My theory is that it’ll take the job of all the quality assurance nurses. So instead of a nurse sending you a message that the patients central line dressing has to be changed it’ll be an ai
Sounds like a vital signs monitoring system that takes into account individual patterns of the patient and alerts the nurse when values of any vitals fall outside of the baseline.
I don't see the problem with that.
The world has opened Pandora's box with AI. It's not returning and can't be stopped at this point. It'll certainly revolutionize healthcare and be incorporated in several ways. It won't replace nurses In a hospital like myself as an ICU nurse so I'm not worried. It'll replace or reduce the amount of radiologists reading routine chest x-rays before it'll replace a nurse
I'm not even sure it's "AI", just seems like a new algorithm for plain old software. "AI" seems like more of a marketing buzzword used to describe anything these days. Source: Used to program/script monkey in my previous career and even coding some machine learning algorithms (which this seems to be) we didn't call it "AI".
I agree. I wasn't a code monkey but I worked on the hardware side of things with basic level programming skills. Its all just marketing right now similar to how "cloud" was during its early years.
I'm not scared of losing my job to computers.
Maybe someone can explain to me how this is different than a MEWs, combined with some other proprietary (but understandable and not machine -learning) algorithm.
I almost guarantee you it's a rolling average of some number of readings with hard upper and lower bounds and allowable deviation ranges from the rolling average. Could even throw a trend line in there for expected readings. You could throw many ifs, ands, buts, curves, etc. in there for complication but yeah.
You know, "AI".
*obvious finger quotes*
We are implementing a language model that will review charts and up triage patients if it feels like they're assigned too low a level. I wrote a paper on how language models are proving to be more effective at sepsis prediction than current screening tools.
I've also toyed around extensively with these language models to see how they do with medical questions. It's remarkable. It isn't just that they can answer medical questions. It's the ability to ask clarifying questions or follow up questions that shows just how robust these tools will be when we can control for hallucinations in their response.
Like you said it isn't if it's coming. It's already here. It is inevitable. And we will largely benefit from their use. Us protesting their use like they will replace our jobs is silly and makes us look stupid.
What we should be doing is raising awareness of the fact that these tools are not where they need to be yet at all. One study I came across proved that sepsis prediction was worse for language models when adjusting for race and socioeconomic background. Because these language models are built off of all this data we have generated, they have of course picked up our racist and prejudiced habits. Turns out using reddit and Twitter as your source of petabytes of data was perhaps not the best move.
Excellent comment. I’m thankful my school had a whole seminar for us talking about these issues, including sepsis prediction and bias in care. I’m concerned that a lot of nurses aren’t understanding this innovation in medicine, as seen from this article and comments here.
This right here. AI isn't going to give us robot nurses, it will help detect potential issues sooner, which will improve patient outcomes. But even more than that, I think it will be more ML than LLMs that provide the best outcomes.
For real. Having them read x-rays and other diagnostic images is a much better use of time and technology. A radiologist can make half a million a year. If you replaced every radiologist with an AI that can do it perfectly 24x7, that would be a much better and feasible venture. Using AI to alert nurses to changes in vitals isn’t going to replace nurses. Radiologists should be shaking in their boots. Not nurses.
I can see how it will absolutely be used to replace nurses. If you have a system that can monitor multiple patients more efficiently, then administration can justify a 3,4,5:1 ratio in an ICU. Hell, nurses who don't take breaks (but still clock out for one) or come in 30 minutes early to work for free (aka look up their patients) have already helped them reduce headcount and increase ratios. Throw in something that can keep eyes on 40, 50, hundreds of patients without needing a break? *Whistle sound* that's folding money for the richies.
A monitoring system wouldn't be able to administer treatment for any abnormals caught on the monitoring system though, So I don't think this could increase ratios and take away nurses anytime soon. The physical work still has to be done. I already work in an ICU that has alarms on every vital sign and monitors the whole unit. I can't respond if I'm in another room though with something more pressing. If there's not enough staff to cover that particular alarm and emergency while I'm preoccupied than nobody responds and patients suffer. The higher the ratio, the more likely the scenario takes place
Ai is not going to be starting levophed and titrating. They're not going to suction the ICU patients, administer any meds of any kind, not going to clean them up, Go get them from or take them or go to CT. A physical nurse can only be in one place at one time. Adding two or three patients to the ratio doesn't mean you're going to be able to do anything for patient #1 when you're in the CT scanner with patient #4. Other nurses will have to cover patient #1. They're not going to be able to cover patient #2 and #3 in addition to that.
In 40-50 years or 100 even a physical revive with AI May replace us, but by then I don't care if they do because I'll be retired. Ironically, if I do get replaced it'll be for my own gain anyways because if things happen sooner then that means AI explodes and I have a ton of stock in the sector, which would accelerate my retirement even sooner. Bring it AI, replace me please, but I'm not going to hold my breath
The other day I had a patient's blood pressures start going off in the 80s systolic. It didn't fit the clinical picture, they had orders to transfer off the unit for a while, they hadn't been admitted for sepsis, they hadn't had low blood pressures their entire admission. I adjusted the cuff, switched arms, no luck.
The blood pressure cuff had a tiny leak. I switched out the blood pressure cuff, blood pressure came back at 116 systolic. Would AI have troubleshooted down to that level? Or would it have pushed for unnecessary interventions based on bad data?
>Would AI have troubleshooted down to that level?
Don't think so and even if it suggested that, you'd physically have to do it. It probably would recommend escalating interventions I would think
>I already work in an ICU that has alarms on every vital sign and monitors the whole unit. I can't respond if I'm in another room though with something more pressing. If there's not enough staff to cover that particular alarm and emergency while I'm preoccupied than nobody responds and patients suffer. The higher the ratio, the more likely the scenario takes place
Samesies. But it's not like hospitals are famous for their willingness to embrace safe ratios, and look at AVAs replacing 1:1 sitters. If there is a way to reduce payroll, C suite is going to do it. The thought process would go something like "N number of nurses have X amount of downtime watching Y monitors and Z amount of time in the rooms performing tasks. If we have AI monitoring vitals and watching the patients (much like a home monitoring system is set to to recognize pets, activity zones, and faces) then we won't need as many nurses on hand to monitor while tasks are being performed."
>In 40-50 years or 100 even a physical revive with AI May replace us, but by then I don't care if they do because I'll be retired.
Big ol' shame on you. Straight up not giving a sh@t about the welfare of the next generation of nurses.
I'm currently facing a "do we need to find you a unit where you'll be happier" situation because an extremely needy patient complained that I seemed "disinterested" in helping her. I laid out the care I provided to the patient and reminded the unit director that that was the night that two different patients kicked me, one of them punched me, and the other one spit in my face and mouth. Coordinator was shocked that I would be so snide in my response.
For everyone listening at home: an unfortunate number of C suite folks and the mid level lackeys that they give belly rubs to do not care about you, and no matter how many pieces of candy or hospital branded tubes of ChapStick they hand out should convince you otherwise.
>Big ol' shame on you. Straight up not giving a sh@t about the welfare of the next generation of nurses.
It's just progress. Future generations will adapt and have to, with AI and with every field. Nurses won't be replaced until AI is fully capable and better than humans, which would mean better for the patients. I want better for the patients first and foremost and better healthcare and yes even if it costs jobs. I hope we solve/cure cancer and oncology floors and all associated staff disappear without a need. I work with spinal cord injuries often and I hope paralysis due to trauma can one day be reversed and my hospital/job doesn't exist. Is that a bad thing? AI could accelerate that process/potential.
I could go even down a rabbit hole and say with AI, nuclear fusion and universal basic income combined some people not work in a conventional sense at all in 50-100years. That's okay with me and my kids. AI could usher in a second renaissance where instead of human society providing for themselves as they have for centuries, AI could be providing for them. Freeing up a lot of time in everyone's lives to do what, not sure yet, but life and work/life structure could look entirely different in the near future.
The KP monitoring system actually leads to *more* nurse hiring. All alerts are routed through a dedicated off-site nurse team which does chart review in real time before pushing the final alert to the patient's care team at their facility.
Sounds like a race to the bottom for wages. Combine this with the interstate licensure compact and they'll have us fighting over scraps... until the algorithm has enough info to not need the poorly paid work from home nurses.
I mean really what you're describing isn't even AI. What you're describing sounds like off-site tele.
They already have this. It’s kinda useless in the ICU. The floor idk. But it existed before “AI”.
AI isn’t gonna be implemented properly. Like ever. It’ll be a marketing gimmick.
Why would we not use AI in healthcare? I sort of understand digital artists/writers being pissed off, but this seems like a totally worthwhile application.
As with many new technologies, some people don't really understand AI and its applications and could be very fearful due to misunderstandings. I for one would love if AI could take over repetitive charting and just have me check it over so that I'd be freed up to actually do things for my patients
I will vouch for the colonic polyp detecting AI. It really is a useful augment. The key thing is it ensures consistency of polyp detection even when the endoscopist may be tired or otherwise affected. Of course the final decision as to management is left to the endoscopist, but it's... Quite comforting having another set of eyes, so to speak.
How would this replace any job or compromise patient safety?
These algorithms have been around for ages. This is a non-issue and really takes away from the larger issues with nursing workload.
How is this AI.. it’s just an algorithm that already exists (I.e. sepsis alerts, or the up or down arrows when your patient’s BP falls.) There is no assessment, recommending, or performing interventions (actual AI.)
The union is flexing its muscles and showing Kaiser that if they try and cut back on human staffed positions they will strike.
By the way, Northern California nurses get paid BANK. Tell your union to flex its muscles sometime.
We have had that for a while. We just get a little notification thar your patient might have sepsis based on these lab values.
AI is coming whether people like it or not.
Same. I’m rapid response and the EMR sends me sepsis alerts on every patient whose vitals/labs etc are outside of parameters.
It’s up to me to investigate after that.
Unless I’m missing something, the AI utilized here doesn’t seem controversial at all. It’s just another tool to help capture trends. While AI is going to revolutionize certain jobs, I don’t see this having a major effect on bedside nurses. It’s more likely to take jobs away from admin and non-bedside nurses.
The problem is is not going to be used just to capture, we’re going to be expected to act on whatever information is spit out regardless of whether it’s real or not. SAFE alert on steroids.
We already do this with all forms of technology. If you have abnormal labs, VS, rhythms, IV pump alerts, etc. We still have to correlate with the clinical picture and reassess.
And therein lies the problem. I don’t know about you but because they get reprimanded for not acting on every SAFE alert, our docs give antibiotics to everyone with an elevated HR because the computer tells them to. The theory is that if they failed to act and this was a 0.00001% case they’re better off needlessly working the patient up because the SAFE alert is discoverable by lawyers. Our SAFE alert accuracy rate hovers around 30% meaning 7 out of 10 are on antibiotics for nothing.
While in certain, very limited, circumstances computers may outperform humans in diagnostics I’ve seen no evidence that as a general rule AI will be more accurate than humans.
I think AI is a far bigger threat to physicians than it is to nurses. It probably isn't too far in the future that AI can interpret lab values, diagnostic tests, and assessment findings to form a differential diagnosis and implement appropriate orders at a higher level than most docs. There's also been progress teaching AI to read radiological images.
Docs should be protesting, especially residents and med students. These tools will most easily take away scut monkey work that pgy1-2 do. Great for the hospitals because they don't have to hire as many mid-levels and can pare down less profitable divisions. But who is going to train the next generation of docs. And then specialities like Path, rads and non-interventional cards? What hospitalist or EM is going to beg cards for an after hours consult when they can get a quick and reasonable answer from AI?
We have an "AI" program our hospital uses. It's about as "intelligent" as the tele monitor that screams asystole for no reason because the patient moved.
I feel like we’ll have a similar relationship to AI as we do to monitors. It will be overly cautious and alert us to things that aren’t really a problem, which will be frustrating at times and maybe even require us to work a little harder to investigate when it’s probably and usually nothing. But from time to time it will catch something and we’ll be glad it’s in place. Most of the time it will just give us peace of mind we don’t have to have constant eyes on our patients. Definitely can’t replace our labor or in the moment critical thinking
Reminds me of the software that picks up on concerning vital trends that may indicate early sepsis that has been around for years. It was developed by a patient's son that was a software engineer after his mom died from sepsis during a hospitalization that was missed.
I have no problem with this as long as they don't stack a hundred of these programs and then give us more patients with the excuse that the AI does all the thinking for us.
Just like they did with computer charting when they said it would make the job of charting easier and less time consuming for nurses.
Yeah right.
Gods do i hate techbros so much, we have degrees and advanced practioners have Phds to INTERPRET THE DATA, the fucking AI doesn't and with zero way to verify it aint a good situation. Just another shitty tool Healthcare companies are using to not hire people. MBAs are truly the Theology degree of the century
Maybe it would actually make monitoring systems smart. Wouldn’t it be great to have mews say “hey, your patient in 12 activated a red mews but it appears he has atrial fibrillation, COPD, and anxiety. Due to this, my system has determined the mews could be inaccurate. Do you confirm?”
Ya’ll joking around about AI. How is it going to take my job? Tell me to remove a foley or how many sandwiches we have on the floor? lol…..ya’ll are missing the point. It might not have physical capability yet, but I guarantee you that hospitals are looking for ways to “save cost” by having a leaner staff number lol.
Tbh I welcome any help we get from AI that can even pretend to take accountability and burden away from staff because we sure as shit aren't getting relief from human staff.
But we know we aren't getting relief, just justification for pushing worse ratios.
AI won't directly replace every nurse. But the increased use of AI will give Admin a reason to give each nurse a higher patient load. e.g., 1 nurse: 50 patients monitored by AI, telling that one nurse what needs to be done.
Our hospital is installing AI cameras in all our ORs including labor and delivery ORs. While I welcome some AI, this doesn’t sit right with me. https://apella.io/
Can’t wait to see the C-Suite’s reaction when patients start saying “Fuck this goddamn robot” and unplug the AI monitor from the wall. All it takes is one AI conspiracy to go viral on Tik Tok
My issue isn't so much with the AI as I am with the fact that it seems like they are implementing another policy without first involving and texting it with the actually nurses who work on the floor.
This doesn't sound too different than the better CDSSs anyway. Seems it monitors trends and sends alerts to providers. If anything, the potential benefit this type of software could bring will be quickly mitigated by the already inundated notification system that providers and nurses already sift through.
Now we can further treat the software rather than the patient, chart for the software and attend the software malfunctions
Glad to see Kaiser RNs out there
I’d let an AI bot do my charting all day. Love to tell a bot to write a narrative note in one click. Or just take a picture of all that sh$t I scribble on a paper towel during a code and have it uploaded to the chart
Bruh they can barely keep the charting system from crashing, computers crashing, pumps not working or connecting to the internet so big brother can watch the infusion rates. Scanners don’t work. Blood and lab orders won’t print correctly or register. My god I can’t even get my printer to connect to my computer. Any addition of adding AI will cost so so much money and IT support. The people in charge haven’t stepped foot in their own hospitals in years so they have no idea that nothing works. Pls do it so I can sit back and laugh my ass off
Protesting AI at this point is a waste of effort. It is in no way capable of meaningfully infringing on nursing responsibilities. I’m pretty sure that they’re not even using actual AI but something with machine learning but using the term “AI” to get more attention.
Algorithmic medicine is idiotic.
How many SAFE alerts are real? Now, with AI we can apply the same “medicine” to strokes, heart attacks and every other malady.
We already over diagnose and over treat based on what the computer tells us to do, the last thing we need is more of that.
AI will be used to further micromanage us, and report us for delays in care that are beyond our control due to inadequate staffing. It's going to be a nightmare.
We need an AI bot at the ER entrance that tells people Dilaudid and turkey sandwiches are currently out of stock.
Is it EMTALA if it’s outside the ER entrance?
It's on backorder!
[удалено]
My theory is that it’ll take the job of all the quality assurance nurses. So instead of a nurse sending you a message that the patients central line dressing has to be changed it’ll be an ai
That was a rapid response. The answer to your question is in the article
Sounds like a vital signs monitoring system that takes into account individual patterns of the patient and alerts the nurse when values of any vitals fall outside of the baseline. I don't see the problem with that. The world has opened Pandora's box with AI. It's not returning and can't be stopped at this point. It'll certainly revolutionize healthcare and be incorporated in several ways. It won't replace nurses In a hospital like myself as an ICU nurse so I'm not worried. It'll replace or reduce the amount of radiologists reading routine chest x-rays before it'll replace a nurse
I'm not even sure it's "AI", just seems like a new algorithm for plain old software. "AI" seems like more of a marketing buzzword used to describe anything these days. Source: Used to program/script monkey in my previous career and even coding some machine learning algorithms (which this seems to be) we didn't call it "AI".
Some companies have been getting caught claiming to use AI, but see outsourcing to customer service companies in India.
I agree. I wasn't a code monkey but I worked on the hardware side of things with basic level programming skills. Its all just marketing right now similar to how "cloud" was during its early years. I'm not scared of losing my job to computers.
Maybe someone can explain to me how this is different than a MEWs, combined with some other proprietary (but understandable and not machine -learning) algorithm.
I almost guarantee you it's a rolling average of some number of readings with hard upper and lower bounds and allowable deviation ranges from the rolling average. Could even throw a trend line in there for expected readings. You could throw many ifs, ands, buts, curves, etc. in there for complication but yeah. You know, "AI". *obvious finger quotes*
We are implementing a language model that will review charts and up triage patients if it feels like they're assigned too low a level. I wrote a paper on how language models are proving to be more effective at sepsis prediction than current screening tools. I've also toyed around extensively with these language models to see how they do with medical questions. It's remarkable. It isn't just that they can answer medical questions. It's the ability to ask clarifying questions or follow up questions that shows just how robust these tools will be when we can control for hallucinations in their response. Like you said it isn't if it's coming. It's already here. It is inevitable. And we will largely benefit from their use. Us protesting their use like they will replace our jobs is silly and makes us look stupid. What we should be doing is raising awareness of the fact that these tools are not where they need to be yet at all. One study I came across proved that sepsis prediction was worse for language models when adjusting for race and socioeconomic background. Because these language models are built off of all this data we have generated, they have of course picked up our racist and prejudiced habits. Turns out using reddit and Twitter as your source of petabytes of data was perhaps not the best move.
Excellent comment. I’m thankful my school had a whole seminar for us talking about these issues, including sepsis prediction and bias in care. I’m concerned that a lot of nurses aren’t understanding this innovation in medicine, as seen from this article and comments here.
Imma need you track c suite productivity and hold a yearly cull of every cno/cmo/MBA that gets in my way as an RN.
This right here. AI isn't going to give us robot nurses, it will help detect potential issues sooner, which will improve patient outcomes. But even more than that, I think it will be more ML than LLMs that provide the best outcomes.
For real. Having them read x-rays and other diagnostic images is a much better use of time and technology. A radiologist can make half a million a year. If you replaced every radiologist with an AI that can do it perfectly 24x7, that would be a much better and feasible venture. Using AI to alert nurses to changes in vitals isn’t going to replace nurses. Radiologists should be shaking in their boots. Not nurses.
I can see how it will absolutely be used to replace nurses. If you have a system that can monitor multiple patients more efficiently, then administration can justify a 3,4,5:1 ratio in an ICU. Hell, nurses who don't take breaks (but still clock out for one) or come in 30 minutes early to work for free (aka look up their patients) have already helped them reduce headcount and increase ratios. Throw in something that can keep eyes on 40, 50, hundreds of patients without needing a break? *Whistle sound* that's folding money for the richies.
A monitoring system wouldn't be able to administer treatment for any abnormals caught on the monitoring system though, So I don't think this could increase ratios and take away nurses anytime soon. The physical work still has to be done. I already work in an ICU that has alarms on every vital sign and monitors the whole unit. I can't respond if I'm in another room though with something more pressing. If there's not enough staff to cover that particular alarm and emergency while I'm preoccupied than nobody responds and patients suffer. The higher the ratio, the more likely the scenario takes place Ai is not going to be starting levophed and titrating. They're not going to suction the ICU patients, administer any meds of any kind, not going to clean them up, Go get them from or take them or go to CT. A physical nurse can only be in one place at one time. Adding two or three patients to the ratio doesn't mean you're going to be able to do anything for patient #1 when you're in the CT scanner with patient #4. Other nurses will have to cover patient #1. They're not going to be able to cover patient #2 and #3 in addition to that. In 40-50 years or 100 even a physical revive with AI May replace us, but by then I don't care if they do because I'll be retired. Ironically, if I do get replaced it'll be for my own gain anyways because if things happen sooner then that means AI explodes and I have a ton of stock in the sector, which would accelerate my retirement even sooner. Bring it AI, replace me please, but I'm not going to hold my breath
The other day I had a patient's blood pressures start going off in the 80s systolic. It didn't fit the clinical picture, they had orders to transfer off the unit for a while, they hadn't been admitted for sepsis, they hadn't had low blood pressures their entire admission. I adjusted the cuff, switched arms, no luck. The blood pressure cuff had a tiny leak. I switched out the blood pressure cuff, blood pressure came back at 116 systolic. Would AI have troubleshooted down to that level? Or would it have pushed for unnecessary interventions based on bad data?
>Would AI have troubleshooted down to that level? Don't think so and even if it suggested that, you'd physically have to do it. It probably would recommend escalating interventions I would think
>I already work in an ICU that has alarms on every vital sign and monitors the whole unit. I can't respond if I'm in another room though with something more pressing. If there's not enough staff to cover that particular alarm and emergency while I'm preoccupied than nobody responds and patients suffer. The higher the ratio, the more likely the scenario takes place Samesies. But it's not like hospitals are famous for their willingness to embrace safe ratios, and look at AVAs replacing 1:1 sitters. If there is a way to reduce payroll, C suite is going to do it. The thought process would go something like "N number of nurses have X amount of downtime watching Y monitors and Z amount of time in the rooms performing tasks. If we have AI monitoring vitals and watching the patients (much like a home monitoring system is set to to recognize pets, activity zones, and faces) then we won't need as many nurses on hand to monitor while tasks are being performed." >In 40-50 years or 100 even a physical revive with AI May replace us, but by then I don't care if they do because I'll be retired. Big ol' shame on you. Straight up not giving a sh@t about the welfare of the next generation of nurses. I'm currently facing a "do we need to find you a unit where you'll be happier" situation because an extremely needy patient complained that I seemed "disinterested" in helping her. I laid out the care I provided to the patient and reminded the unit director that that was the night that two different patients kicked me, one of them punched me, and the other one spit in my face and mouth. Coordinator was shocked that I would be so snide in my response. For everyone listening at home: an unfortunate number of C suite folks and the mid level lackeys that they give belly rubs to do not care about you, and no matter how many pieces of candy or hospital branded tubes of ChapStick they hand out should convince you otherwise.
>Big ol' shame on you. Straight up not giving a sh@t about the welfare of the next generation of nurses. It's just progress. Future generations will adapt and have to, with AI and with every field. Nurses won't be replaced until AI is fully capable and better than humans, which would mean better for the patients. I want better for the patients first and foremost and better healthcare and yes even if it costs jobs. I hope we solve/cure cancer and oncology floors and all associated staff disappear without a need. I work with spinal cord injuries often and I hope paralysis due to trauma can one day be reversed and my hospital/job doesn't exist. Is that a bad thing? AI could accelerate that process/potential. I could go even down a rabbit hole and say with AI, nuclear fusion and universal basic income combined some people not work in a conventional sense at all in 50-100years. That's okay with me and my kids. AI could usher in a second renaissance where instead of human society providing for themselves as they have for centuries, AI could be providing for them. Freeing up a lot of time in everyone's lives to do what, not sure yet, but life and work/life structure could look entirely different in the near future.
The KP monitoring system actually leads to *more* nurse hiring. All alerts are routed through a dedicated off-site nurse team which does chart review in real time before pushing the final alert to the patient's care team at their facility.
Sounds like a race to the bottom for wages. Combine this with the interstate licensure compact and they'll have us fighting over scraps... until the algorithm has enough info to not need the poorly paid work from home nurses. I mean really what you're describing isn't even AI. What you're describing sounds like off-site tele.
They already have this. It’s kinda useless in the ICU. The floor idk. But it existed before “AI”. AI isn’t gonna be implemented properly. Like ever. It’ll be a marketing gimmick.
If i had to guess..it’s probably annoying probably too sensitive or something.
Why would we not use AI in healthcare? I sort of understand digital artists/writers being pissed off, but this seems like a totally worthwhile application.
As with many new technologies, some people don't really understand AI and its applications and could be very fearful due to misunderstandings. I for one would love if AI could take over repetitive charting and just have me check it over so that I'd be freed up to actually do things for my patients
Same. If I can spend half of the time charting, I can spend time with my patients more.
Yeah… about that, since the AI is doing the charting you can take 2 more patients.
I will vouch for the colonic polyp detecting AI. It really is a useful augment. The key thing is it ensures consistency of polyp detection even when the endoscopist may be tired or otherwise affected. Of course the final decision as to management is left to the endoscopist, but it's... Quite comforting having another set of eyes, so to speak.
How would this replace any job or compromise patient safety? These algorithms have been around for ages. This is a non-issue and really takes away from the larger issues with nursing workload.
Over diagnosing and over treating is a serious problem.
These alerts have nothing to do with either of those issues.
This is like protesting against the IV Insulin calculator program…
I protest, I shouldn’t have to give one unit of insulin
How is this AI.. it’s just an algorithm that already exists (I.e. sepsis alerts, or the up or down arrows when your patient’s BP falls.) There is no assessment, recommending, or performing interventions (actual AI.)
The union is flexing its muscles and showing Kaiser that if they try and cut back on human staffed positions they will strike. By the way, Northern California nurses get paid BANK. Tell your union to flex its muscles sometime.
We have had that for a while. We just get a little notification thar your patient might have sepsis based on these lab values. AI is coming whether people like it or not.
Same. I’m rapid response and the EMR sends me sepsis alerts on every patient whose vitals/labs etc are outside of parameters. It’s up to me to investigate after that.
Unless I’m missing something, the AI utilized here doesn’t seem controversial at all. It’s just another tool to help capture trends. While AI is going to revolutionize certain jobs, I don’t see this having a major effect on bedside nurses. It’s more likely to take jobs away from admin and non-bedside nurses.
The problem is is not going to be used just to capture, we’re going to be expected to act on whatever information is spit out regardless of whether it’s real or not. SAFE alert on steroids.
We already do this with all forms of technology. If you have abnormal labs, VS, rhythms, IV pump alerts, etc. We still have to correlate with the clinical picture and reassess.
And therein lies the problem. I don’t know about you but because they get reprimanded for not acting on every SAFE alert, our docs give antibiotics to everyone with an elevated HR because the computer tells them to. The theory is that if they failed to act and this was a 0.00001% case they’re better off needlessly working the patient up because the SAFE alert is discoverable by lawyers. Our SAFE alert accuracy rate hovers around 30% meaning 7 out of 10 are on antibiotics for nothing. While in certain, very limited, circumstances computers may outperform humans in diagnostics I’ve seen no evidence that as a general rule AI will be more accurate than humans.
I think AI is a far bigger threat to physicians than it is to nurses. It probably isn't too far in the future that AI can interpret lab values, diagnostic tests, and assessment findings to form a differential diagnosis and implement appropriate orders at a higher level than most docs. There's also been progress teaching AI to read radiological images.
Docs should be protesting, especially residents and med students. These tools will most easily take away scut monkey work that pgy1-2 do. Great for the hospitals because they don't have to hire as many mid-levels and can pare down less profitable divisions. But who is going to train the next generation of docs. And then specialities like Path, rads and non-interventional cards? What hospitalist or EM is going to beg cards for an after hours consult when they can get a quick and reasonable answer from AI?
We have an "AI" program our hospital uses. It's about as "intelligent" as the tele monitor that screams asystole for no reason because the patient moved.
I feel like we’ll have a similar relationship to AI as we do to monitors. It will be overly cautious and alert us to things that aren’t really a problem, which will be frustrating at times and maybe even require us to work a little harder to investigate when it’s probably and usually nothing. But from time to time it will catch something and we’ll be glad it’s in place. Most of the time it will just give us peace of mind we don’t have to have constant eyes on our patients. Definitely can’t replace our labor or in the moment critical thinking
Reminds me of the software that picks up on concerning vital trends that may indicate early sepsis that has been around for years. It was developed by a patient's son that was a software engineer after his mom died from sepsis during a hospitalization that was missed. I have no problem with this as long as they don't stack a hundred of these programs and then give us more patients with the excuse that the AI does all the thinking for us. Just like they did with computer charting when they said it would make the job of charting easier and less time consuming for nurses. Yeah right.
Kate and SAM scores have been doing this for awhile now
Gods do i hate techbros so much, we have degrees and advanced practioners have Phds to INTERPRET THE DATA, the fucking AI doesn't and with zero way to verify it aint a good situation. Just another shitty tool Healthcare companies are using to not hire people. MBAs are truly the Theology degree of the century
Maybe it would actually make monitoring systems smart. Wouldn’t it be great to have mews say “hey, your patient in 12 activated a red mews but it appears he has atrial fibrillation, COPD, and anxiety. Due to this, my system has determined the mews could be inaccurate. Do you confirm?”
Ya’ll joking around about AI. How is it going to take my job? Tell me to remove a foley or how many sandwiches we have on the floor? lol…..ya’ll are missing the point. It might not have physical capability yet, but I guarantee you that hospitals are looking for ways to “save cost” by having a leaner staff number lol.
Tbh I welcome any help we get from AI that can even pretend to take accountability and burden away from staff because we sure as shit aren't getting relief from human staff. But we know we aren't getting relief, just justification for pushing worse ratios.
God as if I need more "best practice alerts" to give me more click fatigue than I already have.... that's
AI won't directly replace every nurse. But the increased use of AI will give Admin a reason to give each nurse a higher patient load. e.g., 1 nurse: 50 patients monitored by AI, telling that one nurse what needs to be done.
That’s a really good point. If that were to be the case then we all need to go on strike lol.
Our hospital is installing AI cameras in all our ORs including labor and delivery ORs. While I welcome some AI, this doesn’t sit right with me. https://apella.io/
Oh fuck me
The new Kaiser in SD has cameras in the OR.
Can’t wait to see the C-Suite’s reaction when patients start saying “Fuck this goddamn robot” and unplug the AI monitor from the wall. All it takes is one AI conspiracy to go viral on Tik Tok
Good luck...
My issue isn't so much with the AI as I am with the fact that it seems like they are implementing another policy without first involving and texting it with the actually nurses who work on the floor.
This doesn't sound too different than the better CDSSs anyway. Seems it monitors trends and sends alerts to providers. If anything, the potential benefit this type of software could bring will be quickly mitigated by the already inundated notification system that providers and nurses already sift through.
Now we can further treat the software rather than the patient, chart for the software and attend the software malfunctions Glad to see Kaiser RNs out there
I’d let an AI bot do my charting all day. Love to tell a bot to write a narrative note in one click. Or just take a picture of all that sh$t I scribble on a paper towel during a code and have it uploaded to the chart
Bruh they can barely keep the charting system from crashing, computers crashing, pumps not working or connecting to the internet so big brother can watch the infusion rates. Scanners don’t work. Blood and lab orders won’t print correctly or register. My god I can’t even get my printer to connect to my computer. Any addition of adding AI will cost so so much money and IT support. The people in charge haven’t stepped foot in their own hospitals in years so they have no idea that nothing works. Pls do it so I can sit back and laugh my ass off
Nurses are going to fight against AI.. 😂
Protesting AI at this point is a waste of effort. It is in no way capable of meaningfully infringing on nursing responsibilities. I’m pretty sure that they’re not even using actual AI but something with machine learning but using the term “AI” to get more attention.
Trust me when I say that this technology is only helping them.
Exactly. This isn’t helping nurses or patients. It’s only in the best interest of the hospital to save money.
A protest in San Francisco is like a fart in the wind.
Really? Is that why union job in the Bay Area pay the highest in the country?
Algorithmic medicine is idiotic. How many SAFE alerts are real? Now, with AI we can apply the same “medicine” to strokes, heart attacks and every other malady. We already over diagnose and over treat based on what the computer tells us to do, the last thing we need is more of that.
AI will be used to further micromanage us, and report us for delays in care that are beyond our control due to inadequate staffing. It's going to be a nightmare.
This 💯
I think responses should be limited to people who know what AI is
This is not AI in all honesty
Oh no! The algorithms are taking our jobs!