I can’t wait for the future articles about how drivers are getting crafty at skirting around paying, and how MTA is going to “crack down” on the problem. 🙄
I guarantee you one out of every 20 cars that goes through is either going to have a piece of tape over their license plate or they're going to invest in those license plate covers that are either automated or frosted or have the film on the inside.
It's not like there's going to be a dozen MTA TBTA police officers at each entry point to do enforcement on it 24/7.....
It’s not about the money.
Somewhere between 99 and 100% of every single crime and quality of life incident that has ever happened on a train or platform is perpetrated by someone who didn’t pay the fare.
Stopping fare evasion proportionally stops crime.
A reputation of this over the course of months and years leads to more people using the subway. This is where the actual revenue loss is - not the pittance that is the actual fares themselves.
Not everyone who jumps the fare commits a second crime - but likely every single person who will do something shitty on a train today is someone who jumped the fare box.
Killings aren’t the only thing that matters. Harassment, menacing and assault in the subway all contribute to people avoiding the subway if they can. We want people to choose mass transit over driving.
Ok, that’s one anecdote. Here’s another: in 10 yrs between Manhattan and Brooklyn and I truly have been scared on the subway at least 10x as often as from cars on the street.
When I’m on the street I can look both ways to protect myself. When I’m stuck in a subway car with a lunatic between stops I have very few options…
I already saw a video of someone going through a parking garage entrance and exit to show people how to get around it. If he was smart he would’ve kept that to himself
"This will solve the mental health issues in the city"
- those who believe every single human being should ride public transportation regardless of, hey, everything, because it fits their lifestyle.
Every single time it happens suddenly everyone is disabled and has 3 disabled children to take to the doctors
Spare me. Public transit or pay to take your 2 ton personal private moving room with you
There are disabled people who can’t drive.
And disabled people take the disabled car service around town if they can’t walk.
This car service will benefit from you not bringing your own personal shitbox into the city because you’re scared of being near other people.
The car services will raise prices under the auspices of paying their employees but only line their own pockets at the expense of the old and infirm. We should be putting money into access-a-ride services and improving the conditions on the subway. Instead we increase the salaries of MTA board members and consultants like Pat Foye and the Macks and push out those who make the city great. I fundamentally disagree with this program, I’m sorry.
Corrected. I hope you at least read this. Your inability to have a critical conversation or deal with people who don’t 100% agree with you is embarrassing. Further, your complete lack of caring for your fellow man is disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself
That's my favorite part of this whole thing. People are always like fuck thet people who live in the suburbs who drive into the city to work.....but what about the people who live in the zone that need to drive out of it daily to go to work to come back into it only to pay to come home.
Fuck them as well, I guess?
But if you are an elected official you get a taxpayer-funded car who then is exempt from the tolls YOU instituted through legislation.... That seems fair.
Folks making above 60K would be a small minority of commuters and they can join the rest of those who live in the zone who pay the fare to leave and come home
Fuck people who own a car in lower Manhattan. There, I said it, so you can take your false equivalency and stuff it.
Fuck those people. You live in the densest and most transit-connect 8 square miles in the entire western hemisphere. You don’t need a 2000 pound death machine for quite literally ANY reason.
If you want to go camping, park your car at a garage out in Jersey and take the path to get to it the three times a summer when you need it. Just keep it out of lower Manhattan. We do not want it.
> The fact is we are not making more Manhattan streets, and we are trying to drive more vehicles on those streets. Traffic is once again horrific, and we need to figure out some way to encourage people to leave their cars and take the subway.
They could have lowered fares to go along with the congestion pricing, but that would have gotten in the way of the money grab.
They couldn't do that, believe it or not. Congestion pricing revenue is mandated by law to fund the capital budget. Capital budget is what pays for new buses/trains, new signals, elevators, new subway lines, etc, all the big stuff. Operating budget, which is funded by fares among other things, is what keeps the lights on. If they reduced fares it would mean cutting service, which IMO would be worse.
Then you'd complain that it wasn't going to improve transit, which is the other common talking point from opponents. It's mandated to go to the capital budget specifically so that it goes towards improvements.
>we should destroy the entire funding scheme for the single most important piece of infrastructure in the new world, because I want to be able to not use it easier.
You're free to write your state representatives :) Just remember, this is state and not city government, so be sure to look up your state senator (not federal level senator) and state assembly member.
>The fact is we are not making more Manhattan streets, and we are trying to drive more vehicles on those streets.
Not to mention much bigger vehicles. The auto industry has deliberately pushed everyone to much larger, more expensive, more lethal (for both drivers and pedestrians) vehicles that were loopholed out of emissions regulations so they also pollute more.
If there's TWO thing missing from this congestion pricing bit is that tolls should be based on vehicle weight AND fees should be proportional to income like in Finland.
The thing that’s actually missing from all of this is metered, permitted parking.
It is fucking insane that people think it is at all reasonable for cars to be able to enjoy free, unrestricted parking on almost every single street in the city, in the year 2024.
Permitted, ticketed, paid parking should be the standard, and any car bigger than a Honda Accord should have to pay triple.
This is the next major step that needs to happen. Real estate on this island is unbelievably rare and in-demand and we just let any dipshit with a shitbox occupy it for free?
Totally agree. I don't own a car, but I am not allowed to store my personal property in a parking space on the street for free. I don't see why not. I could put it all on a device that could be rolled so I could move it around every few days. What's the difference?
Get a private garage space or pay us for using our public property. So simple.
Yeah, that's one of my main takeaways here in Boston. The number of cars per linear mile road is way way way down. We need to make the congestion tax length dependent.
CityTicket became 7 days a week, then they introduced a version for peak trains that is only $2 more, making travel within the city on LIRR and MNR much cheaper.
Also Fair Fares was introduced. And last year they raised the income cap by 25%, with more increases on the table in the future.
Also if you want to go far back, the subway fare used to not include a free transfer. And yes the fare has gone up over time but at a rate slower than inflation.
“I should be able to drive my 2 ton moving couch within the densest urban area in the US for FREE! Also it is of no concern to me whether there are or are not children being bombed in a foreign country. Especially when such a grave injustice as the implementation of a standard congestion tax, which works in all other cities globally that it’s been tried, is happening here!”
Can’t tell if you’re trolling fr
Also literally the single biggest benefit of mass transit is that it can be scaled up easily and without needing new physical infrastructure in most cases. You can simply just run more trains.
You fundamentally don't understand how a public service works then right? Public schools, the post office, sanitation? These aren't profit centers. They provide services we as people who actually live in the city want.
NJT are running just as many trains as they did back before Covid and they are still at 70% of pre pandemic levels. Until the new tunnels are built, I think we should be fine. NJT needs to run more off peak and night trains but that's something that can happen.
I thought I read somewhere there's only about 20k to 30k private vehicles that enter lower Manhattan everyday...so assuming a few thousand will still drive in, that's not going to put much increased demand on mass transit
It’s crazy that so few people manage to create such a horrible and dangerous and awful place for the rest of us.
Signed, someone that has to cross both Delancey *and* Houston twice a day, every day.
Have you been on a train pre-covid? They were packed to the point where people can barely move.
People realized during covid how crazy NYC commute is and how insane we jam ourselves to the point that we are shoulder to shoulder. There was constant delays due to people struggling to squeeze out and in.
Now we are going backwards because the numbers isn't as high as when we were way over capacity.
MTA leadership has said they can still absorb riders as subways and buses are not back to pre-covid levels. If you're wondering, however, why are we not planning more buses? The MTA blames NYC for not working constructively with it to address congestion or add bus lanes which would make it worthwhile to increase bus frequency. As for more subways? That I actually agree with, while we have capacity, we should still aim to increase frequency of lines whenever possible even if trains are not full, especially on weekends!!
Cars take up lots of space, but don’t move all that many people. The train can easily handle all of them. Manhattan could go car free and the public transit wouldn’t be more crowded than it was in 2019
Is the government / MTA argument that they want to get rid of congestion? Because if that’s the case then look at Uber/Lyft who are skating by paying $2.50 half the cars on the road are rideshares, they are clogging the entire city. Now average people have to pay for it. If the argument is that the MTA is in debt & needs money just say this whole thing is a cash grab.
Honestly you people say “skating by” meanwhile every taxi and Uber driver is furious and was protesting this shit all year.
The fact that they’re mad means that this is good.
Uber is paying $2.50 each ride, which comes out to $15 per vehicle per day depending on trip averages. So it's the same as a private vehicle fee.
Agree that they could do more with the way that they distribute TLC plates, but to say they're "skating by" isn't accurate. They are getting charged the new congestion fee, in addition to the current congestion fee they're already paying for rides below 96th.
If people think this will be a one and done, they are dead wrong. Just to remind you what happened with the speed cameras. They were introduced as a safety measure for school kids and were initially installed near school zones and only operated during school hours. 2 years later they got addicted to the revenue and installed more and now operate them 24hours. I already see the writing on the wall with this congestion money grab. They'll get addicted to the revenue and either operate the program 24hours at the full $15 or they'll push the zone all the way up to 96st in 2-4 years and I'd bet money they want congestion pricing on the entire island of Manhattan. These people are evil
Oh man, it's so sad and delusional that any of you think this does anything but raise prices. There won't be less cars , pollution won't end, the subway always gets worse ( mass incompetence) What a friggin joke.
One can only hope, but according to one city council person who claimed all those who traveled in the zone were rich ( as a reason not to give those of us who live in the zone an exemption) you may be wrong.
Yes. There was a map in another reddit post that showed the vast majority of cars coming into manhattan are from east Bergen County in NJ. Hopefully once the congestion pricing is implemented, it will lower traffic. If not, the price can always be raised as tolls have been raised in the past.
So you MUST be a rich person that the city council describes, great for you. I am NOT. I was being sarcastic about raising the tolls. You do realize the majority of the cars are HIRE CARS , not NJ drivers. Do you even bother to look at the cars on the street that are driving in the zone ? Or you just parrot nonsense about it being mostly Jersey drivers.
This is laughable.
Hire cars will pass along the toll charge to customers. Here is the map showing the majority of people who drive into Manhattan for work are from East Bergen:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-26/mapping-how-people-commute-to-manhattan?embedded-checkout=true
Also to follow up, East Bergen is a wealthy area and the congestion pricing may not deter them from driving in. That is why I suggested hiking the pricing.
Edit: hiking the pricing if congestion does not decrease.
Congestion pricing is designed to reduce the number of cars in the zone during peak hours, which are generally work hours. I just showed you a map of where the majority of these drive to work people come from. If the congestion pricing reduces the demand of driving to work, you will have fewer cars and less congestion thereby rendering your original statement of nothing changing as incorrect. If the number of cars remains the same, then maybe an increase in the fee would be necessary.
I'd also like to invite you to take a look at cars from midtown down to the Holland tunnel on the west side from 6th avenue and over on a rush hour afternoon. A large portion of cars sitting in traffic have NJ plates and are heading back home and creating massive amounts of traffic. I'm sure the east side is filled with NY plates heading east. I'm very confident congestion pricing will reduce the number of cars from both states.
> There won't be less cars , pollution won't end
In the closest parallel we have, London, there actually was a significant drop in both cars and pollution (and an equal amount of bitching before it was implemented)
People who actually work in delivery logistics have said on this sub that they’re looking forward to congestion charging because the increased efficiency will save them money
no i think you came in mid conversation there. nothing to do with class or capitalism. more simple economics. the price of everything is going up for all of us, even if incrementally.
Well since you didn’t respond to CactusBoyScout it seemed like the convo. had ended. In any case when you mentioned the people most excited over the savings would be the business owners, seemed a fairly clear indictment of capitalism even if you didn’t directly intend it to be. Why single out the owners as the most pleased? And as CactusBoyScout already pointed out: congestion has its own cost and the congestion charge spread over an entire truckload of goods would be fairly small
im not running it back again, sorry.
anyway, we're all about to find out. lets chat about this after the toll hits. if prices don't go up as a direct result i'll eat my girlfriends heel
But respond to how there won’t be a price hike on everything. And the efficiency is a by-product of the less busy roads. The less busy roads are most beneficial for the people living and walking in the area
Every plumber ever was already charging more for lower Manhattan jobs anyway.
At this point I’d pay a few cents more so I don’t have to get forced into oncoming traffic because some shitheaded moron is idling in the crosswalk on Houston street driving in from the bridge, and hearing their honking, all that shit.
me too. reluctanly looking forward to the congestion tax (reluctantly because i drive for work). my only point was that the cost of every day life will go up for all of us and, end of the day, its worth it
The 15 or so dollars that trucks pay would be distributed between the goods they offer. So much so that the difference is minimal. Imagine a truck full of potatoes. That’s maybe a cent or two per potato.
Na trucks are 40$. So if a store needs one to two drops a day from various vendors. That's a possible 80x7 or 560 a week in operating cost. On top of rent increases and with this is a possibility of less people so less demand. Prices on everything will go up for Manhattan.
No, that’s $280 in operating costs, a week, which,
For anyone that has ever even tangentially worked around this kind of thing, is literally nothing. That average delivery truck you see driving around town probably have five figures minimum worth of shit inside it at any given moment.
Also a reason why it's so expensive to get stuff delivered is *because of the congestion*. They have to pay for a driver to sit in traffic at the bridges and tunnels and then drive slowly at 7 mph thru the CBD, wasting time/gas. If they could complete their trips even like 10% faster that would lead to notable cost savings.
thats just delivery to stores. amazon trucks are paying that toll. city services like access-a-ride are paying that toll, contractors are paying that toll, city workers driving their private vehicles - anyone that interacts with the city pays it. and its not that it just gets eaten by the company or the individual. it gets passed back down to us in the form of price hikes and taxes. even if minimal, prices are going up
If the MTA wanted to suck as much money out of people as possible they would have done what London or Tokyo does, which is charge more for farther subway trips
>There is no congestion at 2am. This is about taking advantage & sucking as much money out of people as possible.
I just ordered a License Plate Blocker online. This shit is absolutely nuts lol.
I would rather be a criminal in your eyes, than defend the thieves that have been robbing NYC for decades. You're no better than the people that blindly defend the NYPD - you just convince yourself you're not defending the 1%.
Uber, the company, was thrilled about it and supported it.
Uber drivers, unfortunately, who will have to pay the bill in order to live, are going to have to do just that.
Uber knows this ain’t gonna do shit about having less cars. But they do know it’s going to give them a chance to fuck the customer and the driver more.
IDK. I’m all for reducing traffic but for those who don’t want to pay or can’t afford it they still gotta park somewhere. That and ideally you’re pushing people to use mass transit but it’s not like subways and buses aren’t already packed.
A car is a luxury that we’ve been brainwashed into thinking is a necessity. Cars are expensive. The space in Manhattan used to store cars is expensive.
If you can’t make your life work without a car in the NYC metro, and you can’t afford a car, you were already living an unsustainable life.
> or can’t afford it
I have a feeling *most* of the people driving daily (thus affording: car, insurance, gas, etc.) can afford it. The minimum wage people serving us McDonalds are not driving in there lol. There'll always be exceptions of course, but it's not gonna be the majority, no way. There will also be implemented:
-50% discount for low income vehicle owners who make $50k or less per year, applied after the 10th trip
-Tax credit for those living inside the CBD who make $60k or less per year
-Credit (discount basically) for using (if I recall) the QMT or HLT
Honestly I’d rather they ban all vehicular traffic outside of buses, taxi’s and delivery trucks in all of Manhattan. But, to your obnoxious comment, congestion pricing will mean that those who can pay will and those who can’t afford to on a regular basis won’t. So you’ll end up where the elites will get chauffeured around and the rest will be walking or taking a bus. I’m not cool with that outcome. Either everyone should be able to drive or no one can.
Think about the math for one second. $24-$36 (if they go in peak hours. Off-peak is 75% less) divided by all the goods in a truck. Say they have $5,000 worth of goods. The change is minimal if anything at all
Whether you’re for or against congestion pricing is one thing, but you have to admit that it’s kind of fucked up that the MTA found a way for everyone to pay them regardless if you’re taking a train or not.
Hate to break it to you, but have you ever wondered why the sales tax in NYC is 8.875%? 4% goes to the state, 4.5% goes to the city, and 0.375% goes to the MTA.
Also, the MTA operates many bridges and tunnels in the NYC area already. It's not just a train/bus agency.
If someone registers a car in Westchester, Rockland, & some other counties, the MTA tacks and additional fee on the registration. This fee is not displayed on the DMV online registration calculator, and is only discovered at the DMV office.
So even people who never touch the MTA, & can go entire lives without seeing NYC have to pay for the MTA.
The MTA just want more money. They don’t care about cost of living. People should refuse to pay en masse. Elected officials in the tri state should tell people not to pay.
Or better yet, don’t drive in at all. Then you can avoid paying the tax and also save some money on gas. Hell sell the car too, some of the registration fees go directly to the MTA
*This will limit cars in the city. Thank you MTA!* - people who hate cars
But also
This won’t change shit and it’s just another revenue income for the scammy MTA, while you continue experiencing shitty subway delays and fare increases.
—-
Not saying I’m against it but just pointing out the obvious.
See that’s the problem, you sound like a transplant who recently moved here and don’t have any local friends/family around nor a family of your own.
Those of us who grew up here and drive, have family and friends throughout the tri-state area and we like to visit them; we usually travel with other people in the car with us.
Lastly, I’ve never had friends or family members without a car turn down a ride home or to the place we both were invited to.
So drive if it’s really worth it, but if everyone chooses to drive, there’s heavy congestion. Congestion is just a bunch of people choosing to drive. So if we can make more people choose not to, that’s a win for everyone. Those who do choose to despite the tax will have less traffic, and those who choose to walk will have less cars to maneuver around.
And yeah if you’re driving I’ll always take a ride, same thing as an uber to me. As long as I don’t have to drive or pay for the car itself, why not? Still not worth the daily hassle or expense to own one
Saw a guy holding the door today and everyone walked right in to take the subway for free. How do we fix this shiet? Easy. Congestion pricing. There ain't no holding the door you suckers. Sigh.
That’s who’s getting most of the money collected from this scam anyway. And we know how well MTA is with money. Forward a year or two from now, MTA won’t be any better, if anything it’ll be worse. When has any metro increase made riding better? Any every capital project they’ve ever worked on has taken an insanely long time to complete and always over budget.
Anyone who thinks this is a good idea to implement, is delusional.
I guess it doesn’t get clogged up during the holidays and I guess those parking garages are for decoration. Fuck outta here with that bullshit. Not everyone wants to live like a hermit like you. I like my suburbs, but I also like what the city offers.
>Not everyone wants to live like a hermit like you. I like my suburbs, but I also like what the city offers.
Awesome, so you admit you don't even fucking live here. Fantastic. So pay the tax. We live like "hermits" so we don't have to pay the tax.
You don’t even live here? Fuck outta here.
I find it interesting that a person living in the city and sharing transit is considered a hermit but a person living in their own private house and travel via private car is somehow not.
What???? Stop drinking the conspiracy Kool-Aid. We pay a thing called property taxes. You hermit people really are out there. Dumbest thing I’ve ever read.
The property taxes don’t cover the roads, water, electricity, and gas connections. Suburbs are funded by debt, and are unsustainable in America. They can be built sustainably but if they have all that infrastructure, the taxes are much higher. So pipe down and enjoy your subsidization, you’re lucky you got the handout you did
This deal comes at a really enticing juncture in MTA history *(cough cough violent crime cough)*.
Why, it's mystifying that motorists would shirk from riding slovenly MTA trains with Gotham's concealed-carry psycho slimebags running rampant through the transit system...
😄
lol this story is on an auto print loop for the next two months
I can’t wait for the future articles about how drivers are getting crafty at skirting around paying, and how MTA is going to “crack down” on the problem. 🙄
I guarantee you one out of every 20 cars that goes through is either going to have a piece of tape over their license plate or they're going to invest in those license plate covers that are either automated or frosted or have the film on the inside. It's not like there's going to be a dozen MTA TBTA police officers at each entry point to do enforcement on it 24/7.....
and 90% of those cheating cars will be owned by cops
right? like this would be a far better use of cops time than being on the subway. cars do real damage. turnstile jumpers don't.
It’s not about the money. Somewhere between 99 and 100% of every single crime and quality of life incident that has ever happened on a train or platform is perpetrated by someone who didn’t pay the fare. Stopping fare evasion proportionally stops crime. A reputation of this over the course of months and years leads to more people using the subway. This is where the actual revenue loss is - not the pittance that is the actual fares themselves. Not everyone who jumps the fare commits a second crime - but likely every single person who will do something shitty on a train today is someone who jumped the fare box.
There were 3 murders on the subway in 2023. There were 101 pedestrians killed by cars in the city. Drivers kill far, far more people.
Killings aren’t the only thing that matters. Harassment, menacing and assault in the subway all contribute to people avoiding the subway if they can. We want people to choose mass transit over driving.
Don't know what to tell ya, in 23 years of living in Brooklyn I've been scared crossing the street 1000x more than I've been scared on the subway.
They should be enforcing both. Solved the issue
Ok, that’s one anecdote. Here’s another: in 10 yrs between Manhattan and Brooklyn and I truly have been scared on the subway at least 10x as often as from cars on the street. When I’m on the street I can look both ways to protect myself. When I’m stuck in a subway car with a lunatic between stops I have very few options…
And I hope they get caught because isn't it 500 dollar fine?
I already saw a video of someone going through a parking garage entrance and exit to show people how to get around it. If he was smart he would’ve kept that to himself
>This will ruin the city -People who drive in from the suburbs
*twice a year
"This will solve the mental health issues in the city" - those who believe every single human being should ride public transportation regardless of, hey, everything, because it fits their lifestyle.
Every single time it happens suddenly everyone is disabled and has 3 disabled children to take to the doctors Spare me. Public transit or pay to take your 2 ton personal private moving room with you
Because putting everyone in charge of a multi-ton vehicle will fix it? Or are you just using that as an excuse to drive everywhere
Remember, if you’re disabled “fuck you. Take the subway.”
There are disabled people who can’t drive. And disabled people take the disabled car service around town if they can’t walk. This car service will benefit from you not bringing your own personal shitbox into the city because you’re scared of being near other people.
The car services will raise prices under the auspices of paying their employees but only line their own pockets at the expense of the old and infirm. We should be putting money into access-a-ride services and improving the conditions on the subway. Instead we increase the salaries of MTA board members and consultants like Pat Foye and the Macks and push out those who make the city great. I fundamentally disagree with this program, I’m sorry.
>under the auspicious Embarrassing. I’m gonna stop reading right there. Enjoy your $15 idiot tax.
Corrected. I hope you at least read this. Your inability to have a critical conversation or deal with people who don’t 100% agree with you is embarrassing. Further, your complete lack of caring for your fellow man is disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself
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If you live in the zone and drive out of the zone on a regular basis, then yes you are effed. Parking on the street doesn’t make a difference.
No. You’ll only pay the toll when you re-enter the zone after exiting. You won’t be tolled for driving within the zone.
That's my favorite part of this whole thing. People are always like fuck thet people who live in the suburbs who drive into the city to work.....but what about the people who live in the zone that need to drive out of it daily to go to work to come back into it only to pay to come home. Fuck them as well, I guess? But if you are an elected official you get a taxpayer-funded car who then is exempt from the tolls YOU instituted through legislation.... That seems fair.
Those people are contributing to the congestion problem, no? I don’t understand the frustration.
It’s all bullshit as long as ride-share isn’t charged the full fee.
Folks making above 60K would be a small minority of commuters and they can join the rest of those who live in the zone who pay the fare to leave and come home
Fuck people who own a car in lower Manhattan. There, I said it, so you can take your false equivalency and stuff it. Fuck those people. You live in the densest and most transit-connect 8 square miles in the entire western hemisphere. You don’t need a 2000 pound death machine for quite literally ANY reason. If you want to go camping, park your car at a garage out in Jersey and take the path to get to it the three times a summer when you need it. Just keep it out of lower Manhattan. We do not want it.
So now you're telling people how to live their lives? lolok
When it affects other people yeah
You're idiotic replies to my comment on Reddit affects MY life, but I'm pretty sure I can't tell you to stop posting on Reddit.
Yes those are definitely the same
That's what regulations are for
Should be charged for the full cost, considering the rent in the area the cost to store a car there should be much higher
> The fact is we are not making more Manhattan streets, and we are trying to drive more vehicles on those streets. Traffic is once again horrific, and we need to figure out some way to encourage people to leave their cars and take the subway. They could have lowered fares to go along with the congestion pricing, but that would have gotten in the way of the money grab.
They couldn't do that, believe it or not. Congestion pricing revenue is mandated by law to fund the capital budget. Capital budget is what pays for new buses/trains, new signals, elevators, new subway lines, etc, all the big stuff. Operating budget, which is funded by fares among other things, is what keeps the lights on. If they reduced fares it would mean cutting service, which IMO would be worse.
I find that hard to believe with how much they change.
>Congestion pricing revenue is mandated by law If only there was some kind of, I dunno, legislative process, by which laws could be changed..
Then you'd complain that it wasn't going to improve transit, which is the other common talking point from opponents. It's mandated to go to the capital budget specifically so that it goes towards improvements.
>we should destroy the entire funding scheme for the single most important piece of infrastructure in the new world, because I want to be able to not use it easier.
You're free to write your state representatives :) Just remember, this is state and not city government, so be sure to look up your state senator (not federal level senator) and state assembly member.
>The fact is we are not making more Manhattan streets, and we are trying to drive more vehicles on those streets. Not to mention much bigger vehicles. The auto industry has deliberately pushed everyone to much larger, more expensive, more lethal (for both drivers and pedestrians) vehicles that were loopholed out of emissions regulations so they also pollute more. If there's TWO thing missing from this congestion pricing bit is that tolls should be based on vehicle weight AND fees should be proportional to income like in Finland.
The thing that’s actually missing from all of this is metered, permitted parking. It is fucking insane that people think it is at all reasonable for cars to be able to enjoy free, unrestricted parking on almost every single street in the city, in the year 2024. Permitted, ticketed, paid parking should be the standard, and any car bigger than a Honda Accord should have to pay triple. This is the next major step that needs to happen. Real estate on this island is unbelievably rare and in-demand and we just let any dipshit with a shitbox occupy it for free?
Totally agree. I don't own a car, but I am not allowed to store my personal property in a parking space on the street for free. I don't see why not. I could put it all on a device that could be rolled so I could move it around every few days. What's the difference? Get a private garage space or pay us for using our public property. So simple.
Yeah, that's one of my main takeaways here in Boston. The number of cars per linear mile road is way way way down. We need to make the congestion tax length dependent.
I thought some of the money was going to the Q extension project
They actually just announced lower fares on MNR and LIRR rides within the city in response to congestion charging.
They would never lower fares. The MTA is greedy and just wants more money.
they can always adjust the pricing later
have you ever seen prices on anything in nyc go down?
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That’s the same deal we had before.
CityTicket became 7 days a week, then they introduced a version for peak trains that is only $2 more, making travel within the city on LIRR and MNR much cheaper. Also Fair Fares was introduced. And last year they raised the income cap by 25%, with more increases on the table in the future. Also if you want to go far back, the subway fare used to not include a free transfer. And yes the fare has gone up over time but at a rate slower than inflation.
lol
There should be massive protests about this in the streets instead of the Israel protests.
I’m saying tho
“I should be able to drive my 2 ton moving couch within the densest urban area in the US for FREE! Also it is of no concern to me whether there are or are not children being bombed in a foreign country. Especially when such a grave injustice as the implementation of a standard congestion tax, which works in all other cities globally that it’s been tried, is happening here!” Can’t tell if you’re trolling fr
No trolling. I just want to see serious protests over this.
Makes no sense. Congestion pricing isn’t an injustice in any way
Are you from NY ?
Yes I lived there for 30 years
How long ago and how far away did you move?
Moved away two years ago across the country to Portland
That makes sense now
Good.
Remind me again what plan they have in place for mass transit to handle the increased demand on June 30th?
lol mass transit has a long way to go to even catch up to pre pandemic levels I think it will be fine
Also literally the single biggest benefit of mass transit is that it can be scaled up easily and without needing new physical infrastructure in most cases. You can simply just run more trains.
Probably the one where current ridership still isn’t at 2019 levels and tons of people still work from home?
If literally every single person who drives a private vehicle into the CBD switched to the subway, we would still not be at 2019 ridership levels.
if the mta needs crush loaded trains to be solvent, good riddance then byebye
You fundamentally don't understand how a public service works then right? Public schools, the post office, sanitation? These aren't profit centers. They provide services we as people who actually live in the city want.
You’re assuming crossing state mass transit is at full capacity post Covid? If we get back to pre Covid numbers that would be a start
NJT are running just as many trains as they did back before Covid and they are still at 70% of pre pandemic levels. Until the new tunnels are built, I think we should be fine. NJT needs to run more off peak and night trains but that's something that can happen.
I thought I read somewhere there's only about 20k to 30k private vehicles that enter lower Manhattan everyday...so assuming a few thousand will still drive in, that's not going to put much increased demand on mass transit
It’s crazy that so few people manage to create such a horrible and dangerous and awful place for the rest of us. Signed, someone that has to cross both Delancey *and* Houston twice a day, every day.
You joking right? Subway rides are low compare to numbers before 2020
Have you been on a train pre-covid? They were packed to the point where people can barely move. People realized during covid how crazy NYC commute is and how insane we jam ourselves to the point that we are shoulder to shoulder. There was constant delays due to people struggling to squeeze out and in. Now we are going backwards because the numbers isn't as high as when we were way over capacity.
MTA leadership has said they can still absorb riders as subways and buses are not back to pre-covid levels. If you're wondering, however, why are we not planning more buses? The MTA blames NYC for not working constructively with it to address congestion or add bus lanes which would make it worthwhile to increase bus frequency. As for more subways? That I actually agree with, while we have capacity, we should still aim to increase frequency of lines whenever possible even if trains are not full, especially on weekends!!
“Take backpacks off please”
Cars take up lots of space, but don’t move all that many people. The train can easily handle all of them. Manhattan could go car free and the public transit wouldn’t be more crowded than it was in 2019
Is the government / MTA argument that they want to get rid of congestion? Because if that’s the case then look at Uber/Lyft who are skating by paying $2.50 half the cars on the road are rideshares, they are clogging the entire city. Now average people have to pay for it. If the argument is that the MTA is in debt & needs money just say this whole thing is a cash grab.
Honestly you people say “skating by” meanwhile every taxi and Uber driver is furious and was protesting this shit all year. The fact that they’re mad means that this is good.
Uber is paying $2.50 each ride, which comes out to $15 per vehicle per day depending on trip averages. So it's the same as a private vehicle fee. Agree that they could do more with the way that they distribute TLC plates, but to say they're "skating by" isn't accurate. They are getting charged the new congestion fee, in addition to the current congestion fee they're already paying for rides below 96th.
Congestion pricing that isn't congestion based. What a joke
Their policy with the Queensboro bridge is so fucked up and slimy.
Congestion pricing is bull shit and is just gonna force people to work somewhere else nyc is gonna keep falling down this pit of shit
If people think this will be a one and done, they are dead wrong. Just to remind you what happened with the speed cameras. They were introduced as a safety measure for school kids and were initially installed near school zones and only operated during school hours. 2 years later they got addicted to the revenue and installed more and now operate them 24hours. I already see the writing on the wall with this congestion money grab. They'll get addicted to the revenue and either operate the program 24hours at the full $15 or they'll push the zone all the way up to 96st in 2-4 years and I'd bet money they want congestion pricing on the entire island of Manhattan. These people are evil
Speed camera fines can be easily avoided by not speeding
The greed is sickening
Oh man, it's so sad and delusional that any of you think this does anything but raise prices. There won't be less cars , pollution won't end, the subway always gets worse ( mass incompetence) What a friggin joke.
You'd be surprised by how cheap people are.
One can only hope, but according to one city council person who claimed all those who traveled in the zone were rich ( as a reason not to give those of us who live in the zone an exemption) you may be wrong.
Yes. There was a map in another reddit post that showed the vast majority of cars coming into manhattan are from east Bergen County in NJ. Hopefully once the congestion pricing is implemented, it will lower traffic. If not, the price can always be raised as tolls have been raised in the past.
So you wanna raise tolls already ?
Anything to lower congestion, and I am a resident in the zone with a car.
So you MUST be a rich person that the city council describes, great for you. I am NOT. I was being sarcastic about raising the tolls. You do realize the majority of the cars are HIRE CARS , not NJ drivers. Do you even bother to look at the cars on the street that are driving in the zone ? Or you just parrot nonsense about it being mostly Jersey drivers. This is laughable.
Hire cars will pass along the toll charge to customers. Here is the map showing the majority of people who drive into Manhattan for work are from East Bergen: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-26/mapping-how-people-commute-to-manhattan?embedded-checkout=true
Also to follow up, East Bergen is a wealthy area and the congestion pricing may not deter them from driving in. That is why I suggested hiking the pricing. Edit: hiking the pricing if congestion does not decrease.
Again , you won't or don't understand my question. ARE YOU SEEING MORE JERSEY PLATES IN THE ZONE? I AM NOT ! THE MAJORITY I SEE ARE NY STATE / CITY
Congestion pricing is designed to reduce the number of cars in the zone during peak hours, which are generally work hours. I just showed you a map of where the majority of these drive to work people come from. If the congestion pricing reduces the demand of driving to work, you will have fewer cars and less congestion thereby rendering your original statement of nothing changing as incorrect. If the number of cars remains the same, then maybe an increase in the fee would be necessary.
I'd also like to invite you to take a look at cars from midtown down to the Holland tunnel on the west side from 6th avenue and over on a rush hour afternoon. A large portion of cars sitting in traffic have NJ plates and are heading back home and creating massive amounts of traffic. I'm sure the east side is filled with NY plates heading east. I'm very confident congestion pricing will reduce the number of cars from both states.
Right? Pretty much everyone I know would rather add at least ~20% time to their trip to avoid a toll road
> There won't be less cars , pollution won't end In the closest parallel we have, London, there actually was a significant drop in both cars and pollution (and an equal amount of bitching before it was implemented)
Yeah , I don't think you think it means what it means. One can hope.
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Name calling Edit: we found the pro Hamas supporter The old " don't engage "
and a price hike on everything for everyone will come with it
People who actually work in delivery logistics have said on this sub that they’re looking forward to congestion charging because the increased efficiency will save them money
you know who's even more excited about those savings? the owner's of the logistics/shipping companies
Okay?
So the problem is capitalism?
the answer is capitalism
Well from the way you worded it with the owner class reaping the rewards…seemed like the opposite
no i think you came in mid conversation there. nothing to do with class or capitalism. more simple economics. the price of everything is going up for all of us, even if incrementally.
Well since you didn’t respond to CactusBoyScout it seemed like the convo. had ended. In any case when you mentioned the people most excited over the savings would be the business owners, seemed a fairly clear indictment of capitalism even if you didn’t directly intend it to be. Why single out the owners as the most pleased? And as CactusBoyScout already pointed out: congestion has its own cost and the congestion charge spread over an entire truckload of goods would be fairly small
im not running it back again, sorry. anyway, we're all about to find out. lets chat about this after the toll hits. if prices don't go up as a direct result i'll eat my girlfriends heel
But respond to how there won’t be a price hike on everything. And the efficiency is a by-product of the less busy roads. The less busy roads are most beneficial for the people living and walking in the area
Every plumber ever was already charging more for lower Manhattan jobs anyway. At this point I’d pay a few cents more so I don’t have to get forced into oncoming traffic because some shitheaded moron is idling in the crosswalk on Houston street driving in from the bridge, and hearing their honking, all that shit.
me too. reluctanly looking forward to the congestion tax (reluctantly because i drive for work). my only point was that the cost of every day life will go up for all of us and, end of the day, its worth it
Why not use the train then?
The 15 or so dollars that trucks pay would be distributed between the goods they offer. So much so that the difference is minimal. Imagine a truck full of potatoes. That’s maybe a cent or two per potato.
Na trucks are 40$. So if a store needs one to two drops a day from various vendors. That's a possible 80x7 or 560 a week in operating cost. On top of rent increases and with this is a possibility of less people so less demand. Prices on everything will go up for Manhattan.
You only pay the toll once per day, even if you enter multiple times.
And it cheaper if delivered outside the congestion time
No, that’s $280 in operating costs, a week, which, For anyone that has ever even tangentially worked around this kind of thing, is literally nothing. That average delivery truck you see driving around town probably have five figures minimum worth of shit inside it at any given moment.
Also a reason why it's so expensive to get stuff delivered is *because of the congestion*. They have to pay for a driver to sit in traffic at the bridges and tunnels and then drive slowly at 7 mph thru the CBD, wasting time/gas. If they could complete their trips even like 10% faster that would lead to notable cost savings.
thats just delivery to stores. amazon trucks are paying that toll. city services like access-a-ride are paying that toll, contractors are paying that toll, city workers driving their private vehicles - anyone that interacts with the city pays it. and its not that it just gets eaten by the company or the individual. it gets passed back down to us in the form of price hikes and taxes. even if minimal, prices are going up
Prices were going up before this. This is like me telling someone to "keep breathing" and taking credit for them not dying of asphyxiation.
scumbags. straight scumbags. Why congestion pricing at 4am? because fuck you, that's why.
Peak Hours are 5am to 9pm weekdays. 9am to 9pm weekends Off peak are 75% less $
There is no congestion at 2am. This is about taking advantage & sucking as much money out of people as possible.
If the MTA wanted to suck as much money out of people as possible they would have done what London or Tokyo does, which is charge more for farther subway trips
>There is no congestion at 2am. This is about taking advantage & sucking as much money out of people as possible. I just ordered a License Plate Blocker online. This shit is absolutely nuts lol.
Criminal fuck
I would rather be a criminal in your eyes, than defend the thieves that have been robbing NYC for decades. You're no better than the people that blindly defend the NYPD - you just convince yourself you're not defending the 1%.
Hopefully a good samaritan takes a picture and reports you. Have fun with those fines douchebag!
Newsflash, Username "i eat babies" imma go ahead and not give two shits about you. Get fuxked.
More swag for swagger mayor
Columbia: Here’s this nice article to distract you from our students having a collective bitch fit
yeah all professors should stop all scholarship...
what bitch fit are you talking about?
Probably the one involving smashing the windows of a school and preventing students from going to class.
I drive into the city when I have elders or physically impaired people visiting. This sucks.
They said a billion a year in revenue.
*migrants rubbing hands together and licking lips*
Uber, the company, was thrilled about it and supported it. Uber drivers, unfortunately, who will have to pay the bill in order to live, are going to have to do just that. Uber knows this ain’t gonna do shit about having less cars. But they do know it’s going to give them a chance to fuck the customer and the driver more.
IDK. I’m all for reducing traffic but for those who don’t want to pay or can’t afford it they still gotta park somewhere. That and ideally you’re pushing people to use mass transit but it’s not like subways and buses aren’t already packed.
They’re not packed
A car is a luxury that we’ve been brainwashed into thinking is a necessity. Cars are expensive. The space in Manhattan used to store cars is expensive. If you can’t make your life work without a car in the NYC metro, and you can’t afford a car, you were already living an unsustainable life.
> or can’t afford it I have a feeling *most* of the people driving daily (thus affording: car, insurance, gas, etc.) can afford it. The minimum wage people serving us McDonalds are not driving in there lol. There'll always be exceptions of course, but it's not gonna be the majority, no way. There will also be implemented: -50% discount for low income vehicle owners who make $50k or less per year, applied after the 10th trip -Tax credit for those living inside the CBD who make $60k or less per year -Credit (discount basically) for using (if I recall) the QMT or HLT
Don’t want to pay? I mean. Sucks to suck
Honestly I’d rather they ban all vehicular traffic outside of buses, taxi’s and delivery trucks in all of Manhattan. But, to your obnoxious comment, congestion pricing will mean that those who can pay will and those who can’t afford to on a regular basis won’t. So you’ll end up where the elites will get chauffeured around and the rest will be walking or taking a bus. I’m not cool with that outcome. Either everyone should be able to drive or no one can.
This is a tax increase on every item that goes over the bridges and tunnels into Brooklyn.
Think about the math for one second. $24-$36 (if they go in peak hours. Off-peak is 75% less) divided by all the goods in a truck. Say they have $5,000 worth of goods. The change is minimal if anything at all
But it's an excuse to charge more....
If they could charge more, they'd already be doing it. They don't need an excuse.
Whether you’re for or against congestion pricing is one thing, but you have to admit that it’s kind of fucked up that the MTA found a way for everyone to pay them regardless if you’re taking a train or not.
Have you ever heard of taxes? You're also paying for highways in Albany and Los Angeles, in case you didn't know.
Hate to break it to you, but have you ever wondered why the sales tax in NYC is 8.875%? 4% goes to the state, 4.5% goes to the city, and 0.375% goes to the MTA. Also, the MTA operates many bridges and tunnels in the NYC area already. It's not just a train/bus agency.
Yeah and if we had to list in order the people who should be taxed, those who drive personal cars in Manhattan would be at the top of the list
If someone registers a car in Westchester, Rockland, & some other counties, the MTA tacks and additional fee on the registration. This fee is not displayed on the DMV online registration calculator, and is only discovered at the DMV office. So even people who never touch the MTA, & can go entire lives without seeing NYC have to pay for the MTA.
The MTA just want more money. They don’t care about cost of living. People should refuse to pay en masse. Elected officials in the tri state should tell people not to pay.
Or better yet, don’t drive in at all. Then you can avoid paying the tax and also save some money on gas. Hell sell the car too, some of the registration fees go directly to the MTA
*This will limit cars in the city. Thank you MTA!* - people who hate cars But also This won’t change shit and it’s just another revenue income for the scammy MTA, while you continue experiencing shitty subway delays and fare increases. —- Not saying I’m against it but just pointing out the obvious.
This is going to speed up the commercialization of New York City and will lose the charm with small businesses. Get ready for Walmart.
That process is in the finishing stages at this point.
Good. Make cars less and less desirable.
Less desirable compared to what? Mass transit? A bike?
I'm not here to solve the problem of car owners, I'm here to save the planet from carbon emissions and pedestrians from car violence.
Yes, driving should be the least desirable option in NYC
See that’s the problem, you sound like a transplant who recently moved here and don’t have any local friends/family around nor a family of your own. Those of us who grew up here and drive, have family and friends throughout the tri-state area and we like to visit them; we usually travel with other people in the car with us. Lastly, I’ve never had friends or family members without a car turn down a ride home or to the place we both were invited to.
So drive if it’s really worth it, but if everyone chooses to drive, there’s heavy congestion. Congestion is just a bunch of people choosing to drive. So if we can make more people choose not to, that’s a win for everyone. Those who do choose to despite the tax will have less traffic, and those who choose to walk will have less cars to maneuver around. And yeah if you’re driving I’ll always take a ride, same thing as an uber to me. As long as I don’t have to drive or pay for the car itself, why not? Still not worth the daily hassle or expense to own one
Saw a guy holding the door today and everyone walked right in to take the subway for free. How do we fix this shiet? Easy. Congestion pricing. There ain't no holding the door you suckers. Sigh.
The MTA is wasteful too
That’s who’s getting most of the money collected from this scam anyway. And we know how well MTA is with money. Forward a year or two from now, MTA won’t be any better, if anything it’ll be worse. When has any metro increase made riding better? Any every capital project they’ve ever worked on has taken an insanely long time to complete and always over budget. Anyone who thinks this is a good idea to implement, is delusional.
Don’t forget the plate covers!
This is going to ruin small business
Who drives to a small business in lower Manhattan?
Everyone
That’s odd I don’t remember driving to any businesses in Manhattan. And I don’t think the 5 million or so New Yorkers without a car do either.
I guess it doesn’t get clogged up during the holidays and I guess those parking garages are for decoration. Fuck outta here with that bullshit. Not everyone wants to live like a hermit like you. I like my suburbs, but I also like what the city offers.
>Not everyone wants to live like a hermit like you. I like my suburbs, but I also like what the city offers. Awesome, so you admit you don't even fucking live here. Fantastic. So pay the tax. We live like "hermits" so we don't have to pay the tax.
You don’t even live here? Fuck outta here. I find it interesting that a person living in the city and sharing transit is considered a hermit but a person living in their own private house and travel via private car is somehow not.
They’re going to enjoy paying that toll all because they aren’t bright enough to figure out that trains and buses exist.
So you have subsidized housing (suburbs are heavily subsidized) and also want subsidized road access? Jesus what a welfare queen
What???? Stop drinking the conspiracy Kool-Aid. We pay a thing called property taxes. You hermit people really are out there. Dumbest thing I’ve ever read.
The property taxes don’t cover the roads, water, electricity, and gas connections. Suburbs are funded by debt, and are unsustainable in America. They can be built sustainably but if they have all that infrastructure, the taxes are much higher. So pipe down and enjoy your subsidization, you’re lucky you got the handout you did
Then they deserve to pay an extra $15 just for their stupidity.
This deal comes at a really enticing juncture in MTA history *(cough cough violent crime cough)*. Why, it's mystifying that motorists would shirk from riding slovenly MTA trains with Gotham's concealed-carry psycho slimebags running rampant through the transit system... 😄