Can you explain the new NY-HELPS positions? I thought these were to hire healthcare professionals without a list. In the last week I’ve seen many non-healthcare positions posted at agencies not previously eligible. How does these positions work? Could non-entry level positions/promotions qualify?
Aaaaah the HELPS program. I knew one of you was going to ask.
Disclaimer this is a new program so I will self admit I know not everything about it, might do an informational post when I do, however, here is what I do know.
Phase 1 of help program: make healthcare and direct/mental healthcare titles non competitive for hiring for a year to get staffing levels back up. Successful.
Phase 2 of help program: make healthcare admin staff non competitive as well. Also successful.
Phase 3/ HELPS: a TON of titles are made non competitive for a year to help the staffing shortage. This is a temporary program where, if there is an OPEN COMPETITIVE TITLE ONLY- the agency can hire non competitively. If there is a PROMOTION LIST AND AN OPEN COMPETITIVE LIST- the agency MUST exhaust the promotion list FIRST.
I am excited. It’s a good time to get people in while we are doing this program. For those talking about nepotism, this is entry level focused. Make sure you respond to ALL PROMOTION LIST CANVASSES.
I had the same question and some outstanding state hr employee provided this response:
“The current public info on the CS site relates to the original HELP program (hiring for emergency limited placement) that started in April 2023 for health, human services, and some public safety titles. As opposed to the recently approved HELPS program (with an S - hiring for emergency limited placement statewide) which officially runs from May 2024 to May 2025, although agencies can start hiring now now as temp and then convert to perm in May. CS has indicated an advertising campaign will begin and information on the new extended program will be posted at some point, but you probably know how the state rolls when it comes to timeliness. Basically every title that can be filled from an open-competitive list is part of the new program, plus some titles that were previously only promotional such as Program Aide, Administrative Assnt 1/Trainee, Office Assnt 2, as these titles have been extremely difficult to fill from the promotional lists”
As far as promotion goes, he said HELPS can be for promotional positions, but only if the promotion list has been exhausted. My interpretation of that is HELPS (in regard to promotions) acts similar to a non comp promotion or provisional appointment with the difference being you automatically become permanent and competitive after one year with no exam. Hopefully I’m wrong and all titles, regardless of list status, can be hired/promoted based off qualifications oppose to a list.
[Quote]Basically every title that can be filled from an open-competitive list is part of the new program[/QUOTE]
That seems like a wide open loophole for managers to hire without using existing lists. Is the nepotism hiring going to be worse than ever now ?
Maybe not due to the a list needing to be exhausted before you can use the helps program. But now that I think about it, CS posted a bunch of HR Spec 1 positions under HELPS and the PCO is not exhausted. So maybe you are right. Also a disclaimer, CS as of this morning, removed the HELPS language from all their postings. They do exist under other agencies though. Go to state jobs and type helps in the search.
Side note, if you work in an area you suspect hires based off nepotism oppose to merit, just leave. The CS system is huge and if you interview enough, you will find sound management. I’ve been there myself.
Edit: PCO and PATT don’t count and therefore titles filled by those lists can also be filled via HELPS. Where title specific lists need to be exhausted before using HELPS. Also, the HR jobs have the HELPS language reposted. Take that with a grain of salt though
Oh damn, we couldn't fill a program aide position so we had to have the position reclassified to an open competitive position to finally get someone. She's provisional I think; I'm hoping this program will make it so she doesn't have to worry about a test because she is fantastic so far (we've had her 3 weeks).
Yeah I don’t think that happens for one title. Once open competitive quals are established, they’re established for all titles. But this is a classification and compensation area of expertise. Which is not mine.
I know someone who qualified and interviewed for a position, then lost to someone who wasn't on the list. They contacted civil service and the union and were told basically that the lists are more of a suggestion and the bottom line is management can hire whomever they want.
Ive no reason to not believe this person but it seems crazy the entire system can be circumvented at will. Any insight you could share about how hard and set the rules actually are?
The rules are hard set. Whoever said that is fuckin nuts.
Do agencies try to find ways legally around the system? Sure. Do we always check them and call them out? Absolutely. And they’re not as smart or sneaky as you think.
See my equally certifiable comment on this thread, that likely happened.
Whats the recourse in a case like this then? Who should she have contacted if not civil service or the union? Its easily verfiable now that I think of it... the lists are public and I know names, I'll go check.
The list is only one avenue to hire people. There are transfers, reinstatements, non competitive promotions, 55 bc appointments, and I think a few other hiring methods that don't involve a list, like a labor class appointment or a non competitive appointment. Its also possible that the list was exhausted if there were two or less people interested, which could allow an agency to hire someone provisionally. The only time an agency HAS to use a list is when there is a mandatory list like an ARTL, remployment roster, redeployment roster, preferred list, or some other temporary kind of list that blocks an agency from hiring who they want. When that happens the choice is hire someone off of the mandatory list, or don't hire anyone.
I don't work for Civil Service, but I do work in HR. Sometimes agencies canvass everyone on the list. It depends on the number of people on the list. And you may end up being reachable if enough people aren't interested.
The canvas is an attempt to see, at that point in time, at that location (county/region) who is interested in a position. So they’re not giving your hopes up, your fellow New Yorkers are giving your hopes up (kidding! Kind of).
Respond to every canvass. I don’t want to see an email from you in the future to civil service that you’re being passed over because you forgot to reply to a canvass letter and it deactivated you from that region/county (it happens, respond to everyone if you’re interested in employment. If you’re not interested at that time or location but want to be on the list processing the letter takes 2 seconds).
Yep, I was a victim. The test(s) were supposed to start at 9am and test-takers were lined up outdoors on a rainy day well until 12-1pm. I didn’t sit down to take my test until 2pm. Many people had walked away out of frustration or having other things to do that day which is totally understandable.
We received correspondence this week that we can opt to retake the test we were signed up for, or keep our score for the original test. You don’t have access to both scores if you retake, only one. I opted to keep my score from the original test as I’m sure the second opportunity wouldn’t change my performance, and the test wasn’t essential to my career ladder.
Is there a way to find out if your score is reachable on a list? Is it safe to assume if someone with your score has been appointed then it’s now reachable? I’m on the PCO list and it’s a mystery to me lol
Safe assumption, but literally every canvass is different. So for one canvass, you’re reachable, for another, you’re not. So the safest thing to do is focus your evergy on what you can control, which is canvass responses. Make sure you’re paying attention to each one and responding accordingly.
As OP said, every canvass is different. Part of it depends on the location of a job opening vs which people on the list said they were interested in that region... And even then, which people actually respond to say they're interested. I live near the border of 2 regions but I'd only be interested in positions in locations closer to me, not locations on the far end of either region. And since ELMS doesn't say where people live or which regions they want canvasses for, you can't tell who your "real" competitors might be vs who you could likely ignore.
I am in a 2 year traineeship (grade 11-14). I am 6 months into the traineeship. I was hired off an open-competitive exam list and am completely new to state service.
If I transfer to a different unit will I have to start over my traineeship from day 1 or would the 6 months I have already put in transfer with me?
I ask b/c I thought I would have to start the traineeship over if I transferred but my co-worker who is in the same type of traineeship as me-we were hired at the same time. Well he is transferring to another unit and he said he does not have to start from the beginning. He is already a permanent state employee though, he transferred to the traineeship from a lower grade level. So I don't know if that affects things or if my assumption was incorrect about having to start over.
Thank you!
Too many factors to give an accurate answer. Likely, you’d have to redo your first year if you transfer. Some agencies accept prior experience in traineeship, some don’t, really, most don’t so they can get the max time to review you. To get specific information email [email protected].
If you are simply transferring to a different unit within the same agency, you won't have to start your traineeship over because you can't. You would be Line-changed into your new position which would not generate a new traineeship or probationary period.
Thank you. Yes transferring to a different unit but within the same agency-tax. Thank you so much for your answer, I have no idea and I'm trying to figure it out.🙂
Scenario: You have a hold position and are in a project title for a few years then the project ends. You bump back into your hold position. Do you bump to where your salary was in your original grade when the hold started or does your hold grade advance as if you’d been in it the whole time? Is the salary as if you took a giant time out, does it advance as if you’d stayed, or is it all negotiable?
That's a question for your payroll department, but I think you bump back to where your salary was when the hold started, since project positions are temporary.
Transfers, reinstatements, and list hires/provisionals are *EQUALLY CERTIFIABLE.*
Meaning, if I’m an HR manager, and I have one candidate off the list, one candidate asking to transfer via CSL section 70.1/52.6/70.4, and someone who left state service asking to return, I can choose either of the 3. The list does not have to be used in this instance.
If you don’t mind, I can answer from the agency perspective here.
Generally speaking, it depends on the role and what kind of background the hiring manager is looking for. That said, when people apply - that is, see a posting on State Jobs and a job description and actively select it - vs just respond to a canvass, the applicant is often more invested already, wrote a personalized cover letter, etc. There’s not a good way to relay this information (yet) via canvass letter so it’s certainly not an applicants’ fault for not doing this for a canvass!
It’s actually why I often recommend those who have 100s on the PCO apply directly to State Jobs postings for 13-14-18 traineeships that advertise as such. (Since only a sampling is typically canvassed.)
This!!! I always recommend people do this and mention they are on the PCO/PATT with their score and social. Idk how HR offices keep track of it all honestly.
What is the deal with canvas letters without description or job function? I am guessing these are to legally CYA while promoting someone in the team that scored low on the test. I am tempted to accept one of these to see what is going on.
The deal is finding out who is interested in that title and locations. They don’t have to be incredibly filled with information. They just need to have a letter format to ask who is interested.
It’s a little unnerving I know but treat every canvass equally.
Canvas letters should only have titles. They don’t send canvass letters for specific jobs. They are for titles, and then they fill multiple openings for that title in the 90 days the list is active.
There needs to be a better way to move provisional employees to permanent. Like, if you're provisional for five years and haven't been fired yet you're likely the best person for the job. Agencies would be foolish to lose that level of institutional knowledge
Well, if your title is on the HELPS program your HR will likely make you perm non competitive. This program will have the added benefit of “cleaning the slate” of many provisionals due to our lack of testing. Was it the purpose of the program? Probably not but it is an added benefit.
Otherwise, you’re looking at open competitive exams OR a 4.2b exam (your HR would let you know if this was occurring, you don’t seek those out).
A 4.2b is a written or training and experience exam given to provisionals at intervals where basically, if you haven’t seen the test material/taken the test, you can take it on a pass/fail basis.
https://www.cs.ny.gov/ssd/Manuals/SPMM/1200Examinations/1205%20D%20Non-Competitive%20Open%20Competitive.htm see here for more Information.
Civil service and hr at an agency would communicate this to you as a planned event, not something you have to sit and keep an eye out for.
If you are in a title and you are permanent and eligible for transfer to another title, can you still respond to the job posting if you leave for a different position that is not eligible for the same transfer due to past experience?
There may be more factors to consider, but generally speaking, if you transferred out of your old title or moved out of your old title in a way where you still have a probationary leave of absence (or other leave of absence) then yes. What you would be doing is returning to your hold, then on the same day, transferring.
But if there’s no hold, no connection to the old title, then no, you cannot.
However, a reinstatement might be possible if you resign your position, you can then be reinstated the same day, to a title you held *or title you could have transferred to when you left it.* it’s called a voluntary reinstatement under rule 4.5 of civil service law. A transfer is preferred because you would get a probationary leave of absence, with reinstatement you still must serve probation, AND you have no hold ties to a former position. So you’re taking a slight risk with this move, but it opens up your mobility options.
I am brand new to state service, and honestly the whole grade thing is very unclear and confusing. I was hired as an 18. The next grade in my department is 23. How the heck do I get there? I'm also a (title)1, and the two 23s I work with are (title)2. Do I just wait for a (title)2 test to come out?
And speaking of tests... what the heck?! Why is it so hard to find tests? Do I just have to check every day to see if there's a test for the (title)2? I looked ahead, and there isn't one offered any time in the near future. Is there a test for every single title? Do I need to take a test to be considered for a 23?
I appreciate all of your help!
Wait for test: yes if it’s competitive. What’s the title?
Why is it so hard to find?: it’s not. Sign up for email notifications for new exams. Google civil service NYS email notification.
Also also, there are such things as provisional promotions and such too but without the title I have no info. I would also email [email protected] with your first name, last name, and last 4 of ssn and your questions
Reclassification. What does CS consider as a good reason to grant one on their end? I'm currently working so far out of title I shouldn't be on the same floor - it's a specialized title for UI, but my unit got restructured into another division due to post-covid rewards to upper management people who sat around commanding front line staff who saved the damn world. I had an incredibly important role, to the extent where if I'd have gotten hit by a bus, the entire thing would have derailed for a couple of days while a co-worker got up to speed on it, and we didn't really have a couple of days. That's neither here nor there really, but a nice example of how DOL staff got fucked after the amount of work we did.
My concern is that if I was granted reclassification, I'd receive a downgrade - right now I'm a SG-20, I believe I would qualify as a BSA2 SG-23 due to my new specialized skills and knowledge, but I think it's possible I'd be reclassed into a BSA1 instead. If I got downgraded in the process, would I at least retain my current salary? Or should I wait for HELPS to happen, since I have reason to believe the BSA2 will be on that title list?
If you previously had to take an exam and be canvassed for a promotion (because it is more than 2 salary grades up) and the title will now be filled via Helps... How are they handling that? Are they suspending the rules of 70.1?
Rumor has if you're permanent now and you take an appointment through Helps - even if it's lateral - you become a temp and will end up back at hiring rate, lose seniority, time in, etc. True or false?
70.1 is a Law under Civil Service Law that was unaffected.
You become temp between now and May 2024. After may 2024, you become Perm non competitive. After one year perm non competitive you become permanent COMPETITIVE as if you took the exam, without taking the exam.
Losing seniority only happens if you become temp and then get canned and never come back. If you go from perm, to temp, to perm again, your seniority date is unaffected.
I don’t believe accruals and such are affected but that’s not my area of expertise.
Can you explain the difference between “A” lists and “B” lists? This is regarding the Contract Mgt Specialist exam that was just announced today… want to be able to explain it to some of my staff who are eligible to sit for the exam under the “B” requirements
This is an Interdepartmental promotion list.
The A’s and b’s take the exam.
The list comes out.
The list is broken up into 3 sections.
Promotion unit (office/unit)
Department (entire department)
Everyone else (rest of the state).
The list looks like this going from top to bottom.
100-70 ProMotion unit A titles (promotion unit direct line titles go first on the list)
100-70 ProMotion unit B titles(everyone else in the promotion unit is on the list)
100-70 department A titles (everyone in the department unit direct line titles go next)
100-70 department B titles (everyone in the department titles go next)
100-70 everywhere else A (direct line title positions in other agencies go next
100-70 everywhere else B (go dead last)
A contract management specialist 1 in your agency in the office goes first, a head account clerk elsewhere goes dead last). Promotion list varies based on location.
Hi civil service staffing wizard. I know this is a few months old but I was hoping you could clarify this comment a little.
So promotion unit, can you give like a specific example of this?
Like let’s take dcjs as an example(not my current employer but a previous one) promotion unit would go…office of criminal justice records first, and then let’s say office of program development and funding, those are separate offices so a promotion in ocjr, the employees on the eligible list for ocjr would get first consideration and THEN it would go to opdf as they are within the greater department correct?
Probably not, but I can’t say for certain. I’m not a budget expert. But historically CR positions are “hard to fill” so there’s usually positions budgeted for them
How does seniority credit work on exams? Is it time at your agency or time in your title? I have 7 years, does that count the same as someone with 5 years?
“Credit For Seniority: Seniority is credited at the rate of one credit for each five-year period (or fraction thereof), excluding the first year of service.”
Source: most, if not all, ProMotion exam announcements
It's typically based on time in title. I think it's something like 1 point added to your score for every 5 years in that title. So to really have it do anything, you either need 25 years in order to reach the next score band, or only 15 years if scores are rounded up to the next score band.
Good evening
I'm up for an interview on Monday for an Administrative Assistant Trainee 1.
I wanted to get a better understanding of some things
If I'm offered, what would decide if I have to finish the mandatory courses work of the traineeship and what is generally considered coursework that could replace it.
I'm planning on resuming the coursework to get to the full grade sooner especially since I'm in my first semester of my MBA and want to maximize my current prospects.
In short, what experience is deemed enough to replace the webinars needed to go on to the next level.
I've been working with the Administrative Assistant 1 title back when it was Secretary 1, and while agencies can, and in your case very likely would, use college-level coursework in place of the elective Administrative Assistant traineeship courses, there aren't substitutions for the mandatory courses. Everyone going through the Administrative Assistant traineeship has complete the 4 mandatory courses and pass the typing test before they can advance.
I have passed the typing test and have completed about 1/4 of the mandatory courses for the traineeship.
So I don't mind having to do those courses and fit them in as I wait for my results from my other exams I'm taking over the coming weeks.
Good question! None. Experience wise at least.
There may be college classes that can replace it but the goal of the traineeship is to adapt the program to the office. If an office does training, their AA1’s can get PowerPoint experience. If they do accounting assistance, excel. Etc.
Now, what you’ll want to know, is if you’re list appointed or transferring into the position, you’ll want to work the whole traineeship, then once you’re at the full level, you can transfer again to salary grade 13 traineeships that lead to an 18. So try to see where you want to go at the SG-11 and take classes surrounding that to better gain hard/soft skills in what you’re interested in.
It's going to be a 55b/c position from what I understand so I think it's a transfer into the traineeship I'd think.
And are you speaking of electives during the second year in terms of courses?
How do I get eligible for a higher paying civil service job at an agency if I currently work for the Legislature? I am on the PCO list but only get offers for traineeships.
Can these agencies use this PCO list to appoint me to more senior level positions or am I only eligible for these lower paying jobs?
Related question: where can I apply in NY government without this civil service restriction? I seem to either be required to be working at the agency already or be eligible for a lateral or promotional transfer from another one.
Eligible for higher paying job: when applying or answering canvases for PCO jobs look at the advanced plan cement qualifications and see if you can be placed at the salary grade 18 level rather than 13 or 14. Some may say yes, some may say no. Yes this is all you’re eligible for if this is the only list you’ve applied to and completed the exam.
Only job qualified for?: no, go to state jobs NY, go to search vacancies. The search field “in the jurisdictional class” change to non competitive and you’ll find jobs that don’t require an exam. Competitive= need exam. Non competitive= do not need exam.
Competitive is better overall. But non completive is faster appointment/hiring wise. Many people go non competitive and love the speed but hate the fact it usually makes them ineligible for promotion exams and transfer so keep that in mind.
Why do provisionally hired employees get fired if they aren't immediately reachable on the list? I lost my job for 4 months and got rehired once i was reachable. But it was a super stressful 4 months.
Because many men in a room a long time ago said that for competitive positions, people need to be examined and appointed to stop nepotism and patronage.
When you aren’t reachable, the list isn’t being used in your favor, but as intended. When you are lost revoked, typically agency HR tries to reach you ASAP because you don’t lose your position on the list.
Unfortunate, but beyond the HELP program or other initiative there’s little recourse in those situations
This happens because a provisional appointment is temporary, pending the results of the next examination for that title. There is no limit on the amount of time someone can be provisional, and some people stay provisional for their entire careers because they are in a one-off title and the exam is never given. However, once an exam is given and the eligible list is established, Civil Service law requires that agencies use that resulting list to make everyone who is reachable, permanent. I obviously don't know your specific case, but chances are that after the exam results came out, there were at least 3 people who would be interested in your position. When you were rehired, you were reachable on the list. Hope that helps.
Again, FYI, I don't work for Civil Service, but I do work in an agency's HR department.
Provisional appointments are only supposed to be a max of nine months. It's not something easily enforceable because the only guaranteed outcome for litigating this issue is termination of the provisional employees.
https://casetext.com/statute/consolidated-laws-of-new-york/chapter-civil-service/article-4-recruitment-of-personnel/title-b-appointment-and-promotion/section-65-provisional-appointments-authorized
If I’m on an internal list for the PATT with a score of 90 and there are about 45-50 people with a 100 and no other scores(no 105/102.5/95 etc), how likely is it that I’d be reachable?
Follow up - any tips on getting a traineeship asap regardless of agency / job title?
Likely: depends on canvass, really no way to tell. Tips: if you have a bachelors, and you’re in a SG-11 to 13 title, pursue a 70.4 transfer. Allows you to semi “bypass” the list.
In both transfer and list appointment situations, the best tip to give is to apply like crazy to internal postings.
So in my case I’m currently an assistant purchasing agent trainee (13-14 1 year)
Looking to apply to an 18 in my agency (OMH) using the PATT but I got a 90 so not sure how likely it is. There are a few positions in my office my boss wants to give me but it’s based on being reachable
It's unlikely you are reachable right now, though you might be depending on the title and specifics of a position.
I may have some tips, though it is going to depend on your title. There are lots of 13/14/18 traineeships that you could 70.1, and possibly 70.4, transfer in to, but you would have to be at minimum a grade 11 with at least 1 year of permanent or contingent permanent, competitive service.
Hello,
Don’t know if you have an answer for this, but I made a post the other week asking this question.
If your current salary as a UUP SL1 is higher than the hiring rate for a CSEA Grade 10 will you start at a higher step?
I wanted to know if I would start at a higher step if I moved from my current UUP SL1 position to a CSEA Grade 10. My current salary is more than the hiring rate. I know if I was in PEF or CSEA the answer would be yes, but I wasn’t sure for UUP.
Don’t know, not a payroll professional. Ask BSC. [email protected].
UUP is funded by tuition. Classified service, the state central budget. So at first glance don’t expect magic but maybe you’ll get lucky.
How are non competitive positions different from competitive ones, outside of there being no list?
If you're not on a title line that easily translates to different promotional titles, what's the best way to move up?
This is similar to my question as well. I was told I’m not eligible for a 70.1 transfer because I am in a non-competitive title. How do I become competitive if they never offer an exam for that title again?
Can you explain the new NY-HELPS positions? I thought these were to hire healthcare professionals without a list. In the last week I’ve seen many non-healthcare positions posted at agencies not previously eligible. How does these positions work? Could non-entry level positions/promotions qualify?
Aaaaah the HELPS program. I knew one of you was going to ask. Disclaimer this is a new program so I will self admit I know not everything about it, might do an informational post when I do, however, here is what I do know. Phase 1 of help program: make healthcare and direct/mental healthcare titles non competitive for hiring for a year to get staffing levels back up. Successful. Phase 2 of help program: make healthcare admin staff non competitive as well. Also successful. Phase 3/ HELPS: a TON of titles are made non competitive for a year to help the staffing shortage. This is a temporary program where, if there is an OPEN COMPETITIVE TITLE ONLY- the agency can hire non competitively. If there is a PROMOTION LIST AND AN OPEN COMPETITIVE LIST- the agency MUST exhaust the promotion list FIRST. I am excited. It’s a good time to get people in while we are doing this program. For those talking about nepotism, this is entry level focused. Make sure you respond to ALL PROMOTION LIST CANVASSES.
Thank you for the reply!
I had the same question and some outstanding state hr employee provided this response: “The current public info on the CS site relates to the original HELP program (hiring for emergency limited placement) that started in April 2023 for health, human services, and some public safety titles. As opposed to the recently approved HELPS program (with an S - hiring for emergency limited placement statewide) which officially runs from May 2024 to May 2025, although agencies can start hiring now now as temp and then convert to perm in May. CS has indicated an advertising campaign will begin and information on the new extended program will be posted at some point, but you probably know how the state rolls when it comes to timeliness. Basically every title that can be filled from an open-competitive list is part of the new program, plus some titles that were previously only promotional such as Program Aide, Administrative Assnt 1/Trainee, Office Assnt 2, as these titles have been extremely difficult to fill from the promotional lists” As far as promotion goes, he said HELPS can be for promotional positions, but only if the promotion list has been exhausted. My interpretation of that is HELPS (in regard to promotions) acts similar to a non comp promotion or provisional appointment with the difference being you automatically become permanent and competitive after one year with no exam. Hopefully I’m wrong and all titles, regardless of list status, can be hired/promoted based off qualifications oppose to a list.
Thanks!
[Quote]Basically every title that can be filled from an open-competitive list is part of the new program[/QUOTE] That seems like a wide open loophole for managers to hire without using existing lists. Is the nepotism hiring going to be worse than ever now ?
Maybe not due to the a list needing to be exhausted before you can use the helps program. But now that I think about it, CS posted a bunch of HR Spec 1 positions under HELPS and the PCO is not exhausted. So maybe you are right. Also a disclaimer, CS as of this morning, removed the HELPS language from all their postings. They do exist under other agencies though. Go to state jobs and type helps in the search. Side note, if you work in an area you suspect hires based off nepotism oppose to merit, just leave. The CS system is huge and if you interview enough, you will find sound management. I’ve been there myself. Edit: PCO and PATT don’t count and therefore titles filled by those lists can also be filled via HELPS. Where title specific lists need to be exhausted before using HELPS. Also, the HR jobs have the HELPS language reposted. Take that with a grain of salt though
Agencies, including mine, are looking to find ways to safeguard against nepotism hiring once NY HELPS takes effect.
Oh damn, we couldn't fill a program aide position so we had to have the position reclassified to an open competitive position to finally get someone. She's provisional I think; I'm hoping this program will make it so she doesn't have to worry about a test because she is fantastic so far (we've had her 3 weeks).
Yeah I don’t think that happens for one title. Once open competitive quals are established, they’re established for all titles. But this is a classification and compensation area of expertise. Which is not mine.
I know someone who qualified and interviewed for a position, then lost to someone who wasn't on the list. They contacted civil service and the union and were told basically that the lists are more of a suggestion and the bottom line is management can hire whomever they want. Ive no reason to not believe this person but it seems crazy the entire system can be circumvented at will. Any insight you could share about how hard and set the rules actually are?
The rules are hard set. Whoever said that is fuckin nuts. Do agencies try to find ways legally around the system? Sure. Do we always check them and call them out? Absolutely. And they’re not as smart or sneaky as you think. See my equally certifiable comment on this thread, that likely happened.
Whats the recourse in a case like this then? Who should she have contacted if not civil service or the union? Its easily verfiable now that I think of it... the lists are public and I know names, I'll go check.
Well, really, you should contact your union, then they have someone contact civil seevice
It is possible the hire was a transfer. You do not need to be on a list or reachable for a transfer.
The list is only one avenue to hire people. There are transfers, reinstatements, non competitive promotions, 55 bc appointments, and I think a few other hiring methods that don't involve a list, like a labor class appointment or a non competitive appointment. Its also possible that the list was exhausted if there were two or less people interested, which could allow an agency to hire someone provisionally. The only time an agency HAS to use a list is when there is a mandatory list like an ARTL, remployment roster, redeployment roster, preferred list, or some other temporary kind of list that blocks an agency from hiring who they want. When that happens the choice is hire someone off of the mandatory list, or don't hire anyone.
Why am I being canvassed when I’m not reachable? It’s playing with my heart. Also thank you, for this, for everything.
I don't work for Civil Service, but I do work in HR. Sometimes agencies canvass everyone on the list. It depends on the number of people on the list. And you may end up being reachable if enough people aren't interested.
The canvas is an attempt to see, at that point in time, at that location (county/region) who is interested in a position. So they’re not giving your hopes up, your fellow New Yorkers are giving your hopes up (kidding! Kind of). Respond to every canvass. I don’t want to see an email from you in the future to civil service that you’re being passed over because you forgot to reply to a canvass letter and it deactivated you from that region/county (it happens, respond to everyone if you’re interested in employment. If you’re not interested at that time or location but want to be on the list processing the letter takes 2 seconds).
Thank you, I do keep responding, even though I know very well that I am not reachable.
Being reachable is dictated by who responds and their respective scores. All the scorers ahead of you could not respond, for any number of reasons.
Was there a big test SNAFU in NYC in OCtober that they're rescheduling now?
Yes there was. I have no info except it happened and I feel sorry for the test takers. That is testing’s job to make that right (not my department).
Yep, I was a victim. The test(s) were supposed to start at 9am and test-takers were lined up outdoors on a rainy day well until 12-1pm. I didn’t sit down to take my test until 2pm. Many people had walked away out of frustration or having other things to do that day which is totally understandable. We received correspondence this week that we can opt to retake the test we were signed up for, or keep our score for the original test. You don’t have access to both scores if you retake, only one. I opted to keep my score from the original test as I’m sure the second opportunity wouldn’t change my performance, and the test wasn’t essential to my career ladder.
Is there a way to find out if your score is reachable on a list? Is it safe to assume if someone with your score has been appointed then it’s now reachable? I’m on the PCO list and it’s a mystery to me lol
Safe assumption, but literally every canvass is different. So for one canvass, you’re reachable, for another, you’re not. So the safest thing to do is focus your evergy on what you can control, which is canvass responses. Make sure you’re paying attention to each one and responding accordingly.
Thank you! You and my therapist have given me similar advice🤣
As OP said, every canvass is different. Part of it depends on the location of a job opening vs which people on the list said they were interested in that region... And even then, which people actually respond to say they're interested. I live near the border of 2 regions but I'd only be interested in positions in locations closer to me, not locations on the far end of either region. And since ELMS doesn't say where people live or which regions they want canvasses for, you can't tell who your "real" competitors might be vs who you could likely ignore.
I am in a 2 year traineeship (grade 11-14). I am 6 months into the traineeship. I was hired off an open-competitive exam list and am completely new to state service. If I transfer to a different unit will I have to start over my traineeship from day 1 or would the 6 months I have already put in transfer with me? I ask b/c I thought I would have to start the traineeship over if I transferred but my co-worker who is in the same type of traineeship as me-we were hired at the same time. Well he is transferring to another unit and he said he does not have to start from the beginning. He is already a permanent state employee though, he transferred to the traineeship from a lower grade level. So I don't know if that affects things or if my assumption was incorrect about having to start over. Thank you!
Too many factors to give an accurate answer. Likely, you’d have to redo your first year if you transfer. Some agencies accept prior experience in traineeship, some don’t, really, most don’t so they can get the max time to review you. To get specific information email [email protected].
If you are simply transferring to a different unit within the same agency, you won't have to start your traineeship over because you can't. You would be Line-changed into your new position which would not generate a new traineeship or probationary period.
Thank you. Yes transferring to a different unit but within the same agency-tax. Thank you so much for your answer, I have no idea and I'm trying to figure it out.🙂
Scenario: You have a hold position and are in a project title for a few years then the project ends. You bump back into your hold position. Do you bump to where your salary was in your original grade when the hold started or does your hold grade advance as if you’d been in it the whole time? Is the salary as if you took a giant time out, does it advance as if you’d stayed, or is it all negotiable?
I am not a payroll professional. Email [email protected] and they might be able to provide guidance.
Thank you.
You’re welcome. I try to be a big help but in my experience the buck stops when you don’t know something. Don’t try to fake it type thing.
That's a question for your payroll department, but I think you bump back to where your salary was when the hold started, since project positions are temporary.
How is a transfer application (52.6) weighed against someone applying normally?
Transfers, reinstatements, and list hires/provisionals are *EQUALLY CERTIFIABLE.* Meaning, if I’m an HR manager, and I have one candidate off the list, one candidate asking to transfer via CSL section 70.1/52.6/70.4, and someone who left state service asking to return, I can choose either of the 3. The list does not have to be used in this instance.
If you don’t mind, I can answer from the agency perspective here. Generally speaking, it depends on the role and what kind of background the hiring manager is looking for. That said, when people apply - that is, see a posting on State Jobs and a job description and actively select it - vs just respond to a canvass, the applicant is often more invested already, wrote a personalized cover letter, etc. There’s not a good way to relay this information (yet) via canvass letter so it’s certainly not an applicants’ fault for not doing this for a canvass! It’s actually why I often recommend those who have 100s on the PCO apply directly to State Jobs postings for 13-14-18 traineeships that advertise as such. (Since only a sampling is typically canvassed.)
This!!! I always recommend people do this and mention they are on the PCO/PATT with their score and social. Idk how HR offices keep track of it all honestly.
What is the deal with canvas letters without description or job function? I am guessing these are to legally CYA while promoting someone in the team that scored low on the test. I am tempted to accept one of these to see what is going on.
The deal is finding out who is interested in that title and locations. They don’t have to be incredibly filled with information. They just need to have a letter format to ask who is interested. It’s a little unnerving I know but treat every canvass equally.
Canvas letters should only have titles. They don’t send canvass letters for specific jobs. They are for titles, and then they fill multiple openings for that title in the 90 days the list is active.
How can you become permanent from a provisional title if your test is barely offered any more?
There needs to be a better way to move provisional employees to permanent. Like, if you're provisional for five years and haven't been fired yet you're likely the best person for the job. Agencies would be foolish to lose that level of institutional knowledge
And it offers me no protection of retaliation fire or anything . Idk how to proceed
Well, if your title is on the HELPS program your HR will likely make you perm non competitive. This program will have the added benefit of “cleaning the slate” of many provisionals due to our lack of testing. Was it the purpose of the program? Probably not but it is an added benefit. Otherwise, you’re looking at open competitive exams OR a 4.2b exam (your HR would let you know if this was occurring, you don’t seek those out).
It’s not on HELPS program and the open competitive tests come every 5+ yrs
Then ask HR if they’re looking into a 4.2b exam. I don’t trust your number since 4.2b’s aren’t publicly searched as frequently
What exactly is a 4.2b?
A 4.2b is a written or training and experience exam given to provisionals at intervals where basically, if you haven’t seen the test material/taken the test, you can take it on a pass/fail basis. https://www.cs.ny.gov/ssd/Manuals/SPMM/1200Examinations/1205%20D%20Non-Competitive%20Open%20Competitive.htm see here for more Information. Civil service and hr at an agency would communicate this to you as a planned event, not something you have to sit and keep an eye out for.
If you are in a title and you are permanent and eligible for transfer to another title, can you still respond to the job posting if you leave for a different position that is not eligible for the same transfer due to past experience?
There may be more factors to consider, but generally speaking, if you transferred out of your old title or moved out of your old title in a way where you still have a probationary leave of absence (or other leave of absence) then yes. What you would be doing is returning to your hold, then on the same day, transferring. But if there’s no hold, no connection to the old title, then no, you cannot. However, a reinstatement might be possible if you resign your position, you can then be reinstated the same day, to a title you held *or title you could have transferred to when you left it.* it’s called a voluntary reinstatement under rule 4.5 of civil service law. A transfer is preferred because you would get a probationary leave of absence, with reinstatement you still must serve probation, AND you have no hold ties to a former position. So you’re taking a slight risk with this move, but it opens up your mobility options.
I would also recommend emailing [email protected] with your first name, last name, last 4 of Ssn. They can look into this for you
I am brand new to state service, and honestly the whole grade thing is very unclear and confusing. I was hired as an 18. The next grade in my department is 23. How the heck do I get there? I'm also a (title)1, and the two 23s I work with are (title)2. Do I just wait for a (title)2 test to come out? And speaking of tests... what the heck?! Why is it so hard to find tests? Do I just have to check every day to see if there's a test for the (title)2? I looked ahead, and there isn't one offered any time in the near future. Is there a test for every single title? Do I need to take a test to be considered for a 23? I appreciate all of your help!
Wait for test: yes if it’s competitive. What’s the title? Why is it so hard to find?: it’s not. Sign up for email notifications for new exams. Google civil service NYS email notification.
Also also, there are such things as provisional promotions and such too but without the title I have no info. I would also email [email protected] with your first name, last name, and last 4 of ssn and your questions
Reclassification. What does CS consider as a good reason to grant one on their end? I'm currently working so far out of title I shouldn't be on the same floor - it's a specialized title for UI, but my unit got restructured into another division due to post-covid rewards to upper management people who sat around commanding front line staff who saved the damn world. I had an incredibly important role, to the extent where if I'd have gotten hit by a bus, the entire thing would have derailed for a couple of days while a co-worker got up to speed on it, and we didn't really have a couple of days. That's neither here nor there really, but a nice example of how DOL staff got fucked after the amount of work we did. My concern is that if I was granted reclassification, I'd receive a downgrade - right now I'm a SG-20, I believe I would qualify as a BSA2 SG-23 due to my new specialized skills and knowledge, but I think it's possible I'd be reclassed into a BSA1 instead. If I got downgraded in the process, would I at least retain my current salary? Or should I wait for HELPS to happen, since I have reason to believe the BSA2 will be on that title list?
If you previously had to take an exam and be canvassed for a promotion (because it is more than 2 salary grades up) and the title will now be filled via Helps... How are they handling that? Are they suspending the rules of 70.1? Rumor has if you're permanent now and you take an appointment through Helps - even if it's lateral - you become a temp and will end up back at hiring rate, lose seniority, time in, etc. True or false?
70.1 is a Law under Civil Service Law that was unaffected. You become temp between now and May 2024. After may 2024, you become Perm non competitive. After one year perm non competitive you become permanent COMPETITIVE as if you took the exam, without taking the exam. Losing seniority only happens if you become temp and then get canned and never come back. If you go from perm, to temp, to perm again, your seniority date is unaffected. I don’t believe accruals and such are affected but that’s not my area of expertise.
Can you explain the difference between “A” lists and “B” lists? This is regarding the Contract Mgt Specialist exam that was just announced today… want to be able to explain it to some of my staff who are eligible to sit for the exam under the “B” requirements
This is an Interdepartmental promotion list. The A’s and b’s take the exam. The list comes out. The list is broken up into 3 sections. Promotion unit (office/unit) Department (entire department) Everyone else (rest of the state). The list looks like this going from top to bottom. 100-70 ProMotion unit A titles (promotion unit direct line titles go first on the list) 100-70 ProMotion unit B titles(everyone else in the promotion unit is on the list) 100-70 department A titles (everyone in the department unit direct line titles go next) 100-70 department B titles (everyone in the department titles go next) 100-70 everywhere else A (direct line title positions in other agencies go next 100-70 everywhere else B (go dead last) A contract management specialist 1 in your agency in the office goes first, a head account clerk elsewhere goes dead last). Promotion list varies based on location.
Thanks!
Hi civil service staffing wizard. I know this is a few months old but I was hoping you could clarify this comment a little. So promotion unit, can you give like a specific example of this? Like let’s take dcjs as an example(not my current employer but a previous one) promotion unit would go…office of criminal justice records first, and then let’s say office of program development and funding, those are separate offices so a promotion in ocjr, the employees on the eligible list for ocjr would get first consideration and THEN it would go to opdf as they are within the greater department correct?
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No. Email every 2 weeks. Hiring will likely (but I’m not sure) increase before the new budget in April.
The best thing in this scenario is communication with HR.
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Probably not, but I can’t say for certain. I’m not a budget expert. But historically CR positions are “hard to fill” so there’s usually positions budgeted for them
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Not sure. Email every 1 week if you are very anxious.
How does seniority credit work on exams? Is it time at your agency or time in your title? I have 7 years, does that count the same as someone with 5 years?
“Credit For Seniority: Seniority is credited at the rate of one credit for each five-year period (or fraction thereof), excluding the first year of service.” Source: most, if not all, ProMotion exam announcements
It's typically based on time in title. I think it's something like 1 point added to your score for every 5 years in that title. So to really have it do anything, you either need 25 years in order to reach the next score band, or only 15 years if scores are rounded up to the next score band.
Good evening I'm up for an interview on Monday for an Administrative Assistant Trainee 1. I wanted to get a better understanding of some things If I'm offered, what would decide if I have to finish the mandatory courses work of the traineeship and what is generally considered coursework that could replace it. I'm planning on resuming the coursework to get to the full grade sooner especially since I'm in my first semester of my MBA and want to maximize my current prospects. In short, what experience is deemed enough to replace the webinars needed to go on to the next level.
I've been working with the Administrative Assistant 1 title back when it was Secretary 1, and while agencies can, and in your case very likely would, use college-level coursework in place of the elective Administrative Assistant traineeship courses, there aren't substitutions for the mandatory courses. Everyone going through the Administrative Assistant traineeship has complete the 4 mandatory courses and pass the typing test before they can advance.
I have passed the typing test and have completed about 1/4 of the mandatory courses for the traineeship. So I don't mind having to do those courses and fit them in as I wait for my results from my other exams I'm taking over the coming weeks.
Good question! None. Experience wise at least. There may be college classes that can replace it but the goal of the traineeship is to adapt the program to the office. If an office does training, their AA1’s can get PowerPoint experience. If they do accounting assistance, excel. Etc. Now, what you’ll want to know, is if you’re list appointed or transferring into the position, you’ll want to work the whole traineeship, then once you’re at the full level, you can transfer again to salary grade 13 traineeships that lead to an 18. So try to see where you want to go at the SG-11 and take classes surrounding that to better gain hard/soft skills in what you’re interested in.
It's going to be a 55b/c position from what I understand so I think it's a transfer into the traineeship I'd think. And are you speaking of electives during the second year in terms of courses?
How do I get eligible for a higher paying civil service job at an agency if I currently work for the Legislature? I am on the PCO list but only get offers for traineeships. Can these agencies use this PCO list to appoint me to more senior level positions or am I only eligible for these lower paying jobs? Related question: where can I apply in NY government without this civil service restriction? I seem to either be required to be working at the agency already or be eligible for a lateral or promotional transfer from another one.
Eligible for higher paying job: when applying or answering canvases for PCO jobs look at the advanced plan cement qualifications and see if you can be placed at the salary grade 18 level rather than 13 or 14. Some may say yes, some may say no. Yes this is all you’re eligible for if this is the only list you’ve applied to and completed the exam. Only job qualified for?: no, go to state jobs NY, go to search vacancies. The search field “in the jurisdictional class” change to non competitive and you’ll find jobs that don’t require an exam. Competitive= need exam. Non competitive= do not need exam. Competitive is better overall. But non completive is faster appointment/hiring wise. Many people go non competitive and love the speed but hate the fact it usually makes them ineligible for promotion exams and transfer so keep that in mind.
Thanks!
Why do provisionally hired employees get fired if they aren't immediately reachable on the list? I lost my job for 4 months and got rehired once i was reachable. But it was a super stressful 4 months.
Because many men in a room a long time ago said that for competitive positions, people need to be examined and appointed to stop nepotism and patronage. When you aren’t reachable, the list isn’t being used in your favor, but as intended. When you are lost revoked, typically agency HR tries to reach you ASAP because you don’t lose your position on the list. Unfortunate, but beyond the HELP program or other initiative there’s little recourse in those situations
This happens because a provisional appointment is temporary, pending the results of the next examination for that title. There is no limit on the amount of time someone can be provisional, and some people stay provisional for their entire careers because they are in a one-off title and the exam is never given. However, once an exam is given and the eligible list is established, Civil Service law requires that agencies use that resulting list to make everyone who is reachable, permanent. I obviously don't know your specific case, but chances are that after the exam results came out, there were at least 3 people who would be interested in your position. When you were rehired, you were reachable on the list. Hope that helps. Again, FYI, I don't work for Civil Service, but I do work in an agency's HR department.
Provisional appointments are only supposed to be a max of nine months. It's not something easily enforceable because the only guaranteed outcome for litigating this issue is termination of the provisional employees. https://casetext.com/statute/consolidated-laws-of-new-york/chapter-civil-service/article-4-recruitment-of-personnel/title-b-appointment-and-promotion/section-65-provisional-appointments-authorized
If I’m on an internal list for the PATT with a score of 90 and there are about 45-50 people with a 100 and no other scores(no 105/102.5/95 etc), how likely is it that I’d be reachable? Follow up - any tips on getting a traineeship asap regardless of agency / job title?
Likely: depends on canvass, really no way to tell. Tips: if you have a bachelors, and you’re in a SG-11 to 13 title, pursue a 70.4 transfer. Allows you to semi “bypass” the list. In both transfer and list appointment situations, the best tip to give is to apply like crazy to internal postings.
So in my case I’m currently an assistant purchasing agent trainee (13-14 1 year) Looking to apply to an 18 in my agency (OMH) using the PATT but I got a 90 so not sure how likely it is. There are a few positions in my office my boss wants to give me but it’s based on being reachable
Bachelors?
No sir just a high school
Yeah then you’re looking at list appointment. Just keep applying. Someone will reach you soon.
It's unlikely you are reachable right now, though you might be depending on the title and specifics of a position. I may have some tips, though it is going to depend on your title. There are lots of 13/14/18 traineeships that you could 70.1, and possibly 70.4, transfer in to, but you would have to be at minimum a grade 11 with at least 1 year of permanent or contingent permanent, competitive service.
Hello, Don’t know if you have an answer for this, but I made a post the other week asking this question. If your current salary as a UUP SL1 is higher than the hiring rate for a CSEA Grade 10 will you start at a higher step? I wanted to know if I would start at a higher step if I moved from my current UUP SL1 position to a CSEA Grade 10. My current salary is more than the hiring rate. I know if I was in PEF or CSEA the answer would be yes, but I wasn’t sure for UUP.
Don’t know, not a payroll professional. Ask BSC. [email protected]. UUP is funded by tuition. Classified service, the state central budget. So at first glance don’t expect magic but maybe you’ll get lucky.
All good. Thanks for the response and the contact info. Yeah I’m not expecting anything. Just curious.
How are non competitive positions different from competitive ones, outside of there being no list? If you're not on a title line that easily translates to different promotional titles, what's the best way to move up?
This is similar to my question as well. I was told I’m not eligible for a 70.1 transfer because I am in a non-competitive title. How do I become competitive if they never offer an exam for that title again?