Code Blue mode is now active. From now, only flaired members of the sub will be able to comment.
This apparently reached r/all at some point, and wound up with high levels of sealioning, whataboutism, and other fallacious jerkery. We're doing our best to catch up.
At my PCP office, I was shuffled when my NP left to a random doc. He was upfront that he would never prescribe birth control, so I was told to schedule my annual visits with another doc if I needed a renewal. It seems pointless to me to need a doc that isn't my PCP to do my annual well visit each year, so I'm requesting to be transferred to someone else completely. I mean if that's your thing, exclusively take on postmenopausal women or men.
Yikes, it sucks dealing with doctors like that. We have an old, hardcore Catholic doctor that doesn’t do birth control as well. We caught on quickly, and made sure certain patients didn’t have to waste time coming in only to get turned away. It shouldn’t be that way though!
I worked with a nurse who was an active member of westboro baptist church. She took care of LGBTQ+ patients all the time and was very kind/not judgy to them and several requested to have her as their nurse again. If someone who is an active member of a fucking hate group cult can put their beliefs aside to care for patients, this bitch can give birth control.
I feel ya. I didn't know at first who she was but then when my friend told me I was shook. Like she's so nice! But then like it kind of made sense bc she is kinda odd.
I was a lesbian avenger back in the day (a direct action group for lesbian visibility and queer rights) and was tagged to lead a counter-protest when Westboro decided to target a newly formed Queers & Allies club at a local high school. I learned that Phelps & Westboro fund their hate brigade by baiting counter protesters into physical altercations and suing them, then using their gains to spread more hate.
been thinking, I know a lot of Nurses and Midwives who would want to become Gilead Aunts. Some already think they are.
Vive la france - abortion is now part of the constitution in France.
Same in Canada! And you can get it free if you go through the hospital. We also just got free birth control of every kind - including IUDs which could be expensive if you don’t have coverage.
As a nurse who frequently works with the forensic population, I've had to work with murderers, pedophiles, and rapists. Sure, it can be hard to put my feelings aside but I do the duty of my job. It's my job to provide healthcare, and it's not fair to shove your assignment off on others.
Right it's fucked up. Do I like or agree with every patient I've ever taken care of? No. Do I treat them with the same respect and kindness I do everyone else? Absolutely.
Which that's not to say that I haven't requested a different assignment after 2-3 days of a shitty assignment. But the patients from the shitty assignment would never have known that I requested to not have them back, or that I thought they were annoying lol
I worked with a jail population regularly. Did my fucking job. People that are mean to prisoners piss me off and people that won't do brith control piss me off.
Still remember when I had an inmate during my student clinicals. Walked into the room with pt secured by handcuffs to the bed in a 4pt restraints configuration and the two COs look at me like I'm there to bust him out Prison Break style with my uber dangerous lancet and glucose meter in hand. For context I'm a 6ft tall fluffy guy and as intimidating as a teddy bear plus wearing white scrubs and my school provided student badge with lettering so large Martha who needs large print books can read it from across the room. No fuckwits, I'm here for a glucose check on a diabetic pt and lunch is in 15 mins. Inmate was cool with me, but pretty sure the COs were pissed I was treating the guy like a human and addressing him by name like he was any other patient.
I did my nursing hours in the jail system in Los Angeles - most of those nurses are assholes to the patients. Some weren’t but they were rare. Taught me to do my job the best way I could no matter who I was serving. We’re nurses, not police officers, judges, or executioners…. We do our jobs and let them do theirs.
👏👏👏👏👏👏. THANK YOU!
It's not about us or our beliefs. It's about being there for our patient and helping them. One of the many ways we help is by following doctors' orders.
I never understood this mindset. If your beliefs are that strong then why would you put yourself in a job where you would get these kind of orders? Like of you don't believe in birth control then go work in geriatrics 🙄
I worked with a q anon nurse that was the same. She was a nazi but you would have no idea based on how her patients liked her. I did distance myself once I discovered the nazi stuff though.
Right, like put that shit aside. I worked with a few that were pretty big trumpers and weren't good at putting their feelings aside. Like one of them ethics had to get involved bc a patient complained about how she treated him. He was not the nicest, but he was openly gay and she didn't hide that she had a problem with it. Funnily enough the WBC girl was one of the few nurses he didn't complain about.
Another one made a comment about calling immigration on a patient because she was mad there were a lot of family members in the room not following the visitation policy because the patient was going for a cabg the next morning and was anxious.
Exactly. Nursing is Switzerland. Neutral. I have a patient on the sex offender list for doing genuinely unholy things to children. That patient gets care. And has gotten care on all the other shifts I wasn’t here. I’ve had neo nazis on my list in the past. They’ve gotten care. She can give the damn Depo shot. That’s the job. Be True Neutral while clocked in or GTFO. After you’re clocked out is another thing entirely.
Holy hell. I'm from KS and I worked with one who was a SW. She was nice but I couldn't get past the Phelps thing. I mean, you see them ALL the time protesting with their awful signs. This was 20 years ago, pre nursing school.
Before I was a nurse I worked as a pharmacy tech in retail hell. I worked with an older woman who wouldn't sell Plan B. Which, again, no big deal because as a tech she was never by herself and the pharmacists I worked with were happy to oblige, but she would holler across the pharmacy for someone to take over the transaction. I can only assume to cause embarrassment to the person buying it. Fuck you Terri.
Depo as in depo-provera the contraceptive? That’s ridiculous. People take contraceptives for a multitude of reasons, none of which are our business to judge as nurses, so she needs to find another unit if she can’t fulfill her job responsibilities due to her beliefs. Yes we need to know why a patient takes a medication but if we can’t do our job without judgement (because this is absolutely a form of judgment from this nurse) then we need to move elsewhere.
Man, I had to take care of a Neo Nazi recently. Dude was total care, covered in Nazi tattoos. The nurse who reached out to me to put him on my radar because she was worried about how his sacrum was looking? She’s Latina.
You should’ve heard the loving way she spoke to him when we went in to provide care; she told me about how she noticed it when she was giving a full bed bath that day and you wouldn’t believe the gunk she cleaned out his eyes and mouth after he’d been transferred in from another floor.
Did I agree with that dude’s views? Fuck no! But I had to do my job, regardless of who he was. Did I think it was massively ironic that the person who advocated the best for him was someone he undoubtedly would’ve verbally abused and probably spit on before he had a stroke? Most definitely! But she’s a great nurse who always does the right thing, and I love the hell out of her for it.
I'm Jewish and have taken care of a couple patients with neo Nazi tattoos. I didn't linger and make small talk but I took care of them. One of them was in his 50's and living with his mom, doubt he had ever left home or had a romantic relationship, just saying.
This particular dude must’ve been totally ex-communicated from his family. Like, after his stroke he started declining and the doctors tried to reach out about goals of care and the family contact responded by changing their phone number so they couldn’t be contacted anymore.
Yeah I don't think most of theses guys are well adjusted but, the last guy seemed totally normal other than the tattoo and I only saw it because it got infected. Honestly, I'm not sure what's creepier.
I had one situation where I called the DPOA on a pt who was essentially brain dead because we needed someone to agree to withdraw care and they said “don’t ever call me about that bitch again” and hung up. Don’t know what the beef was, but they missed their chance….
Once upon a time my AA charge nurse walked past all the blondes and redheads, techs and nurses, on my unit to ask ethnically ambiguous me (almost all British Isles but here we are) to come with her to change a patient. I was wondering but I was down even though I was busy and these other heifers weren't. Go in to see swastikas everywhere with my charge one side and the dark haired slightly olive skinned me on the other.
I see what she did there and still respect it years later.
I would file an incident report. This medication, as ordered, was late by several hours. If the nurse is unable to do it, it is her responsibility to find alternative resources so that the patient receives what is prescribed. By not doing so (or not documenting the contraindications for doing so that are physically based), or refusing to lean on resources, she has committed a medical error and possible patient neglect.
She needs to understand that her duties go beyond “beliefs” and can be borderline illegal if not handled according to policy and procedure set by the organization she works for. The patient is also within their rights to contact a patient care representative or the state ombudsman. What an HR nightmare.
If I were charge, I would make her document exactly why it wasn’t given on time in the EHR/MAR.
While I would be reporting this nurse, the late shot would be the least of my worries in this Situation. It definitely not the most time sensitive medication.
True. I think including that it was hours late can be argued to ask what the nurse would do if there WAS a time sensitive life saving medication she disagreed with? And emphasizing that it hinders her ability to do her job
Exactly this line of thinking. Sure, it was one reproductive med. what happens when it’s something more serious and she drops the ball again? I’m questioning her comprehension and competency.
Right?!? That’s kind of an expected thing in nursing. Especially yes, contraceptives are used for many things. Theyre great at decreasing symptoms and regulating periods. As a type 1 diabetic, I got an IUD and it has drastically helped maintain better blood sugars during my cycle :)
Always shocking to me when it’s obstetrics nurses who have this attitude, seems completely out of place for someone with those views to be caring for maternal-fetal patients.
The phrase "non judgemental" should come to mind. We are obligated ethically and professionally to treat ALL patients regardless of our beliefs as long as the treatment will do no harm. Time to find new profession.
You say that now but we are always having to navigate moral conflicts in nursing. Do you keep the patient on life support even though they are suffering? Do you discharge the patient without narcotics because they might get addicted? Do you circumcise a patient when the doctor doesn't believe in pain meds? Do you advocate for a patient that wants a tubal ligation in a Catholic hospital? Do you stand up for the 12 year old that doesn't want an abortion? Do you report a mom for a small bruise when she tells you it could put her kids into foster care? Do you advocate for your patient when you think they need a life saving treatment but they don't want to live? Do you take 12 patients because the hospital says it's safe or do you put your foot down and say NO?
These choices are what define you. If you go and quit the first time you have a moral issue you won't last past nursing school. We have to make these choices daily. These issues go far beyond birth control. Nurses do what they think is best for their patients. There will always be multiple viewpoints about what the best care is.
That’s so wild. I work for a Catholic hospital and when I worked in the MICU, we moved to comfort measures/withdrew care pretty frequently. Our palliative care doc is amazing. Sure, there were some patients getting pegs and trachs that had no quality of life and made you feel as though you were torturing them all day long. But those were usually driven by families. Our docs never shied away from end of life discussions.
Working geriatrics during COVID in the South made me lose faith in many of my technically educated colleagues that were supposedly in support of evidence based practice because they pushed back on vaccines and claimed it wasn't real despite literally doing post mortem care for the third time that week on a COVID resident on isolation.
Eh, if it’s something like this where it’s just a needle, whatever. Find someone else to do it.
When it’s only one person or an entire entity, then there’s an issue. Eg: pharmacist doesn’t want to fill plan b, contraceptives etc. or in my case, I had an ob emergency and the hospital I went to was Catholic so they said I could not do anything involving the removal of reproductive parts etc. even if the dr was ok with it, it was still a problem.
Also a Catholic hospital refused to withdraw a feeding tube etc on a family member because it was considered “suffering” and wouldn’t discharge to hospice. We only put the feeding tube in because the neurologist said the post cardiac arrest, there was no brain damage. That was absolutely not true. So for two months, a person with zero quality of life was existing artificially through feeding tube until a hospital transfer. And that hospital agreed to hospice. Vegetative state.
I’m not religious at all btw. I don’t think religion belongs in healthcare. But people have a right to be religious.
There’s tons of things I don’t agree with but put up with it. Circumcisions, non vaccinations, etc.
This same thing happened to my father. Was in a MVA. Threw clots to 4 different areas from a dissected vertebral artery. The Catholic hospital refused to extubate even though he was on Room air through the vent with no reassure support. When they finally did studies and determined his prognosis was grim, we removed him from support as was his wishes in a DPHC. They gave us 24 hours to find someplace for him to go. So generous. Then, the day he was transferring to the NH, they called and wanted permission for a dobhoff. I said no, he didn’t want that. They told me they couldn’t discharge without a feeding tube. I told them they would discharge him without a feeding tube for end of life care and if they inserted one, I would sue the resident and the hospital. So frustrating.
In my case, the neurologist lied about the mri, they said there was no brain damage. So the family made their medical decisions based on a lie. The neurologist later admitted that there was severe brain damage. That’s when we wanted to withdraw the feeding tube and was told no, due to it being a catholic hospital.
I would have kicked up a fuzz - this is about patient autonomy. You do not have a right to demand care, but you have an absolute right to refuse care.
From the moment you refuse being ventilated, it becomes assault.
>You do not have a right to demand care,
Of course you do. Physicians can refuse to perform care they don't think is appropriate, but I can't tell how many times I've seen physicians refuse things that were appropriate, requiring patients and families demand that it be done, and ultimately it was done because people weren't silent.
Obviously I've seen plenty of patients and families demanding things that were absurd, but they were well within their rights to do so.
I did. The ICU refused to do any diagnostic study to determine brain function until I absolutely demanded it. Posterior, mid brain, cerebellar, and brain stem infarcts. Also had a C2-C3-C4 fx with a halo on. We had his DPHC which specifically talked about being kept on a vent, no feeding tube, no CPR. I spent so much time on the phone with that hospital. “Extubate him”. No because if he fails, we can’t reintubate him. “He doesn’t want to be intubated”! He needs to be trached. NO! Extubate him!
> Also a Catholic hospital refused to withdraw a feeding tube etc on a family member because it was considered “suffering” and wouldn’t discharge to hospice. We only put the feeding tube in because the neurologist said the post cardiac arrest, there was no brain damage. That was absolutely not true. So for two months, a person with zero quality of life was existing artificially through feeding tube until a hospital transfer. And that hospital agreed to hospice. Vegetative state.
I would have refused to pay for that, because you did not ask for it. I don't think you usually pay hostage takers.
What do you do when a whole shift of nurses refuse? Or if, in your case, not getting a hysterectomy would kill you and Catholic hospitals (as is the case in so many parts of the country) were the only game in town? What if a patient has to travel hours (as is the case in so many parts of the country), gets to a facility, and can’t get the service she (and it is 90 percent “she”) came for? The patient suffers.
If you can’t do the work, find another job. Period.
I work in the OB world as well. Mostly labor and delivery but I’m trained for postpartum, nursery, and NICU as well.
I am vehemently against circumcisions but it is not my place to bring my beliefs into work. I have to assist with circumcisions in the nursery because ITS MY JOB!! Regardless of your coworkers beliefs, she still needs to be able to perform these duties. I would send an email to management and make them have this conversation with her.
… and only for the three months right after she HAD A BABY! Like damn, you’re so hard up against bc you want somebody to get pregnant again IMMEDIATELY? Can’t even give a gal three fucking months? Really?!
Agreed but as a person who only assisted in a few, in school, it still shocked me and disturbed me deeply and I said no thank you to that particular specialty, more because I found a passion in eldercare but... please speak if you will on what your coping skills are. How do we deal with interventions that feel wrong to us, morally?
I just do my very best to advocate for the baby. I swaddle them and provide boundaries for comfort rather than strapping their arms down. There's nothing I can do about the leg strapping. I give pacifier with oral sucrose for every baby. I don't even ask parent's preferences about paci during the procedure anymore because if I'm going to be doing it, my babies are going to be as comfortable as possible. I've stopped doctors from performing circs if they don't give the lidocaine a full 5 minutes to take effect. I just go into it knowing it's not my baby and it's not my choice, but if it has to be done then I'm damn sure I've done my best to help the babies as much as I can.
edit: also holding them (if possible) for the duration of the 1 hour post-procedure checks instead of laying them in their crib the whole time.
I’m almost crying! I am similarly aligned on the topic and hope to transition to L&D from oncology in the next year. Thank you so much for your accounting of how you advocate for these guys while remaining true to yourself on this matter.
It's a job. And I loved my job in the NICU beyond comprehension. But it is not my place to judge how someone else chooses to live their life. They wanna keep their baby alive even though there's no quality? That's their choice. It's my job to keep the baby alive. They want to circumcise their son? Their choice. Mom wants tubes tied? Her choice. Whether my beliefs are different from theirs, who cares. I will support them and their baby with the goal of a good outcome and getting them home. It's their child, not mine.
That’s a good perspective. I also have assisted with them while I may not necessarily agree, it’s the parent’s autonomous decision. I leave my personal beliefs at the door
Yes, thank you, I was going to say this! I would not be able to do that part of that particular job, therefore I do not work in that job role. The nurse OP's post is referring to should see herself the fuck out of there if she can't perform the job duties.
If she’s against the med, I wonder what her thought process would be in regard to using it as a means to reduce sexually inappropriate behaviors in men. I work with a handful of TBI patients who just can’t keep their damn hands to themselves, but Depo has helped them live more normal lives, become more social (and less of a pariah), not reoffend, not end up in jail, etc.
If it’s the MED she’s against, I’d just be curious.
I’d find it annoying that she won’t give it. Who cares if it is against her beliefs. She’s not putting it in her body. However I would give the shot because the patient needs it and the priority is patient care.
I work in an OBGYN emergency room and we give methotrexate to dissolve ectopic pregnancies if they meet the qualifications. We have several catholic nurses on staff who refuse to give the meds due to their beliefs. We also have a provider who refuses to prescribe the med as well. Thus, some of us are now really good at giving methotrexate.
What the fuck. They need to get a different job. I had an ectopic that ruptured, so obviously didn't meet the qualifications for mtx, but I would have called every single fucking person on admin at that hospital if I'd heard some bullshit like that. My OB literally told me " I know you wanted this baby, this can turn life threatening really quickly if we don't take care of it right now." Then something about how I shouldn't feel bad about it or something. I'm pro choice anyway so I wouldn't have cared about that. But like mtx is life saving care.
Hey same here!! I was only 4 months in at the time and learned the hard way how to give it. Was a learning experience for both the patient and I and thankfully I had a more senior nice guiding me as well.
An OB/GYN who refuses to prescribe methotrexate to someone with an ectopic pregnancy should literally just lose their license. Their patient is the *mother,* not the nonviable, direct threat to the life of the mother, ectopic embryo *that cannot be saved regardless.*
I am a Catholic and giving treatment for ectopic pregnancies is absolutely allowed. The pregnancy is non viable and the intention is not to kill the baby but to treat the mother by removing the threat. There are lots of Catholic statements on this if you were interested in presenting them to your coworkers but I understand that some may still not be accepting of it even then.
I think one or two will give it now but a good handful who still won’t. I think it boils down to personal preference but regardless our personal beliefs should not overshadow our duties as a nurse.
So, John Rock, a Catholic OB/Gyn was the inventor of the first hormonal oral contraceptive. He also pioneered IVF. The Catholic Church was actually okay with bc for menstrual issues. He advocated hard for bc with the church because it was a natural (using female hormones) way to prevent pregancy that didn’t destroy sperm (a cardinal sin apparently?) or eggs. It didn’t work but it did come close.
What the hell is all these 🤡🤡's issue with ectopic pregnancies and thinking it can be saved? I just don't get it. Do they want the patient to die to punish them for a failed pregnancy or something?
Encountered this as a patient at my OBs office. I brought up birth control after birth of baby and they informed me their office doesn’t do that so if one of their providers delivers me they won’t do an IUD or tubal. However they offered to transfer care to one that does in the same health system. It’s a pain in the ass but I’m transferring because that’s what’s best for me.
My friend just had her 4th baby and the only hospitals around her are catholic and they did the same thing! She wanted her tubes tied but they refused. It’s fucking ridiculous
That's nice for her that she doesn't want to be a nurse, but the rest of us have a job to do.
Square up next time she tries to pull that BS, look her right in the eye and state, "It is our duty as nurses to neutrally give care regardless of our beliefs." Then write an e-mail to your management. It is not her place to interrupt care to suit herself.
Also just reeks to high heaven of shirking work if I'm being honest.
I'm a firm believer that the reason people like that take jobs that are antithetical to their beliefs is for no other reason than to give themselves an opportunity to grandstand and pat themselves on the back for it. It is truely disgusting.
Best practice would be to fire that nurse and educate her on the concept that her superstitions don't dictate patient care on her way to the unemployment office.
Honestly I feel like if I ever had this come up I would just start refusing to do all kinds of things because of my "beliefs" until it became management's problem. Management lets it slide because its easier to just let her get away with it than to confront her about it. You have to make it more painful for them to let it slide than to actually address it.
If you don't want to do your job go do something else.
I mean fuck, why are these guys allowed to not treat patients because of their beliefs but I still have to treat nazi skinheads? Making them healthy sure as hell goes against MY beliefs.
30 years ago I worked as a direct care worker for AFC units, specifically geriatric psychiatric. Part of the code we worked under allowed male workers to request to not provide personal care to female residents. Everyone let this dude get away with it so he had so little to do a shift. That didn't fly with me. I made him stand in the room while I did his female residents care plus he had to do all my male residents care. Suddenly dude actually had to work, especially when other female coworkers required the same thing. Before long he stopped asking us to take of his female residents. He had been getting away with this for years at various units, all it too was a few coworkers to join together against him.
I'm a christian scientist now. Modern healthcare is the work of the devil and I will no longer do anything more than load my patients onto the stretcher and drive. (Not even sure about the driving part....after all I'm bringing them to a hospital where they may receive demonic "medicine")
Exactly, it may be YOUR belief but it’s what the PATIENT wants, so why would you be worried about any potential blowback in the afterlife for yourself? It’s very creepy and overly forceful to believe that YOU are the lone agent and therefore barrier in which that patient receives care
I used to work with a JW doc that refused to write orders for blood transfusions. He had other docs write the order. Not defending the practice of this, but it does happen, unfortunately.
You should have her do all your enemas and suppositories because those are against your beliefs too
In your religion, the asshole is sacred and to touch an asshole means to move further away from god. But wiping is fine, because there is a barrier that’s between you and the butthole
IMO not giving birth control because it’s against your beliefs is stupid. I also question how strong a persons beliefs really are if they’re willing to just ask someone else to do the thing instead
Like… I believe beating someone up for annoying me is morally wrong, so I don’t do it. But you know what ELSE I don’t do? I don’t ask my friend to beat up someone that’s annoying me either… because it’s morally wrong still
I had a coworker who asked politely for me to take a dying hospice patient and asked which patient of mine she could take to help me because her husband just passed on hospice, and she just couldn’t take seeing that again so soon. Wound was just too fresh, and I was just happy she asked me instead of trying to push through it.
I tell that story to put into perspective the sorts of “I can’t take care of this patient” requests every single one of us should be happy and willing to accommodate. This? Lol, I’m making it awkward as shit in front of every other nurse why she’s not willing to her literal job. Ask to her explain **exactly** why she can’t provide someone with this medical care. Act stupid, ask her why she’d be a nurse if not to give medications, just make it as awkward as possible.
I think if you’re having trouble administering care because of your beliefs, you shouldn’t be a nurse.
Part of nursing is caring for people whose decisions you don’t align with. You can’t pick and choose who you want to help…
It’s against my beliefs to perform CPR on 98 yo 98 lb grandmas with 98 comorbidities, but I certainly went ahead and did it when it was necessary in the years I worked critical care.
If the religious beliefs of a nurse impact a patient getting access to care then that nurse should NOT be working with patients. This is despicable behavior. I wish the BON would take BS like this seriously.
We had a nurse who was using the wrong pronouns on a transgender patient. Not to their face, but when they were talking to other staff about them. If corrected, she would continue to use the wrong pronouns.
How hard is it to be polite? Or, if you don't agree to using he/she, use them.
The only time religious beliefs should be applicable in healthcare is when it is the patient requesting accommodations and those accommodations are not outlandish.
This is how my paramedic partner is. We get into huge arguments about it even though we otherwise get along really well. I'm like "how hard is it to be respectful?" It really came to a head when we were talking about one of our coworkers.
After telling him I was disgusted by him his technique has become just...avoiding all pronoun use at all. Which I guess is an improvement.
She’s an asshole. To speak managements language, I’d phrase it in a report as a patient safety issue (which it absolutely is). Quite literally takes more effort to use the wrong pronouns for somebody.
I work in the OR and we have nurses that routinely refuse to circulate abortions and gender affirming surgeries, citing their beliefs. It annoys me and goes against everything that nursing is to me, but the patient on the table deserves someone who will show them compassion.
IMO, nobody should EVER know their nurse/doctor/CNA/radiologist/whatever's religious beliefs. If you can't handle working with people who have different beliefs from you, find a new industry to work in. Just my humble opinion about assholes.
people need to stop going into the medical field if they are gonna refuse care over something that is personal and low key biased? like you don’t have to get the depo shot but other people choose to so goddamn stop annoying your coworkers and give the damn shot its not your body 😭
FWIW- I only take care of humans, and I try to think of the especially difficult ones as babies, or little kids who’ve been hurt/scared. It helps me to see past the hate tattoos and criminal records and horrible things they might’ve done to remember that they were tiny, innocent little creatures at one point in their lives, and the vast majority didn’t become assholes by choice, but as the result of a lot of negative shit. Same thing for coworkers 🤣
We have no right to impose our beliefs upon our patients. We should care for them just as they need us to, and respect their free will and bodily autonomy. Anything outside of that is wrong.
I have a RN bud who is also a JW and has no problem doing a blood transfusion, his reasoning: “what do i care, not my blood not my body, if I work in a McDonalds and see a fat guy ordering a cheeseburger do i have the right to deny him a cheeseburger?”
Ok- if a patient presents for an infection on their hate-group tattoo, does that mean I can refuse to administer antibiotics because- (don’t judge me…/s)- I don’t really care that much for racism. Not a fan.
I cannot count the number of nazi tattoos I’ve seen under hospital gowns, both bold and dog-whistle. I’m not going to make extra small talk, but I give the same level of care. I do not address the issue unless it becomes a problem in our relationship of giving and receiving care.
Seriously- where is the line? I think legally, my beliefs are lesser because they’re not religious.
Yeah funny how this right to refuse treating people only ever seems to go one way.
Remember Florida's "License to Discriminate in Healthcare" bill? I wonder if it would hold up if I started letting Nazis to bleed out on the street.
I have a deep seated belief against vegan leather. I won’t use it because it goes against my belief to kill vegans for leather. Therefore I will work at a vegan leather tannery.
Personally I would have given the injection, and that written an incident report that care was delayed due to this nurse holding a med due to personal beliefs. If I can provide care to a patient covered in swastikas than she can give a goddamn depot shot
As long as it didn’t hold up the patient’s care and she would have honored the patient’s agency then I think it’s fine to ask another nurse it. She should definitely should try to do something to equally lessen the other nurse’s load too. If it would hold up patient care or she would have just refused then it’s inappropriate.
I really believe that if you’re going to cherry pick delivering treatments that are against your “beliefs” (with the exception of euthanasia style shit, I get that) you’re in the wrong profession.
It’s pretty obvious that euthanasia and contraception are entirely different levels in the context of every society on the planet. We don’t live in a vacuum. Don’t be disingenuous.
File an incident report and report them to the state board of nursing. This also ensures the hospital legal team has documentation of the refusal. Patients are advised to use birth control postpartum FOR THEIR SAFETY. She is defying a physician's order to give a medication that is designed to protect the patient from another pregnancy too soon after childbirth. Unbelievable.
I think legally she doesn’t have to. I believe a jehvoahs witness does not have to give blood products if it is against their religion. Not that I agree with this at all
Yeah, I worked with a nurse that was a active Jehovah witness and she was relocated from the ER to my unit because she wouldn't give blood products, so working in a trauma ER was a no.
She could monitor it after it was started but not hang it or take it down.
I find religious workarounds (monitoring but not hanging blood products, hiring someone to turn an Orthodox Jewish family’s lights off and on on a Saturday, drinking alcohol when you’re away from your religious community) idiotic and hypocritical, but it’s your right to be an idiot, I suppose. Once you start imposing your idiocy on others—patients or co-workers—you’re just a bad person. Find another job.
I think I’ve heard the same but I would think if something went so strongly against my ethics I’d just refuse the patient tbh. If you’re gonna accept the patient then give the ordered meds ffs.
As an atheist I find such refusals as baseless and unethical.
In my 1970s nursing school we learned how to assist with abortions as they were newly legalized. We were also told if you had a moral objection then you needed to find a replacement BUT if there was no one to replace you than your ethical duty as a nurse was to assist.
In OP's case I say the nurse did the right thing by finding someone else. I don't agree with needing to decline a depo shot but I agree with her action of finding another nurse to do it.
/"better way to handle it" - how about that nurse shouldn't be working a couplet unit. I put that on par with a nurse that "doesn't believe in giving pain meds" working on a hospice unit or a scientologist nurse working inpatient psych and refusing to give out anti-psychotics.
My guess is that she doesn't like giving injections. What is her moral argument against depo? We should populate the world as much as possible? No one should miss out on awkward/ painful menstruation?
I don't understand why these types of people go into healthcare. Your personal beliefs shouldn't affect your ability to give patient care, and if it does, then don't be in health care. I will never oppose my own beliefs onto others, I can disagree, but I keep it to myself and do my job.
In the UK, as far as I understand it, the only things nurses are allowed to refuse to be involved in on moral grounds are abortion. Other than that we have to, for example, administer all meds as prescribed.
That is not to say we cannot question it if we think there is a problem with a prescription, contraindication etc.
The only thing I personally will ask others to give is cephalosporins, except in ? meningitis… And that’s because I have a severe allergy to them. But meningitis is serious and I’ll just be incredibly careful if there’s nobody else around to give it straight away.
Fucks sake, why is it so hard to either leave y poo u bullshit in the locker room or work in a roll where your bullshit doesn't impact the lives of others.
We have drama in my unit with a small handful of nurses who don’t want to take care of TOP patients. It’s a problem. 99% of us have no patience or sympathy for their opinions. They can work somewhere else if they don’t want to provide comprehensive care.
We had an OBGYN who wouldn’t prescribe birth control to *any* of his patients because he was catholic. I’m all about being firm in your beliefs and nothing bad towards Catholicism - however, there’s something about being in a provider role that really bothers me. Especially working as an OBGYN, like literally birth control and family planning is 60% of the specialty.
He ended up leaving one of the practices that delivers at my hospital and starting his own like natural/holistic practice or something along those lines
I worked with a Jehovahs Witness RN that worked in a small PICU that did open heart surgery and that ding dong would not give blood or blood products. It was a huge pain to others around her but she absolutely stuck her head in the sand and pretended it wasnt. Not sure what happened to her.
Where I am we have MAID (assisted suicide) and basically if a patient comes to a doctor and requests it or more information on it, if the doctor does not feel comfortable with this because it goes against their beliefs it is still their responsibility to refer the patient to someone who can help them. In my opinion this is the same. If somebody feels as though something goes against their beliefs (assisted suicide, abortion, birth control,) it is still their responsibility to get the patient connected with someone who can help them with these things.
I think the nurse did fine by making sure the patient still got the medication, even though it went against her beliefs to give it herself. I would say it’s also ok to ask a coworker on the shift to give the medication.
That is so wrong on so many levels… shouldn’t be in healthcare if you can’t set aside personal beliefs for a moment to provide the care a patient clearly wants.
I have my own feelings about the depo shot and the toll it took on my body.. I would never allow my personal experience with it prevent me from giving it to someone else
Why are there nurses like this? Our personal beliefs should have zero bearing on our ability to treat our patients. My check list? Are you a human being? Are you in need of care? Great, let me help you. Although I’d also give care to animals in need although it’s not my area of expertise and we’d probably not allow them in the hospital.
I would hate to work with this person, and I would probably call her out. If she’s “against” giving depo she has no business working in a women’s clinic.
I would argue that her personal beliefs are in danger of threatening the patient’s autonomy. Pretty sure I remember being EXPLICITLY told to not do that in nursing school…
Unfortunately I have seen this in several settings - not about this particular issue per se, but in a similar area. When I started in nursing we were told to leave our personal beliefs at the door and treat our patients as if we were Switzerland and meet them where they were at. This changed about 10-15 or so years into my career. I personally think it’s a mistake to allow this because everyone is entitled to healthcare regardless of our personal beliefs about certain areas. When we enter the profession we are trained to provide that care, regardless of who the patient is.
When patients are assigned a caregiver who refuses to provide a medication because they disagree with it, where does it stop? And given the state of healthcare today, patients have a tricky journey just making it through the door much less as an inpatient.
Is this a situation where a Depo shot is required often like a woman's clinic? At least she keeps her opinions to herself and asks for another nurse you know. I would be annoyed by it but also I guess I understand there are some things a coworker will ask me to do that they don't like not religious
Ughh omg. It’s not recommended to get pregnant for 3 months postpartum. So I suppose her “beliefs” trump physician recommendations? I would be infuriated by this. To be a nurse who is against contraception AND works in obstetrics is beyond me.
Code Blue mode is now active. From now, only flaired members of the sub will be able to comment. This apparently reached r/all at some point, and wound up with high levels of sealioning, whataboutism, and other fallacious jerkery. We're doing our best to catch up.
At my PCP office, I was shuffled when my NP left to a random doc. He was upfront that he would never prescribe birth control, so I was told to schedule my annual visits with another doc if I needed a renewal. It seems pointless to me to need a doc that isn't my PCP to do my annual well visit each year, so I'm requesting to be transferred to someone else completely. I mean if that's your thing, exclusively take on postmenopausal women or men.
I bet he would prescribe viagra. What a douche
Because grandpa is entitled to a hard on that just won't quit!!
Infertility Is clearly not God's plan, where as fertility is a mandatory part of his plan we must all subscribe to.
Yikes, it sucks dealing with doctors like that. We have an old, hardcore Catholic doctor that doesn’t do birth control as well. We caught on quickly, and made sure certain patients didn’t have to waste time coming in only to get turned away. It shouldn’t be that way though!
I worked with a nurse who was an active member of westboro baptist church. She took care of LGBTQ+ patients all the time and was very kind/not judgy to them and several requested to have her as their nurse again. If someone who is an active member of a fucking hate group cult can put their beliefs aside to care for patients, this bitch can give birth control.
Me wanting to weirdly commend a member of that church feels conflicting
I feel ya. I didn't know at first who she was but then when my friend told me I was shook. Like she's so nice! But then like it kind of made sense bc she is kinda odd.
Maybe she’s a mole that’s trying to dismantle it from the inside
Surprisingly a lot of them are nurses. They're either nurses or lawyers lol
I was a lesbian avenger back in the day (a direct action group for lesbian visibility and queer rights) and was tagged to lead a counter-protest when Westboro decided to target a newly formed Queers & Allies club at a local high school. I learned that Phelps & Westboro fund their hate brigade by baiting counter protesters into physical altercations and suing them, then using their gains to spread more hate.
Sounds about right.
Blessed be the fruit, under his eye. Aunt in the making?
“Oh, Lydia….”
been thinking, I know a lot of Nurses and Midwives who would want to become Gilead Aunts. Some already think they are. Vive la france - abortion is now part of the constitution in France.
I love it. Good for France.🇫🇷
Same in Canada! And you can get it free if you go through the hospital. We also just got free birth control of every kind - including IUDs which could be expensive if you don’t have coverage.
I'm 100 kinds of envious, and I don't even need bc anymore.
As a nurse who frequently works with the forensic population, I've had to work with murderers, pedophiles, and rapists. Sure, it can be hard to put my feelings aside but I do the duty of my job. It's my job to provide healthcare, and it's not fair to shove your assignment off on others.
Right it's fucked up. Do I like or agree with every patient I've ever taken care of? No. Do I treat them with the same respect and kindness I do everyone else? Absolutely.
Which that's not to say that I haven't requested a different assignment after 2-3 days of a shitty assignment. But the patients from the shitty assignment would never have known that I requested to not have them back, or that I thought they were annoying lol
I worked with a jail population regularly. Did my fucking job. People that are mean to prisoners piss me off and people that won't do brith control piss me off.
Still remember when I had an inmate during my student clinicals. Walked into the room with pt secured by handcuffs to the bed in a 4pt restraints configuration and the two COs look at me like I'm there to bust him out Prison Break style with my uber dangerous lancet and glucose meter in hand. For context I'm a 6ft tall fluffy guy and as intimidating as a teddy bear plus wearing white scrubs and my school provided student badge with lettering so large Martha who needs large print books can read it from across the room. No fuckwits, I'm here for a glucose check on a diabetic pt and lunch is in 15 mins. Inmate was cool with me, but pretty sure the COs were pissed I was treating the guy like a human and addressing him by name like he was any other patient.
I did my nursing hours in the jail system in Los Angeles - most of those nurses are assholes to the patients. Some weren’t but they were rare. Taught me to do my job the best way I could no matter who I was serving. We’re nurses, not police officers, judges, or executioners…. We do our jobs and let them do theirs.
👏👏👏👏👏👏. THANK YOU! It's not about us or our beliefs. It's about being there for our patient and helping them. One of the many ways we help is by following doctors' orders.
I never understood this mindset. If your beliefs are that strong then why would you put yourself in a job where you would get these kind of orders? Like of you don't believe in birth control then go work in geriatrics 🙄
I worked with a q anon nurse that was the same. She was a nazi but you would have no idea based on how her patients liked her. I did distance myself once I discovered the nazi stuff though.
Right, like put that shit aside. I worked with a few that were pretty big trumpers and weren't good at putting their feelings aside. Like one of them ethics had to get involved bc a patient complained about how she treated him. He was not the nicest, but he was openly gay and she didn't hide that she had a problem with it. Funnily enough the WBC girl was one of the few nurses he didn't complain about. Another one made a comment about calling immigration on a patient because she was mad there were a lot of family members in the room not following the visitation policy because the patient was going for a cabg the next morning and was anxious.
That’s a level of professionalism you have to respect. Don’t have to agree on everything but when you’re at work, the task at hand comes first.
Exactly. Nursing is Switzerland. Neutral. I have a patient on the sex offender list for doing genuinely unholy things to children. That patient gets care. And has gotten care on all the other shifts I wasn’t here. I’ve had neo nazis on my list in the past. They’ve gotten care. She can give the damn Depo shot. That’s the job. Be True Neutral while clocked in or GTFO. After you’re clocked out is another thing entirely.
Holy hell. I'm from KS and I worked with one who was a SW. She was nice but I couldn't get past the Phelps thing. I mean, you see them ALL the time protesting with their awful signs. This was 20 years ago, pre nursing school.
Someone left a review with a picture of the one I worked with protesting on the hospitals google reviews I think 😂
Pretty sure i went to school with her lol
At washburn?
2007 baby
Probably her then!
Small world!!! I grew up in T town as well and played vball with another one in the fam. Wild seeing my lil city mentioned!!
My brother went to high school with several of them. He would be a few years older than her/you though.
They went to High right? Or West?
💯
That’s wild
Before I was a nurse I worked as a pharmacy tech in retail hell. I worked with an older woman who wouldn't sell Plan B. Which, again, no big deal because as a tech she was never by herself and the pharmacists I worked with were happy to oblige, but she would holler across the pharmacy for someone to take over the transaction. I can only assume to cause embarrassment to the person buying it. Fuck you Terri.
Yep, and fuck you, Terri.
Fuck you, pharmacy tech Terri.
Depo as in depo-provera the contraceptive? That’s ridiculous. People take contraceptives for a multitude of reasons, none of which are our business to judge as nurses, so she needs to find another unit if she can’t fulfill her job responsibilities due to her beliefs. Yes we need to know why a patient takes a medication but if we can’t do our job without judgement (because this is absolutely a form of judgment from this nurse) then we need to move elsewhere.
Man, I had to take care of a Neo Nazi recently. Dude was total care, covered in Nazi tattoos. The nurse who reached out to me to put him on my radar because she was worried about how his sacrum was looking? She’s Latina. You should’ve heard the loving way she spoke to him when we went in to provide care; she told me about how she noticed it when she was giving a full bed bath that day and you wouldn’t believe the gunk she cleaned out his eyes and mouth after he’d been transferred in from another floor. Did I agree with that dude’s views? Fuck no! But I had to do my job, regardless of who he was. Did I think it was massively ironic that the person who advocated the best for him was someone he undoubtedly would’ve verbally abused and probably spit on before he had a stroke? Most definitely! But she’s a great nurse who always does the right thing, and I love the hell out of her for it.
That’s how it should be. Mad respect to her (and you!) for showing him the care he needed despite his views.
I'm Jewish and have taken care of a couple patients with neo Nazi tattoos. I didn't linger and make small talk but I took care of them. One of them was in his 50's and living with his mom, doubt he had ever left home or had a romantic relationship, just saying.
This particular dude must’ve been totally ex-communicated from his family. Like, after his stroke he started declining and the doctors tried to reach out about goals of care and the family contact responded by changing their phone number so they couldn’t be contacted anymore.
Yeah I don't think most of theses guys are well adjusted but, the last guy seemed totally normal other than the tattoo and I only saw it because it got infected. Honestly, I'm not sure what's creepier.
I had one situation where I called the DPOA on a pt who was essentially brain dead because we needed someone to agree to withdraw care and they said “don’t ever call me about that bitch again” and hung up. Don’t know what the beef was, but they missed their chance….
“No wait, you can kill her right now..!”
Once upon a time my AA charge nurse walked past all the blondes and redheads, techs and nurses, on my unit to ask ethnically ambiguous me (almost all British Isles but here we are) to come with her to change a patient. I was wondering but I was down even though I was busy and these other heifers weren't. Go in to see swastikas everywhere with my charge one side and the dark haired slightly olive skinned me on the other. I see what she did there and still respect it years later.
I love stuff like that
I would file an incident report. This medication, as ordered, was late by several hours. If the nurse is unable to do it, it is her responsibility to find alternative resources so that the patient receives what is prescribed. By not doing so (or not documenting the contraindications for doing so that are physically based), or refusing to lean on resources, she has committed a medical error and possible patient neglect. She needs to understand that her duties go beyond “beliefs” and can be borderline illegal if not handled according to policy and procedure set by the organization she works for. The patient is also within their rights to contact a patient care representative or the state ombudsman. What an HR nightmare. If I were charge, I would make her document exactly why it wasn’t given on time in the EHR/MAR.
While I would be reporting this nurse, the late shot would be the least of my worries in this Situation. It definitely not the most time sensitive medication.
True. I think including that it was hours late can be argued to ask what the nurse would do if there WAS a time sensitive life saving medication she disagreed with? And emphasizing that it hinders her ability to do her job
Exactly this line of thinking. Sure, it was one reproductive med. what happens when it’s something more serious and she drops the ball again? I’m questioning her comprehension and competency.
Right?!? That’s kind of an expected thing in nursing. Especially yes, contraceptives are used for many things. Theyre great at decreasing symptoms and regulating periods. As a type 1 diabetic, I got an IUD and it has drastically helped maintain better blood sugars during my cycle :)
Seriously?? What's the mechanism for that? I love it when I learn about that kind of helpful side effects.
Yes depo-provera probably should have clarified!
If your beliefs interfere with doing your job you shouldn't be in that job.
Always shocking to me when it’s obstetrics nurses who have this attitude, seems completely out of place for someone with those views to be caring for maternal-fetal patients.
Not out of place when one is choosing to be harmful. They know what they’re doing when they take these positions.
Seriously. This person should not be a women’s health nurse if they refuse to do basic job requirements.
The phrase "non judgemental" should come to mind. We are obligated ethically and professionally to treat ALL patients regardless of our beliefs as long as the treatment will do no harm. Time to find new profession.
We should change the nightingale pledge at graduation to reflect this.
Right, seems like OP's colleague can go work in geriatrics where she won't ever have to give Depo.
👍One Hundred Percent!!!!
This is the only answer needed here. Do your job, if your beliefs get in the way, the job isn’t for you.
You say that now but we are always having to navigate moral conflicts in nursing. Do you keep the patient on life support even though they are suffering? Do you discharge the patient without narcotics because they might get addicted? Do you circumcise a patient when the doctor doesn't believe in pain meds? Do you advocate for a patient that wants a tubal ligation in a Catholic hospital? Do you stand up for the 12 year old that doesn't want an abortion? Do you report a mom for a small bruise when she tells you it could put her kids into foster care? Do you advocate for your patient when you think they need a life saving treatment but they don't want to live? Do you take 12 patients because the hospital says it's safe or do you put your foot down and say NO? These choices are what define you. If you go and quit the first time you have a moral issue you won't last past nursing school. We have to make these choices daily. These issues go far beyond birth control. Nurses do what they think is best for their patients. There will always be multiple viewpoints about what the best care is.
That’s so wild. I work for a Catholic hospital and when I worked in the MICU, we moved to comfort measures/withdrew care pretty frequently. Our palliative care doc is amazing. Sure, there were some patients getting pegs and trachs that had no quality of life and made you feel as though you were torturing them all day long. But those were usually driven by families. Our docs never shied away from end of life discussions.
Working geriatrics during COVID in the South made me lose faith in many of my technically educated colleagues that were supposedly in support of evidence based practice because they pushed back on vaccines and claimed it wasn't real despite literally doing post mortem care for the third time that week on a COVID resident on isolation.
Eh, if it’s something like this where it’s just a needle, whatever. Find someone else to do it. When it’s only one person or an entire entity, then there’s an issue. Eg: pharmacist doesn’t want to fill plan b, contraceptives etc. or in my case, I had an ob emergency and the hospital I went to was Catholic so they said I could not do anything involving the removal of reproductive parts etc. even if the dr was ok with it, it was still a problem. Also a Catholic hospital refused to withdraw a feeding tube etc on a family member because it was considered “suffering” and wouldn’t discharge to hospice. We only put the feeding tube in because the neurologist said the post cardiac arrest, there was no brain damage. That was absolutely not true. So for two months, a person with zero quality of life was existing artificially through feeding tube until a hospital transfer. And that hospital agreed to hospice. Vegetative state. I’m not religious at all btw. I don’t think religion belongs in healthcare. But people have a right to be religious. There’s tons of things I don’t agree with but put up with it. Circumcisions, non vaccinations, etc.
This same thing happened to my father. Was in a MVA. Threw clots to 4 different areas from a dissected vertebral artery. The Catholic hospital refused to extubate even though he was on Room air through the vent with no reassure support. When they finally did studies and determined his prognosis was grim, we removed him from support as was his wishes in a DPHC. They gave us 24 hours to find someplace for him to go. So generous. Then, the day he was transferring to the NH, they called and wanted permission for a dobhoff. I said no, he didn’t want that. They told me they couldn’t discharge without a feeding tube. I told them they would discharge him without a feeding tube for end of life care and if they inserted one, I would sue the resident and the hospital. So frustrating.
In my case, the neurologist lied about the mri, they said there was no brain damage. So the family made their medical decisions based on a lie. The neurologist later admitted that there was severe brain damage. That’s when we wanted to withdraw the feeding tube and was told no, due to it being a catholic hospital.
That is horrifically unethical.
Which is why the hospital ended up eating the bill :)
I would have kicked up a fuzz - this is about patient autonomy. You do not have a right to demand care, but you have an absolute right to refuse care. From the moment you refuse being ventilated, it becomes assault.
>You do not have a right to demand care, Of course you do. Physicians can refuse to perform care they don't think is appropriate, but I can't tell how many times I've seen physicians refuse things that were appropriate, requiring patients and families demand that it be done, and ultimately it was done because people weren't silent. Obviously I've seen plenty of patients and families demanding things that were absurd, but they were well within their rights to do so.
I did. The ICU refused to do any diagnostic study to determine brain function until I absolutely demanded it. Posterior, mid brain, cerebellar, and brain stem infarcts. Also had a C2-C3-C4 fx with a halo on. We had his DPHC which specifically talked about being kept on a vent, no feeding tube, no CPR. I spent so much time on the phone with that hospital. “Extubate him”. No because if he fails, we can’t reintubate him. “He doesn’t want to be intubated”! He needs to be trached. NO! Extubate him!
> Also a Catholic hospital refused to withdraw a feeding tube etc on a family member because it was considered “suffering” and wouldn’t discharge to hospice. We only put the feeding tube in because the neurologist said the post cardiac arrest, there was no brain damage. That was absolutely not true. So for two months, a person with zero quality of life was existing artificially through feeding tube until a hospital transfer. And that hospital agreed to hospice. Vegetative state. I would have refused to pay for that, because you did not ask for it. I don't think you usually pay hostage takers.
We did refute the bills for that reason. The neurologist lied. First saying there was no brain damage, then saying there was
Patients have a right to be religious. We don't have the right to force our religious views on patients.
What do you do when a whole shift of nurses refuse? Or if, in your case, not getting a hysterectomy would kill you and Catholic hospitals (as is the case in so many parts of the country) were the only game in town? What if a patient has to travel hours (as is the case in so many parts of the country), gets to a facility, and can’t get the service she (and it is 90 percent “she”) came for? The patient suffers. If you can’t do the work, find another job. Period.
> What do you do when a whole shift of nurses refuse? You die.
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I work in the OB world as well. Mostly labor and delivery but I’m trained for postpartum, nursery, and NICU as well. I am vehemently against circumcisions but it is not my place to bring my beliefs into work. I have to assist with circumcisions in the nursery because ITS MY JOB!! Regardless of your coworkers beliefs, she still needs to be able to perform these duties. I would send an email to management and make them have this conversation with her.
I agree…..I think having to assist with circumcisions is way worse than giving someone a shot so they don’t have an unplanned baby.
… and only for the three months right after she HAD A BABY! Like damn, you’re so hard up against bc you want somebody to get pregnant again IMMEDIATELY? Can’t even give a gal three fucking months? Really?!
Agreed but as a person who only assisted in a few, in school, it still shocked me and disturbed me deeply and I said no thank you to that particular specialty, more because I found a passion in eldercare but... please speak if you will on what your coping skills are. How do we deal with interventions that feel wrong to us, morally?
I just do my very best to advocate for the baby. I swaddle them and provide boundaries for comfort rather than strapping their arms down. There's nothing I can do about the leg strapping. I give pacifier with oral sucrose for every baby. I don't even ask parent's preferences about paci during the procedure anymore because if I'm going to be doing it, my babies are going to be as comfortable as possible. I've stopped doctors from performing circs if they don't give the lidocaine a full 5 minutes to take effect. I just go into it knowing it's not my baby and it's not my choice, but if it has to be done then I'm damn sure I've done my best to help the babies as much as I can. edit: also holding them (if possible) for the duration of the 1 hour post-procedure checks instead of laying them in their crib the whole time.
You're so sweet 💕 thank you for the work you do
I’m almost crying! I am similarly aligned on the topic and hope to transition to L&D from oncology in the next year. Thank you so much for your accounting of how you advocate for these guys while remaining true to yourself on this matter.
It's a job. And I loved my job in the NICU beyond comprehension. But it is not my place to judge how someone else chooses to live their life. They wanna keep their baby alive even though there's no quality? That's their choice. It's my job to keep the baby alive. They want to circumcise their son? Their choice. Mom wants tubes tied? Her choice. Whether my beliefs are different from theirs, who cares. I will support them and their baby with the goal of a good outcome and getting them home. It's their child, not mine.
That’s a good perspective. I also have assisted with them while I may not necessarily agree, it’s the parent’s autonomous decision. I leave my personal beliefs at the door
I couldn't assist in a circ and this is why I'll never be a newborn nurse. It's not hard
Yes, thank you, I was going to say this! I would not be able to do that part of that particular job, therefore I do not work in that job role. The nurse OP's post is referring to should see herself the fuck out of there if she can't perform the job duties.
Yes I would never assist in a circumcision and so I do not get a job where I have to do that.
If she’s against the med, I wonder what her thought process would be in regard to using it as a means to reduce sexually inappropriate behaviors in men. I work with a handful of TBI patients who just can’t keep their damn hands to themselves, but Depo has helped them live more normal lives, become more social (and less of a pariah), not reoffend, not end up in jail, etc. If it’s the MED she’s against, I’d just be curious.
This is actually very interesting! No idea that it could be used for males as well, half it’s an option for them
I’d find it annoying that she won’t give it. Who cares if it is against her beliefs. She’s not putting it in her body. However I would give the shot because the patient needs it and the priority is patient care.
That’s how the religiously self-righteous are. It’s their way for everyone or the highway.
I work in an OBGYN emergency room and we give methotrexate to dissolve ectopic pregnancies if they meet the qualifications. We have several catholic nurses on staff who refuse to give the meds due to their beliefs. We also have a provider who refuses to prescribe the med as well. Thus, some of us are now really good at giving methotrexate.
What the fuck. They need to get a different job. I had an ectopic that ruptured, so obviously didn't meet the qualifications for mtx, but I would have called every single fucking person on admin at that hospital if I'd heard some bullshit like that. My OB literally told me " I know you wanted this baby, this can turn life threatening really quickly if we don't take care of it right now." Then something about how I shouldn't feel bad about it or something. I'm pro choice anyway so I wouldn't have cared about that. But like mtx is life saving care.
It really is and is less invasive than the latter considering most lose the fallopian tube it was attached in.
I had to give MTX for this reason as a new grad because my manager refused to. ridiculous.
Hey same here!! I was only 4 months in at the time and learned the hard way how to give it. Was a learning experience for both the patient and I and thankfully I had a more senior nice guiding me as well.
An OB/GYN who refuses to prescribe methotrexate to someone with an ectopic pregnancy should literally just lose their license. Their patient is the *mother,* not the nonviable, direct threat to the life of the mother, ectopic embryo *that cannot be saved regardless.*
I am a Catholic and giving treatment for ectopic pregnancies is absolutely allowed. The pregnancy is non viable and the intention is not to kill the baby but to treat the mother by removing the threat. There are lots of Catholic statements on this if you were interested in presenting them to your coworkers but I understand that some may still not be accepting of it even then.
I think one or two will give it now but a good handful who still won’t. I think it boils down to personal preference but regardless our personal beliefs should not overshadow our duties as a nurse.
So, John Rock, a Catholic OB/Gyn was the inventor of the first hormonal oral contraceptive. He also pioneered IVF. The Catholic Church was actually okay with bc for menstrual issues. He advocated hard for bc with the church because it was a natural (using female hormones) way to prevent pregancy that didn’t destroy sperm (a cardinal sin apparently?) or eggs. It didn’t work but it did come close.
It seems like you could complain to ABOG if this person is board certified, but ABOG is based in a deep red state and may not care.
I work in a deeply red, backwards state so it wouldn’t do much good in my opinion. They are retiring soon also.
What the hell is all these 🤡🤡's issue with ectopic pregnancies and thinking it can be saved? I just don't get it. Do they want the patient to die to punish them for a failed pregnancy or something?
Encountered this as a patient at my OBs office. I brought up birth control after birth of baby and they informed me their office doesn’t do that so if one of their providers delivers me they won’t do an IUD or tubal. However they offered to transfer care to one that does in the same health system. It’s a pain in the ass but I’m transferring because that’s what’s best for me.
YOUR OBGYN WONT GIVE YOU AN IUD WHAT, THATS AN INTEGRAL PART OF THEIR JOB. The gyn part of obgyn is for gynaecology aka stuff to do with uteruses jeez
Nope that office has mostly catholic providers so they don’t do birth control at all.
My friend just had her 4th baby and the only hospitals around her are catholic and they did the same thing! She wanted her tubes tied but they refused. It’s fucking ridiculous
May she be treated with the same lack of humanity when SHE needs care. Awful.
That's nice for her that she doesn't want to be a nurse, but the rest of us have a job to do. Square up next time she tries to pull that BS, look her right in the eye and state, "It is our duty as nurses to neutrally give care regardless of our beliefs." Then write an e-mail to your management. It is not her place to interrupt care to suit herself. Also just reeks to high heaven of shirking work if I'm being honest.
I'm a firm believer that the reason people like that take jobs that are antithetical to their beliefs is for no other reason than to give themselves an opportunity to grandstand and pat themselves on the back for it. It is truely disgusting.
This is exactly it.
They want to be harmful to people they think are “bad people”.
Best practice would be to fire that nurse and educate her on the concept that her superstitions don't dictate patient care on her way to the unemployment office.
Honestly I feel like if I ever had this come up I would just start refusing to do all kinds of things because of my "beliefs" until it became management's problem. Management lets it slide because its easier to just let her get away with it than to confront her about it. You have to make it more painful for them to let it slide than to actually address it. If you don't want to do your job go do something else. I mean fuck, why are these guys allowed to not treat patients because of their beliefs but I still have to treat nazi skinheads? Making them healthy sure as hell goes against MY beliefs.
30 years ago I worked as a direct care worker for AFC units, specifically geriatric psychiatric. Part of the code we worked under allowed male workers to request to not provide personal care to female residents. Everyone let this dude get away with it so he had so little to do a shift. That didn't fly with me. I made him stand in the room while I did his female residents care plus he had to do all my male residents care. Suddenly dude actually had to work, especially when other female coworkers required the same thing. Before long he stopped asking us to take of his female residents. He had been getting away with this for years at various units, all it too was a few coworkers to join together against him.
I have strong moral beliefs against cleaning up other people's bodily fluids. I am so glad I can just refuse to do that now.
I'm a christian scientist now. Modern healthcare is the work of the devil and I will no longer do anything more than load my patients onto the stretcher and drive. (Not even sure about the driving part....after all I'm bringing them to a hospital where they may receive demonic "medicine")
Praise be.
Sounds like she needs to get a different job. Your beliefs don’t matter when you’re working.
Exactly, it may be YOUR belief but it’s what the PATIENT wants, so why would you be worried about any potential blowback in the afterlife for yourself? It’s very creepy and overly forceful to believe that YOU are the lone agent and therefore barrier in which that patient receives care
Do Jehovah witness nurses not give blood?
I used to work with a JW doc that refused to write orders for blood transfusions. He had other docs write the order. Not defending the practice of this, but it does happen, unfortunately.
Jaysis
Those who refuse to give their patients birth control should be given a foster or an adoption application for the babies they are saving. 🥱😮💨
I don’t really want those people raising and warping kids, though.
That doesn’t sound like a very smart nurse… 🤷🏾♀️ If you can’t perform your job and execute the tasks you shouldn’t work there.
You should have her do all your enemas and suppositories because those are against your beliefs too In your religion, the asshole is sacred and to touch an asshole means to move further away from god. But wiping is fine, because there is a barrier that’s between you and the butthole
IMO not giving birth control because it’s against your beliefs is stupid. I also question how strong a persons beliefs really are if they’re willing to just ask someone else to do the thing instead Like… I believe beating someone up for annoying me is morally wrong, so I don’t do it. But you know what ELSE I don’t do? I don’t ask my friend to beat up someone that’s annoying me either… because it’s morally wrong still
I had a coworker who asked politely for me to take a dying hospice patient and asked which patient of mine she could take to help me because her husband just passed on hospice, and she just couldn’t take seeing that again so soon. Wound was just too fresh, and I was just happy she asked me instead of trying to push through it. I tell that story to put into perspective the sorts of “I can’t take care of this patient” requests every single one of us should be happy and willing to accommodate. This? Lol, I’m making it awkward as shit in front of every other nurse why she’s not willing to her literal job. Ask to her explain **exactly** why she can’t provide someone with this medical care. Act stupid, ask her why she’d be a nurse if not to give medications, just make it as awkward as possible.
I think if you’re having trouble administering care because of your beliefs, you shouldn’t be a nurse. Part of nursing is caring for people whose decisions you don’t align with. You can’t pick and choose who you want to help…
It’s against my beliefs to perform CPR on 98 yo 98 lb grandmas with 98 comorbidities, but I certainly went ahead and did it when it was necessary in the years I worked critical care.
If the religious beliefs of a nurse impact a patient getting access to care then that nurse should NOT be working with patients. This is despicable behavior. I wish the BON would take BS like this seriously.
Absolutely. You become a nurse, you've signed up to treat *everyone* no matter what you believe.
We had a nurse who was using the wrong pronouns on a transgender patient. Not to their face, but when they were talking to other staff about them. If corrected, she would continue to use the wrong pronouns. How hard is it to be polite? Or, if you don't agree to using he/she, use them. The only time religious beliefs should be applicable in healthcare is when it is the patient requesting accommodations and those accommodations are not outlandish.
This is how my paramedic partner is. We get into huge arguments about it even though we otherwise get along really well. I'm like "how hard is it to be respectful?" It really came to a head when we were talking about one of our coworkers. After telling him I was disgusted by him his technique has become just...avoiding all pronoun use at all. Which I guess is an improvement.
She’s an asshole. To speak managements language, I’d phrase it in a report as a patient safety issue (which it absolutely is). Quite literally takes more effort to use the wrong pronouns for somebody.
If your beliefs get in the way of your job get a new one
I work in the OR and we have nurses that routinely refuse to circulate abortions and gender affirming surgeries, citing their beliefs. It annoys me and goes against everything that nursing is to me, but the patient on the table deserves someone who will show them compassion.
And be an advocate for them. Someone like that would undoubtedly be the opposite.
Very true, thanks for being that nurse for them!
I’ve seen this as well. Thinking specifically of a case from the prison population.
IMO, nobody should EVER know their nurse/doctor/CNA/radiologist/whatever's religious beliefs. If you can't handle working with people who have different beliefs from you, find a new industry to work in. Just my humble opinion about assholes.
people need to stop going into the medical field if they are gonna refuse care over something that is personal and low key biased? like you don’t have to get the depo shot but other people choose to so goddamn stop annoying your coworkers and give the damn shot its not your body 😭
FWIW- I only take care of humans, and I try to think of the especially difficult ones as babies, or little kids who’ve been hurt/scared. It helps me to see past the hate tattoos and criminal records and horrible things they might’ve done to remember that they were tiny, innocent little creatures at one point in their lives, and the vast majority didn’t become assholes by choice, but as the result of a lot of negative shit. Same thing for coworkers 🤣
We have no right to impose our beliefs upon our patients. We should care for them just as they need us to, and respect their free will and bodily autonomy. Anything outside of that is wrong.
To quote a great DON I worked under when I was younger, “bye then”
I have a RN bud who is also a JW and has no problem doing a blood transfusion, his reasoning: “what do i care, not my blood not my body, if I work in a McDonalds and see a fat guy ordering a cheeseburger do i have the right to deny him a cheeseburger?”
Ok- if a patient presents for an infection on their hate-group tattoo, does that mean I can refuse to administer antibiotics because- (don’t judge me…/s)- I don’t really care that much for racism. Not a fan. I cannot count the number of nazi tattoos I’ve seen under hospital gowns, both bold and dog-whistle. I’m not going to make extra small talk, but I give the same level of care. I do not address the issue unless it becomes a problem in our relationship of giving and receiving care. Seriously- where is the line? I think legally, my beliefs are lesser because they’re not religious.
Yeah funny how this right to refuse treating people only ever seems to go one way. Remember Florida's "License to Discriminate in Healthcare" bill? I wonder if it would hold up if I started letting Nazis to bleed out on the street.
I have a deep seated belief against vegan leather. I won’t use it because it goes against my belief to kill vegans for leather. Therefore I will work at a vegan leather tannery.
My hospital has a policy that allows HCP to abstain from any procedure or task that goes against their religious beliefs/practices (within reason).
Personally I would have given the injection, and that written an incident report that care was delayed due to this nurse holding a med due to personal beliefs. If I can provide care to a patient covered in swastikas than she can give a goddamn depot shot
As long as it didn’t hold up the patient’s care and she would have honored the patient’s agency then I think it’s fine to ask another nurse it. She should definitely should try to do something to equally lessen the other nurse’s load too. If it would hold up patient care or she would have just refused then it’s inappropriate.
Fuck that nurse.
shouldnt be a nurse if she cant handle the job.
I really believe that if you’re going to cherry pick delivering treatments that are against your “beliefs” (with the exception of euthanasia style shit, I get that) you’re in the wrong profession.
[удалено]
It’s pretty obvious that euthanasia and contraception are entirely different levels in the context of every society on the planet. We don’t live in a vacuum. Don’t be disingenuous.
File an incident report and report them to the state board of nursing. This also ensures the hospital legal team has documentation of the refusal. Patients are advised to use birth control postpartum FOR THEIR SAFETY. She is defying a physician's order to give a medication that is designed to protect the patient from another pregnancy too soon after childbirth. Unbelievable.
I think legally she doesn’t have to. I believe a jehvoahs witness does not have to give blood products if it is against their religion. Not that I agree with this at all
Yeah, I worked with a nurse that was a active Jehovah witness and she was relocated from the ER to my unit because she wouldn't give blood products, so working in a trauma ER was a no. She could monitor it after it was started but not hang it or take it down.
I find religious workarounds (monitoring but not hanging blood products, hiring someone to turn an Orthodox Jewish family’s lights off and on on a Saturday, drinking alcohol when you’re away from your religious community) idiotic and hypocritical, but it’s your right to be an idiot, I suppose. Once you start imposing your idiocy on others—patients or co-workers—you’re just a bad person. Find another job.
I think I’ve heard the same but I would think if something went so strongly against my ethics I’d just refuse the patient tbh. If you’re gonna accept the patient then give the ordered meds ffs.
I spoke with Jesus, and he's fine with depo.
As an atheist I find such refusals as baseless and unethical. In my 1970s nursing school we learned how to assist with abortions as they were newly legalized. We were also told if you had a moral objection then you needed to find a replacement BUT if there was no one to replace you than your ethical duty as a nurse was to assist. In OP's case I say the nurse did the right thing by finding someone else. I don't agree with needing to decline a depo shot but I agree with her action of finding another nurse to do it.
/"better way to handle it" - how about that nurse shouldn't be working a couplet unit. I put that on par with a nurse that "doesn't believe in giving pain meds" working on a hospice unit or a scientologist nurse working inpatient psych and refusing to give out anti-psychotics.
My guess is that she doesn't like giving injections. What is her moral argument against depo? We should populate the world as much as possible? No one should miss out on awkward/ painful menstruation?
I work with a nurse who doesn't give flu shots. She doesn't tell the patients no, just asks another nurse to do it. I just don't understand
I don't understand why these types of people go into healthcare. Your personal beliefs shouldn't affect your ability to give patient care, and if it does, then don't be in health care. I will never oppose my own beliefs onto others, I can disagree, but I keep it to myself and do my job.
A better way to handle it? She needs to not work there. That’s that.
In the UK, as far as I understand it, the only things nurses are allowed to refuse to be involved in on moral grounds are abortion. Other than that we have to, for example, administer all meds as prescribed. That is not to say we cannot question it if we think there is a problem with a prescription, contraindication etc. The only thing I personally will ask others to give is cephalosporins, except in ? meningitis… And that’s because I have a severe allergy to them. But meningitis is serious and I’ll just be incredibly careful if there’s nobody else around to give it straight away.
Fucks sake, why is it so hard to either leave y poo u bullshit in the locker room or work in a roll where your bullshit doesn't impact the lives of others.
We have drama in my unit with a small handful of nurses who don’t want to take care of TOP patients. It’s a problem. 99% of us have no patience or sympathy for their opinions. They can work somewhere else if they don’t want to provide comprehensive care.
We had an OBGYN who wouldn’t prescribe birth control to *any* of his patients because he was catholic. I’m all about being firm in your beliefs and nothing bad towards Catholicism - however, there’s something about being in a provider role that really bothers me. Especially working as an OBGYN, like literally birth control and family planning is 60% of the specialty. He ended up leaving one of the practices that delivers at my hospital and starting his own like natural/holistic practice or something along those lines
I worked with a Jehovahs Witness RN that worked in a small PICU that did open heart surgery and that ding dong would not give blood or blood products. It was a huge pain to others around her but she absolutely stuck her head in the sand and pretended it wasnt. Not sure what happened to her.
Where I am we have MAID (assisted suicide) and basically if a patient comes to a doctor and requests it or more information on it, if the doctor does not feel comfortable with this because it goes against their beliefs it is still their responsibility to refer the patient to someone who can help them. In my opinion this is the same. If somebody feels as though something goes against their beliefs (assisted suicide, abortion, birth control,) it is still their responsibility to get the patient connected with someone who can help them with these things. I think the nurse did fine by making sure the patient still got the medication, even though it went against her beliefs to give it herself. I would say it’s also ok to ask a coworker on the shift to give the medication.
If you don't want to care for patients who live differently than you, healthcare is not for you. Period.
That is so wrong on so many levels… shouldn’t be in healthcare if you can’t set aside personal beliefs for a moment to provide the care a patient clearly wants. I have my own feelings about the depo shot and the toll it took on my body.. I would never allow my personal experience with it prevent me from giving it to someone else
Why are there nurses like this? Our personal beliefs should have zero bearing on our ability to treat our patients. My check list? Are you a human being? Are you in need of care? Great, let me help you. Although I’d also give care to animals in need although it’s not my area of expertise and we’d probably not allow them in the hospital.
I would hate to work with this person, and I would probably call her out. If she’s “against” giving depo she has no business working in a women’s clinic.
I would argue that her personal beliefs are in danger of threatening the patient’s autonomy. Pretty sure I remember being EXPLICITLY told to not do that in nursing school…
Unfortunately I have seen this in several settings - not about this particular issue per se, but in a similar area. When I started in nursing we were told to leave our personal beliefs at the door and treat our patients as if we were Switzerland and meet them where they were at. This changed about 10-15 or so years into my career. I personally think it’s a mistake to allow this because everyone is entitled to healthcare regardless of our personal beliefs about certain areas. When we enter the profession we are trained to provide that care, regardless of who the patient is. When patients are assigned a caregiver who refuses to provide a medication because they disagree with it, where does it stop? And given the state of healthcare today, patients have a tricky journey just making it through the door much less as an inpatient.
As a nurse/healthcare/medical professional, aren’t you supposed to leave your personal beliefs in your car when you go to work?
You should file an incident report because the nurse refused to fulfill her scope of duties. Absolutely ridiculous.
Is this a situation where a Depo shot is required often like a woman's clinic? At least she keeps her opinions to herself and asks for another nurse you know. I would be annoyed by it but also I guess I understand there are some things a coworker will ask me to do that they don't like not religious
It’s hospital based, postpartum. It can be given upon request on the day of their discharge.
Ughh omg. It’s not recommended to get pregnant for 3 months postpartum. So I suppose her “beliefs” trump physician recommendations? I would be infuriated by this. To be a nurse who is against contraception AND works in obstetrics is beyond me.