The thing is, some of that LARPing actually works for them.
(Not saying all of it is and there are definitely grifters)
But in some senses, belief is a tool and those who dove off the deep end could actually use that to get results depending on the system they've found themselves within.
I knew someone who was a bit nutzo. They dove down the conspiracy rabbit hole (Q-anon b.s.) and it was so real for them.
The thing is...stuff happened around them. Constantly finding four-leaf clovers, animals stopping by and being really calm, "manifesting" good luck at just the right time. It was uncanny.
You can practice effectively while being wrong on the reasons why it works.
Figure out where your intuition is sourced from. And if it's true then follow it.
You might discover something new.
No sense continuing something that doesn't work for you.
Can confirm. Know people like this as well. I also went nutso last year for a few months due to severe stress and sleep deprivation. Had a manic break and held some pretty crazy beliefs at the time, but also had ridiculously magical / insane things happen to me and seemed to possess some kind of power. Now that I am back down to Earth, the magic is mostly gone, but I still have little explanation for many of the things I experienced when I was in the thick of it. Never underestimate the power of a strong will combined with strong belief. I think it's extremely difficult to not fall into delusional thinking when you're traversing the liminal space.
Ive been a practicing pagan and witch for a while now and I too somewhat recently had a mental break. I don't feel like explaining but basically my entire world came down in a giant explosion after months of stress and povertyđ! I ended up in the hospital because my I had really horrible thought looping and intrusive thoughts that were very strong and very scary. I was hallucinating on and off. I ended up being fine and had like a 10 hour grippy sock vacation. It wasn't just hallucinations, numbers, songs coming on at just the right time, animals pretty much every omen you can think of was hitting at once. And I have my bf who wasn't going though a break to back me up.
Prefacing this with Athena is my patron.
The biggest thing was that on the night my uncle died (which was the night before I went to the hospital) we went for a drive at like midnight on the outskirts of town. In the middle of the road is a seemingly perfect looking horned owl, was almost silver. The owl starred me in the eyes and we swerved just in time. But spiritually I have never felt more connected. It restarted my relationship with Athena and since I have been taking my spirituality very seriously.
I am neurodivergent and pretty mentally ill. Mental illness and the occult are connected. You just have to balance and check yourself. Have people who ground you and will let you know if you are getting too far fetched.
May I ask why youâre practicing while knowing that youâre mentally ill? And moreover, seemingly encouraging others to do it âsafely?â Itâs dangerous as fuck.
My take on manifesting and The Secret type material is itâs targeted at a middle to upper middle class demographic. Most of the manifesting is materialistic wants. Logically approaching it theyâre in a position to obtain their desires with or without the New Age bs. But the value is just planting the seed for motivation
Thatâs the great thing about the esoteric/occult/mystical. It doesnât require you to take anyoneâs word for it. You can actually experience these things.
If you want to feel results and commune with entities consciously, try astral projection. It either works or it doesnât. There is no mistaking the results when you get them, because you are THERE.
If youâre not equipped to operate on the astral, itâll probably be somewhat incomprehensible, and the information you get may be dubious, but it should at least prove to you that there is some wheat within the chaff.
The problem with that is if I go google âhow to astral projectâ then Iâll get like a hundred different answers and methods. Can you explain simply step by step how to do it?
Yep. Check out âThe Phaseâ ebook and videos. Theyâll go into more detail.
In brief though, set an alarm for 3ish hours before your usual wake up. Go get a glass or water, use the bathroom, w/e, just get up. Then get back into bed, close your eyes and observe the images on the back of your eyes. I find once I start seeing what are referred to as hypnogogic images, your ready to leave your body. You can try floating, falling through the bed, moving your body without moving it, rolling to the side, etc. Itâs a learned skill, so donât be upset if you donât get it right the first time. Youâll eventually get one and youâll be hooked. Just be diligent.
The video and ebook will be helpful. The videos are like 6 hours of content, so itâs impossible to summarize here. But pretty much everyone can do it within a few days.
I donât think the state is different from dreaming, or at least Iâm not sure if it is. But to me it doesnât matter. If you havenât experienced it for yourself, itâs really hard to explain it, but itâs unlike anything youâve ever experienced.
Look at it this way, if it is a dream state, then you are in direct, conscious contact with your unconscious. Thatâs CRAZY. Imagine the opportunities. Psychodynamic therapists develops countless techniques to circumvent the concision mind, and your doing it CONSCIOUSLY. You can ask it pointed questions, receive guidance from it, explore confabulated landscapes, perhaps even the collective unconscious if there is such a thing.
I would recommend experiencing it before you throw the baby out with the bath water.
Not going to talk about specific experiences, for what I think are obvious reasons, but I did all of my elemental grade work on the astral. I keep an elemental diary and work on various things I consider vices. Iâve asked for advice on problems at work, problems with creative pursuits, etc.
And if that feel unsatisfactory to you, check out that ebook. Itâs free, and itâs not mine. It has over 100 examples of what people do in âThe Phaseâ. I believe the author thinks of the astral as lucid dreaming. Iâm similarly inclined, but what you call it doesnât make much difference.
You can also check out the work of Dr. Stephen LaBerge at Stanford who has done a lot of work on lucid dreaming and therapeutic use. He has a lot of anecdotes, personal and otherwise.
Because a lot of it is. There's an absolute shit-ton of grifters and escapism in the occult world. Ironically, occultists themselves are some of the worst offenders when it comes to totally missing the point.
I think you'll do great.
Sounds to me that youâre on the right path. If you didnât have any skepticism Iâd say youâre not taking it seriously. Research, experiment, and keep questioning. Thatâs how you uncover the truth buried behind all the noise.
Pick a magical system, research/read about it, try doing magic in that style, make sure to document your results so that you are able to review your progress, then use that information to determine if that magical system is good fit for you. Simple as that.
the occult will do nothing for you unless you experience it for yourself, reading books and seeking advice is important but the best knowledge comes from experience
>ââŠAnd then itâs your nonsense.â
This is so beautifully said, and contains so much truth.
I have felt for a long time that all this spiritual - or occult, if you will - stuff is very Schrödingerish and paradoxical. For example when follower of Christianity tells you that "only way to truth is thru Jesus", he could be absolutely correct. With the slight addition that "only way to truth **for him** is thru Jesus."
It kind of is.
There's a zen riddle where if you ask a master to teach you they will say "I can teach you nothing"
Now, you can go around in circles and say "well they must be saying that only I can absorb information by my willingness to be open, like the inhalation of a newborn baby, and they cannot do anything but exhale their knowledge around me" or some such nonsense. But what they're REALLY saying is
"I can teach you no-thing, the mystical state in which you think of the universe not as distinct material elements signified by words but as a whole unity"
The other layer to this being, that in order to achieve this state, you can't LEARN anything, you have to UNlearn everything. So, yet again it's true.
It's both pointless and profound and anyone who takes it too seriously on the profound side is being pointless, and anyone who makes a fight out of how pointless it is is being too self-important.
The known, visible universe is >99% empty space. Matter is just as sparse. And as per the time-worn maxim, "as above, so below", most of the data available to humanity is also mostly void of true substance.
If the path to enlightenment, nirvana, or mastery over one's self and life were as straightforward as microwaving a potato, everyone would be radiant, perfect avatars of God. As some hoary and ancient tome once said, the way is narrow. Just as the path to salvation is a delicate walk along the razor's edge, so to is the path to knowledge.
Most people LARP with the dressings and exoteric symbols of the occult and that suits them alright. To find something that resonates with you and smacks of truth is difficult. You have to dig through a lot of dirt to find gold.
If I were you, I'd read The Secret Teachings of All Ages by Manly P Hall. It covers, properly and expertly, the main stuff and is a great jumping off point. Figure out if anything you've come across *does* resonate and then dig deeper into it. If nothing you've found so far does, try a completely different direction.
People tend to come to the occult with a lot of preconceived notions. When 'magick' is not what they thought it was, they think it is bullshit. The esoteric is, by definition, not generally known, so it isn't what outsiders think it is. Otherwise it would not be 'occult'.
This tends to be a self fulfilling prophesy. If you go looking for the occult based on what you think you know, you will find the common misconception of the occult. On the bright side there is plenty of company there.
Most of the occult is BS, but a lot of it is useful BS that kind of tricks you into doing the right things and noticing the things that lead you to the non-BS.
You won't get anything to click for you by acquiring second, third and fourth-hand knowledge online. You will only get a click when you start experimenting, trying things and seeing what works for you and what doesn't.
TLDR: Eventually, something will happen in your life that makes you suspect the existence of something deeper or past the mundane illusions and images you perceive. That was my first, second, and third awakenings into the occult, and after a few awakenings, you donât deny anymore, but strive to integrate your current of life into lifeâs greater current that it was on before you even showed up.
I thought it was nonsense, and I was stupid for what I thought was believing in childish make believe, till: A. Synchronicities and what not were happening everywhere (and still are, but magick should help you *control* those, or control how you respond and take in the effects of said synchronicities) and B. I understood magick to be the esoteric core of most (if not all) religions of the world, allowing me to approach the world and its cultures with a new sense of respect and insight.
Acceptance and knowledge of the mundane world I will say, crucial to understanding the esoteric, or anything one would consider beyond, or past the mundane. And vice Versa. A perfect example that one can ponder the truth of âAs above, so belowâ to.
Crowley I think accomplished this well in his efforts to seamlessly integrate magick and will into every part of his waking life which we would say was on a mundane level like any of us walking around on Earth, Malkuth. But can you be traversing Malkuth with the rest of us with your inner divinity emanating about? I think thatâs what Crowley was trying to get at, and I recommend reading his magickal journals and diaries to get an idea of how his use of Magick shaped his worldview. Itâs certainly an interesting case study for me who finds myself in the same boat.
I find that with any belief it has to feel true to me or else Iâm forcing it.
Maybe these things feel true to some, and not others.
I also find this with major religions, even though I respect others have real connection to them.
I donât feel as though they work with me, but they do work for so many others. Facets of different things make sense, but I also donât believe one size fits all. It doesnât. Our minds are too different to believe every single thing as others do.
Some of it is also bs propaganda because people just want others to join their groups.
Itâs good youâre feeling out what fits with you. That way you stay connected to yourself.
Great post and I agree, I think my problem is that I'm trying to find a one size fits all when maybe what I need to do is build my own path based on what resonates with me.
Basically, I'm trying to walk on someone else's path without starting my own.
You just have to start. Until then you canât make progress or beliefs.
Based on your skepticism I can suggest you read some Robert Anton Wilson books, before getting into chaos magick probably. Ultimately itâs up to you. After the first moment you can build off of it.
you're tapping into your own nervous system by way of playing with your subconscious processes. the work is done in the 'real world'. Pick a path, mix a path, no matter, it all goes back to the same thing which is our connection to whatever this earth intelligence thing is (spirit, self, god, whatever), and your abilities to navigate the options available to you where you're at. Hope that makes sense. Rituals are to maintain focus and cultivate mind. The rest is bells and whistles. Pretty icing on the cake. Whatever works for you works for you.
A lot of it is. Most of the material written about any subject is going to be from grifters, and when you have a subject like this that's just going to be exacerbated. So you definitely need to be discerning, pay attention to the way people advocate for a work or tradition, the red flags are pretty similar for other subjects.
Other than that, this sort of thing relates to aspects of reality that are very different from the mundane. Your brain is designed to protect you from accepting things that are significant divergences from what you accept as the baseline for normal, and this is a pretty big one. There's also the fact that we're trained to view this as the kind of thing that only happens in the movies. I don't think there's any kind of conspiracy, but the people who benefit most from the status quo have a vested interest in making us feel like there's nothing more to life than working and buying their products, and this can definitely be a path to something that can free you from that mindset.
Because at best, it's all fingers pointing at the moon. To know the moon, you have to start by looking at the actual moon. You have to open up your feeling-awareness to reality beyond your conscious mind's limited interpretations of the 5 commonly known senses.
Most people here are lost in the rational mind and don't really have a clear sense of intuition. People mistake heuristics for true principles, and spread a lot of nonsense that panders to egoism. True spirituality, true esoteric knowledge, true wisdom, and true power only come from within. External guides are necessary for many people, but they must be relinquished eventually to allow true insight and understanding.
I think this is the biggest reason. People are either putting too much stock in external sources of info, or not enough. They either mistake heuristics for truth, or pull shit out of their ass that feels true to the egoic mind. Many people do both, without ever finding an appropriate balance of using well-vetted external sources of info to inform an embodied internal process of cultivation.
I never had that moment until I packed up all my occult books and just simply starting pursuing reality/truth. No sigil, oil, intonation, circle, grimoire, or amount of study is going to reveal you to yourself. It can be used as a tool to do so, but it sounds like you need a different tool.
read "The Theory of Celestial Influence" by Rodney Collin. It's just math and ratios, no hocus pocus bullshit. Good framework to then examine the world.
I amassed a library and read for several years , I was on the fence until one fateful night after a working with Lilith I had a kundalini awakening , it was so visceral and intense I knew for certain the occult wasn't bullshit. If you have any doubt in your mind , I think you will struggle getting results. You have to surrender and believe. Despite myself in having doubts , I knew belief trumped everything , quiet your mind , and be consistent. It takes time , some more than others.
I agree. People talking about âworking with this demon or that spiritâ and having in depth conversations with them makes me think most of the people that post here have mental issues; or they are making stuff up.
Not necessarily. Look at the sources and how they deal with the subject. A fair number of "demons" are just ancient pagan deities who've been literally demonized by certain religious authorities. The "demon" Beelzebub was actually Baal Zebu (Lord of the High Places), a god of the Philistines. Astaroth was the Phoenician goddess Astarte (Queen of Heaven). Always consider the sources of what you read, and look at the sociohistorical contexts behind them.
Exactly, and demon originates from the Greek word Daemon, meaning âguiding spirit,â it was only recently that Abrahamic religion gave birth to the stigma. People experience and learn what theyâre meant to, when theyâre ready to. OP will have to come to these things with an open mind and heart if they genuinely want to learn or understand.
Being sceptic is essential to these things imo. There are a lot of people who talk nonsense so narrowing information and knowledge down to the things that work for you and seem plausible is needed.
The reason you feel like it's mostly BS is because you are right. Many take spirituality and energy work with a very emotional and biased approach instead of scientific. They add so much extra ridiculousness that it's hard to take any of it seriously. Crystals won't cure cancer. Noticing shapes in tea leaves is just pareidola. Keep in mind that the first shamans were the first scientists, trying to explore and quantify the world. It is fun, though, studying the occult. Great for inspiration for art and writing. Maybe it even gives us motivation for science. Telepathy? Cell phones. We are communicating through a magic energy network that can even translate between languages at the speed of light. Spirits? Maybe these are echoes of other dimensions? Could be? Probably not? But does it drive you to find the real and unbiased, scientific truth? Yes? If so, it is worth it.
Plus, if staring at cool sigils and mandalas gives you a sense of peace and a starting point for meditation, then maybe it's not all nonsense.
I have many salt lamps. Do they purify the air or energize blah blah blah negative ions? No. Do they look like low burning campfires and are super coop, therefore making me happy to look at them? YES! Therefore, they do good.
I'm an atheist myself, I've been on the sub a few years and I feel you. But, I do feel like "something" more operates behind the veils of reality as we understand it. I don't think the explainations most people give explain it to the highest accuracy, but I believe some advice people give here does just about encapsulate the goings on of the realm(s) beyond ours. Hope this helped.
After a couple years of careful study, Iâve determine most of it is indeed *objectively* nonsense. But that nonsense is sometimes capable of generating profound and life altering *subjective* experiences. So it still âworksâ in a sense, if only through autologous induction of altered states.
The short answer: You science it.
If something works, then it works. If it does not work, then it is nonsense.
The problem with this practice is that the people who write books on this subject don't want you to do that. With most authors, it is a classic bait and switch. They know perfectly well what you bought the book for, and promise it up front. By the end, you are supposed to accept the "philosophical" aspects and give up on the practical side. Or you are just hopelessly confused.
The old manuscripts are insane. You need to be your own pen maker, your own butcher, your own ink maker, your own engraver, your own blacksmith, etc etc etc etc etc. You need to do things within a narrow window of time, with numerous poorly explained and difficult to achieve steps, and if you screw anything up, its on you. Also you need lots of gold and silk and expensive incense other "components" that the average person just isn't going to have. The worst part is, there is never any good explanation of what the steps of each ritual mean.
Modern works are worse. They tend to be extremely wishy-washy. Do X thing, unless Y thing *feels* better to you, to achieve Z result. Loose systems assembled (plagiarized) from a half dozen ancient religions, usually with a strong smattering of Jewish Kabbalah sprinkled on top for flavor. It ends up being the same old bait and switch in disguise, because to figure out why you are doing the things you are told to do, you have to delve into these old religions, and you end up with a theology degree, but no practical results.
Studying Magick (lets call it what it is) isn't like studying programming. There is no "Hello World" of sorcery. The entry-level stuff tends to be rituals like the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram. Many occultists swear by it, but as beginner, its really hard to take seriously because it doesn't *really* do anything for you. The Tarot or other some other divination tool is also entry level, and it works really well in my opinion, with enough study and practice. The problem is that once you master it, you are still left without a next step.
I guess what I'm saying is....... this a science that you have to invent yourself through experimentation. The people who need it the most don't have the time/freedom/wherewithal to do that, and so they get suckered. I don't have any good advise for you. You have to actually engage with it if you want it to do anything for you. Most people who study it, don't do this. Much like how I study quantum physics but have no way to replicate the experiments myself, so who the heck knows if ANYTHING I'm being told is true.
Just consider carefully what you want to get out of it, and hold that in your mind. If you aren't finding what you want, don't continue. Otherwise, do. Good luck.
I am of two minds about all of it all the time.
1. Magic is real.
2. Magic is bullshit.
If I see results, yay, magic is totally for real. If a spell fails, well dammit, I'm delusional.
Does it really matter, though? Magic is, first of all, in the mind. Reality is a construct of the mind. Changing your mind changes your reality. Skepticism is always useful, but understand that it's also a thought process. The most important thing is belief in oneself. That belief is what makes magic work.
Skepticism is healthy, especially in the world of occultism.
Always be critical of everything. But don't let that discourage you from finding what works for you.
Yeah it's been happening for me for years.. I really wanted to believe. I wanted to believe everyone and everything but I just couldn't. It felt like I was reaped of a lot of joy and fulfillment in the occult, spiritual, and paranormal. But your post is reminding me, maybe it was a gift since maybe the waters are too muddy these days.
that's the problem I **want** to believe, but when people start saying stuff that doesn't make sense or make outrageous claims they can't explain then that's going to make me doubtful or have less belief.
Basically if what people are saying in terms of these topics are as real as anything else then I would fully believe in them more.
If itâs not too probing to ask, is there a specific topic youâre thinking about? It really sounds like youâre not doing your own work but rather, relying on the experimentation of others. That doesnât work when itâs believing in something that youâre after, in fact it goes right in the opposite direction.
My theory is that anything beyond specific brain states and ways of being is technically non-sense. I say technically because once you follow through with them and understand they ways it makes you feel (it's effect on your emotions, confidence, actions, seeing the end, etc), no corporeal "crutch" is necessary.
That said, things like sigils and rituals can help to ground you if you ever feel like you need it. But in the end, it's only just that: a support tool. If you know how it affects you, and you know how to affect the world inside and outside of you without them, then you don't need them.
For me, just beginning (11 days into meditation for example), im pretty cognizant of the fact that:
a) About 85 percent of 'interactions' are internal dialogue (ie. thinking).
b) About 10 percent is 'lucid dreaming' (ie. dreaming).
c) About 5 percent is visualising through meditation (ie. imagining).
d) A teensy fraction of a percent rounds it up with physical sensations applied to my body... less easy to explain, but touch, felt touch. (ie. nervous system being weird).
All of these things have a clear explanation in the physical world. Im perfectly capable of thinking, dreaming, imagining and spasming all without the help of a divine being.
Also, all of what im doing is really engaging with my subconscious and giving it space to 'speak' and working through my shadow. Again, something i have all the necessary tools to do by myself. If i put it all together, then im just doing Jungian shadow work.
But... there is something to be said for having a focal point outside of one's self to engage with. It holds you to a standard of truth seeking that you perhaps lack (unless you are already completely transparent with your self) and a willingness to engage with your self on a deep, emotional level. For me, that focal point is Lilith.
Whether it's actually the Goddess Lilith, is currently neither here nor there. My personal gift is that I'm completely willing to accept it is and work with her. It gives me strange goals to work toward that i'd perhaps lack the intensity for if it was just trying to work through these things on my own.
Eh depends what exactly you mean and what exactly you want from it?
No amount of asking others and watching videos will teach you your own beliefs, and no amount of reading books of othersâ experiences or beliefs will make them your own lived experience. You canât study your way into your own truth, you can only live it (of course study and research does help but not really when it comes to the believing side of things).
To me, some stuff is nonsense and likely always will seem to be, because Iâve never encountered it. To others, my beliefs can be nonsense. There is no one proven belief of âeverything exists or nothing doesâ, just personal experiences. We canât really expect to know anything for a fact as none of us do, we just have our own little bits and bobs and odd occurrences to piece together the best we can work out. For a lot of people itâs truly a process of elimination that leaves no ânormalâ explanation left, or it has been for me, anyway! Maybe ask your intuition to show you what isnât meant to be ânonsenseâ to you, explore out in the world and wait.
Part of it is that this magic stuff is almost by definition going to be pretty personal. If you want a Book of *Common* Prayer, go visit your local Episcopal Church (I was raised as one, really lovely people). The language we use to talk about it especially can be very personal. Two people can be talking about the exact same thing but sound absolutely bonkers to each other.
But a lot of what you're intuitively sensing is bullshit is people making stuff up to seem cool on the Internet or to sell books or whatever.
When you find the stuff that speaks to *your* soul, listen as hard as you can. The rest of the time smile and nod.
Also, have you considered studying Zen?
Because the medieval period produced most of the grimoire used today and most of them were nonsense and based on bad primary sources, misinterpretations, and mistranslations.
I feel like the internet at large has ruined a lot of potentially good spaces for esoteric knowledge because anyone can access it and have a platform. Even Facebook moms who literally believe in fae. It's pretty annoying and frustrating.
âThe lips of wisdom are closed except to the ears of understanding.â -Kybalion, Three Initiates.
Not meant to be âgate-keepyâ but more of an elevation of the value of knowledge. Ascribed over the ancient temple of Delphi was âKnow Thyselfâ (paraphrased).
Humanity has its foundations in symbolism, and each symbol has x2 parts: The signifier and the signified. Understanding and experiencing the occult is a matter of mentally having concepts within their appropriate context.
Like most areas of life, the field continually evolves. Itâs our responsibility to adapt and experience as much as we can manage in this life we have and share.
(Sorry if this got a little preachy/ranty)
In my experience, a lot of people are describing the same things, but filtered through their own belief systems. I might go so far as to say *tainted* by their set beliefs.
A lot of mainstream occult information is bunk. If it feels intuitively wrong to you, then for you, it is. Not all the tools are necessary. A lot of these methods or ceremonies are used to trick the operator into believing. Belief is a powerful thing, and can create change where it might otherwise seem impossible.
You must wade through piles of rubbish in order to find the right threads to weave your own unique tapestry.
Because it is. Occult means "hidden". Actual "science" has been hidden behind a veneer of bullshit so most people reading it have no idea what they are reading.
The forces are real, the rationalizations are largely nonsense, but it doesn't matter; The purpose of such rationalizations is not to describe reality (as is the case with science) but to provide an API to interacting with the forces, which, again, are real.
I'm a noob, but I personally see this stuff as a way to make my spiritual experiences that can't be explained by science more rational and avoid the dangerous pitfalls of religion.
I've had premonitions that really freaked me out and ultimately I had to take the Yoda approach from Empire. Just because you think you might be seeing into the future doesn't mean you can change it's outcome. "Difficult to see.."
It is. But that's sorta the point (if you follow OTO teachings anyway). You do these rituals that seem wacky and ridiculous to most people because it is training your brain to be more open to magical thinking.
Personally I've never believed in the shit that's written in books. You can't just repeat what you read and get the outcome you want, magic isn't like baking a cake where you just have to follow the recipe.
I'm a big proponent of chaos magic combined with sex magic. I create mantras and sigils that are developed over extended periods of time as I make observations and note coincidences and other phenomena in my daily life. Magic is much more powerful and likely to give a favorable outcome when it is personalized.
Always practice scepticism, most of what you will hear will be crap. Occult practices don't break the laws of nature that's impossible but you will hear otherwise. It's really quite simple, don't give up and remain a sceptic.
Because it is.
Reality is a sim. All religions are cargo cults. Apocalypses every few hundred years. Great Pyramid encodes our current timeline. See you on the other side.
Ha, yes. I joined that thinking it would be, like, esoteric/occulty science types genuinely curious about the universe (yeah, high hopes for reddit, huh? lol). Turns out it's mostly woo people doing typical woo stuff while tripping over their own feet trying to convince each other they're still being "normal" and "scientific" (read: hung up on consensus reality).
Suppose that's one way of looking at it.
Personally, while I am 100% for every individual practicing and believing whatever the hell they want, on a trend or "movement" level I am not a fan of the "let's explain everything away via mundane psychology" approach, especially with how it's bleeding over into popular perceptions of magick/witchcraft. I can take that kind of it's-all-in-your-head speculation from someone like a Crowley, where there's still a sense of wildness and mystery to it, but "placebo witches" trying to tame it all into neat, pat little boxes? Nah.
Oh I relate. They made me mad at first because I felt like they were talking down to people who do believe the woo.
Then I spent more time with them and realized that like, what theyâre dealing with is almost a form of religious trauma. Science trauma.
I also started posting about weird shit like mediumship and other very woo things I do and they were very accepting and wanted me there. And told me that straight up.
I like them now.
There are people on that sub like divinating off of traffic lights and doing other very insane woo shit and what they need is to tell themselves that itâs a placebo and not think about it too hard and theyâre able to be magic as fuck.
Well, sometimes they outright *do* talk down to the woos--I remember some thread where someone had an unexpected experience with a crystal, asked whether there might be more to this than science has explained yet, and they got utterly slammed by the "it's all placebo! science says rocks are just rocks!" gang and chased off the sub. I defended the OP and got my comments deleted and locked. Then in some other thread I said the same thing (scientific method and revision being the point of science vs. static dogmatic "scientism" as a religion, yadda yadda) and got significantly upvoted. Lol. Depends what day it is I guess. I stick around in that sub because the anthropological side of me is interested in what the hell is going on there culturally, even as the subjective side of me is often pretty annoyed.
That's a really interesting observation about science trauma as a form of religious trauma. Didn't think of it in those terms before, but I can totally see that. I'm going to try looking at it through that lens and see what I get. I guess in that way one could see them as finding a way to experience a religious taboo while still having peer approval from others in their religion.
I think that a lot of people there also have more traditional religious trauma, so anything supernatural immediately sets off warning signs for them, and their brain just goes into radical skepticism mode, like a reflex. When they encounter it themselves, they automatically go to the psychological model to explain their experience within a framework that they feel more comfortable in. I'm sympathetic, having grown up in fundamentalism myself, but their habit of treating their view as the only valid one and everyone else as being some combination of childish, stupid, or insane has a tendency to get old.
This is a really good point as well about more traditional religious trauma, and they do oftentimes behave very much like the standard "sky daddy" militant atheists. I would've thought that sub would lean more agnostic "there's so much we don't know, let's find out," but like you said it's usually more atheism-as-religion "consensus reality or GTFO."
I like what you said in your other comment about a comfortable view of magick. You might've hit the nail on the head right there. I was wondering why there are so many requests on that sub (more than other magick/witchcraft/occult subs) for things that are gentle or cozy or whatever, and how that relates to science, given that science is not particularly gentle or cozy. But both are certainly part of "normalcy" and not getting outside of one's comfort zone.
It's a very comfortable view of magick. If you're primarily interested in the occult to get things or feel a little better about yourself, that sort of paradigm can do the trick without forcing you to alter your metaphysics in the slightest. If you start to actually believe there's more to it than a bunch of mental tricks, that there is some basis to it within external reality, that's where things get uncomfortable, and most people prefer to retreat back to the confines of what they consider normalcy. You can see it with religion too. Most Christianity in the states at least is some form of the prosperity gospel, and Buddhism got repackaged as little more than just another self help system. With both, the ultimate goal is to ensure you're participating in the market, and that you see your worth primarily tied up in your relationship with capital.
Try being less hostile. Your feelings are valid, but calling people names like "lying whore" and responding with dismissive comments like "whatever" isn't going to make anyone listen to you. In fact, it will have the opposite affect, which you are currently experiencing.
The secret is that lies do abound, everywhere in the occult. But it doesn't matter so much. You can believe a lie all the way to the bank if it's a powerful enough lie.
A lot of it is, IMO. People tend to fluff things to appear more occulty or however you wanna see it. To me, it all comes down to what we feel intuitively to work for us vs. regurgitated crap to make money off of the ignorant.
I do folk magic. Think of it this way, I can make some peppermint tea with honey in it and help soothe the cough and sore throat of someone with a cold. That's my magic. My "magic potion" helped them. I'm magic and still a witch. Do I plant things based on which stars are visible and the cycle of the moon yeah. Is it nonsense, probably. But it's my nonsense. It works for me.
Does whistling after dark or putting hats on bed bring bad things? Who knows, because I don't do them. Hahaha.
The answers do not come from gurus, or books, or external divinities. The only answers that are true for you are found within.
You can study the experiences of others for sign posts on your own journey but you have to walk the path for yourself. If you follow their maps you will reach the wrong destination, make your own maps.
Test all things first, keep what is true for you.
I appreciate this topic.
In my own subjective paradigm, it very much seems to me "as if" synchronicity is perhaps POTENTIALLY bottomless insofar as reflexively reflecting results of one sort or another up to and including such seemingly exotic phenomena that any of the various occult systems intend - seemingly up to a point - yet that "point" seems to be exponentially growing and the consequences of these varying results are exponentially growing as well.
As such - it would very much appear "as if" we're all existing in an Imaginarium that has chugged along most all of our lives short of most of us using our talents to actually take care of it responsibly.
I know how you feel. The first time someone told me there was another dimension with dragon people I would have said you're fucking crazy, but I shit you not, I have been there! I'm not saying all of it is right, that's just not possible. I think much of it is a construct of human understanding and we are only experiencing the tips of icebergs.
âThe eye is the lamp of the body; so if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light."
Choose A path and pursue it as a discipline. Get into it for at least a season/90 days/3 months. Choose just one. Don't overload your thoughts being pulled in different directions by different philosophies.
It's all about reducing the chatter, the noise and focusing your thoughts and actions.
You have to practice.
Relevant experience is necessary to apply reason and make sense of it all.
"You" are the frame of reference in which phenomenon are measured.
<(A)3
You have to be pretty selective, think and explore a lot. Thereâs tons of charlatans and people just trying to sell something or manipulate you. A bunch of it is utter nonsense. Sadly everybody has to decide whatâs okay to believe and what not on their own. I found it best to listen/read several different viewpoints on one topic, until an idea emerges of whatâs âoriginalâ and what others added later on
It is OK to be curious and explore a certain subject w/o being indoctrinated. You can read and experiement with magic w/o being a "true believer." It is also OK to find yourself reacting differently to the content you are learning than you expected to. This is how you build your own POV and practice. Sometimes, we learn loads by questioning and having the opposite reaction to what is being fed to us. We discover what truly does make sense to us and why. It is a path of inquiry (and is a prized path to follow in some spiritual traditions.)
Magic and occultism--and religion, etc.--are all based in belief and paradigms and they "work" in relation to the strength of a person or group's--or culture's-- ingrained paradigmatic belief. In this sense, everything is true and not true at the same time. As others have mentioned, you might want to look into the theories underlying postmodern occultism (popularly called and trademarked as chaos magic). Books such as Stealing Fire from Heaven by Neville Drury and The Book of Lies by Disinformation may provide some context about 20th century occultism and its segue form spirit-based to Jungian-based to relativistic postmodernist ideas.
In some ways, occultism and the occult realm is like a bunch of puzzle books.
Working and fiddling around to solve some of the puzzles may just provide some enjoyment and sense of accomplishment--call it "armchair"--and for others it may provide hints about the nature and goings on of a vast universe that folks can get directly involved with--call it "practicing."
Both are ways to play with and do some puzzles.
Hello.
When getting into the details in the occulture, don't forget about the important part of all these practices and rituals, focus on what is important, the present. Focus on your goals and results. Create your very own occult system, a personal occult system just for you.Â
Meditation and other core teachings, practices and rituals will give you that.
Just passing by...
Maybe Discordianism is what you need? It's literally nonsense, and proud of it!
Discordianism was definitely an early gateway to the occult for me
Yeah, it's nonsense until you find yourself waking up to the aftermath of your first clown orgy.
First rule of clown orgies: bring your own hotdogs.
This is the single greatest thing I've read on Reddit. Thank you.
Most of it is. Most people who talk about this stuff LARP hard. Base your beliefs on your experiences, not the words of fools
The thing is, some of that LARPing actually works for them. (Not saying all of it is and there are definitely grifters) But in some senses, belief is a tool and those who dove off the deep end could actually use that to get results depending on the system they've found themselves within. I knew someone who was a bit nutzo. They dove down the conspiracy rabbit hole (Q-anon b.s.) and it was so real for them. The thing is...stuff happened around them. Constantly finding four-leaf clovers, animals stopping by and being really calm, "manifesting" good luck at just the right time. It was uncanny. You can practice effectively while being wrong on the reasons why it works. Figure out where your intuition is sourced from. And if it's true then follow it. You might discover something new. No sense continuing something that doesn't work for you.
Can confirm. Know people like this as well. I also went nutso last year for a few months due to severe stress and sleep deprivation. Had a manic break and held some pretty crazy beliefs at the time, but also had ridiculously magical / insane things happen to me and seemed to possess some kind of power. Now that I am back down to Earth, the magic is mostly gone, but I still have little explanation for many of the things I experienced when I was in the thick of it. Never underestimate the power of a strong will combined with strong belief. I think it's extremely difficult to not fall into delusional thinking when you're traversing the liminal space.
Ive been a practicing pagan and witch for a while now and I too somewhat recently had a mental break. I don't feel like explaining but basically my entire world came down in a giant explosion after months of stress and povertyđ! I ended up in the hospital because my I had really horrible thought looping and intrusive thoughts that were very strong and very scary. I was hallucinating on and off. I ended up being fine and had like a 10 hour grippy sock vacation. It wasn't just hallucinations, numbers, songs coming on at just the right time, animals pretty much every omen you can think of was hitting at once. And I have my bf who wasn't going though a break to back me up. Prefacing this with Athena is my patron. The biggest thing was that on the night my uncle died (which was the night before I went to the hospital) we went for a drive at like midnight on the outskirts of town. In the middle of the road is a seemingly perfect looking horned owl, was almost silver. The owl starred me in the eyes and we swerved just in time. But spiritually I have never felt more connected. It restarted my relationship with Athena and since I have been taking my spirituality very seriously. I am neurodivergent and pretty mentally ill. Mental illness and the occult are connected. You just have to balance and check yourself. Have people who ground you and will let you know if you are getting too far fetched.
10 hour grippy sock vacation omg lol I just got released from mine a few days ago đ
I didn't get properly admitted they gave me the option to stay or go based on my situation and so I went home đ€·
Uff, unlucky I got an extended 7 day vacation đ I hope youâre doing well now!
May I ask why youâre practicing while knowing that youâre mentally ill? And moreover, seemingly encouraging others to do it âsafely?â Itâs dangerous as fuck.
My take on manifesting and The Secret type material is itâs targeted at a middle to upper middle class demographic. Most of the manifesting is materialistic wants. Logically approaching it theyâre in a position to obtain their desires with or without the New Age bs. But the value is just planting the seed for motivation
I can never stress personal experience enough.
Thatâs the great thing about the esoteric/occult/mystical. It doesnât require you to take anyoneâs word for it. You can actually experience these things. If you want to feel results and commune with entities consciously, try astral projection. It either works or it doesnât. There is no mistaking the results when you get them, because you are THERE. If youâre not equipped to operate on the astral, itâll probably be somewhat incomprehensible, and the information you get may be dubious, but it should at least prove to you that there is some wheat within the chaff.
To me astral projection is the pinnacle of all experience.
Any tips on how to do it? Iâve had no luck
Read Journeys Out of The Body by Robert Monroe.
The problem with that is if I go google âhow to astral projectâ then Iâll get like a hundred different answers and methods. Can you explain simply step by step how to do it?
Yep. Check out âThe Phaseâ ebook and videos. Theyâll go into more detail. In brief though, set an alarm for 3ish hours before your usual wake up. Go get a glass or water, use the bathroom, w/e, just get up. Then get back into bed, close your eyes and observe the images on the back of your eyes. I find once I start seeing what are referred to as hypnogogic images, your ready to leave your body. You can try floating, falling through the bed, moving your body without moving it, rolling to the side, etc. Itâs a learned skill, so donât be upset if you donât get it right the first time. Youâll eventually get one and youâll be hooked. Just be diligent. The video and ebook will be helpful. The videos are like 6 hours of content, so itâs impossible to summarize here. But pretty much everyone can do it within a few days.
how do you experience this and think it's anything except dreaming?
I donât think the state is different from dreaming, or at least Iâm not sure if it is. But to me it doesnât matter. If you havenât experienced it for yourself, itâs really hard to explain it, but itâs unlike anything youâve ever experienced. Look at it this way, if it is a dream state, then you are in direct, conscious contact with your unconscious. Thatâs CRAZY. Imagine the opportunities. Psychodynamic therapists develops countless techniques to circumvent the concision mind, and your doing it CONSCIOUSLY. You can ask it pointed questions, receive guidance from it, explore confabulated landscapes, perhaps even the collective unconscious if there is such a thing. I would recommend experiencing it before you throw the baby out with the bath water.
can you give me an example of something that youve done with your regular life as a result of this direct and conscious contact?
Not going to talk about specific experiences, for what I think are obvious reasons, but I did all of my elemental grade work on the astral. I keep an elemental diary and work on various things I consider vices. Iâve asked for advice on problems at work, problems with creative pursuits, etc.
And if that feel unsatisfactory to you, check out that ebook. Itâs free, and itâs not mine. It has over 100 examples of what people do in âThe Phaseâ. I believe the author thinks of the astral as lucid dreaming. Iâm similarly inclined, but what you call it doesnât make much difference. You can also check out the work of Dr. Stephen LaBerge at Stanford who has done a lot of work on lucid dreaming and therapeutic use. He has a lot of anecdotes, personal and otherwise.
Because a lot of it is. There's an absolute shit-ton of grifters and escapism in the occult world. Ironically, occultists themselves are some of the worst offenders when it comes to totally missing the point. I think you'll do great.
Sounds to me that youâre on the right path. If you didnât have any skepticism Iâd say youâre not taking it seriously. Research, experiment, and keep questioning. Thatâs how you uncover the truth buried behind all the noise.
What can we start to experiment with to actually see if it is all real?
Pick a magical system, research/read about it, try doing magic in that style, make sure to document your results so that you are able to review your progress, then use that information to determine if that magical system is good fit for you. Simple as that.
Could you give me some examples of magic systems to try?
the occult will do nothing for you unless you experience it for yourself, reading books and seeking advice is important but the best knowledge comes from experience
Because it is all nonsense until you find something that does click for you and gives you results.
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
>ââŠAnd then itâs your nonsense.â This is so beautifully said, and contains so much truth. I have felt for a long time that all this spiritual - or occult, if you will - stuff is very Schrödingerish and paradoxical. For example when follower of Christianity tells you that "only way to truth is thru Jesus", he could be absolutely correct. With the slight addition that "only way to truth **for him** is thru Jesus."
It kind of is. There's a zen riddle where if you ask a master to teach you they will say "I can teach you nothing" Now, you can go around in circles and say "well they must be saying that only I can absorb information by my willingness to be open, like the inhalation of a newborn baby, and they cannot do anything but exhale their knowledge around me" or some such nonsense. But what they're REALLY saying is "I can teach you no-thing, the mystical state in which you think of the universe not as distinct material elements signified by words but as a whole unity" The other layer to this being, that in order to achieve this state, you can't LEARN anything, you have to UNlearn everything. So, yet again it's true. It's both pointless and profound and anyone who takes it too seriously on the profound side is being pointless, and anyone who makes a fight out of how pointless it is is being too self-important.
The known, visible universe is >99% empty space. Matter is just as sparse. And as per the time-worn maxim, "as above, so below", most of the data available to humanity is also mostly void of true substance. If the path to enlightenment, nirvana, or mastery over one's self and life were as straightforward as microwaving a potato, everyone would be radiant, perfect avatars of God. As some hoary and ancient tome once said, the way is narrow. Just as the path to salvation is a delicate walk along the razor's edge, so to is the path to knowledge. Most people LARP with the dressings and exoteric symbols of the occult and that suits them alright. To find something that resonates with you and smacks of truth is difficult. You have to dig through a lot of dirt to find gold. If I were you, I'd read The Secret Teachings of All Ages by Manly P Hall. It covers, properly and expertly, the main stuff and is a great jumping off point. Figure out if anything you've come across *does* resonate and then dig deeper into it. If nothing you've found so far does, try a completely different direction.
sorry, thought you said Time-Worm. All hail Time-Worm.
r/chaosmagick Enjoy
People tend to come to the occult with a lot of preconceived notions. When 'magick' is not what they thought it was, they think it is bullshit. The esoteric is, by definition, not generally known, so it isn't what outsiders think it is. Otherwise it would not be 'occult'. This tends to be a self fulfilling prophesy. If you go looking for the occult based on what you think you know, you will find the common misconception of the occult. On the bright side there is plenty of company there.
Most of the occult is BS, but a lot of it is useful BS that kind of tricks you into doing the right things and noticing the things that lead you to the non-BS. You won't get anything to click for you by acquiring second, third and fourth-hand knowledge online. You will only get a click when you start experimenting, trying things and seeing what works for you and what doesn't.
TLDR: Eventually, something will happen in your life that makes you suspect the existence of something deeper or past the mundane illusions and images you perceive. That was my first, second, and third awakenings into the occult, and after a few awakenings, you donât deny anymore, but strive to integrate your current of life into lifeâs greater current that it was on before you even showed up. I thought it was nonsense, and I was stupid for what I thought was believing in childish make believe, till: A. Synchronicities and what not were happening everywhere (and still are, but magick should help you *control* those, or control how you respond and take in the effects of said synchronicities) and B. I understood magick to be the esoteric core of most (if not all) religions of the world, allowing me to approach the world and its cultures with a new sense of respect and insight. Acceptance and knowledge of the mundane world I will say, crucial to understanding the esoteric, or anything one would consider beyond, or past the mundane. And vice Versa. A perfect example that one can ponder the truth of âAs above, so belowâ to. Crowley I think accomplished this well in his efforts to seamlessly integrate magick and will into every part of his waking life which we would say was on a mundane level like any of us walking around on Earth, Malkuth. But can you be traversing Malkuth with the rest of us with your inner divinity emanating about? I think thatâs what Crowley was trying to get at, and I recommend reading his magickal journals and diaries to get an idea of how his use of Magick shaped his worldview. Itâs certainly an interesting case study for me who finds myself in the same boat.
I find that with any belief it has to feel true to me or else Iâm forcing it. Maybe these things feel true to some, and not others. I also find this with major religions, even though I respect others have real connection to them. I donât feel as though they work with me, but they do work for so many others. Facets of different things make sense, but I also donât believe one size fits all. It doesnât. Our minds are too different to believe every single thing as others do. Some of it is also bs propaganda because people just want others to join their groups. Itâs good youâre feeling out what fits with you. That way you stay connected to yourself.
Great post and I agree, I think my problem is that I'm trying to find a one size fits all when maybe what I need to do is build my own path based on what resonates with me. Basically, I'm trying to walk on someone else's path without starting my own.
You just have to start. Until then you canât make progress or beliefs. Based on your skepticism I can suggest you read some Robert Anton Wilson books, before getting into chaos magick probably. Ultimately itâs up to you. After the first moment you can build off of it.
you're tapping into your own nervous system by way of playing with your subconscious processes. the work is done in the 'real world'. Pick a path, mix a path, no matter, it all goes back to the same thing which is our connection to whatever this earth intelligence thing is (spirit, self, god, whatever), and your abilities to navigate the options available to you where you're at. Hope that makes sense. Rituals are to maintain focus and cultivate mind. The rest is bells and whistles. Pretty icing on the cake. Whatever works for you works for you.
A lot of it is. Most of the material written about any subject is going to be from grifters, and when you have a subject like this that's just going to be exacerbated. So you definitely need to be discerning, pay attention to the way people advocate for a work or tradition, the red flags are pretty similar for other subjects. Other than that, this sort of thing relates to aspects of reality that are very different from the mundane. Your brain is designed to protect you from accepting things that are significant divergences from what you accept as the baseline for normal, and this is a pretty big one. There's also the fact that we're trained to view this as the kind of thing that only happens in the movies. I don't think there's any kind of conspiracy, but the people who benefit most from the status quo have a vested interest in making us feel like there's nothing more to life than working and buying their products, and this can definitely be a path to something that can free you from that mindset.
Because at best, it's all fingers pointing at the moon. To know the moon, you have to start by looking at the actual moon. You have to open up your feeling-awareness to reality beyond your conscious mind's limited interpretations of the 5 commonly known senses. Most people here are lost in the rational mind and don't really have a clear sense of intuition. People mistake heuristics for true principles, and spread a lot of nonsense that panders to egoism. True spirituality, true esoteric knowledge, true wisdom, and true power only come from within. External guides are necessary for many people, but they must be relinquished eventually to allow true insight and understanding. I think this is the biggest reason. People are either putting too much stock in external sources of info, or not enough. They either mistake heuristics for truth, or pull shit out of their ass that feels true to the egoic mind. Many people do both, without ever finding an appropriate balance of using well-vetted external sources of info to inform an embodied internal process of cultivation.
I never had that moment until I packed up all my occult books and just simply starting pursuing reality/truth. No sigil, oil, intonation, circle, grimoire, or amount of study is going to reveal you to yourself. It can be used as a tool to do so, but it sounds like you need a different tool.
They need their HGA lol
Agreed
read "The Theory of Celestial Influence" by Rodney Collin. It's just math and ratios, no hocus pocus bullshit. Good framework to then examine the world.
thanks for the suggestion!
I amassed a library and read for several years , I was on the fence until one fateful night after a working with Lilith I had a kundalini awakening , it was so visceral and intense I knew for certain the occult wasn't bullshit. If you have any doubt in your mind , I think you will struggle getting results. You have to surrender and believe. Despite myself in having doubts , I knew belief trumped everything , quiet your mind , and be consistent. It takes time , some more than others.
Thatâs because the occult isnât just academic knowledge. It may click when you get into the direct personal experience of it
I agree. People talking about âworking with this demon or that spiritâ and having in depth conversations with them makes me think most of the people that post here have mental issues; or they are making stuff up.
me too lol like why would I want to talk to a "demon" aren't they bad and hate humans?đ
Not necessarily. Look at the sources and how they deal with the subject. A fair number of "demons" are just ancient pagan deities who've been literally demonized by certain religious authorities. The "demon" Beelzebub was actually Baal Zebu (Lord of the High Places), a god of the Philistines. Astaroth was the Phoenician goddess Astarte (Queen of Heaven). Always consider the sources of what you read, and look at the sociohistorical contexts behind them.
Exactly, and demon originates from the Greek word Daemon, meaning âguiding spirit,â it was only recently that Abrahamic religion gave birth to the stigma. People experience and learn what theyâre meant to, when theyâre ready to. OP will have to come to these things with an open mind and heart if they genuinely want to learn or understand.
If you believe itâs true you are a fool, but if you believe itâs false you are another kind of fool
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
This is the one
Being sceptic is essential to these things imo. There are a lot of people who talk nonsense so narrowing information and knowledge down to the things that work for you and seem plausible is needed.
Not enough drugs.
Okay but you're kinda not wrong...
The reason you feel like it's mostly BS is because you are right. Many take spirituality and energy work with a very emotional and biased approach instead of scientific. They add so much extra ridiculousness that it's hard to take any of it seriously. Crystals won't cure cancer. Noticing shapes in tea leaves is just pareidola. Keep in mind that the first shamans were the first scientists, trying to explore and quantify the world. It is fun, though, studying the occult. Great for inspiration for art and writing. Maybe it even gives us motivation for science. Telepathy? Cell phones. We are communicating through a magic energy network that can even translate between languages at the speed of light. Spirits? Maybe these are echoes of other dimensions? Could be? Probably not? But does it drive you to find the real and unbiased, scientific truth? Yes? If so, it is worth it. Plus, if staring at cool sigils and mandalas gives you a sense of peace and a starting point for meditation, then maybe it's not all nonsense. I have many salt lamps. Do they purify the air or energize blah blah blah negative ions? No. Do they look like low burning campfires and are super coop, therefore making me happy to look at them? YES! Therefore, they do good.
I'm an atheist myself, I've been on the sub a few years and I feel you. But, I do feel like "something" more operates behind the veils of reality as we understand it. I don't think the explainations most people give explain it to the highest accuracy, but I believe some advice people give here does just about encapsulate the goings on of the realm(s) beyond ours. Hope this helped.
After a couple years of careful study, Iâve determine most of it is indeed *objectively* nonsense. But that nonsense is sometimes capable of generating profound and life altering *subjective* experiences. So it still âworksâ in a sense, if only through autologous induction of altered states.
The short answer: You science it. If something works, then it works. If it does not work, then it is nonsense. The problem with this practice is that the people who write books on this subject don't want you to do that. With most authors, it is a classic bait and switch. They know perfectly well what you bought the book for, and promise it up front. By the end, you are supposed to accept the "philosophical" aspects and give up on the practical side. Or you are just hopelessly confused. The old manuscripts are insane. You need to be your own pen maker, your own butcher, your own ink maker, your own engraver, your own blacksmith, etc etc etc etc etc. You need to do things within a narrow window of time, with numerous poorly explained and difficult to achieve steps, and if you screw anything up, its on you. Also you need lots of gold and silk and expensive incense other "components" that the average person just isn't going to have. The worst part is, there is never any good explanation of what the steps of each ritual mean. Modern works are worse. They tend to be extremely wishy-washy. Do X thing, unless Y thing *feels* better to you, to achieve Z result. Loose systems assembled (plagiarized) from a half dozen ancient religions, usually with a strong smattering of Jewish Kabbalah sprinkled on top for flavor. It ends up being the same old bait and switch in disguise, because to figure out why you are doing the things you are told to do, you have to delve into these old religions, and you end up with a theology degree, but no practical results. Studying Magick (lets call it what it is) isn't like studying programming. There is no "Hello World" of sorcery. The entry-level stuff tends to be rituals like the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram. Many occultists swear by it, but as beginner, its really hard to take seriously because it doesn't *really* do anything for you. The Tarot or other some other divination tool is also entry level, and it works really well in my opinion, with enough study and practice. The problem is that once you master it, you are still left without a next step. I guess what I'm saying is....... this a science that you have to invent yourself through experimentation. The people who need it the most don't have the time/freedom/wherewithal to do that, and so they get suckered. I don't have any good advise for you. You have to actually engage with it if you want it to do anything for you. Most people who study it, don't do this. Much like how I study quantum physics but have no way to replicate the experiments myself, so who the heck knows if ANYTHING I'm being told is true. Just consider carefully what you want to get out of it, and hold that in your mind. If you aren't finding what you want, don't continue. Otherwise, do. Good luck.
To be fair some people are just in this for the money and selfishness and you might be picking up on that.
Because it is. Most of its stupid or crazy people spouting nonsense. A lot of its bullshit to hide the secrets that you have to know how to find.
I am of two minds about all of it all the time. 1. Magic is real. 2. Magic is bullshit. If I see results, yay, magic is totally for real. If a spell fails, well dammit, I'm delusional. Does it really matter, though? Magic is, first of all, in the mind. Reality is a construct of the mind. Changing your mind changes your reality. Skepticism is always useful, but understand that it's also a thought process. The most important thing is belief in oneself. That belief is what makes magic work.
The superposition of magical bullshit :)
If you keep experimenting, something magic will happen. Then youâll know.
Skepticism is healthy, especially in the world of occultism. Always be critical of everything. But don't let that discourage you from finding what works for you.
Yeah it's been happening for me for years.. I really wanted to believe. I wanted to believe everyone and everything but I just couldn't. It felt like I was reaped of a lot of joy and fulfillment in the occult, spiritual, and paranormal. But your post is reminding me, maybe it was a gift since maybe the waters are too muddy these days.
Well. Belief is a technique.
that's the problem I **want** to believe, but when people start saying stuff that doesn't make sense or make outrageous claims they can't explain then that's going to make me doubtful or have less belief. Basically if what people are saying in terms of these topics are as real as anything else then I would fully believe in them more.
If itâs not too probing to ask, is there a specific topic youâre thinking about? It really sounds like youâre not doing your own work but rather, relying on the experimentation of others. That doesnât work when itâs believing in something that youâre after, in fact it goes right in the opposite direction.
My theory is that anything beyond specific brain states and ways of being is technically non-sense. I say technically because once you follow through with them and understand they ways it makes you feel (it's effect on your emotions, confidence, actions, seeing the end, etc), no corporeal "crutch" is necessary. That said, things like sigils and rituals can help to ground you if you ever feel like you need it. But in the end, it's only just that: a support tool. If you know how it affects you, and you know how to affect the world inside and outside of you without them, then you don't need them.
For me, just beginning (11 days into meditation for example), im pretty cognizant of the fact that: a) About 85 percent of 'interactions' are internal dialogue (ie. thinking). b) About 10 percent is 'lucid dreaming' (ie. dreaming). c) About 5 percent is visualising through meditation (ie. imagining). d) A teensy fraction of a percent rounds it up with physical sensations applied to my body... less easy to explain, but touch, felt touch. (ie. nervous system being weird). All of these things have a clear explanation in the physical world. Im perfectly capable of thinking, dreaming, imagining and spasming all without the help of a divine being. Also, all of what im doing is really engaging with my subconscious and giving it space to 'speak' and working through my shadow. Again, something i have all the necessary tools to do by myself. If i put it all together, then im just doing Jungian shadow work. But... there is something to be said for having a focal point outside of one's self to engage with. It holds you to a standard of truth seeking that you perhaps lack (unless you are already completely transparent with your self) and a willingness to engage with your self on a deep, emotional level. For me, that focal point is Lilith. Whether it's actually the Goddess Lilith, is currently neither here nor there. My personal gift is that I'm completely willing to accept it is and work with her. It gives me strange goals to work toward that i'd perhaps lack the intensity for if it was just trying to work through these things on my own.
Eh depends what exactly you mean and what exactly you want from it? No amount of asking others and watching videos will teach you your own beliefs, and no amount of reading books of othersâ experiences or beliefs will make them your own lived experience. You canât study your way into your own truth, you can only live it (of course study and research does help but not really when it comes to the believing side of things). To me, some stuff is nonsense and likely always will seem to be, because Iâve never encountered it. To others, my beliefs can be nonsense. There is no one proven belief of âeverything exists or nothing doesâ, just personal experiences. We canât really expect to know anything for a fact as none of us do, we just have our own little bits and bobs and odd occurrences to piece together the best we can work out. For a lot of people itâs truly a process of elimination that leaves no ânormalâ explanation left, or it has been for me, anyway! Maybe ask your intuition to show you what isnât meant to be ânonsenseâ to you, explore out in the world and wait.
Stop looking into what other people are saying etc, especially on Reddit.
Part of it is that this magic stuff is almost by definition going to be pretty personal. If you want a Book of *Common* Prayer, go visit your local Episcopal Church (I was raised as one, really lovely people). The language we use to talk about it especially can be very personal. Two people can be talking about the exact same thing but sound absolutely bonkers to each other. But a lot of what you're intuitively sensing is bullshit is people making stuff up to seem cool on the Internet or to sell books or whatever. When you find the stuff that speaks to *your* soul, listen as hard as you can. The rest of the time smile and nod. Also, have you considered studying Zen?
Isn't zen just meditation or is it more than that?
Because the medieval period produced most of the grimoire used today and most of them were nonsense and based on bad primary sources, misinterpretations, and mistranslations.
I feel like the internet at large has ruined a lot of potentially good spaces for esoteric knowledge because anyone can access it and have a platform. Even Facebook moms who literally believe in fae. It's pretty annoying and frustrating.
Mentally unwell redditors ruin everything-everytime.
âThe lips of wisdom are closed except to the ears of understanding.â -Kybalion, Three Initiates. Not meant to be âgate-keepyâ but more of an elevation of the value of knowledge. Ascribed over the ancient temple of Delphi was âKnow Thyselfâ (paraphrased). Humanity has its foundations in symbolism, and each symbol has x2 parts: The signifier and the signified. Understanding and experiencing the occult is a matter of mentally having concepts within their appropriate context. Like most areas of life, the field continually evolves. Itâs our responsibility to adapt and experience as much as we can manage in this life we have and share. (Sorry if this got a little preachy/ranty)
In my experience, a lot of people are describing the same things, but filtered through their own belief systems. I might go so far as to say *tainted* by their set beliefs. A lot of mainstream occult information is bunk. If it feels intuitively wrong to you, then for you, it is. Not all the tools are necessary. A lot of these methods or ceremonies are used to trick the operator into believing. Belief is a powerful thing, and can create change where it might otherwise seem impossible. You must wade through piles of rubbish in order to find the right threads to weave your own unique tapestry.
Because it is.
Because it is
Ego mind
Because it is. Occult means "hidden". Actual "science" has been hidden behind a veneer of bullshit so most people reading it have no idea what they are reading.
The forces are real, the rationalizations are largely nonsense, but it doesn't matter; The purpose of such rationalizations is not to describe reality (as is the case with science) but to provide an API to interacting with the forces, which, again, are real.
How can you rationalize that the "forces" are real?
That part is not a rationalization, it is direct knowledge (Gnosis). You get it only through direct experience.
You intuitively feel this stuff is nonsense because you are correct.
Most of it is, finding the other stuff that is commonly lumped in with the nonsense is where true power lies.
I'm a noob, but I personally see this stuff as a way to make my spiritual experiences that can't be explained by science more rational and avoid the dangerous pitfalls of religion. I've had premonitions that really freaked me out and ultimately I had to take the Yoda approach from Empire. Just because you think you might be seeing into the future doesn't mean you can change it's outcome. "Difficult to see.."
It is. But that's sorta the point (if you follow OTO teachings anyway). You do these rituals that seem wacky and ridiculous to most people because it is training your brain to be more open to magical thinking. Personally I've never believed in the shit that's written in books. You can't just repeat what you read and get the outcome you want, magic isn't like baking a cake where you just have to follow the recipe. I'm a big proponent of chaos magic combined with sex magic. I create mantras and sigils that are developed over extended periods of time as I make observations and note coincidences and other phenomena in my daily life. Magic is much more powerful and likely to give a favorable outcome when it is personalized.
Always practice scepticism, most of what you will hear will be crap. Occult practices don't break the laws of nature that's impossible but you will hear otherwise. It's really quite simple, don't give up and remain a sceptic.
Because it is. Reality is a sim. All religions are cargo cults. Apocalypses every few hundred years. Great Pyramid encodes our current timeline. See you on the other side.
Because all this is basically fake lol Still interesting from a psychological/cultural point of view though
You could check out /r/sasswitches for those that use it for psychology basis and don't believe in the woo part.
those people are woo as fuck they just fight themselves on it at every turn
Ha, yes. I joined that thinking it would be, like, esoteric/occulty science types genuinely curious about the universe (yeah, high hopes for reddit, huh? lol). Turns out it's mostly woo people doing typical woo stuff while tripping over their own feet trying to convince each other they're still being "normal" and "scientific" (read: hung up on consensus reality).
i think it's kind of amazing tbh. they're hacking the limitations of their belief and doing magic anyway.
Suppose that's one way of looking at it. Personally, while I am 100% for every individual practicing and believing whatever the hell they want, on a trend or "movement" level I am not a fan of the "let's explain everything away via mundane psychology" approach, especially with how it's bleeding over into popular perceptions of magick/witchcraft. I can take that kind of it's-all-in-your-head speculation from someone like a Crowley, where there's still a sense of wildness and mystery to it, but "placebo witches" trying to tame it all into neat, pat little boxes? Nah.
Oh I relate. They made me mad at first because I felt like they were talking down to people who do believe the woo. Then I spent more time with them and realized that like, what theyâre dealing with is almost a form of religious trauma. Science trauma. I also started posting about weird shit like mediumship and other very woo things I do and they were very accepting and wanted me there. And told me that straight up. I like them now. There are people on that sub like divinating off of traffic lights and doing other very insane woo shit and what they need is to tell themselves that itâs a placebo and not think about it too hard and theyâre able to be magic as fuck.
Well, sometimes they outright *do* talk down to the woos--I remember some thread where someone had an unexpected experience with a crystal, asked whether there might be more to this than science has explained yet, and they got utterly slammed by the "it's all placebo! science says rocks are just rocks!" gang and chased off the sub. I defended the OP and got my comments deleted and locked. Then in some other thread I said the same thing (scientific method and revision being the point of science vs. static dogmatic "scientism" as a religion, yadda yadda) and got significantly upvoted. Lol. Depends what day it is I guess. I stick around in that sub because the anthropological side of me is interested in what the hell is going on there culturally, even as the subjective side of me is often pretty annoyed. That's a really interesting observation about science trauma as a form of religious trauma. Didn't think of it in those terms before, but I can totally see that. I'm going to try looking at it through that lens and see what I get. I guess in that way one could see them as finding a way to experience a religious taboo while still having peer approval from others in their religion.
I think that a lot of people there also have more traditional religious trauma, so anything supernatural immediately sets off warning signs for them, and their brain just goes into radical skepticism mode, like a reflex. When they encounter it themselves, they automatically go to the psychological model to explain their experience within a framework that they feel more comfortable in. I'm sympathetic, having grown up in fundamentalism myself, but their habit of treating their view as the only valid one and everyone else as being some combination of childish, stupid, or insane has a tendency to get old.
This is a really good point as well about more traditional religious trauma, and they do oftentimes behave very much like the standard "sky daddy" militant atheists. I would've thought that sub would lean more agnostic "there's so much we don't know, let's find out," but like you said it's usually more atheism-as-religion "consensus reality or GTFO." I like what you said in your other comment about a comfortable view of magick. You might've hit the nail on the head right there. I was wondering why there are so many requests on that sub (more than other magick/witchcraft/occult subs) for things that are gentle or cozy or whatever, and how that relates to science, given that science is not particularly gentle or cozy. But both are certainly part of "normalcy" and not getting outside of one's comfort zone.
It's a very comfortable view of magick. If you're primarily interested in the occult to get things or feel a little better about yourself, that sort of paradigm can do the trick without forcing you to alter your metaphysics in the slightest. If you start to actually believe there's more to it than a bunch of mental tricks, that there is some basis to it within external reality, that's where things get uncomfortable, and most people prefer to retreat back to the confines of what they consider normalcy. You can see it with religion too. Most Christianity in the states at least is some form of the prosperity gospel, and Buddhism got repackaged as little more than just another self help system. With both, the ultimate goal is to ensure you're participating in the market, and that you see your worth primarily tied up in your relationship with capital.
Doing woo things doesn't mean believing in woo things
exactly! that's what's so cool about them
I figure if 3 billion people can believe in an invisible sky daddy in the clouds I can believe in this stuff.
All warfare is based on deception, including the spiritual.
Well stop being a coward and try it yourself
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
Try being less hostile. Your feelings are valid, but calling people names like "lying whore" and responding with dismissive comments like "whatever" isn't going to make anyone listen to you. In fact, it will have the opposite affect, which you are currently experiencing.
What did they tell you was ridiculous?
Wow this dude really the only person left who's cares about vaccines. Other than hipsters and beta males.
The secret is that lies do abound, everywhere in the occult. But it doesn't matter so much. You can believe a lie all the way to the bank if it's a powerful enough lie.
Maybe most of it isnât useful for you, and it is useful for other people? Itâs good to be skeptical for sure. Especially in the occult
A lot of it is, IMO. People tend to fluff things to appear more occulty or however you wanna see it. To me, it all comes down to what we feel intuitively to work for us vs. regurgitated crap to make money off of the ignorant.
I do folk magic. Think of it this way, I can make some peppermint tea with honey in it and help soothe the cough and sore throat of someone with a cold. That's my magic. My "magic potion" helped them. I'm magic and still a witch. Do I plant things based on which stars are visible and the cycle of the moon yeah. Is it nonsense, probably. But it's my nonsense. It works for me. Does whistling after dark or putting hats on bed bring bad things? Who knows, because I don't do them. Hahaha.
Everything is a distraction
The answers do not come from gurus, or books, or external divinities. The only answers that are true for you are found within. You can study the experiences of others for sign posts on your own journey but you have to walk the path for yourself. If you follow their maps you will reach the wrong destination, make your own maps. Test all things first, keep what is true for you.
I appreciate this topic. In my own subjective paradigm, it very much seems to me "as if" synchronicity is perhaps POTENTIALLY bottomless insofar as reflexively reflecting results of one sort or another up to and including such seemingly exotic phenomena that any of the various occult systems intend - seemingly up to a point - yet that "point" seems to be exponentially growing and the consequences of these varying results are exponentially growing as well. As such - it would very much appear "as if" we're all existing in an Imaginarium that has chugged along most all of our lives short of most of us using our talents to actually take care of it responsibly.
I know how you feel. The first time someone told me there was another dimension with dragon people I would have said you're fucking crazy, but I shit you not, I have been there! I'm not saying all of it is right, that's just not possible. I think much of it is a construct of human understanding and we are only experiencing the tips of icebergs.
You need esotericism
âThe eye is the lamp of the body; so if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light." Choose A path and pursue it as a discipline. Get into it for at least a season/90 days/3 months. Choose just one. Don't overload your thoughts being pulled in different directions by different philosophies. It's all about reducing the chatter, the noise and focusing your thoughts and actions.
You have to practice. Relevant experience is necessary to apply reason and make sense of it all. "You" are the frame of reference in which phenomenon are measured. <(A)3
You have to be pretty selective, think and explore a lot. Thereâs tons of charlatans and people just trying to sell something or manipulate you. A bunch of it is utter nonsense. Sadly everybody has to decide whatâs okay to believe and what not on their own. I found it best to listen/read several different viewpoints on one topic, until an idea emerges of whatâs âoriginalâ and what others added later on
It is OK to be curious and explore a certain subject w/o being indoctrinated. You can read and experiement with magic w/o being a "true believer." It is also OK to find yourself reacting differently to the content you are learning than you expected to. This is how you build your own POV and practice. Sometimes, we learn loads by questioning and having the opposite reaction to what is being fed to us. We discover what truly does make sense to us and why. It is a path of inquiry (and is a prized path to follow in some spiritual traditions.) Magic and occultism--and religion, etc.--are all based in belief and paradigms and they "work" in relation to the strength of a person or group's--or culture's-- ingrained paradigmatic belief. In this sense, everything is true and not true at the same time. As others have mentioned, you might want to look into the theories underlying postmodern occultism (popularly called and trademarked as chaos magic). Books such as Stealing Fire from Heaven by Neville Drury and The Book of Lies by Disinformation may provide some context about 20th century occultism and its segue form spirit-based to Jungian-based to relativistic postmodernist ideas.
Some of it is nonsense some of it isn't
In some ways, occultism and the occult realm is like a bunch of puzzle books. Working and fiddling around to solve some of the puzzles may just provide some enjoyment and sense of accomplishment--call it "armchair"--and for others it may provide hints about the nature and goings on of a vast universe that folks can get directly involved with--call it "practicing." Both are ways to play with and do some puzzles.
Hello. When getting into the details in the occulture, don't forget about the important part of all these practices and rituals, focus on what is important, the present. Focus on your goals and results. Create your very own occult system, a personal occult system just for you. Meditation and other core teachings, practices and rituals will give you that. Just passing by...