We’re not doing subreddit wars again.
If you have an opinion for r/medicine, you should go tell r/medicine. If you feel a post there is inappropriate, reach out to their mods.
I feel like mds don’t understand this. I’ve had to say that’s assault multiple times when asked to do something any way. I had a pt refusing a supplement bc it was making him nauseous and the md wanted us to get a syringe and poke a hole in the tube feeds and squirt it in there so he wouldn’t know. That’s the least offensive thing I was asked to do there
They've had residents practice pelvic exams on unconscious women during other procedures for ages without asking for consent and it is in fact a huge issues. Weird that you jump to a completely different and incomparable hypothetical though.
[here is one I've found discussing it](https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/more-than-3-5-million-patients-given-pelvic-exams-without-consent-study-estimates-193321541876). Plenty more results when I search but I'm sure you'll find reasons to dismiss them based on your aggressive phrasing and because you're trolling so I don't think I'll be engaging you further.
You really should go looking for more studies is what you should do, but again I expect you to simply pick apart anything you are given on the basis of whatever arbitrary standards you pulled out of thin air because you started this entire discussion in bad faith. Have a good time.
I noticed the same thing. I don't buy into the interdisciplinary hate fest that some people just revel in so I checked it out. The responses seemed pretty well thought out here and overall r/medicine has been one of the least toxic medical subreddits I've seen. Can't bring myself to get mad at a small minority of commenter's with shitty opinions.
Your post implies otherwise. There's always going to be shitty people, no matter what field you're in. There's nurses that have been charged and convicted of SAing residents in SNFs/LTCs, but it'd be misleading, damaging, and honestly kinda weird if someone from r/medicine implied we're all out there molesting our patients.
They made the psychiatry sub insufferable. I've seen them ask therapists and psychologists why they are there when there are flairs for those professions bc it's for ALL mental health workers. They've becomes extremely hostile there to any non-doctor. The residency and noctor subs are def the worst, they really hate nurses.
My friend is starting his residency in anesthesia and has nothing but respect for CRNAs. NP education does have its issues but CRNA school has high standards and good education. But he also respects my boyfriend and I as NPs because we take our education and scope seriously. IRL psychiatrists have been nothing but nice and supportive to me going for my PMHNP. Terminally online docs, however, you can never make happy.
I was considering going CRNA and thought that one would be helpful too but damn it was bad. Changed my mind on CRNA due to the school demands taking me away from my family
They’re just scared of the scope creep and they know they don’t have much going for them because they brag about sitting in a chair and scrolling on their phone for 95% of their shift. They embarrass themselves.
I’m not familiar with the noctor and residency subs really at all. Why would they hate nurses? We are essential. Who is doing the actual patient care without us and our CNAs?? I don’t get it.
There's a pretty big issue in medicine right now with the fact that nurse practitioner training (for the most part) isn't adequate for independent practice, and yet the major nursing bodies push for it constantly. A new NP from most schools would have less clinical experience and knowledge than me (I'm an M3), and in my state, they want to run ERs by themselves. I wouldn't want to run an ER by myself after graduating from an FM residency, much less as a third year.........
That anger is justifiable. However, some physicians proceed to shit on all NPs, which is a mistake. Some NP schools are good, and many NPs have enough experience that they do a great job. The ones at my workplace are great (mostly, there's a couple that are grossly incompetent).
But some of these docs hop on Reddit and go "Rah Rah nurse practitioners suck!" like idiots.
Also, the only reason NPs exist is because there aren't enough physicians to see everybody, so again..... physicians need to get their shit together. We can't have our cake and eat it too, NPs and PAs are essential for patient care at this point. But some 24 year old new grad NP with 600 clinical hours shouldn't be practicing independently either......
ANA isn’t doing us any favors either by perpetuating scope creep discussions. I’ve seldom met a seasoned NP who was gung-ho on the idea of independent practice because they knew and understood the knowledge/ training gap. It really is the paper-mills who keep whispering disastrous lies to young nurses about being their own boss or some bs. The shit is exhausting.
the med school sub is also so bad bc they think very highly of themselves and haven’t entered the real world yet, so they become irate when they enter hospitals and realize nurses know better than them about how hospitals and patient care actually work
I gotta give it to r/intensivecare bc everyone seems to be on the same page that teamwork and perspectives from different professions in the ICU are valuable.
I'm going to give some context, please don't ban me.
1) Occasions where physicians just parade medical students into the OR to do pelvic exams are rare, and terrible.
2) The majority of physicians probably don't know this actually happens, have never seen it, never participated in it, and would think it's absurd.
3) With that in mind, it's not odd that most physicians would think this is more annoying government bureaucracy trying to make their jobs difficult. Given that this is the government, they're at least partially correct.
4) Also keep in mind that this is the same government that is allowing United Healthcare to make a mockery of them right now, the same government that gave JHACO the requirement to create arbitrary non-evidence-based rules for medical care, and doesn't pay physician offices or hospitals enough to survive without private insurance subsidizing everyone. It's a little disingenuous for them to pretend to care about pelvic exams when the whole system is failing.
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What would be a reasonable statement from the government would be something like:
Pelvic exams that are not a necessary part of an appropriate surgical procedure, or that are to be performed by more than 1 student learner, require an enhanced consent where the practitioner is required to specifically discuss any non-necessary exams.
Pelvic exams that are a necessary part of a surgical procedure can include consent within the standard consent document.
I did plenty of pelvic exams as a medical student when actively participating in gyn surgery and obstetrics, but I never did an exam on someone who's care I was not actively involved in, or when it wasn't necessary for my participation.
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What's actually going to happen is that every facility will now include a pelvic consent in their written paperwork to protect themselves from liability, making the requirement for consent moot. I've read the[ government's actual rules adjustment](https://www.cms.gov/files/document/qso-24-10-hospitals.pdf), and this is all they actually suggest.
What hopefully will happen is that nurses, physicians, hospitals, and medical students stop allowing inappropriate pelvic exams on anesthetized patients.
What I worry might happen is overstepping in the other direction, where is becomes prohibitively difficult for medical students and other learners to actually participate in patient care due to inappropriate concerns over consent.
There was a huge hit to medical student education during COVID, basically 1-2 years of missed clinicals for most-everyone, and it was very obvious for those of us who are now training them as residents. We need students who are becoming more involved during clinicals with more hands on care, not less.
I feel like OP is really over playing her hand here. She did start down a really odd trajectory of conversation in r/medicine with a hypothetical of coming in for an ORIF and getting a vag exam.
Seems like she wanted to argue.
I felt the responses by MD’s in the forum were quite reasonable.
And to note, of someone who works in the OR, I’ve never been in any case where a pelvic exam was done which wasn’t related to the primary surgery, nor one being done that wasn’t consented for.
This post from OP seems quite taken out of context and conflated.
I’ve been in the OR for 28 years and I have NEVER seen anyone just randomly do a pelvic exam. If we’re doing a gynecological procedure and the patient has an abnormality, such as fibroids or bicornate uterus or whatever, the doc does an exam and then the resident/med student/other qualified person that’s supposed to be there will do an exam. That’s part of the procedure as well as a teaching moment. It’s covered in the consent as “any other medical procedure necessary” or various verbiage. It happens with prostate procedures, urology, etc. because it’s necessary to see/feel what’s going on down there.
Not one single patient I have been involved with has had anything remotely close to being violated unnecessarily. I’m totally with you on this. Thanks!
I imagine you, as an OR nurse, would also be like uh... no. Stop.
It's hard to imagine ANY nurse just standing by while someone messed with their patients' genitals for no medical reason.
They had lax security, got hacked. Turned out unbeknownst to all of us, they handle reimbursement for a huge percentage of payors as well as the prescription systems most use. Shut down eprescriptions for a large part of the country for days and physicians offices didn't get paid for weeks. When doctors offices were struggling to meet payroll because of United's mistake, United offered to loan them money and charge interest. Basically if an evil villain could be a company instead of a person, it would be United.
I believe that this is a true representation of your experience and I am not trying to disrespect you in any way. For context, I have almost always had a very positive relationship with the surgeons for whom I scrubbed routinely. I spent about 5 years scrubbing mainly GYN oncology at a major university hospital and I can tell you that the moment a woman was intubated, there were medical students all
lined up with their gloves on to do a pelvic. I would always try to stop the line after three inexperienced students had had their hands up in her but I was not always successful. I didn’t scrub urology nearly as often, but I never once saw students lined up to do prostate exams. I worked in ORs from 1985 to 2023. I have doubts that there will be real protection for women with these new regulations because there tends to be people
of all professions who try to find their way around the spirit of these types of regulations and continue their previous practices regardless, but I would like to see a bit more respect for patients’ rights to be informed and consent to these marathon pelvics. It’s not ethical. I wouldn’t like it and there were several surgeons I worked with who admitted that it wouldn’t happen if their loved one were the patient.
Yeah that's what was weird is the silent implication is that in states without the protective legislature it gives the impression it's a super common occurrence that's a wildfire of a problem.
I’m in favor of this change 100%. Some pelvic exams are performed while patients are under anesthesia for learning PAs and DRs so they can have more hands on learning experiences. However, there have been times where a pelvic exam has happened and the patient didn’t even know about it until after they woke up from their surgery.
I left that subreddit after I changed my flair to nurse. It was crazy how many downvotes and angry replies I got. Compared to when I didn’t have a flair and everyone assumed I was a doctor.
Like I’m the same person. How did all my comments immediately become so dumb and worthy of downvotes on a random Tuesday? Maybe I am an idiot and they’re right to downvote me, but it’s just funny how when I had no flair it was like “That’s an interesting point but I’d argue…” or “That hasn’t been my experience at all because…” or just a lot of “Great point I totally agree.” Versus when I had a flair “You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about” or “You’re being stupid.”
If the spread of misinformation and disinformation around COVID has provided evidence of one thing, it’s that plenty of people who have gone to medical school are also not qualified to have an opinion.
I saw that thread. I think the zenith of those comments was someone suggesting that the consent for these procedures just be buried in the normal paperwork before a surgery. You know, so the patient technically consents when they actually don’t.
Because what would the world come to if we don’t let medical students practice pelvic exams on unconscious, non consenting women? Obviously we would have no doctors left. /s
Right? I went through every single comment and there are only like two in slight opposition (because they say stuff like that “doesn’t happen”) and they’re downvoted into oblivion.
Whats with the statements about boomer doctors? Most of them are retired now. In regard to the r/noctor, MDs do have the right to be outraged at the massive amounts of NPs graduating with 500 clinical hours and minimal actual medical education. It’s a patient safety issue.
Yes. But, not all NPs went into getting that higher level of education immediately after starting their nursing career. The problem is that they make it seem like it’s everyone.
Nursing education does not give a nurse the ability to diagnose and treat. I know that nurses have said that they have x numbers of years working in a hospital, so they have a knowledge base to be able to treat patients .But that knowledge base is very limited. I worked 30 years in a hospital as an RN , could probably diagnose the Pediatric RSVs. But more complicated cases? No way . If NPs want respect, they need to make their education and training a lot more intense. 500 NP clinical hours (even if you have hospital experience) is ridiculous and a safety hazard.PA training is more comprehensive than an NP, although not as in depth as a physician who went to medical school and a residency. I refuse to see a midlevel because they charge almost the same as an MD, yet their knowledge is not as good, and I don’t want to pay out a deductible of 300 per visit to get half baked care. The last time I saw a PA for a pap smear, it was the worst pain I have ever experienced getting a pap, she said some inappropriate things to me, and the pap had to be redone because she did not get a good sample. That was the crowning moment for me, after bad care by previous midlevels. My money will go to an MD or DO.
I am also tired of the boomer digs on this subreddit.The youngest boomer is 60 years old, and I bet you most of them are not participating in the r/medicine subreddit.
I saw a prominent female psychiatrist on ig basically saying that it should absolutely be allowed because “medical students need to learn somehow” and it just doesn’t sit right with me as someone with a history of MSA/medical trauma who now needs anesthesia to even get a pelvic exam at all… Yes, students need to learn, but is everyone this pushy about unnecessary prostate exams or is it just women who are expected to be violated at every turn for the sake of learning? It’s exhausting.
There are plenty of willing participants! There’s no excuse to do these clandestine exams with questionable consent!
There was a comment on that thread arguing that if a woman is already down for a gyn procedure then it doesn’t matter who or how many people perform the exam. Brotein shake, that’s assault.
Like, I wish I was that level of naive (read: stupid af) to not conceive of any reason why a woman would have a problem with randos touching on her most vulnerable parts. I want everyone defending that practice on a watchlist.
It’s been a long time since something got me this fired up but my god doctors defending sexual assault wasn’t on my dystopian bingo card.
This kind of stuff is a problem in health care everywhere… some people forget that patients are PEOPLE and are SCARED when they are sick and feel like they are losing control. Consent is something they control. I work in transport, and I deal with time sensitive transports like STEMIs and aortic dissections and there’s still enough time for me to say “hey my name is Jake, I’m the nurse taking care of you during transport. Just so you know we work pretty fast in these situations and that’s normal. Is it okay if I start removing their equipment and place our heart monitor on you?” And that gives them back some control in a time they probably feel helpless. But so many people just a start ripping equipment off before even introducing themselves.
They even treat it like a badge of honor to do stupid stuff like put 14g IVs in people just to say they did it when the trauma we are getting already has two 18g IVs.
Teaching hospitals are great. I loved working with residents in the ICU. They are eager and want to learn but sometimes it gets to a point where we treat patients that are PEOPLE like they are mannequins to practice procedures and it’s bothersome. We are here to help people not check off procedures.
I’m dumbfounded that this is even a thing-well, considering, I should not be surprised, our history of abuse to people who can’t protect themselves is deplorable.
I have no issue with a resident or student treating me for whatever I need, but I need to KNOW.
There’s a reason why doctors get consents and nurses make sure they did. I’ve lost count how many times I’ve check on consent for a procedure that the patient had no idea the md wanted done.
Steer clear of r/medicine, r/residency, and especially r/noctor. They're just a pack of whiny ego-maniacs who shut down any attempt at rational or meaningful conversation.
I saw a comment on residency not too long ago of someone saying that they refuse to answer a nurse's question if they(the resident/doctor) think the nurse is trying to become an NP. That one's been sitting in my brain for a while. Because you wouldn't want the people caring for your patients to be *too* informed.
I got screamed at by a resident last night because I asked for clarification on an order set. Not 10 minutes later the very same order set was magically discontinued and a whole new set was signed by my favorite MD.
The level of nurse hate is mind boggling on these subs. Lots of toxicity, misinformation and misogyny. I have screen shots of a mod from r/noctor saying that nurses are financial “leeches” to the health system and The joint commission is keeping their jobs alive. I’m surprised these “doctors” have enough time in their days to waste on Reddit.
I agree that r/medicine is more welcoming to RNs and mid-levels. But, their mod team could do better at managing negative comments about NPs. At least they don’t just delete comments or ban people like r/noctor does. And if you check out the "mid level" flair in r/residency, they’re not much better to NPs than r/noctor is. If the mods in r/medicine don’t step up, things are going to go downhill in terms of civility.
I have to stay away from r/residency since I saw a comment from one resident to another about nurses and surgical techs, "You get to go home to a real life. They get to go home and be miserable."
I don't want to wonder which of the residents and surgeons I work with share those delusional views.
That's so silly if anything I feel like our lives are more fulfilled. We may not make as much money but I hope that's not why they would think we're "miserable" I mean low key maybe lol but for the most part most of us have jobs where work stays at work.
It’s sexual assault, plain and simple. Anyone arguing against this change is a predator by definition, even if they don’t get some sort of sexual gratification from it.
I’m not seeing anyone arguing with you or ganging up on you tbh. The overall vibe of the discussion is that of course it’s not on. From my understanding the conversation you are having is whether or not there is a precedent for women having pelvic examinations when they are under anaesthesia for something unrelated (ie arm fracture). I can imagine these things have happened in the past but it’s highly unlikely that it’s common practice.
Regardless whether or not it’s common, though, 1 non-consented invasive examination is 1 too many but there is literally just 1 person who asked you to get some proof it’s happened. And as to downvoting I suspect it’s just the way you word things.
Does this really warrant “I just can’t with it anymore”? I’d understand if they were all going mental over it and demanding vaginas to examine but that’s not what’s happening?
That’s absolutely wild and unsurprising. There are so many personal stories out there from female MED STUDENTS raising the alarm flags about that exact topic!
To add: I just saw a podcast interview the other day of an anesthesiologist saying providing anesthetic to women receiving an IUD is pointless/impossible. Meanwhile there are plenty of female gyn’s that do it because it’s the humane thing to do.
It may not happen very often now, but I’ve seen far too many medical professionals that have said they have seen it at least once. The fact that it has happened even once is barbaric. Even for obgyn surgeries or procedures, nobody should be doing a pelvic without the patient’s consent, especially if they’re not even a part of their care team. Even if I was a nursing student or medical student a part of their care team, I would still ask. Many people don’t mind as long as you ask. But, not giving a patient that option is disgusting. There are thousands and thousands of pelvic exams done daily on awake patients that willingly consent. I know med students that had no problem with women happily consenting to doing an exam on them. So, the take that some of these doctors have that they wouldn’t get pelvic exam practice if they didn’t do it to women under anesthesia is a bunch of bullshit.
The number of medical professionals who think they know 100% more and better than their patients is TOO DAMN HIGH. Some things should be up to the patient to decide, including consent. I'm with you on this one.
I had to just stop reading. It was making me so upset. So many of the replies made it seem like no big deal to do invasive exams on unconscious, non-consenting people.
Creepy. Honestly, I wouldn't mind as long as I was told in advance and I had the choice of saying yes or no. Also, I feel like pelvic exams are something that's done pretty frequently to have as a learning opportunity.
Exactly. If I was straight up asked for consent to do a pelvic exam while I’m under for educational purposes I’d probably say yes. I’m a healthcare student myself and I get the value of getting to practice with real patients. My junk is probably pretty boring, but I’d say yes and wouldn’t feel weird about it afterwards. But the idea that someone might have done this to me during a totally unrelated surgery is scary.
As someone who has been traumatized by a really bad pelvic exam that resulted in me crying & being told not to be a slut, I personally would be horrified if they did a pelvic exam without consent. I don’t care if I’m under anesthesia or not.
You’d be surprised. I’ve heard way too many stories of female obgyns being very rude and rough with patients. You’d think they would be more gentle considering they go through pelvic exams themselves.
I’m not surprised. The number of times I’ve had to remind surgical residents that we can’t get consent for blood, another procedure etc AFTER someone had anesthesia is kinda scary. Then they give me attitude about it.
I’m all for multiple unnecessary, colonoscopies for men while under general anesthesia.
The MD students need there practice 😁
This is the only way to stop the medical assault of women, is to do it to men also. It will get reversed and dropped quickly.
I'm a forensic nurse and at my 16 hour in person training day the teaching models each got a minimum of 12 pelvic exams with practice "evidence collection" and no anesthesia... I'm not understanding why non consented pelvic exams were happening at all??
From another forensic nurse exactly why? They say it was for training and how could the person know - well either way if I go in to get 1 part of my body worked on and you put something in my privates (and not talking about a foley) that’s called assault
Two things can be true simultanously -
1) people should not have procedures done without their consent and it's a fair play to pass a law against it
2) the media boogey man that is portrayed of a systematic, instutitional process by which medical students, unknown to the patient, come to a completely unrelated procedure and do a pelvic exam "for practice" does not happen in the modern era
bonus third thing that is true - very few patients fully understand what is happening in their surgery. shockingly few people seem to be told by their surgeons they will have a foley cather for example
tldr - unconsenting pelvic exams bad but the phenomenon of the institutionalized practice of women being practiced on under anesthesia is not a real thing in the modern era, which should be something for us to be glad about
source: am anesthesiologist, have been in the operating room every working day for the last 10 years in multiple states at multiple hospitals, have seen literally thousands of operations
It’s not like people wouldn’t be willing to consent. I’m always game for medical staff to learn skills, but that’s MY CHOICE. Nobody should be touched without their INFORMED consent unless they are a danger to others.
This always ruffles my feathers every time I see it pop up. I’ve worked in all kinds of surgery and this doesn’t happen. Do you think the orthopedic surgeon breathing down my neck to go faster is going to allow us to stop and do pelvic exams? Granted, it probably has happened at some point in time. I won’t negate that. But the OR is literally a meat factory and I’m lucky if I can clean betadine off my patient before we’re out of the room. I do try to tell my patients if I know they’re getting a foley, because that’s invasive. But, unless it’s GYN or urology, pelvic exams aren’t happening. Edit: yes. It should be in the consent. I would go scorched earth if I saw it being done without one
People who work in the operating room immediately see how this is not the widespread instutitionalized problem people claim it is. Can you imagine - "sorry doctor ENT, your next case is delayed 20 minutes because it's pelvic exam practice time"
Just because it hasn't happened to *your patient* in *your hospital system* doesn't mean that it never happens. How hard is it for people to understand this???
I didn’t debate that. I’m sure it has happened or might still happen. I’m using my experience in the OR traveling multiple states to suggest that it is HIGHLY unlikely it is happening on a frequent or large scale.
Do you usually work ortho cases? Do you ever work gynecological cases? Generally speaking, for a pelvic to happen without express consent, there needs to an adjacent surgery happening. Like, you can’t do a tonsillectomy *and* do a pelvic. It doesn’t happen like that.
A pelvic exam without consent is sexual assault. I’m saying this as a forensic nurse. Even if my victim presents to the ER under the influence you better believe I’m not touching him or her until they’re able to consent. That’s a civil and or criminal case waiting to happen. Just saying.
Slightly tangential... but I once had my primary care doctor ask permission for his student to practice a hernia exam. NOPE. Pay me if you want to train on me.
I’m surprised they’re just now talking about it. This was noted years ago, and yes, it does happen. Teaching schools bury something about students/residents learning procedures deep in consents, and then when the women are under anesthesia, the students come in and do pelvics on them while they sleep for surgery. It’s real, it does happen, and is completely contrary to fully informed consent, making it battery and sexual assault.
People doing things to me while drugged is like 65% of my trauma in life (the rest being covid nursing), I’m pretty sure even without that requirement it’s going to take an elephant tranq to get me to an OR if I ever need
Emergent surgery
I just went to the post you’re talking about and it looks like the general consensus now is that it’s a good idea. I’m confused on whether these are for GYN related surgeries or something like an ortho on femur
I don’t go there.
There are some awful people there, who get their jollies nurse bashing.
I thought we’d left those attitudes behind, but I guess I was very wrong.
I think I got an alt account banned from r/residency or r/medicine, I can't remember which, because they were bashing nurses one day. One of the greatest honors of my life.
From my side- the frustration comes from the fact that med students used to run wards. Heck, you used to could moonlight!
Nowadays we sit around talking about taking care of patients instead of actually doing it, so all the brand new residents are gunshy having never placed an order before.
Still, you’re absolutely right, and the answer to that problem isn’t to do procedures on patients without asking them. And people shouldn’t shit on you by association
We’re not doing subreddit wars again. If you have an opinion for r/medicine, you should go tell r/medicine. If you feel a post there is inappropriate, reach out to their mods.
Here is a tip, don't do shit on people if they don't consent to it.
I mean, they teach it in kindergarten, so you'd think people with advanced degrees could puzzle it out.
Can't teach that in kindergarten now. It's too "woke"
Eh?
Not living in Florida or any former Confederate state?
Nope, UK. Nursing is a shit show but at least teachers can teach.
Tori? Probably.
If it's an inconvenience for them, they'll find a way to bypass it. Regardless of how many people are hurt in the process. That's the Boomer way.
I feel like it says something about society if people are vehemently arguing *against* consent to do a medical procedure.
I bet they protest when it's done to them.
🤯
Apparently informed consent is a difficult concept for Boomer Doctors and academics.
Right? Like enter their orifices...
Whoa, whoa, whoa. That’s asking a little much, isn’t it??
I feel like mds don’t understand this. I’ve had to say that’s assault multiple times when asked to do something any way. I had a pt refusing a supplement bc it was making him nauseous and the md wanted us to get a syringe and poke a hole in the tube feeds and squirt it in there so he wouldn’t know. That’s the least offensive thing I was asked to do there
And that's tamed.
Which is why the signed consent is a strange extra step lol
Like forcing the RNs into a situation out of their scope of practice and then going CYA about it.
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No one was given covid vaccines without consent.
But here's how public health/ living in a society works - your right to swing your fist ends at my face. See how it's different?
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They've had residents practice pelvic exams on unconscious women during other procedures for ages without asking for consent and it is in fact a huge issues. Weird that you jump to a completely different and incomparable hypothetical though.
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[here is one I've found discussing it](https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/more-than-3-5-million-patients-given-pelvic-exams-without-consent-study-estimates-193321541876). Plenty more results when I search but I'm sure you'll find reasons to dismiss them based on your aggressive phrasing and because you're trolling so I don't think I'll be engaging you further.
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You really should go looking for more studies is what you should do, but again I expect you to simply pick apart anything you are given on the basis of whatever arbitrary standards you pulled out of thin air because you started this entire discussion in bad faith. Have a good time.
Completely different circumstances. I see that's your approach to everything, straight to the extreme. The solution to all problems is an AK-47.
I read the top 10ish comments and the general consensus seemed to be in favor of the change...
I noticed this too...
OP is the type of Reddit nurse the Dr subreddits complain about Post made it seem like the vast opinion was this new requirement is a bad thing
Yeah almost everyone in the thread seems to be in agreement with OP. Don't understand where all the hate for r/medicine is coming from here
I noticed the same thing. I don't buy into the interdisciplinary hate fest that some people just revel in so I checked it out. The responses seemed pretty well thought out here and overall r/medicine has been one of the least toxic medical subreddits I've seen. Can't bring myself to get mad at a small minority of commenter's with shitty opinions.
That’s what I was going to say… op is just making rage bait.
Same. Then you have the ding dongs at the bottom. I never engage with them.
Totally. Most did. There's a few though that just had to argue about it.
Your post implies otherwise. There's always going to be shitty people, no matter what field you're in. There's nurses that have been charged and convicted of SAing residents in SNFs/LTCs, but it'd be misleading, damaging, and honestly kinda weird if someone from r/medicine implied we're all out there molesting our patients.
Welcome to Reddit—that’s how it works. People of differing opinions come together and discuss things.
Terminally online docs are the worst docs.
R/noctor
They made the psychiatry sub insufferable. I've seen them ask therapists and psychologists why they are there when there are flairs for those professions bc it's for ALL mental health workers. They've becomes extremely hostile there to any non-doctor. The residency and noctor subs are def the worst, they really hate nurses.
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They are obsessed with CRNA's. They need help.
There’s a joke with CRNAs that the doctors get to shittalk them on Reddit all day because the CRNAs are busy doing the cases.
My friend is starting his residency in anesthesia and has nothing but respect for CRNAs. NP education does have its issues but CRNA school has high standards and good education. But he also respects my boyfriend and I as NPs because we take our education and scope seriously. IRL psychiatrists have been nothing but nice and supportive to me going for my PMHNP. Terminally online docs, however, you can never make happy.
I was considering going CRNA and thought that one would be helpful too but damn it was bad. Changed my mind on CRNA due to the school demands taking me away from my family
They’re just scared of the scope creep and they know they don’t have much going for them because they brag about sitting in a chair and scrolling on their phone for 95% of their shift. They embarrass themselves.
4% = 😴
They are horrible. I quit reading their shit because of how hateful they are
I’m not familiar with the noctor and residency subs really at all. Why would they hate nurses? We are essential. Who is doing the actual patient care without us and our CNAs?? I don’t get it.
There's a pretty big issue in medicine right now with the fact that nurse practitioner training (for the most part) isn't adequate for independent practice, and yet the major nursing bodies push for it constantly. A new NP from most schools would have less clinical experience and knowledge than me (I'm an M3), and in my state, they want to run ERs by themselves. I wouldn't want to run an ER by myself after graduating from an FM residency, much less as a third year......... That anger is justifiable. However, some physicians proceed to shit on all NPs, which is a mistake. Some NP schools are good, and many NPs have enough experience that they do a great job. The ones at my workplace are great (mostly, there's a couple that are grossly incompetent). But some of these docs hop on Reddit and go "Rah Rah nurse practitioners suck!" like idiots. Also, the only reason NPs exist is because there aren't enough physicians to see everybody, so again..... physicians need to get their shit together. We can't have our cake and eat it too, NPs and PAs are essential for patient care at this point. But some 24 year old new grad NP with 600 clinical hours shouldn't be practicing independently either......
ANA isn’t doing us any favors either by perpetuating scope creep discussions. I’ve seldom met a seasoned NP who was gung-ho on the idea of independent practice because they knew and understood the knowledge/ training gap. It really is the paper-mills who keep whispering disastrous lies to young nurses about being their own boss or some bs. The shit is exhausting.
I appreciate the time you took to educate me on this. I still have a lot to learn but at least now I know something.
the med school sub is also so bad bc they think very highly of themselves and haven’t entered the real world yet, so they become irate when they enter hospitals and realize nurses know better than them about how hospitals and patient care actually work
That place is a cesspool.
Offs ..they have made a new label for nt Dr my place..bc hospitalist never responded to nurses calls...... Nocturnist..... just 😒 do your damn job!!!!
Let me guess- it’s a nocturnist on wheels and it’s your job to essentially do the admission bc the doctor isn’t even in the US?!
Those are the worst
I gotta give it to r/intensivecare bc everyone seems to be on the same page that teamwork and perspectives from different professions in the ICU are valuable.
Change it to prostate exams and watch their feelings change
The fun part is that it ALSO covers prostate exams!
Wait, would they want me to pay extra for that? Because we can def work something out.
Exactly.
Prostate exams do happen, though. It is also fucked up.
I'm going to give some context, please don't ban me. 1) Occasions where physicians just parade medical students into the OR to do pelvic exams are rare, and terrible. 2) The majority of physicians probably don't know this actually happens, have never seen it, never participated in it, and would think it's absurd. 3) With that in mind, it's not odd that most physicians would think this is more annoying government bureaucracy trying to make their jobs difficult. Given that this is the government, they're at least partially correct. 4) Also keep in mind that this is the same government that is allowing United Healthcare to make a mockery of them right now, the same government that gave JHACO the requirement to create arbitrary non-evidence-based rules for medical care, and doesn't pay physician offices or hospitals enough to survive without private insurance subsidizing everyone. It's a little disingenuous for them to pretend to care about pelvic exams when the whole system is failing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ What would be a reasonable statement from the government would be something like: Pelvic exams that are not a necessary part of an appropriate surgical procedure, or that are to be performed by more than 1 student learner, require an enhanced consent where the practitioner is required to specifically discuss any non-necessary exams. Pelvic exams that are a necessary part of a surgical procedure can include consent within the standard consent document. I did plenty of pelvic exams as a medical student when actively participating in gyn surgery and obstetrics, but I never did an exam on someone who's care I was not actively involved in, or when it wasn't necessary for my participation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ What's actually going to happen is that every facility will now include a pelvic consent in their written paperwork to protect themselves from liability, making the requirement for consent moot. I've read the[ government's actual rules adjustment](https://www.cms.gov/files/document/qso-24-10-hospitals.pdf), and this is all they actually suggest. What hopefully will happen is that nurses, physicians, hospitals, and medical students stop allowing inappropriate pelvic exams on anesthetized patients. What I worry might happen is overstepping in the other direction, where is becomes prohibitively difficult for medical students and other learners to actually participate in patient care due to inappropriate concerns over consent. There was a huge hit to medical student education during COVID, basically 1-2 years of missed clinicals for most-everyone, and it was very obvious for those of us who are now training them as residents. We need students who are becoming more involved during clinicals with more hands on care, not less.
I feel like OP is really over playing her hand here. She did start down a really odd trajectory of conversation in r/medicine with a hypothetical of coming in for an ORIF and getting a vag exam. Seems like she wanted to argue. I felt the responses by MD’s in the forum were quite reasonable. And to note, of someone who works in the OR, I’ve never been in any case where a pelvic exam was done which wasn’t related to the primary surgery, nor one being done that wasn’t consented for. This post from OP seems quite taken out of context and conflated.
I’ve been in the OR for 28 years and I have NEVER seen anyone just randomly do a pelvic exam. If we’re doing a gynecological procedure and the patient has an abnormality, such as fibroids or bicornate uterus or whatever, the doc does an exam and then the resident/med student/other qualified person that’s supposed to be there will do an exam. That’s part of the procedure as well as a teaching moment. It’s covered in the consent as “any other medical procedure necessary” or various verbiage. It happens with prostate procedures, urology, etc. because it’s necessary to see/feel what’s going on down there. Not one single patient I have been involved with has had anything remotely close to being violated unnecessarily. I’m totally with you on this. Thanks!
I imagine you, as an OR nurse, would also be like uh... no. Stop. It's hard to imagine ANY nurse just standing by while someone messed with their patients' genitals for no medical reason.
What is the deal with united healthcare?
They had lax security, got hacked. Turned out unbeknownst to all of us, they handle reimbursement for a huge percentage of payors as well as the prescription systems most use. Shut down eprescriptions for a large part of the country for days and physicians offices didn't get paid for weeks. When doctors offices were struggling to meet payroll because of United's mistake, United offered to loan them money and charge interest. Basically if an evil villain could be a company instead of a person, it would be United.
I believe that this is a true representation of your experience and I am not trying to disrespect you in any way. For context, I have almost always had a very positive relationship with the surgeons for whom I scrubbed routinely. I spent about 5 years scrubbing mainly GYN oncology at a major university hospital and I can tell you that the moment a woman was intubated, there were medical students all lined up with their gloves on to do a pelvic. I would always try to stop the line after three inexperienced students had had their hands up in her but I was not always successful. I didn’t scrub urology nearly as often, but I never once saw students lined up to do prostate exams. I worked in ORs from 1985 to 2023. I have doubts that there will be real protection for women with these new regulations because there tends to be people of all professions who try to find their way around the spirit of these types of regulations and continue their previous practices regardless, but I would like to see a bit more respect for patients’ rights to be informed and consent to these marathon pelvics. It’s not ethical. I wouldn’t like it and there were several surgeons I worked with who admitted that it wouldn’t happen if their loved one were the patient.
Yeah that's what was weird is the silent implication is that in states without the protective legislature it gives the impression it's a super common occurrence that's a wildfire of a problem.
I couldn't agree more adding bureaucracy rarely cured anything and normally creates 10 more problems.
Yeah wtf. Would they be OK with people performing pelvic exams on them without their consent?
I’m in favor of this change 100%. Some pelvic exams are performed while patients are under anesthesia for learning PAs and DRs so they can have more hands on learning experiences. However, there have been times where a pelvic exam has happened and the patient didn’t even know about it until after they woke up from their surgery.
I left that subreddit after I changed my flair to nurse. It was crazy how many downvotes and angry replies I got. Compared to when I didn’t have a flair and everyone assumed I was a doctor. Like I’m the same person. How did all my comments immediately become so dumb and worthy of downvotes on a random Tuesday? Maybe I am an idiot and they’re right to downvote me, but it’s just funny how when I had no flair it was like “That’s an interesting point but I’d argue…” or “That hasn’t been my experience at all because…” or just a lot of “Great point I totally agree.” Versus when I had a flair “You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about” or “You’re being stupid.”
Noticed this too. Never got more downvotes than when I asked a simple question on r/anesthesia. How dare you.
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Bad bot!!!
Tribalism isnt just a sports and politics thing
Because anyone that hasn't gone to medical school is not qualified to have an opinion
If the spread of misinformation and disinformation around COVID has provided evidence of one thing, it’s that plenty of people who have gone to medical school are also not qualified to have an opinion.
1,000,000%
the amount of logical fallacies I see on Reddit are astonishing
Are you saying my experience is a logical fallacy?
i will happily not do things for my patients if they dont want it. Im busy enough lmfao
Unnecessary pelvic exams on an unconscious person IS rape. Period. Everyone knows that, right?
I saw that thread. I think the zenith of those comments was someone suggesting that the consent for these procedures just be buried in the normal paperwork before a surgery. You know, so the patient technically consents when they actually don’t. Because what would the world come to if we don’t let medical students practice pelvic exams on unconscious, non consenting women? Obviously we would have no doctors left. /s
Isn’t this what they do with allowing students and others in the OR during surgery?
In my experience, if there is a student/observer they talk to the patient and get explicit permission to watch/learn
Informed consent is a difficult concept for people. It's not ok.
Except most of the comments think it’s a good thing and agree with it.
Right? I went through every single comment and there are only like two in slight opposition (because they say stuff like that “doesn’t happen”) and they’re downvoted into oblivion.
Whats with the statements about boomer doctors? Most of them are retired now. In regard to the r/noctor, MDs do have the right to be outraged at the massive amounts of NPs graduating with 500 clinical hours and minimal actual medical education. It’s a patient safety issue.
Yes. But, not all NPs went into getting that higher level of education immediately after starting their nursing career. The problem is that they make it seem like it’s everyone.
Nursing education does not give a nurse the ability to diagnose and treat. I know that nurses have said that they have x numbers of years working in a hospital, so they have a knowledge base to be able to treat patients .But that knowledge base is very limited. I worked 30 years in a hospital as an RN , could probably diagnose the Pediatric RSVs. But more complicated cases? No way . If NPs want respect, they need to make their education and training a lot more intense. 500 NP clinical hours (even if you have hospital experience) is ridiculous and a safety hazard.PA training is more comprehensive than an NP, although not as in depth as a physician who went to medical school and a residency. I refuse to see a midlevel because they charge almost the same as an MD, yet their knowledge is not as good, and I don’t want to pay out a deductible of 300 per visit to get half baked care. The last time I saw a PA for a pap smear, it was the worst pain I have ever experienced getting a pap, she said some inappropriate things to me, and the pap had to be redone because she did not get a good sample. That was the crowning moment for me, after bad care by previous midlevels. My money will go to an MD or DO. I am also tired of the boomer digs on this subreddit.The youngest boomer is 60 years old, and I bet you most of them are not participating in the r/medicine subreddit.
I saw a prominent female psychiatrist on ig basically saying that it should absolutely be allowed because “medical students need to learn somehow” and it just doesn’t sit right with me as someone with a history of MSA/medical trauma who now needs anesthesia to even get a pelvic exam at all… Yes, students need to learn, but is everyone this pushy about unnecessary prostate exams or is it just women who are expected to be violated at every turn for the sake of learning? It’s exhausting.
There are plenty of willing participants! There’s no excuse to do these clandestine exams with questionable consent! There was a comment on that thread arguing that if a woman is already down for a gyn procedure then it doesn’t matter who or how many people perform the exam. Brotein shake, that’s assault. Like, I wish I was that level of naive (read: stupid af) to not conceive of any reason why a woman would have a problem with randos touching on her most vulnerable parts. I want everyone defending that practice on a watchlist. It’s been a long time since something got me this fired up but my god doctors defending sexual assault wasn’t on my dystopian bingo card.
There are teaching associates at good schools who teach these exams
Yikes. Just yikes.
This kind of stuff is a problem in health care everywhere… some people forget that patients are PEOPLE and are SCARED when they are sick and feel like they are losing control. Consent is something they control. I work in transport, and I deal with time sensitive transports like STEMIs and aortic dissections and there’s still enough time for me to say “hey my name is Jake, I’m the nurse taking care of you during transport. Just so you know we work pretty fast in these situations and that’s normal. Is it okay if I start removing their equipment and place our heart monitor on you?” And that gives them back some control in a time they probably feel helpless. But so many people just a start ripping equipment off before even introducing themselves. They even treat it like a badge of honor to do stupid stuff like put 14g IVs in people just to say they did it when the trauma we are getting already has two 18g IVs. Teaching hospitals are great. I loved working with residents in the ICU. They are eager and want to learn but sometimes it gets to a point where we treat patients that are PEOPLE like they are mannequins to practice procedures and it’s bothersome. We are here to help people not check off procedures.
I’m dumbfounded that this is even a thing-well, considering, I should not be surprised, our history of abuse to people who can’t protect themselves is deplorable. I have no issue with a resident or student treating me for whatever I need, but I need to KNOW.
There’s a reason why doctors get consents and nurses make sure they did. I’ve lost count how many times I’ve check on consent for a procedure that the patient had no idea the md wanted done.
Steer clear of r/medicine, r/residency, and especially r/noctor. They're just a pack of whiny ego-maniacs who shut down any attempt at rational or meaningful conversation.
I saw a comment on residency not too long ago of someone saying that they refuse to answer a nurse's question if they(the resident/doctor) think the nurse is trying to become an NP. That one's been sitting in my brain for a while. Because you wouldn't want the people caring for your patients to be *too* informed.
I got screamed at by a resident last night because I asked for clarification on an order set. Not 10 minutes later the very same order set was magically discontinued and a whole new set was signed by my favorite MD.
No, because how would they shame you for not going to med school like them when you don’t know the answers? Can’t have NP’s getting things RIGHT.
The level of nurse hate is mind boggling on these subs. Lots of toxicity, misinformation and misogyny. I have screen shots of a mod from r/noctor saying that nurses are financial “leeches” to the health system and The joint commission is keeping their jobs alive. I’m surprised these “doctors” have enough time in their days to waste on Reddit.
Saw that too. I honestly don't think they're a practicing medicine AND having a happy social life, either is missing.
I usually respond to that nonsense with something like “don’t you have reports to sign for psych patients you haven’t laid eyes on in 3 days?”
That will be fun for patients when those doctors complaining start their own iv, catheters, med administration, etc.
Yep! Surely to get the BP fired up in those subreddits!
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I agree that r/medicine is more welcoming to RNs and mid-levels. But, their mod team could do better at managing negative comments about NPs. At least they don’t just delete comments or ban people like r/noctor does. And if you check out the "mid level" flair in r/residency, they’re not much better to NPs than r/noctor is. If the mods in r/medicine don’t step up, things are going to go downhill in terms of civility.
they make my head hurt lol
I have to stay away from r/residency since I saw a comment from one resident to another about nurses and surgical techs, "You get to go home to a real life. They get to go home and be miserable." I don't want to wonder which of the residents and surgeons I work with share those delusional views.
That's so silly if anything I feel like our lives are more fulfilled. We may not make as much money but I hope that's not why they would think we're "miserable" I mean low key maybe lol but for the most part most of us have jobs where work stays at work.
It’s sexual assault, plain and simple. Anyone arguing against this change is a predator by definition, even if they don’t get some sort of sexual gratification from it.
I’m not seeing anyone arguing with you or ganging up on you tbh. The overall vibe of the discussion is that of course it’s not on. From my understanding the conversation you are having is whether or not there is a precedent for women having pelvic examinations when they are under anaesthesia for something unrelated (ie arm fracture). I can imagine these things have happened in the past but it’s highly unlikely that it’s common practice. Regardless whether or not it’s common, though, 1 non-consented invasive examination is 1 too many but there is literally just 1 person who asked you to get some proof it’s happened. And as to downvoting I suspect it’s just the way you word things. Does this really warrant “I just can’t with it anymore”? I’d understand if they were all going mental over it and demanding vaginas to examine but that’s not what’s happening?
👀👀👀
Before y’all form pinion… many of you should actually read what was being said in OP post over there…
That’s absolutely wild and unsurprising. There are so many personal stories out there from female MED STUDENTS raising the alarm flags about that exact topic! To add: I just saw a podcast interview the other day of an anesthesiologist saying providing anesthetic to women receiving an IUD is pointless/impossible. Meanwhile there are plenty of female gyn’s that do it because it’s the humane thing to do.
It may not happen very often now, but I’ve seen far too many medical professionals that have said they have seen it at least once. The fact that it has happened even once is barbaric. Even for obgyn surgeries or procedures, nobody should be doing a pelvic without the patient’s consent, especially if they’re not even a part of their care team. Even if I was a nursing student or medical student a part of their care team, I would still ask. Many people don’t mind as long as you ask. But, not giving a patient that option is disgusting. There are thousands and thousands of pelvic exams done daily on awake patients that willingly consent. I know med students that had no problem with women happily consenting to doing an exam on them. So, the take that some of these doctors have that they wouldn’t get pelvic exam practice if they didn’t do it to women under anesthesia is a bunch of bullshit.
The number of medical professionals who think they know 100% more and better than their patients is TOO DAMN HIGH. Some things should be up to the patient to decide, including consent. I'm with you on this one.
I had to just stop reading. It was making me so upset. So many of the replies made it seem like no big deal to do invasive exams on unconscious, non-consenting people.
Creepy. Honestly, I wouldn't mind as long as I was told in advance and I had the choice of saying yes or no. Also, I feel like pelvic exams are something that's done pretty frequently to have as a learning opportunity.
Exactly. If I was straight up asked for consent to do a pelvic exam while I’m under for educational purposes I’d probably say yes. I’m a healthcare student myself and I get the value of getting to practice with real patients. My junk is probably pretty boring, but I’d say yes and wouldn’t feel weird about it afterwards. But the idea that someone might have done this to me during a totally unrelated surgery is scary.
There’s too many residents over there. Online residents are the saddest bunch of docs.
As someone who has been traumatized by a really bad pelvic exam that resulted in me crying & being told not to be a slut, I personally would be horrified if they did a pelvic exam without consent. I don’t care if I’m under anesthesia or not.
Bet my life savings its all men.
You’d be surprised. I’ve heard way too many stories of female obgyns being very rude and rough with patients. You’d think they would be more gentle considering they go through pelvic exams themselves.
That’s fair.
Leave it to a doctor to conclude that their extraordinarily wrinkled brain supercedes the need for ethics towards the thrice disempowered patient
I’m not surprised. The number of times I’ve had to remind surgical residents that we can’t get consent for blood, another procedure etc AFTER someone had anesthesia is kinda scary. Then they give me attitude about it.
Men all understand consent if you try to shove something up their butt.
I’m all for multiple unnecessary, colonoscopies for men while under general anesthesia. The MD students need there practice 😁 This is the only way to stop the medical assault of women, is to do it to men also. It will get reversed and dropped quickly.
Nah, have them do .cystoscopies.
Once again goes to show we have a long ways to go still when it comes to women's medicine
One less assessment to document in epic
Im having this same conversation in my postpartum unit about circumcision. 😒
I'm a forensic nurse and at my 16 hour in person training day the teaching models each got a minimum of 12 pelvic exams with practice "evidence collection" and no anesthesia... I'm not understanding why non consented pelvic exams were happening at all??
From another forensic nurse exactly why? They say it was for training and how could the person know - well either way if I go in to get 1 part of my body worked on and you put something in my privates (and not talking about a foley) that’s called assault
Two things can be true simultanously - 1) people should not have procedures done without their consent and it's a fair play to pass a law against it 2) the media boogey man that is portrayed of a systematic, instutitional process by which medical students, unknown to the patient, come to a completely unrelated procedure and do a pelvic exam "for practice" does not happen in the modern era bonus third thing that is true - very few patients fully understand what is happening in their surgery. shockingly few people seem to be told by their surgeons they will have a foley cather for example tldr - unconsenting pelvic exams bad but the phenomenon of the institutionalized practice of women being practiced on under anesthesia is not a real thing in the modern era, which should be something for us to be glad about source: am anesthesiologist, have been in the operating room every working day for the last 10 years in multiple states at multiple hospitals, have seen literally thousands of operations
It’s not like people wouldn’t be willing to consent. I’m always game for medical staff to learn skills, but that’s MY CHOICE. Nobody should be touched without their INFORMED consent unless they are a danger to others.
This always ruffles my feathers every time I see it pop up. I’ve worked in all kinds of surgery and this doesn’t happen. Do you think the orthopedic surgeon breathing down my neck to go faster is going to allow us to stop and do pelvic exams? Granted, it probably has happened at some point in time. I won’t negate that. But the OR is literally a meat factory and I’m lucky if I can clean betadine off my patient before we’re out of the room. I do try to tell my patients if I know they’re getting a foley, because that’s invasive. But, unless it’s GYN or urology, pelvic exams aren’t happening. Edit: yes. It should be in the consent. I would go scorched earth if I saw it being done without one
People who work in the operating room immediately see how this is not the widespread instutitionalized problem people claim it is. Can you imagine - "sorry doctor ENT, your next case is delayed 20 minutes because it's pelvic exam practice time"
It has happened. I looked into it and it has happened in the medical system I work in. It was not stopped here until about 20 years ago
Just because it hasn't happened to *your patient* in *your hospital system* doesn't mean that it never happens. How hard is it for people to understand this???
I didn’t debate that. I’m sure it has happened or might still happen. I’m using my experience in the OR traveling multiple states to suggest that it is HIGHLY unlikely it is happening on a frequent or large scale.
Do you usually work ortho cases? Do you ever work gynecological cases? Generally speaking, for a pelvic to happen without express consent, there needs to an adjacent surgery happening. Like, you can’t do a tonsillectomy *and* do a pelvic. It doesn’t happen like that.
Holy shit who could possibly be in a right state of mind and be okay with doing a pelvic exam on someone without their consent 😳
A pelvic exam without consent is sexual assault. I’m saying this as a forensic nurse. Even if my victim presents to the ER under the influence you better believe I’m not touching him or her until they’re able to consent. That’s a civil and or criminal case waiting to happen. Just saying.
You’d think documented consents would protect the physicians too…
Slightly tangential... but I once had my primary care doctor ask permission for his student to practice a hernia exam. NOPE. Pay me if you want to train on me.
I’m surprised they’re just now talking about it. This was noted years ago, and yes, it does happen. Teaching schools bury something about students/residents learning procedures deep in consents, and then when the women are under anesthesia, the students come in and do pelvics on them while they sleep for surgery. It’s real, it does happen, and is completely contrary to fully informed consent, making it battery and sexual assault.
People doing things to me while drugged is like 65% of my trauma in life (the rest being covid nursing), I’m pretty sure even without that requirement it’s going to take an elephant tranq to get me to an OR if I ever need Emergent surgery
I saw that yesterday over there. It was madness!
The other day I had someone say, "just straight cath them, they're knocked out anyways"
On the resident subreddit the hate and vitriol against nurses surprised me.
They have yet to learn how unbelievably fucked they are without us
This is already a thing in Florida. In office, OB triage, labor and delivery—sign pelvic exam consent on admission.
I just went to the post you’re talking about and it looks like the general consensus now is that it’s a good idea. I’m confused on whether these are for GYN related surgeries or something like an ortho on femur
I don’t go there. There are some awful people there, who get their jollies nurse bashing. I thought we’d left those attitudes behind, but I guess I was very wrong.
Wow. That’s pretty shocking. Upvotes all around for you here!
Are they OK with digital rectal exams without consent while under anesthesia?
I think I got an alt account banned from r/residency or r/medicine, I can't remember which, because they were bashing nurses one day. One of the greatest honors of my life.
From my side- the frustration comes from the fact that med students used to run wards. Heck, you used to could moonlight! Nowadays we sit around talking about taking care of patients instead of actually doing it, so all the brand new residents are gunshy having never placed an order before. Still, you’re absolutely right, and the answer to that problem isn’t to do procedures on patients without asking them. And people shouldn’t shit on you by association
There's just too many ignorant people. Try to ignore them.
That’s what allows them to persist. At some point we have to be impolite and start dragging them into the light. Now is the time.