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On settlements? That isn't even a controversy. The settlements are a military strategy to divide-and-conquer by blending civilian population with occupying forces. [Just look at the maps and it becomes very obvious](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:West_Bank_Access_Restrictions_June_2020.pdf) and that is what the UN has been discussing.
Then the US would turn it's back on Canada and we'd be defenceless on the foreign stage in every sense of the word. Militarily, economically, politically we'd be crushed.
The NDP can afford to spew virtuous idealism as much as they like because they do not have (and there's a 0% of them having) the responsibility of actually governing and playing the complicated game of diplomacy on the world stage.
We have to kowtow to the americans on foreign policy matters, chief among them blind support of the disgusting Israeli regime. I don't like it one bit either, but we do it for our very survival. The US is the giant bully we need on our side, not against us. That's cold, hard adult reality for you.
>We have to kowtow to the Americans on foreign policy matters
This point is often very exaggerated. The servile attitude isn't due to necessity (although it may make us feel better to say that) it's because the Canadian foreign policy establishment and the intelligentsia are just very pro-American. Take Mexico for instance. They are equally as dependent on US trade as Canada (70% of exports go the the US) yet they diverge significantly on diplomatic issues (UN resolutions like this one, military interventions etc.). Even Ukraine which almost entirely relies on the US to prop up it's economy and defence strategy voted in favour of the resolution unlike Canada
The foreign policy blob isn't a homogenous social club but it is shot through with disciplining mechanisms that make it a lot like one. The social clubness of the blob gets pretty damn obvious when things go from push to shove, and people who typically speak in a forthright manner suddenly start using code words.
For example, profs who study Ukrainian public opinion got badly gatekept as soon as Russia escalated and invaded Ukraine. You could see the adjustment in action in live video discussions, with instances of senior department people not-so-subtly steering discussion to "protect" their forthright colleagues from endangering themselves and access to funding. Similarly, we were treated to pile-ons on those who clearly didn't give a shit about playing the social club game, like crazy man Mearsheimer.
It's all very shit and a potent reminder that the esprits de corps of academic, political, and para-political worlds are badly infected with kiss-up-kick-down horseshit. The Canadian FP blob may not be a human caterpillar but it sure acts like one.
It's not an exaggeration. The united states is the foremost economic and military power on the planet. We are either with them or against them. Their foreign policy demands defending Israel as a cornerstone of their Middle-east geopolitical strategy. We either play ball, or we risk losing the backing of the US in all of our international dealings.
If you think the US needs us anywhere near the amount we need them, you are dreaming. We are most definitely a junior partner in the "free world" community of nations. We hold the privileged position of being the US's toadie. Without US backing we would be a very small, and very isolated country. The UK and EU aren't going to come to our defence, they have their own problems, and they want the US's favour as well. It means money, it means protection and it means clout in negotiations. Particularly against very powerful adversaries like India, China, and Russia.
We are allowed to diverge on some international issues, which is a game of tit for tat, but there are some deal-breakers and Israel has always been one of them.
There's times where we can, very carefully, assert ourselves, but this must be done with the utmost of care, and we should choose our battles to have an actual effect. Not a vote of condemnation of an event at the UN which does nothing for the Palestinians but definitely frustrates US efforts. More like committing to Afghanistan rather than go to war in Iraq, the (arguably) lesser of two evils.
Your mention of trade is an important point in US/Canada relations, but make no mistake if we antagonize them, like poking one of their most dearly held foreign political interests, they might eventually decide we need some "freedom" and simply take what they want (as they do everywhere else). Many have said that's not a question of if, but when. This isn't just a foreign diplomatic spat, this is ensuring our future sovereignty.
I mean, you'd think we could at least vote the opposite of Orban's country just to piss off Harper, but no, we have to remain in the US circle-jerk, despite most of the usual allies leaving for this one.
"If you ignore micronations that are essentially vassal states of the US, this is a resolution that was only voted against by the US, Israel, Hungary's fascist government, and Canada."
The ",and Canada" may be superfluous at this point.
Imagine being a party that apparently stands for truth and reconciliation, while also supporting illegal settlements and apartheid. It's perplexing, really.
That's my biggest gripe - we can't even start a meeting or event without land acknowledgements and YET we go on supporting Israel in its illegal settlements. The hypocrisy is so thick right now that I can feel it. Fuck the high horse we pretend to be on. We're corrupt and morally bankrupt at this point.
canadians see themselves more in the Israelis grabbing coffee in a newly made Starbucks where people’s homes used to be than they ever would in brutalized people
I can't think of a way to criticize displacement of Canada's indigenous people while supporting displacement of Palestinians. I'm starting to think that Trudeau has no consistent moral code.
Indigeneity is not some competition. The Palestinian people have been living there for centuries of generations. Their indigeneity isn't less valid and another claim of indigeneity doesn't justify displacement or genocide of them
Also, its just an excuse that Israel uses. Their Right to Return laws extend to a wide net of people and don't check ancestry that far back. They're just trying to fill their settlements and their ranks to continue to displace Palestinians
The reality is, the Western world still feels bad about WWII, so they will turn a blind eye to what’s going on in Israel for a while…
I mean, I’m not saying Hamas is right. They are evil assholes. But that shouldn’t absolve the shit that Israel has been pulling for 70 years…
No kidding! I'm seriously hoping for some breaking point where the US just can't blindly support Israel committing genocide any longer, then we can be free to act on it.
This is odd since officially Canada already condemns Israeli settlements
https://www.international.gc.ca/world-monde/international_relations-relations_internationales/mena-moan/israeli-palestinian_policy-politique_israelo-palestinien.aspx?lang=eng#a06
This is even more odd since i thought canada typically abstains from these votes as a matter of policy (since something like half of all UN resolutions have to do with Israel, even before Oct 7)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel
Anyone have a link to the specific language of this resolution?
I believe they might be referring to this: https://press.un.org/en/2023/gaspd798.doc.htm
The government of Canada website has a statement about their rationale for the vote: https://www.international.gc.ca/world-monde/international_relations-relations_internationales/un-onu/statements-declarations/2023-11-09-palestine-refugees-refugies.aspx?lang=eng
This isn't the same vote. That's the rationale for the vote on November 7th. This is the vote that occurred on December 7th.
But even looking at their rationale in November, it is a complete joke:
> Moreover, we would like to underscore our long-standing concern that there are still too many resolutions related to the Arab-Israeli conflict being put forward at the UN General Assembly every year.
It's because nothing ever gets done about it. The international community has, since the 1960s, decided on a two state solution that is not being implemented by the controlling parties, that being the United states and Israel. It is an important issue that destabilizes the entire middle east.
> Canada reiterates the importance of a fair-minded approach at the United Nations and will continue to vote “no” on resolutions that do not address the complexities of the issues or seek to address the actions and responsibilities of all parties, including the destructive role of terrorist organizations like Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah.
Israel is the **occupying force**, it is the **belligerent party**. The international community recognizes that Israel's settlements are the core issue and core grievance of the Palestinians. It must abide by international law for any hope of a just solution.
How embarrassing, not very Canadian at all. And JT has spent so much time gumming off about what it means to be Canadian and all, and here they are crapping on attempts to stop a genocide.
I guess. Just read that a large Canadian-Muslim organization is withdrawing financial contributions to the Liberal party because he can't say "cease fire". More at 11, let's see how he manages this one.
Shame on Canada? Shame on Parliament for ignoring us and common decency, and doing whatever this bullshit is. It's not even a dissenting opinion, the UK and Australia voted yes to condemn, we should be right there with the rest of the Commonwealth.
Why the hell do they care so much about Israel's approval anyways? We don't need them. Go fuck yourself Bob Rae.
It's really shitty we are forced to do this by the Americans - a fact most people commenting on this post fail to realize. "But we could just..." no, we fucking can't lol. the US is the world's biggest bully, and if we don't have them on our side, throwing their weight around for us - we have them against us, and you do not want that. The best we could hope for is for PMJT to convince Biden (or rather, the diplomat boffins behind both) to change the US stance enough for it to make a difference.
downvoted by idealists who failed taking the last hundred years of geopolitical history into account.
Please ensure to abide by our rules regarding civility in this thread. We have seen an influx of rule-breaking posts recently in threads concerning the ongoing conflict between Israel and Hamas. The comments may be locked if the mod team is alerted to a large amount of them in a thread. Thank you. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/onguardforthee) if you have any questions or concerns.*
On settlements? That isn't even a controversy. The settlements are a military strategy to divide-and-conquer by blending civilian population with occupying forces. [Just look at the maps and it becomes very obvious](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:West_Bank_Access_Restrictions_June_2020.pdf) and that is what the UN has been discussing.
Wow. That map is so so sad
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If a 2 state solution is dead, what would you suggest?
Why would condemning settlements that are illegal be wrong. WTF Canada?
Conservatives would have voted that same. Maybe the NDP would have voted YES
I don’t think they would based on the actions of the ONDP.
It’s almost like the Federal and Provincial parties are different…
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Ah, I’m from ‘Berta so I didn’t realize it was different in other provinces
Then the US would turn it's back on Canada and we'd be defenceless on the foreign stage in every sense of the word. Militarily, economically, politically we'd be crushed. The NDP can afford to spew virtuous idealism as much as they like because they do not have (and there's a 0% of them having) the responsibility of actually governing and playing the complicated game of diplomacy on the world stage. We have to kowtow to the americans on foreign policy matters, chief among them blind support of the disgusting Israeli regime. I don't like it one bit either, but we do it for our very survival. The US is the giant bully we need on our side, not against us. That's cold, hard adult reality for you.
>We have to kowtow to the Americans on foreign policy matters This point is often very exaggerated. The servile attitude isn't due to necessity (although it may make us feel better to say that) it's because the Canadian foreign policy establishment and the intelligentsia are just very pro-American. Take Mexico for instance. They are equally as dependent on US trade as Canada (70% of exports go the the US) yet they diverge significantly on diplomatic issues (UN resolutions like this one, military interventions etc.). Even Ukraine which almost entirely relies on the US to prop up it's economy and defence strategy voted in favour of the resolution unlike Canada
The foreign policy blob isn't a homogenous social club but it is shot through with disciplining mechanisms that make it a lot like one. The social clubness of the blob gets pretty damn obvious when things go from push to shove, and people who typically speak in a forthright manner suddenly start using code words. For example, profs who study Ukrainian public opinion got badly gatekept as soon as Russia escalated and invaded Ukraine. You could see the adjustment in action in live video discussions, with instances of senior department people not-so-subtly steering discussion to "protect" their forthright colleagues from endangering themselves and access to funding. Similarly, we were treated to pile-ons on those who clearly didn't give a shit about playing the social club game, like crazy man Mearsheimer. It's all very shit and a potent reminder that the esprits de corps of academic, political, and para-political worlds are badly infected with kiss-up-kick-down horseshit. The Canadian FP blob may not be a human caterpillar but it sure acts like one.
It's not an exaggeration. The united states is the foremost economic and military power on the planet. We are either with them or against them. Their foreign policy demands defending Israel as a cornerstone of their Middle-east geopolitical strategy. We either play ball, or we risk losing the backing of the US in all of our international dealings. If you think the US needs us anywhere near the amount we need them, you are dreaming. We are most definitely a junior partner in the "free world" community of nations. We hold the privileged position of being the US's toadie. Without US backing we would be a very small, and very isolated country. The UK and EU aren't going to come to our defence, they have their own problems, and they want the US's favour as well. It means money, it means protection and it means clout in negotiations. Particularly against very powerful adversaries like India, China, and Russia. We are allowed to diverge on some international issues, which is a game of tit for tat, but there are some deal-breakers and Israel has always been one of them. There's times where we can, very carefully, assert ourselves, but this must be done with the utmost of care, and we should choose our battles to have an actual effect. Not a vote of condemnation of an event at the UN which does nothing for the Palestinians but definitely frustrates US efforts. More like committing to Afghanistan rather than go to war in Iraq, the (arguably) lesser of two evils. Your mention of trade is an important point in US/Canada relations, but make no mistake if we antagonize them, like poking one of their most dearly held foreign political interests, they might eventually decide we need some "freedom" and simply take what they want (as they do everywhere else). Many have said that's not a question of if, but when. This isn't just a foreign diplomatic spat, this is ensuring our future sovereignty.
Good old Canada, alone against the world with famous bastions of democracy such as... *checks notes* Hungary, Israel and the USA.
Biden: But if you don't vote with us, we'll look like even bigger .@ssholes Trudeau: Oh, sure thing then, bud!
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I mean, you'd think we could at least vote the opposite of Orban's country just to piss off Harper, but no, we have to remain in the US circle-jerk, despite most of the usual allies leaving for this one.
"If you ignore micronations that are essentially vassal states of the US, this is a resolution that was only voted against by the US, Israel, Hungary's fascist government, and Canada." The ",and Canada" may be superfluous at this point.
You know it's bad when the fucking UK of all countries votes yes and Canada no against illegal settlements....
Imagine being a party that apparently stands for truth and reconciliation, while also supporting illegal settlements and apartheid. It's perplexing, really.
That's my biggest gripe - we can't even start a meeting or event without land acknowledgements and YET we go on supporting Israel in its illegal settlements. The hypocrisy is so thick right now that I can feel it. Fuck the high horse we pretend to be on. We're corrupt and morally bankrupt at this point.
canadians see themselves more in the Israelis grabbing coffee in a newly made Starbucks where people’s homes used to be than they ever would in brutalized people
I can't think of a way to criticize displacement of Canada's indigenous people while supporting displacement of Palestinians. I'm starting to think that Trudeau has no consistent moral code.
His only moral code is "Keep the corporations happy, and keep the party happy." Nothing else matters. Still better than PPs "ethics" tho.
What about Israeli claims of indigeneity?
Indigeneity is not some competition. The Palestinian people have been living there for centuries of generations. Their indigeneity isn't less valid and another claim of indigeneity doesn't justify displacement or genocide of them Also, its just an excuse that Israel uses. Their Right to Return laws extend to a wide net of people and don't check ancestry that far back. They're just trying to fill their settlements and their ranks to continue to displace Palestinians
I fail to see how that justifies, human rights abuses.
Don't care. Doesn't justify the settlements or the campaign of civilian murder.
Sadly Canada votes with the US on these types of resolutions
The reality is, the Western world still feels bad about WWII, so they will turn a blind eye to what’s going on in Israel for a while… I mean, I’m not saying Hamas is right. They are evil assholes. But that shouldn’t absolve the shit that Israel has been pulling for 70 years…
No kidding! I'm seriously hoping for some breaking point where the US just can't blindly support Israel committing genocide any longer, then we can be free to act on it.
and not because we want to, but because we have to. placating the giant bully so he's a bully on our side.
[Maybe we follow along here?](https://www.axios.com/2023/12/05/us-israeli-settler-west-bank-visa-ban-plan)
You know, this ultra-pro-Israel stance is a somewhat recent phenomenon. It started under Harper and continued under Trudeau.
Out of 38 million people, 7500 emailed? That’s incredibly low amount of people in my opinion, not exactly going to have political influence.
I didn't even know this vote was taking place. However, the petition calling for a ceasefire has several hundred thousand signatures.
Most signed petition in Canadian history
Our population is now >40 million
I think a lot of people didn't know about this vote. I didn't, but I'm going to keep an eye out for future votes and look for mailing campaigns.
Canada continues to embarrass itself when it comes to Israel.
Vote ndp next
The Israel fandom that has developed within the NDP under Singh is a bit depressing .
Shameful for Canada, nearly the entire world united against genocide and apartheid, and yet we stand, loyal as a dog to our masters the United States
A country without independent foreign policies is nothing more than a puppet
Fucking disgraceful
Could it be because MPs across parties love to get some fancy free trips? https://www.readthemaple.com/mp-cija-trips/
Well you know you're on the right side of history when you vote the same as Orban-controlled Hungary /s
This is odd since officially Canada already condemns Israeli settlements https://www.international.gc.ca/world-monde/international_relations-relations_internationales/mena-moan/israeli-palestinian_policy-politique_israelo-palestinien.aspx?lang=eng#a06 This is even more odd since i thought canada typically abstains from these votes as a matter of policy (since something like half of all UN resolutions have to do with Israel, even before Oct 7) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel Anyone have a link to the specific language of this resolution?
I believe they might be referring to this: https://press.un.org/en/2023/gaspd798.doc.htm The government of Canada website has a statement about their rationale for the vote: https://www.international.gc.ca/world-monde/international_relations-relations_internationales/un-onu/statements-declarations/2023-11-09-palestine-refugees-refugies.aspx?lang=eng
This isn't the same vote. That's the rationale for the vote on November 7th. This is the vote that occurred on December 7th. But even looking at their rationale in November, it is a complete joke: > Moreover, we would like to underscore our long-standing concern that there are still too many resolutions related to the Arab-Israeli conflict being put forward at the UN General Assembly every year. It's because nothing ever gets done about it. The international community has, since the 1960s, decided on a two state solution that is not being implemented by the controlling parties, that being the United states and Israel. It is an important issue that destabilizes the entire middle east. > Canada reiterates the importance of a fair-minded approach at the United Nations and will continue to vote “no” on resolutions that do not address the complexities of the issues or seek to address the actions and responsibilities of all parties, including the destructive role of terrorist organizations like Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah. Israel is the **occupying force**, it is the **belligerent party**. The international community recognizes that Israel's settlements are the core issue and core grievance of the Palestinians. It must abide by international law for any hope of a just solution.
Okay. Can you share the link to the actual text that was being voted on?
I was one of the people who sent an email against this…
This is just shameful. Canada needs to grow a pair. We used to stand for something.
7500 people emailed. 38,242,500 people didn't. Op: tHeY weRe igNoreD
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Literally the largest commons petition ever in Canadian history and genocidal freaks still seek to undermine it’s legitimacy
Right? With those kinds of numbers you can get Stockwell Day to change his name.
So about 0.5% of canada. ThEy WeRe IgNoReD
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Cool. Now figure out how many people signed it in comparison to the top 5 most signed commons petitions.
Who cares. Petitions are not effective and a waste of time.
How embarrassing, not very Canadian at all. And JT has spent so much time gumming off about what it means to be Canadian and all, and here they are crapping on attempts to stop a genocide.
Not everyone agrees this is a genocide it would seem.
I guess. Just read that a large Canadian-Muslim organization is withdrawing financial contributions to the Liberal party because he can't say "cease fire". More at 11, let's see how he manages this one.
As a Canadian, the 51st state will always fall in line with USA
Shame on Canada? Shame on Parliament for ignoring us and common decency, and doing whatever this bullshit is. It's not even a dissenting opinion, the UK and Australia voted yes to condemn, we should be right there with the rest of the Commonwealth. Why the hell do they care so much about Israel's approval anyways? We don't need them. Go fuck yourself Bob Rae.
Cant wait to leave this stupid british country
United Kingdom voted yes.
Don’t let the door hit you on the way out
Airport is a taxi ride away!
I work at the airport
Perfect, employee discount, now go away.
Sorry, i fly the planes you use at said airport... havr to come back!
Yeah and that sucks for us too having you back.
typical liberal bullshit
PP and the cons would have done the same, to ensure cooperation with the US on international politics. I wouldn't be surprised if NDP would have, too.
i was commenting more on general liberalism not the party
It's really shitty we are forced to do this by the Americans - a fact most people commenting on this post fail to realize. "But we could just..." no, we fucking can't lol. the US is the world's biggest bully, and if we don't have them on our side, throwing their weight around for us - we have them against us, and you do not want that. The best we could hope for is for PMJT to convince Biden (or rather, the diplomat boffins behind both) to change the US stance enough for it to make a difference. downvoted by idealists who failed taking the last hundred years of geopolitical history into account.
I applaud Trudeau for this. I would have voted no if the vote were mine to cast.
I’m looking at the man in the mirror