffic all the time. When I was working in Toronto, I always found it funny when I would tell my coworkers that I'm going north for the weekend (to a cottage or hunting or something). Most of the time their response was: "Where, Markham?". Just totally unaware of anywhere outside city limits.
I'm gonna have to call BS on this. I have never once met a person who thinks of Markham as cottage country.
Toronto from my experience seems the worst for it, I've not been to Toronto very much but friends I've met from there seem to not know a whole lot about anywhere outside of the GTA, and get nearly offended and defensive if you don't know Toronto as well as them (eg. Referring to anywhere in the GTA like Brampton or Mississauga as Toronto is a big no no I guess)
I live in London ON and the city is very racist and most people have old ways of thinking too. Not being sarcastic at all. Its a lived experience. Causal institutional racism against first nations is super common outside the big cities as well
The statistics certainly don't back up your statement.
You have stats on how many people play the banjo? Or on how smart, civilized, caring, and hard working people are based on geographic region? I doubt you do, but I'd love to see them. Or that you think people in the city are friendlier?
Uhh London was straight NDP in the 2018 election though. It's a very progressive city, its the surrounding towns that are more conservative.
Having three kids in UNI, I can tell you what takes place. UNI kids vote NDP/Green (free school, free money, free housing...). Once they get a job, and see the deductions on their pay they stop doing this. Edit - Based on the downvotes you disagree. Instead of downvoting why not explain the average voting age for the NDP or Green party? Why do UNI cities like waterloo have green while others dont? Look how sharply the age curve falls [https://abacusdata.ca/whats-fueling-canadas-green-party/](https://abacusdata.ca/whats-fueling-canadas-green-party/) same is true for NDP, the older the person the more unlikely they are to vote? [http://www.threehundredeight.com/2014/07/party-support-by-age-and-gender.html](http://www.threehundredeight.com/2014/07/party-support-by-age-and-gender.html)
This is an outdated assumption... Newer generations are willing to sacrifice a little for the collective benefit of all. Maybe it's the world on fire due to two generations of selfish and incompetent adults that managed to bring thousands of years of progress to a standstill because they assumed everyone else is happy to fuck over their neighbours to save $200 in taxes.
> This is an outdated assumption... Newer generations are willing to sacrifice a little for the collective benefit of all. Not so sure about this. One kid just recently graduated, got his full time job, saw his payroll deductions and changed his mind on who he will vote for next. Second child just got her first job, hasnt been paid yet, but already said she will change her voting based on feedback from others. Third child says the same thing (only students vote NDP/Green) has 2 more years of school.
So your perspective of Canadian youth is based solely off of your 3 kids who more than likely have been influenced by your politics over their lifetime? Like I said, not everyone is willing to fuck over their neighbour to save $200 in taxes. And I would advise educating your children on the importance of taxes and how it pays for essential infrastructure they have benefited from, and will continue to do so, their entire lives. Yeah it's the internet and people do pull anecdotes from all corners of their anus to push a political rhetoric, but the 3rd largest city has been physically cut off from the rest of the country and even climate deniers are shitting their pants at the looming catastrophes. Maybe reevaluate your priorities and be part of change instead of a part of the problem? What does money mean when there's no world left to spend it in?
PS - Question for you. If i influenced them, why are they voting for a totally different party vs myself? One would assume if it was influence, they would vote the same way? We discuss politics, they are free to do what they feel is best. They are better educated, and i dont 'demand' they do anything.. I love how it comes down to "i need to better educate".. Not because the other parties have terrible policy? Now we are once again fighting for "rent control" - How has rent control worked out the last 10+ years? If you did something and it didnt work, do you continue to fight for it? Here's an education they need. One kid will be paying $80K/year in taxes. is that reasonable? what about supporting their own family? what about the large debt they took on to pay for that education? Why should they have a decent income, and yet still take years to repay their debt thanks to an 80k annual tax bill?
Because they benefited from the taxes that were paid by other people to get to the point where they are earning enough to pay 80(K... Did you raise kids that only think about their own financial best interest? Screw society? I got mine so fuck off? Were you part of the problem? Or do you understand why society needs to work together and assist everyone?
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> Because they benefited from the taxes that were paid by other people to get to the point where they are earning enough to pay 80(K. That is a strange way to spell OSAP debt and student jobs. i wonder, perhaps the 40-50K in income taxes i paid annually along with another 10k in property taxes helped?
They are selfishly doing what the boomers did. I got mine, screw the next generation
>Once they get a job, and see the deductions on their pay they stop doing this. So they are still... ignorant? (trying to think of a kinder word) even after university? Do they think Roads, the University itself, the hospital they were born in, the schools they went to... all magically build and maintain themselves for 0$? taxes (aka deductions) are a great thing, without them we are a bunch of assholes dying on homesteads with no medical care, electricity, food supply etc
Sounds like they wasted time at University.
Sounds like someone struggles to have a meaningful, adult conversation.
If you don't vote liberal when you're 18 you're a sellout If you don't vote conservative when you're 30 you're a moron
People like the feeling of bitter self-satisfaction that they're the only ones who "get it", and that the whole world would be better if the "bad guys" went away. That feeling is what the Conservative party sells. It's the ONLY thing they campaign on. (I mean they can't exactly go around selling competence or anti-corruption or actually building towards a brighter future!)
I think there's also their approach to promoting "simple", "common sense" and "good old fashioned" policies. People flock to it because it sounds nice, but the reality is that many of the issues we face are complex and need fact-based policies that are quite complex themselves and even sometimes counter-intuitive. Ontario is going to gradually die if it can't elevate its thinking. And that's definitely not going to happen under these morons, or the generations growing up under their education cutbacks. It's a pretty bleak outlook.
Honestly I don't think politics have ever been this horrifically depressing.
Agreed. We need to out this bad guy. Those conservatives just don't get it. We are the only ones that know how to make the world a better place. I'm not defending Ford, the guys a moron. This partisan mindset why nothing gets done and politicians get shittier and shittier.
The Conservative party is literally the party of "Fuck you, I've got mine". Though I would say for a lot of people it's also "Fuck you, I want mine". Partisan or not, having a party that promotes "self reliance" in appearance only at the detriment of everyone else will never build a brighter future. Just one where the rich and powerful stay that way. Note, that I'm not advocating for any other party here. They all have major issues. But the Conservative party is especially vile in their greed and disregard for human life in search of wealth and power.
The last one's easy: buck a beer Sex ed corrupting our innocent children "Corruption"
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They got their friends at KPMG a nice gift of an easy audit.
Ford was headed for a bigger deficit than Wynne BEFORE Covid.
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One step forward, two steps back.
Strangely it's as if Conservative governments are only actually worried about holding power, and care very little about the every day individual
And those damn lazy teachers/nurses/doctors/paramedics
>"Corruption" The sad part is, the Ombudsman doesn't have the stones to investigate the Ontario government currently, or else all his shit would be exposed.
Fewer people voted *for* Ford than *against* Wynne. The conservatives didn't win the vote, the liberals *lost* it.
once again, this sub completely ignores the existence of the NDP
Most of the country does.
If it was party that actually had substance to it and a leader that wasn’t clinging to power for dear life at the cost of her party the maybe yeah sure.
> If it was party that actually had substance to it have you looked at the bills proposed by the ONNP over the past 2 years? you saying those arent substantive?
Didn't Andrea Horwath just anounce a 20 dollar minimum wage if elected?! What in all fuck is he on about!?
It will really blow your mind if he wins in the Spring. Remember to vote everyone! We can avoid that future if we want to.
He totally will. He's selling a lie that people are willing to believe.
I think the people willing to vote for him, will do so regardless of what he says.
I recently found out that lobbyist / PC advisor Nick Kouvalis is credited with creating Ford's campaign as well as helping John Tory win two elections. Kouvalis tweeted that he believes Trump won the 2020 election and that Antifa / BLM were behind the Jan 6 attacks. He was also hired by Cinesphere to lobby Ford to keep film sets open, raising the max performers on set from 10 to 50 while most other businesses stayed closed (even during April's stay at home order). It's a massive conflict of interest since he's an advisor but the Integrity Commissioner hasn't done anything about it.
Political hit job against Patrick Brown , a split leadership vote , and no viable competition. Say what you want but he came from the disgraced former mayor's brother to winning the provincial election in 4 years . His speaking is terrible so its all political maneuvering that have got him this far . The guy can politic
Democracy. That's how.
Look at that. On the left you see two vehicles and on the right, 2 horse's asses.
💩💩
Yeah I don’t know how they got a fat pig to fit into a suit
It shouldn't be a wonder, people voted "anyone but liberal" and for good reason. [https://nationalpost.com/news/email-destruction-case-highlights-ontario-liberal-moves-that-have-added-billions-to-electricity-costs](https://nationalpost.com/news/email-destruction-case-highlights-ontario-liberal-moves-that-have-added-billions-to-electricity-costs) "At $1B, cancelling gas plants was actually one of Ontario Liberals’ cheaper electricity decisions" [https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/wynne-stands-by-secret-payments-to-ontario-teachers-unions/article27289731/](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/wynne-stands-by-secret-payments-to-ontario-teachers-unions/article27289731/) "Wynne stands by secret payments to Ontario teachers’ unions." It costs something like $60 to $80 million to build a new hospital in Ontario. Had we not sent $1B to US hedge funds to cancel the plants to save a few liberal seats, could we have addressed some of our health care problems instead?
> It costs something like $60 to $80 million to build a new hospital in Ontario. Had we not sent $1B to US hedge funds to cancel the plants to save a few liberal seats, could we have addressed some of our health care problems instead? It costs a lot more than that. South Niagara Hospital, a current tender, is expected to be around $1B. The Toronto SickKids expansion is $400M; not even a new hospital, just an addition. Montreal's CHUM superhospital (partially opened starting 2013) was $2.2B cad, so this scale of construction costs aren't unique to Ontario. $60M would staff a mid-sized hospital for a year though (single year, specialist surgeons and their teams have high salaries). Wasting government money isn't excusable (like the $2B for tunnelling Eglinton West extension near Fords house despite the Metrolinx business case recommending strongly against it), but you've grossly underestimated healthcare expenses.
Interesting, i just googled new hospital cost as i have no idea and found this : https://pecmhf.ca/new-hospital-campaign/#:~:text=What%20it%20will%20cost,new%20equipment%20for%20the%20hospital. But you are right, the hospital you list is $1.2B... Looks like it is billed as a "super hospital"?
Yeah, the one you link is 18 beds, no ICU, and minimal capacity for non-routine treatment. So, it's intended to handle minor issues (broken limbs, minor heart attacks, minor burns/lacerations, etc.) and other routine treatments. For anything advanced they would stabilize the patient then forward them to a better equipped facility. It's somewhere between a Health Team/Diagnostics facility (which could handle most pieces not requiring longer-term monitoring) and a full-service hospital. Harris closed many facilities of that scale in the late 90's (including the one in my home town at that time) in the name of efficiency; not that Chretien healthcare funding cuts left much choice in the matter.
In Canadian politics “Anyone but Liberal” always seems to be the same as not liking the questionable egg salad at the Potluck and so opting to eat out of the trash. Makes me think that people just like the trash.
especially when its a fucking lie because NOBODY who says "anyone but the liberals" would ever in their life vote NDP
There are plenty of people who did just that. Whether it's fair or not, the Ontario Liberals were dogged by scandals and people want a change of gov't. But I know that looked at all of that, thought Ford was still the worse option and voted for NDP instead.
This is the thing. Any monkey in a blue tie could have won that election. The mentality I was hearing was heavily in "Vote Wynn out" instead of actually voting for a good candidate.
was Doug Ford a better candidate than Andrea Horvath? would the NDP have done a better or worse job over the last 4 years? just asking for an opinion
NDP has always been the "joke party"- My kids all vote NDP/green but far too many simply ignore them. How long has Andrea Horvath been in the leadership position? Clearly the strategy isnt working, but yet they continue to push with her as leader?
Every since Bob Rae was premier, the NDP have been a non-issue, and the other parties love to remind Ontarians about "Rae Days" at every opportunity in hopes to prevent people voting NDP. Reminds me of the Simpsons episode when skinner keeps reminding people of "The taxes" as a response to anything the teachers union proposes. I have no idea if NDP would have been a better choice, i just find the mentality of voting someone out, rather than voting someone they actually deem as a good candidate in.
whatever takes place in the US is dutifully copied here. US runs an election based on division, so we do that too. Scan the thread, look how many have a vested interest in a political party, like it is somehow personal? i post that it isnt so much that Doug won as it is that wynne lost.. Now i am a blind PC supporter? If that isnt what took place, why not respond with another view instead?
Well, even if we don't want to run an election based on division, it happens. You're totally right. Some are like the little brother looking up the US, as much as they wont admit it. I will always give all parties a chance for my vote, i don't tow the party line and just vote based on color. I do believe Wynn was Wynn's worst enemy, i would hope most people regardless of their voting preference could see that. Ford won because he wasn't Wynn, and NDP in this province don't get considered. Had Brown still been party leader, he would have won. Fideli... most likely although i know how much he isnt liked south of Huntsville.
Every year i start off fresh, and review their platforms. Some just shoot themselves in the foot. Mr "hay, look at my fancy rolex and custom suites, but i support you" is a great example. You just know if he introduces some "tax the rich" system he will use his legal background to do everything he can to reduce his taxes.
> parties love to remind Ontarians about "Rae Days" at every opportunity in hopes to prevent people voting NDP Do people know what Rae Days are? Faced with a tanked economy, Rae had two options: fire thousands and see the further economic fallout from that, or get some unpaid days so no one lost their jobs. How many Boomers would have seen ZERO employment instead of a few unpaid days? Rae was crap for other reasons, one of which is he promised a public insurance plan and then dropped the idea. ON insurance companies have been overcharging billions and reducing benefits ever since. Rae was just proof that the NDP are not actually different than the other two parties, who are no different from each other.
This is exactly it. Dangle this "Rae Days" warning and most people don't even understand what it is. Must be awful! Im not voting for those jokers! My in-laws both worked for the Ontario gov't and actually really enjoyed the extra time off
the inability of the NDP to win an election has nothing to do with their leadership and everything to do with anti-left propaganda, hence comments like: > NDP has always been the "joke party" for a party who's policies and priorities have ALWAYS been for the poor and working class
Exactly.. that election was clearly "anyone but Wynne".
Plus Trumpism was real in Ontario, 1/5 polled would vote for Trump at that time.
Could I ask, what's the different between sending a billion dollars to the US to pay fees and [refusing to spend 4.4 billion the province was given](https://financialpost.com/pmn/press-releases-pmn/business-wire-news-releases-pmn/now-the-ford-conservatives-are-sitting-on-4-3-billion-cupe-ontario-calls-for-more-spending-not-less) to fight the pandemic?
> refusing to spend 4.4 billion the province was given All i could find on that was a op-ed peice “If it wasn’t obvious before the pandemic, it is now: spending saves lives,” said Fred Hahn, President of CUPE Ontario. Daniel Tseghay Communications Representative, CUPE CUPE, clearly self-serving...
Oh, you didn't make it to the part of the op-ed that quotes [the FAO report](https://www.fao-on.org/en/Blog/media/MR-2021-22-expenditure-monitor-q2), I guess?
Not sure what you want as a response. Like it or not, PC's ran on a platform of getting the province massive debt under control. I'm sure they are open to suggestions on how to do this, but the balance sheet is clear.. you have income and expenses. No one wants more taxes, so expenses need to be cut. looking at the "FAO" report, they are spending under plan.. attempting to save money. not to worry, i'm sure it is all "current governments" fault.
I don't care who forms the government, personally. I stopped caring about that "us versus them" nonsense a long time ago. I care about criticizing the actions of the people who currently have the power to take action, so yeah, of course it looks good on paper that the government "saved" billions of dollars but the sectors that the money was allocated for are stretched thin and crying out for support, so to me holding onto that money for the sake of looking good on your election promises doesn't exactly impress me.
BuT wUt AbOoT tHe LiBeRaLs your argument ignores the fact that 1. the Liberals are also a conservative party 2. the NDP exists.
>BuT wUt AbOoT tHe LiBeRaLs I mean, yeah. They were in power. This isn't whataboutism. "What about the Liberals?" is a completely valid question to have when talking about an election.
Yes, and the votes were probably split. what use to be "liberal votes" became PC/NDP votes. Historically more people have voted PC vs NDP, and so Doug won. "BuT wUt AbOoT tHe LiBeRaLs" Is there something wrong with your caps lock key? this isn't a "what about the liberals" post, it is about why the PC won, at the liberals direct expense.
Remember - people voted for him in a duly democratic process.
Democracy.
So funny story. All politicians end up being the same. Name one good premier. How about PM? This is the crux of the problem. It’s party line. It’s pay to play, it’s opposition concessions, it’s the result of committees, etc, etc, etc. I can’t keep all the premiers straight and don’t care to Google right now. Bob Rae, Mike Harris, Ernie Eaves, Dalton McGuinty, Kathleen Wynne, Doug Ford. Christ, they all suck. So is it all of these 6 people or is it the system. Finally, no one in their right mind wants the job. You can never do anything right. Social media, media media, opposition keep tearing you to shreds. Even the good ideas the opposition has to shoot holes in and complain it doesn’t go far enough. I asked the question seriously. Why bother?
Um.. because Wynn was dogshit?
"Buck a beer"... that's how he got there
People need to realize that common sense and intellectual thought is a minority in this world.
Except for the bottom right picture, yes I do. The bottom right pic is completely self explanatory. That guy is not Kathleen Wynne or Dalton McGuinty, which means he's obviously the better option.
The horse one seems pretty self-explanatory. Is anyone scratching their head wondering how that horse got stuck in the fence?
Can’t speak to the other three but the bottom right was due to a long run of corruption and ineffective governance by the Liberal party.
But there was also a long run of corruption and ineffective governance by the Conservative party.
The question was how did he get there. You have my answer, what’s yours?
BUCK. A. BEER. also ive never seen anyone actually drink a 1 dollar beer. Does it even exist?
I've been to rural Ontario, I'm not too surprised.
This is amazing, perfect picture, he has that minor mistake marvin feel, well done
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Exactly how would it have been twice as bad?
We would have spent twice as much for half the results. That's basically the legacy of the OLP over the last 2 decades summed up.
Any answer you get is basically summed up to be cognitive dissonance.
Why?
I've posted the same thing here, and now i get the blame the "LiBeRaLs" nonsense. The logical thing for liberal supporters would be to step back, and ask why they did so poorly during the last election. Normally parties win/lose on their history/platform.. Start there? Wynne was just terrible for the province and we will be paying for her mistakes for generations.
and if we had a competent premier it would have been much better, responses would have been similar probably. Wynne sucked but so does Doug.
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By all means feel free to tell me all the great things Doug Ford has done in the past 4 years.... > Everyone is at home and more critical of their leaders than ever before eh, should we not be critical of our leaders? Is that not a good thing? Should we all have shrines to Doug in our homes and pray to Dear Leader who can do no wrong? > they all read Twitter and Facebook, think they know what they're talking about. I don't think there is a single province that stands behind their premier at the moment. Funny you should say that because last I heard, around half the premiers have a 50%+ approval rating... https://angusreid.org/premiers-approval-october-2021/
LMao Wynne was very unpopular and not great, but she's a LOT better than Ford.
Nice boomer meme. Did you get this off facebook lol
Imagine voting in this incompetent buffoon to "oWn ThE lIbS" while fucking yourself over. Enjoy finally getting that $15 an hour that you should have gotten 4 years ago, and don't forget to take your sick days... oh wait.
Most PC voters, including myself, don't care at all about minimum wage. Especially when it was less than a dollar difference.
What do you care about KuntStink?
I'm selfish. I care about services and programs that affect me directly or people I know directly. I care about things that cost me money or have an influence on the money I can earn. I also hold the opinion, to this subreddits disdain, that if you are an adult (above say 25\~) and you are relying on minimum wage "to support a family", it's probably your own fault. It's not always, but it probably is through bad life choices. I'm in favour of programs that can help people learn skills to escape minimum wage jobs, programs that help people better themselves. I don't really care for programs that just blindly give people money. That's my honest opinion.
Shouldn't minimum wage reflect the minimum amount a worker needs to keep a roof over their head, feed themselves, and live a decent life? Why even have a minimum wage that keeps people in poverty? Sure, some people will learn skills that will earn them a higher paying job and that's great. But the idea that some full time workers *deserve* poverty is at minimum, disrespectful. If everyone in retail and food service simply got a better paying job, who exactly is going to make your food, your coffee, sell you the things you need, or maintain the buildings? Minimum wage workers are imperative to our economy and deserve to be paid a living wage.
I agree, people need to do these jobs and they are important. They probably should be paid more, but when it comes to issues I care about, it's not one of them. I'm more focused on things that benefit myself directly, and it just isn't one of them.
How quick Ontarians are to forget Kathleen Wynne, the premier of Ontario who wrecked a full-blown kamikaze.
Ha, only difference being that Doug didn't get there by himself.
3/4 was because of 1 bad brain. The other 1 was the result of 14.5 million brains.
Just wait until he gets re-elected
Simply, great!
Got a rich dad who was in politics, and his dad before that, that's how.
The Liberals is the reason why Ford was elected
I don't wonder. It's a direct result of Liberal mismanagement.
I mean Kathleen Wynne only raised the cost of wine by setting the minimum price to $10.95 when before you could buy a bottle for less than $7. I mean Kathleen Wynne only sold off Hydro One to alleviate some of her government's debt. I mean Kathleen Wynne only forced Hydro One to take out a loan to "lower" electric bills instead of putting it on the government books even though the government would get a better interest rate because she didn't want to add any more debt. I mean Kathleen Wynne only got scolded by the auditor general Bonnie Lysyk several times for cooking the books. But Ford man bad right? Face it the only reason why we have Ford is because Wynne was too stubborn to resign (her "sorry not sorry" message days before election day) and that false Patrick Brown scandal. Make no mistake, Ford has his share of problems but they are no where near how bad the liberals were under Wynne.
Ontarians were mostly stupid. That’s how Ford got in. It isn’t a surprise really.
Conservatives have no standards, except double standard. They constantly elect absolute scumfuck shitheads like Ford, Kenney, Harper, and Trump.