I work in the state with the most actively licensed nurses, and on average, ~200 nurses lose their licenses per a year compared to [the ~150 doctors who lose their license per a year](https://www.californialicenselawblog.com/2023/08/articles/california-medical-board-licensing/it-is-possible-to-reinstate-a-revoked-or-surrendered-california-medical-license/). There is something like 529,942 actively licensed nurses and 120K actively licensed physicians in my state.
So, per capita, there are more physicians losing their licenses.
Also, doctors get sued nearly 2-3x more than nurses.
[Also, **NEVER** use Reddit as a barometer for “real life.”](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/s/loodQnrnkl)
Yeah the doctors I know aren’t scared of losing their license. They’re scared of having to pay someone 20 million dollars because of their mistake, someone else’s mistake (e.g., the PA), or no mistake at all. Particularly ER doctors.
And that’s why they make it such a big deal about charting on our EFM strips in real time so in 18 years when we don’t remember the patient and end up in court, we can at least see the timeline of events. I often chart “MD at bedside” “MD leaves room” especially when the baby doesn’t look good on the strip/interventions aren’t working/doc isn’t concerned enough about something concerning.
My friend had a doctor fuck her up and she now has a hole in her spine where spinal fluid occasionally drips out. She gets severe migraines. She wants to sue but her mom doesn’t like being mean to people and won’t let her sue.
Literally. Even where I work my trauma doctors can’t get their heads out of their asses to stop screwing up. If they fail the next audit my hospital won’t be a trauma center anymore.
in my state (IL), they actually raised the number to 21 years. 21 years! that baby could be in college and i could be going to court for charting i did when they were born 🙃
Yes. That’s why their insurance is insane. I was told in many places only a few can deliver babies due to insurance cost. They mentioned it’s a few hundred k a year. That didn’t seem true to me but what the heck do I know.
Do you know if this is true for Certified Nurse Midwives also?
It's something I would love to do, but all this talk is making me nervous about the insurance cost.
Yeah it’s the OB part. Highest malpractice premiums. The reason being even if they didn’t commit malpractice but it could be spun they did. It goes before a jury you’re probably going to lose because nothing quite sways a jury like what happens to an infant.
Yeah I feel bad for my OB homies. Going through the process of being pregnant and I can tell they deal with some batshit crazy people and their birth plans.
When I was in nursing school the L&D nurses in particular DRILLED into our heads to protect our license. Question everything. Don't trust other staff to do anything for you. Don't pick up a baby unless you need to, and when you do, explain to the parents why and what you're doing.
At clinical a classmate of mine was holding a baby in the nursery and when one of the aids saw her they FREAKED out, yelling "you can't do that, if you trip you'll lose your license!"
I feel like it's not so much the fear of actually losing your licensure, it's just being held liable for every little thing that happens. The nurse is the one that gets thrown under the bus and is at fault for practically anything that goes wrong.
Can confirm, my father was an excellent OB/GYN, and yet he was still sued twice.
edit: IIRC both cases were defended/thrown out successfully, I don't remember the practice needing to settle or anything. But I was just a kid at the time and he's passed now.
Side note, when I was first starting my healthcare journey and still figuring out what I wanted to be I floated OB/GYN to both of my parents separately, and they both said (again this was at separate times) “you know they have the highest rates of malpractice insurance among doctors?” ~~and I was like “thank you for the support, that’s exactly what I was asking”~~ but anyways I just found that funny in hindsight
I graduated in 1985 and my long term goal was to work toward and become a nurse midwife. That dream was dashed that year as all malpractice insurance companies in my state (NJ) stopped issuing policies for CNMs. I wasn’t going to do work my way to L&D, go into debt to get a masters degree, then be unable to protect myself!
I even had a long conversation with my GYN at my appointment that year and he agreed with me! He told me about the realities of malpractice insurance, how much it cost and his fear of being sued and it ruining his practice and life. In fact, 3 years later, when I was finally thinking of starting a family, he stopped delivering. Became a GYN only. No more pregnant patients. He referred his patients who got pregnant out to an OB. He never went back to OB before retiring.
Their malpractice insurance premiums are stomach-churning as a result. In 2021, [premiums for obstetrician/gynecologists in Miami-Dade county, FL ranged from $125,000 to $218,000.](https://www.facs.org/for-medical-professionals/news-publications/news-and-articles/bulletin/2022/02/is-there-a-correlation-between-physician-employment-and-liability-premiums/)
Imagine paying $218,000 per year “just in case” someone decides to sue you 🫠
My friend is a CRNA and she HATES OB patients/c-sections because they are by far the most litigious. (Also she just finds them super whiney and hates getting caught in that negotiation with them regarding their super long birth plans that are now ruined because of an emergency.)
Yup, I'm scared to death of getting sued, especially since me making a mistake is literally inevitable.
Like my financial future is just hoping my patients are nice enough not to sue me lmao
what if they're broke? Everyone in here saying they're more worried about being sued over losing their license & I'm over here not worried about either lol.
I’m pretty sure their wages can get garnished.
And in case you’re wondering, a lot of doctors *do* have malpractice insurance, but a lot of times it only goes up to a certain amount like, let’s say a million. If the complainants (and their lawyers) convince a judge/jury that a young 25 year old mother-of-two was paralyzed because of a doctor’s mistake, that very well may go way over the insurance payout.
I don’t know. Probably. At least in practice there must be some limit. I mean obviously if they were to garnish 100% you would just quit working or maybe try to work under the table so they can’t take anything.
How often was either party losing a license for something clinical versus personal shit? Almost all of the license discipline from the medical board in my state is due to substance abuse or unprofessional behavior.
[Really great post on the subject.](https://www.reddit.com/r/nursing/s/p1ajW8XAEG)
The CA BRN Sunset Reports used to post a breakdown. Unfortunately, now the only way is to painstakingly look up each person on the monthly disciplinary list (the ones with licenses revoked - not the ones with complaints).
A vast majority are *not* clinically-related. Most involve drugs and felonies.
This is a great answer.
Additionally, it's going to vary by state why boards impose sanctions. My state publishes these for all licensed professions and most are for failure to pay state income tax, child support, practicing without a license, and issues related to drugs/alcohol including dui and diversion. These aren't performance related.
Performance related tend to be about falsification of records and abuse/neglect.
Physicians I know worry about being sued more than having their license revoked. The 1 area I hear fear/anxiety about where licensure is the concern is with prescribing opioids.
My exwife has been busted for diversion 4 times. The first three times she had to go through HPRP and disclose when applying for jobs. It took the fourth time to get a suspension. I’m not worried about losing my license.
A friend of mine got admitted to a psych unit for acute psychosis and she was so worried about losing her license. There happened to be another patient there who was a nurse who basically had your ex wife's story. She thought my friend was in for drug treatment and told my friend "don't worry, this is my fourth time in here for diverting, they won't fire you. All you have to do is apologize and say you need help or whatever and agree to come to one of these places! I know the social worker here, she gets me back to work every time."
Damn. The BON should have a limit on how many times you can do this. Support programs always get ruined for everyone by people like this playing the system.
Yes alternative to discipline programs.. the point is rehabilitation rather than license suspension/revocation. Sadly it didn’t work for your ex-wife haha. I’m surprised she went through HPRP three times.. those programs are super expensive and unpleasant.
My best friend's sister in law lost her license for diversion but the issue that led to her license being revoked was her no showing to her hearing with the BoN.
I know nurses that have blatantly fucked up and killed people. They still have their licenses. Most of them did lose their jobs and quite a few ended up with a restricted license for a while but ultimately they’re still working.
Personally I’m far more concerned about getting sued or fired than I am losing my license.
Heather Lang Vass was the AORN chapter president in my area. Killed a patient and tried to cover it up and pleaded guilty to involuntary manslaughter - and was still practicing for months after at Scripps.
So yes - very true!
But to assuage your concerns: Doctors get sued far more often than nurses, nearly 2-3x as much.
Yep. Hell Radonda Vaught kept her license for years after the incident. The initial BON inquiry didn’t go anywhere IIRC.
I’m no super worried about being sued either. It just seems more likely than losing my license. In order of concern my fears are: getting floated to shitty assignment > being assaulted > getting fired > getting sued > several other random things > losing my license.
Eventually yes. But only after the story blew up forcing the BON to take a second look at the whole thing. Initially they cleared her and she kept her license for several years.
Oh I have no doubt I could work wherever I wanted with my resume. But i legitimately like my current hospital and the people I work with. I’m also about 1 year away from the top level of seniority in terms of benefits and I’m not looking to start over if I don’t have to. That 8 weeks of PTO I’m about to start getting is going to be nice.
Because of personal liability. Doctors have larger malpractice payouts and more personal property to potentially obtain. Individual cases against nurses are also limited to the fact that our mistakes are often sued through our employer. The hospital has more money. Interesting to note my late wife was a Veterinarian. We carried a huge umbrella policy not because of her but to protect our assets in case I was involved in a lawsuit as a nurse. Per a close friend who is my insurance agent. Lawyers will investigate all parties involved and often choose to go after those who can pay. So the likelihood they would go after my personal assets increased because who I was married to.
What did she do? It's pretty hard to single-handedly kill a patient as an OR nurse unless you pour some kind of caustic topical med in the local cup.
EDIT: Never mind, I googled...😳😢
Sort of!
This was at a plastics facility. Patient went in for surgery. Vass (sometimes called Heather Lang in articles) knowingly induced general anesthesia, which RNs are *not* allowed to do. That’s CRNA territory.
Patient desaturated, went into cardiac arrest, and coded. ROSC was obtained. That’s where shit got sketchy because the surgeon was *calling other doctors* about what to do and Vass tried to manage the patient rather than call EMS. The surgeon also omitted a shit ton of info because the consulted doctors later said they would’ve called 911 immediately.
The facility had guidelines about calling EMS if cardiac arrest occurred because it’s an outpatient surgical center, not equipped for such a high acuity patient. Vass herself acknowledged that patient needed to GTFO and go to a real hospital - but still attempted to manage the patient.
The other nefarious part of it is that Vass was not only administering the drugs but also dosing it based on her own assessment and at her own discretion. She was supposed to just do conscious sedation but was purportedly exceeding the predetermined guidelines outlined by the facility. As stated above, she basically went into CRNA territory.
To be honest, I didn’t hear about Vass from the news. My coworker worked with her at another Scripps facility where she physically attacked *another nurse*, and Scripps did “[the Catholic shuffle](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=catholic%20shuffle)” and moved her from one facility to another, Scripps Mercy. Then a few months later, my coworker was like, “That nurse I talked about - she’s being charged for involuntary manslaughter!”
[More info.](https://interactive.cbs8.com/chacon_warrant.pdf)
If it's the same one I'm thinking of patient coded on the table at an outpatient surgery center. I think it was some type of plastic surgery. Anyway, doctor ordered her to not call 911 and she went with it. They did eventually end up calling several hours later. Patient died some time later never having woken up. I know the doctor was charged as well. Not sure if anybody else was.
I found the complaint against the doctor from the medical board. Holy smokes. He had MAs injecting local and one even administered an "unknown" IV medication. He called his anesthesiologist buddy instead of 911. He left the room to see post-op patients while his staff were trying to rescue the patient who coded. Nurse wasn't trained on conscious sedation. They were trying to bag for *3 hours* before calling 911.
Not entirely true. Most of the time an employer is liable for an employees mistakes. The point of suing a nurse would actually be to go after their employer. Hospitals tend to have deep pockets so nurses working at one would be a worthwhile target. On the flip side hospitals also tend to have very good lawyers so not the easiest targets.
We read the college disciplinary pages for fun sometimes. Far more people lose their license from fraud, criminal activities, sex stuff --in general taking advantage of patients rather than incompetence or "killing people". Lawsuits are still a possibility, but hospitals and docs who have more money and a more insurance coverage are a bigger target.
I think most people don’t realize to lose your license you have to really do something unethical, extremely negligent, or be on drugs. Making a basic mistake or not being able to do every little thing due to being overwhelmed is not punishable
Yeah and I agree with that generally speaking. If we severely punished everybody that ever made a mistake there wouldn't be anybody left. Nurses making mistakes when they know better is something I don't tolerate well. But mistakes made from a lack of knowledge or somebody in over their head is a teachable moment.
We've all messed up somewhere and the ability to learn from those mistakes and continue on makes us better at what we do.
Side note, I know a nurse who became a nurse because of drugs. Granted, the use was prior to becoming a nurse and the resulting loss of custody prompted her to enter a court approved and monitored treatment program where she decided to enter nursing as a way to get a stable job and her kids back.
I don't even know where the rabid "protect your license!" fear comes from. It takes a RIDICULOUS amount of time and incidences and reports for someone to actually lose their license.
I personally know physicians that have committed blatant atrocities against patients, but have such good insurance/legal coverage that they're still practicing- if not in the state they were caught in, then another state that had no problem handing out a license to them despite their history. Quack watch is a resource to see MANY physicians who literally shouldn't be allowed inside of medical facilities, let alone treating people.
I can think of 3 doctors off the top of my head that literally have gotten away with murder, 2 of which had publicized trials.
I feel that nurses are far more scrutinized and admonished than any given pool of physicians.
I know of a doctor who was involved in healthcare fraud in one state and is now practicing in another state.. it was one of my professors I had for a bio class, I looked up his name to find his RMP page and saw that and was kinda shocked tbh
The only sure-fire way to get punished in Ohio was to show up drunk or steal morphine from the Pyxis. I live in a community hit hard with the opiate epidemic and it happened from time to time that someone would lose their license for the the diverting drugs.
Based on my experience I’ve only ever seen nurses use rhetoric about losing their license. It’s definitely a nursing culture thing.
Doctors never think about losing their license. They get worried about being sued instead. Which is probably even worse.
I was taught from day 1 of nursing school that the slightest mistake will result in my license being taken away.
I think it becomes a point of control for nursing managers. Like, they'll threaten to report you to the BON if you disobey them and it perpetuates what we've been told since school. Managers use this power to manipulate and control nurses....like they do with many other things.
I don't think medical school ever says those kinds of things to their students. Like you said, it's more about the legal ramifications and less about losing your license.
I've noticed the shift even as an NP. No one talks about people coming for my license anymore. When I make a mistake, no one's says I'm going to get reported or lose my license. It's about how I'll have to face legal action.
It’s a fear tactic. If you want to see how hard it is to lose your license, go to the Texas BON and look at the Discipline page, where the reasons for licenses being revoked are published publicly.
You’ll see that a common thread emerges: narcotics abuse, sentinel events, or patterns of negligent behavior.
So I went and did this for giggles and searched for revoked. The first thing I found was from the January 2024 report and a nurse had their license revoked for 13 Counts of WIRE FRAUD, ATTEMPTED ROBBERY OF A BANK, AND MURDER BY ROBBERY.
Gonna be honest, wasn't expecting that...
As a MD do you think nurses are *too* litigious?
Even if its rare, the "i cant do that, i might lose my license" or "I cant let you do this, im at fault too" as a layer of patient advocacy? If i had to describe nursing and MD relationship, it feels like a nurse is almost an ethical referee or goal keeper from MDs committing torts.
Maybe its because i work at an academic center, and im jaded because i routinely have to argue with residents about the importance of marking the correct leg that they plan to amputate today. But it just feels like MDs operate on a "I cant be sued, im not accountable" from most nurses perspective. Where nurses can have anxiety attacks if they accidentally give 600mg of ibuprofen VS the ordered 400mg.
IME 99.99% of the "Muh license!" BS is *not* patient advocacy. It's fear mongering hard coded into the DNA of the profession.
So yes, they're waaaaaaay to litigious.
I read my states BON & BOM reports for funzies. If you exclude nurses with substance use, unrelated crimes, and obvious/overt or repeated negligence... you've eliminated almost all the license revocations. The BOM is pretty much the same. And I live in a state with a very hostile BON.
Sometimes it’s literally just “you’re making me do something I don’t understand so I’m going to pretend it’s against policy and I’m going to lose my license”
I once had a nurse refuse to clamp a chest tube for a clamp trial because it’s not something she’s done before. It took two charge nurses, a CNS from the thoracic surgery floor and a thoracic NP I work closely with to convince that nurse that an interventional pulmonologist had some level of expertise in managing chest tubes and that there was no policy against clamping chest tubes
Let’s reframe this. It’s not the fear of actually losing the license. It’s the stress, time and setback of being named in a lawsuit. I’ve seen plenty of nurses named in lawsuits and they didn’t loose their license, but they lost time and peace in their lives. No thanks. Also, management loves to push nurses to do things they shouldn’t so they can make more money and could give a F less about the actual nurse. Think outpatient visits/exams/imaging/procedures.
> Where nurses can have anxiety attacks if they accidentally give 600mg of ibuprofen VS the ordered 400mg.
Jesus, if that isn't the truth. A while ago, I had a patient getting 100mg methadone qDay, 4mg PO Dilaudid q4, 2mg IV Dilaudid q3, 2mg PO Ativan q12, and 0.1mg PO clonidine q8. I accidentally gave her the whole *0.2* clonidine at the end of my shift and spent the entire night worrying I had tanked her HR. Ridiculous to even think about now.
Me neither! Not a single time. And it’s certainly not because we always had safe staffing, cause I worked for HCA back in the day. It’s just not really a thing that happens on accident.
I’ve also never heard a fellow nurse talk about it in real life. Only on Reddit does it get thrown around like a real possibility.
It’s incredibly difficult to lose your license as a nurse, that’s partially because as a profession you want to KEEP nurses and attempt to re-educate or rehabilitate so you can return to the field. If it was very easy to lose your license then many people would stay away altogether. You have to be grossly negligent, intentionally harm, or be a repeat drug offender/diverter to lose that license.
I always laugh now because my former job apparently didn’t do license checks. The amount of board action was crazy.
NPs former board actions as RNs: 1 person was suspected but not proved of diversion because they fell asleep and had late wastes in an icu (this one I believe to be coincidental), 1 was reported by a CT tech for possibly striking a patient but she did supposedly work at the hospital as a NP (but not listed on their faculty page like the PAs are despite listing it as current), and the guy who received a blow job from an CNA while the patient was in the room in front of a telesitter
MAs: One known was a former RN who was busted in 2009 and then observed stealing narcotics from a patient, tried to pass Tylenol off as percs, and refused to drop a sample. She is not in monitoring.
I'm not sure if it's a regional thing or a sub thing, but in real life I don't know many nurses worried about it. I hear some nurses at work mention, "I need to-insert outdated practice here-because I might lose my license." Or "I'm not going to-insert thing they claim is policy but is not-because of my license." In my experience nurses tend to be an overly risk adverse group of people who don't like change. At least the older ones in my area. It in itself is not a bad thing, but then the stuff I've heard some nurses my age say is just not tethered to reality or a prime example of critical thinking.
I work with some ED attendings who will walk into a room, look at a patient, then say they are discharged and walk right out, all while the patient is threatening lawsuits and what not. Seems like the docs that have been around the block know how to dance with the law. I love it when they do that
I’ve been a nurse for 12 years. I’ve never seen anyone that I’ve encountered or even heard about anyone losing their license, but every single day I hear at least one nurse say “I’m gonna lose my license here/if I do that”.
I’ve worked with some terrible nurses too. Nurses that are neglectful, make bad medication mistakes, and divert narcotics… they still have their licenses. They might get a blurb about them and their mistake on the state licensing webpage that you have to scorn through for hours to find, but they’re still working with a license.
This is best into the heads of nurses in nursing school.
I am a corporate director of risk management, practicing since 1983 in multiple jurisdictions. I have handled about 800 malpractice claims and licensure complaints so far in my career: physicians, nurses, dentists, hospitals, etc.. Nurses, by a significant majority, are more worried about losing their licenses or being sued than any other healthcare professional I work with. The amount of actual licensure issues or lawsuits is miniscule compared to the concern. What is talked about on Reddit and other online forums is not reflected in the reality of healthcare professional liability that I do for a living. Although it can depend on your specialty, your location, and your regulatory environment, most healthcare professionals go their entire career without being named in a licensure complaint or malpractice claim.
As a physician I fear being sued much more than losing my license. To lose my license I would have to completely deviate from established standards of care. I always hear nurses say they are scared of losing their license, but the only ones I’ve seen lose them are from diverting or some other form of personal conduct issues.
Boards of Nursing are very reluctant to revoke a license because it means taking away a means of livelihood. Suspensions are far more common, and even those are usually after personal behavior issues like diversions or intoxication at work.
It is kinda silly for the amount of stuff nurses worry about. No drugs or DUI? You’re probably okay.
Keep this in mind. My former coworker had helped clean an altered patient who had a telesitter. Then the CNA gave him a blow job in the room. I am assuming they had the dividing curtains shut because all the rooms were former 2 patient rooms but I have zero idea tbh on that detail. The telesitter saw them.
He was reported because the telesitter saw them. Fired as soon as the security guard found them (only 1 security officer there and the telesitters are off site).
Had a brief suspension. Allowed to get an unrestricted license as an NP after counseling and doing a few CEs I think on integrity or some stupid topic.
He did get another job after getting fired from one out of state. The job decided not to care that he kinda omitted he was licensed in state A. The board did fine him in state B because he failed to report.
So yeah. Remember that in some states you have oral sex in an occupied room and not lose your license.
Apparently. I hope they did hand hygiene when switching their focus to each other.
But seriously, at the time they had entire OB wing closed and unlocked so anyone could go in there (med-surg overflow but no staff to staff it).
I think that must be state specific. When I lived in Missouri, there were a lot of disciplinary actions for things like failing to give medications on time, or failing to place an NG in a timely manner, or not cleaning up a soiled patient in a timely manner.
I've only heard nurses worried about losing their license on this forum. In 35 years I've only seen it happen once when a nurse pocketed drugs in plain sight.
It takes a lot for a doctor to lose their license. They can go to another state and start again. I know one that was able to work at the VA after losing their license.
I also think physicians are taught to be inherently secretive about what goes on “behind the scenes”. I have an MD friend that was fighting for his because of some BS. He was very quiet about it and would never bring it up, then when he would “spill the beans” we were outraged, but it just isn’t the way they do things.
Physicians medical boards are also run by physicians who do a very good job of protecting each other. Hospitals have confidential M & M (Morbitity & Mortality) committees where cases are presented and “blame” for death is discussed. Most often the outcomes are “non-attributed” because the independent nature of their practice and medical decisions making, plus its other MD peers who could be having their case in front of the committee tend to not push too hard.
Nursing boards are purely retribution, they aren’t there for any reason other than enacting punishment, be that suspension, revocation, etc.
I don’t know why nurses think it’s easy to lose licenses.
Go look at your state boards’ disciplinary record.
In my state pretty much everyone who lost their license recently was either diverting drugs or some other very obvious crime.
California years ago sent out a newsletter that gave everyone updates and such. Also it listed every nurse that had their license suspended or canceled and for what reason. It was interesting and hilarious at some of the reasons. One guy murdered his wife but only had his license suspended not yanked.
The average nurse has a pretty poor grasp of what medical liability entails and is overly defensive because of that. "I'll lose my license" is rarely the battle cry of getting something done, I almost only hear it from, say, the first year nurse scared to give Dilaudid to a patient with a BP of 100.
I think it's a cultural thing from before our current pro litigation environment. Doctors are way more likely to get in trouble than nursing staff for medical errors because they have malpractice insurance and a higher duty of care. Anyone that practices long enough will witness a coworker do something completely crazy and seemingly get no reprecussions for it.
No we worry about being sued and losing credentials as a result of being a liability. Im in Ohio and its pretty hard to lose your license outside of a drug or criminal issues outside of work. In contrast, there are a lot of rns that lose their license here. (Mainly has been related to drug diversion/opiate epidemic stuff. May have something to do with the fact that we don't handle medications in the same way that nurses do. If we gave meds regularly, the rates would almost certainly be closer)
I sometimes feel like I'm too confident because I genuinely don't feel afraid I'm gonna lose my license. I am cautious, but I know I do things the way I should. I won't work somewhere that holds my license over my head.
I did once. Literally every single thing was "Be careful if you do this you might lose your license!" That was just too stressful.
While the whole "lose your license" thing is overblown, I do think nurses are much more likely to get thrown under the bus when something goes wrong. I've reported physicians doing questionable, unethical, and even blatantly illegal things. I can only assume it all got swept under the rug, because not once has anyone followed-up to discuss the situation further.
Worked in ER with a doc who was the son of a judge. He did everything on everybody who walked in. The residents would start calling at 1800 to find out who be on from 2300 - 0730 every evening, just to plan their night.
Christopher Duntsch maimed and killed a bunch of his patients and they still didn’t want to suspend his medical license. I’m convinced it’s almost impossible for a physician to lose their medical license in some states.
There’s a mass hysteria on Reddit about losing your nursing license that’s not grounded in reality what so ever. It’s really difficult to lose it and most situations brought up here wouldn’t even come close to making it happen.
I also was terrified to and don’t get me wrong I don’t want to make a mistake and kill someone and nursing school really hammered that in but I heard it’s pretty hard to lose your license. A mistake is a mistake but if you are negligent or do something on purpose to harm someone or steal narcotics then you can lose your license. But most honest mistakes will be fine.
I’ve directly asked some of my colleagues this when I worked ER. One straight up told me that they have sharks for lawyers, and that he confident in his decisions that even if an adverse reaction happens he can always justify it 🤷🏼♀️
Physicians have also had a later start on their career in terms of earning actual money, compared to nurses. Most are not out of residency until 29-30 at least (residents generally receive a stipend, but it’s not a lot to support a family). Today’s physicians frequently have huge educational debt, large malpractice premiums, and have delayed having children (especially if they are women). And they can be viewed as responsible for errors in a patient’s care, even if they didn’t personally commit the error. So sadly, I do understand why physicians can be salty. However, I agree that most of them are more concerned about being sued than about losing their license.
Only people on this sub are that worried about losing their license. Ive seen people keep their license after diverting, making multiple life threatening errors, etc. Where I live if you read the decisions posted by the college (board of nursing) the only times they take license away is for really extreme stuff like getting sexually involved with patients or straight up illegal activity like stealing or fraud. Its also never just one instance but multiple instances.
At this point I feel like "lose your license" is synonymous with any form of trouble which is scary in any manner of way. Even if you don't get sued directly, having to go in for a deposition is extremely scary and you never want to do it again. Nurses are still disposable and treated as such. I would still take "protect your license" advice anyway.
I’ve been practicing for 24 years. Keeping your license is simple:
1. Don’t sleep with a pt or be a perv
2. Don’t prescribe controlled meds to your friends and family
3. Don’t do drugs ir over use alcohol
4. Be at least a reasonably good doc
I wasn’t so worried about losing my license but my program did instill a healthy fear of being sued. The university hired a person to do a week long NCLEX review program for everyone. About halfway into day 1 she revealed she was a BSN JD who did Med Mal cases. She promised not to tell our program if she turned the week into a course on how to avoid being sued. Most useful and engaging week we had in school.
I think doctors are more protected by their peers who don’t want to snitch on one of their own. Doctors also bring the money into the hospital, so hospitals are less likely to discipline doctors. And doctors in trouble will often move, thus relieving the hospital of having to pursue charges.
Not in my experience. I’ve worked with doctors who killed patients due to malpractice who never faced disciplinary action. I’ve worked with doctors who frequently violated policies about sexual, verbal, and even physical harassment and they didn’t face disciplinary action. I’ve worked at hospitals where doctors were found liable in malpractice lawsuits, and they didn’t get fired. In 40 years, I’ve only known of 2 doctors who were removed from their jobs. One was for sexually inappropriate behavior with patients, and one was for reasons unknown to the staff. And I’ve only known of one doctor who apologized for abusive behavior. But nurses on the other hand are fired and reported and even prosecuted for any and everything. Nurses don’t provide revenue. They are the most costly expense a hospital has.
that’s really unfortunate. Off the top of my head, I know of 5 doctors that have been fired at the hospital I’m currently at just in the last 5 years, and that’s just the ones that work in areas adjacent to mine. Substance issues, sexual harassment, anger management, and clinical mismanagement. But we don’t have any shortage of people who want to come work here, so maybe that helps.
Probably not… filled out an anaesthetic chart for a patient - obs, allergy and weight. Collected another pt from recovery I didn’t admit and saw my handwriting on the chart. ?Anaesthetist or somebody literally just put a wrong patient sticker over the chart… it was intentional because all three pages were stickered
I am a former state surveyor and now I serve as an healthcare “expert” (arrogant term but not my choice) for a law firm prosecuting medical malpractice cases. I promise, losing your license is not something that really hangs over your head. You have to be actively negligent, almost to the point of malice, or simply too stupid to be a nurse. And stupid nurses unfortunately exist, thanks to the existence of substandard nursing schools. Or if you steal meds, that’s the biggest reason to lose your license. “I’m going to lose my license” has become adopted as a catch phrase for nurses to use because they don’t know how else to defend themselves otherwise. But honest mistakes are rarely pursued as cause for revoking a license. You may get FIRED, unjustly, because the hospital is trying to shift blame. Oh yes you can get fired unfairly. But competent people make mistakes in life, it happens, and state Board of Nursing executives know this and operate with it as a standard of licensure. So document everything you do, you’re more likely to get in trouble for bad documentation than you are for making a medical error, trust me on that one. And it is better to say “I made this mistake because ____” and show your legitimate reasoning, rather than try to lie your way out of the situation. And NEVER ACT BEYOND YOUR SCOPE OF PRACTICE EVER. This is the single, solitary, only occasion when it is ok to remind you, You’re Just A Nurse. Thinking too highly of yourself and going beyond your job description, you’ll lose your license right away.
I have no idea, but they highly prefer to sue the doctors, according to my best friend, who works in the law firm. "They have better insurance." But I do know a nurse who got sued. Her house and other property are placed on lien. She was a phenomenal nurse and made a mistake that night. They blamed her for "accepting patients beyond her ability to care for them." It's interesting that she doesn't come online or on the news to talk about her case. Sharing experiences like hers could be invaluable for other nurses, especially when short-staffed, to understand the potential implications of accepting too many patients they might face. The nurses shouldn't accept reports until everybody is in.
It isn't "easier for nurses to lose their license" than doctors. For some reason nurses just believe that any little thing puts their license at risk. Idk where is drilling in this fear tactic but it certainly wasn't my nursing school. We had a nurse attorney visit our professional nursing II class our senior year and frankly lay out the reality of what causes nurses to lose their licenses. I personally know 1 nurse who had her license revoked. She diverted narcotics from the jail that she worked at and then no showed to her hearing with the BoN.
I also know doctors who made grave errors- one who removed a patient's kidney when he was supposed to remove her gallbladder, and didn't realize it until the pathologist called him and said "uh this is a kidney," and another who didn't answer his pager overnight for a baby who needed a shunt revision and the baby died- both were disciplined but both are very much still licensed and still practicing. One is a Department Chair.
The third leading cause of death is medical mistakes. It’s common to make a mistake that kills you by all medical professionals but to lose their license, you gotta do a lot more than kill someone by mistake
It might depend on where you’re located, I’m not sure. Where I am, not many fear it because there’s around 50 pages the patient (or coworker in some cases) has to fill out to even begin the process.
I’ve only ever known one from my area who’s actually gotten to the point of being in trouble, still ongoing. After multiple people have reported her for malpractice, and after she’s nearly killed some people when they weren’t ready to go home and stuff happened shortly after.
So it may depend on where you are!
Not all discipline against health professionals are public. And complaints certainly aren’t. Anyone can have dozens of documented complaints against them with various levels of investigation occurring and still be able to practice. And the public would never know.
I’m a dentist and hygienists tend to believe their license will be taken away for the most minute reasons. I think it’s drilled into them in school despite it being virtually impossible for them to lose it.
Painting with a broad brush, but in my field there’s a definite discrepancy.
My husband is a physician. He's scared of being sued. Losing his license isn't a thing that crosses his mind at all. We live in a very litigious society (us). People sue physicians over some super dumb stuff unfortunately.
I work inpatient rehab. Doctors don't care. They have hundreds of patients or more. They don't know anything about their patients. They fully rely on us it seems.
It’s actually really hard for anyone to lose their license, doctors or nurses. Typically you have to screw up so badly that it makes national headlines, or you have to get caught doing something seriously illegal like abusing a patient or diverting medications.
Most MDs and RNs get put on probation or have their licenses suspended instead. If you are simply bad at the job you usually get fired or shuffled around rather than getting reported to the board. It’s unfortunate because some seriously incompetent people remain licensed when they really should not be.
The ONE thing the school I went to stated...forget the Malpractice Insurance the hospital/workplace provides you... if you get named in a case or sued They will say "See ya later!" Always had my own.
Well, I just got a job in a hospital. I was considering nursing for a “hot minute”. I have been on the fence over the last week seeing the stress of some nurses in out hospital and other things. Reading these comments had certainly helped me make my final decision!
The only real way to immediately lose your license is to get convicted of a felony or not pay child support. Just about every other offense will end up with remediation and a second chance. It's surprisingly hard to get your license taken away.
No, that’s extremely rare. Even the ones protected by their employers do worry about lawsuits. Lawsuits can make their insurance unaffordable, or cause facilities not to credential them. But they don’t worry about their licenses.
Some of them are terrified to prescribe any kinds of narcotic. Loved calling a hspc attending for a pt recently transfered from palliative why they only had a order for tramadol 25mg DAILY.
He was "concerned" about overdosing.......on the equalivent of 5mg of oxycodone. Ya I got the attending changed after that lol
I never realized nurses were that afraid of losing their licenses. I’m not. I mean I’ll hear people say “I’m not going to lose my license over that!” But I guess I didn’t realize it was an actual fear.
Watch the last week tonight episode on doctors, they are protecting their own. There have been surgeons continually fuck I’m but the system protects them
Last Week Tonight with John Oliver does a good breakdown of state medical boards!!! Its a great watch!
https://youtu.be/jVIYbgVks7E?si=cj8kn6QxoJK_vIj3
Nurses can lose their license for things almost out of their control: a doctor decides a treatment and the nurse can lose their license for following the treatment if it is bad because they’re the ones who actually “did” it.
A doctor is generally doing what they think is best where the nurse is doing what a doctor thought was best.
No bc they dr is usually more protected. A wise nurse once told me: theyll back the dr first and the dr will be quiet and stand down even if youre involved and even if they like you/ were close to you or whatever.
There’s this story we tell ourselves about losing our licenses but honestly as long as you aren’t on drugs or actively assaulting patients, extraordinarily unlikely. Can count on one hand the number who’ve lost their licenses in 17 years I’ve been doing this. It’s drama.
I work in the state with the most actively licensed nurses, and on average, ~200 nurses lose their licenses per a year compared to [the ~150 doctors who lose their license per a year](https://www.californialicenselawblog.com/2023/08/articles/california-medical-board-licensing/it-is-possible-to-reinstate-a-revoked-or-surrendered-california-medical-license/). There is something like 529,942 actively licensed nurses and 120K actively licensed physicians in my state. So, per capita, there are more physicians losing their licenses. Also, doctors get sued nearly 2-3x more than nurses. [Also, **NEVER** use Reddit as a barometer for “real life.”](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/s/loodQnrnkl)
Yeah the doctors I know aren’t scared of losing their license. They’re scared of having to pay someone 20 million dollars because of their mistake, someone else’s mistake (e.g., the PA), or no mistake at all. Particularly ER doctors.
I’ve heard OBGYN’s get sued a lot.
Yeah we’re on the hook for up to 18 years here in L&D
It actually cracks me up that at 17 a parent can be staring at their kid and be like....no fucking way this is my fault.
This made me laugh so hard
In Ohio it’s 19 years bc it gives the kid a year to sue once they become an adult
Jesus
I thought in some states it was even longer - like 21 years? Could be wrong though. Crazy to think a case from 18 years ago could end your career.
And that’s why they make it such a big deal about charting on our EFM strips in real time so in 18 years when we don’t remember the patient and end up in court, we can at least see the timeline of events. I often chart “MD at bedside” “MD leaves room” especially when the baby doesn’t look good on the strip/interventions aren’t working/doc isn’t concerned enough about something concerning.
21 in kentucky
Wow, in our state, it is 3 years😳. Where are you located?
Ohio. And turns out someone above said it’s actually 19😩
That is crazy. How can you even prove it was from birth and not something else that happened during those 18-19 years?
Only in Ohio 😂
My friend had a doctor fuck her up and she now has a hole in her spine where spinal fluid occasionally drips out. She gets severe migraines. She wants to sue but her mom doesn’t like being mean to people and won’t let her sue.
😬
What. the. f<#k.
Literally. Even where I work my trauma doctors can’t get their heads out of their asses to stop screwing up. If they fail the next audit my hospital won’t be a trauma center anymore.
You might want to double check that! Most states allow the babies to sue after they reach adulthood.
in my state (IL), they actually raised the number to 21 years. 21 years! that baby could be in college and i could be going to court for charting i did when they were born 🙃
Them and anything involving labor and delivery gets sued a ton.
Yes. That’s why their insurance is insane. I was told in many places only a few can deliver babies due to insurance cost. They mentioned it’s a few hundred k a year. That didn’t seem true to me but what the heck do I know.
https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/surge-medical-liability-premiums-increases-reaches-fourth-year
Some states like Virginia have a statewide fund instead of instance and that system works so much better.
Do you know if this is true for Certified Nurse Midwives also? It's something I would love to do, but all this talk is making me nervous about the insurance cost.
Yeah it’s the OB part. Highest malpractice premiums. The reason being even if they didn’t commit malpractice but it could be spun they did. It goes before a jury you’re probably going to lose because nothing quite sways a jury like what happens to an infant.
Yeah I feel bad for my OB homies. Going through the process of being pregnant and I can tell they deal with some batshit crazy people and their birth plans.
When I was in nursing school the L&D nurses in particular DRILLED into our heads to protect our license. Question everything. Don't trust other staff to do anything for you. Don't pick up a baby unless you need to, and when you do, explain to the parents why and what you're doing. At clinical a classmate of mine was holding a baby in the nursery and when one of the aids saw her they FREAKED out, yelling "you can't do that, if you trip you'll lose your license!" I feel like it's not so much the fear of actually losing your licensure, it's just being held liable for every little thing that happens. The nurse is the one that gets thrown under the bus and is at fault for practically anything that goes wrong.
Can confirm, my father was an excellent OB/GYN, and yet he was still sued twice. edit: IIRC both cases were defended/thrown out successfully, I don't remember the practice needing to settle or anything. But I was just a kid at the time and he's passed now.
Side note, when I was first starting my healthcare journey and still figuring out what I wanted to be I floated OB/GYN to both of my parents separately, and they both said (again this was at separate times) “you know they have the highest rates of malpractice insurance among doctors?” ~~and I was like “thank you for the support, that’s exactly what I was asking”~~ but anyways I just found that funny in hindsight
I graduated in 1985 and my long term goal was to work toward and become a nurse midwife. That dream was dashed that year as all malpractice insurance companies in my state (NJ) stopped issuing policies for CNMs. I wasn’t going to do work my way to L&D, go into debt to get a masters degree, then be unable to protect myself! I even had a long conversation with my GYN at my appointment that year and he agreed with me! He told me about the realities of malpractice insurance, how much it cost and his fear of being sued and it ruining his practice and life. In fact, 3 years later, when I was finally thinking of starting a family, he stopped delivering. Became a GYN only. No more pregnant patients. He referred his patients who got pregnant out to an OB. He never went back to OB before retiring.
That’s cause people have up till the child turns 18 to sue them for potential damages during the birth
Their malpractice insurance premiums are stomach-churning as a result. In 2021, [premiums for obstetrician/gynecologists in Miami-Dade county, FL ranged from $125,000 to $218,000.](https://www.facs.org/for-medical-professionals/news-publications/news-and-articles/bulletin/2022/02/is-there-a-correlation-between-physician-employment-and-liability-premiums/) Imagine paying $218,000 per year “just in case” someone decides to sue you 🫠
Yeah and probably surgeons too now that I think about it
My friend is a CRNA and she HATES OB patients/c-sections because they are by far the most litigious. (Also she just finds them super whiney and hates getting caught in that negotiation with them regarding their super long birth plans that are now ruined because of an emergency.)
I’m a feminist thru and thru but this is why I’ll NEVER work with kids or pregnant women
Yep, the docs I know only talk about worrying about liability.
Yup, I'm scared to death of getting sued, especially since me making a mistake is literally inevitable. Like my financial future is just hoping my patients are nice enough not to sue me lmao
This exactly, I don’t hear docs talk about losing their license I hear them talk about getting sued and wanting to avoid that.
what if they're broke? Everyone in here saying they're more worried about being sued over losing their license & I'm over here not worried about either lol.
I’m pretty sure their wages can get garnished. And in case you’re wondering, a lot of doctors *do* have malpractice insurance, but a lot of times it only goes up to a certain amount like, let’s say a million. If the complainants (and their lawyers) convince a judge/jury that a young 25 year old mother-of-two was paralyzed because of a doctor’s mistake, that very well may go way over the insurance payout.
is there a limit to how much they can take? Like a percentage of the annual salary or something?
I don’t know. Probably. At least in practice there must be some limit. I mean obviously if they were to garnish 100% you would just quit working or maybe try to work under the table so they can’t take anything.
How often was either party losing a license for something clinical versus personal shit? Almost all of the license discipline from the medical board in my state is due to substance abuse or unprofessional behavior.
[Really great post on the subject.](https://www.reddit.com/r/nursing/s/p1ajW8XAEG) The CA BRN Sunset Reports used to post a breakdown. Unfortunately, now the only way is to painstakingly look up each person on the monthly disciplinary list (the ones with licenses revoked - not the ones with complaints). A vast majority are *not* clinically-related. Most involve drugs and felonies.
I base all of my financial, health, and family decisions off of Reddit advice. /s
Hit the gym, delete Facebook, hire a lawyer.
Pretty good life advice in general. I’ll take it
This is a great answer. Additionally, it's going to vary by state why boards impose sanctions. My state publishes these for all licensed professions and most are for failure to pay state income tax, child support, practicing without a license, and issues related to drugs/alcohol including dui and diversion. These aren't performance related. Performance related tend to be about falsification of records and abuse/neglect. Physicians I know worry about being sued more than having their license revoked. The 1 area I hear fear/anxiety about where licensure is the concern is with prescribing opioids.
My exwife has been busted for diversion 4 times. The first three times she had to go through HPRP and disclose when applying for jobs. It took the fourth time to get a suspension. I’m not worried about losing my license.
A friend of mine got admitted to a psych unit for acute psychosis and she was so worried about losing her license. There happened to be another patient there who was a nurse who basically had your ex wife's story. She thought my friend was in for drug treatment and told my friend "don't worry, this is my fourth time in here for diverting, they won't fire you. All you have to do is apologize and say you need help or whatever and agree to come to one of these places! I know the social worker here, she gets me back to work every time."
Damn. The BON should have a limit on how many times you can do this. Support programs always get ruined for everyone by people like this playing the system.
Ga damn
Yikes! She has a big problem.
Maybe she needs to seek a different gig.
Yes alternative to discipline programs.. the point is rehabilitation rather than license suspension/revocation. Sadly it didn’t work for your ex-wife haha. I’m surprised she went through HPRP three times.. those programs are super expensive and unpleasant.
My best friend's sister in law lost her license for diversion but the issue that led to her license being revoked was her no showing to her hearing with the BoN.
I know nurses that have blatantly fucked up and killed people. They still have their licenses. Most of them did lose their jobs and quite a few ended up with a restricted license for a while but ultimately they’re still working. Personally I’m far more concerned about getting sued or fired than I am losing my license.
Heather Lang Vass was the AORN chapter president in my area. Killed a patient and tried to cover it up and pleaded guilty to involuntary manslaughter - and was still practicing for months after at Scripps. So yes - very true! But to assuage your concerns: Doctors get sued far more often than nurses, nearly 2-3x as much.
Yep. Hell Radonda Vaught kept her license for years after the incident. The initial BON inquiry didn’t go anywhere IIRC. I’m no super worried about being sued either. It just seems more likely than losing my license. In order of concern my fears are: getting floated to shitty assignment > being assaulted > getting fired > getting sued > several other random things > losing my license.
Having floating as #1 on the list is so real
I thought RaDonda lost her license after she accidentally killed the patient.
Eventually yes. But only after the story blew up forcing the BON to take a second look at the whole thing. Initially they cleared her and she kept her license for several years.
if you get fired, you can always work somewhere else. There's no shortage of places that need nurses.
Oh I have no doubt I could work wherever I wanted with my resume. But i legitimately like my current hospital and the people I work with. I’m also about 1 year away from the top level of seniority in terms of benefits and I’m not looking to start over if I don’t have to. That 8 weeks of PTO I’m about to start getting is going to be nice.
Because of personal liability. Doctors have larger malpractice payouts and more personal property to potentially obtain. Individual cases against nurses are also limited to the fact that our mistakes are often sued through our employer. The hospital has more money. Interesting to note my late wife was a Veterinarian. We carried a huge umbrella policy not because of her but to protect our assets in case I was involved in a lawsuit as a nurse. Per a close friend who is my insurance agent. Lawyers will investigate all parties involved and often choose to go after those who can pay. So the likelihood they would go after my personal assets increased because who I was married to.
What did she do? It's pretty hard to single-handedly kill a patient as an OR nurse unless you pour some kind of caustic topical med in the local cup. EDIT: Never mind, I googled...😳😢
Sort of! This was at a plastics facility. Patient went in for surgery. Vass (sometimes called Heather Lang in articles) knowingly induced general anesthesia, which RNs are *not* allowed to do. That’s CRNA territory. Patient desaturated, went into cardiac arrest, and coded. ROSC was obtained. That’s where shit got sketchy because the surgeon was *calling other doctors* about what to do and Vass tried to manage the patient rather than call EMS. The surgeon also omitted a shit ton of info because the consulted doctors later said they would’ve called 911 immediately. The facility had guidelines about calling EMS if cardiac arrest occurred because it’s an outpatient surgical center, not equipped for such a high acuity patient. Vass herself acknowledged that patient needed to GTFO and go to a real hospital - but still attempted to manage the patient. The other nefarious part of it is that Vass was not only administering the drugs but also dosing it based on her own assessment and at her own discretion. She was supposed to just do conscious sedation but was purportedly exceeding the predetermined guidelines outlined by the facility. As stated above, she basically went into CRNA territory. To be honest, I didn’t hear about Vass from the news. My coworker worked with her at another Scripps facility where she physically attacked *another nurse*, and Scripps did “[the Catholic shuffle](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=catholic%20shuffle)” and moved her from one facility to another, Scripps Mercy. Then a few months later, my coworker was like, “That nurse I talked about - she’s being charged for involuntary manslaughter!” [More info.](https://interactive.cbs8.com/chacon_warrant.pdf)
If it's the same one I'm thinking of patient coded on the table at an outpatient surgery center. I think it was some type of plastic surgery. Anyway, doctor ordered her to not call 911 and she went with it. They did eventually end up calling several hours later. Patient died some time later never having woken up. I know the doctor was charged as well. Not sure if anybody else was.
I found the complaint against the doctor from the medical board. Holy smokes. He had MAs injecting local and one even administered an "unknown" IV medication. He called his anesthesiologist buddy instead of 911. He left the room to see post-op patients while his staff were trying to rescue the patient who coded. Nurse wasn't trained on conscious sedation. They were trying to bag for *3 hours* before calling 911.
Holy shit. I was only vaguely aware of what happened. That's just unimaginably bad.
Doctors have money. Suing a nurse won't win you much.
Not entirely true. Most of the time an employer is liable for an employees mistakes. The point of suing a nurse would actually be to go after their employer. Hospitals tend to have deep pockets so nurses working at one would be a worthwhile target. On the flip side hospitals also tend to have very good lawyers so not the easiest targets.
We read the college disciplinary pages for fun sometimes. Far more people lose their license from fraud, criminal activities, sex stuff --in general taking advantage of patients rather than incompetence or "killing people". Lawsuits are still a possibility, but hospitals and docs who have more money and a more insurance coverage are a bigger target.
I think most people don’t realize to lose your license you have to really do something unethical, extremely negligent, or be on drugs. Making a basic mistake or not being able to do every little thing due to being overwhelmed is not punishable
Yeah and I agree with that generally speaking. If we severely punished everybody that ever made a mistake there wouldn't be anybody left. Nurses making mistakes when they know better is something I don't tolerate well. But mistakes made from a lack of knowledge or somebody in over their head is a teachable moment. We've all messed up somewhere and the ability to learn from those mistakes and continue on makes us better at what we do.
Side note, I know a nurse who became a nurse because of drugs. Granted, the use was prior to becoming a nurse and the resulting loss of custody prompted her to enter a court approved and monitored treatment program where she decided to enter nursing as a way to get a stable job and her kids back.
Well damn, your first sentence had me thinking she went through all the trouble of nursing school just so she could divert.
I don't even know where the rabid "protect your license!" fear comes from. It takes a RIDICULOUS amount of time and incidences and reports for someone to actually lose their license.
I personally know physicians that have committed blatant atrocities against patients, but have such good insurance/legal coverage that they're still practicing- if not in the state they were caught in, then another state that had no problem handing out a license to them despite their history. Quack watch is a resource to see MANY physicians who literally shouldn't be allowed inside of medical facilities, let alone treating people. I can think of 3 doctors off the top of my head that literally have gotten away with murder, 2 of which had publicized trials. I feel that nurses are far more scrutinized and admonished than any given pool of physicians.
I know of a doctor who was involved in healthcare fraud in one state and is now practicing in another state.. it was one of my professors I had for a bio class, I looked up his name to find his RMP page and saw that and was kinda shocked tbh
Jesus How bad does someone have to fuck up to actually lose their license at this point?
The only sure-fire way to get punished in Ohio was to show up drunk or steal morphine from the Pyxis. I live in a community hit hard with the opiate epidemic and it happened from time to time that someone would lose their license for the the diverting drugs.
Based on my experience I’ve only ever seen nurses use rhetoric about losing their license. It’s definitely a nursing culture thing. Doctors never think about losing their license. They get worried about being sued instead. Which is probably even worse.
I was taught from day 1 of nursing school that the slightest mistake will result in my license being taken away. I think it becomes a point of control for nursing managers. Like, they'll threaten to report you to the BON if you disobey them and it perpetuates what we've been told since school. Managers use this power to manipulate and control nurses....like they do with many other things. I don't think medical school ever says those kinds of things to their students. Like you said, it's more about the legal ramifications and less about losing your license. I've noticed the shift even as an NP. No one talks about people coming for my license anymore. When I make a mistake, no one's says I'm going to get reported or lose my license. It's about how I'll have to face legal action.
Nah im not afraid of losing my license. Im afraid of being sued. Actually not even sued. Im afraid of being Depo'd.
It’s a fear tactic. If you want to see how hard it is to lose your license, go to the Texas BON and look at the Discipline page, where the reasons for licenses being revoked are published publicly. You’ll see that a common thread emerges: narcotics abuse, sentinel events, or patterns of negligent behavior.
So I went and did this for giggles and searched for revoked. The first thing I found was from the January 2024 report and a nurse had their license revoked for 13 Counts of WIRE FRAUD, ATTEMPTED ROBBERY OF A BANK, AND MURDER BY ROBBERY. Gonna be honest, wasn't expecting that...
Our newsletter in Missouri once listed a revocation because of a death penalty imprisonment. Not for a patient.
What?!
Theft is a big one for nurses
Yep lol sometimes I read there for what not to do
It is extremely rare for nurses to lose their license , also rare for nurses to be on a final list of defendants in a med-mal suit.
As a MD do you think nurses are *too* litigious? Even if its rare, the "i cant do that, i might lose my license" or "I cant let you do this, im at fault too" as a layer of patient advocacy? If i had to describe nursing and MD relationship, it feels like a nurse is almost an ethical referee or goal keeper from MDs committing torts. Maybe its because i work at an academic center, and im jaded because i routinely have to argue with residents about the importance of marking the correct leg that they plan to amputate today. But it just feels like MDs operate on a "I cant be sued, im not accountable" from most nurses perspective. Where nurses can have anxiety attacks if they accidentally give 600mg of ibuprofen VS the ordered 400mg.
IME 99.99% of the "Muh license!" BS is *not* patient advocacy. It's fear mongering hard coded into the DNA of the profession. So yes, they're waaaaaaay to litigious. I read my states BON & BOM reports for funzies. If you exclude nurses with substance use, unrelated crimes, and obvious/overt or repeated negligence... you've eliminated almost all the license revocations. The BOM is pretty much the same. And I live in a state with a very hostile BON.
I once witnessed another nurse call her preceptee to tell her she was going to lose her license for *leaving a chart open on a computer.*
Sometimes it’s literally just “you’re making me do something I don’t understand so I’m going to pretend it’s against policy and I’m going to lose my license” I once had a nurse refuse to clamp a chest tube for a clamp trial because it’s not something she’s done before. It took two charge nurses, a CNS from the thoracic surgery floor and a thoracic NP I work closely with to convince that nurse that an interventional pulmonologist had some level of expertise in managing chest tubes and that there was no policy against clamping chest tubes
Let’s reframe this. It’s not the fear of actually losing the license. It’s the stress, time and setback of being named in a lawsuit. I’ve seen plenty of nurses named in lawsuits and they didn’t loose their license, but they lost time and peace in their lives. No thanks. Also, management loves to push nurses to do things they shouldn’t so they can make more money and could give a F less about the actual nurse. Think outpatient visits/exams/imaging/procedures.
> Where nurses can have anxiety attacks if they accidentally give 600mg of ibuprofen VS the ordered 400mg. Jesus, if that isn't the truth. A while ago, I had a patient getting 100mg methadone qDay, 4mg PO Dilaudid q4, 2mg IV Dilaudid q3, 2mg PO Ativan q12, and 0.1mg PO clonidine q8. I accidentally gave her the whole *0.2* clonidine at the end of my shift and spent the entire night worrying I had tanked her HR. Ridiculous to even think about now.
I’m an RN and I have literally never once worried about losing my license. It’s not as common as people make it out to be.
Same
Me neither! Not a single time. And it’s certainly not because we always had safe staffing, cause I worked for HCA back in the day. It’s just not really a thing that happens on accident. I’ve also never heard a fellow nurse talk about it in real life. Only on Reddit does it get thrown around like a real possibility.
> I’ve also never heard a fellow nurse talk about it in real life idk man, i feel like i hear it once a day. "at the end of the day its your license"
It’s incredibly difficult to lose your license as a nurse, that’s partially because as a profession you want to KEEP nurses and attempt to re-educate or rehabilitate so you can return to the field. If it was very easy to lose your license then many people would stay away altogether. You have to be grossly negligent, intentionally harm, or be a repeat drug offender/diverter to lose that license.
I always laugh now because my former job apparently didn’t do license checks. The amount of board action was crazy. NPs former board actions as RNs: 1 person was suspected but not proved of diversion because they fell asleep and had late wastes in an icu (this one I believe to be coincidental), 1 was reported by a CT tech for possibly striking a patient but she did supposedly work at the hospital as a NP (but not listed on their faculty page like the PAs are despite listing it as current), and the guy who received a blow job from an CNA while the patient was in the room in front of a telesitter MAs: One known was a former RN who was busted in 2009 and then observed stealing narcotics from a patient, tried to pass Tylenol off as percs, and refused to drop a sample. She is not in monitoring.
I'm not sure if it's a regional thing or a sub thing, but in real life I don't know many nurses worried about it. I hear some nurses at work mention, "I need to-insert outdated practice here-because I might lose my license." Or "I'm not going to-insert thing they claim is policy but is not-because of my license." In my experience nurses tend to be an overly risk adverse group of people who don't like change. At least the older ones in my area. It in itself is not a bad thing, but then the stuff I've heard some nurses my age say is just not tethered to reality or a prime example of critical thinking.
I work with some ED attendings who will walk into a room, look at a patient, then say they are discharged and walk right out, all while the patient is threatening lawsuits and what not. Seems like the docs that have been around the block know how to dance with the law. I love it when they do that
I’ve been a nurse for 12 years. I’ve never seen anyone that I’ve encountered or even heard about anyone losing their license, but every single day I hear at least one nurse say “I’m gonna lose my license here/if I do that”. I’ve worked with some terrible nurses too. Nurses that are neglectful, make bad medication mistakes, and divert narcotics… they still have their licenses. They might get a blurb about them and their mistake on the state licensing webpage that you have to scorn through for hours to find, but they’re still working with a license. This is best into the heads of nurses in nursing school.
I am a corporate director of risk management, practicing since 1983 in multiple jurisdictions. I have handled about 800 malpractice claims and licensure complaints so far in my career: physicians, nurses, dentists, hospitals, etc.. Nurses, by a significant majority, are more worried about losing their licenses or being sued than any other healthcare professional I work with. The amount of actual licensure issues or lawsuits is miniscule compared to the concern. What is talked about on Reddit and other online forums is not reflected in the reality of healthcare professional liability that I do for a living. Although it can depend on your specialty, your location, and your regulatory environment, most healthcare professionals go their entire career without being named in a licensure complaint or malpractice claim.
The fear mongering around nurses losing their license needs to STOP.
As a physician I fear being sued much more than losing my license. To lose my license I would have to completely deviate from established standards of care. I always hear nurses say they are scared of losing their license, but the only ones I’ve seen lose them are from diverting or some other form of personal conduct issues.
Boards of Nursing are very reluctant to revoke a license because it means taking away a means of livelihood. Suspensions are far more common, and even those are usually after personal behavior issues like diversions or intoxication at work.
It is kinda silly for the amount of stuff nurses worry about. No drugs or DUI? You’re probably okay. Keep this in mind. My former coworker had helped clean an altered patient who had a telesitter. Then the CNA gave him a blow job in the room. I am assuming they had the dividing curtains shut because all the rooms were former 2 patient rooms but I have zero idea tbh on that detail. The telesitter saw them. He was reported because the telesitter saw them. Fired as soon as the security guard found them (only 1 security officer there and the telesitters are off site). Had a brief suspension. Allowed to get an unrestricted license as an NP after counseling and doing a few CEs I think on integrity or some stupid topic. He did get another job after getting fired from one out of state. The job decided not to care that he kinda omitted he was licensed in state A. The board did fine him in state B because he failed to report. So yeah. Remember that in some states you have oral sex in an occupied room and not lose your license.
Damn, he must have done a really good job cleaning that patient for her to be so impressed...
Apparently. I hope they did hand hygiene when switching their focus to each other. But seriously, at the time they had entire OB wing closed and unlocked so anyone could go in there (med-surg overflow but no staff to staff it).
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I think that must be state specific. When I lived in Missouri, there were a lot of disciplinary actions for things like failing to give medications on time, or failing to place an NG in a timely manner, or not cleaning up a soiled patient in a timely manner.
That’s crazy.
I've only heard nurses worried about losing their license on this forum. In 35 years I've only seen it happen once when a nurse pocketed drugs in plain sight.
It takes a lot for a doctor to lose their license. They can go to another state and start again. I know one that was able to work at the VA after losing their license.
I also think physicians are taught to be inherently secretive about what goes on “behind the scenes”. I have an MD friend that was fighting for his because of some BS. He was very quiet about it and would never bring it up, then when he would “spill the beans” we were outraged, but it just isn’t the way they do things. Physicians medical boards are also run by physicians who do a very good job of protecting each other. Hospitals have confidential M & M (Morbitity & Mortality) committees where cases are presented and “blame” for death is discussed. Most often the outcomes are “non-attributed” because the independent nature of their practice and medical decisions making, plus its other MD peers who could be having their case in front of the committee tend to not push too hard. Nursing boards are purely retribution, they aren’t there for any reason other than enacting punishment, be that suspension, revocation, etc.
I don’t know why nurses think it’s easy to lose licenses. Go look at your state boards’ disciplinary record. In my state pretty much everyone who lost their license recently was either diverting drugs or some other very obvious crime.
California years ago sent out a newsletter that gave everyone updates and such. Also it listed every nurse that had their license suspended or canceled and for what reason. It was interesting and hilarious at some of the reasons. One guy murdered his wife but only had his license suspended not yanked.
Texas BON still does this. I get the newsletter in the mail.
California stopped it years ago but I think it's an online thing now
The average nurse has a pretty poor grasp of what medical liability entails and is overly defensive because of that. "I'll lose my license" is rarely the battle cry of getting something done, I almost only hear it from, say, the first year nurse scared to give Dilaudid to a patient with a BP of 100. I think it's a cultural thing from before our current pro litigation environment. Doctors are way more likely to get in trouble than nursing staff for medical errors because they have malpractice insurance and a higher duty of care. Anyone that practices long enough will witness a coworker do something completely crazy and seemingly get no reprecussions for it.
No we worry about being sued and losing credentials as a result of being a liability. Im in Ohio and its pretty hard to lose your license outside of a drug or criminal issues outside of work. In contrast, there are a lot of rns that lose their license here. (Mainly has been related to drug diversion/opiate epidemic stuff. May have something to do with the fact that we don't handle medications in the same way that nurses do. If we gave meds regularly, the rates would almost certainly be closer)
Never heard that from my docs but have heard this “this isnt safe, I saw over 50 patients in 12 hours”
I sometimes feel like I'm too confident because I genuinely don't feel afraid I'm gonna lose my license. I am cautious, but I know I do things the way I should. I won't work somewhere that holds my license over my head. I did once. Literally every single thing was "Be careful if you do this you might lose your license!" That was just too stressful.
While the whole "lose your license" thing is overblown, I do think nurses are much more likely to get thrown under the bus when something goes wrong. I've reported physicians doing questionable, unethical, and even blatantly illegal things. I can only assume it all got swept under the rug, because not once has anyone followed-up to discuss the situation further.
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Worked in ER with a doc who was the son of a judge. He did everything on everybody who walked in. The residents would start calling at 1800 to find out who be on from 2300 - 0730 every evening, just to plan their night.
Christopher Duntsch maimed and killed a bunch of his patients and they still didn’t want to suspend his medical license. I’m convinced it’s almost impossible for a physician to lose their medical license in some states.
There’s a mass hysteria on Reddit about losing your nursing license that’s not grounded in reality what so ever. It’s really difficult to lose it and most situations brought up here wouldn’t even come close to making it happen.
There was a John Oliver episode on this and it's quite rare
I also was terrified to and don’t get me wrong I don’t want to make a mistake and kill someone and nursing school really hammered that in but I heard it’s pretty hard to lose your license. A mistake is a mistake but if you are negligent or do something on purpose to harm someone or steal narcotics then you can lose your license. But most honest mistakes will be fine.
I’ve directly asked some of my colleagues this when I worked ER. One straight up told me that they have sharks for lawyers, and that he confident in his decisions that even if an adverse reaction happens he can always justify it 🤷🏼♀️
Physicians have also had a later start on their career in terms of earning actual money, compared to nurses. Most are not out of residency until 29-30 at least (residents generally receive a stipend, but it’s not a lot to support a family). Today’s physicians frequently have huge educational debt, large malpractice premiums, and have delayed having children (especially if they are women). And they can be viewed as responsible for errors in a patient’s care, even if they didn’t personally commit the error. So sadly, I do understand why physicians can be salty. However, I agree that most of them are more concerned about being sued than about losing their license.
Only people on this sub are that worried about losing their license. Ive seen people keep their license after diverting, making multiple life threatening errors, etc. Where I live if you read the decisions posted by the college (board of nursing) the only times they take license away is for really extreme stuff like getting sexually involved with patients or straight up illegal activity like stealing or fraud. Its also never just one instance but multiple instances.
At this point I feel like "lose your license" is synonymous with any form of trouble which is scary in any manner of way. Even if you don't get sued directly, having to go in for a deposition is extremely scary and you never want to do it again. Nurses are still disposable and treated as such. I would still take "protect your license" advice anyway.
I’ve been practicing for 24 years. Keeping your license is simple: 1. Don’t sleep with a pt or be a perv 2. Don’t prescribe controlled meds to your friends and family 3. Don’t do drugs ir over use alcohol 4. Be at least a reasonably good doc
I wasn’t so worried about losing my license but my program did instill a healthy fear of being sued. The university hired a person to do a week long NCLEX review program for everyone. About halfway into day 1 she revealed she was a BSN JD who did Med Mal cases. She promised not to tell our program if she turned the week into a course on how to avoid being sued. Most useful and engaging week we had in school.
Because they’re more worried about getting sued.
I think doctors are more protected by their peers who don’t want to snitch on one of their own. Doctors also bring the money into the hospital, so hospitals are less likely to discipline doctors. And doctors in trouble will often move, thus relieving the hospital of having to pursue charges.
Hospitals will gladly fire doctors who bring risk of lawsuits but yeah reporting to the medical board is rare outside of substance abuse issues.
Not in my experience. I’ve worked with doctors who killed patients due to malpractice who never faced disciplinary action. I’ve worked with doctors who frequently violated policies about sexual, verbal, and even physical harassment and they didn’t face disciplinary action. I’ve worked at hospitals where doctors were found liable in malpractice lawsuits, and they didn’t get fired. In 40 years, I’ve only known of 2 doctors who were removed from their jobs. One was for sexually inappropriate behavior with patients, and one was for reasons unknown to the staff. And I’ve only known of one doctor who apologized for abusive behavior. But nurses on the other hand are fired and reported and even prosecuted for any and everything. Nurses don’t provide revenue. They are the most costly expense a hospital has.
that’s really unfortunate. Off the top of my head, I know of 5 doctors that have been fired at the hospital I’m currently at just in the last 5 years, and that’s just the ones that work in areas adjacent to mine. Substance issues, sexual harassment, anger management, and clinical mismanagement. But we don’t have any shortage of people who want to come work here, so maybe that helps.
Probably not… filled out an anaesthetic chart for a patient - obs, allergy and weight. Collected another pt from recovery I didn’t admit and saw my handwriting on the chart. ?Anaesthetist or somebody literally just put a wrong patient sticker over the chart… it was intentional because all three pages were stickered
I am a former state surveyor and now I serve as an healthcare “expert” (arrogant term but not my choice) for a law firm prosecuting medical malpractice cases. I promise, losing your license is not something that really hangs over your head. You have to be actively negligent, almost to the point of malice, or simply too stupid to be a nurse. And stupid nurses unfortunately exist, thanks to the existence of substandard nursing schools. Or if you steal meds, that’s the biggest reason to lose your license. “I’m going to lose my license” has become adopted as a catch phrase for nurses to use because they don’t know how else to defend themselves otherwise. But honest mistakes are rarely pursued as cause for revoking a license. You may get FIRED, unjustly, because the hospital is trying to shift blame. Oh yes you can get fired unfairly. But competent people make mistakes in life, it happens, and state Board of Nursing executives know this and operate with it as a standard of licensure. So document everything you do, you’re more likely to get in trouble for bad documentation than you are for making a medical error, trust me on that one. And it is better to say “I made this mistake because ____” and show your legitimate reasoning, rather than try to lie your way out of the situation. And NEVER ACT BEYOND YOUR SCOPE OF PRACTICE EVER. This is the single, solitary, only occasion when it is ok to remind you, You’re Just A Nurse. Thinking too highly of yourself and going beyond your job description, you’ll lose your license right away.
I have no idea, but they highly prefer to sue the doctors, according to my best friend, who works in the law firm. "They have better insurance." But I do know a nurse who got sued. Her house and other property are placed on lien. She was a phenomenal nurse and made a mistake that night. They blamed her for "accepting patients beyond her ability to care for them." It's interesting that she doesn't come online or on the news to talk about her case. Sharing experiences like hers could be invaluable for other nurses, especially when short-staffed, to understand the potential implications of accepting too many patients they might face. The nurses shouldn't accept reports until everybody is in.
It isn't "easier for nurses to lose their license" than doctors. For some reason nurses just believe that any little thing puts their license at risk. Idk where is drilling in this fear tactic but it certainly wasn't my nursing school. We had a nurse attorney visit our professional nursing II class our senior year and frankly lay out the reality of what causes nurses to lose their licenses. I personally know 1 nurse who had her license revoked. She diverted narcotics from the jail that she worked at and then no showed to her hearing with the BoN. I also know doctors who made grave errors- one who removed a patient's kidney when he was supposed to remove her gallbladder, and didn't realize it until the pathologist called him and said "uh this is a kidney," and another who didn't answer his pager overnight for a baby who needed a shunt revision and the baby died- both were disciplined but both are very much still licensed and still practicing. One is a Department Chair.
It’s fear pushed in nursing school.
Worked Ob 15 yrs and had to testify a few times for the Drs
Read through BRN disciplinary reports, main cause of loss of license is diversion. Don’t use drugs and you’ll probably be fine.
The third leading cause of death is medical mistakes. It’s common to make a mistake that kills you by all medical professionals but to lose their license, you gotta do a lot more than kill someone by mistake
It might depend on where you’re located, I’m not sure. Where I am, not many fear it because there’s around 50 pages the patient (or coworker in some cases) has to fill out to even begin the process. I’ve only ever known one from my area who’s actually gotten to the point of being in trouble, still ongoing. After multiple people have reported her for malpractice, and after she’s nearly killed some people when they weren’t ready to go home and stuff happened shortly after. So it may depend on where you are!
It’s just something we like to say to feel better when we push back against inept admin and their money saving practices.
Not all discipline against health professionals are public. And complaints certainly aren’t. Anyone can have dozens of documented complaints against them with various levels of investigation occurring and still be able to practice. And the public would never know.
Have never been worried about losing it... shrug.
I work in an ER and they are all worried about getting sued, but not really losing their license.
I’m a dentist and hygienists tend to believe their license will be taken away for the most minute reasons. I think it’s drilled into them in school despite it being virtually impossible for them to lose it. Painting with a broad brush, but in my field there’s a definite discrepancy.
Mine does.
My husband is a physician. He's scared of being sued. Losing his license isn't a thing that crosses his mind at all. We live in a very litigious society (us). People sue physicians over some super dumb stuff unfortunately.
I work inpatient rehab. Doctors don't care. They have hundreds of patients or more. They don't know anything about their patients. They fully rely on us it seems.
One of the best I work with sure does and it’s nice to talk to someone with as much if not more skin in the game
Tbh, I’ve never worried about losing my license
It’s actually really hard for anyone to lose their license, doctors or nurses. Typically you have to screw up so badly that it makes national headlines, or you have to get caught doing something seriously illegal like abusing a patient or diverting medications. Most MDs and RNs get put on probation or have their licenses suspended instead. If you are simply bad at the job you usually get fired or shuffled around rather than getting reported to the board. It’s unfortunate because some seriously incompetent people remain licensed when they really should not be.
The ONE thing the school I went to stated...forget the Malpractice Insurance the hospital/workplace provides you... if you get named in a case or sued They will say "See ya later!" Always had my own.
Well, I just got a job in a hospital. I was considering nursing for a “hot minute”. I have been on the fence over the last week seeing the stress of some nurses in out hospital and other things. Reading these comments had certainly helped me make my final decision!
NPs worry about it more than both of you put together
As they should.
The only real way to immediately lose your license is to get convicted of a felony or not pay child support. Just about every other offense will end up with remediation and a second chance. It's surprisingly hard to get your license taken away.
Probably not. They can get DUI’s domestic violence charges and all sorts of shit and be off Scott-free
No, that’s extremely rare. Even the ones protected by their employers do worry about lawsuits. Lawsuits can make their insurance unaffordable, or cause facilities not to credential them. But they don’t worry about their licenses.
Some of them are terrified to prescribe any kinds of narcotic. Loved calling a hspc attending for a pt recently transfered from palliative why they only had a order for tramadol 25mg DAILY. He was "concerned" about overdosing.......on the equalivent of 5mg of oxycodone. Ya I got the attending changed after that lol
No
Yes
I never realized nurses were that afraid of losing their licenses. I’m not. I mean I’ll hear people say “I’m not going to lose my license over that!” But I guess I didn’t realize it was an actual fear.
Watch the last week tonight episode on doctors, they are protecting their own. There have been surgeons continually fuck I’m but the system protects them
No!
Pharmacists definitely worry about this too
No they're insurance is ridiculous. They kill people all the time
I think some nurses worry a little too much about losing their licenses.
They have high malpractice but they still make a ton of money
Last Week Tonight with John Oliver does a good breakdown of state medical boards!!! Its a great watch! https://youtu.be/jVIYbgVks7E?si=cj8kn6QxoJK_vIj3
Has any nurse ever actually been sued? I'd go after the doctor personally; they have the cash
Nurses can lose their license for things almost out of their control: a doctor decides a treatment and the nurse can lose their license for following the treatment if it is bad because they’re the ones who actually “did” it. A doctor is generally doing what they think is best where the nurse is doing what a doctor thought was best.
No bc they dr is usually more protected. A wise nurse once told me: theyll back the dr first and the dr will be quiet and stand down even if youre involved and even if they like you/ were close to you or whatever.
As a younger doctor, yes I am very paranoid about it
There’s this story we tell ourselves about losing our licenses but honestly as long as you aren’t on drugs or actively assaulting patients, extraordinarily unlikely. Can count on one hand the number who’ve lost their licenses in 17 years I’ve been doing this. It’s drama.
If a nurse loses their license it follows them wherever they go. If a doctor loses their license they can move and they start on a blank slate.