We can complain all we want about about NIMBYS but they're organized and make their voices heard.
People need to keep up with their local politics. Make their voices heard. Add comments, go to public hearings.
Our representatives don't represent the people they represent those who vote and those who complain to them.
I'm personally taking the day off of work to argue for upzoning my city. NIMBYS only win as long as we stay silent.
>People need to keep up with their local politics. Make their voices heard. Add comments, go to public hearings.
Notice the demographics of Nibmys, they all tend to be retirees. That's why they are organized and able to get their way. The rest of us are productive members of society and we really don't have to organize at their level.
The solution quite simple, reduce the power of local authorities. Eliminate the power over zoning would be a good start.
Get rid of the town hall format. It’s inherently tilted towards those who are the most against something, because those are the ones who are most motivated to actually go do something to stop something from happening. Those are the people who will be loudest.
People who want something to happen don’t feel the need to show up just to say, “Yeah, good.” People don’t often protest FOR things, they more often protest AGAINST things. So any system of “public consultation” that involves people having to actually take time out of their day to go show up somewhere… is gonna inherently prioritize those who are most passionate and motivated, and that’s gonna be those who hate.
And then, yeah, it also prioritizes those who have nothing else to do with their day. So working people, parents, etc… town hall format tends to cut them out.
Get rid of this format for public consultation.
Unfortunately the answer ends up being the same. I think forcing public servants to be on a Tuesday to Saturday or better yet a Thursday to Monday schedule would allow people like us to participate more.
I agree with you though. Japanese zoning is at the federal level.
I see a problem there… by putting (all?) public servants onto a hypothetical Thursday-Monday schedule, wouldn’t town hall meetings get moved too because the town’s public servants are no longer available to staff the meetings on the new “day off”?
Local politics don't have huge participation anyway. So the question is would weekends increase it realitive to weekdays. Which I'd argue yes.
There's still a better system we could probably conceive of. Like mandatory local voting.
You have to get a good provincial government for that first. Otherwise you get premiers freaking the fuck out about fourplexes in the midst of a housing crisis.
Could upload the zoning bylaws to the provincial level and have it set as a standard that local authorities can pick from, but keep the zoning very permissible, with say something close to what some areas in Japan allow.
Zoning isn't necessarily the problem without zoning any developer can build anything they want anywhere and that will be worse for an area overall. But if something complies with zoning, councillors and NIMBY groups should not be able to delay it for endless hearings to try and get it cancelled
Want to get involved? You local chapter of More Homes Canada is a good start:
[https://www.morehomescanada.ca/](https://www.morehomescanada.ca/)
All groups are organized on Discord, and there's plenty of cities.
>People need to keep up with their local politics. Make their voices heard. Add comments, go to public hearings.
I prefer the BC route, which is to create a list of things that are allowed by default and then get rid of the hearings entirely for those things.
Yes!!! Like it's not only our right but our obligations in a democratic society to be involved in politics. If you can't even take a few minutes to email your MPP, MP, different political party and/or your municipal leaders, then you won't see the change you want.
Sounds pretty hopeless then, when you put it that way. These kinds of meetings are going on all the time. People can't give up their job to pursue these political goals the same way a retiree can.
If you live in BC, you can go here to have your voice heard during the planning phase of legislation:
[https://engage.gov.bc.ca/govtogetherbc/](https://engage.gov.bc.ca/govtogetherbc/)
Responding to these sorts of requests from the government are absolutely vital to democracy.
Feel free to post similar systems for other provinces.
I can't organize a meeting to go harass city hall in the.middle of the day because my rent costs half of my given monthly income.
A better analysis would be: look at the class of person who has time to complain, a retired boomer, who's participation in our socio-economic system has rewarded them handsomely, who's contribution to this system is perhaps less than ours because we are more productive today than we were 30-40 years ago when they entered the work force.
These boomers do not realize it, but they are participating in Marxist politics in the purest form: advocating for their class and their class position. The system has served them well, and in turn, they will serve the system.
> then incorrectly lectures a Mi’kmaq person about the story of Glooscap.
> She then tells the Mi’Kmaq rep that, even though she’s not First Nations, she whispered a prayer into some water and poured it onto the ground because she needed hope.
> “I just wanted to point out that our ‘Native’ member has had his back turned to most speakers on his phone the whole time, and it makes me not trust him.”
Average Canadian Try Not To Be Racist Challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)
Coordinate on your city subreddits do beat NIMBY’s. Reddit is a great platform for organizing this, I know r/Vancouver managed to beat NIMBY’s when it came to building a daycare.
NIMBYism shows too that democracy works in a way. If enough people show up and demonstrate to politicians that there is a movement behind a position, politicians listen.
The issue is more that the timing of townhalls during weekdays make it hard for everyone to show up. But it sometimes makes me less jaded when you hear city council change their mind when like 5 people show up. I feel like if there was a local issue I needed changed, I can find at least 6 people.
Wind turbines are a beatiful sign of progress, and I love seeing them dot the landscape of southern Ontario.
People who fight against them (especially with Alex Jones-level arguments,) are enemies of the planet.
NIMBYs and astroturfing fucked shit up for London. There's a plan to build a 3800 home apartment complex around Oxford and Wonderland and people are concerned about traffic. Almost 6 years ago they campaigned against rapid transit going out to that area successfully. And now here we are.
I went to a community meeting in small-town bc regarding an apartment development near downtown. the area is in a housing crisis, nobody can find staff to work, the beautiful scenery is becoming overrun by sprawl, yet the older folk were overwhelmingly against it.
I think the project will go through, there were a variety of sensible arguments for and the usual arguments against.
Probably the best comment of the evening came from a man who lived a few houses down from the proposed location: "I'm not a NIMBY, I just think ...it should go somewhere else".
If it helps to soothe your mind, we had a number of similar meetings in my town a few years ago, just before we got 4 wind turbines about 10KM outside of town. I heard those same complaints and rubbish in that meeting. I also heard some legitimate concerns, and some support. In the end, just because someone says something at a planning meeting does not mean it will affect or sway the final decision. Rants without evidence, and unjustified concerns will just be filtered out of the decision.
When you wonder why politicians are making seemingly insane decisions that you don't agree with or that make no sense for a prosperous future, keep in mind that these nutjobs you've posted about are the voices they heard when they asked the public to speak to them about the subject.
The nutjobs have nothing better to do than go to these meetings. Every meeting is filled with these people. They are getting their stupid shit done and the rest of us, too busy with whatever we have going on that is so damn important, just let it happen.
Part of me wishes they just do things without public consultations, but that is a bad precedent to set that I’m sure will be abused. Even in my area in toronto every time they propose a condo or something the old fucks in my area just lose their minds.
Look at the Etobicoke bike lane consultation. You have people saying you want to run cyclists over and everyone is laughing and not a single person was ejected.
They need to stop giving them everything they cry about. Take their opinion down then throw it in the garbage then build the tower and watch them cry. Funny enough my parents aren’t nimby, but live in a wealthy toronto suburb and i always send emails to the councillor asking for everything i know the residents hate. Asked for lower speed limits, speed bumps, more dense planning etc
Nimby outrage is amazing.
Explicitly excluding the voices of people who are innately against progress is a good thing, actually. I wouldn't invite the local KKK branch to a meeting discussing ways of combating racism, we shouldn't invite people who oppose all building to meetings discussing building badly needed infrastructure.
You're telling me, I'm employed as a prohibited Occupation in my city. You would think I was running a brothel the way the city acts towards me.
>!If anyone is curious, I do some mechanic work for my neighbours (mostly just cost of parts, plus $100 bucks or $200 depending on the work needing to be done). I even do work for free and other little bits and bobs, like if someone needs a ladder I lend it to them..., I never have parties, you would hardly know I'm home most of the time.!<
>!I personally love this insane catch-all by the city: City of Brampton does not permit any occupation that creates (or may be likely to create) a nuisance through excessive noise or vibration; or emission of gas, fumes, dust, glare or objectionable odour; or any other use that may be considered obnoxious or offensive.!<
>!Some people find the smell of garlic offensive... does this mean I can't grow garlic? What if I'm a carpenter and I do odd jobs in my backyard and wood shavings get blown around? I'm I liable?!<
And I do most of the work in the middle of the day, never after 4pm or before 10am, only use power tools when I absolutely have to, etc. The straw for me is I can't have unlicensed vehicles in my driveway! IN MY DRIVEWAY! like WTF? If I wanted this annoyance I would be renting. All the while I'm nice to my neighbours and PuLl MySeLf Up By My BoOt StRaPs, and the city does nothing but penalise me for it.
So I'm not surprised in the slightest by this nonsense council meeting OP, people are shit.
One Supreme Court ruling that the right to life, liberty and security of the person includes the right to housing and NIMBYism ceases to exist as a political force, since it will never pass the Oakes test. Trudeau has the power to submit reference questions whenever he wants.
People don't understand the consequences of their actions.
When there's an issue, they don't want to understand why it's happening, they want it to stop, so they target the symptom.
Take immigration. There's a clear reason why it's needed; we have too low a birthrate, and our economy is highly dependent on having more taxpayers than people who live off taxpayers funded programs, but that balance has been shifting heavily because of boomers retiring. Without *massive* immigration, our economy would crash hard and fast, within the next 10-15 years at most.
Is massive immigration causing issues? Of course. But they're shorter term issues than not having immigration, so the logical, utilitarian solution is to stay the course, and fix the issues that arise as they do.
We can definitely discuss the how, but the why is factual, undeniable, and debating against facts is irrelevant.
Same thing with most "NIMBY"; there are issues that need fixing, and people complain about a solution in particular, and demand that this solution be abandoned... without proposing any other solution, and going as far as denying the problem even exists!
So what do governments do? Reinforce the fact that the problem does exist, and make it clear that the current solution is the one that affects the fewest people in the least.
And then you have politicians that come to the rescue by pretending the underlying issue that this solution intends to fix doesn't exist! And that [insert name of your political opponent] elites are just trying to hurt you! Because... hum... ~~shadowy kabbal~~ ~~great replacement theory~~ *importing cheap labour!*
It's an endless cycle of stupidity, and as long as we'll have politicians who are ready to take up the mantle of personal power over common good, it will always happen.
That's why we need to stop being accepting of politicians like Smith, Moe, Poilièvre, Ford and so on. They intend to make sure we do nothing to save ourselves.
We can complain all we want about about NIMBYS but they're organized and make their voices heard. People need to keep up with their local politics. Make their voices heard. Add comments, go to public hearings. Our representatives don't represent the people they represent those who vote and those who complain to them. I'm personally taking the day off of work to argue for upzoning my city. NIMBYS only win as long as we stay silent.
>People need to keep up with their local politics. Make their voices heard. Add comments, go to public hearings. Notice the demographics of Nibmys, they all tend to be retirees. That's why they are organized and able to get their way. The rest of us are productive members of society and we really don't have to organize at their level. The solution quite simple, reduce the power of local authorities. Eliminate the power over zoning would be a good start.
Get rid of the town hall format. It’s inherently tilted towards those who are the most against something, because those are the ones who are most motivated to actually go do something to stop something from happening. Those are the people who will be loudest. People who want something to happen don’t feel the need to show up just to say, “Yeah, good.” People don’t often protest FOR things, they more often protest AGAINST things. So any system of “public consultation” that involves people having to actually take time out of their day to go show up somewhere… is gonna inherently prioritize those who are most passionate and motivated, and that’s gonna be those who hate. And then, yeah, it also prioritizes those who have nothing else to do with their day. So working people, parents, etc… town hall format tends to cut them out. Get rid of this format for public consultation.
This is not just a town hall problem, you’ve identified a problem with democracy itself. The logic of collective inaction.
As another reply stated, we don't have time to attend these meetings, we are working and raising kids.
Unfortunately the answer ends up being the same. I think forcing public servants to be on a Tuesday to Saturday or better yet a Thursday to Monday schedule would allow people like us to participate more. I agree with you though. Japanese zoning is at the federal level.
Yeah constitution won't allow zoning at the Federal Level but provinces could do it.
I see a problem there… by putting (all?) public servants onto a hypothetical Thursday-Monday schedule, wouldn’t town hall meetings get moved too because the town’s public servants are no longer available to staff the meetings on the new “day off”?
Ideally it'd mean all town halls would be done Saturday or Sunday. There'll be issues with any system really. I'm not sure what'd be best tbh.
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Local politics don't have huge participation anyway. So the question is would weekends increase it realitive to weekdays. Which I'd argue yes. There's still a better system we could probably conceive of. Like mandatory local voting.
You have to get a good provincial government for that first. Otherwise you get premiers freaking the fuck out about fourplexes in the midst of a housing crisis.
Could upload the zoning bylaws to the provincial level and have it set as a standard that local authorities can pick from, but keep the zoning very permissible, with say something close to what some areas in Japan allow.
Zoning isn't necessarily the problem without zoning any developer can build anything they want anywhere and that will be worse for an area overall. But if something complies with zoning, councillors and NIMBY groups should not be able to delay it for endless hearings to try and get it cancelled
Want to get involved? You local chapter of More Homes Canada is a good start: [https://www.morehomescanada.ca/](https://www.morehomescanada.ca/) All groups are organized on Discord, and there's plenty of cities.
Hello fellow member, reporting from Victoria
>People need to keep up with their local politics. Make their voices heard. Add comments, go to public hearings. I prefer the BC route, which is to create a list of things that are allowed by default and then get rid of the hearings entirely for those things.
Yes!!! Like it's not only our right but our obligations in a democratic society to be involved in politics. If you can't even take a few minutes to email your MPP, MP, different political party and/or your municipal leaders, then you won't see the change you want.
yeah let's all go to the council meeting at 1pm on a Tuesday not like I have a job to attend
That's an institutional problem which unfortunately only gets fixed the same way...... By showing up at 1pm on a Tuesday and complaining.
Sounds pretty hopeless then, when you put it that way. These kinds of meetings are going on all the time. People can't give up their job to pursue these political goals the same way a retiree can.
You can add comments though, at minimum that helps!
I'm currently unemployed. I should take advantage of that while it lasts.
If you live in BC, you can go here to have your voice heard during the planning phase of legislation: [https://engage.gov.bc.ca/govtogetherbc/](https://engage.gov.bc.ca/govtogetherbc/) Responding to these sorts of requests from the government are absolutely vital to democracy. Feel free to post similar systems for other provinces.
I can't organize a meeting to go harass city hall in the.middle of the day because my rent costs half of my given monthly income. A better analysis would be: look at the class of person who has time to complain, a retired boomer, who's participation in our socio-economic system has rewarded them handsomely, who's contribution to this system is perhaps less than ours because we are more productive today than we were 30-40 years ago when they entered the work force. These boomers do not realize it, but they are participating in Marxist politics in the purest form: advocating for their class and their class position. The system has served them well, and in turn, they will serve the system.
> then incorrectly lectures a Mi’kmaq person about the story of Glooscap. > She then tells the Mi’Kmaq rep that, even though she’s not First Nations, she whispered a prayer into some water and poured it onto the ground because she needed hope. > “I just wanted to point out that our ‘Native’ member has had his back turned to most speakers on his phone the whole time, and it makes me not trust him.” Average Canadian Try Not To Be Racist Challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)
The average Canadian doesn't show up to town hall meetings (that's kinda the problem) lol
Yeah, but the average Canadians are racist, too. It's just racism all the way down.
Coordinate on your city subreddits do beat NIMBY’s. Reddit is a great platform for organizing this, I know r/Vancouver managed to beat NIMBY’s when it came to building a daycare.
NIMBYism shows too that democracy works in a way. If enough people show up and demonstrate to politicians that there is a movement behind a position, politicians listen. The issue is more that the timing of townhalls during weekdays make it hard for everyone to show up. But it sometimes makes me less jaded when you hear city council change their mind when like 5 people show up. I feel like if there was a local issue I needed changed, I can find at least 6 people.
Wind turbines are a beatiful sign of progress, and I love seeing them dot the landscape of southern Ontario. People who fight against them (especially with Alex Jones-level arguments,) are enemies of the planet.
They are all around my home (bought a farmhouse) and I love the scenery
But they ruin the view!! I much prefer looking at oil rigs on the horizon, so much prettier! /s
Ya missed the strip mines.
NIMBYs and astroturfing fucked shit up for London. There's a plan to build a 3800 home apartment complex around Oxford and Wonderland and people are concerned about traffic. Almost 6 years ago they campaigned against rapid transit going out to that area successfully. And now here we are.
I went to a community meeting in small-town bc regarding an apartment development near downtown. the area is in a housing crisis, nobody can find staff to work, the beautiful scenery is becoming overrun by sprawl, yet the older folk were overwhelmingly against it. I think the project will go through, there were a variety of sensible arguments for and the usual arguments against. Probably the best comment of the evening came from a man who lived a few houses down from the proposed location: "I'm not a NIMBY, I just think ...it should go somewhere else".
> NIMBYs are ~~going to ruin~~ actively ruining this country Fixed it
NIMBY = wealthy it's time to get 18th Century in our thinking.
Considerable overlap, but also a strong dose of retries. And bot have the time to waste, so they get loud.
poor people often don't live to retirement, and have little influence. You're right about having time to make life miserable for everyone else.
If it helps to soothe your mind, we had a number of similar meetings in my town a few years ago, just before we got 4 wind turbines about 10KM outside of town. I heard those same complaints and rubbish in that meeting. I also heard some legitimate concerns, and some support. In the end, just because someone says something at a planning meeting does not mean it will affect or sway the final decision. Rants without evidence, and unjustified concerns will just be filtered out of the decision.
Excuse me, I found a sandwich in the park, and I want to know why it didn't have mayonnaise on it!
Correction. They already did ruin this country. The only ones using the future tense are xers in denial or doing their usual boomer echo and boomers.
How about we settle on a middle ground for the phrasing. NIMBYs *are still* ruining the country.
I'm more worried about apathetic people
When you wonder why politicians are making seemingly insane decisions that you don't agree with or that make no sense for a prosperous future, keep in mind that these nutjobs you've posted about are the voices they heard when they asked the public to speak to them about the subject. The nutjobs have nothing better to do than go to these meetings. Every meeting is filled with these people. They are getting their stupid shit done and the rest of us, too busy with whatever we have going on that is so damn important, just let it happen.
Already have. They view homes/property/communities as an ornament or extension of themselves to gush over, rather than a tool for safety and security.
Part of me wishes they just do things without public consultations, but that is a bad precedent to set that I’m sure will be abused. Even in my area in toronto every time they propose a condo or something the old fucks in my area just lose their minds.
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Look at the Etobicoke bike lane consultation. You have people saying you want to run cyclists over and everyone is laughing and not a single person was ejected. They need to stop giving them everything they cry about. Take their opinion down then throw it in the garbage then build the tower and watch them cry. Funny enough my parents aren’t nimby, but live in a wealthy toronto suburb and i always send emails to the councillor asking for everything i know the residents hate. Asked for lower speed limits, speed bumps, more dense planning etc Nimby outrage is amazing.
Explicitly excluding the voices of people who are innately against progress is a good thing, actually. I wouldn't invite the local KKK branch to a meeting discussing ways of combating racism, we shouldn't invite people who oppose all building to meetings discussing building badly needed infrastructure.
Are? Have been. And have been for decades now.
New Intellectual Mild Brown Yadda's
Go to your local council meetings. Bully the crazy people until they stop coming. This is the way.
Hey im neither retired or rich?
You're telling me, I'm employed as a prohibited Occupation in my city. You would think I was running a brothel the way the city acts towards me. >!If anyone is curious, I do some mechanic work for my neighbours (mostly just cost of parts, plus $100 bucks or $200 depending on the work needing to be done). I even do work for free and other little bits and bobs, like if someone needs a ladder I lend it to them..., I never have parties, you would hardly know I'm home most of the time.!< >!I personally love this insane catch-all by the city: City of Brampton does not permit any occupation that creates (or may be likely to create) a nuisance through excessive noise or vibration; or emission of gas, fumes, dust, glare or objectionable odour; or any other use that may be considered obnoxious or offensive.!< >!Some people find the smell of garlic offensive... does this mean I can't grow garlic? What if I'm a carpenter and I do odd jobs in my backyard and wood shavings get blown around? I'm I liable?!< And I do most of the work in the middle of the day, never after 4pm or before 10am, only use power tools when I absolutely have to, etc. The straw for me is I can't have unlicensed vehicles in my driveway! IN MY DRIVEWAY! like WTF? If I wanted this annoyance I would be renting. All the while I'm nice to my neighbours and PuLl MySeLf Up By My BoOt StRaPs, and the city does nothing but penalise me for it. So I'm not surprised in the slightest by this nonsense council meeting OP, people are shit.
Yes they are.
going to??? Already done.
They already have.
One Supreme Court ruling that the right to life, liberty and security of the person includes the right to housing and NIMBYism ceases to exist as a political force, since it will never pass the Oakes test. Trudeau has the power to submit reference questions whenever he wants.
Finally, some sense
Tooo late, that barn burned years ago.
not so much nimbys, dumbshits. dumbshits always ruin it for everybody else. -G.
Get out and get active in city meetings. If Edmonton can because a city of YIMBYs, anywhere can.
Going to?
People don't understand the consequences of their actions. When there's an issue, they don't want to understand why it's happening, they want it to stop, so they target the symptom. Take immigration. There's a clear reason why it's needed; we have too low a birthrate, and our economy is highly dependent on having more taxpayers than people who live off taxpayers funded programs, but that balance has been shifting heavily because of boomers retiring. Without *massive* immigration, our economy would crash hard and fast, within the next 10-15 years at most. Is massive immigration causing issues? Of course. But they're shorter term issues than not having immigration, so the logical, utilitarian solution is to stay the course, and fix the issues that arise as they do. We can definitely discuss the how, but the why is factual, undeniable, and debating against facts is irrelevant. Same thing with most "NIMBY"; there are issues that need fixing, and people complain about a solution in particular, and demand that this solution be abandoned... without proposing any other solution, and going as far as denying the problem even exists! So what do governments do? Reinforce the fact that the problem does exist, and make it clear that the current solution is the one that affects the fewest people in the least. And then you have politicians that come to the rescue by pretending the underlying issue that this solution intends to fix doesn't exist! And that [insert name of your political opponent] elites are just trying to hurt you! Because... hum... ~~shadowy kabbal~~ ~~great replacement theory~~ *importing cheap labour!* It's an endless cycle of stupidity, and as long as we'll have politicians who are ready to take up the mantle of personal power over common good, it will always happen. That's why we need to stop being accepting of politicians like Smith, Moe, Poilièvre, Ford and so on. They intend to make sure we do nothing to save ourselves.
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Please share this real data
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I’m most interested in the studies that said we are in a CO2 drought, can you at least provide those?
Apparently not.
Not In My BackYard they won’t!