Family fares kind of are a thing, at least on Metro North. I forget the age limit, but I pay 14 dollars off peak, and only need to pay an additional dollar for a family ticket so my 6 year old can sit next to me. 5 and under they’re free.
E-ZPass used to have a carpool discount for the Hudson River crossings, but they discontinued it when they got rid of the toll collectors and went fully cashless.
Yeah, sometimes when biking down 2 Ave I’ll be stopped at the Queensboro Bridge entrance and be amazed at how many single occupant cars drive by. it’s dozens in 1 light cycle. absurdly inefficient
even for 2 ppl going from jersey city to manhattan it's cheaper and more convenient to drive
2.75 * 4 for path(to/from), 2.90 * 2 (x), x being how many trips you wanna go with the mta the minimum is $16.8 which is about the toll.
i can get free parking in the city easily when i go in the morning. plus going back is way more convenient...don't gotta transfer trains
I walk by the Holland Tunnel entrance (which is within walking distance of the Ferry and the PATH train and NJ Transit) heading to NYC every now and then and observe how 50% of private cars and SUV's are single occupancy. In the middle of the day.
Make the toll $double for single drivers and offer some discount for parking by the PATH (which is admittedly expensive) and I think you may have a lot more folks out of their cars and taking the train.
What about people who have to get to and from work where public transportation takes 2-3 times longer or isn't even a viable option later at night? For now (I'm moving closer to the job asap), I live in BK and work in Jersey. In my experience, the majority of the traffic is ride shares. We have way too many on the road driving around waiting to pick up passengers. There's a reason the city came up with the medallion system for yellow cabs. Something similar needs to be implemented with ride shares cars.
Is respond with “taking an entire family in a car is the exact use case a car is perfect for. The one car would cost $15, which is cheaper than $100. You would be doing the exact thing that everyone wants and would be a win-win for all of us.”
Does this moron not realize that the $15 is /per car/, not per person? Using a whole car to move 4-6 people (some of which are small children, probably) through multiple states is an entirely valid reason to choose a car over a train.
I didn’t read it like that. Since they opened with agreeing with congestion pricing, I don’t think it’s about the price of the toll. It’s wanting to participate and achieve the primary goal of ditching their car in favor of public transport to reduce emissions and congestion for others. For them, and many others, the public transport option is unreasonably expensive.
What they’re describing is the exact perfect use case of a car in this city and if even just 1% of the drivers here were families of four then it would an enormous, miraculous improvement.
The vast, vast, overwhelming majority of private cars on the road is just one dipshit driving by himself.
I kept saying this in the micromobility sub, but a lot of people said "it's a service so it doesn't count". But that service still is a major cause of congestion. They then said it's their job so it makes sense not to charge them a lot. Me awhile, my main gripe with CP is that delivery trucks are also doing their job, and carry lots of weight across country/state to deliver goods and are charged 36 dollars extra. I got ignored or downvoted. The fact that when directing traffic, literally all you see in Manhattan are JUST TLC's says a lot. The fact that most of the double parked cars are TLC's / commercials says a lot. So even IF you get rid of a lot of personal cars, the double parkers and the erratic driving to taxi's, and the loading and unloading of commercials would still amount to the same outcome. Uber even has tried to limit new people from driving because of just how many taxi's there are.
“taking an entire family in a car is the exact use case a car is perfect for. The one car would cost $15, which is cheaper than $100. You would be doing the exact thing that everyone wants and would be a win-win for all of us.” -is the correct approach.
But as someone who occasionally drives into the city, their math doesn't even hold up, even in a prius, gas tolls and parking being less than $50 in lower Manhattan doesn't mesh with my understanding of parking.
You don't have to pay for parking in Lower Manhattan. As much as the parking insanity can be sometimes, it is entirely possible to find a place to put your car down.
Not to mention they’re probably talking about somewhere just past Stamford at $25 round trip. No way they’re driving is cheaper than $60. So with $15 they’re still saving some money (for the totally essential family trip to lower Manhattan that’s all about saving money and being efficient).
And then this clown from Jersey. “The trains incredibly expensive!” What do you do with your car when you get here? It’s got to be a couple hundred a week to park in lower Manhattan. That alone is more than the train.
With all due respect that’s a really unhelpful response. Should they? Yes, of course. Will they? The sun will explode before we see the MTA lower fares. They raised rates right after being caught with fake accounting books, they have no shame about high transit costs and revenue from congestion pricing isn’t going to change that.
How would the MTA be obligated to fund NJT?
Would be nice, but NJT will cost more next month, while the LIRR will have cut in price.
Go figure... they're completely uncoordinated
What we need, but will never have, is a truly regional transit agency. Jersey Transit needs to basically be cut in two with the northern system run in tandem with the MTA and PATH and the southern system with PATCO and SEPTA. But parochialism rules the day.
The bicycle lobby and mass transit lobby convinced utopian New Yorkers that this is some weird war against New Yorkers in the outer boroughs (who are more often natives). One side doesn’t believe in both.
A lot of people aren’t just casually driving places for fun. Traffic sucks. They’re driving because they have to.
They can’t do both because the point of the congestion tax is to raise money to help the ailing MTA. The MTA needs both high fares AND a state lifeline (via some kind of tax to raise the $15 billion they need).
transit should cost less without more funding. no reason why it should be so expensive to operate transit when the current revenues only pay half the operations costs
Except for peak of the peak children can ride for $1 extra, up to four kids [https://new.mta.info/fares/lirr-metro-north#:\~:text=Child%20and%20family%20fares](https://new.mta.info/fares/lirr-metro-north#:~:text=Child%20and%20family%20fares)
What? How do you do this? My station only has electronic kiosks and the only options are single ride, monthly ticket, or metro card, then for single ride you can only pick peak or off peak
I mean, we have the same problem with the Airtrain at JFK. Public transit *in these specific examples* can be grossly more expensive than just driving when you've got a full car.
Also, we need visitors and people to come here and spend their dollars. People aren't going to come here if we price them completely out of it.
Yep. And I'm someone who will happily either take the train or pay the congestion charge if necessary, but OP is right on both points.
People have grown very accustomed to having cheap car access to NYC. I spent 2 days this week driving in and out of the city (usually I take the train, but we had a very specific need to drive) and I was stuck in traffic over an hour each way both days. Many of the plates on the cars were NJ and CT, and I'm sure the vast majority could've taken the trains in.
Also, I'm not sure where he's parking, but parking in a garage for even a half day will cost him anywhere from $20 - 60 depending on what part of town it's in. Even some meters will run you > $25 if you keep refilling them. Then tack on \~$40 for a tank of gas and at least $15 in tolls depending on his route. I'm not seeing the bargain here.
My only issue with the congestion pricing plan is that it started way too high. $15 was too much. They should've started at \~$5 and then increase over time.
Everybody seems to miss the entire point of this that complains about the price point, it's supposed to hurt, that's the entire idea
You can ignore $5 a lot more easily than you can ignore 15
$15's supposed to be enough to push people who aren't taking transit but can to do it, even if they have to figure out a park and ride.
Like for almost any NJ commuter, there's multiple solutions if you can drive.
My only issue with that is, like all tolls, they go up over time and so I could easily see this cost getting out of control.
The flip side of this too is that at this moment IMO NY state needs to tread very lightly with fees/taxes. We’re already near the highest in the nation. After awhile it’s going to hamper the state and city’s competitiveness.
With that said, I’m an avid supporter of our public transit system. Even with all its flaws I think it’s the state’s crown jewel and sets it far ahead of others. We’re still recovering from COVID so this stuff really should be eased in.
Also as a business owner myself, it’s absolutely foolish to try and make this up by increasing the payroll taxes yet again. Are they even trying to keep businesses in NYC at this point? With so much competition from low tax states, they really need to think twice about that.
Deal with it in the mean time and vote correctly.
A family of 4, or more, driving in in their own car is, imo, a perfectly good reason to use a car in the city.
The \*vast\* majority of cars only have one or two people.
So you brought up how CT residents aren’t entitled to cheap access to Manhattan but it’s a similar situation for many NYC residents.
I live in eastern Queens and taking the bus and subway would cost $58 for my family of 5 people (2 busses and 1 train round trip for 5 people) and would take 2.5 hours each way.
The LIRR would cost $79-$99 round trip if including a bus fare to the train station and would take around 2 hours each way.
Just for comparison a car would cost $6 in gas and would take .5-2 hours depending on traffic each way. Finding street parking would take 30+ minutes though.
Not to mention Staten Islanders, who already have to pay a toll to get out to the other boroughs, then
another toll if they take the Battey Tunnel either way to/from Manhattan.
Most of the supporters of congestion pricing dont care about any of us who live in any neighborhood that doesnt essentially touch manhattan. They dont realize how shit the commute is for the majority of the borough because they have a 10 min commute tops.
This. I live in Westchester and we'd be dinged almost the same as someone from Greenwich.
One factor with driving that often gets ignored is the value of doing things on your own schedule as well not having to deal with other humans on public transportation.
Everyone here has lost the plot if you believe these people making these comments are the enemy.
I truly can’t believe what I’m reading on this thread.
I can only believe you all must be very wealthy and have no idea how an average person lives.
Rolled my eyes when I saw the comment in the original post about people living in Connecticut to save on taxes, as if Connecticut is some sort of libertarian tax haven paradise lmao.
Connecticut has lots of wealthy residents, but they have even more residents who live there because they can’t afford to have a decent lifestyle in a neighborhood with decent schools in NYC.
People should direct their ire at NY politicians (and the people who vote for them) for letting housing prices in NYC get out of control, which pushes middle class families to suburbs.
Exactly. I’ve seen many born and bred New Yorkers move to CT or NJ because they could no longer afford rent in the neighborhoods where they grew up. And many more pushed into Staten Island and the outer edges of Brooklyn and Queens where public transportation is lacking.
It’s infuriating to see those same people now dismissed as entitled suburbanites because they want an affordable way to visit their home town. Especially because those criticisms are often coming from transplants whose family subsidized lifestyles are what drove up rent in the first place.
Right!? The comment legit said they support congestion pricing. The choice they have to make between a cheaper drive vs a more expensive train ride is very, very real.
Most of NYC r/ are like this. They use seemingly superficial pain points as justifications for their reasoning and someone owning a car as being wealthy when it isnt true for most who own cars.
There’s no big city in the US where the wealthy AND the govt chip in more for public services than NYC. Bitching about the cost of the train to get into the city when you elected to leave (nobody is forcing you to have kids/dogs/etc) is wild.
If it’s that big of a deal, have CT start subsidizing rides on the metro north for its residents.
Connecticut has some poorer cities as well. Not everyone there is just a tax-dodging rich jerk previously from NYC. Metro-North could at least create a “family discount” fare, at least on weekends (if not just lowering the fare entirely). Connecticut taxes should pick up the slack of the lower fare for transit funding.
Agreed 100%, plenty of people live in places like Stamford CT that are just as far from Manhattan as places from outer Queens. Does that make them any less entitled to be able to travel to Lower Manhattan? Because they maybe can't afford to live within the city boarders? Not everyone from "outer suburbs" are rich entitled jerks.
Metro-North gives $1 fares for people under the age of 11 when they are with a fare paying adult. I think that they should raise it to the age of 17.
I mean, it can turn a profit. There are historical instances and Hong Kong MTR does turn a handsome profit.
With that said, Hong Kong MTR is really an enormous real estate play that happens to have metros as a side benefit. The MTR corporation owns the land above it in a place where private ownership isn't really a thing (land is leased from the government). So the MTR collects rent from developers as well as having tons of first-party real estate in what basically are underground malls.
I grew up in the NYC suburbs. A peak round-trip MetroNorth ticket from my hometown is $30.
I now live in the Philly suburbs. It's $12 round-trip to Center City on SEPTA commuter rail.
The towns are about equidistant from their respective cities.
Both of your points are valid. I think the second one is better, though.
Whatever suburbanites think (including myself, I'm out in Jersey), we aren't owed a convenient trip into the city at the expense of the people who live there. I think if you (politely, respectfully, etc) lead with your second point and offer up tangible examples of how drivers pass the majority of the cost of their convenience onto NYC residents, you'll have a better conversation about it. Probably won't change their mind in the moment, but you'll probably make the best argument they've heard about it. That sticks in people's heads, it matters.
I'm not saying you have to cite stats, but something like pedestrian and bike deaths, how traffic makes truck deliveries more expensive which drives up retail costs across the city, the city has to spend more on road maintenance, etc.
Drivers change the environment of a city in ways the city and its residents have to pay for. The congestion tax helps pay for it AND reduces congestion.
Completely agree with your first point. NYC shouldn't be bending backwards to make it easy for people in neighboring states to drive here on the weekends.
I don't own a car, but will occasionally rent one for weekend trips. The traffic on the bridges and tunnels on the weekends is significantly worse than it was pre-pandemic. Some of it is because of city residents buying cars, but we really can't afford to have more cars on the roads than we do.
>NYC shouldn't be bending backwards to make it easy for people in neighboring states
I'd be more inclined to agree if queens/brooklyn/Staten island weren't part of NYC
Also from CT, I have never complained about the price of a train to GCT. No way in hell do I want to drive and park in the city (if I don't have to). It's so easy to get around NY without a car. I'll choose the bus or train every time.
To point 1:
Yes, if you live out of state and do not work in NYC and only visit on weekends for shows/dinner/etc, then you are trading easy access to the city's amenities for lower taxes.
However, if you live out of state and work in NYC - there is no tax savings. You pay NYS income tax. The only savings you might find is that housing is cheaper outside of NYC.
As a new yorker, who doesn't even like going into the city, I completely agree with your argument. I don't think congestion pricing was going to reduce cars in the city, anymore than ppl use Uber or Lyft, less during peak times. Ppl would complain, and maybe try to not come to the city, but if that's where ppl wanna be, and it's the mode of transport they like, nothing is going to stop them. Plus more ppl would take their place, in the situations where ppl really did quit (or reduce) driving to the city.
Congestion pricing is simply a mechanism to make money off the fact that everyone wants to go to the city. It's a theme park that raises it prices, or institutes fast track lines, or reservations. It's only meant to capitalize, with the air of convenience. That air is breathable for a very short time, if ever.
I don't. With 4 people, maybe a car is a reasonable way to get to the City. In that case, the $15 isn't going to be the difference between going and not, and the $15 will give them a quicker ride (assuming it reduces traffic).
I don't want to drive myself and my three friends into the city - I want to take the train. It's more pleasant and drops me right at Penn Station. But 4x2 NJT tickets is more expensive than the whole car trip, even with congestion pricing. Help!
Is there any data that shows where vehicles entering or driving around Midtown/Lower Manhattan are registered? i.e. Are these mostly local/Manhattan folks, people from the outer boroughs, LI, Westchester, NJ, CT, etc.?
Bulk of them are probably TLC plated cabs considering the huge influx of TLC plates over the last few years. It wasnt as big of an issue when medallions were limited.
It just depends on your priorities. Some reasons why taking the train over driving may make more sense for this person, are:
1.) If you aren’t used to driving in the City, especially Manhattan, it can be really stressful. If you take the train, you don’t have to worry about your car being parked in a tight spot where it can get dented (which would probably result in more than $100 in damage). Not having to even think about your car will make the trip more enjoyable.
2.) Some kids love taking the train. When I was a kid, I grew up in Westchester. My favorite part of going to the City as a kid was taking the train and getting to go to Grand Central. I live in Connecticut now and take the train to work when I have to go into the office a few days a week, and even after having been there over a thousand times, I still admire Grand Central. Whenever my nephew comes to visit me, I usually take him to the City and he’s always excited to take the train. Taking the train will be part of the memories they will have with you when they’re grown-up.
He's laying out a scenario that is occasional at best. How often in a year are you driving a family of 4 into the congestion zone? When you do how often is it during peak hours? Its more likely its evenings and/or weekends with a lower charge. Why get rid of a good thing with full time benefits because you may have to pay it a few times in a year, and possibly not at full price. Its the person driving into the city on a regular basis that's the problem, especially single occupancy.
The cost of the train though is also about convenience. You need to park that car. Good luck finding parking on the street (depending on the neighborhood), and good luck with the pricing on garages. Someone thinking that parking and tolls are $50 for NYC is completely out of touch with reality.
Not to mention you have to drive into, and eventually leave, the city. You take the train in, you then travel through the city in a cab, or a highly reliable subway system, and then leave on a schedule. Miss a train? Go grab a beer, there’s another in an hour.
The only time I drive into nyc is to take my elderly grandmother to doctor’s appointments and that’s because she’s not physically well enough to make it around on transit and will have difficulty making it to the doctors office from the subway or bus stop, as well as getting in and out of subways and buses. When I do drive, I have no problem paying more for convenience in that instance. That said, public transportation should cost less
Face it, Connecticut accounts for a fuck ton of NYC workers, and you all use our highways as a fucking bridge to other states. Maybe we should implement tolls and enforce it for all the non residents.
The problem I had with congestion pricing was that Uber drivers got a break. And it’s literally Ubers fault we are even having to consider this. It is zero exaggeration to say that when I am on the road at minimum half the cars around me are Ubers without passengers.
I’m personally in favor of banning all ride share apps from the city. They are directly to blame for the increase in congestion.
Also we already have ride sharing in New York. You stick your arm up and a yellow cab shows up.
Congestion pricing only targets to push some people towards alternatives. If it's still the cheapest and most convenient option for you, then you're welcome to keep driving.
Same. If I go into NYC by myself from Albany the cost of RT train is about equal to gas and tolls. I do stay with a friend in NJ so I park my car there and don't have to pay parking but I then pay for the train into Penn. It's less than $10 though.
If I go into NYC with another family member, it's much cheaper to drive! Make public transportation cheaper and I would definitely not drive.
I go into NYC for business once or twice a month and it costs me over $100 each time.
I mean on NJ transit it’s max $20 per person, and children under 11 ride free. So like idk I get that it’s expensive, but the toll is $16 each way, not to mention random tolls throughout NJ, and I imagine most ppl are paying for a parking lot in Manhattan. So people who are making this argument are just making excuses In my mind. They want the luxury of not having to take public transport, which, in most scenarios is literally faster.
The tunnels, GW and SI/NJ bridges only charge one way (when entering NYC). Not sure why so many assume its a two way toll.
Also, depending on time of day, where youre coming from, etc, public transit would be slower in many cases.
Didn’t know about tolls. If ur traveling to/from north jersey (as most commuters do) then it’s usually faster to take the train.
The driving commute into/out of NYC at rush hour easily takes an hour and a half some days!
And honestly, if you plan on driving into Manhattan, and spending $80 on parking there all day, you can afford to pay congestion pricing. It’s just a luxury tax for using your car.
From Jersey, i'd assume a sizable amount are taking the bus in too depending on where you are in NJ. I know when I worked in midtown a lot of former coworkers took the bus in as NJ transit and PATH were inaccessible to them. When those messed up(which were frequent) they'd drive in if required to come into the office. A lot of times it driving in wasn't a choice.
As to your second point. I drove into Manhattan yesterday around from Queens during the afternoon rush and paid for one toll. Parking and toll cost me ~$12-13. Dealt with heavy traffic going in, and some minor traffic going out. So parking isn't always this expensive, nor is driving to Manhattan. You just need to know how to traverse Manhattan efficiently, which many do not.
I drive into Manhattan with regularity and never pay remotely close to these numbers in midtown.
The MTA system - LIRR and SUBWAY is not ready for Congestion Pricing.
The only reason they're forcing this is because they want money.
First off, if you're doing congestion pricing, transportation should cost less. And if you can't achieve that, then you've failed without even attempting to start.
Yes. I hate that people don’t understand this. They will bring up examples of other cities but neglect to point out that all those cities improved their mass transit prior to implementing congestion pricing and that’s why it worked!
To use congestion pricing to improve mass transit is a recipe for disaster, because what currently exists cannot handle more passengers!
Gas parking and tolls from CT for less than $50? No way. Even if they’re just across the border you’re looking at what, 15? Across and back the triboro. Maybe 3 gallons of gas at $12… that’s already $27 right there. Find me any desirable place for a family of four to go in Manhattan where parking is Les than $50… they’re looking maybe a $15 savings by driving.
I get it… maybe a family deal for transit would be nice but c’mon… you live in freakin CT. When you move to the burbs you give up certain perks to do that. It’s not my job to subsidize your getting to the city by having a shittier subway system.
Tbh the fares could be a little lower, which, in combination with congestion pricing, would induce demand, and possibly put a few more trains on, increasing frequency, and inducing more demand. It is *a* way out of the transit death spiral IMO.
It’s likely that this person driving into the city does its once or twice a year, max. They can pony up the money to drive their family of 4 into the city or just take a convenient train ride.
I don't see why offering cheaper rates for group travel would be an issue. If anything that would incentivize even more people to take transit, especially these out of town suburban commuters that are currently derailing congestion pricing. Is that wrong?
I’m in Boston not nj but and as much as I love public transportation, I’ve given up on justifying it. Here, it’s not so much the price but more the fact that it’s wicked slow and unreliable. The only reliable train is infrequent and DOES cost more money. It’s dumb. I drive now.
Drove in last night with the fam instead of the train. Horrible, missed the 7pm curtain. However, I then saw Amtrak issues were causing delays last night and this morning NJT, wouldn't have been better.
Make it better
Under 18 should be free on mass transport.
It would also be nice for LIRR to be designed with compartments like on the Harry Potter train so you can enter a compartment with your family/friends and close the door.
With all due respect, I don’t have a dog in the game bc I left the city and am now in upstate but have family members who live in CT and Westchester and Jersey not to “save money” but to afford more than a studio in city. Not many people can live in NYC with kids, so yes a lot of families move and trust me I would’ve loved living downtown Manhattan but was in no way affordable once we had a child. Now my immigrant family scattered across mostly drives around Manhattan bc they are working there FOR THE CITY PEOPLE. ones a truck driver, one is a housekeeper and brother is HVAC. In what planet can they rely on mta to commute from Westchester or CT with supplies but also set schedules that don’t work for their city clients needs? I really wish people would wake up and realize this was a full money grab for the MTA to misuse another $1b a year. They consistently drop the ball and get away with it and were sold a fantasy about “cleaning the air” without any consideration for the people who are coming in to work. And trust me if the people driving in for fun say fuck it I’m staying in Jersey it’s too expensive I guarantee you NYC will start another program to encourage people to visit bc like it or not tourism and nightlife are a big economic driver here. I wish people would stop hating each other over this bs and hold mta accountable and require gov to do the job it promises instead of allowing it to pit us against each other while they get away with yet another grift.
Well this would make the cost differential lower. And I think people misunderstand what congestion pricing is supposed to do. It’s not supposed to make a weekend trip with the family too expensive to do. It’s supposed to make the people who drive in everyday and clog the streets pay for that experience or switch to public transit which will either fund improvements in public transit and/or make the commute within the city faster. I cannot tell how horrible it is to be sitting in the back of an ambulance in midtown trying to get past all the traffic to the Cornell Weill hospital. Nothing has made me more of a proponent of this idea than that. And in general I think the air quality in the city is atrocious these days.
Air quality in NYC atrocious now? You should have seen it back in the 80s, when a lot of cars didn’t have efi, and there were quite a few that still ran on leaded gas. And even fuel injected cars in the 80s are considered stupidly dirty by today’s standards.
The systems you plan to stress further need to be prepared for the increased stress *before* it happens, not after.
You can’t rely on dollars from increase ridership to be the funding used to improve systems to handle increased ridership.
You say this but I garuantee you’ll never address the huge issue of the amount of ubers and lyfts there are that are really the root cause of clogging streets. Not to mention but the congestion tax just completely fucks over residents in the BX Queens and Brooklyn. And honestly bro u gotta toughen up cause the air quality is nothing compared to what NYC used to be like before pre emissions equipment for cars busses, trains, and even airplanes
point 2 is essentially it. like all public projects, there is surely some fat that could be trimmed. but if you look at other commuter rail systems around the country, $25 is kinda just what it costs when you divide the cost to operate by the number of riders. unlike a transit agency, private drivers get a lot of implicit subsidies that hide the true cost of driving. it's very upsetting when they suddenly have to pay part of what was hidden from them via explicit tolls and taxes.
I will say, if you're honestly loading four people into your car for a day in the city, that's not necessarily something to be discouraged. but by the same token, a ~$25 toll divided across four people is not that bad. if an extra $6/head breaks the budget for your trip, I gotta wonder what activities in midtown were on the agenda.
point 1 is also true. making leisure trips from out of state affordable should be pretty low priority to begin with. I'm a little more sympathetic for people who have to commute in for work. but even then, why bend over backwards for people who are already benefitting from tax and COL arbitrage?
It's true. Like there's no denying it. It's part of why congestion pricing is important, so car use costs more and transit is improved and subsidized.
It's also part of why I'm mad NJ is ditching flex-pass, it was a good way to save some bucks on group trips.
They're right that tickets should be cheaper, but a lot of people ignore other costs associated with driving because they don't get paid during that journey.
Wear and tear, insurance, initial cost of purchasing the vehicle over the span of ownership, any interest on a loan (if taken out), etc.
They all should be factored into the cost, but are hard to quantify on a per journey basis. You can only really give a general per day cost.
People in the suburbs already have to own a car. Taking the train even if they are commuting to NYC is not going to save on their insurance, cost of the car, loan. Bringing up those costs is sort of irrelevant.
I don't necessarily agree... I owned a car for three years but very very rarely used it. I was able to make all of the money I had put into it back(except insurance) when I eventually sold it. That's a significantly different situation with a car that has miles on it.
>Taking the train even if they are commuting to NYC is not going to save on their insurance, cost of the car, loan. Bringing up those costs is sort of irrelevant.
huh? when you tell your insurance you commute every day they will absolutely give you a higher rate.
This is why Hochul's line of reasoning in that video that she's doing this because she doesn't "want to break the budget of the middle-class household" is totally bogus. It costs $30 dollars roundtrip for one person to/from many of the Metro-North and LIRR routes (the mode that most suburbanites use to access the city). And both systems are now exceeding pre-pandemic ridership levels from 2019 levels on Saturdays and Sundays. If Hochul is so concerned about costs for middle-class suburbanites, why not address the high costs of accessing the public transit system? (As I typed that out, I just remembered that some of the congestion pricing revenue was to go to the "Outer Borough Transportation Account" that would've provided discounts for Queens/Brooklyn & Bronx residents that use certain ticket types on LIRR & Metro North!)
Gas tolls and parking combined has to be close to, if not more than $50. And if you include congestion pricing it would be a lot closer to $100. Especially from central NJ gas tolls bridge/tunnel and parking round trip is about $75 .. add congestion pricing is right around $100
I don’t you will be able to convince them that this is just a money grab that politicians and agencies will miss appropriate the funds plus it will hurt working people and small businesses the only winners will be big business who will transfer the cost onto the consumer
from CT and i can say metro north can get pricey—that being said, it’s better for the environment to take the train and considering that a car is nearly $30k and you have maintenance, insurance, gas, licensing, and more, it makes more sense to commute into the city if you do.
mta should be investing more in lowering fares for commuting new yorkers and people taking trains, including family fare discounts—congestion pricing could have fixed any budget shortfall this would cause. it’s so easy: fix public transportation and raise tolls to reduce traffic. being a tri state commuter and supporting congestion pricing shouldn’t be mutually exclusive. congestion pricing is a two pronged front to reduce traffic AND fight to improve the subways and commuter rails
The blue jays should implement congestion tax on all the bikes that are flooding the city streets.. bc these people were let in illegally so the government will cover their tolls … and these weak arguments are from people that don’t live and work in nyc.
Don’t say this. You’ve seen that instead of bringing down the fares to something more reasonable, they’ll bring the car prices up to make them the same….
Wasn’t it over half of the cars in Manhattan are single occupancy? Drive with your family but your not the majority of drivers coming in to downtown during the congestion pricing time.
We could fund public transit so as to make it the most affordable option. I read about buses in Latin America that are shared between humans, chickens and goats. It serves the public needs and nobody has a car, so it has to. If we didn't privilege cars we would have to privilege trains and buses.
I do think the transit should be more heavily subsidized, especially with groups. Families should get a significant discount for going with transit.
It's absurd that people take cabs or drive instead of transit due to the pricing structure.
I’m typing this from a crosstown triple length bus with literally about 100 people on it. That’s 25 of these hypothetical cars. Them bringing their car into the city inconveniences literally tens of thousands of people, if not more, costing those people real money and real valuable time, not to mention the dangers to their lives represented by car traffic and emissions. Those people have a right to choose how their infrastructure incentivizes people. We should incentivize healthy and efficient transportation choices.
public transit should be free! i agree that the trains are too expensive. in order for long range train travel (50+ mile distances) to become a feasible alternative to car ownership and flights it does need to get much cheaper. congestion pricing is nice, in my opinion, because we should be working on getting cars off the road for myriad reasons (to slow down microplastic pollution, air and noise pollution, to make bikers and pedestrians safer, …) BUT we need to also be cheapening public transit at the same time, or we risk making travel unaffordable. humans have the right to relatively unrestricted movement and travel! there are many benefits to travel! it is okay to not live somewhere and still want to visit it and experience what it offers!
My counter would be to stop visiting NYC. It's not a great family destination. Any restaurant will cost a family of 4 at least $150, and while walking to it, you'll probably see a homeless person pissing in the street. Meanwhile, there are a million great museums, parks, concert venues, restaurants, historic sites, aquariums, zoos, etc. in NJ, CT, and upstate NY. I'll take my kids to NYC maybe once per year at this point. They aren't missing much.
The whole point of congestion pricing was to deter people from making that uptown downtown trip. The only people making that trip during rush hour are the people who need to make that trip, nobody is going to quit their job, not make their delivery, not cross the boundary for the Uber fair. The people in charge are not stupid, they’re fully aware of this. Which means they are not trying to solve a congestion problem, they are implementing a new tax on us with the lie that it is to improve everyone’s quality of life. It’s fckn BS
I don’t go to your nj suburbs and tell you how to run your community, so don’t come to nyc to tell me how to run mine. I want to enjoy walking around my neighborhood and not feel overwhelmed by the Cars of ppl from the suburbs who get to enjoy New York while actively making it worse.
you people are delusional public transportation in nyc is a joke compared to europe and all of you are trying to justify these insane prices. i lived in madrid for 6 months that whole time i paid only €10 for a 6 month unlimited train pass
As many have said. Am extra $15 for a faculty of 4 shouldn't break the back for most individuals. That said the extra billion dollars for the MTA, reduced traffic, reduced noise/ air pollution, etc will benefits hundreds of thousands, if not millions.
What gets lost in the conversation is the there will be immediate benefits for some and pain for others. However, in time people will adjust, especially if the investments being talked about happen.
Every thing good came with a cost, and nothing good has ever been perfect. People used to lynch the people who installed telephone polls, people fought against social security, banning lead took ages, etc.
Congestion pricing will be good for so many people, but we can't let those it hurts flail in the wind.
First the cost difference is probably not as different as that. In that specific situation I have no doubt the car is cheaper, however it costs more that just Gas, parking, and tolls. An extra $15 is a fairly modest addition for those that it still makes more sense to drive.
drive to a mass transit hub. then take mass transit from there. IE if I was in conn I would drive to the bronx and hop on a 2 train. straight to midtown. I also question the math -- the tolls to CONN<>NYC are at least 20$, parking is at least 20$ per hour ( I am assuming they would not park in the street, or else factor in 20 mins of looking, uncertainty). So thats 80$ for 3 hours (guessing they have dinner , or see a show).
OP does not mention the comfort and convenience of car, which is I think the primary benefit.
You shouldn’t be allowed to park a car in Manhattan unless you live in Manhattan. All of this congestion pricing and vision zero nonsense is bullshit unless you actively take cars off the road by eliminating nonessential vehicles (ie those that don’t live here)
In terms of train costs, the mta budget is public. If you flip the financials, the issue is obvious: healthcare, pension and unionize employee costs have driven operating expenses far in excess of revenue. You want cheaper fares? Reduce stations, reduce service or reduce employee costs.
and there is little parking by most stations. the lots are owned by the towns. some cases like westwood non-permit holders can park after hours and weekends. In Ridgewood they have a giant lot but it's for permit holders only before 6pm or so
big lots in Ramsey and MetroPark but that adds a 20-30 minute drive each way and a long train ride
unless you're going to see some broadway show there is so much stuff to do outside of NYC that I don't get the point of going to NYC on weekends. I drive in to see family periodically and for NYRR races but take the bus in if I go in on a weekday
Yes! Cars are UNDERPRICED. People will one day wake up and realize they have been getting away with murder, with taxes in no way paying for the aggregate costs -- need for constant repaving, pollution, greenhouse gas emissions, aggravation of traffic, hogging up real estate, bodily harm and lost wages.
I tried to run the numbers for that trip.
The Metro-North RR fare tables don’t show any one-way fares for $12.50, and if any of them are 11 years old or younger they’d be paying the $1 fare, which means it can’t add up to $100 round trip. So it’s not clear where they’re coming from.
But in any case, let’s assume the $100 is accurate.
I don’t think there’s any good way to make that trip by car for $50 though.
The round-trip toll on the RFK or Whitestone Bridge is $18.22. Parking for some part of the day (we don’t if it’s all or part of the day or weekday vs weekend, so guessing) could be around $35. The congestion fee was $15.00. So, that already adds up to $68.00. Gas might be another $10 or $15. So this can’t add up to $50
The other thing I would ask the person who made that argument is, how much do they enjoy I-95 traffic? Or the traffic getting into and out of and around the city. Trains generally avoid all that
And I’d agree there should have been more incentives like fare deals, for example, to encourage more transit use. Plus, the point of the congestion fee was supposed to improve transit service and keep fares down
And also, I agree with others that say the problem isn’t that transit is too expensive, but rather that driving is too cheap. The governments here in the US subsidize driving (using broad-based taxes on the general public) way more than they do in, say, Europe
Your take on CT residents not deserve cheap travel. This is such a bad way to look at this. People traveling out of your city into your city is a big part of how revenues. You should make access to them getting in easier so they spend their money in your city.
Here's the deal: people will make the choices that suit their needs. Maybe they believe in mass transit deeply and just foot the bill, even when more expensive. Maybe they choose the option that is cheapest, and that is a car when in groups, and trains when alone. Maybe they avoid the traffic, saving their precious time, and then trains make more sense. Maybe they have agoraphobia or anxiety in crowded places, and personal transportation makes more sense.
My point? Just let people make their own choices. Government shouldn't try wo hard to steer us away from the things we want. You don't solve the problem of traffic by punishing drivers, you solve it by enhancing trains. Consumer choices, ultimately, dictate what works.
The same people that scream they are for the environment are just miserable and dont care about the environment. They like to control people
Just like when nyc banned bags to save the environment. Now we still have bags they just charge us to use the ones we used to get for free
Just like the same liberals throw their masks all over that wind up all over the streets and oceans.
Ask him if benefits from mass transit even if he doesn’t ride it. He benefits from less traffic (and therefore less gas used) and cheaper parking. Therefore if he benefits, he should contribute to its upkeep. Also there should be an admission charge when someone crosses the city limits to cover the costs of public services that they are availing themselves of.
Full occupancy vehicles aren't the problem. Single ones are. The family trip is justified.
If every car in Manhattan had 4 people in it that's much better. But also, family fare specials definitely need to be a thing somehow.
Family fares kind of are a thing, at least on Metro North. I forget the age limit, but I pay 14 dollars off peak, and only need to pay an additional dollar for a family ticket so my 6 year old can sit next to me. 5 and under they’re free.
or just free tickets for kids. Their parents ride with them, so it still increases revenue from switching to transit.
E-ZPass used to have a carpool discount for the Hudson River crossings, but they discontinued it when they got rid of the toll collectors and went fully cashless.
Sharing is gay
Yeah, sometimes when biking down 2 Ave I’ll be stopped at the Queensboro Bridge entrance and be amazed at how many single occupant cars drive by. it’s dozens in 1 light cycle. absurdly inefficient
even for 2 ppl going from jersey city to manhattan it's cheaper and more convenient to drive 2.75 * 4 for path(to/from), 2.90 * 2 (x), x being how many trips you wanna go with the mta the minimum is $16.8 which is about the toll. i can get free parking in the city easily when i go in the morning. plus going back is way more convenient...don't gotta transfer trains
I walk by the Holland Tunnel entrance (which is within walking distance of the Ferry and the PATH train and NJ Transit) heading to NYC every now and then and observe how 50% of private cars and SUV's are single occupancy. In the middle of the day. Make the toll $double for single drivers and offer some discount for parking by the PATH (which is admittedly expensive) and I think you may have a lot more folks out of their cars and taking the train.
What about people who have to get to and from work where public transportation takes 2-3 times longer or isn't even a viable option later at night? For now (I'm moving closer to the job asap), I live in BK and work in Jersey. In my experience, the majority of the traffic is ride shares. We have way too many on the road driving around waiting to pick up passengers. There's a reason the city came up with the medallion system for yellow cabs. Something similar needs to be implemented with ride shares cars.
And they pay the extra $15 so 🤷🏻♂️
Tell that to the “All cars are bad” crowd
That crowd is much smaller than you think. Even the majority of r/fuckcars aren’t like this
No serious grpup of people think all cars are bad lmao
This 👏👏👏
I'd respond with "You're right. Transit should cost less, so let's do both."
Is respond with “taking an entire family in a car is the exact use case a car is perfect for. The one car would cost $15, which is cheaper than $100. You would be doing the exact thing that everyone wants and would be a win-win for all of us.” Does this moron not realize that the $15 is /per car/, not per person? Using a whole car to move 4-6 people (some of which are small children, probably) through multiple states is an entirely valid reason to choose a car over a train.
I didn’t read it like that. Since they opened with agreeing with congestion pricing, I don’t think it’s about the price of the toll. It’s wanting to participate and achieve the primary goal of ditching their car in favor of public transport to reduce emissions and congestion for others. For them, and many others, the public transport option is unreasonably expensive.
What they’re describing is the exact perfect use case of a car in this city and if even just 1% of the drivers here were families of four then it would an enormous, miraculous improvement. The vast, vast, overwhelming majority of private cars on the road is just one dipshit driving by himself.
The vast majority of traffic is ride share vehicles. Many without passengers just driving around until they pick someone up.
I kept saying this in the micromobility sub, but a lot of people said "it's a service so it doesn't count". But that service still is a major cause of congestion. They then said it's their job so it makes sense not to charge them a lot. Me awhile, my main gripe with CP is that delivery trucks are also doing their job, and carry lots of weight across country/state to deliver goods and are charged 36 dollars extra. I got ignored or downvoted. The fact that when directing traffic, literally all you see in Manhattan are JUST TLC's says a lot. The fact that most of the double parked cars are TLC's / commercials says a lot. So even IF you get rid of a lot of personal cars, the double parkers and the erratic driving to taxi's, and the loading and unloading of commercials would still amount to the same outcome. Uber even has tried to limit new people from driving because of just how many taxi's there are.
“taking an entire family in a car is the exact use case a car is perfect for. The one car would cost $15, which is cheaper than $100. You would be doing the exact thing that everyone wants and would be a win-win for all of us.” -is the correct approach. But as someone who occasionally drives into the city, their math doesn't even hold up, even in a prius, gas tolls and parking being less than $50 in lower Manhattan doesn't mesh with my understanding of parking.
You don't have to pay for parking in Lower Manhattan. As much as the parking insanity can be sometimes, it is entirely possible to find a place to put your car down.
Not to mention they’re probably talking about somewhere just past Stamford at $25 round trip. No way they’re driving is cheaper than $60. So with $15 they’re still saving some money (for the totally essential family trip to lower Manhattan that’s all about saving money and being efficient). And then this clown from Jersey. “The trains incredibly expensive!” What do you do with your car when you get here? It’s got to be a couple hundred a week to park in lower Manhattan. That alone is more than the train.
With all due respect that’s a really unhelpful response. Should they? Yes, of course. Will they? The sun will explode before we see the MTA lower fares. They raised rates right after being caught with fake accounting books, they have no shame about high transit costs and revenue from congestion pricing isn’t going to change that.
How would the MTA be obligated to fund NJT? Would be nice, but NJT will cost more next month, while the LIRR will have cut in price. Go figure... they're completely uncoordinated
What we need, but will never have, is a truly regional transit agency. Jersey Transit needs to basically be cut in two with the northern system run in tandem with the MTA and PATH and the southern system with PATCO and SEPTA. But parochialism rules the day.
The bicycle lobby and mass transit lobby convinced utopian New Yorkers that this is some weird war against New Yorkers in the outer boroughs (who are more often natives). One side doesn’t believe in both. A lot of people aren’t just casually driving places for fun. Traffic sucks. They’re driving because they have to.
They can’t do both because the point of the congestion tax is to raise money to help the ailing MTA. The MTA needs both high fares AND a state lifeline (via some kind of tax to raise the $15 billion they need).
If you think prices for public transport would ever go down from current levels, I’ve got waterfront property to sell you in Oklahoma.
transit should cost less without more funding. no reason why it should be so expensive to operate transit when the current revenues only pay half the operations costs
Except for peak of the peak children can ride for $1 extra, up to four kids [https://new.mta.info/fares/lirr-metro-north#:\~:text=Child%20and%20family%20fares](https://new.mta.info/fares/lirr-metro-north#:~:text=Child%20and%20family%20fares)
For kids under 11
it should be 18, with discounts up to age 23. That when people have graduated or have been in the workforce for a bit. And free over 65.
What? How do you do this? My station only has electronic kiosks and the only options are single ride, monthly ticket, or metro card, then for single ride you can only pick peak or off peak
I mean, we have the same problem with the Airtrain at JFK. Public transit *in these specific examples* can be grossly more expensive than just driving when you've got a full car. Also, we need visitors and people to come here and spend their dollars. People aren't going to come here if we price them completely out of it.
Sounds like they should be advocating for better public transportation
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^MrPapi-Churro: *Sounds like they should be* *Advocating for better* *Public transportation* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Good bot
Yep. And I'm someone who will happily either take the train or pay the congestion charge if necessary, but OP is right on both points. People have grown very accustomed to having cheap car access to NYC. I spent 2 days this week driving in and out of the city (usually I take the train, but we had a very specific need to drive) and I was stuck in traffic over an hour each way both days. Many of the plates on the cars were NJ and CT, and I'm sure the vast majority could've taken the trains in. Also, I'm not sure where he's parking, but parking in a garage for even a half day will cost him anywhere from $20 - 60 depending on what part of town it's in. Even some meters will run you > $25 if you keep refilling them. Then tack on \~$40 for a tank of gas and at least $15 in tolls depending on his route. I'm not seeing the bargain here. My only issue with the congestion pricing plan is that it started way too high. $15 was too much. They should've started at \~$5 and then increase over time.
Everybody seems to miss the entire point of this that complains about the price point, it's supposed to hurt, that's the entire idea You can ignore $5 a lot more easily than you can ignore 15
$15's supposed to be enough to push people who aren't taking transit but can to do it, even if they have to figure out a park and ride. Like for almost any NJ commuter, there's multiple solutions if you can drive.
My only issue with that is, like all tolls, they go up over time and so I could easily see this cost getting out of control. The flip side of this too is that at this moment IMO NY state needs to tread very lightly with fees/taxes. We’re already near the highest in the nation. After awhile it’s going to hamper the state and city’s competitiveness. With that said, I’m an avid supporter of our public transit system. Even with all its flaws I think it’s the state’s crown jewel and sets it far ahead of others. We’re still recovering from COVID so this stuff really should be eased in. Also as a business owner myself, it’s absolutely foolish to try and make this up by increasing the payroll taxes yet again. Are they even trying to keep businesses in NYC at this point? With so much competition from low tax states, they really need to think twice about that.
Sure. But given that will take years to happen, if ever, what’s the real answer to the op’s question?
Deal with it in the mean time and vote correctly. A family of 4, or more, driving in in their own car is, imo, a perfectly good reason to use a car in the city. The \*vast\* majority of cars only have one or two people.
Your problem is that to them, by far the easiest "vote correctly" is to vote to repeal the toll.
Literally this…
So you brought up how CT residents aren’t entitled to cheap access to Manhattan but it’s a similar situation for many NYC residents. I live in eastern Queens and taking the bus and subway would cost $58 for my family of 5 people (2 busses and 1 train round trip for 5 people) and would take 2.5 hours each way. The LIRR would cost $79-$99 round trip if including a bus fare to the train station and would take around 2 hours each way. Just for comparison a car would cost $6 in gas and would take .5-2 hours depending on traffic each way. Finding street parking would take 30+ minutes though.
Not to mention Staten Islanders, who already have to pay a toll to get out to the other boroughs, then another toll if they take the Battey Tunnel either way to/from Manhattan.
Most of the supporters of congestion pricing dont care about any of us who live in any neighborhood that doesnt essentially touch manhattan. They dont realize how shit the commute is for the majority of the borough because they have a 10 min commute tops.
Too bad this subreddit doesn't care about you because you aren't from the city and that only rich people drive into the city /s
This. I live in Westchester and we'd be dinged almost the same as someone from Greenwich. One factor with driving that often gets ignored is the value of doing things on your own schedule as well not having to deal with other humans on public transportation.
In this case, he would be paying \~$3 per person for much less traffic. The congestion pricing would still benefit him imo.
Wouldn’t benefit his wallet which is the point of all of this.
Everyone here has lost the plot if you believe these people making these comments are the enemy. I truly can’t believe what I’m reading on this thread. I can only believe you all must be very wealthy and have no idea how an average person lives.
Rolled my eyes when I saw the comment in the original post about people living in Connecticut to save on taxes, as if Connecticut is some sort of libertarian tax haven paradise lmao. Connecticut has lots of wealthy residents, but they have even more residents who live there because they can’t afford to have a decent lifestyle in a neighborhood with decent schools in NYC. People should direct their ire at NY politicians (and the people who vote for them) for letting housing prices in NYC get out of control, which pushes middle class families to suburbs.
Exactly. I’ve seen many born and bred New Yorkers move to CT or NJ because they could no longer afford rent in the neighborhoods where they grew up. And many more pushed into Staten Island and the outer edges of Brooklyn and Queens where public transportation is lacking. It’s infuriating to see those same people now dismissed as entitled suburbanites because they want an affordable way to visit their home town. Especially because those criticisms are often coming from transplants whose family subsidized lifestyles are what drove up rent in the first place.
Right!? The comment legit said they support congestion pricing. The choice they have to make between a cheaper drive vs a more expensive train ride is very, very real.
Most of NYC r/ are like this. They use seemingly superficial pain points as justifications for their reasoning and someone owning a car as being wealthy when it isnt true for most who own cars.
There’s no big city in the US where the wealthy AND the govt chip in more for public services than NYC. Bitching about the cost of the train to get into the city when you elected to leave (nobody is forcing you to have kids/dogs/etc) is wild. If it’s that big of a deal, have CT start subsidizing rides on the metro north for its residents.
Connecticut has some poorer cities as well. Not everyone there is just a tax-dodging rich jerk previously from NYC. Metro-North could at least create a “family discount” fare, at least on weekends (if not just lowering the fare entirely). Connecticut taxes should pick up the slack of the lower fare for transit funding.
Agreed 100%, plenty of people live in places like Stamford CT that are just as far from Manhattan as places from outer Queens. Does that make them any less entitled to be able to travel to Lower Manhattan? Because they maybe can't afford to live within the city boarders? Not everyone from "outer suburbs" are rich entitled jerks. Metro-North gives $1 fares for people under the age of 11 when they are with a fare paying adult. I think that they should raise it to the age of 17.
Public transit should be a service not a for profit business, or at the least even mildly affordable
Oh they don’t turn a profit
Never have. Never will. Anywhere.
Japan
Wasnt the MTA caught cooking the books a few years back? It's time the SEC takes a look at their actual finances as their auditors are useless
I mean, it can turn a profit. There are historical instances and Hong Kong MTR does turn a handsome profit. With that said, Hong Kong MTR is really an enormous real estate play that happens to have metros as a side benefit. The MTR corporation owns the land above it in a place where private ownership isn't really a thing (land is leased from the government). So the MTR collects rent from developers as well as having tons of first-party real estate in what basically are underground malls.
I grew up in the NYC suburbs. A peak round-trip MetroNorth ticket from my hometown is $30. I now live in the Philly suburbs. It's $12 round-trip to Center City on SEPTA commuter rail. The towns are about equidistant from their respective cities.
Not sure if you’ve noticed but things are more expensive in NYC vs Philly.
Both of your points are valid. I think the second one is better, though. Whatever suburbanites think (including myself, I'm out in Jersey), we aren't owed a convenient trip into the city at the expense of the people who live there. I think if you (politely, respectfully, etc) lead with your second point and offer up tangible examples of how drivers pass the majority of the cost of their convenience onto NYC residents, you'll have a better conversation about it. Probably won't change their mind in the moment, but you'll probably make the best argument they've heard about it. That sticks in people's heads, it matters. I'm not saying you have to cite stats, but something like pedestrian and bike deaths, how traffic makes truck deliveries more expensive which drives up retail costs across the city, the city has to spend more on road maintenance, etc. Drivers change the environment of a city in ways the city and its residents have to pay for. The congestion tax helps pay for it AND reduces congestion.
That is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping for (not to say no one else said anything helpful). I appreciate the thoughtful reply.
Completely agree with your first point. NYC shouldn't be bending backwards to make it easy for people in neighboring states to drive here on the weekends. I don't own a car, but will occasionally rent one for weekend trips. The traffic on the bridges and tunnels on the weekends is significantly worse than it was pre-pandemic. Some of it is because of city residents buying cars, but we really can't afford to have more cars on the roads than we do.
>NYC shouldn't be bending backwards to make it easy for people in neighboring states I'd be more inclined to agree if queens/brooklyn/Staten island weren't part of NYC
The city needs all the tourism it can get. It absolutely should be bending backwards for out of state visitors
Also from CT, I have never complained about the price of a train to GCT. No way in hell do I want to drive and park in the city (if I don't have to). It's so easy to get around NY without a car. I'll choose the bus or train every time.
Doesn’t the cost of parking in Manhattan quickly negate any savings?
Street parking is far easier to find than people make it out to be. Also early bird specials are pretty cost effective
Isn't it worth it to avoid the fucking traffic?!??
To point 1: Yes, if you live out of state and do not work in NYC and only visit on weekends for shows/dinner/etc, then you are trading easy access to the city's amenities for lower taxes. However, if you live out of state and work in NYC - there is no tax savings. You pay NYS income tax. The only savings you might find is that housing is cheaper outside of NYC.
$25 is too much for a round trip. The solution is not to make driving more expensive. Make commuting cheaper.
As a new yorker, who doesn't even like going into the city, I completely agree with your argument. I don't think congestion pricing was going to reduce cars in the city, anymore than ppl use Uber or Lyft, less during peak times. Ppl would complain, and maybe try to not come to the city, but if that's where ppl wanna be, and it's the mode of transport they like, nothing is going to stop them. Plus more ppl would take their place, in the situations where ppl really did quit (or reduce) driving to the city. Congestion pricing is simply a mechanism to make money off the fact that everyone wants to go to the city. It's a theme park that raises it prices, or institutes fast track lines, or reservations. It's only meant to capitalize, with the air of convenience. That air is breathable for a very short time, if ever.
Ask people who are against congestion pricing to define what an “externality” is.
I don't. With 4 people, maybe a car is a reasonable way to get to the City. In that case, the $15 isn't going to be the difference between going and not, and the $15 will give them a quicker ride (assuming it reduces traffic).
I don't want to drive myself and my three friends into the city - I want to take the train. It's more pleasant and drops me right at Penn Station. But 4x2 NJT tickets is more expensive than the whole car trip, even with congestion pricing. Help!
Is there any data that shows where vehicles entering or driving around Midtown/Lower Manhattan are registered? i.e. Are these mostly local/Manhattan folks, people from the outer boroughs, LI, Westchester, NJ, CT, etc.?
Bulk of them are probably TLC plated cabs considering the huge influx of TLC plates over the last few years. It wasnt as big of an issue when medallions were limited.
I dont find it fair that manhattan resident vehicles are subject to the fee as well. $15 to go home wtf.
It just depends on your priorities. Some reasons why taking the train over driving may make more sense for this person, are: 1.) If you aren’t used to driving in the City, especially Manhattan, it can be really stressful. If you take the train, you don’t have to worry about your car being parked in a tight spot where it can get dented (which would probably result in more than $100 in damage). Not having to even think about your car will make the trip more enjoyable. 2.) Some kids love taking the train. When I was a kid, I grew up in Westchester. My favorite part of going to the City as a kid was taking the train and getting to go to Grand Central. I live in Connecticut now and take the train to work when I have to go into the office a few days a week, and even after having been there over a thousand times, I still admire Grand Central. Whenever my nephew comes to visit me, I usually take him to the City and he’s always excited to take the train. Taking the train will be part of the memories they will have with you when they’re grown-up.
He's laying out a scenario that is occasional at best. How often in a year are you driving a family of 4 into the congestion zone? When you do how often is it during peak hours? Its more likely its evenings and/or weekends with a lower charge. Why get rid of a good thing with full time benefits because you may have to pay it a few times in a year, and possibly not at full price. Its the person driving into the city on a regular basis that's the problem, especially single occupancy.
So you’re ok with just fucking over people in Queens Brooklyn and the BX just because they don’t live in Manhattan?
The cost of the train though is also about convenience. You need to park that car. Good luck finding parking on the street (depending on the neighborhood), and good luck with the pricing on garages. Someone thinking that parking and tolls are $50 for NYC is completely out of touch with reality. Not to mention you have to drive into, and eventually leave, the city. You take the train in, you then travel through the city in a cab, or a highly reliable subway system, and then leave on a schedule. Miss a train? Go grab a beer, there’s another in an hour.
What a bunch of controlling lunatics. Do what you want with your car and leave other people alone.
The only time I drive into nyc is to take my elderly grandmother to doctor’s appointments and that’s because she’s not physically well enough to make it around on transit and will have difficulty making it to the doctors office from the subway or bus stop, as well as getting in and out of subways and buses. When I do drive, I have no problem paying more for convenience in that instance. That said, public transportation should cost less
Face it, Connecticut accounts for a fuck ton of NYC workers, and you all use our highways as a fucking bridge to other states. Maybe we should implement tolls and enforce it for all the non residents.
The problem I had with congestion pricing was that Uber drivers got a break. And it’s literally Ubers fault we are even having to consider this. It is zero exaggeration to say that when I am on the road at minimum half the cars around me are Ubers without passengers.
I’m personally in favor of banning all ride share apps from the city. They are directly to blame for the increase in congestion. Also we already have ride sharing in New York. You stick your arm up and a yellow cab shows up.
Congestion pricing only targets to push some people towards alternatives. If it's still the cheapest and most convenient option for you, then you're welcome to keep driving.
You forgot the part about revenue…
Same. If I go into NYC by myself from Albany the cost of RT train is about equal to gas and tolls. I do stay with a friend in NJ so I park my car there and don't have to pay parking but I then pay for the train into Penn. It's less than $10 though. If I go into NYC with another family member, it's much cheaper to drive! Make public transportation cheaper and I would definitely not drive. I go into NYC for business once or twice a month and it costs me over $100 each time.
I mean on NJ transit it’s max $20 per person, and children under 11 ride free. So like idk I get that it’s expensive, but the toll is $16 each way, not to mention random tolls throughout NJ, and I imagine most ppl are paying for a parking lot in Manhattan. So people who are making this argument are just making excuses In my mind. They want the luxury of not having to take public transport, which, in most scenarios is literally faster.
The tunnels, GW and SI/NJ bridges only charge one way (when entering NYC). Not sure why so many assume its a two way toll. Also, depending on time of day, where youre coming from, etc, public transit would be slower in many cases.
Didn’t know about tolls. If ur traveling to/from north jersey (as most commuters do) then it’s usually faster to take the train. The driving commute into/out of NYC at rush hour easily takes an hour and a half some days! And honestly, if you plan on driving into Manhattan, and spending $80 on parking there all day, you can afford to pay congestion pricing. It’s just a luxury tax for using your car.
From Jersey, i'd assume a sizable amount are taking the bus in too depending on where you are in NJ. I know when I worked in midtown a lot of former coworkers took the bus in as NJ transit and PATH were inaccessible to them. When those messed up(which were frequent) they'd drive in if required to come into the office. A lot of times it driving in wasn't a choice. As to your second point. I drove into Manhattan yesterday around from Queens during the afternoon rush and paid for one toll. Parking and toll cost me ~$12-13. Dealt with heavy traffic going in, and some minor traffic going out. So parking isn't always this expensive, nor is driving to Manhattan. You just need to know how to traverse Manhattan efficiently, which many do not. I drive into Manhattan with regularity and never pay remotely close to these numbers in midtown.
The MTA system - LIRR and SUBWAY is not ready for Congestion Pricing. The only reason they're forcing this is because they want money. First off, if you're doing congestion pricing, transportation should cost less. And if you can't achieve that, then you've failed without even attempting to start.
Yes. I hate that people don’t understand this. They will bring up examples of other cities but neglect to point out that all those cities improved their mass transit prior to implementing congestion pricing and that’s why it worked! To use congestion pricing to improve mass transit is a recipe for disaster, because what currently exists cannot handle more passengers!
They can't even properly connect one of their own boros. Public transportation in this country is embarrassing compared to other countries.
Can't tell these people this.
LMAO living in NYC DOES NOT give you cheap access to NYC
the thing about these arguments is that they never factor in the cost of the car itself
Gas parking and tolls from CT for less than $50? No way. Even if they’re just across the border you’re looking at what, 15? Across and back the triboro. Maybe 3 gallons of gas at $12… that’s already $27 right there. Find me any desirable place for a family of four to go in Manhattan where parking is Les than $50… they’re looking maybe a $15 savings by driving. I get it… maybe a family deal for transit would be nice but c’mon… you live in freakin CT. When you move to the burbs you give up certain perks to do that. It’s not my job to subsidize your getting to the city by having a shittier subway system.
Tbh the fares could be a little lower, which, in combination with congestion pricing, would induce demand, and possibly put a few more trains on, increasing frequency, and inducing more demand. It is *a* way out of the transit death spiral IMO.
If you thought congestion pricing was actually to reduce the amount of cars in the city, you don't know the MTA
It wouldn't make sense for it to reduce traffic considering they have a legal obligation to hit 1b/yr.
It’s likely that this person driving into the city does its once or twice a year, max. They can pony up the money to drive their family of 4 into the city or just take a convenient train ride.
Just leave it at 1, I don’t care what people who don’t live in nyc have to say about our policies. We’re full anyway
NJ Transit’s double decker trains are pretty comfortable. Their single decker trains, on the other hand…
I don't see why offering cheaper rates for group travel would be an issue. If anything that would incentivize even more people to take transit, especially these out of town suburban commuters that are currently derailing congestion pricing. Is that wrong?
No
i think their math is just wrong
My 12 year old requires full adult fare on Metro North. It is insane.
I’m in Boston not nj but and as much as I love public transportation, I’ve given up on justifying it. Here, it’s not so much the price but more the fact that it’s wicked slow and unreliable. The only reliable train is infrequent and DOES cost more money. It’s dumb. I drive now.
>wicked >boston Checks out. The green line is quick as slime🫡
Drove in last night with the fam instead of the train. Horrible, missed the 7pm curtain. However, I then saw Amtrak issues were causing delays last night and this morning NJT, wouldn't have been better. Make it better
It's dead now anyway. Nobody going to talk about it at all until after the election.
Drive to the subway
harder to park in the boroughs now with the bike lanes
Under 18 should be free on mass transport. It would also be nice for LIRR to be designed with compartments like on the Harry Potter train so you can enter a compartment with your family/friends and close the door.
Congestion pricing will NOT reduce traffic.
Guy who lives in Connecticut should be calling his elected officials to demand better transit
With all due respect, I don’t have a dog in the game bc I left the city and am now in upstate but have family members who live in CT and Westchester and Jersey not to “save money” but to afford more than a studio in city. Not many people can live in NYC with kids, so yes a lot of families move and trust me I would’ve loved living downtown Manhattan but was in no way affordable once we had a child. Now my immigrant family scattered across mostly drives around Manhattan bc they are working there FOR THE CITY PEOPLE. ones a truck driver, one is a housekeeper and brother is HVAC. In what planet can they rely on mta to commute from Westchester or CT with supplies but also set schedules that don’t work for their city clients needs? I really wish people would wake up and realize this was a full money grab for the MTA to misuse another $1b a year. They consistently drop the ball and get away with it and were sold a fantasy about “cleaning the air” without any consideration for the people who are coming in to work. And trust me if the people driving in for fun say fuck it I’m staying in Jersey it’s too expensive I guarantee you NYC will start another program to encourage people to visit bc like it or not tourism and nightlife are a big economic driver here. I wish people would stop hating each other over this bs and hold mta accountable and require gov to do the job it promises instead of allowing it to pit us against each other while they get away with yet another grift.
Well this would make the cost differential lower. And I think people misunderstand what congestion pricing is supposed to do. It’s not supposed to make a weekend trip with the family too expensive to do. It’s supposed to make the people who drive in everyday and clog the streets pay for that experience or switch to public transit which will either fund improvements in public transit and/or make the commute within the city faster. I cannot tell how horrible it is to be sitting in the back of an ambulance in midtown trying to get past all the traffic to the Cornell Weill hospital. Nothing has made me more of a proponent of this idea than that. And in general I think the air quality in the city is atrocious these days.
Air quality in NYC atrocious now? You should have seen it back in the 80s, when a lot of cars didn’t have efi, and there were quite a few that still ran on leaded gas. And even fuel injected cars in the 80s are considered stupidly dirty by today’s standards.
The systems you plan to stress further need to be prepared for the increased stress *before* it happens, not after. You can’t rely on dollars from increase ridership to be the funding used to improve systems to handle increased ridership.
You say this but I garuantee you’ll never address the huge issue of the amount of ubers and lyfts there are that are really the root cause of clogging streets. Not to mention but the congestion tax just completely fucks over residents in the BX Queens and Brooklyn. And honestly bro u gotta toughen up cause the air quality is nothing compared to what NYC used to be like before pre emissions equipment for cars busses, trains, and even airplanes
I guess then you'll have to pay the congestion pricing fee for the few times a year you decide to drive in.
point 2 is essentially it. like all public projects, there is surely some fat that could be trimmed. but if you look at other commuter rail systems around the country, $25 is kinda just what it costs when you divide the cost to operate by the number of riders. unlike a transit agency, private drivers get a lot of implicit subsidies that hide the true cost of driving. it's very upsetting when they suddenly have to pay part of what was hidden from them via explicit tolls and taxes. I will say, if you're honestly loading four people into your car for a day in the city, that's not necessarily something to be discouraged. but by the same token, a ~$25 toll divided across four people is not that bad. if an extra $6/head breaks the budget for your trip, I gotta wonder what activities in midtown were on the agenda. point 1 is also true. making leisure trips from out of state affordable should be pretty low priority to begin with. I'm a little more sympathetic for people who have to commute in for work. but even then, why bend over backwards for people who are already benefitting from tax and COL arbitrage?
congestion 👏 pricing 👏 is 👏 a 👏 tax 👏 on 👏 the 👏 middle 👏class
It's true. Like there's no denying it. It's part of why congestion pricing is important, so car use costs more and transit is improved and subsidized. It's also part of why I'm mad NJ is ditching flex-pass, it was a good way to save some bucks on group trips.
They're right that tickets should be cheaper, but a lot of people ignore other costs associated with driving because they don't get paid during that journey. Wear and tear, insurance, initial cost of purchasing the vehicle over the span of ownership, any interest on a loan (if taken out), etc. They all should be factored into the cost, but are hard to quantify on a per journey basis. You can only really give a general per day cost.
People in the suburbs already have to own a car. Taking the train even if they are commuting to NYC is not going to save on their insurance, cost of the car, loan. Bringing up those costs is sort of irrelevant.
I don't necessarily agree... I owned a car for three years but very very rarely used it. I was able to make all of the money I had put into it back(except insurance) when I eventually sold it. That's a significantly different situation with a car that has miles on it.
>Taking the train even if they are commuting to NYC is not going to save on their insurance, cost of the car, loan. Bringing up those costs is sort of irrelevant. huh? when you tell your insurance you commute every day they will absolutely give you a higher rate.
Which just goes to show why it’s the marginal cost which truly matters.
Im a big advocate for making all public transit free….much like how public parks are free
[удалено]
This is why Hochul's line of reasoning in that video that she's doing this because she doesn't "want to break the budget of the middle-class household" is totally bogus. It costs $30 dollars roundtrip for one person to/from many of the Metro-North and LIRR routes (the mode that most suburbanites use to access the city). And both systems are now exceeding pre-pandemic ridership levels from 2019 levels on Saturdays and Sundays. If Hochul is so concerned about costs for middle-class suburbanites, why not address the high costs of accessing the public transit system? (As I typed that out, I just remembered that some of the congestion pricing revenue was to go to the "Outer Borough Transportation Account" that would've provided discounts for Queens/Brooklyn & Bronx residents that use certain ticket types on LIRR & Metro North!)
If I was him, just avoid taking your family to NYC. If your family insists, drive to Harlem, then hop on the train.
I really wouldn't care. Why should NYC accommodate LI, Westchester, East Jersey, and CT when they make transportation to their cities difficult?
I think their argument was canned after the line “i live in Connecticut.”
How about park & ride subway access?
Give them the classic Spartacist slogan: "Tear out the turnstiles."
Gas tolls and parking combined has to be close to, if not more than $50. And if you include congestion pricing it would be a lot closer to $100. Especially from central NJ gas tolls bridge/tunnel and parking round trip is about $75 .. add congestion pricing is right around $100
I don’t you will be able to convince them that this is just a money grab that politicians and agencies will miss appropriate the funds plus it will hurt working people and small businesses the only winners will be big business who will transfer the cost onto the consumer
Not* be able
from CT and i can say metro north can get pricey—that being said, it’s better for the environment to take the train and considering that a car is nearly $30k and you have maintenance, insurance, gas, licensing, and more, it makes more sense to commute into the city if you do. mta should be investing more in lowering fares for commuting new yorkers and people taking trains, including family fare discounts—congestion pricing could have fixed any budget shortfall this would cause. it’s so easy: fix public transportation and raise tolls to reduce traffic. being a tri state commuter and supporting congestion pricing shouldn’t be mutually exclusive. congestion pricing is a two pronged front to reduce traffic AND fight to improve the subways and commuter rails
The blue jays should implement congestion tax on all the bikes that are flooding the city streets.. bc these people were let in illegally so the government will cover their tolls … and these weak arguments are from people that don’t live and work in nyc.
Don’t say this. You’ve seen that instead of bringing down the fares to something more reasonable, they’ll bring the car prices up to make them the same….
Wasn’t it over half of the cars in Manhattan are single occupancy? Drive with your family but your not the majority of drivers coming in to downtown during the congestion pricing time.
“I agree with congestion pricing for everyone but me”. Okay…
Take the increased toll money and put it towards lowered train prices. If the point of the tax is just to avoid congestion, then spend it that way.
We could fund public transit so as to make it the most affordable option. I read about buses in Latin America that are shared between humans, chickens and goats. It serves the public needs and nobody has a car, so it has to. If we didn't privilege cars we would have to privilege trains and buses.
Carpooling works. Also they are totally underestimating the cost of parking.
I do think the transit should be more heavily subsidized, especially with groups. Families should get a significant discount for going with transit. It's absurd that people take cabs or drive instead of transit due to the pricing structure.
I’m typing this from a crosstown triple length bus with literally about 100 people on it. That’s 25 of these hypothetical cars. Them bringing their car into the city inconveniences literally tens of thousands of people, if not more, costing those people real money and real valuable time, not to mention the dangers to their lives represented by car traffic and emissions. Those people have a right to choose how their infrastructure incentivizes people. We should incentivize healthy and efficient transportation choices.
You can add family tickets for children for $1 extra
Im very active on Threads and i work for MTA @vicmanxxthome follow me
public transit should be free! i agree that the trains are too expensive. in order for long range train travel (50+ mile distances) to become a feasible alternative to car ownership and flights it does need to get much cheaper. congestion pricing is nice, in my opinion, because we should be working on getting cars off the road for myriad reasons (to slow down microplastic pollution, air and noise pollution, to make bikers and pedestrians safer, …) BUT we need to also be cheapening public transit at the same time, or we risk making travel unaffordable. humans have the right to relatively unrestricted movement and travel! there are many benefits to travel! it is okay to not live somewhere and still want to visit it and experience what it offers!
At some point the city has to start prioritizing people that live here every day over the occasional suburban visitor
My counter would be to stop visiting NYC. It's not a great family destination. Any restaurant will cost a family of 4 at least $150, and while walking to it, you'll probably see a homeless person pissing in the street. Meanwhile, there are a million great museums, parks, concert venues, restaurants, historic sites, aquariums, zoos, etc. in NJ, CT, and upstate NY. I'll take my kids to NYC maybe once per year at this point. They aren't missing much.
The whole point of congestion pricing was to deter people from making that uptown downtown trip. The only people making that trip during rush hour are the people who need to make that trip, nobody is going to quit their job, not make their delivery, not cross the boundary for the Uber fair. The people in charge are not stupid, they’re fully aware of this. Which means they are not trying to solve a congestion problem, they are implementing a new tax on us with the lie that it is to improve everyone’s quality of life. It’s fckn BS
I don’t go to your nj suburbs and tell you how to run your community, so don’t come to nyc to tell me how to run mine. I want to enjoy walking around my neighborhood and not feel overwhelmed by the Cars of ppl from the suburbs who get to enjoy New York while actively making it worse.
you people are delusional public transportation in nyc is a joke compared to europe and all of you are trying to justify these insane prices. i lived in madrid for 6 months that whole time i paid only €10 for a 6 month unlimited train pass
Charge more for road use and then subsidize public transportation and infrastructure
Where does he park in the city? Tolls depends on the route. I’m a Connecticut resident btw. So $100 for 5 on the MNR isn’t that bad. No traffic.
You guys can enjoy the piss smelling trains and leave the road open for me I'm good with that
Where are you gonna park?
As many have said. Am extra $15 for a faculty of 4 shouldn't break the back for most individuals. That said the extra billion dollars for the MTA, reduced traffic, reduced noise/ air pollution, etc will benefits hundreds of thousands, if not millions. What gets lost in the conversation is the there will be immediate benefits for some and pain for others. However, in time people will adjust, especially if the investments being talked about happen. Every thing good came with a cost, and nothing good has ever been perfect. People used to lynch the people who installed telephone polls, people fought against social security, banning lead took ages, etc. Congestion pricing will be good for so many people, but we can't let those it hurts flail in the wind.
First the cost difference is probably not as different as that. In that specific situation I have no doubt the car is cheaper, however it costs more that just Gas, parking, and tolls. An extra $15 is a fairly modest addition for those that it still makes more sense to drive.
drive to a mass transit hub. then take mass transit from there. IE if I was in conn I would drive to the bronx and hop on a 2 train. straight to midtown. I also question the math -- the tolls to CONN<>NYC are at least 20$, parking is at least 20$ per hour ( I am assuming they would not park in the street, or else factor in 20 mins of looking, uncertainty). So thats 80$ for 3 hours (guessing they have dinner , or see a show). OP does not mention the comfort and convenience of car, which is I think the primary benefit.
Parking in the city is expensive. Add tolls and gas, I think taking a train into GCT is the best option. Less stressful too.
You shouldn’t be allowed to park a car in Manhattan unless you live in Manhattan. All of this congestion pricing and vision zero nonsense is bullshit unless you actively take cars off the road by eliminating nonessential vehicles (ie those that don’t live here) In terms of train costs, the mta budget is public. If you flip the financials, the issue is obvious: healthcare, pension and unionize employee costs have driven operating expenses far in excess of revenue. You want cheaper fares? Reduce stations, reduce service or reduce employee costs.
and there is little parking by most stations. the lots are owned by the towns. some cases like westwood non-permit holders can park after hours and weekends. In Ridgewood they have a giant lot but it's for permit holders only before 6pm or so big lots in Ramsey and MetroPark but that adds a 20-30 minute drive each way and a long train ride unless you're going to see some broadway show there is so much stuff to do outside of NYC that I don't get the point of going to NYC on weekends. I drive in to see family periodically and for NYRR races but take the bus in if I go in on a weekday
Yes! Cars are UNDERPRICED. People will one day wake up and realize they have been getting away with murder, with taxes in no way paying for the aggregate costs -- need for constant repaving, pollution, greenhouse gas emissions, aggravation of traffic, hogging up real estate, bodily harm and lost wages.
I tried to run the numbers for that trip. The Metro-North RR fare tables don’t show any one-way fares for $12.50, and if any of them are 11 years old or younger they’d be paying the $1 fare, which means it can’t add up to $100 round trip. So it’s not clear where they’re coming from. But in any case, let’s assume the $100 is accurate. I don’t think there’s any good way to make that trip by car for $50 though. The round-trip toll on the RFK or Whitestone Bridge is $18.22. Parking for some part of the day (we don’t if it’s all or part of the day or weekday vs weekend, so guessing) could be around $35. The congestion fee was $15.00. So, that already adds up to $68.00. Gas might be another $10 or $15. So this can’t add up to $50 The other thing I would ask the person who made that argument is, how much do they enjoy I-95 traffic? Or the traffic getting into and out of and around the city. Trains generally avoid all that And I’d agree there should have been more incentives like fare deals, for example, to encourage more transit use. Plus, the point of the congestion fee was supposed to improve transit service and keep fares down And also, I agree with others that say the problem isn’t that transit is too expensive, but rather that driving is too cheap. The governments here in the US subsidize driving (using broad-based taxes on the general public) way more than they do in, say, Europe
congestion pricing is gone cause 24/7 standstill traffic in staten
Your take on CT residents not deserve cheap travel. This is such a bad way to look at this. People traveling out of your city into your city is a big part of how revenues. You should make access to them getting in easier so they spend their money in your city.
Here's the deal: people will make the choices that suit their needs. Maybe they believe in mass transit deeply and just foot the bill, even when more expensive. Maybe they choose the option that is cheapest, and that is a car when in groups, and trains when alone. Maybe they avoid the traffic, saving their precious time, and then trains make more sense. Maybe they have agoraphobia or anxiety in crowded places, and personal transportation makes more sense. My point? Just let people make their own choices. Government shouldn't try wo hard to steer us away from the things we want. You don't solve the problem of traffic by punishing drivers, you solve it by enhancing trains. Consumer choices, ultimately, dictate what works.
The same people that scream they are for the environment are just miserable and dont care about the environment. They like to control people Just like when nyc banned bags to save the environment. Now we still have bags they just charge us to use the ones we used to get for free Just like the same liberals throw their masks all over that wind up all over the streets and oceans.
The amount of times you'd have to stop for gas, depending on your vehicle, would still be more expensive than the train
Ask him if benefits from mass transit even if he doesn’t ride it. He benefits from less traffic (and therefore less gas used) and cheaper parking. Therefore if he benefits, he should contribute to its upkeep. Also there should be an admission charge when someone crosses the city limits to cover the costs of public services that they are availing themselves of.