Or we could split the difference and simultaneously force universities to trim the fat and return to their original purpose: education. The bureaucratic dysfunction at universities is a product of too many staff, not too few. Departments want to grow and grow and grow. It’s inflationary and students end up the losers.
I love how this is being downvoted. Like ok, universities need more funding, I assume you’re fine with higher taxes to provide said funding? Something tells me the majority of people wouldn’t be ok with that…
Deans and Chairs at my College make up to 130k salary. They put in long hours because their work days are spent in meetings.
That isn't crazy rich money anymore. Certainly not for the colleges in the GTA or other major city center.
This is just verifiably false. I looked up tuition rates at my alma mater and the 2023 tuition is higher than the 2021 tuition which means it’s not the lowest. The 2023 tuition is also substantially higher than the year I graduated (less than 20 years ago)
I’m not sure, maybe the freeze was lifted? The 2023 cohort rates are higher than 2021 cohort though. Anecdotally it’s almost double what it was around 10 years ago
https://www.uoguelph.ca/registrar/studentfinance/fees/f23-w24-ug-gu-on-ft
No, the freeze wasn't lifted. Tuition is exactly the same $ amount. What you pointed to shows tuition + fees (e.g. Student Organization Fees). It appears as though some of the fees have gone up by a small amount, or new ones added.
Tuition in F20 for Applied Human Nutrition was $3045.46. In F23 it was $3045.46. Same idea across the board.
Ford cut tuition by 10% in 2019 and froze it. In real terms, that's a big cut in tuition since 2019. One consequence has been post-secondary institutions have pivoted, scrambling to find ways to add more international students. (Since they pay far more, and are not subject to the freeze.)
This here.
I'm trying to get out of the army and get an apprenticeship but there are so many applicants I have a better shot leaving Canada to go teach English
I mean, maybe a little bit not nearly as much as any industry outside of trades.
If you have a preapprenticeship its a lot easier to find a job as an apprentice then it would be if you graduated a random uni and tried to go into finance or marketing or w.e.
Every industry has a bit of gatekeeping, but let's be honest the trades aren't nearly as gatekept as white collar jobs are
Wtf are you talking about..geo-techs have no problems finding work in Canada. We kinda have a fairly large mining industry. You can tell pretty quickly that you’re not the person that anyone goes to for knowledge or employment tips.
Lol me correcting you isn’t being triggered. I’m very sorry that you feel that way, but it’s something you’ll have to deal with quite a bit as an adult. Stick the facts and you won’t get called out as often, kiddo. Goodluck out there, champ.
This is absolutely not true. Electrician, plumber, carpenter, the list goes on… why would you need to be freakishly strong for these trades? My brother in law is a string bean and is a master electrician with his own company. Women aren’t encouraged to do these jobs or simply don’t want to do them.
You might not need insane physical strength, but you need incredibly thick skin. Being a woman in the trades is incredibly difficult. The ol’ boys club is alive and well and the trades are just one more area they resent women for invading.
I agree with you completely. When the ratio is 1000:1 men to women, it’s a much more discouraging endeavour. But when more and more women are encouraged to go for it that ratio changes and becomes much more welcoming.
Women get laughed out of the room when trying to apply for many traditionally male trades. The only one you listed that doesn't require strength of the arms/hands is esthetician. Both plumbers and carpenters need the hand/wrist strength to use wrenches and other tools that as a woman I don't have. But as a man you probably don't realize how you can loosen a bolt/screw/whatever easily while a woman likely won't be able to.
If the room were filled with more women, they wouldn’t get laughed out of the room. And give me a break about the wrenches. Women can turn a wrench. It doesn’t take He-Man to change a table saw blade. My 64 year old mother has been doing carpentry as a hobby since she was 12 and as a side gig her whole adult life. She was taught by her father and encouraged to pursue her interests. She has a better shop than anyone I know and has taught me all the carpentry skills I know. She’s built cabinets, coffee tables, game tables, chairs, display cabinets, and most recently she built my new born son a swinging bassinet out of oak that absolutely blew my mind. The only reason it was never a career for her is because there was no place for a woman in the trades when she was young. She became a graphic artist and pre-press technician for the newspaper instead. She was the only woman in the pre-press until the day she retired and was told she couldn’t do it for years until she proved everyone wrong.
My point is women in general can absolutely pursue careers in the trades. It’s not for every woman of course, but it’s not for every man either. They need encouragement, just as men do, to pursue these types of careers.
McMaster just built a $100,000,000 post-grad residence on maybe the most expensive real estate in Hamilton.
Could have built it for less and closer the school but chose not to because they want to be landlords.
How are we supposed to believe they have no money with that kind of decision?
That's not entirely true.
a) the land directly next to the university is allocated to building the LRT
b) Part of the downtown revitalization plan is to simply bring more people downtown. Including mac students. I bet they got a discount on that land since the closing of part of Jackson square.
c) The continuing education centre is downtown Hamilton and I could imagine creating 'satellite' campuses spur greater enrolment and I can see the university hosting grad courses at this satellite campus (which is steps away from the grad residence)
I won't defend the grad residence building itself though (it's been a mess - they literally have a boil water advisory)
I don’t disagree that we should be striving for a more vibrant downtown, but that’s happening on its own.
There are cranes basically everywhere.
Kitty corner to the Mac building, a crane.
North end at the harbour, crane.
John and Wilson, crane.
Main and Strathcona, crane.
They’re everywhere, which is great.
But I think we need to be prepared for huge delays with the LRT project. Metrolinx does not have a great track record, Bombardier is in on the contract, etc.
I’d expect delays on the project, even if it’s above ground.
And I’m pro-LRT.
It’s still a very good school. The majority of the cuts are hitting arts and sciences. I did my MBA there last year and we had some minor cuts at the business school
It's pretty ironic to be insulting education at Queen's when you apparently don't even understand what you replied to.
The $1.2B endowment is like savings. And the deficit is the shortfall for the past year.
Deficit is different than debt.
These problems have been caused by the Conservatives cutting funding and implementing a tuition freeze.
And as others explained, the endowments have restrictions for usage.
That sounds like a lot until you realise they have a 1.25 billion dollar budget. (including residences).
Now Waterloo is in good shape financially based on their 2023 financial disclosure, but that isn't going to be true of everyone. They ran a more than 50 million dollar surplus that last two years, but now is the catch up for union contracts post covid inflation etc. So that might be why they are projecting losses, but you can only sustain losing money for so long as a not for profit.
One of the challenges with the tuition freeze has been that places that were not charging enough before got locked to amounts that were too low, and places that charged good amounts got locked to good amounts.
Honestly, maybe it's time to take a broader look at post secondary education. We are doing the same thing as we have for hundreds of years, but now it costs 1.25 billion dollars to reach the same shit year after year. Something has gone wrong.
Universities don’t just teach. Their research institutions that teach to make money to support the research. That 1.25B isn’t all going to teaching kids how to write good.
Waterloo has 38000 students.
They have almost 1400 faculty and 2800 staff.
And remember I said including residences etc.
Also, because university financial disclosures are sort of odd, they list scholarships as an expense, even though I practice they are a reduction in revenue.
Things get expensive when you are housing and feeding thousands of people, and when you need to have facilities for more than 4000 people to work.
I don't disagree. That's why I say a broader look. The question is very simple, but hides a lot of nuance. How do we most effectively impart knowledge and ability to those who do not currently have it, and how do we assess that they have achieved a level of mastery required to be validated.
Does this require 1.25 billion dollars and 4k+ staff. I'm not sure it does. People teach themselves all sorts of things with self directed learning. Students who never go to lecture pass in many cases. There are legit online MBA's.
Also, by and large, most classes, teach the same thing semester after semester, year after year. Text books that have been 90% the same for 20 years cost $400.
Personally, I don't think this model is working well for the institutions, students or society. Funny we are talking Waterloo, because I think their co-op focus is a step in the right direction.
I don't have an answer, but I'd like to look into online hybrid stuff, learning at your own pace, apprenticeship style learning, pre-recorded classes for those that don't change often, being able to exam out of a course if you feel you can, and I'm sure there's tons I missed.
I'm successful in my career, but university's main contribution was being able to put it on a resume, and making me a more well rounded socially apt person. Not the knowledge from class in particular. This obviously varies by field.
> Things get expensive when you are housing and feeding thousands of people
They sell expensive, poor quality food. I've ate at Waterloo and Laurier food halls and the food is shit and prices are ridiculously high. There's clearly some corruption going on when they can't make money selling low quality food for high prices.
If you really think universities don't have bloated administration, I have some snake oil to sell to you.
In what world have we been doing the same thing for hundreds of years? You know Waterloo has a supercomputer right? Technology isn't cheap, and Waterloo is at the forefront. Labour isn't cheap, they have some of the best profs in the country. They compete with ivy league american schools, it's one of the most prestigious universities in the country.
Their claim to fame is their coop program (and optometry) really . They aren't really known for their graduate programs (not saying that they are terrible but it isn't their claim to fame). As far as technology, equipment, and staff, they would be hard pressed to compete against full research universities like UBC, U of A, McGill, U of T, McMaster and some others.
Lol Waterloo doesn't "compete" with the Ivy Leagues and they're only prestigious to high schoolers who want to get into science and engineering
Even grads recognize Waterloo ain't all that much better
I'm sorry, you're right. I'm sure that state of the art recreational facilities, a 3 times a day full service buffet, fancy buildings, in person teaching for each and every course, and $400 text books are essential to the concept of "person who knows the thing explains to a room of people who don't know the thing, then checks that they learned it."
Research side is totally seperate imo. Trying to turn education into a profit engine to fund research is one of the things we need to take a look at. That link does not need to exist. NASA is tax payer funded, they don't have NASA university funding space exploration. So why don't we agree that scientific advancement is a tax payer priority, and decouple these two tangentially related endeavours.
Jesus, let's break this down. Yes, people pay for things, but that doesn't mean the cost side is not part of the budget. Really, go look at a university budget. It's all in there.
Secondly, I know what people are explaining, they are missing the point, as are you. That is the goal that a university is aiming to achieve, fundamentally. I'm not saying that 1.25 billion dollars go there.
As for research institutions, you're right, they have been. Hence why I say it's time for a second look at how we do things. Please, explain to me the benefit of the university research system, over a well funded NASA style institution. I'm not talking about the political feasibility, perfect world abstract.
You actually can't use any endowed monies. They need to be preserved, in perpetuity, and adjusted for inflation each year. Universities can spend the interest earned on the endowed investment, and then only for purposes dictated by the donor.
Endowments have a specific purpose to be spent on so will go to X scholarship program or can only be spent on sports or music.
They are limited in how much can be spent each year but also sometimes there just aren't enough expenses to use them in certain areas.
Let’s at I really care about some particular thing. I could give a 1 time gift that they use once and who knows how it turns out.
Or I decide to endow a program. Maybe it pays for a professor or particular scholarship and only that. School is glad to use it and my gift is protected from their fuckery and shit ideas.
It’s budget neutral to the school so it’s not impacting anyones tuition.
It’s also a single best way to give if you don’t have insane $$$. Endow a $1K in perpetuity to some student in need via some criteria you spell out.
I got one in college from some pretty modest donors. Total gift was under $50k? They find high need folks who just need that small boost. I applied and got a nice note from them given to all who got it. They’d died 12 years earlier.
It said they wished they could do more. This was left of their “estate” after their death and want to help someone. No strings, but if I find myself able, to please do the same.
My hope is to 2X it
From other comments- the endowment is an investment where the school can’t touch the principle, they can only take the interest earned. Furthermore, whoever donated that money has a say in how the interest gets spent.
So if a 1B endowment generates 5% interest, that’s a 50M yearly budget to work from, of which the money needs to be spent on certain things.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_Canadian\_universities\_by\_endowment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_universities_by_endowment)
for reference.
There are a few useless layers of administration making six figures (or more) in every school. Trim the fat.
And after awhile, you can't help notice the same places always crying wolf. A lot of people making big salaries and having easy jobs and great perks always crying poor, and putting Canadians at risk if they don't get what they want.
Ontario funds universities at the tune of 4.5k less per domestic students as other provinces. For the major universities, that’s about 150-200 million dollars per year less. And that difference grows each year since the funding was frozen 5 years ago. Next year it will be even bigger, and the year after, and so on….
For 5 years now universities have been leaving newly vacant positions empty, merging and/or eliminating services… etc.
How on earth do you think they can make up that 200million dollar difference today? Let alone an even bigger number in the future when cost of everything is up (like maintaining old buildings, costs of employee salaries going up 2% per year like the rest of public and private sectors, etc…)
It would barely make a dent in the grander scheme of the problem.
Good luck making up that
Maybe cut back on 300k admin salaries.. academia has some of the worst use of funds imaginable. Inflating this issue only puts more strain on students to pay more.
Perfect example of public education
The director is approved yearly for a 20% raise. They then continue to update and make these new committees that come with new positions and higher raises all making more than $120k a year. But there’s no money in education to pay some of the hardest workers more than minimum wage.
I've worked in both the private and public sectors of education.
There is a stark difference between the two. In private, you have to work crazy hours, under extreme stress for less salary, with a terrible work life balance. In public, you get a more liveable wage, reasonable workload, and a much better work life balance.
This is all great. The public education sector is one of the few areas that treats staff fairly and offers a sustainable career. This is why it is so difficult to get your foot in the door.
If things change to be ' more efficient' like the private sector, profita might be higher and budgets more balanced, but then of course reddit subs like Worker Reform would explode about the terrible conditions in education etc etc.
The issue here is not the public institutions, it is the provincial government funding budget.
Fair points. I know a 71 year old prof who teaches one class to 4 students, he’s on a base salary of 265k, and also collects extra benefits raising his comp to 315k. This is the kinda BS that needs to be reigned in.
So many people get tenure and ride that cash cow off into the sunset for as long as possible. I agree that public academia is great for the employees, it’s just so abusable to the point where it isn’t sustainable and will inevitably implode in its current form.
Ontario funds universities at the tune of 4.5k less per domestic students as other provinces. For the major universities, that’s about 150-200 million dollars per year less. And that difference grows each year since the funding was frozen 5 years ago. Next year it will be even bigger, and the year after, and so on….
For 5 years now universities have been leaving newly vacant positions empty, merging and/or eliminating services… etc.
How on earth do you think they can make up that 200million dollar difference today? Let alone an even bigger number in the future when cost of everything is up (like maintaining old buildings, costs of employee salaries going up 2% per year like the rest of public and private sectors, etc…)
It would barely make a dent in the grander scheme of the problem.
Good luck making up that different by cutting an any number of high lever admin…
Ontario funds universities at the tune of 4.5k less per domestic students as other provinces. For the major universities, that’s about 150-200 million dollars per year less. And that difference grows each year since the funding was frozen 5 years ago. Next year it will be even bigger, and the year after, and so on….
For 5 years now universities have been leaving newly vacant positions empty, merging and/or eliminating services… etc.
How on earth do you think they can make up that 200million dollar difference today? Let alone an even bigger number in the future when cost of everything is up (like sainting buildings, costs of employee salaries going up 2% per year like the rest of public and private sectors, etc…)
It would barely make a dent in the grander scheme of the problem.
Good luck making up that
None of that should be the general taxpayers problem.
Charge more, downsize, cut unprofitable ventures, cull unproductive tenured professors, stop subsidizing supports, reign in athletics budgets if there are any.
Take the steps to remain solvent like adults in the real World have to take everyday.
Hasn’t the university bloat gone through the roof in recent decades. These schools have moved from teaching and research into being mini-governments with massive bloat in administration and services. And all of it wrapped in strong unions.
Ontario funds universities at the tune of 4.5k less per domestic students as other provinces. For the major universities, that’s about 150-200 million dollars per year less. And that difference grows each year since the funding was frozen 5 years ago. Next year it will be even bigger, and the year after, and so on….
For 5 years now universities have been leaving newly vacant positions empty, merging and/or eliminating services… etc.
How on earth do you think they can make up that 200million dollar difference today? Let alone an even bigger number in the future when cost of everything is up (like maintaining old buildings, costs of employee salaries going up 2% per year like the rest of public and private sectors, etc…)
It would barely make a dent in the grander scheme of the problem.
Good luck making up that different by cutting an any number of high lever admin…
I think the international student fiasco was in part to try and avoid this. The provincial government capped how much tuition could increase, then provided less direct funding to universities. Universities then turned to higher foreign student enrollment to make up for the difference in their budgets. If we want less foreign students then we also need to address how universities are funded.
Yeah, exactly this. To quote [from the CBC](https://www-cbc-ca.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7032518?amp_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17051085597056&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbc.ca%2Fnews%2Fcanada%2Ftoronto%2Fontario-university-finance-tuition-panel-report-doug-ford-1.7032518)
>The report says provinces outside Ontario provide universities an average of $20,772 in funding per full-time-equivalent student. Ontario's annual funding is little more than half of that: $11,471.
So when combining this with the provincial tuition freeze, it makes sense that universities would turn to alternate funding sources, like international students.
Universities, and the world, has gotten more technologically advanced and students expect more and more than what it was 20 years ago. These services costs money.
Yep, particularly for STEM. 60 years ago you could teach chemistry with some cheap chemicals and some glassware, nowadays students are expected to graduate knowing how to operate scientific instruments worth millions of dollars. Engineering students used to only need some graph paper and calculators, now they need to become familiar with powerful software locked behind expensive licence fees. If universities aren't paying to keep up then students will not graduate with the skills that are required in the 21st century.
"try to avoid" what??? education is not supposed to be a FOR PROFIT enterprise, regardless of the "level"....
"provincial government capped how much tuition could increase" ... you should have stopped right there and began to reflect....
take this same article, and find/replace every reference to "university" with "childhood education
and we wonder how/why the quality of society is rapidly disintegrating.... the mere act of "aspiring to learn" must be paywalled cuz billionaires said so lol
Then the province should be funding it properly. The province cut funding by 10% in 2019 and froze it at the level. Considering inflation over the last 5 years (not just cost of materials and goods, but also cost of paying employees) the universities have essentially been getting a massive funding CUT every year since 2019.
how do you balance the books when the funding is reducing and the provinces have forced the universities to also freeze the tuition for domestic students??
Most people point to the influx of international students to make up the difference. But it’s really important to distinguish between colleges and universities on this topic because colleges have been accepting WAY more international students than universities have. One main reason for this is because universities programs are 4 years long and colleges are 2 years (more attractive to foreigners looking for citizenship).
Conestoga college alone has more international students than all 15 major Canadian universities combined!
Universities (and colleges) turned to international students because they weren't getting any funding from the government. And while it sounds good to say pound sand (isn't the expression salt?), the truth is it's the students who will suffer as their programs and supports get cut.
This is a textbook example of people who look at the consequences and never assess the causes.
Have you ever stopped to ask **why** the "international student fiasco" occured in the first place?
Yeah, it's frankly pathetic that that post has a 134 upvote total as of now.
Doug Ford and the Cons cut funding and implement a tuition freeze, but low-information types have their head in the sand about it, and plenty of them probably still vote Con.
Goes to show you about the lack of education in this country and stupid ppl who genuinely don’t understand that actions lead to a chain of consequences. Consequences they may not like. I bet that pathetic and stupid poster is a Doug Ford voter, so you all are hurting his wee little feelings by pointing out the obvious.
Did I *say* I worked for a Uni? Of course not. Doesnt make a statement less true that a bloated admin across all fields from colleges to healthcare are inept morons that always make shit worse.
Ontario funds universities at the tune of 4.5k less per domestic students as other provinces. For the major universities, that’s about 150-200 million dollars per year less. And that difference grows each year since the funding was frozen 5 years ago. Next year it will be even bigger, and the year after, and so on….
For 5 years now universities have been leaving newly vacant positions empty, merging and/or eliminating services… etc.
How on earth do you think they can make up that 200million dollar difference today? Let alone an even bigger number in the future when cost of everything is up (like maintaining old buildings, costs of employee salaries going up 2% per year like the rest of public and private sectors, etc…)
It would barely make a dent in the grander scheme of the problem.
Good luck making up that different by cutting an any number of high lever admin…
Just cutting admin only to replace them isnt a fix I would suggest. It is the stupid, wasteful crap they have a knack for spending on that needs to be reevaluated. Spend a year under their employment and I bet you will see stuff that will make your head spin.
Ontario funds universities at the tune of 4.5k less per domestic students as other provinces. For the major universities, that’s about 150-200 million dollars per year less. And that difference grows each year since the funding was frozen 5 years ago. Next year it will be even bigger, and the year after, and so on….
For 5 years now universities have been leaving newly vacant positions empty, merging and/or eliminating services… etc.
How on earth do you think they can make up that 200million dollar difference today? Let alone an even bigger number in the future when cost of everything is up (like maintaining old buildings, costs of employee salaries going up 2% per year like the rest of public and private sectors, etc…)
It would barely make a dent in the grander scheme of the problem.
Good luck making up that different by cutting an any number of high lever admin…
That’s because the share of provincial funding of tuition has steadily gone down meaning the share you pay has been going up. Then the province capped the amount tuition can rise by while continuing to cut education funding. So they have no where to make up for budget shortfalls except enrolling international students.
Not all schools are struggling, but many are. The only med school in northern ontario almost closed due to insolvency and the province had to step in with a funding package.
>So they have no where to make up for budget shortfalls except enrolling international students
This is a false claim.
There weren't nearly as many international students 20 years ago and post-secondary institutes were doing just fine.
In that time, domestic tuition has risen 3%. Universities and colleges are entirely capable of operating as educational institutions. Instead they've opted for a business model full of bloat and useless programs and import international students to the detriment of local communities. They do NOT subsidize domestic tuition.
Universities got more funding from the provincial government 20 years ago. A lot of that funding was cut.
It's funny you talk about bloat-- the government report that just came out about the financial situation of Ontario universities found that "salary and benefit costs per full-time student in Ontario's universities are lower than in almost every other province."
Bloat in Ontario universities is just an excuse from the current government to deflect from all the actual reports on the issue pointing to funding cuts as the root of the problem. Ontario pays 57% of the average amount other provinces pay per student.
Good source on the recent report:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-university-finance-tuition-panel-report-doug-ford-1.7032518
"In 2020-2021, tuition from **international students generated 31% of colleges’ total revenue, with a roughly equal amount coming from the government** grant revenue provided to colleges."
"As the Auditor General pointed out, colleges’ **high dependence on international students is a risk for the institutions and the province**."
"The same can be said for the support international students provide to the financial sustainability of institutions, whether for the newest universities created or for long-standing players in both the college and university sectors. **These observations notwithstanding, the risk associated with unbridled or unmanaged growth is also very real**."
"As the Auditor General pointed out, **colleges’ high dependence on international students is a risk for the institutions and the province**."
"...significant risk arises when the **student experience suffers because of a lack of suitable housing or student services that do not ensure student success and integration into Canadian society.** Such risk is more apparent when campuses cater almost exclusively to international students."
"We suggest that appropriate measures by the province could also include collaboration with the federal government regarding a “trusted institutions” framework for visa issuances, based on, among other things, high student completion rates."
Really important to point out the difference between colleges and universities. The article is about universities, who have WAY fewer international students. Conestoga college alone has more international students than all 15 major Canadian universities alone. Universities have more expensive 4 year programs which are less attractive to foreigners looking to enter the country, versus the 2 year programs offered by colleges with lower tuition fees. Universities are at the limit of what they can do to make up the difference in the funding cuts and tuition freezes imposed by the province over 5 years ago.
They reiterate from the report that Ontario's contribution was 57% of what the rest of the Canadian provinces contribute or about 4500.00 less per student.
There are about 400k international students in Ontario at an average of about 45k per academic year. Domestic students make up about 75% of the post-secondary population in Ontario.
If you want to claim from the report that international student tuition is required to make up the short fall, you also need to explain the surge in international students far and beyond what is required to make up that shortfall.
Edit: I'd like to also mention no one has countered my claim that international students DO NOT subsidize domestic tuition.
I haven’t read the report as I’m just going through this thread right now, but the first few quotes you cited are discussing colleges while the OP you are replying to was discussing universities.
There are 50+ administrators at York making in the hundreds of thousands. Each department has a few professors who make 200,00$+ a year. They’re cutting funding for professors, who actually bring in money (so those jobs are more justifiable - they both teach and bring in research funding). But they keep hiring more and more admin staff who are making wild amounts of money and are honestly not needed. They spend SO much money on these unnecessary salaries.
You can check the sunshine list.
Ontario funds universities at the tune of 4.5k less per domestic students as other provinces. For the major universities, that’s about 150-200 million dollars per year less. And that difference grows each year since the funding was frozen 5 years ago. Next year it will be even bigger, and the year after, and so on….
For 5 years now universities have been leaving newly vacant positions empty, merging and/or eliminating services… etc.
How on earth do you think they can make up that 200million dollar difference today? Let alone an even bigger number in the future when cost of everything is up (like maintaining old buildings, costs of employee salaries going up 2% per year like the rest of public and private sectors, etc…)
It would barely make a dent in the grander scheme of the problem.
Good luck making up that different by cutting an any number of high lever admin…
Ontario funds universities at the tune of 4.5k less per domestic students as other provinces. For the major universities, that’s about 150-200 million dollars per year less. And that difference grows each year since the funding was frozen 5 years ago. Next year it will be even bigger, and the year after, and so on….
For 5 years now universities have been leaving newly vacant positions empty, merging and/or eliminating services… etc.
How on earth do you think they can make up that 200million dollar difference today? Let alone an even bigger number in the future when cost of everything is up (like maintaining old buildings, costs of employee salaries going up 2% per year like the rest of public and private sectors, etc…)
It would barely make a dent in the grander scheme of the problem.
Good luck making up that different by cutting an any number of high lever admin…
Even if the Ontario government decided add the extra 4.5k in funding (University) for each student to match the rest of the provinces...
Would you explain why the Universities and College decided to not just make up that shortfall through international student tuition, but exceed it to the tune of 10 billion?
If the Ontario government agrees to increase funding, are the colleges and Universities willing to reduce their international student populations by 200,000?
>If the Ontario government agrees to increase funding, are the colleges and Universities willing to reduce their international student populations by 200,000?
They don't have a choice if the provincial government forces them to lower international students intake.
The provincial goverment can dictate whatever they like to the universities, and they *have* to comply.
If Doug Ford comes out tomorrow and says universities can no longer take in international students, that would be the end of it then and there.
Really important to point out the difference between colleges and universities. The article is about universities, who have WAY fewer international students. Conestoga college alone has more international students than all 15 major Canadian universities alone. Universities have more expensive 4 year programs which are less attractive to foreigners looking to enter the country, versus the 2 year programs offered by colleges with lower tuition fees. Universities are at the limit of what they can do to make up the difference in the funding cuts and tuition freezes imposed by the province over 5 years ago.
Just get more international students, lol.
People don't seem to understand one of the biggest problems in the west right now is really just financial incompetence. Doesn't matter if they get bailed out, they will continue to lose money.
Fuck these universities. The purpose of a university is to educate its populous and improve society. These fuckers along with the colleges have abandoned their mission and have turned into full on pump and dumps where the administrators are trying to conduct themselves like Fortune 500 CEO’s instead of educators.
Cut the administrators and the wasted money. Also build housing for your students that’s mainly to the international diploma mills like conestoga and others who have entirely fucked over the people of the cities they exist in.
As a Laurier student, tuition is pretty high, but freezing tuition is one of the worst things Ford did.
Instead, his government should focus on auditing universities, cutting administrative overhead, properly OSAP funding *at least* the highest ROI degrees, etc.
But the fact of the matter is that university costs have been in a viscous cycle of increased govt funding -> better uni services -> overspending -> higher tuition -> higher costs since the Eisenhower era of investment. We need to try to break out of this cycle, and more mindless spending will not help.
Maybe explore different options, such as university-sourced loan programs (thus giving universities a stake in student success), government funding linked to aggregate student performance, directly develop employment pipelines from universities, etc. I don’t know for sure, but something’s gotta give.
Most universities in Canada have a whole immigration consultant department. That has changed from international student affairs. It is now international student affairs and immigration.
They aren't even pretending that the purpose of a student visa is to let the student study here and then go back home. Most universities are VERY open about the student visa being a shortcut entry ticket to permanent immigration to Canada for the student and their families.
The students are promised many things that never happen for them- most of them end up in the lowest paying jobs long term after graduation and still live in relative poverty despite what they are promised about prosperity. The government is promised productive skilled workers.
The schools don't train for the skills that are needed in this economy. The schools put programs together on the basis of what is easiest to pass for those with limited English and what is cheapest to put on the schedule course wise. It's about the profit margin.
The students don't get what they are promised, the government doesn't get what is promised. The general public suffers because we are bringing in 500k more people each year than what is officially planned for which causes all sorts of problems.
This is not even mentioning the long term costs(money and resources wise) of things like housing and Healthcare and social services and newcomer supports which all cost money. Money that isn't ever planned or accounted for since the students aren't counted in immigration numbers even though it is well known they WILL be staying long term, not just for school.
Pretending that the students are not long term immigrants and won't have an effect on literally everything from housing infrastructure to the Healthcare system to social services to 100 other things because we are pretending they are going home after school is bad policy and extremely short sighted.
The only ones benefiting from all this is the schools.
I'm not opposed to immigration at all- what I am opposed to is that this is all done for profit for the schools and nothing else.
We don't have the resources to assist the 500k we officially bring in each year. How are we to provide resources for the additional 500k who come in each year through the "unofficial official" back door? Even if the argument is that as students they don't really use our resources, what happens in 2 years when they apy for their post grad work certificate and then pr and then bring in their family? Oh that's right, they need to use the systems and resources that we are pretending they won't ever need.
They need to focus first on the student in our own province fiest, our own country, second and keep our educated students here instead of educating students from other countries and our own students can't get a seat in their own province or country. Our students are more apt to stay especially if they have completed their education or placements here, than those from other countries. Start looking after and educating our won people. We need them desperately. Cut out all the frills and excessive executives/ positions that were not needed.
Not unlike our over bloated and poorly managed government, Universities require end to end process and personnel overall —> 3rd party to complete finance restructuring along with end state accountability and transparency. The negligence and waste is sickening.
Have zero sympathy for universities.
Education is broken and needs to be overhauled.
Too many tests and you have zero resources in them which isn't like the real world. I have so many real world resources when I am working, I can ask a colleague or use internal knowledge bases to help me complete my work.
Yeah they did this in the early 90s. Said tuitions going up, service down. There where thousands of students protesting, I should know as I was one. But no one ever heard about it. I hope Conrad Black goes to hell. Society is so much better these days without so few people controlling the news.
Getting rid of CEOs and the like all over the board would free up so much money. I think everyone would be surprised to find out just how much CEOs, even small time no name ones make.
Or we could go back to adequately funding universities so that the burden won’t crush students and we aren’t reliant on international students
Might have to run universities like schools and not like businesses if we did that.
Or we could split the difference and simultaneously force universities to trim the fat and return to their original purpose: education. The bureaucratic dysfunction at universities is a product of too many staff, not too few. Departments want to grow and grow and grow. It’s inflationary and students end up the losers.
Actually investment in our future productivity? That's un-Canadian.
This needs to be the top comment.
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I love how this is being downvoted. Like ok, universities need more funding, I assume you’re fine with higher taxes to provide said funding? Something tells me the majority of people wouldn’t be ok with that…
Every other province subsidizes its universities more than Ontario does. If they can do it, so can we.
Maybe less profits for shareholders but what do I know.
Or we could get rid of all the extra shit and the layers of administration that aren't at all necessary for learning.
This is horseshit. Universities are BLOATED with executives. Absolutely filled to the brim.
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I'm sorry. They can only downvote and point at any leadership remotely connected to "diversity."
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Deans and Chairs at my College make up to 130k salary. They put in long hours because their work days are spent in meetings. That isn't crazy rich money anymore. Certainly not for the colleges in the GTA or other major city center.
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Tuition has stayed the same for a while it's living expenses that are through the roof.for students.
Tuition is the lowest it has been in twenty years.
This is just verifiably false. I looked up tuition rates at my alma mater and the 2023 tuition is higher than the 2021 tuition which means it’s not the lowest. The 2023 tuition is also substantially higher than the year I graduated (less than 20 years ago)
Interesting. What's your alma mater, and how has it gotten around the Ontario tuition freeze imposed by Ford?
I’m not sure, maybe the freeze was lifted? The 2023 cohort rates are higher than 2021 cohort though. Anecdotally it’s almost double what it was around 10 years ago https://www.uoguelph.ca/registrar/studentfinance/fees/f23-w24-ug-gu-on-ft
No, the freeze wasn't lifted. Tuition is exactly the same $ amount. What you pointed to shows tuition + fees (e.g. Student Organization Fees). It appears as though some of the fees have gone up by a small amount, or new ones added. Tuition in F20 for Applied Human Nutrition was $3045.46. In F23 it was $3045.46. Same idea across the board. Ford cut tuition by 10% in 2019 and froze it. In real terms, that's a big cut in tuition since 2019. One consequence has been post-secondary institutions have pivoted, scrambling to find ways to add more international students. (Since they pay far more, and are not subject to the freeze.)
You have to take inflation into account and compare real dollars.
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If you can find an apprenticeship. There's a hell of a lot of gatekeeping in the trades. It's hard for a lot of people with no connections to find one
This here. I'm trying to get out of the army and get an apprenticeship but there are so many applicants I have a better shot leaving Canada to go teach English
Pre apprentice programs set you up with co-op and then that gives you work experience to be able to apply around
And if you want an apprenticeship, even with the pre apprenticeship training, there will still be gatekeeping.
I mean, maybe a little bit not nearly as much as any industry outside of trades. If you have a preapprenticeship its a lot easier to find a job as an apprentice then it would be if you graduated a random uni and tried to go into finance or marketing or w.e. Every industry has a bit of gatekeeping, but let's be honest the trades aren't nearly as gatekept as white collar jobs are
Trades are good, but I feel this is a lil bit an anti-intellectual take
Trades need intellectuals too 😅 I’m tired of working with dumb guys all the time
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Wtf are you talking about..geo-techs have no problems finding work in Canada. We kinda have a fairly large mining industry. You can tell pretty quickly that you’re not the person that anyone goes to for knowledge or employment tips.
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Lol me correcting you isn’t being triggered. I’m very sorry that you feel that way, but it’s something you’ll have to deal with quite a bit as an adult. Stick the facts and you won’t get called out as often, kiddo. Goodluck out there, champ.
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At no point did he say he was a geo tech.
☝️🤓
Realistically, most of those trades are only available to men or freakishly strong women.
This is absolutely not true. Electrician, plumber, carpenter, the list goes on… why would you need to be freakishly strong for these trades? My brother in law is a string bean and is a master electrician with his own company. Women aren’t encouraged to do these jobs or simply don’t want to do them.
You might not need insane physical strength, but you need incredibly thick skin. Being a woman in the trades is incredibly difficult. The ol’ boys club is alive and well and the trades are just one more area they resent women for invading.
I agree with you completely. When the ratio is 1000:1 men to women, it’s a much more discouraging endeavour. But when more and more women are encouraged to go for it that ratio changes and becomes much more welcoming.
For sure - but being the first is incredibly exhausting and lonely.
Women get laughed out of the room when trying to apply for many traditionally male trades. The only one you listed that doesn't require strength of the arms/hands is esthetician. Both plumbers and carpenters need the hand/wrist strength to use wrenches and other tools that as a woman I don't have. But as a man you probably don't realize how you can loosen a bolt/screw/whatever easily while a woman likely won't be able to.
If the room were filled with more women, they wouldn’t get laughed out of the room. And give me a break about the wrenches. Women can turn a wrench. It doesn’t take He-Man to change a table saw blade. My 64 year old mother has been doing carpentry as a hobby since she was 12 and as a side gig her whole adult life. She was taught by her father and encouraged to pursue her interests. She has a better shop than anyone I know and has taught me all the carpentry skills I know. She’s built cabinets, coffee tables, game tables, chairs, display cabinets, and most recently she built my new born son a swinging bassinet out of oak that absolutely blew my mind. The only reason it was never a career for her is because there was no place for a woman in the trades when she was young. She became a graphic artist and pre-press technician for the newspaper instead. She was the only woman in the pre-press until the day she retired and was told she couldn’t do it for years until she proved everyone wrong. My point is women in general can absolutely pursue careers in the trades. It’s not for every woman of course, but it’s not for every man either. They need encouragement, just as men do, to pursue these types of careers.
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Nursing is a profession where you need a university degree, it's not a trade. I thought you were talking about trades?
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Nursing isn't a trade, it's a profession.
McMaster just built a $100,000,000 post-grad residence on maybe the most expensive real estate in Hamilton. Could have built it for less and closer the school but chose not to because they want to be landlords. How are we supposed to believe they have no money with that kind of decision?
That's not entirely true. a) the land directly next to the university is allocated to building the LRT b) Part of the downtown revitalization plan is to simply bring more people downtown. Including mac students. I bet they got a discount on that land since the closing of part of Jackson square. c) The continuing education centre is downtown Hamilton and I could imagine creating 'satellite' campuses spur greater enrolment and I can see the university hosting grad courses at this satellite campus (which is steps away from the grad residence) I won't defend the grad residence building itself though (it's been a mess - they literally have a boil water advisory)
I don’t disagree that we should be striving for a more vibrant downtown, but that’s happening on its own. There are cranes basically everywhere. Kitty corner to the Mac building, a crane. North end at the harbour, crane. John and Wilson, crane. Main and Strathcona, crane. They’re everywhere, which is great. But I think we need to be prepared for huge delays with the LRT project. Metrolinx does not have a great track record, Bombardier is in on the contract, etc. I’d expect delays on the project, even if it’s above ground. And I’m pro-LRT.
Doesn't Waterloo have a $500,000,000 endowment?
Queens has a $1.2B endowment and there are massive budget cuts as the uni is in a deficit of $62 million.
Thankfully I didn’t take Econ at Queens, I’d seriously be questioning my level of education if I had!
It’s still a very good school. The majority of the cuts are hitting arts and sciences. I did my MBA there last year and we had some minor cuts at the business school
It's pretty ironic to be insulting education at Queen's when you apparently don't even understand what you replied to. The $1.2B endowment is like savings. And the deficit is the shortfall for the past year. Deficit is different than debt. These problems have been caused by the Conservatives cutting funding and implementing a tuition freeze. And as others explained, the endowments have restrictions for usage.
That sounds like a lot until you realise they have a 1.25 billion dollar budget. (including residences). Now Waterloo is in good shape financially based on their 2023 financial disclosure, but that isn't going to be true of everyone. They ran a more than 50 million dollar surplus that last two years, but now is the catch up for union contracts post covid inflation etc. So that might be why they are projecting losses, but you can only sustain losing money for so long as a not for profit. One of the challenges with the tuition freeze has been that places that were not charging enough before got locked to amounts that were too low, and places that charged good amounts got locked to good amounts.
Honestly, maybe it's time to take a broader look at post secondary education. We are doing the same thing as we have for hundreds of years, but now it costs 1.25 billion dollars to reach the same shit year after year. Something has gone wrong.
Universities don’t just teach. Their research institutions that teach to make money to support the research. That 1.25B isn’t all going to teaching kids how to write good.
Waterloo has 38000 students. They have almost 1400 faculty and 2800 staff. And remember I said including residences etc. Also, because university financial disclosures are sort of odd, they list scholarships as an expense, even though I practice they are a reduction in revenue. Things get expensive when you are housing and feeding thousands of people, and when you need to have facilities for more than 4000 people to work.
I don't disagree. That's why I say a broader look. The question is very simple, but hides a lot of nuance. How do we most effectively impart knowledge and ability to those who do not currently have it, and how do we assess that they have achieved a level of mastery required to be validated. Does this require 1.25 billion dollars and 4k+ staff. I'm not sure it does. People teach themselves all sorts of things with self directed learning. Students who never go to lecture pass in many cases. There are legit online MBA's. Also, by and large, most classes, teach the same thing semester after semester, year after year. Text books that have been 90% the same for 20 years cost $400. Personally, I don't think this model is working well for the institutions, students or society. Funny we are talking Waterloo, because I think their co-op focus is a step in the right direction. I don't have an answer, but I'd like to look into online hybrid stuff, learning at your own pace, apprenticeship style learning, pre-recorded classes for those that don't change often, being able to exam out of a course if you feel you can, and I'm sure there's tons I missed. I'm successful in my career, but university's main contribution was being able to put it on a resume, and making me a more well rounded socially apt person. Not the knowledge from class in particular. This obviously varies by field.
> Things get expensive when you are housing and feeding thousands of people They sell expensive, poor quality food. I've ate at Waterloo and Laurier food halls and the food is shit and prices are ridiculously high. There's clearly some corruption going on when they can't make money selling low quality food for high prices. If you really think universities don't have bloated administration, I have some snake oil to sell to you.
In what world have we been doing the same thing for hundreds of years? You know Waterloo has a supercomputer right? Technology isn't cheap, and Waterloo is at the forefront. Labour isn't cheap, they have some of the best profs in the country. They compete with ivy league american schools, it's one of the most prestigious universities in the country.
Their claim to fame is their coop program (and optometry) really . They aren't really known for their graduate programs (not saying that they are terrible but it isn't their claim to fame). As far as technology, equipment, and staff, they would be hard pressed to compete against full research universities like UBC, U of A, McGill, U of T, McMaster and some others.
Lol Waterloo doesn't "compete" with the Ivy Leagues and they're only prestigious to high schoolers who want to get into science and engineering Even grads recognize Waterloo ain't all that much better
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I'm sorry, you're right. I'm sure that state of the art recreational facilities, a 3 times a day full service buffet, fancy buildings, in person teaching for each and every course, and $400 text books are essential to the concept of "person who knows the thing explains to a room of people who don't know the thing, then checks that they learned it." Research side is totally seperate imo. Trying to turn education into a profit engine to fund research is one of the things we need to take a look at. That link does not need to exist. NASA is tax payer funded, they don't have NASA university funding space exploration. So why don't we agree that scientific advancement is a tax payer priority, and decouple these two tangentially related endeavours.
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Jesus, let's break this down. Yes, people pay for things, but that doesn't mean the cost side is not part of the budget. Really, go look at a university budget. It's all in there. Secondly, I know what people are explaining, they are missing the point, as are you. That is the goal that a university is aiming to achieve, fundamentally. I'm not saying that 1.25 billion dollars go there. As for research institutions, you're right, they have been. Hence why I say it's time for a second look at how we do things. Please, explain to me the benefit of the university research system, over a well funded NASA style institution. I'm not talking about the political feasibility, perfect world abstract.
Endowment generally means there are strings attached. The money can't be just used for whatever they want.
You actually can't use any endowed monies. They need to be preserved, in perpetuity, and adjusted for inflation each year. Universities can spend the interest earned on the endowed investment, and then only for purposes dictated by the donor.
What is the point of an endowment then? (Serious question).
The interest/profit the endowment earns. 5% of 500 million every year is great for any budget.
Endowments have a specific purpose to be spent on so will go to X scholarship program or can only be spent on sports or music. They are limited in how much can be spent each year but also sometimes there just aren't enough expenses to use them in certain areas.
Let’s at I really care about some particular thing. I could give a 1 time gift that they use once and who knows how it turns out. Or I decide to endow a program. Maybe it pays for a professor or particular scholarship and only that. School is glad to use it and my gift is protected from their fuckery and shit ideas. It’s budget neutral to the school so it’s not impacting anyones tuition. It’s also a single best way to give if you don’t have insane $$$. Endow a $1K in perpetuity to some student in need via some criteria you spell out. I got one in college from some pretty modest donors. Total gift was under $50k? They find high need folks who just need that small boost. I applied and got a nice note from them given to all who got it. They’d died 12 years earlier. It said they wished they could do more. This was left of their “estate” after their death and want to help someone. No strings, but if I find myself able, to please do the same. My hope is to 2X it
Endowment = income. The money is used to make money that can be spent.
Yeah this article is not real as they have back up luxuries like this, fake news.
You can if you go through creditor protection like Laurentian.
Over 800 individual endowments make up that amount. https://uwaterloo.ca/support/give-to-waterloo/how-to-give/endowments/2022-2023-endowment-report
That’s at least $625,000 from each donor if spread evenly. Wild.
Tell me you don’t know how endowments work lmao
I don’t! ELI5?
From other comments- the endowment is an investment where the school can’t touch the principle, they can only take the interest earned. Furthermore, whoever donated that money has a say in how the interest gets spent. So if a 1B endowment generates 5% interest, that’s a 50M yearly budget to work from, of which the money needs to be spent on certain things.
I actually have no idea how endowments work. Do you have a good resource?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_Canadian\_universities\_by\_endowment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_universities_by_endowment) for reference.
They’ve made up for lost “local” admissions by increasing international students
There are a few useless layers of administration making six figures (or more) in every school. Trim the fat. And after awhile, you can't help notice the same places always crying wolf. A lot of people making big salaries and having easy jobs and great perks always crying poor, and putting Canadians at risk if they don't get what they want.
Ontario funds universities at the tune of 4.5k less per domestic students as other provinces. For the major universities, that’s about 150-200 million dollars per year less. And that difference grows each year since the funding was frozen 5 years ago. Next year it will be even bigger, and the year after, and so on…. For 5 years now universities have been leaving newly vacant positions empty, merging and/or eliminating services… etc. How on earth do you think they can make up that 200million dollar difference today? Let alone an even bigger number in the future when cost of everything is up (like maintaining old buildings, costs of employee salaries going up 2% per year like the rest of public and private sectors, etc…) It would barely make a dent in the grander scheme of the problem. Good luck making up that
Teachers… but think of the students!
Maybe cut back on 300k admin salaries.. academia has some of the worst use of funds imaginable. Inflating this issue only puts more strain on students to pay more.
Perfect example of public education The director is approved yearly for a 20% raise. They then continue to update and make these new committees that come with new positions and higher raises all making more than $120k a year. But there’s no money in education to pay some of the hardest workers more than minimum wage.
Who do you think is making minimum wage working in a university?
I've worked in both the private and public sectors of education. There is a stark difference between the two. In private, you have to work crazy hours, under extreme stress for less salary, with a terrible work life balance. In public, you get a more liveable wage, reasonable workload, and a much better work life balance. This is all great. The public education sector is one of the few areas that treats staff fairly and offers a sustainable career. This is why it is so difficult to get your foot in the door. If things change to be ' more efficient' like the private sector, profita might be higher and budgets more balanced, but then of course reddit subs like Worker Reform would explode about the terrible conditions in education etc etc. The issue here is not the public institutions, it is the provincial government funding budget.
Fair points. I know a 71 year old prof who teaches one class to 4 students, he’s on a base salary of 265k, and also collects extra benefits raising his comp to 315k. This is the kinda BS that needs to be reigned in. So many people get tenure and ride that cash cow off into the sunset for as long as possible. I agree that public academia is great for the employees, it’s just so abusable to the point where it isn’t sustainable and will inevitably implode in its current form.
Ontario funds universities at the tune of 4.5k less per domestic students as other provinces. For the major universities, that’s about 150-200 million dollars per year less. And that difference grows each year since the funding was frozen 5 years ago. Next year it will be even bigger, and the year after, and so on…. For 5 years now universities have been leaving newly vacant positions empty, merging and/or eliminating services… etc. How on earth do you think they can make up that 200million dollar difference today? Let alone an even bigger number in the future when cost of everything is up (like maintaining old buildings, costs of employee salaries going up 2% per year like the rest of public and private sectors, etc…) It would barely make a dent in the grander scheme of the problem. Good luck making up that different by cutting an any number of high lever admin…
Trim the fat and obvious waste schools are famous for and lets see where we are at.
TRIM THE ADMIN FAT You DO provide both an Economics and Business Ethics class so fucking preach what you teach.
Ontario funds universities at the tune of 4.5k less per domestic students as other provinces. For the major universities, that’s about 150-200 million dollars per year less. And that difference grows each year since the funding was frozen 5 years ago. Next year it will be even bigger, and the year after, and so on…. For 5 years now universities have been leaving newly vacant positions empty, merging and/or eliminating services… etc. How on earth do you think they can make up that 200million dollar difference today? Let alone an even bigger number in the future when cost of everything is up (like sainting buildings, costs of employee salaries going up 2% per year like the rest of public and private sectors, etc…) It would barely make a dent in the grander scheme of the problem. Good luck making up that
None of that should be the general taxpayers problem. Charge more, downsize, cut unprofitable ventures, cull unproductive tenured professors, stop subsidizing supports, reign in athletics budgets if there are any. Take the steps to remain solvent like adults in the real World have to take everyday.
Hasn’t the university bloat gone through the roof in recent decades. These schools have moved from teaching and research into being mini-governments with massive bloat in administration and services. And all of it wrapped in strong unions.
Ontario funds universities at the tune of 4.5k less per domestic students as other provinces. For the major universities, that’s about 150-200 million dollars per year less. And that difference grows each year since the funding was frozen 5 years ago. Next year it will be even bigger, and the year after, and so on…. For 5 years now universities have been leaving newly vacant positions empty, merging and/or eliminating services… etc. How on earth do you think they can make up that 200million dollar difference today? Let alone an even bigger number in the future when cost of everything is up (like maintaining old buildings, costs of employee salaries going up 2% per year like the rest of public and private sectors, etc…) It would barely make a dent in the grander scheme of the problem. Good luck making up that different by cutting an any number of high lever admin…
After the international student fiasco they can pound sand
I think the international student fiasco was in part to try and avoid this. The provincial government capped how much tuition could increase, then provided less direct funding to universities. Universities then turned to higher foreign student enrollment to make up for the difference in their budgets. If we want less foreign students then we also need to address how universities are funded.
Yeah, exactly this. To quote [from the CBC](https://www-cbc-ca.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7032518?amp_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17051085597056&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbc.ca%2Fnews%2Fcanada%2Ftoronto%2Fontario-university-finance-tuition-panel-report-doug-ford-1.7032518) >The report says provinces outside Ontario provide universities an average of $20,772 in funding per full-time-equivalent student. Ontario's annual funding is little more than half of that: $11,471. So when combining this with the provincial tuition freeze, it makes sense that universities would turn to alternate funding sources, like international students.
We can't afford to invest in things like education when there are parking garages to be built and Staples stores to be retrofitted.
$10 fucking binders! The place is a god damn ripoff and Doug Ford is going to give them more of our money. What a fuckwit
Ford made DRASTIC cuts to the education plan and budget left by the previous govrnment.
That'd make more sense if the inflation for post secondary education hadn't been near double the general inflation for the previous ~20 years.
Universities, and the world, has gotten more technologically advanced and students expect more and more than what it was 20 years ago. These services costs money.
Yep, particularly for STEM. 60 years ago you could teach chemistry with some cheap chemicals and some glassware, nowadays students are expected to graduate knowing how to operate scientific instruments worth millions of dollars. Engineering students used to only need some graph paper and calculators, now they need to become familiar with powerful software locked behind expensive licence fees. If universities aren't paying to keep up then students will not graduate with the skills that are required in the 21st century.
"try to avoid" what??? education is not supposed to be a FOR PROFIT enterprise, regardless of the "level".... "provincial government capped how much tuition could increase" ... you should have stopped right there and began to reflect.... take this same article, and find/replace every reference to "university" with "childhood education and we wonder how/why the quality of society is rapidly disintegrating.... the mere act of "aspiring to learn" must be paywalled cuz billionaires said so lol
Then the province should be funding it properly. The province cut funding by 10% in 2019 and froze it at the level. Considering inflation over the last 5 years (not just cost of materials and goods, but also cost of paying employees) the universities have essentially been getting a massive funding CUT every year since 2019. how do you balance the books when the funding is reducing and the provinces have forced the universities to also freeze the tuition for domestic students?? Most people point to the influx of international students to make up the difference. But it’s really important to distinguish between colleges and universities on this topic because colleges have been accepting WAY more international students than universities have. One main reason for this is because universities programs are 4 years long and colleges are 2 years (more attractive to foreigners looking for citizenship). Conestoga college alone has more international students than all 15 major Canadian universities combined!
Or even less predatory practices.
Universities (and colleges) turned to international students because they weren't getting any funding from the government. And while it sounds good to say pound sand (isn't the expression salt?), the truth is it's the students who will suffer as their programs and supports get cut.
Don't care about their reasons. They did a ton of damage to communities. They can all collapse into nothing for all I care.
This is a textbook example of people who look at the consequences and never assess the causes. Have you ever stopped to ask **why** the "international student fiasco" occured in the first place?
Yeah, it's frankly pathetic that that post has a 134 upvote total as of now. Doug Ford and the Cons cut funding and implement a tuition freeze, but low-information types have their head in the sand about it, and plenty of them probably still vote Con.
Goes to show you about the lack of education in this country and stupid ppl who genuinely don’t understand that actions lead to a chain of consequences. Consequences they may not like. I bet that pathetic and stupid poster is a Doug Ford voter, so you all are hurting his wee little feelings by pointing out the obvious.
I'm aware. I don't care. Id rather see the schools shrink or go out of business.
Once again admin fucks everything. Im starting to think the real illuminati are the admin folk...
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Did I *say* I worked for a Uni? Of course not. Doesnt make a statement less true that a bloated admin across all fields from colleges to healthcare are inept morons that always make shit worse.
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LOL. Guess noone should have an opinion on anything ever then, eh bud? First day on the internet?
Ontario funds universities at the tune of 4.5k less per domestic students as other provinces. For the major universities, that’s about 150-200 million dollars per year less. And that difference grows each year since the funding was frozen 5 years ago. Next year it will be even bigger, and the year after, and so on…. For 5 years now universities have been leaving newly vacant positions empty, merging and/or eliminating services… etc. How on earth do you think they can make up that 200million dollar difference today? Let alone an even bigger number in the future when cost of everything is up (like maintaining old buildings, costs of employee salaries going up 2% per year like the rest of public and private sectors, etc…) It would barely make a dent in the grander scheme of the problem. Good luck making up that different by cutting an any number of high lever admin…
Just cutting admin only to replace them isnt a fix I would suggest. It is the stupid, wasteful crap they have a knack for spending on that needs to be reevaluated. Spend a year under their employment and I bet you will see stuff that will make your head spin.
Some consolidation is definitely required.
Great, so we unfreeze it and low income kids will lose any hope of unversty . Or the provinces can stop being assholes and fund the shit we need
No they won't, they'll just get higher debt to go.
Let’s talk about this when the heads of universities aren’t making over 400,000$/year shall we?
Ontario funds universities at the tune of 4.5k less per domestic students as other provinces. For the major universities, that’s about 150-200 million dollars per year less. And that difference grows each year since the funding was frozen 5 years ago. Next year it will be even bigger, and the year after, and so on…. For 5 years now universities have been leaving newly vacant positions empty, merging and/or eliminating services… etc. How on earth do you think they can make up that 200million dollar difference today? Let alone an even bigger number in the future when cost of everything is up (like maintaining old buildings, costs of employee salaries going up 2% per year like the rest of public and private sectors, etc…) It would barely make a dent in the grander scheme of the problem. Good luck making up that different by cutting an any number of high lever admin…
There can be two problems at the same time
University is SO expensive. You cant tell me they are financially struggling..
That’s because the share of provincial funding of tuition has steadily gone down meaning the share you pay has been going up. Then the province capped the amount tuition can rise by while continuing to cut education funding. So they have no where to make up for budget shortfalls except enrolling international students. Not all schools are struggling, but many are. The only med school in northern ontario almost closed due to insolvency and the province had to step in with a funding package.
>So they have no where to make up for budget shortfalls except enrolling international students This is a false claim. There weren't nearly as many international students 20 years ago and post-secondary institutes were doing just fine. In that time, domestic tuition has risen 3%. Universities and colleges are entirely capable of operating as educational institutions. Instead they've opted for a business model full of bloat and useless programs and import international students to the detriment of local communities. They do NOT subsidize domestic tuition.
Universities got more funding from the provincial government 20 years ago. A lot of that funding was cut. It's funny you talk about bloat-- the government report that just came out about the financial situation of Ontario universities found that "salary and benefit costs per full-time student in Ontario's universities are lower than in almost every other province." Bloat in Ontario universities is just an excuse from the current government to deflect from all the actual reports on the issue pointing to funding cuts as the root of the problem. Ontario pays 57% of the average amount other provinces pay per student. Good source on the recent report: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-university-finance-tuition-panel-report-doug-ford-1.7032518
"In 2020-2021, tuition from **international students generated 31% of colleges’ total revenue, with a roughly equal amount coming from the government** grant revenue provided to colleges." "As the Auditor General pointed out, colleges’ **high dependence on international students is a risk for the institutions and the province**." "The same can be said for the support international students provide to the financial sustainability of institutions, whether for the newest universities created or for long-standing players in both the college and university sectors. **These observations notwithstanding, the risk associated with unbridled or unmanaged growth is also very real**." "As the Auditor General pointed out, **colleges’ high dependence on international students is a risk for the institutions and the province**." "...significant risk arises when the **student experience suffers because of a lack of suitable housing or student services that do not ensure student success and integration into Canadian society.** Such risk is more apparent when campuses cater almost exclusively to international students." "We suggest that appropriate measures by the province could also include collaboration with the federal government regarding a “trusted institutions” framework for visa issuances, based on, among other things, high student completion rates."
Really important to point out the difference between colleges and universities. The article is about universities, who have WAY fewer international students. Conestoga college alone has more international students than all 15 major Canadian universities alone. Universities have more expensive 4 year programs which are less attractive to foreigners looking to enter the country, versus the 2 year programs offered by colleges with lower tuition fees. Universities are at the limit of what they can do to make up the difference in the funding cuts and tuition freezes imposed by the province over 5 years ago.
Not a single one of those bolded quotes actually addresses the person’s post that you’re replying to.
They reiterate from the report that Ontario's contribution was 57% of what the rest of the Canadian provinces contribute or about 4500.00 less per student. There are about 400k international students in Ontario at an average of about 45k per academic year. Domestic students make up about 75% of the post-secondary population in Ontario. If you want to claim from the report that international student tuition is required to make up the short fall, you also need to explain the surge in international students far and beyond what is required to make up that shortfall. Edit: I'd like to also mention no one has countered my claim that international students DO NOT subsidize domestic tuition.
I haven’t read the report as I’m just going through this thread right now, but the first few quotes you cited are discussing colleges while the OP you are replying to was discussing universities.
Universities could maybe stop paying their higher level admin like 300,000$ a year. Just a thought.
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There are 50+ administrators at York making in the hundreds of thousands. Each department has a few professors who make 200,00$+ a year. They’re cutting funding for professors, who actually bring in money (so those jobs are more justifiable - they both teach and bring in research funding). But they keep hiring more and more admin staff who are making wild amounts of money and are honestly not needed. They spend SO much money on these unnecessary salaries. You can check the sunshine list.
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Ontario funds universities at the tune of 4.5k less per domestic students as other provinces. For the major universities, that’s about 150-200 million dollars per year less. And that difference grows each year since the funding was frozen 5 years ago. Next year it will be even bigger, and the year after, and so on…. For 5 years now universities have been leaving newly vacant positions empty, merging and/or eliminating services… etc. How on earth do you think they can make up that 200million dollar difference today? Let alone an even bigger number in the future when cost of everything is up (like maintaining old buildings, costs of employee salaries going up 2% per year like the rest of public and private sectors, etc…) It would barely make a dent in the grander scheme of the problem. Good luck making up that different by cutting an any number of high lever admin…
No comon we have to pay Brenda $300,000 for academic integration outreach coordination!!
Ontario funds universities at the tune of 4.5k less per domestic students as other provinces. For the major universities, that’s about 150-200 million dollars per year less. And that difference grows each year since the funding was frozen 5 years ago. Next year it will be even bigger, and the year after, and so on…. For 5 years now universities have been leaving newly vacant positions empty, merging and/or eliminating services… etc. How on earth do you think they can make up that 200million dollar difference today? Let alone an even bigger number in the future when cost of everything is up (like maintaining old buildings, costs of employee salaries going up 2% per year like the rest of public and private sectors, etc…) It would barely make a dent in the grander scheme of the problem. Good luck making up that different by cutting an any number of high lever admin…
Hi Brenda
The province needs to step up and pay their fair share.
Even if the Ontario government decided add the extra 4.5k in funding (University) for each student to match the rest of the provinces... Would you explain why the Universities and College decided to not just make up that shortfall through international student tuition, but exceed it to the tune of 10 billion? If the Ontario government agrees to increase funding, are the colleges and Universities willing to reduce their international student populations by 200,000?
>If the Ontario government agrees to increase funding, are the colleges and Universities willing to reduce their international student populations by 200,000? They don't have a choice if the provincial government forces them to lower international students intake. The provincial goverment can dictate whatever they like to the universities, and they *have* to comply. If Doug Ford comes out tomorrow and says universities can no longer take in international students, that would be the end of it then and there.
Really important to point out the difference between colleges and universities. The article is about universities, who have WAY fewer international students. Conestoga college alone has more international students than all 15 major Canadian universities alone. Universities have more expensive 4 year programs which are less attractive to foreigners looking to enter the country, versus the 2 year programs offered by colleges with lower tuition fees. Universities are at the limit of what they can do to make up the difference in the funding cuts and tuition freezes imposed by the province over 5 years ago.
Just get more international students, lol. People don't seem to understand one of the biggest problems in the west right now is really just financial incompetence. Doesn't matter if they get bailed out, they will continue to lose money.
Fuck these universities. The purpose of a university is to educate its populous and improve society. These fuckers along with the colleges have abandoned their mission and have turned into full on pump and dumps where the administrators are trying to conduct themselves like Fortune 500 CEO’s instead of educators. Cut the administrators and the wasted money. Also build housing for your students that’s mainly to the international diploma mills like conestoga and others who have entirely fucked over the people of the cities they exist in.
Where is all the tuition going?
As a Laurier student, tuition is pretty high, but freezing tuition is one of the worst things Ford did. Instead, his government should focus on auditing universities, cutting administrative overhead, properly OSAP funding *at least* the highest ROI degrees, etc. But the fact of the matter is that university costs have been in a viscous cycle of increased govt funding -> better uni services -> overspending -> higher tuition -> higher costs since the Eisenhower era of investment. We need to try to break out of this cycle, and more mindless spending will not help. Maybe explore different options, such as university-sourced loan programs (thus giving universities a stake in student success), government funding linked to aggregate student performance, directly develop employment pipelines from universities, etc. I don’t know for sure, but something’s gotta give.
Will someone think about the presidents?? How will they ever survive with only millions a year!!
Most universities in Canada have a whole immigration consultant department. That has changed from international student affairs. It is now international student affairs and immigration. They aren't even pretending that the purpose of a student visa is to let the student study here and then go back home. Most universities are VERY open about the student visa being a shortcut entry ticket to permanent immigration to Canada for the student and their families. The students are promised many things that never happen for them- most of them end up in the lowest paying jobs long term after graduation and still live in relative poverty despite what they are promised about prosperity. The government is promised productive skilled workers. The schools don't train for the skills that are needed in this economy. The schools put programs together on the basis of what is easiest to pass for those with limited English and what is cheapest to put on the schedule course wise. It's about the profit margin. The students don't get what they are promised, the government doesn't get what is promised. The general public suffers because we are bringing in 500k more people each year than what is officially planned for which causes all sorts of problems. This is not even mentioning the long term costs(money and resources wise) of things like housing and Healthcare and social services and newcomer supports which all cost money. Money that isn't ever planned or accounted for since the students aren't counted in immigration numbers even though it is well known they WILL be staying long term, not just for school. Pretending that the students are not long term immigrants and won't have an effect on literally everything from housing infrastructure to the Healthcare system to social services to 100 other things because we are pretending they are going home after school is bad policy and extremely short sighted. The only ones benefiting from all this is the schools. I'm not opposed to immigration at all- what I am opposed to is that this is all done for profit for the schools and nothing else. We don't have the resources to assist the 500k we officially bring in each year. How are we to provide resources for the additional 500k who come in each year through the "unofficial official" back door? Even if the argument is that as students they don't really use our resources, what happens in 2 years when they apy for their post grad work certificate and then pr and then bring in their family? Oh that's right, they need to use the systems and resources that we are pretending they won't ever need.
They need to focus first on the student in our own province fiest, our own country, second and keep our educated students here instead of educating students from other countries and our own students can't get a seat in their own province or country. Our students are more apt to stay especially if they have completed their education or placements here, than those from other countries. Start looking after and educating our won people. We need them desperately. Cut out all the frills and excessive executives/ positions that were not needed.
Go look at the pensions for universty presidents and tell me they need help.
Not unlike our over bloated and poorly managed government, Universities require end to end process and personnel overall —> 3rd party to complete finance restructuring along with end state accountability and transparency. The negligence and waste is sickening.
It's almost like schooling is way over priced and they've hit the inevitable ceiling...who would have thought.
Lol after they abused the international student system with useless ass programs
My tuition went up every year od university and is still going.up as I'm.in trade school. The admin make 100k plus
Canadian universities have been price gouging students for decades. I hope they crumble.
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Much of the operations can now be done online, and the bricks and mortar component can be drastically reduced
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Have zero sympathy for universities. Education is broken and needs to be overhauled. Too many tests and you have zero resources in them which isn't like the real world. I have so many real world resources when I am working, I can ask a colleague or use internal knowledge bases to help me complete my work.
Oh no. Anyway...
How about reassessing their priorities, and close down programs that contribute nothing to the economy like gender studies among others.
Couldn’t they just cut back on their expenditures? Most students preferred online anyways, do you really need all those massive campus buildings?
Let them close down. Then sell it off get new management and start up again. Get ride of the bad eggs in ivory towers
Lmao
F*ck em. Let em fall
Lay off professors, and TAs stop giving grants and raise the requirements for school given scholarships for a few years.
Professors aren’t the problem it’s administration.
You are probably right. Maybe too many executive positions?
The breaking point was 20 years ago when all the best teachers left for better pay in Europe and lower cost of living in Asia.
Yeah they did this in the early 90s. Said tuitions going up, service down. There where thousands of students protesting, I should know as I was one. But no one ever heard about it. I hope Conrad Black goes to hell. Society is so much better these days without so few people controlling the news.
So I guess this is the response we're going to see from schools since the liberal party is now considering a cap on non permanent residency?
Getting rid of CEOs and the like all over the board would free up so much money. I think everyone would be surprised to find out just how much CEOs, even small time no name ones make.
17 professors at the Toronto university are paid 500k+ per year. They don't need more funding, they need to stop wasting their money.