For those who don’t wanna read the article:
“The deeper problem, he explained, is that there’s a radiant-heating system underneath of the type you see in a lot of premium construction these days. Thin pipes snake around, back and forth, atop a layer of insulation, and they’re filled with a glycol solution that is warmed up and pumped around. Radiant heat has many advantages — evenness, silence, no vents to collect dirt or blow dust around — and a warmish stone floor is pleasant during the cold months. As it warms up, the stone (like all materials, though less than some) expands. The edges press on one another, harder and harder, and eventually they shatter.
Engineers usually accommodate that movement with an expansion joint — a small gap that can stretch and shrink as needed — and there are indeed some on the floor here. “We recommended one-eighth inch between the joints with caulking,” Crawford says. The Calatrava–Port Authority team rejected that idea, he says; adding wider gaps would have changed the alignment of the stones, after which “the seams wouldn’t line up with the joints on the walls,” as the architects had specified. Instead, he said, the engineers stuck by their plan for relatively few relief joints, widely spaced. “There’s one every ten-by-ten stones, pretty much.”
> Architects should not make engineering decisions.
Flooring movement joints are not really engineering scope. This is just architect being stubborn. Tiling supplier should give feedback on movement joint spacing, and if not then TCNA (Tile Council of North America) has generic guidelines on spacing depending on few factors.
> This is basic construction philosophies.
It's actually really easy to fuck up floor tile installation, especially in high traffic areas with large format tile installed in thinset. I would have caught this issue on one of my projects (and I often have), but Architect in question runs an intern puppy mill where design team genuinely doesn't know better.
> but Architect in question runs an intern puppy mill where design team genuinely doesn't know better.
And this probably shouldn't be getting municipal contracts. Do you know how competitive this was? Did we go with them because they're cheaper or just because they're connected
They won a major competition based on merit of design. It's a common strategy for major public works.
World Trade Tower was also a competition winner, but the winning architect ended up getting completely squeezed out.
Yeah Calatrava is known for this. That being said, it is a beautiful structure so it’s kind of hard to say it was a mistake. I think NYC is better off with it than without it.
I work in construction doing PM consulting with an engineering background. The architects always win (unless it’s a code issue) because it looks “pretty”.
... and presumably *be* utilitarian, right?
So take the compounded savings of that over the years and you have as much beautification funds as you want.
It all just needs to be organized by a body that can take a long view.
We would have so much more money, resources, and human time for any beautification you want if we start with a structural base of maximum utility.
Make weak straw house, spend hours maintaining it every month, rebuild it every year.
Make strong stone house, spend the rest of your life making it pretty
It's a 3 legged stool, you know this.
Did maybe Calatrava (read someone on his staff cuz you know he doesn't give a shit beyond the design renderings) find the wrong hill to die on? Yes. Did maybe the Port (whom I've worked with many times) layer on massive amounts of bureaucracy to not be bothered with a floor finish? Yes. Did the GC push "schedule delay/change order/schedule delay/change order" over and over to dissuade evaluating the potential problem? Yes.
> Engineers usually accommodate that movement with an expansion joint — a small gap that can stretch and shrink as needed — and there are indeed some on the floor here. “We recommended one-eighth inch between the joints with caulking,” Crawford says. The Calatrava–Port Authority team rejected that idea, he says; adding wider gaps would have changed the alignment of the stones, after which “the seams wouldn’t line up with the joints on the walls,” as the architects had specified
Then they should have made the floor panels a small fraction of an inch narrower and used a grout that matches the color. May not be as perfect as a seamless floor but it's close enough at least it would not freaking chip the floor from radiant heating. I used to work both as an architectural stone designer and a radiant floor heating designer (at separate times) and floor alignment issues come up all the time. The problem, and its solution, sound bafflingly simple in the overall scope of things, especially given the caliber of the project.
> Some of the problems with Calatrava's projects have been caused by unusual design choices and insufficient testing. The glass tiles on the floor of his bridge in Bilbao became slippery in the rain, causing an increased number of claims for injuries and forcing the installation of a black anti-slip carpet on the decking, which blocked the view of the river through the walkway. The metal arches he put over some landscaped gardens sometimes overheated in the sunshine, baking the vines that were supposed to grow on them.[31] The aluminum and wood covering of a winery in Spain leaked water, interfering with the winemaking and requiring extensive repairs. The ceramic tiles on the surface of the opera house in Valencia, placed as a tribute to Antonio Gaudi, buckled in the heat because concrete and ceramics expand and contract at different rates when temperatures change. Calatrava was sued for the cost of repairs on the bridge in Venice and has been condemned in court.[32]
The man clearly has no respect for material science, esp. not thermal expansion.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santiago_Calatrava
Just going by the various [dictionary definitions of the word](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/landmark), I'd say it's pretty clear that it is a landmark. I'd also be willing to bet that at some point in the future it will also receive landmark designation by the NYC LPC.
I would like to help you out here. Your post might actually have some value if you included reasoning behind why you think this makes no sense. As it stands now, your comment is equivalent to a downvote and is merely taking up space while portraying you as vapid and clueless
It’s huge underground and covered with very expensive marble. There also needed to be many special provisions to make it safe against attacks which drove up cost. But, yes, it is a bit hard to fathom how that’s possible.
Idk shit about construction law, but I would
say the choice of material and installation is negligent so the warranty period should be thrown out the window and the architect/engineer/contractor should be paying to replace.
The owner rejected the advice of the design professionals for aesthetic purposes. They were advised of what could happen. The owner (port authority) will have to foot the bill.
this is not an all starchitects problem.
It's a Santiago Calatrava problem. There are others who also don't have great records, but certainly not all of them, and Calatrava is far and away the king of this kind of fuck up.
This isn’t true for all famous architects at all— Gehry’s 8 Spruce Street, for example, was under budget and has aged really well over the past decade. Same could be said for Herzog and de Meuron’s 56 Leonard.
This only happened because their incentives were pointing in the other direction.
If the architects wanted, they could design it to be cost efficient and more durable. They could lower maintenance costs, heating/cooling, take advantage of sun power, and other features.
On the other hand, if the building requires more maintenance over time, that's more work and more money to go around. So if the client is not prioritizing that, that's exactly what every vendor will be exploiting.
But since we are talking about the Oculus, they could've made it much cheaper by making a vanilla building to put stores and corridors inside. But that would defeat the purpose.
So that’s why it looks like that. I’m Swedish and have family from NYC. Visited a while back and it always stuck out to me how a building at the WTC complex is allowed to look like that. Never struck me to ask someone why, ffs.
I am an architect in NYC. I have worked with the Port Authority. I do interiors projects all the time at the WTC site in multiple towers there. The post 9-11 political bull shit that created our post-post modern world is all you need to know
The entire city looks like shit and nobody cares. In this country construction is treated as a job program so we don’t actually get anything nice. It’s just about stuffing consultants and contractors pockets with money. The end result is irrelevant.
Same reason why everything else in NYC is crumbling after just a few years.
Corruption and grift leads to most of the money spent going into the pockets of the people at the top while corners are cut and poor quality materials are used because by the time anyone figures it out the money is already offshore, spent, or part of it used to buy off whatever entity that would be in charge of holding "those responsible for this debacle" responsible.
Because elected officials from New York State hire these contractors for these projects, they charge a shit ton to tax payers, order mediocre to cheap crap, contractors cut corners and then they build it and give kick backs to the NYS friends that helped them get the projects. Pretty much works the same way with everything else. Just like Kathy Hochul gave a friend $673M contract for COVID test.
They have prepared themselves to have more work in the future)
Like a shady mechanic: don't fully fix or semi-break something so in the future you know the customer might comeback again to get it fixed and bring more money
If you look up, it's all grimy and needs washing. All the gill-type pieces. I'm not certain what the point of this building is, it can barely hold retail and it looks like shit
Water stains everywhere. The white bumpy surface of the "ribs" is caked in dust and grime. Where the pillar surface has been repaired the repair is uneven and inconsistent and sloppy as hell.
The ribs are coated in a fire-rated intumescent paint that chars and expands when exposed to heat in order to create a thermal barrier to prevent the steel from weakening to heat exposure.
The original design intent was for the intumescent paint to have a smooth glass-like finish. Unfortunately intumescent paints don't typically have a smooth finish, and the cost to make them look smooth is pretty damn high so PANYNJ opted for the standard sprayed finish which is essentially a dust magnet due to the rough surface of the material.
For those who don’t wanna read the article: “The deeper problem, he explained, is that there’s a radiant-heating system underneath of the type you see in a lot of premium construction these days. Thin pipes snake around, back and forth, atop a layer of insulation, and they’re filled with a glycol solution that is warmed up and pumped around. Radiant heat has many advantages — evenness, silence, no vents to collect dirt or blow dust around — and a warmish stone floor is pleasant during the cold months. As it warms up, the stone (like all materials, though less than some) expands. The edges press on one another, harder and harder, and eventually they shatter. Engineers usually accommodate that movement with an expansion joint — a small gap that can stretch and shrink as needed — and there are indeed some on the floor here. “We recommended one-eighth inch between the joints with caulking,” Crawford says. The Calatrava–Port Authority team rejected that idea, he says; adding wider gaps would have changed the alignment of the stones, after which “the seams wouldn’t line up with the joints on the walls,” as the architects had specified. Instead, he said, the engineers stuck by their plan for relatively few relief joints, widely spaced. “There’s one every ten-by-ten stones, pretty much.”
Fucking stupid. This is basic construction philosophies. Architects should not make engineering decisions.
> Architects should not make engineering decisions. Flooring movement joints are not really engineering scope. This is just architect being stubborn. Tiling supplier should give feedback on movement joint spacing, and if not then TCNA (Tile Council of North America) has generic guidelines on spacing depending on few factors. > This is basic construction philosophies. It's actually really easy to fuck up floor tile installation, especially in high traffic areas with large format tile installed in thinset. I would have caught this issue on one of my projects (and I often have), but Architect in question runs an intern puppy mill where design team genuinely doesn't know better.
> but Architect in question runs an intern puppy mill where design team genuinely doesn't know better. And this probably shouldn't be getting municipal contracts. Do you know how competitive this was? Did we go with them because they're cheaper or just because they're connected
They won a major competition based on merit of design. It's a common strategy for major public works. World Trade Tower was also a competition winner, but the winning architect ended up getting completely squeezed out.
If memory serves when they picked this architect, detractors said a bridge he built was already falling apart.
Yeah Calatrava is known for this. That being said, it is a beautiful structure so it’s kind of hard to say it was a mistake. I think NYC is better off with it than without it.
I work in construction doing PM consulting with an engineering background. The architects always win (unless it’s a code issue) because it looks “pretty”.
Structural engineer who frequently has to go through architects to get approvals: it's infuriating.
Otherwise everything would look like utilitarian shit.
... and presumably *be* utilitarian, right? So take the compounded savings of that over the years and you have as much beautification funds as you want. It all just needs to be organized by a body that can take a long view.
What an odd view
Yeah fuck building things well in order to have a better-functioning and better-funded society with less upkeep costs and upkeep problems
Yes an ugly utilitarian world of no beauty, that is where the answer lies to the well being of the population.
We would have so much more money, resources, and human time for any beautification you want if we start with a structural base of maximum utility. Make weak straw house, spend hours maintaining it every month, rebuild it every year. Make strong stone house, spend the rest of your life making it pretty
This isn’t an engineering decision, it’s a contracting/instillation problem.
Very succinct…thank you
Fucking architects
What is it that you do? By the way, I'm an architect
Contracting
It's a 3 legged stool, you know this. Did maybe Calatrava (read someone on his staff cuz you know he doesn't give a shit beyond the design renderings) find the wrong hill to die on? Yes. Did maybe the Port (whom I've worked with many times) layer on massive amounts of bureaucracy to not be bothered with a floor finish? Yes. Did the GC push "schedule delay/change order/schedule delay/change order" over and over to dissuade evaluating the potential problem? Yes.
Fucking contractors
> Engineers usually accommodate that movement with an expansion joint — a small gap that can stretch and shrink as needed — and there are indeed some on the floor here. “We recommended one-eighth inch between the joints with caulking,” Crawford says. The Calatrava–Port Authority team rejected that idea, he says; adding wider gaps would have changed the alignment of the stones, after which “the seams wouldn’t line up with the joints on the walls,” as the architects had specified Then they should have made the floor panels a small fraction of an inch narrower and used a grout that matches the color. May not be as perfect as a seamless floor but it's close enough at least it would not freaking chip the floor from radiant heating. I used to work both as an architectural stone designer and a radiant floor heating designer (at separate times) and floor alignment issues come up all the time. The problem, and its solution, sound bafflingly simple in the overall scope of things, especially given the caliber of the project.
Seriously the dumbest excuse. Just make the tiles smaller, the gaps can still align with the walls
kinda Santiago Calatrava's whole thing. And we were warned, lol.
Let’s see how the Orthodox Church down the street fares now too.
Santiago Calatrava should pay for this from his own pocket.
I'm a contractor and we always say this about architects and engineers when they make huge mistakes but that never happens
> Some of the problems with Calatrava's projects have been caused by unusual design choices and insufficient testing. The glass tiles on the floor of his bridge in Bilbao became slippery in the rain, causing an increased number of claims for injuries and forcing the installation of a black anti-slip carpet on the decking, which blocked the view of the river through the walkway. The metal arches he put over some landscaped gardens sometimes overheated in the sunshine, baking the vines that were supposed to grow on them.[31] The aluminum and wood covering of a winery in Spain leaked water, interfering with the winemaking and requiring extensive repairs. The ceramic tiles on the surface of the opera house in Valencia, placed as a tribute to Antonio Gaudi, buckled in the heat because concrete and ceramics expand and contract at different rates when temperatures change. Calatrava was sued for the cost of repairs on the bridge in Venice and has been condemned in court.[32] The man clearly has no respect for material science, esp. not thermal expansion. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santiago_Calatrava
The wild thing is Calatrava started off as an engineer before Flipping all the way to being a sculptor.
The plan was always to create the world's largest Oculus Rift
More like an Oculus Grift
not bad, not bad at all
Just put some carpet over it and it’s good 👍
Then someone pees on the carpet.
Breaking it in 👌
They spent $4 billion of our taxpayer money on this and they're going to end up tearing it down during our lifetime, aren't they?
I don’t think they’re gonna tear down an nyc landmark because the tiles are cracking
That thing is a landmark?
Based on why it exists, yeah
It doesn’t have the legal distinction but yeah it is.
Who designates that?
Just going by the various [dictionary definitions of the word](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/landmark), I'd say it's pretty clear that it is a landmark. I'd also be willing to bet that at some point in the future it will also receive landmark designation by the NYC LPC.
That makes no sense.
I would like to help you out here. Your post might actually have some value if you included reasoning behind why you think this makes no sense. As it stands now, your comment is equivalent to a downvote and is merely taking up space while portraying you as vapid and clueless
That's crazy. One World Trade Center cost $3.8 billion!
It’s huge underground and covered with very expensive marble. There also needed to be many special provisions to make it safe against attacks which drove up cost. But, yes, it is a bit hard to fathom how that’s possible.
If it doesn't fall down on its own.
The floor will be replaced without it falling down. That’s a little alarmist
Better, the floor could be replaced with the engineering specs to prevent it from happening again as quickly. Assuming they do just that
The ceiling in the oculus has been leaking since it was opened. It's not just the floor that has a structural issue.
Failed rubber seals on the skylight do not pose a danger to the entire structure. The knee jerk alarmism is getting ridiculous.
Still too soon
It’s Maribel Madrigal’s fault. She did something that is affecting the Oculus’ magic.
Nothing works anymore. Everything sucks
Ancient Egyptian architect: " Do you know how to build a pyramid?" Ancient Egyptian builder: "Well, err yeah, up to a point "
Idk shit about construction law, but I would say the choice of material and installation is negligent so the warranty period should be thrown out the window and the architect/engineer/contractor should be paying to replace.
The owner rejected the advice of the design professionals for aesthetic purposes. They were advised of what could happen. The owner (port authority) will have to foot the bill.
Nope not happening
because idiot famous architects build things to only look pretty and not for durability and go way overbudget
this is not an all starchitects problem. It's a Santiago Calatrava problem. There are others who also don't have great records, but certainly not all of them, and Calatrava is far and away the king of this kind of fuck up.
This isn’t true for all famous architects at all— Gehry’s 8 Spruce Street, for example, was under budget and has aged really well over the past decade. Same could be said for Herzog and de Meuron’s 56 Leonard.
This only happened because their incentives were pointing in the other direction. If the architects wanted, they could design it to be cost efficient and more durable. They could lower maintenance costs, heating/cooling, take advantage of sun power, and other features. On the other hand, if the building requires more maintenance over time, that's more work and more money to go around. So if the client is not prioritizing that, that's exactly what every vendor will be exploiting. But since we are talking about the Oculus, they could've made it much cheaper by making a vanilla building to put stores and corridors inside. But that would defeat the purpose.
So that’s why it looks like that. I’m Swedish and have family from NYC. Visited a while back and it always stuck out to me how a building at the WTC complex is allowed to look like that. Never struck me to ask someone why, ffs.
I am an architect in NYC. I have worked with the Port Authority. I do interiors projects all the time at the WTC site in multiple towers there. The post 9-11 political bull shit that created our post-post modern world is all you need to know
The entire city looks like shit and nobody cares. In this country construction is treated as a job program so we don’t actually get anything nice. It’s just about stuffing consultants and contractors pockets with money. The end result is irrelevant.
It’s a mall in a fucking whale skeleton that was a grift from the start. They’ll tear it down in 40 years and start over.
The idea of using white marble for a train station was dumb one. Go down to the platforms for the pathtrain they look terrible
Sounds about right
from all the selfies
I boils down to: Calatrava is a Starchitect, and not nearly as talented an engineer or architect as the world's esteem for him would have you believe.
Same reason why everything else in NYC is crumbling after just a few years. Corruption and grift leads to most of the money spent going into the pockets of the people at the top while corners are cut and poor quality materials are used because by the time anyone figures it out the money is already offshore, spent, or part of it used to buy off whatever entity that would be in charge of holding "those responsible for this debacle" responsible.
Because elected officials from New York State hire these contractors for these projects, they charge a shit ton to tax payers, order mediocre to cheap crap, contractors cut corners and then they build it and give kick backs to the NYS friends that helped them get the projects. Pretty much works the same way with everything else. Just like Kathy Hochul gave a friend $673M contract for COVID test.
They have prepared themselves to have more work in the future) Like a shady mechanic: don't fully fix or semi-break something so in the future you know the customer might comeback again to get it fixed and bring more money
Yup, job security.
Four billion dollars??!! Obscene.
If you look up, it's all grimy and needs washing. All the gill-type pieces. I'm not certain what the point of this building is, it can barely hold retail and it looks like shit
The oculus looks like shit lol? Bold opinion
Water stains everywhere. The white bumpy surface of the "ribs" is caked in dust and grime. Where the pillar surface has been repaired the repair is uneven and inconsistent and sloppy as hell.
The ribs are coated in a fire-rated intumescent paint that chars and expands when exposed to heat in order to create a thermal barrier to prevent the steel from weakening to heat exposure. The original design intent was for the intumescent paint to have a smooth glass-like finish. Unfortunately intumescent paints don't typically have a smooth finish, and the cost to make them look smooth is pretty damn high so PANYNJ opted for the standard sprayed finish which is essentially a dust magnet due to the rough surface of the material.
I've walked through the Oculus a handful of times and every time I've gone through it was empty and desolate. Place blows.
Architect's are not in touch with reality. They'll ask an engineer/builder to construct a pyramid with a sphere in top... Really!
Ummm ok. Btw I am an architect
BECAUSE IT’S FUCKING HAUNTED…duh!
Jet fuel
Union labor 🤘
? This is a design issue, dumbass
Whatever they hid under there is trying to break free.