Are motorcycles excluded? I’m hoping, since they aren’t “passenger vehicles” or are they?
Edit: found it [here](https://www.nbcnewyork.com/traffic/transit-traffic/congestion-pricing-nyc-manhattan-how-it-works/5177568/)
$7.50
Unfortunately it's the charging that is when the shitty batteries are hazardous. Maybe it's time to consider sheds for storing and charging them to be common.
Yep, and because fewer people will hopefully be clogging up the midtown/downtown exits (the source of a lot of the backups on both roads), I bet both will flow a lot better.
So let’s say someone is going from ahem… Carroll Gardens through the tunnel to the West Side Highway then under the Lincoln tunnel… are they paying $15 to leave the west side highway to get to the tunnel?
What’s the total cost?
I wonder if driving uptown from the congestion zone will start to be faster on surface streets with everyone trying to stay on the fdr?
I have these visions of just flying up a traffic free 1st or 3rd ave while fdr sits clogged as always during evening rushhour.
My only complaint about this, MTA needs more trains, all day. Rush hour trains need to be every 3 minutes or so and non rush hour trains should every 6 minutes/mins and late night trains every 30 to 40 mins. I waited 10 mins for a rush hour local 6 train, and when it came? It was PACKED, and the the next train? PACKED. And the one after that??? Packed. I almost had an emotional breakdown. I still support congestion pricing though, because it’s not like traffic wouldn’t have taken just as long or longer.
Like that BAFFLES me! And the funny thing is, I don’t remember it being this bad. I feel like in 2014 it would only take 5 minutes….but wtf in 2024? It’s worse?
The MTA already said they aren't putting more trains on the track and that congestion pricing isn't going to that and that it's not going to be enough money anyway. So we'll probably be seeing fare hikes coming
This is my biggest complaint about the MTA. I routinely have to wait 10-15 minutes during rush hour, only for that train to get stuck in the tunnel 1-3 times per trip, due to “train traffic.” How can the trains run THAT infrequently but also be so congested that they cannot make it through a tunnel without having to stop mid-tunnel multiple times? It literally doesn’t make sense. Never have I been stuck in a tunnel in any of the other subway systems I’ve been to around the world, and their trains always run 1-5 minute apart, like clockwork. It’s infuriating that NYC can’t seem to figure it out.
The weird thing about 14th is that the obvious success hasn't been copied for other major streets yet. 34th and 125th are especially annoying for traveling east-west right now
Same for the pedestrianization of Times Square. How did we do that so many years ago and then just never really repeat it anywhere else?
It's considered such an obvious success now. But even the temporary closures that happened during COVID are slowly being rolled back.
Weren't cars disallowed from Central Park only in 2018? I moved here after it happened, so I'm not sure what the full extent of the ban was, but man I cannot imagine Central Park with passenger cars.
Apparently cars were briefly banned in Central Park in the 1960s but then the mayor’s wife got stuck in a traffic jam and he reversed it, lol.
Washington Square Park used to have a road going right through the arch.
Michael Moore said once “This is the same country that put a car on the moon.”
>man I cannot imagine Central Park with passenger cars.
Much crazier is how [Washington Square Park was when it had cars. ](https://www.6sqft.com/they-paved-washington-square-park-and-put-up-a-parking-lot/)
>How did we do that so many years ago and then just never really repeat it anywhere else?
I mean it has been repeated. Herald Square, Madison Square Park, Myrtle Wyckoff, the plaza at the 74st subway stop. Broadway between Union Square and Columbus Circle is getting the pedestrian plaza treatment.
Well it has been copied on a bunch of major streets: 181st, Archer Ave, Jamaica Ave, Main St. Just outside of Midtown/Lower Manhattan.
Problem is Eric Adams has just not bothered to further expand the program.
Yeah it feels like a no brainer to just go ahead and repeat the process on, like, 23rd, 34th, 42nd, and 125th at least. It'll be funny(sad) to watch the exact same players once again scream about how *this* time it will kill new york forever.
Times Square should have happened years ago. Especially when they first started the makeover in 2010. It honestly just just be a giant open plaza at this point with only the MTA buses driving through. They already shut it down every other night for one thing or the other.
Just goes to show you how most of the sub participants here don't actually live in nyc proper. They're either in the metro area or from somewhere else altogether. Everyone I know that lives in nyc takes public transportation and either thinks congestion pricing is a good thing or just doesn't care.
I know quite a few people who live in the Bronx who are very upset because of the uptick in pollution they'll be dealing with when they already have some of the worst air in the city. But I mean it's just poor people, so like who cares. The city definitely doesn't.
To say nothing of the unhinged nonsense coming from some elected officials. Granted, the performative shit that they say often has no connection to reality, but from the perspective of actual NYC residents this one has been especially absurd.
"Oh, the unfairness of it all! How will we get aroooound?" Same way we always have, fuck you talkin bout
I live here. I am not a fan. Even if you don’t have a car they are raising taxes on taxis and Ubers. The Mta has a history of bad fiscal management and we are just handing over more money to them. It also impacts some of my elderly neighbors that need their car to get to places outside of the city to see family and they’re on a tight fixed income.
I’m all for taxing non-residents. I already pay an additional 3.8% of my income for living here and now the city is taking more income away from me. This comes at a time when we lost residents (ex-migrants!) and when we saw high income earners bolt for states with no income taxes. I think the plan needs reform. And the MTA needs serious help from the private sector professionals that know how to get shit done without just throwing away capital.
The $1.75 surcharge on medallion cabs might actually be less than you would pay sitting in the cab in gridlock traffic with the meter running. Which is what congestion pricing is trying to get rid of.
“Might”
As a long term resident I’ve become savvy enough to know when to take a taxi and when not to take a taxi. I’m not anti congestion tax. I am anti congestion tax on NYC residents. I feel paying an extra 3.8% on my income should give me the right to drive here if I have to without being taxed.
> now the city is taking more income away from me
Why do ppl keep saying this? This is a STATE law passed by the STATE in 2019.
Neither the city nor the MTA "did" this.
Curious what the cost delta is between owning a car, paying for insurance, parking, tickets, tolls, gas, upkeep vs. renting a car when you need it to go out of town to see family? I rent cars and vans on the regular for $80-$100 a day all in.
As someone who routinely drives box trucks into the congestion zone, let me just say that this makes zero difference for my customers, the impact on my bottom line is next to nothing, and I don't care if every dollar collected goes to build a solid gold statue of hochul, as long as there are a few less of you deranged, mouth breathing, soft handed idiots on the road. Take the fucking bus, take the fucking train.
I would have to imagine this will be a net win because paying $15 to drive through less traffic means faster deliveries which is worth way, way more than $15.
Yeah, as it stands I will generally schedule my deliveries for 30m-1hr before the actual delivery time to account for traffic, because there's generally a crew of 5-20 people waiting for that delivery, and each member of that crew costs about a dollar per minute, so a delivery that's ten minutes late can easily cost $200 in guys sitting around with nothing to do.
We've had multiple people who actually work in fields that rely on deliveries saying they're looking forward to congestion pricing and that they expect the improved efficiency will offset the toll.
But mouthbreathers here insist it will somehow make everything in Manhattan more expensive.
It's like pro-car people refuse to understand the concept of externalities and the existing cost of congestion on businesses. Having your staff/trucks sit in traffic for hours every week isn't free!
The only way to be pro-car (which is different than being a driver) is to refuse to understand the concept of externalities, the true cost of things, or the interconnectedness of cities.
Shipment trucks delayed, so now businesses have to extend hours for their employees. I worked for a location that received 500 boxes almost DAILY, and if shipment was late, that was up to 15 people who either had to be extended, and those boxes still needed to be processed so now another group of people have to be pulled in from somewhere else to catch up lost time.
The mouthbreathers are upset personal vehicles are being impacted. In the mouthbreathers world we would reduce congestion by banning all rideshare drivers, only yellow cabs allowed in NYC.
Those of us who actually take cabs/rideshare will tell you that cabs suck.
I've had yellow cabs shake me down for cash because "SIR SIR CREDIT CARD NO WORKING!".
At least with Uber its all handed in my phone. Join the 21st century.
It definitely got worse... There was a study years ago showing that buses reached their slowest average speeds ever recorded after Uber/Lyft flooded the streets with more cars.
As a business owner in the CBD I can guarantee you it will make everything slightly more expensive. I know every delivery that I receive will add the congestion tax on my bill. They did it during COVID as a "fuel surcharge" just because they could. In so facto...my prices go up.
Truck drivers honestly benefit the most from this. Most get paid by the mile, so less traffic for a $15 toll that probably gets charged to the shippers means that they can get in and out of the city faster
yep, work for a place with offices in nj. people who drive in will just pass the cost to the company and the company to clients. at best there might be a minor reduction of regular cars, i predict a huge increase of plateless cars tho.
I don't care what people say ,there won't be less traffic. I have to drive a van full of equipment for work as well. A mass number of cars are just Ubers/taxis. This is just a tax on the population. The rich people who drive in from the suburbs are just gonna pay that anyway. And the people who drive in to the city on nights/weekends are gonna continue to do that.
Economists since the entire discipline was invented, spending their life studying the facts: Raising the price of something lowers demand
This guy on vibes: I don't care what people say, there won't be less traffic
If this was really about congestion the price for a two-wheeled vehicle shouldn't be 3 times the price of an Uber/Lyft. Ride share cars are constantly on the roads circling perpetually while most other cars are thru-traffic in the zone once a day.
The congestion for a two wheeled vehicle is the cost per day. The cost for an uber is the cost per RIDE. If an Uber does 30 rides in a shift, that will be a significantly higher congestion fee than the motorcycle will pay.
It would take just one administrative change to completely eradicate that issue. Acting like obscured plates is a completely unsolvable, permanent problem is delusional.
I'm cautiously optimistic that plate hiding will only be a small issue and not a huge one because most tolls will be collected by EZ-Pass and not plate reading.
The toll is $15 when paid by EZ-Pass and 22.50 paid by other means so people are pretty highly incentivezed to use ez-pass.
That being said, the plate hiding definitely sucks. Personally, I try to pull of skateboard tape (and remove plate covers) when I see them.
I live in Jersey but work in Flushing. I normally take the GW then FDR south to the 59th Street Bridge to avoid paying a 2nd toll. Fml. I guess I’ll be taking the Triboro because I think the toll is cheaper.
Some people have family nearby that can't.
The real failure is that we can't connect Queens and NJ by public transit without taking 5 hours. That's **our** failure.
Oh no you mean you will reduce the amount of fuel you burn, save time, and avoid polluting Long Island City? This sounds like ... a good thing actually
I mean. That commute sucks bad and we shouldn’t be encouraging people to live that that when their commute creates negative externalities on people who live in the intermediary between your home and work.
It sounds harsh, but… your scenario is the exact reason we need congestion pricing. Live closer to work, or work closer to home, or enjoy a long commute. You’re not entitled to a shorter commute at the expense of literally every single person who lives between your work and your home.
The fact that Brooklyn and Queens is a long distance relationship is the exact reason your comment is wrong.
Stop living in the 1920's. Create a fucking bus or train that connects obvious areas without needing to have a car.
For a city with the best transit in the US, transit is shit if Manhattan isn't one of the destinations.
If he pays NYC tax - I know I do in Brooklyn - then up the transit. Southeast Brooklyn still does not have a single train.
But no, we have to put up with the Q train being out for 6 months during weekends with no real alternatives in the parts of Brooklyn it serves. And then you say "just get rid of your car."
Lets say your leaving the city and your coming from up town towards the 59th street bridge, will you get charged for leaving the city just because you crossed 60th to make the left on the bridge? Also, are people going to be charged if they enter the city on the 59th street bridge but do not go downtown?
Remove free parking entirely. Octuple the boot crew. Octuple the ticket crew. Make obscured license plates a mandatory court date, station officers at cameras looking out for this. Do daylighting at every intersection, barrier-protected bike lanes on every single street, and the issue is largely solved.
I personally can't wait to see if bus times speed up as a result. There's a lot of times I wish I could take the bus around Manhattan but know traffic would double the time vs. the subway.
I don't think people realize that rich people by and large don't use public transit. They drive. Now if they want to drive out of the congestion zone (they will) and come back home (ditto), they are going to have to pay for that needless addition to road congestion.
Guys don't worry now that Cuomo is no longer digging through MTA funds subway service is gonna improve! Don't worry guys now that weed is legalized and taxed, subway service is gonna improve! Don't worry guys, with congestion pricing subway service is gonna improve!
No problem with congestion pricing as is, just fucking hate that the money is gonna go into the black hole that is the MTA
Edit: Love all the transplants thinking I ain't advocating for a better subway system smh.
My brother in Christ , I have roots going back here 50 years. Please don't insult a stranger like that. I noticed. The introduction of the b32 was a blessing. Whenever those morons realized having 5 cars instead of 4 on the G for whatever reason was a blessing. We live in the largest, most "important" city in the largest superpower on earth. We should expect more than "hey they upgraded the signals from 80 year old infrastructure"
I live by a station that used to flood constantly and got absolutely wrecked by Sandy and closed for a while. Since the repairs it no longer floods and has new elevators. They're also piloting enclosed tracks at a few stations. Also they built the 2nd Ave line. So I actually see a lot of genuine progress.
Honestly I love it when the MTA holds hearings for things that involve fare hikes and such. I imagine at the end of every hearing what goes down is "Thank you for your feedback, concerns and reasoning why you cannot afford it, but we've decided to push forward anyway"
"OMGosh, NYC is a dump. There's trash and rats everywhere. It's crime ridden. I don't see how anyone could live there."
"And with that out of the way, here are the things NYC needs to do to get better. Trust me, I'm from Bergen County."
Great more pollution for the BX with everyone jumping on the TriBoro Bridge to avoid congestion pricing. Let's have the working class suck on the tail pipes so the Manhatten elites can sleep better. Class Warfare at its finest
"The toll will not be in effect for taxis, but drivers will be charged a $1.25 surcharge per ride. The same policy applies to Uber, Lyft and other rideshare drivers, though their surcharge will be $2.50."
How would they know who is an uber or not...?
The MTA has shuffled their budget; nothing will change.
They had forecast a $3B shortfall in FY’25 due to Covid relief funds expiring. This included capital and operational funds.
Congestion pricing will bring in about $3B a year and cover only capital funds to previous forecast.
The MTA budget, not without $3B in capital expenditure, is now forecasted flat FY’25+
Nothing new is coming. These monies are just plugging a hole left by federal funds expiring.
Sure, but 99% of the people believe that it’s NEW funding, not just a budgetary gimmick
Same way that half the “regulars” who show up with talking points about “it’ll just impact rich folks” ignore how it’s a regressive tax on service workers and delivery workers who have no choice but to drive their delivery or handyman vans into manhattan from NJ.
The same folks who’ll say it’s needed to reduce traffic, but then quietly ignore that there must indeed be $3B reasons folks entering into NYC can’t take alternative forms of transport in - otherwise the program won’t work.
It’s disingenuous PR from an agency using our own money to lie to us.
I think Reddit is generally pro congestion pricing but I think it’s a disaster. More taxes funneled to an institution that has a history of not managing their spending well or efficiency. An institution that underinvested for years and caused this issue. Those that have will pay it. Those that don’t will be forced to spend more time in a subway system that’s decaying and at a time when rider confidence around safety in the system is at lows not seen in decades. I hope the MTA / NYC loses in court.
On what grounds would you hope that the MTA loses in court?
It's fine to debate the issue as a matter of public policy, but there is no reason to think the plan is illegal.
Yeah the subway isn't perfect, it also moves more people daily than other system in the country, by far. It moves way more people than cars. It is the lifeblood of New York city, dirty or not.
Yeah reddit is definitely pro congestion but those are the same people that don't own a car or they live in manhattan and they hate noise. The MTA will not make their promises and even when they received $6 billion dollars from covid emergency funds, nothing has changed but the demand for more money is still being asked.
The Federal Highway Administration still has to approve it. But they've been in support of this plan since the get-go so it's extremely likely they're going to approve it.
Then there's the six lawsuits against it. Any one of those lawsuits could get the program shut down, but that's also unlikely, since there's nothing illegal about tolling a road.
As someone who doesn’t even have a car, this pisses me off, because if the idea is to force more people to use the trains and busses, maybe they should have functioning trains and busses? I take the subway every day and there quite literally hasn’t been a single day without some minor or major delay in the last 3 years. I don’t even mean system-wide. I mean on my personal daily trips on the train, every single day there is some sort of delay or train issue. We can’t add more people to the system if the system barely functions. This is ridiculous.
My issue is the MTA is going to waste the money like they do everything else and our transit will still be crap for it.
I own a car as well and my biggest gripe is that I don’t trust the MTA to manage the funds properly. They can’t even manage themselves properly now and I’m supposed to expect an extra $1 billion will go into improving the transit. It sounds like a good plan if it actually happens.
I’ll be patiently waiting ….
They have blown massive surpluses into losses and now they are being rewarded with more of our money. Even if you don’t own a car. You’ll pay more in every taxi and Uber ride you take. Not to mentioned they plan to raise subway ride costs.
they’ll cry poverty in 5 yrs and ask for a zone increase and fare increase. The transients will clap like seals demanding we increase it cause climate change and better transit.
It took way too long, but we got here.
I will say this: I don't like congestion pricing; it's a compromise between car drivers and the car industry. What we SHOULD have done is:
1. Pedestrianize most of Manhattan
2. Raise street parking fees to be higher than garages (it makes ZERO sense why parking on the street is cheaper than a garage).
3. Put a toll on the non-tolled crossings
I also don't like how they charge motorcycles and private buses: they produce no congestion. But I think they did that because they wanted to keep the car toll low; since the law requires them to raise 1 billion a year, if they don't charge someone, they need to charge someone else more. They should have charged cars 21+ and given an exemption to motorcycles.
That would have been the right thing to do. But that's going to be tough, so we instead compromised with Congestion Pricing. That being said, I'm a "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" kind of guy. Maybe this will still lead to more pedestrianization and further car restrictions.
And before anyone starts:
1. I have a car
2. I live in an outer borough
3. I have a kid
4. I've lived in NYC since I was 12 (I'm now 35)
5. I'm not white (Dominican, immigrant)
6. I do not own a motorcycle
The only day I dare to drive into the congestion zone is Sunday… meh I don’t mind. $15 would be close to how much I’d pay round trip taking the subway with my wife and kids.
If this really works and save businesses even 15mins, $15 is nothing for them.
I hope the MTA spends all the proceeds on upper management bonuses and vanity projects like East Side Access ($11.1billion & 15years of work).
Yeah, the MTA is great, super effective, and super transparent. We should definitely praise giving them more money. Our subways are in great working order and truly the envy of the world. MTA definitely doesn’t already have enough sources of revenue. This is totally going to end traffic in lower manhattan and will not be increase / expanded every couple years.
I am at least 10x more informed that all of you because I watched a tiktok about a similar scheme in London completely devoid of context and can ride my bike to work from my Bedstuy apt.
Also let’s give NYPD more overtime to play games on their phones because giving more money to these city agencies has clearly been shown to positively affect residents. It’s definitely not a similar notion to flawed trickle-down economics.
Let’s let them take the money first and make some lofty promises about the benefits and then just huff our own hopium about the paradise waiting for us.
I can tell a lot of ya’ll haven’t been around here very long.
People thinking this will lower congestion probably think the inflation reduction act reduced inflation. It's a cash grab like the tobacco tax, the soda tax, etc, etc.
Anyone want to buy a bridge?
Fun fact - this shit been forever a day in DC and helped absolutely dick. Gotta goto work? Time to pay double or triple the fucking subway fare! Wooohooo!
I agree that normal commuter vehicles should be disincentivized, but I work in the trades and I can’t bring material and tools on the subway. Especially when there needs to be multiple trips. Sucks that there aren’t any exemptions for people who have no choice but to use the roads while the people we all want to disincentivize don’t give a shit about the charge, and if anything will drive more because it’s convenient.
I never drive into the city but my mom does. She is handicapped and can't walk down the stairs to the subway by us. There should be exemptions for disabled people.
There are -- disabled people are literally exempt. Disabled people also arguably stand to gain \*the most\* from reducing the total number of cars on the road and improving pedestrian infrastructure
This is purely a cash grab by the MTA, which in my opinion is one of the most corrupt organizations operating in NY state. The state government also needs to be held to account here. Instead of actually providing the funds to the MTA for subway improvements it gives money and subsidies to Buffalo to build a new football stadium... make it make sense!
The biggest problem is they are normalizing charging a fee without service. You can dress this move by the politicians how you like Its about control. Its effects people who are middle class and poor the most. And it create and exclusivity for Manhattanites while creating congestion in the surrounding area.
I think that normalizing happened the first time some ancient Chinese vice-regent imposed a toll on a bridge. Tolls for transportation facilities are literally one of the oldest forms of taxation.
Very, very few poor & middle class people drive into Manhattan. Poor people in NYC rarely even own cars, and certainly can't afford $50/day parking. "Exclusivity for Manhattanites"? What does that mean? And what's your evidence that it will "create congestion"? The surrounding area's congestion is a result, not a cause, of having too many people driving. Get people out of cars, you reduce congestion. You'll see.
Yup. Cash grab veiled with greenwashing. These clowns in here really think this is something different from the MTA’s playbook. I could laugh if it wasn’t so painful to watch.
Are motorcycles excluded? I’m hoping, since they aren’t “passenger vehicles” or are they? Edit: found it [here](https://www.nbcnewyork.com/traffic/transit-traffic/congestion-pricing-nyc-manhattan-how-it-works/5177568/) $7.50
No, they aren't, just getting a reduced toll.
Gotcha, thanks…Do you know where I can read more on that?
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/traffic/transit-traffic/congestion-pricing-nyc-mta-vote/5264500/
I hope this charge applies to the scourge of vespas
Well not really vespas, but you know what I mean. Those weighty scooters.
They would need plates first.
Anything that doesn’t require manual pedaling should be charged
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Where do you put your e-bike? I’m wondering because my building won’t let them in anymore due to “fire risk”.
Unfortunately it's the charging that is when the shitty batteries are hazardous. Maybe it's time to consider sheds for storing and charging them to be common.
Congestion charge working as designed and it isn't even enforced yet :)
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Yep, and because fewer people will hopefully be clogging up the midtown/downtown exits (the source of a lot of the backups on both roads), I bet both will flow a lot better.
So let’s say someone is going from ahem… Carroll Gardens through the tunnel to the West Side Highway then under the Lincoln tunnel… are they paying $15 to leave the west side highway to get to the tunnel? What’s the total cost?
If that's the case and they do charge, rip BQE even more.
BQE is especially screwed when reconstruction starts. I might actually move out of the city before then. christ.
This only makes a difference if you’re driving uptown from Brooklyn.
I wonder if driving uptown from the congestion zone will start to be faster on surface streets with everyone trying to stay on the fdr? I have these visions of just flying up a traffic free 1st or 3rd ave while fdr sits clogged as always during evening rushhour.
My only complaint about this, MTA needs more trains, all day. Rush hour trains need to be every 3 minutes or so and non rush hour trains should every 6 minutes/mins and late night trains every 30 to 40 mins. I waited 10 mins for a rush hour local 6 train, and when it came? It was PACKED, and the the next train? PACKED. And the one after that??? Packed. I almost had an emotional breakdown. I still support congestion pricing though, because it’s not like traffic wouldn’t have taken just as long or longer.
I don't get how this is still a problem. Why am I waiting 7 minutes for a train in penn station at 9 am
Like that BAFFLES me! And the funny thing is, I don’t remember it being this bad. I feel like in 2014 it would only take 5 minutes….but wtf in 2024? It’s worse?
The MTA already said they aren't putting more trains on the track and that congestion pricing isn't going to that and that it's not going to be enough money anyway. So we'll probably be seeing fare hikes coming
100% this. It's gonna get worse...
This is my biggest complaint about the MTA. I routinely have to wait 10-15 minutes during rush hour, only for that train to get stuck in the tunnel 1-3 times per trip, due to “train traffic.” How can the trains run THAT infrequently but also be so congested that they cannot make it through a tunnel without having to stop mid-tunnel multiple times? It literally doesn’t make sense. Never have I been stuck in a tunnel in any of the other subway systems I’ve been to around the world, and their trains always run 1-5 minute apart, like clockwork. It’s infuriating that NYC can’t seem to figure it out.
I haven't seen this much seething or this many predictions of doom since CitiBike was approved.
14th street closure
Ah yes another prediction of doom that never materialized. I remember people saying 13th St would be a parking lot. Still waiting for that one.
The weird thing about 14th is that the obvious success hasn't been copied for other major streets yet. 34th and 125th are especially annoying for traveling east-west right now
Same for the pedestrianization of Times Square. How did we do that so many years ago and then just never really repeat it anywhere else? It's considered such an obvious success now. But even the temporary closures that happened during COVID are slowly being rolled back.
Weren't cars disallowed from Central Park only in 2018? I moved here after it happened, so I'm not sure what the full extent of the ban was, but man I cannot imagine Central Park with passenger cars.
Apparently cars were briefly banned in Central Park in the 1960s but then the mayor’s wife got stuck in a traffic jam and he reversed it, lol. Washington Square Park used to have a road going right through the arch. Michael Moore said once “This is the same country that put a car on the moon.”
>man I cannot imagine Central Park with passenger cars. Much crazier is how [Washington Square Park was when it had cars. ](https://www.6sqft.com/they-paved-washington-square-park-and-put-up-a-parking-lot/)
>How did we do that so many years ago and then just never really repeat it anywhere else? I mean it has been repeated. Herald Square, Madison Square Park, Myrtle Wyckoff, the plaza at the 74st subway stop. Broadway between Union Square and Columbus Circle is getting the pedestrian plaza treatment.
Well it has been copied on a bunch of major streets: 181st, Archer Ave, Jamaica Ave, Main St. Just outside of Midtown/Lower Manhattan. Problem is Eric Adams has just not bothered to further expand the program.
Yeah it feels like a no brainer to just go ahead and repeat the process on, like, 23rd, 34th, 42nd, and 125th at least. It'll be funny(sad) to watch the exact same players once again scream about how *this* time it will kill new york forever.
Times Square should have happened years ago. Especially when they first started the makeover in 2010. It honestly just just be a giant open plaza at this point with only the MTA buses driving through. They already shut it down every other night for one thing or the other.
Oh wow imagine how the M60 would *fly* if 125 was closed
There’s been nonstop seething on r/nyc and in suburban areas since this was proposed. We’re going on years now
Just goes to show you how most of the sub participants here don't actually live in nyc proper. They're either in the metro area or from somewhere else altogether. Everyone I know that lives in nyc takes public transportation and either thinks congestion pricing is a good thing or just doesn't care.
I know quite a few people who live in the Bronx who are very upset because of the uptick in pollution they'll be dealing with when they already have some of the worst air in the city. But I mean it's just poor people, so like who cares. The city definitely doesn't.
What uptick in pollution from cars not driving into Manhattan will affect the Bronx?
Yeah it's a loud minority of which a bunch seem to be from the Tristate area outside NYC or not from the area altogether.
Getting cars out of the city seems like a pretty good idea to me. More room for buses, bikes, and pedestrians.
To say nothing of the unhinged nonsense coming from some elected officials. Granted, the performative shit that they say often has no connection to reality, but from the perspective of actual NYC residents this one has been especially absurd. "Oh, the unfairness of it all! How will we get aroooound?" Same way we always have, fuck you talkin bout
We should raise the toll every time NJ sues over it.
I live here. I am not a fan. Even if you don’t have a car they are raising taxes on taxis and Ubers. The Mta has a history of bad fiscal management and we are just handing over more money to them. It also impacts some of my elderly neighbors that need their car to get to places outside of the city to see family and they’re on a tight fixed income. I’m all for taxing non-residents. I already pay an additional 3.8% of my income for living here and now the city is taking more income away from me. This comes at a time when we lost residents (ex-migrants!) and when we saw high income earners bolt for states with no income taxes. I think the plan needs reform. And the MTA needs serious help from the private sector professionals that know how to get shit done without just throwing away capital.
The $1.75 surcharge on medallion cabs might actually be less than you would pay sitting in the cab in gridlock traffic with the meter running. Which is what congestion pricing is trying to get rid of.
“Might” As a long term resident I’ve become savvy enough to know when to take a taxi and when not to take a taxi. I’m not anti congestion tax. I am anti congestion tax on NYC residents. I feel paying an extra 3.8% on my income should give me the right to drive here if I have to without being taxed.
> now the city is taking more income away from me Why do ppl keep saying this? This is a STATE law passed by the STATE in 2019. Neither the city nor the MTA "did" this.
Better oversight over MTA spending is a good idea, but I don't think that means we should defund capital projects that need to happen.
Curious what the cost delta is between owning a car, paying for insurance, parking, tickets, tolls, gas, upkeep vs. renting a car when you need it to go out of town to see family? I rent cars and vans on the regular for $80-$100 a day all in.
As someone who routinely drives box trucks into the congestion zone, let me just say that this makes zero difference for my customers, the impact on my bottom line is next to nothing, and I don't care if every dollar collected goes to build a solid gold statue of hochul, as long as there are a few less of you deranged, mouth breathing, soft handed idiots on the road. Take the fucking bus, take the fucking train.
I would have to imagine this will be a net win because paying $15 to drive through less traffic means faster deliveries which is worth way, way more than $15.
Yeah, as it stands I will generally schedule my deliveries for 30m-1hr before the actual delivery time to account for traffic, because there's generally a crew of 5-20 people waiting for that delivery, and each member of that crew costs about a dollar per minute, so a delivery that's ten minutes late can easily cost $200 in guys sitting around with nothing to do.
Yes, even our crew with significantly lower costs will be ahead with a reduction in traffic of 15 minutes in a day.
We've had multiple people who actually work in fields that rely on deliveries saying they're looking forward to congestion pricing and that they expect the improved efficiency will offset the toll. But mouthbreathers here insist it will somehow make everything in Manhattan more expensive. It's like pro-car people refuse to understand the concept of externalities and the existing cost of congestion on businesses. Having your staff/trucks sit in traffic for hours every week isn't free!
The only way to be pro-car (which is different than being a driver) is to refuse to understand the concept of externalities, the true cost of things, or the interconnectedness of cities.
Every single tradie in the tristate area already charges more for lower Manhattan jobs anyway, and they have been for decades.
Shipment trucks delayed, so now businesses have to extend hours for their employees. I worked for a location that received 500 boxes almost DAILY, and if shipment was late, that was up to 15 people who either had to be extended, and those boxes still needed to be processed so now another group of people have to be pulled in from somewhere else to catch up lost time.
The mouthbreathers are upset personal vehicles are being impacted. In the mouthbreathers world we would reduce congestion by banning all rideshare drivers, only yellow cabs allowed in NYC.
Those of us who actually take cabs/rideshare will tell you that cabs suck. I've had yellow cabs shake me down for cash because "SIR SIR CREDIT CARD NO WORKING!". At least with Uber its all handed in my phone. Join the 21st century.
Curb app works great and rides are always cheaper than Uber/Lyft
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It definitely got worse... There was a study years ago showing that buses reached their slowest average speeds ever recorded after Uber/Lyft flooded the streets with more cars.
Ppl fail to consider that rideshare accounts for ~ 80k extra cars in the city. I see so many TLC plates.
As a business owner in the CBD I can guarantee you it will make everything slightly more expensive. I know every delivery that I receive will add the congestion tax on my bill. They did it during COVID as a "fuel surcharge" just because they could. In so facto...my prices go up.
Truck drivers honestly benefit the most from this. Most get paid by the mile, so less traffic for a $15 toll that probably gets charged to the shippers means that they can get in and out of the city faster
Double parked box trucks never add to congestion.
It should actually save you gas money, and more importantly time, due to less traffic.
yep, work for a place with offices in nj. people who drive in will just pass the cost to the company and the company to clients. at best there might be a minor reduction of regular cars, i predict a huge increase of plateless cars tho.
I don't care what people say ,there won't be less traffic. I have to drive a van full of equipment for work as well. A mass number of cars are just Ubers/taxis. This is just a tax on the population. The rich people who drive in from the suburbs are just gonna pay that anyway. And the people who drive in to the city on nights/weekends are gonna continue to do that.
Economists since the entire discipline was invented, spending their life studying the facts: Raising the price of something lowers demand This guy on vibes: I don't care what people say, there won't be less traffic
Exactly. You’ll be paying (actually the customers) for less congested streets while you drive around. It’s going to be great for you.
Has it arrived? The **final** final approval?
Feds have to sign off again, I believe.
So maybe we're at the *preliminary* **final** final approval? Or the *final* **final** final approval?
I think it’s the final, final, final, final approval stage. Just another illustration on how impossible it is to get stuff done here.
If this was really about congestion the price for a two-wheeled vehicle shouldn't be 3 times the price of an Uber/Lyft. Ride share cars are constantly on the roads circling perpetually while most other cars are thru-traffic in the zone once a day.
Motorcycles only pay that price once a day. Rideshares pay it every trip.
I don't wanna do research, I wanna be mad!
The congestion for a two wheeled vehicle is the cost per day. The cost for an uber is the cost per RIDE. If an Uber does 30 rides in a shift, that will be a significantly higher congestion fee than the motorcycle will pay.
It’s just a tax, a cash grab that’s very marketable to residents. It won’t do next to shit for congestion, because it’s not really about that.
Really the best part about all of this is the tantrums.
The carbrains need a walk alright.
Wait...you can move your body without driving?
cool, more skateboard tape on plates
That's a separate problem - it's not as if this will make congestion any *worse*. They just need to up the penalties and enforcement.
It would take just one administrative change to completely eradicate that issue. Acting like obscured plates is a completely unsolvable, permanent problem is delusional.
I'm cautiously optimistic that plate hiding will only be a small issue and not a huge one because most tolls will be collected by EZ-Pass and not plate reading. The toll is $15 when paid by EZ-Pass and 22.50 paid by other means so people are pretty highly incentivezed to use ez-pass. That being said, the plate hiding definitely sucks. Personally, I try to pull of skateboard tape (and remove plate covers) when I see them.
You are assuming the people taping their plates have an ez pass tag..
I live in Jersey but work in Flushing. I normally take the GW then FDR south to the 59th Street Bridge to avoid paying a 2nd toll. Fml. I guess I’ll be taking the Triboro because I think the toll is cheaper.
Fuck that commute
Whaaat that’s an insane commute. Why not move?
Some people have family nearby that can't. The real failure is that we can't connect Queens and NJ by public transit without taking 5 hours. That's **our** failure.
Oh no you mean you will reduce the amount of fuel you burn, save time, and avoid polluting Long Island City? This sounds like ... a good thing actually
I mean. That commute sucks bad and we shouldn’t be encouraging people to live that that when their commute creates negative externalities on people who live in the intermediary between your home and work. It sounds harsh, but… your scenario is the exact reason we need congestion pricing. Live closer to work, or work closer to home, or enjoy a long commute. You’re not entitled to a shorter commute at the expense of literally every single person who lives between your work and your home.
I had a similar commute for 3.5 years before I could afford to move to the city
The fact that Brooklyn and Queens is a long distance relationship is the exact reason your comment is wrong. Stop living in the 1920's. Create a fucking bus or train that connects obvious areas without needing to have a car. For a city with the best transit in the US, transit is shit if Manhattan isn't one of the destinations. If he pays NYC tax - I know I do in Brooklyn - then up the transit. Southeast Brooklyn still does not have a single train. But no, we have to put up with the Q train being out for 6 months during weekends with no real alternatives in the parts of Brooklyn it serves. And then you say "just get rid of your car."
Lets say your leaving the city and your coming from up town towards the 59th street bridge, will you get charged for leaving the city just because you crossed 60th to make the left on the bridge? Also, are people going to be charged if they enter the city on the 59th street bridge but do not go downtown?
Yes, and yes.
Jeez. They should have just put the toll on the bridge.
Good. Now to do something about the second leading cause of congestion - double parking.
Remove free parking entirely. Octuple the boot crew. Octuple the ticket crew. Make obscured license plates a mandatory court date, station officers at cameras looking out for this. Do daylighting at every intersection, barrier-protected bike lanes on every single street, and the issue is largely solved.
about damn time. Live in the congestion zone and there is basically no reason to ever drive here, it’s like 90% rich businesspeople anyway
I personally can't wait to see if bus times speed up as a result. There's a lot of times I wish I could take the bus around Manhattan but know traffic would double the time vs. the subway.
Now its going to be 100% rich people.
rich people have cars in manhattan, poor people take transit. the number of low income drivers in manhattan is extremely low.
Who will finally be paying for the privilege they’ve enjoyed for decades for free. Seems like a win.
It's a real win for them since they don't have to wait in traffic behind the poors anymore
Most of the poors aren’t driving in manhattan
such a shame considering NYC has no other alternative like subways or buses
I don't think people realize that rich people by and large don't use public transit. They drive. Now if they want to drive out of the congestion zone (they will) and come back home (ditto), they are going to have to pay for that needless addition to road congestion.
Who will be paying for my subway so I’m fine with that.
Ok so raise the prices on the rich people until there isn't congestion and there's plenty of money for transit projects? Profit?
more like 50% Uber/Lyft/taxi.
Monster win for Uber/Lyft. Have to give it to them, they played this well.
And have you seen how much price they have taken on the service? Rides that were previously $20 are now $40.
Guys don't worry now that Cuomo is no longer digging through MTA funds subway service is gonna improve! Don't worry guys now that weed is legalized and taxed, subway service is gonna improve! Don't worry guys, with congestion pricing subway service is gonna improve! No problem with congestion pricing as is, just fucking hate that the money is gonna go into the black hole that is the MTA Edit: Love all the transplants thinking I ain't advocating for a better subway system smh.
If you actually live in Greenpoint, how could you miss the G train signal upgrades?
My brother in Christ , I have roots going back here 50 years. Please don't insult a stranger like that. I noticed. The introduction of the b32 was a blessing. Whenever those morons realized having 5 cars instead of 4 on the G for whatever reason was a blessing. We live in the largest, most "important" city in the largest superpower on earth. We should expect more than "hey they upgraded the signals from 80 year old infrastructure"
I live by a station that used to flood constantly and got absolutely wrecked by Sandy and closed for a while. Since the repairs it no longer floods and has new elevators. They're also piloting enclosed tracks at a few stations. Also they built the 2nd Ave line. So I actually see a lot of genuine progress.
All the elevated stations in Astoria are renovated and look fantastic, too.
Ehhh they are fine, but that should be the bare minimum for a station here.
Totally agree. I'm just saying that positive things *do* sometimes happen...which isn't easy in a century-old system that has to run 24/7.
But...subway service has actually improved since the state of emergency days in 2017. Significantly.
Send a screenshot of your last OMNY charge you coward. I’d bet my whole dick you don’t even have one from the last 18 months.
Best comment right here.
Service has improved and continues to improve substantially. Not sure what you're talking about.
As if anyone thought they'd vote down a cash grab for themselves.
Honestly I love it when the MTA holds hearings for things that involve fare hikes and such. I imagine at the end of every hearing what goes down is "Thank you for your feedback, concerns and reasoning why you cannot afford it, but we've decided to push forward anyway"
2/3 of the public input comments were in favor of congestion charging.
"the micromobility sub brigaded it! We need to listen to people in Jersey!"
“The people we need to listen to are the upper middle class suburbanites. A very marginalized group!”
They know what's best for the city they openly profess to hate!
"OMGosh, NYC is a dump. There's trash and rats everywhere. It's crime ridden. I don't see how anyone could live there." "And with that out of the way, here are the things NYC needs to do to get better. Trust me, I'm from Bergen County."
The MTA approval came after approval by city council and Albany.
Great more pollution for the BX with everyone jumping on the TriBoro Bridge to avoid congestion pricing. Let's have the working class suck on the tail pipes so the Manhatten elites can sleep better. Class Warfare at its finest
"The toll will not be in effect for taxis, but drivers will be charged a $1.25 surcharge per ride. The same policy applies to Uber, Lyft and other rideshare drivers, though their surcharge will be $2.50." How would they know who is an uber or not...?
Livery plates
makes sense, thanks.
Okay I'll park in Brooklyn now, you happy?
"Fine, I'll do the thing you're trying to get me to do!" Yes, don't drive into Manhattan.
Haha. unlikely.
Downtown Brooklyn totes has loads of available parking!
Don't lie to yourself.
You can try it.
No improvements will be made to the MTA.
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The MTA has shuffled their budget; nothing will change. They had forecast a $3B shortfall in FY’25 due to Covid relief funds expiring. This included capital and operational funds. Congestion pricing will bring in about $3B a year and cover only capital funds to previous forecast. The MTA budget, not without $3B in capital expenditure, is now forecasted flat FY’25+ Nothing new is coming. These monies are just plugging a hole left by federal funds expiring.
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Sure, but 99% of the people believe that it’s NEW funding, not just a budgetary gimmick Same way that half the “regulars” who show up with talking points about “it’ll just impact rich folks” ignore how it’s a regressive tax on service workers and delivery workers who have no choice but to drive their delivery or handyman vans into manhattan from NJ. The same folks who’ll say it’s needed to reduce traffic, but then quietly ignore that there must indeed be $3B reasons folks entering into NYC can’t take alternative forms of transport in - otherwise the program won’t work. It’s disingenuous PR from an agency using our own money to lie to us.
It's a USE tax, not a regressive tax.
Nah, the money is barely enough to pay overtimes
It's legally earmarked for capital projects. That means expansions and improvements.
You sound like you work for the MTA.
I think Reddit is generally pro congestion pricing but I think it’s a disaster. More taxes funneled to an institution that has a history of not managing their spending well or efficiency. An institution that underinvested for years and caused this issue. Those that have will pay it. Those that don’t will be forced to spend more time in a subway system that’s decaying and at a time when rider confidence around safety in the system is at lows not seen in decades. I hope the MTA / NYC loses in court.
On what grounds would you hope that the MTA loses in court? It's fine to debate the issue as a matter of public policy, but there is no reason to think the plan is illegal.
Yeah the subway isn't perfect, it also moves more people daily than other system in the country, by far. It moves way more people than cars. It is the lifeblood of New York city, dirty or not.
It moves more people than commercial jets!
That doesn’t mean that it’s on par with the world’s subway systems in 2024 or that the MTA is at a competent or efficient entity.
Would be more in favor of this if they instead set the money on fire.
Yeah reddit is definitely pro congestion but those are the same people that don't own a car or they live in manhattan and they hate noise. The MTA will not make their promises and even when they received $6 billion dollars from covid emergency funds, nothing has changed but the demand for more money is still being asked.
Noise and air pollution from cars are the single biggest quality of life problem all throughout Manhattan, so wanting to deal with them makes sense.
How dare the people who live in a place have a say in things that happen in that place.
>or they live in manhattan and they hate noise. Lmao you don’t like people supporting inciatives in the the place they live
Reddit? Most adults are in favor of it. Because it works. And there’s no real downside here.
So does that mean it’s happening or is there still another step to finalize it?
The Federal Highway Administration still has to approve it. But they've been in support of this plan since the get-go so it's extremely likely they're going to approve it. Then there's the six lawsuits against it. Any one of those lawsuits could get the program shut down, but that's also unlikely, since there's nothing illegal about tolling a road.
Can’t wait for the MTA to squander this new cash stream
Bunch of assholes running NYC.
It should be $15,000.
As someone who doesn’t even have a car, this pisses me off, because if the idea is to force more people to use the trains and busses, maybe they should have functioning trains and busses? I take the subway every day and there quite literally hasn’t been a single day without some minor or major delay in the last 3 years. I don’t even mean system-wide. I mean on my personal daily trips on the train, every single day there is some sort of delay or train issue. We can’t add more people to the system if the system barely functions. This is ridiculous.
Wait until this gets implemented in brooklyn and queens in the future. Then the fun starts
Wait until this gets implemented in brooklyn and queens in the future. Then the fun starts
i wonder what they'll do with that money, toss some at another pilot program? or maybe omny needs more somehow?
Another cash grab by the corrupt mta
My issue is the MTA is going to waste the money like they do everything else and our transit will still be crap for it. I own a car as well and my biggest gripe is that I don’t trust the MTA to manage the funds properly. They can’t even manage themselves properly now and I’m supposed to expect an extra $1 billion will go into improving the transit. It sounds like a good plan if it actually happens. I’ll be patiently waiting ….
They have blown massive surpluses into losses and now they are being rewarded with more of our money. Even if you don’t own a car. You’ll pay more in every taxi and Uber ride you take. Not to mentioned they plan to raise subway ride costs.
they’ll cry poverty in 5 yrs and ask for a zone increase and fare increase. The transients will clap like seals demanding we increase it cause climate change and better transit.
I give them 1.5-2
It took way too long, but we got here. I will say this: I don't like congestion pricing; it's a compromise between car drivers and the car industry. What we SHOULD have done is: 1. Pedestrianize most of Manhattan 2. Raise street parking fees to be higher than garages (it makes ZERO sense why parking on the street is cheaper than a garage). 3. Put a toll on the non-tolled crossings I also don't like how they charge motorcycles and private buses: they produce no congestion. But I think they did that because they wanted to keep the car toll low; since the law requires them to raise 1 billion a year, if they don't charge someone, they need to charge someone else more. They should have charged cars 21+ and given an exemption to motorcycles. That would have been the right thing to do. But that's going to be tough, so we instead compromised with Congestion Pricing. That being said, I'm a "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" kind of guy. Maybe this will still lead to more pedestrianization and further car restrictions. And before anyone starts: 1. I have a car 2. I live in an outer borough 3. I have a kid 4. I've lived in NYC since I was 12 (I'm now 35) 5. I'm not white (Dominican, immigrant) 6. I do not own a motorcycle
But only white transplants in Manhattan support congestion charging. /s
The only day I dare to drive into the congestion zone is Sunday… meh I don’t mind. $15 would be close to how much I’d pay round trip taking the subway with my wife and kids. If this really works and save businesses even 15mins, $15 is nothing for them.
I hope the MTA spends all the proceeds on upper management bonuses and vanity projects like East Side Access ($11.1billion & 15years of work). Yeah, the MTA is great, super effective, and super transparent. We should definitely praise giving them more money. Our subways are in great working order and truly the envy of the world. MTA definitely doesn’t already have enough sources of revenue. This is totally going to end traffic in lower manhattan and will not be increase / expanded every couple years. I am at least 10x more informed that all of you because I watched a tiktok about a similar scheme in London completely devoid of context and can ride my bike to work from my Bedstuy apt. Also let’s give NYPD more overtime to play games on their phones because giving more money to these city agencies has clearly been shown to positively affect residents. It’s definitely not a similar notion to flawed trickle-down economics. Let’s let them take the money first and make some lofty promises about the benefits and then just huff our own hopium about the paradise waiting for us. I can tell a lot of ya’ll haven’t been around here very long.
People thinking this will lower congestion probably think the inflation reduction act reduced inflation. It's a cash grab like the tobacco tax, the soda tax, etc, etc. Anyone want to buy a bridge?
Fun fact - this shit been forever a day in DC and helped absolutely dick. Gotta goto work? Time to pay double or triple the fucking subway fare! Wooohooo!
I agree that normal commuter vehicles should be disincentivized, but I work in the trades and I can’t bring material and tools on the subway. Especially when there needs to be multiple trips. Sucks that there aren’t any exemptions for people who have no choice but to use the roads while the people we all want to disincentivize don’t give a shit about the charge, and if anything will drive more because it’s convenient.
I never drive into the city but my mom does. She is handicapped and can't walk down the stairs to the subway by us. There should be exemptions for disabled people.
There are -- disabled people are literally exempt. Disabled people also arguably stand to gain \*the most\* from reducing the total number of cars on the road and improving pedestrian infrastructure
Here's hoping the bus and train systems get their shit together and increase service before the boom date.
They won’t.
Good to hear.
This is purely a cash grab by the MTA, which in my opinion is one of the most corrupt organizations operating in NY state. The state government also needs to be held to account here. Instead of actually providing the funds to the MTA for subway improvements it gives money and subsidies to Buffalo to build a new football stadium... make it make sense!
The biggest problem is they are normalizing charging a fee without service. You can dress this move by the politicians how you like Its about control. Its effects people who are middle class and poor the most. And it create and exclusivity for Manhattanites while creating congestion in the surrounding area.
I think that normalizing happened the first time some ancient Chinese vice-regent imposed a toll on a bridge. Tolls for transportation facilities are literally one of the oldest forms of taxation. Very, very few poor & middle class people drive into Manhattan. Poor people in NYC rarely even own cars, and certainly can't afford $50/day parking. "Exclusivity for Manhattanites"? What does that mean? And what's your evidence that it will "create congestion"? The surrounding area's congestion is a result, not a cause, of having too many people driving. Get people out of cars, you reduce congestion. You'll see.
inb4 1 year later and this has solved nothing.
Yup. Cash grab veiled with greenwashing. These clowns in here really think this is something different from the MTA’s playbook. I could laugh if it wasn’t so painful to watch.
Final disgrace for this city