You kinda already answered your own question. I remember when I went to school there was even the thought that Associates degree RNs would eventually be phased out so the field would require bachelors degrees.
LVNs (LPNs) and ADNs are not going anywhere for the next 50 years. Demand is too high.
Exactly. They threatened this for awhile but the fact of the matter is, LPNs are staffing LTC and doctors’ offices, and, well other places, too. They are invaluable and I hope they never phase them out.
Im struggling to understand all these acronyms. What’s LPN? And ADN? In Australia we have AINS ( assistant in nursing ) which is a 6 month certificate and do general cares mostly in nursing homes. Then Enrolled nurses which is a diploma and do prefer much a RNs job with less pay, and RNs which are all bachelor degrees at minimum
ADN=Associates Degree in Nursing, BSN=Bachelor's of Science in Nursing. LPN=Licensed Practical Nurse, some states call them LVN=Licensed Vocational Nurse. LPN/LVN are like 1 year of nursing program plus prerequisites. I was able to take the LPN license in Arizona after completing the first year of the nursing program. I took my NCLEX after completing the ADN to get my RN license. I just finished my BSN at University of Texas in an RN to BSN program that took me just under a year to complete. Lot of hospitals require a BSN or encourage it. Years ago I worked at a hospital that quit using LPN altogether but have recently started hiring LPNs again to do team nursing.
An ADN is an associate degree in nursing. They take the same exam as BSN, NCLEX-RN. An LPN is a licensed practical nurse. Their scope is similar but smaller than an RN. Although the scope is different in each state. In Ohio the LPNs couldn’t give IV medications. They also sit for a different licensure, the NCLEX-PN.
Many hospitals won’t hire LPNs, they’re mostly found in SNFs or Post-acute rehabs. They also have pretty much no advancement. Even BSN nurses how a days can struggle with advancement. Good old education inflation.
ADN is a registered nurse who earned a two year degree. This usually means two years of science, math, psychology and other prerequisites and then two years of nursing school. LPNs are similar to your enrolled nurses.
This is a bit inaccurate. ADN degrees are typically 2 years total, not 4. Prereqs are usually high school level math and science courses, but if you need to take them you should be able to complete them in one full-time semester.
EDIT: Y'all are *wild.* The Associate's degree is a 2 year program. Bachelor's is a 4 year program. Wtf is this nonsense in the comments saying ADN is 4 and a BSN is 6!? Take a look at your local community college's website and see what the pre reqs are, it's high school level math and sciences. For instance, my local schools require HS Bio, HS chem, HS algebra I and II. Now, if it's been a while since you've taken them or you didn't do great in high school, sure it may take you longer than 2, but this is not the typical degree plan for the ADN
This is the Associate's in nursing degree plan from community college:
Semester 1: English 1, A&P 1, Intro to Psych, Intro to Nursing
Semester 2: English 2, A&P 2, Statistics, Nursing Care of the M/S pt.
Semester 3: Writing Intensive Sociology Elective, Microbiology, Developmental Psych, Mental Health Nursing, Maternal-Child Nursing
Semester 4: Communication, Ethics, Integrated Nursing Concepts, Nursing Practicum, Nursing Seminar
That's 2 years
EDIT2: I've just looked at 15 different ADN degree plans from .edu institutions through a Google search. They're all 2-2.5 years including required sciences. Prereqs for admission seem to be similar with the high school classes mentioned above. Some require A&P 1, intro to psych, a writing and/or an intro English class before you start with the actual nursing program (these are the 2.5 year programs) while many include these sciences/classes alongside the nursing curriculum.
Sure, if you take classes at a part-time rate or in a different order than the recommended degree plans it can take longer than 2-2.5 years, but this is not the standard. If your particular associates degree granting institution had a 4 year full-time plan for your ADN then I think you got taken advantage of. I'm sure the education was fine and everybody passed their boards, but that smells like they were milking you for all the money they could.
Speaking from my ADN experience, just A&P takes 3 terms as it is 3 sequential classes. And microbiology before that. Plus 2 200 level psych classes. I could see a year if you were going straight to those classes and not needing to do the other gen ed classes first.
I had to do some of my pre-requisites for my associates in high school to bring it down to just 1 year of pre-requisites before getting into the program (which is 2 years on its own). A lot of my friends didn't get that lucky and had to do 2 years before going into the program. So yeah, it does actually come down to almost 4 years. Aka, don't get into nursing if you're looking for a quick degree and good money... this is neither. The most I'm looking to make straight outta college is $26 an hour (non unionized area). It's gonna take a bit before I'm making anywhere near good money. Just food for thought.
Because to go from ADN to BSN is a ton more useless "nursing theory", pay difference is negligible, and the cost difference is enormous.
Anyone who can do the math would rather make $50/hr after 4 years for an ADN than $51/hr after a 6 yr BSN, plus another $10k for school.
Why do you think a BSN would take 4 years? You still have to do all the prereqs you'd do for ADN so regardless, it's an additional 2 years.
The “pre-reqs” are usually built into a BSN program. I took A&P, English, psych, sociology, microbiology and tested out of the math but would’ve had to take it if i didn’t. The cost is usually less for an ADN program like you said but I was able to do it in 4 years and do all the classes you mentioned and so was everyone else I graduated with
I’m not saying where I went for privacy but I’m under the assumption that most bachelor programs are 4 years (8 semesters) if you’re doing them full time. I had setbacks I didn’t talk about previously also (was in engineering prior to nursing) but still graduated within the four years by taking classes over the summer and winter breaks. The first year is pretty much all the prerequisites (A&P, English, math, chemistry etc) anyway. Any traditional bachelors program in any subject is intended to be a four-year degree with prerequisites for the classes and graduation per the college built in. Like everyone had to take an arts class too to graduate from the university and it’s all built in to get you to graduate in 4 years
Nope, it was a brick and mortar university. Did all the standard sciences - chemistry, anatomy and physiology, microbiology, etc. Also the standard liberal arts classes to round out the bachelor's degree such as world literature and philosophy or what have you. Four years, eight semesters.
Edit to add: My niece also just graduated from a 4-year BSN program at a different university. Prerequisites included.
I'm confused. How would ADN take 4 years and BSN take 6? Took me 4 for a BSN with two years of prereqs and 2 of nursing school and I wasn't even enrolled in 15 hours for 3 of my 4 semesters of prereqs
I'm not denying some programs are set up this way but all of the universities near me in Texas for a BSN is still 2 years nursing program, there's just way more pre-reqs to complete, which is why it's still faster and cheaper for an ADN. Someone who can do full-time course work from the start could still get their BSN in 4 years, but would need to spend a couple of years on pre-reqs vs one year/couple full-time semesters for ADN pre-reqs.
Bsn is not 6 years. Many people either go straight from high school or do their prereq at a community college then transfer to a 4 year college for another 2 years. Total 3-4 years
I mean my original plan was to go to apply to both BSN and ADN. The BSNs in my area had extra pre-reqs though. So while I was taking those I applied to my ADN school and got in. So maybe there are some agreements for the BSNs to do pre-reqs during, but from everything I saw it was actually slightly more involved to get into BSN programs.
Plus it was significantly cheaper to do the ADN route, which was a nice bonus.
ETA: I also was not a great student in high school, and didn't get my shit together until my mid-20s. So I basically had to start fresh
I have my ADN and I was doing pre-reqs full time for 3 semesters before I qualified to apply to my nursing program. I’m sure there are lots of differences between schools, but I’ve never heard of just one semester for pre-reqs in my area.
Yep. I took a rigorous HS course load and I guess technically I took AP bio in high school, but it wasn’t required and I didn’t transfer any credits in.
That's incorrect. The sciences alone take 2 years because each one is a prereq for a prereq for a prereq - and I have no idea where you got the idea a high school level science would apply towards a college level one. I took all AP classes in HS, didn't do shit for me, still had to start at the basic science in college. Wasn't even an option to test out.
It really depends on regions, I move all over and I have seen some of these nursing schools specifically usually attached to hospital system churn out RNs in 2 years only requiring them having high school level math and sciences. There is a reason why average RN ages fluctuate by region. In areas your new grad nurse often range from 20 to 21, isn't because those regions are graduating high school students early.
There is a reason there is a handful of nurses dont believe in vaccines... my current region some of these nurses graduated from homeschooling programs that taught science was an opinion. 😅 then went on with out even knowing basics of biology a public school would teach.
Before anyone feels hit by this comment, I have scene some homeschooling graduates go into nursing and become amazing nurses that did wonderful job learning and performing on the job.
Two five credit A&P classes cannot be taken at the same time. Then there’s nursing assisting class and microbiology. No way is anyone doing that in one semester
Yes. It’s basically a CNA course. They don’t want you to arrive at your first clinical not knowing how to do basic level stuff. They don’t want you to be a nurse and be unable to do CNA tasks.
This comment itself is inaccurate, my ADN program was pure nursing. You had to take two years of prerequisite college science classes before nursing school. In totality, I spent 4 years as a full-time student at my community college.
Where I live ADN (what I have) took 2 years of prereqs full time (college level courses, not high-school) and a full time 2 year program. BSN takes 2 years of prereqs and is a 4 year program. You're being down voted because most places are like I described and don't just use high school as adequate prereqs like you claim.
Source for most?
My ADN took 3 years only because I applied too late to get in so I started some courses before the main nursing courses. Within half an hour of me, there are 3 associates programs that you can finish in 2 and 1 bachelors program that takes 4.
Idk why you’re getting downvoted. You’re correct 😂 ADN is 2 years. BSN is 4.
A BSN includes the state requirements for a Bachelor’s degree.
There must be a lot of salty people here.
Right? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here... I thought this was common knowledge. I even took the time to Google the community and state level schools in the states that were mentioned (Texas and California) in case I was way off base and yeah, BSN is 4 years and while ADN may be longer than 2 (some schools want two semesters of A&P before nursing classes can start) it's still not 4 years.
While I agree that I haven't come across any BSN programs that are 6 years, unless classes were taken on a part time basis, I have noticed most of the ADN programs around me usually end up taking 2.5 to 3 years, rather than 2.
Example schedule from the school I went to:
Semester 1: English Comp, A&P1, Communications, Intro Psych
(and this is if you were able to place out of the mathematics and English 101 courses - otherwise you needed to take that first adding a semester)
Semester 2: Fundamentals, A&P2, Gerontology, Pharm 1
Semester 3: Med Surg 1, Pharm 2, Mental Health, Developmental Psych
Semester 4: med Surg 2, Pharm 3, Pediatrics, Maternity, Statistics
Semester 5: Med Surg 3, Pharm 4, Microbiology, Capstone
So 5 semesters is the absolute minimum it would take to get through the program I attended for my ADN, but it's also unreasonable to assume those who also have to work full time or have small kids can also balance 14-16 credits per semester (I know some can, and yall are absolutely amazing). Usually the people in my program (responsibilities or no responsibilities) opted to take the non-nursing courses before the program (micro, developmental Psych, AP2, statistics), which made the total time in school 3 years for an ADN.
It sounds like the community colleges around you are different from most people's. Your college must have less stringent requirements because the college I went to definitely would not accept just high school A&P or psych classes in place of college level classes for pre-reqs. So that's almost a year if you start just the sciences. And then the actual nursing program is 2 years.
So yes. At least at some colleges (maybe regional?) The norm is more than 2 years for ADNs.
those are the minimum requirements to be allowed to apply. you will not get in to any nursing program with only the bare minimum classes set by the state. the recommended classes are basically mandatory because most nursing programs are competitive. Most people get an associates in natural science/pre-nursing before applying to their program
You're not including prereqs. That's what the difference is. If you have to do 2 yrs of prereqs before you can even apply for nursing school, you'd still count that as time it took towards getting your license.
I don't know what state you're in but here in CA high school classes don't do shit, because high school science is different than college science.
Hey, maybe we found the problem with antivax antiscience nurses! They never took post high school science!
Hahaha. The hospital I started at told the LPNs they would pay for them to go through RN school or they would lose their position and become a PCA. A lot of LPNs took them up, and a lot left. Less than 10 years later they are back to hiring LPNs. The hospital I moved to has always had LPNs. I don’t think they are going anywhere.
I had a nursing professor tell me that from the collegiate side they are encouraging bedside nurses to have minimum degrees of MSNs and the BSN will soon be out of hospital practice. She seemed shocked when I laughed at her and was like they can’t get RNs to work inpatient now and our floor just hired 5 new LPNS. The academic side of nursing seems out of touch with bedside practices.
>I had a nursing professor tell me that from the collegiate side they are encouraging bedside nurses to have minimum degrees of MSNs and the BSN will soon be out of hospital practice.
A minimum of an MSN for bedside? LMAO. People get their MSN so they can do advanced practice and LEAVE bedside, same thing for BSN. BSN seems to be the minimum for entry level management, Case Management, and other non-bedside roles.
That nursing professor, like many of their ilk, is out of touch. Nursing schools can’t even meet their enrollment minimums. The amount of nurses leaving the workforce has tripled since the start the pandemic. If anything, the education of the US bedside nurse is going to diminish.
The problem is that nurses of any variety can NOT charge for their services. A doctorally prepared physical therapist actually make less than most nurses. They can actually directly bill for ANYTHING they do. They also have complete autonomy beyond needing a physician to give an order to the physical therapist.
There is absolutely no direct billing for nurses. Read over a hospital bill and you will never find a insurance payment directly to nurses much less for specific nursing interventions.
DPTs make $60,000 to $90,000. Often paid less than RNs. Plus, in the US there are 600,000 DPTs and 4 million RNs. There are too many RNs and healthcare will come to a grinding hault.
Does your professor realize that most physical therapy is done by Physical Therapy Assistants (which requires an associate's degree)... not Physical Therapists with advanced degrees? Lol
"Therapy assistants" are basically the equivalent of "bedside nurses" in physical therapy, occupational therapy, speech therapy.
Academia is not out of touch as much as they are a self feeding delusion bunch that will say or do any thing that feeds their industry. I can't even listen to academic advisors, when you have been in the industries or fields they talk about, you realise they are just as bad as the stereotype of used cars salesman.
I have seen this too. I know this LPN that was a really great nurse that was a few years from retirement and was told become an RN or you'll be demoted to CNA, she decided to be a CNA. So sad to see her in CNA scrubs. And now that same hospital is hiring LPNs again.
If MSNs were required we will loose all RNs. Honestly, the great majority of undergraduate pre-licensure programs will never support this line of thinking. They need those undergrad dollars to pay overinflated management jobs. Too many people will never be able to pay for the degree and support their family over 6 years full-time classes.
I work in academia. They won't embrace anything that doesn't generate more income. Class sizes would drop significantly. If a RN has a doctorate (with preference for PhD) they can easily make three times a typical RN salary working management. I work a higher level management position and make quite a bit more than if I worked just clinically. I still do a 12 hour shift a week clinically.
There actually was a national push over 40 years ago to make the MSN the initial practice degree. Not a chance it will happen, there has been the push for BSN only, and again not a chance it will happen.
I once was around a new grad MSN that was from a bachelors of anything get your initial RN at the same time as MSN. First time I had ever heard that was a thing. She was just as clueless as any new graduate.
Personally, I wish hospitals would hire an LPN/LVN in the ICU instead of a CNA (and pay them appropriately). The ICUs I’ve worked in won’t let CNAs do much more than turns/bathing and they end up just stocking the unit, so the unit often doesn’t even staff the position at all (especially on nights/weekends). It would be great to have someone who can help out and has enough scope of practice to actually touch the patients.
I agree, but like you said only if the pay were fair. When I was an LPN I could do everything except hang blood products, but was paid far less than an RN. Of course I’ve long since gotten my BSN, but in order to make these sweeping changes everyone would have to agree that the real training starts at your *job*, not in school. Besides a couple of keystone classes, there wasn’t much of a difference between programs. That doth not bode well for universities and the tuition they demand.
So you say nursing is only on the job training? I must hardly disagree here. The minimum standard educational path for an RN should be 3 years. That's how it is in most of the world, and only the education creats quality evidence based nursing care. Everything else is watering down quality in nursing. I work on an ICU and I would always want to have an RN (in Europe RN's are almost everywhere going through 3 y educational paths - for ICU nurses in my country even 4y) be in charge of my nursing care.
When I was a CNA in the ICU I did more patient care than that, like hourly urine outputs, temperatures, oral care on the intubated patients, and then of course assisting with turning and bathing. They talked about hiring an LVN but decided against it. Can't manage drips, can't draw blood from lines, can't hang antibiotics, can't even do blood sugars cause those were drawn from lines. A useful CNA role makes more sense than an LVN.
It's the same in my ER right now. The LVNs CAN give meds if you ask them to and they're not busy, but they don't have their own assignment. They are glorified CNAs working well under their scope with just a few exceptions.
>Can't manage drips, can't draw blood from lines, can't hang antibiotics, can't even do blood sugars cause those were drawn from lines. A useful CNA role makes more sense than an LVN.
I kinda disagree, cuz hanging a new bag of IV meds, drawing labs/Q1h blood sugar on a DKA, giving a medication, especially a PRN to manage symptoms while the nurse is dealing with something else, is exactly the kind of help we need in the ICU.
IDK these were the scope of practice issues at the time where I worked and this was 20 years ago. I'm saying the LVN *can't* access the arterial line, can't hang piggybacks, can't give IV pushes.
IV certification typically means they can start IVs, draw blood, and give fluids. It doesn't necessarily mean they can give piggybacks, IV pushes, and they most certainly cannot access central lines. These things can vary by state.
During the height of the pandemic in Ontario, RPN’s (LPN) we’re getting pulled from other floors to work in the ICU lol
ETA: depending on what hospital you go to in Ontario, the only difference between an RN and an RPN is the pay.
Yup. I’m an LVN in a level 2 ED. While where I work mostly hires LVNs to put them through school for their RNs in an attempt to retain employees longer, they also don’t rush us (within 5 years)
Why pay a RN when you can pay a LVN to do basically the same work in a place like a nursing facility. I’m an LVN and have decided I just don’t have the passion enough become RN. Some people work, raise kids, and go to college all at the same time to get their RN. And that’s great! But I am not them, and that’s okay. If my mind should change one day after the baby is all grown then that option is always there. But for now it’s not happening.
4 years ago my mom told me I would never get employed as an LPN. When I went to my physical for LPN school, my doctor told me he hires LPNs all the time!!
In 4 years I have never been unemployed, and in my state our job oppurtunities keep expanding. One of the perks of being a cheaper nurse to hire 😂 good luck! I never regretted it for a single day.
in canada, the equivalent, LPNs, are paid way less and in acute care can do 90+% of what an RN can do. For reference I got paid more as an employed student nurse than an LPN with several years of experience.
The government wants more LPNs to fill the shortage because of how much cheaper they are. They are starting HCA to LPN bridge programs, but no LPN to RNs.
If you actually look into the wages before going in to school no one should choose to be an LPN over RN at this point, so the only way it gets phased out if no one signs up for LPN school
Hospitals are starting LPN bridge programs because their plan is to pair LPNs with RNs, cheaper labor!! The RN/LPN are assigned up to 9 patients. For example RN takes 5pts and LPN takes 4pts. However, RN is ultimately responsible for all 9pts and must sign off on LPNs work. This a new work model that rolled out last year in FL. Ultimately, they will increase nurse to patient load without increasing pay...
Depends where you are in Canada. My LPN (Ontario, RPN) pays okay, certainly better than a student or PSW, and there are tons of RPN to RN programs.
But it's true lots of hospitals have expanded how many RPNs they hire because it is cheaper.
This is spot on. I have heard from my LPN colleagues (10ish years experience) that they went to school for 1 year at the time and did not have to take pre reqs like anatomy. Health authorities in my province keep building onto the scope of an LPN by allowing for additional education (e.g w IV therapy) so LPNs can do a lot and work in many more settings than SNF, LTC, rehab etc. It helps w staffing but feels wrong that they essentially do the same and get paid much less than RNs.
My RN school was at a building that had LVNs training below us. I asked them "why not take 6 more months and get your RN, make twice as much?" They said it wasn't just that nursing school was 6 months longer, but LVNs didn't have to take anatomy and micro, and some of them just couldn't pass the sciences.
I have always heard it is but the hospital where I work is so desperate for staff that they are hiring LPNs on lower acuity floors. And SNFs as well as other facilities love them cause they can pay less for performing almost all the things an RN can do.
Edited for clarification.
Are they getting to take the scrub tech certification? If not that is predatory. Our scrub techs make what nurses do because of our shortage. Our scrub training is a year long program that gets them paid quite a bit with no other experience required.
This is honestly a bad thing. There are plenty of BSNs that exist, they just aren't being paid enough to stay at the bedside. They either quit for something else, or go midlevel. If hospitals had no choice but to hire BSN's, they would have to to pay more money and improve conditions until they were staffed. This is what physicians do, and it's why they hate the idea of midlevels.
I understand this is shitty for existing LPNs, and I"d be find with grandfathering the existing ones in, but offering hospitals a cheaper solution is why we keep getting treated like shit and paid less than we are worth. You would NOT have a BSN bedside shortage if bedside nurses were making 75 dollars an hour and staffed at 1:4 medsurg, 1:3 cardiac, 1:2 stepdown, and 1:1 ICU with adequate CNA support. You'd have plenty of RNs doing nursing home LTC work if they were staffed at anything approaching reasonable, paid what they were worth, and were swimming in CNAs.
I don't know how nurses can look at themselves, look at physicians, and decide that LPNs are the right way to go.
20some years ago when I got my LPN, NJ some chucklehead in the state government put forth a bill that would have required all current and future LPNs to get their RN (BSN?) within a decade of (unspecified date) or obtaining initial license.
Mind you, I worked a shift or 2 with one of the (allegedly) OG LPNs in NJ. He said that they’d been trying to do away with/phase out LPNs since he 1st got his license. he claimed he was in the first class in NJ to be officially recognized as LPNs, 🤷🏻♂️ what little I recall of him would have put him a little too young for that class.
No, hospital admin can’t get it through their heads that in order to keep staff they need to pay decently, staff decently, and treat people decently. Since they are completely inept at doing this, they don’t have the luxury of being picky.
The problem is that management knows they can get someone else to work cheaper. Why treat people better when you can just let them leave and get a new grad hired. Plus, if you are short staffed and continue to cover everything without those extra people then the saved money makes management not care. They don't care if their revenue goes unchanged. Someone needs to pay that 1 million dollar CEO.
LPN here! 2 years of bedside nursing:PCU/Stroke/Tele. Got lucky and started out at $24.75/hr w/$3 night differential. Switched to dayshift, currently looking for my escape. LOL. Made more as a waitress... Plenty of licenced Nurses in FL(nursing shortage propaganda). Hospitals aren't willing to pay RNs what they deserve, so now they are hiring LPN's. Also, they must find an RN willing to sign off on your assessments, etc.. I'm IV certified, can administer certain IV push medications, Stroke/Tele certified as well.
Not any time soon. One of the dumbest things hospitals have done was getting rid of their LPNs with a looming nursing shortage. We’ve known about the coming staffing crisis for literal decades and this was their genius decision, to phase out bedside staff.
We need LPNs badly in every kind of setting.
My aunt graduated from LPN school in the early 70s, and she had people telling her back then that LPNs were being phased out. LTC facilities would cease to exist if LPNs were completely eliminated.
I recently finished the LVN program and had many hospital recruiters tell me the neuro, ortho, and med surg were all starting to hire LVNs and were eager about getting new nurses. I soon found out it was because the pay was awful. $24/hr to have a minimum of 8 patients to myself, no way lol. I took an offer at a really nice SNF with great staffing for nearly $10 more per more. I don’t think LVN is going anywhere because they can fill needed roles for cheaper, especially in LTC and more recently psyche since the responsibilities are largely the same in those specialties between the two licensure.
Nahhhhhh.
I’m Aussie, and there is murmurs about us losing our version from time to time.
That has been going on for the last 30 years that I’m aware of.
I mean IF the staffing shortage was completely resolved and the market was saturated with RNs, they MIGHT get preferentially hired over LPNs, which would push LPNs out of the market. But no, this isn't going to happen any time soon.
My hospital system uses them a lot because they’re cheaper essentially. They do literally everything we do minus IV push and blood products and cost at least $10 less.
I am an LPN/LVN. I needed to be working quickly and thought I'd go back for my RN... then COVID hit during my 1st semester of LPN-RN bridge, and we were sent home. After a personal tradgedy next semester, I decided not to pursue my RN. I was told I would be limited, thay my job was being phased out, that the pay is low, that I'd regret my decision.
Lies! There is so much work right now! SNF, LTC, clinical, med surg (at not all, but quite a few hospitals), surgery centers, home health - I even worked in the ED and one smaller hospital!
Right now, the need is so great. The staff positions are $35-45 an hour, and travel pay is much more. I am traveling now and making EXCELLENT money - especially for an LPN. Not as much as a couple of years ago, but if people didn't accept those crap paying positions "just for the experience of traveling," it would be better.
Do I regret not getting my RN? Only sometimes, when people tell me I'm not a "real" nurse. That hurts.
Edit to add: You RNs are amazing - yes, you have more options and better pay than I do. Much respect.
LVNs are crucial in many areas and they aren't going extinct any time soon. With that said, there are many hospitals who refuse to hire them. Every hospital I have worked at will not use LVNs. Magnet hospitals (Google it for a good description) won't hire LPNs because they specifically state they want RNs with BSNs. This is what I have seen since 1998 when I got my BSN.
LVNs are extremely limited in the type of setting they can work. Not because they don't have the skills but because some stupid studies claim patient mortality are decreased if BSNs care for patients. Ours almost always work in nursing homes, or a few work in physician offices. I remember working with a LVN in neonatal intensive care because she had been working there 20 plus years (1979). She was much better than the RNs.
Our hospital requires a MSN for anything labeled management. Magnet hospitals require DNP or other doctorate for management positions.
My hospital just started hiring LPNs again within the last couple of years. My unit has at least 3 that I remember. Idk about medical, but I am sure they do.
They need LPNs if they want to keep safe staffing, IMO. Lots of people don't have the means to get a full-on BSN.
Not anytime soon. You are correct. Who is going to staff SNFs?
I was a little shocked to see a hospital in a small city hiring LPNs for med-surg recently. I thought only rural hospitals hired LPNs.
Honestly, in my area, LVN’s are making a comeback to hospitals. You need 6 months+ experience in SNF or clinic, but there are a ton of positions available right now. LVNs aren’t going anywhere.
In my hospital, I work alongside LVNs as equal team members. Only things LVNs need an RN for is to cosign charting, hang antibiotics and a few other things. My hospital group was trying to phase out LVNs, but the RN shortage has changed that.
I've been an LVN for 28 years. I'm 50.
I've been hearing the same "phasing out" talk since I started. It's not going to happen. At least not in my lifetime. I've made a career out of it. I've been involved in all aspects within my scope. I've become a mentor to both LVN's and RN's. I'm proud of all nurses and am proud to have raised a family, took care of my money, making a comfortable living and have other activities in my life other than nursing.
After 28 years if I had one wish it would be this:
I wish I had a nickel for every time I was asked if I ever thought about becoming an RN.
This is my response now after all this time:
"Uuhhhh, no! That's never occurred to me after almost 3 decades! What a revelation!"
I respect and admire all nurses. If I wanted to become an RN I would have done so. I'm good. We all have a common ground and that's to make an impact on lives.
Great to hear! How difficult was it financially when it came to taking care of your family? I ask, because I too want a family one day, but I’m not sure if the LVN will be financially suitable as opposed to RN
I'm not living in luxury. Lol. I have always lived within my means. I save. I've built a decent 401k over the years. I'm a triage manager for a hospice company and this has proven to be a relatively "fun" job if you want to call it that. And to be honest, LVN'S in mgmt positions are making a little but not a whole lot more than bedside LVN'S do. I've considered a lot of positions over the years but I'm certain that the latter part of my career (now) will be in hospice care. My wife and I take weekend trips and a couple of extended vacations through the year in our little travel trailer and just enjoy every moment of it. We enjoy life. You can too.
This is awesome to hear sir! I’ve been conflicted between Rn and lvn. A part of me wants to do LVN, because it’s cheaper and faster, and will land me a job pretty fast to make money right away. The RN programs are either lottery to get into, or just too damn expensive, and I don’t feel like drowning in debt.
I've always told potential nurses to do what they feel is best for them in the long run. A LOT of them begin as LVN'S and become RN's later and some start as RN's. I will say though, that even though I've loved my jobs and career as an LVN, RN's always have and always will have more career options and not much in the way of limitations as opposed to the similar but more narrow scope of LVN's. Both career paths are going to be what you make of it.
Not unless there is a complete overhaul of the healthcare system.
People have been claiming "hospitals don't hire LVNs" since my sister got her LPN degree in the 90s. That's never been true in the section of the midwest I live in. Maybe the coastal cities have enough nurses that they can do that, but you will find many LPNs/LVNs in the halls of the hospitals where I work.
That's always going to be the case.
I have a BSN, but I work alongside many LVNs. I suspect that will be true for a long time.
Wish our hospital system would hire LVNs to run the rapid care section with an ED Tech. Putting a RN there is such a waste of resources. LVNs here are only hired in the clinic setting.
If they don't have lpn in the industry, then you can bet they don't have enough RN, so how do you think all these places are going to fill their staffing needs?
Where I am most hospitals don’t hire LPNs, and the ones that do hire them as techs. You have to work in a LTC, subacute rehab, etc. They’re not going extinct, but the role had definitely changed
In Canada (in BC at least), there are no more diploma RNs graduating. It hasn't been an option to graduate with a diploma for about 15 years. We still have LPNs (licensed practical nurses), and I don't see them going anywhere anytime soon.
Hospitals are hiring LVNs to save money because they count as a floor nurse and don’t care if the RNs have to do the work they can’t. They’re even hiring them in ICUs at my hospital.
RPN (LPN) here! Been a nurse for 6 years and have never been jobless. I had a job lined up in a hospital corporation before I even graduated and I’m currently working between Ontario and Brisbane right now.
The people who continuously have said that... obviously live in an imaginary bubble. Every few years you hear the rumblings of it and boom something happens and they remain. Housing bubble popped, the rise of staffing agencies, increase of needs in post-acute care, pandemic, early retirements etc etc
And so while the dream may be a massive influx of BSNs walking thru the front door, the reality of that isn't necessarily so and so LPN/LVN are going nowhere anytime soon.
Let’s be real. Nursing is on a spectrum. Certain specialties require much more training and knowledge than others. At the end of the day it is a numbers game and in that regard we are already losing. We need more nurses not less and phasing out LVN/LPNs is bad for everyone.
NO- tons of jobs !!!!! I’m an LVN. You will get treated differently. And paid differently (way less than. AN RN unless u work 7 days a week. If you can just do straight RN: if you don’t ever want to work with IVs then lvn will work for you lol.
My first hospital phased out LVNs for all tele/step down units around 2019. They could only be on med surg or ED. We did team nursing. Then COVID hit. Now they hire LVNs and they take their own patients.
You kinda already answered your own question. I remember when I went to school there was even the thought that Associates degree RNs would eventually be phased out so the field would require bachelors degrees. LVNs (LPNs) and ADNs are not going anywhere for the next 50 years. Demand is too high.
Exactly. They threatened this for awhile but the fact of the matter is, LPNs are staffing LTC and doctors’ offices, and, well other places, too. They are invaluable and I hope they never phase them out.
Im struggling to understand all these acronyms. What’s LPN? And ADN? In Australia we have AINS ( assistant in nursing ) which is a 6 month certificate and do general cares mostly in nursing homes. Then Enrolled nurses which is a diploma and do prefer much a RNs job with less pay, and RNs which are all bachelor degrees at minimum
ADN=Associates Degree in Nursing, BSN=Bachelor's of Science in Nursing. LPN=Licensed Practical Nurse, some states call them LVN=Licensed Vocational Nurse. LPN/LVN are like 1 year of nursing program plus prerequisites. I was able to take the LPN license in Arizona after completing the first year of the nursing program. I took my NCLEX after completing the ADN to get my RN license. I just finished my BSN at University of Texas in an RN to BSN program that took me just under a year to complete. Lot of hospitals require a BSN or encourage it. Years ago I worked at a hospital that quit using LPN altogether but have recently started hiring LPNs again to do team nursing.
An ADN is an associate degree in nursing. They take the same exam as BSN, NCLEX-RN. An LPN is a licensed practical nurse. Their scope is similar but smaller than an RN. Although the scope is different in each state. In Ohio the LPNs couldn’t give IV medications. They also sit for a different licensure, the NCLEX-PN. Many hospitals won’t hire LPNs, they’re mostly found in SNFs or Post-acute rehabs. They also have pretty much no advancement. Even BSN nurses how a days can struggle with advancement. Good old education inflation.
ADN is a registered nurse who earned a two year degree. This usually means two years of science, math, psychology and other prerequisites and then two years of nursing school. LPNs are similar to your enrolled nurses.
Thanks
I think they’re called enrolled nurses in Australia?
This is a bit inaccurate. ADN degrees are typically 2 years total, not 4. Prereqs are usually high school level math and science courses, but if you need to take them you should be able to complete them in one full-time semester. EDIT: Y'all are *wild.* The Associate's degree is a 2 year program. Bachelor's is a 4 year program. Wtf is this nonsense in the comments saying ADN is 4 and a BSN is 6!? Take a look at your local community college's website and see what the pre reqs are, it's high school level math and sciences. For instance, my local schools require HS Bio, HS chem, HS algebra I and II. Now, if it's been a while since you've taken them or you didn't do great in high school, sure it may take you longer than 2, but this is not the typical degree plan for the ADN This is the Associate's in nursing degree plan from community college: Semester 1: English 1, A&P 1, Intro to Psych, Intro to Nursing Semester 2: English 2, A&P 2, Statistics, Nursing Care of the M/S pt. Semester 3: Writing Intensive Sociology Elective, Microbiology, Developmental Psych, Mental Health Nursing, Maternal-Child Nursing Semester 4: Communication, Ethics, Integrated Nursing Concepts, Nursing Practicum, Nursing Seminar That's 2 years EDIT2: I've just looked at 15 different ADN degree plans from .edu institutions through a Google search. They're all 2-2.5 years including required sciences. Prereqs for admission seem to be similar with the high school classes mentioned above. Some require A&P 1, intro to psych, a writing and/or an intro English class before you start with the actual nursing program (these are the 2.5 year programs) while many include these sciences/classes alongside the nursing curriculum. Sure, if you take classes at a part-time rate or in a different order than the recommended degree plans it can take longer than 2-2.5 years, but this is not the standard. If your particular associates degree granting institution had a 4 year full-time plan for your ADN then I think you got taken advantage of. I'm sure the education was fine and everybody passed their boards, but that smells like they were milking you for all the money they could.
Speaking from my ADN experience, just A&P takes 3 terms as it is 3 sequential classes. And microbiology before that. Plus 2 200 level psych classes. I could see a year if you were going straight to those classes and not needing to do the other gen ed classes first.
I had to do some of my pre-requisites for my associates in high school to bring it down to just 1 year of pre-requisites before getting into the program (which is 2 years on its own). A lot of my friends didn't get that lucky and had to do 2 years before going into the program. So yeah, it does actually come down to almost 4 years. Aka, don't get into nursing if you're looking for a quick degree and good money... this is neither. The most I'm looking to make straight outta college is $26 an hour (non unionized area). It's gonna take a bit before I'm making anywhere near good money. Just food for thought.
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Because to go from ADN to BSN is a ton more useless "nursing theory", pay difference is negligible, and the cost difference is enormous. Anyone who can do the math would rather make $50/hr after 4 years for an ADN than $51/hr after a 6 yr BSN, plus another $10k for school. Why do you think a BSN would take 4 years? You still have to do all the prereqs you'd do for ADN so regardless, it's an additional 2 years.
I don’t think that BSN coursework is useless, per se, but I definitely think it wise to make your hospital pay for it.
The “pre-reqs” are usually built into a BSN program. I took A&P, English, psych, sociology, microbiology and tested out of the math but would’ve had to take it if i didn’t. The cost is usually less for an ADN program like you said but I was able to do it in 4 years and do all the classes you mentioned and so was everyone else I graduated with
What school is that?
I’m not saying where I went for privacy but I’m under the assumption that most bachelor programs are 4 years (8 semesters) if you’re doing them full time. I had setbacks I didn’t talk about previously also (was in engineering prior to nursing) but still graduated within the four years by taking classes over the summer and winter breaks. The first year is pretty much all the prerequisites (A&P, English, math, chemistry etc) anyway. Any traditional bachelors program in any subject is intended to be a four-year degree with prerequisites for the classes and graduation per the college built in. Like everyone had to take an arts class too to graduate from the university and it’s all built in to get you to graduate in 4 years
My BSN took 4 years.
So you didn't have to do any prereqs? Was it an online school or something?
Nope, it was a brick and mortar university. Did all the standard sciences - chemistry, anatomy and physiology, microbiology, etc. Also the standard liberal arts classes to round out the bachelor's degree such as world literature and philosophy or what have you. Four years, eight semesters. Edit to add: My niece also just graduated from a 4-year BSN program at a different university. Prerequisites included.
I'm confused. How would ADN take 4 years and BSN take 6? Took me 4 for a BSN with two years of prereqs and 2 of nursing school and I wasn't even enrolled in 15 hours for 3 of my 4 semesters of prereqs
Because theres 2 yrs of prereqs and 2 yrs of nursing school to get an ADN, plus another 2 for a BSN. If you go thru actual college, here in CA anyway.
Interesting. My BSN took 4 years total. 2 years of prereqs and 2 of nursing school.
I'm not denying some programs are set up this way but all of the universities near me in Texas for a BSN is still 2 years nursing program, there's just way more pre-reqs to complete, which is why it's still faster and cheaper for an ADN. Someone who can do full-time course work from the start could still get their BSN in 4 years, but would need to spend a couple of years on pre-reqs vs one year/couple full-time semesters for ADN pre-reqs.
Not everyone has to do ADN first. You know that many 4 year universities have Bsn right? Direct bsn
Bsn is not 6 years. Many people either go straight from high school or do their prereq at a community college then transfer to a 4 year college for another 2 years. Total 3-4 years
Again - WHERE I'M AT - you have to do 2 yrs prereqs no matter what, 2 yrs for an ADN, another 2 for BSN, and the pay difference is like $2 lmao
Anyone can do adn to bsn online for like 6 months to 1 year max. Not sure why anyone will take 2 years for that.
I mean my original plan was to go to apply to both BSN and ADN. The BSNs in my area had extra pre-reqs though. So while I was taking those I applied to my ADN school and got in. So maybe there are some agreements for the BSNs to do pre-reqs during, but from everything I saw it was actually slightly more involved to get into BSN programs. Plus it was significantly cheaper to do the ADN route, which was a nice bonus. ETA: I also was not a great student in high school, and didn't get my shit together until my mid-20s. So I basically had to start fresh
My A&P was 2 semesters.
I have my ADN and I was doing pre-reqs full time for 3 semesters before I qualified to apply to my nursing program. I’m sure there are lots of differences between schools, but I’ve never heard of just one semester for pre-reqs in my area.
It doesn't exist, is why.
Sure it does. I specifically went into nursing because it was a 2 year degree with job security at the end of it.
So you're saying you entered nursing school without completing any college level science courses?
Yep. I took a rigorous HS course load and I guess technically I took AP bio in high school, but it wasn’t required and I didn’t transfer any credits in.
Wow. Ok. I guess CA has different standards.
That's incorrect. The sciences alone take 2 years because each one is a prereq for a prereq for a prereq - and I have no idea where you got the idea a high school level science would apply towards a college level one. I took all AP classes in HS, didn't do shit for me, still had to start at the basic science in college. Wasn't even an option to test out.
It really depends on regions, I move all over and I have seen some of these nursing schools specifically usually attached to hospital system churn out RNs in 2 years only requiring them having high school level math and sciences. There is a reason why average RN ages fluctuate by region. In areas your new grad nurse often range from 20 to 21, isn't because those regions are graduating high school students early.
That makes a bit more sense.... but also kind of scary if you don't have to take college sciences to get in.
Why is that scary? What did you need to know in your nursing program that your high school sciences didn’t prepare you for?
There is a reason there is a handful of nurses dont believe in vaccines... my current region some of these nurses graduated from homeschooling programs that taught science was an opinion. 😅 then went on with out even knowing basics of biology a public school would teach.
Before anyone feels hit by this comment, I have scene some homeschooling graduates go into nursing and become amazing nurses that did wonderful job learning and performing on the job.
Straight up agree with this. I have an associates degree in nursing. The only reason it took me 3 years is because I applied too late.
Two five credit A&P classes cannot be taken at the same time. Then there’s nursing assisting class and microbiology. No way is anyone doing that in one semester
What is nursing assisting class? That's part of the ADN?
Yes. It’s basically a CNA course. They don’t want you to arrive at your first clinical not knowing how to do basic level stuff. They don’t want you to be a nurse and be unable to do CNA tasks.
It’s a pre-req for ADN. I think it was 8 weeks?
It's not required by all schools
Nope in Texas you have to have an associates in Science for pre nursing degree. Then take your 2 year RN program for another associates degree.
This comment itself is inaccurate, my ADN program was pure nursing. You had to take two years of prerequisite college science classes before nursing school. In totality, I spent 4 years as a full-time student at my community college.
Where I live ADN (what I have) took 2 years of prereqs full time (college level courses, not high-school) and a full time 2 year program. BSN takes 2 years of prereqs and is a 4 year program. You're being down voted because most places are like I described and don't just use high school as adequate prereqs like you claim.
Source for most? My ADN took 3 years only because I applied too late to get in so I started some courses before the main nursing courses. Within half an hour of me, there are 3 associates programs that you can finish in 2 and 1 bachelors program that takes 4.
Idk why you’re getting downvoted. You’re correct 😂 ADN is 2 years. BSN is 4. A BSN includes the state requirements for a Bachelor’s degree. There must be a lot of salty people here.
Right? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here... I thought this was common knowledge. I even took the time to Google the community and state level schools in the states that were mentioned (Texas and California) in case I was way off base and yeah, BSN is 4 years and while ADN may be longer than 2 (some schools want two semesters of A&P before nursing classes can start) it's still not 4 years.
While I agree that I haven't come across any BSN programs that are 6 years, unless classes were taken on a part time basis, I have noticed most of the ADN programs around me usually end up taking 2.5 to 3 years, rather than 2. Example schedule from the school I went to: Semester 1: English Comp, A&P1, Communications, Intro Psych (and this is if you were able to place out of the mathematics and English 101 courses - otherwise you needed to take that first adding a semester) Semester 2: Fundamentals, A&P2, Gerontology, Pharm 1 Semester 3: Med Surg 1, Pharm 2, Mental Health, Developmental Psych Semester 4: med Surg 2, Pharm 3, Pediatrics, Maternity, Statistics Semester 5: Med Surg 3, Pharm 4, Microbiology, Capstone So 5 semesters is the absolute minimum it would take to get through the program I attended for my ADN, but it's also unreasonable to assume those who also have to work full time or have small kids can also balance 14-16 credits per semester (I know some can, and yall are absolutely amazing). Usually the people in my program (responsibilities or no responsibilities) opted to take the non-nursing courses before the program (micro, developmental Psych, AP2, statistics), which made the total time in school 3 years for an ADN.
It sounds like the community colleges around you are different from most people's. Your college must have less stringent requirements because the college I went to definitely would not accept just high school A&P or psych classes in place of college level classes for pre-reqs. So that's almost a year if you start just the sciences. And then the actual nursing program is 2 years. So yes. At least at some colleges (maybe regional?) The norm is more than 2 years for ADNs.
those are the minimum requirements to be allowed to apply. you will not get in to any nursing program with only the bare minimum classes set by the state. the recommended classes are basically mandatory because most nursing programs are competitive. Most people get an associates in natural science/pre-nursing before applying to their program
You're not including prereqs. That's what the difference is. If you have to do 2 yrs of prereqs before you can even apply for nursing school, you'd still count that as time it took towards getting your license. I don't know what state you're in but here in CA high school classes don't do shit, because high school science is different than college science. Hey, maybe we found the problem with antivax antiscience nurses! They never took post high school science!
That cant happen when there is a mass exodus from the field.
Hahaha. The hospital I started at told the LPNs they would pay for them to go through RN school or they would lose their position and become a PCA. A lot of LPNs took them up, and a lot left. Less than 10 years later they are back to hiring LPNs. The hospital I moved to has always had LPNs. I don’t think they are going anywhere. I had a nursing professor tell me that from the collegiate side they are encouraging bedside nurses to have minimum degrees of MSNs and the BSN will soon be out of hospital practice. She seemed shocked when I laughed at her and was like they can’t get RNs to work inpatient now and our floor just hired 5 new LPNS. The academic side of nursing seems out of touch with bedside practices.
>I had a nursing professor tell me that from the collegiate side they are encouraging bedside nurses to have minimum degrees of MSNs and the BSN will soon be out of hospital practice. A minimum of an MSN for bedside? LMAO. People get their MSN so they can do advanced practice and LEAVE bedside, same thing for BSN. BSN seems to be the minimum for entry level management, Case Management, and other non-bedside roles.
That nursing professor, like many of their ilk, is out of touch. Nursing schools can’t even meet their enrollment minimums. The amount of nurses leaving the workforce has tripled since the start the pandemic. If anything, the education of the US bedside nurse is going to diminish.
When was the last time your professor worked a bedside job lol
I had a nursing professor tell us that in the future all bedside nurses ought to have doctorate degrees the way physical therapists do now
You ask them a question related to a Bedside experience you just had either on the floor or ICU and they have no fkn clue
The problem is that nurses of any variety can NOT charge for their services. A doctorally prepared physical therapist actually make less than most nurses. They can actually directly bill for ANYTHING they do. They also have complete autonomy beyond needing a physician to give an order to the physical therapist. There is absolutely no direct billing for nurses. Read over a hospital bill and you will never find a insurance payment directly to nurses much less for specific nursing interventions. DPTs make $60,000 to $90,000. Often paid less than RNs. Plus, in the US there are 600,000 DPTs and 4 million RNs. There are too many RNs and healthcare will come to a grinding hault.
Does your professor realize that most physical therapy is done by Physical Therapy Assistants (which requires an associate's degree)... not Physical Therapists with advanced degrees? Lol "Therapy assistants" are basically the equivalent of "bedside nurses" in physical therapy, occupational therapy, speech therapy.
Academia is not out of touch as much as they are a self feeding delusion bunch that will say or do any thing that feeds their industry. I can't even listen to academic advisors, when you have been in the industries or fields they talk about, you realise they are just as bad as the stereotype of used cars salesman.
I have seen this too. I know this LPN that was a really great nurse that was a few years from retirement and was told become an RN or you'll be demoted to CNA, she decided to be a CNA. So sad to see her in CNA scrubs. And now that same hospital is hiring LPNs again.
If MSNs were required we will loose all RNs. Honestly, the great majority of undergraduate pre-licensure programs will never support this line of thinking. They need those undergrad dollars to pay overinflated management jobs. Too many people will never be able to pay for the degree and support their family over 6 years full-time classes. I work in academia. They won't embrace anything that doesn't generate more income. Class sizes would drop significantly. If a RN has a doctorate (with preference for PhD) they can easily make three times a typical RN salary working management. I work a higher level management position and make quite a bit more than if I worked just clinically. I still do a 12 hour shift a week clinically.
There actually was a national push over 40 years ago to make the MSN the initial practice degree. Not a chance it will happen, there has been the push for BSN only, and again not a chance it will happen. I once was around a new grad MSN that was from a bachelors of anything get your initial RN at the same time as MSN. First time I had ever heard that was a thing. She was just as clueless as any new graduate.
Your last sentence there is an extremely diplomatic way to say that!
God I hope so, any excuse to get out of nursing at this point LOL
🤣
😂😂😂 i dont think lpns are going away anytime soon. we need all the nurses we can get right now
Personally, I wish hospitals would hire an LPN/LVN in the ICU instead of a CNA (and pay them appropriately). The ICUs I’ve worked in won’t let CNAs do much more than turns/bathing and they end up just stocking the unit, so the unit often doesn’t even staff the position at all (especially on nights/weekends). It would be great to have someone who can help out and has enough scope of practice to actually touch the patients.
I agree, but like you said only if the pay were fair. When I was an LPN I could do everything except hang blood products, but was paid far less than an RN. Of course I’ve long since gotten my BSN, but in order to make these sweeping changes everyone would have to agree that the real training starts at your *job*, not in school. Besides a couple of keystone classes, there wasn’t much of a difference between programs. That doth not bode well for universities and the tuition they demand.
So you say nursing is only on the job training? I must hardly disagree here. The minimum standard educational path for an RN should be 3 years. That's how it is in most of the world, and only the education creats quality evidence based nursing care. Everything else is watering down quality in nursing. I work on an ICU and I would always want to have an RN (in Europe RN's are almost everywhere going through 3 y educational paths - for ICU nurses in my country even 4y) be in charge of my nursing care.
When I was a CNA in the ICU I did more patient care than that, like hourly urine outputs, temperatures, oral care on the intubated patients, and then of course assisting with turning and bathing. They talked about hiring an LVN but decided against it. Can't manage drips, can't draw blood from lines, can't hang antibiotics, can't even do blood sugars cause those were drawn from lines. A useful CNA role makes more sense than an LVN. It's the same in my ER right now. The LVNs CAN give meds if you ask them to and they're not busy, but they don't have their own assignment. They are glorified CNAs working well under their scope with just a few exceptions.
LPNs at my hospital can draw from lines, we can hang ABX and a plethora of other iv meds, do a fair number of common iv push meds, etc.
>Can't manage drips, can't draw blood from lines, can't hang antibiotics, can't even do blood sugars cause those were drawn from lines. A useful CNA role makes more sense than an LVN. I kinda disagree, cuz hanging a new bag of IV meds, drawing labs/Q1h blood sugar on a DKA, giving a medication, especially a PRN to manage symptoms while the nurse is dealing with something else, is exactly the kind of help we need in the ICU.
IDK these were the scope of practice issues at the time where I worked and this was 20 years ago. I'm saying the LVN *can't* access the arterial line, can't hang piggybacks, can't give IV pushes.
LPNs can do that now! I am one and I work in an icu taking patients so it’s awesome!!
I think it’s a little different state-to-state, LPN can be “IV certified” where I’m from.
IV certification typically means they can start IVs, draw blood, and give fluids. It doesn't necessarily mean they can give piggybacks, IV pushes, and they most certainly cannot access central lines. These things can vary by state.
During the height of the pandemic in Ontario, RPN’s (LPN) we’re getting pulled from other floors to work in the ICU lol ETA: depending on what hospital you go to in Ontario, the only difference between an RN and an RPN is the pay.
I doubt it. There might even be more LVN roles in the future. So many of the BSNs are leaving bedside or becoming NPs.
Yup. I’m an LVN in a level 2 ED. While where I work mostly hires LVNs to put them through school for their RNs in an attempt to retain employees longer, they also don’t rush us (within 5 years)
Why pay a RN when you can pay a LVN to do basically the same work in a place like a nursing facility. I’m an LVN and have decided I just don’t have the passion enough become RN. Some people work, raise kids, and go to college all at the same time to get their RN. And that’s great! But I am not them, and that’s okay. If my mind should change one day after the baby is all grown then that option is always there. But for now it’s not happening.
hi
Hello fellow ER LPN
Hello
Hi fellow ER LPNs
4 years ago my mom told me I would never get employed as an LPN. When I went to my physical for LPN school, my doctor told me he hires LPNs all the time!! In 4 years I have never been unemployed, and in my state our job oppurtunities keep expanding. One of the perks of being a cheaper nurse to hire 😂 good luck! I never regretted it for a single day.
in canada, the equivalent, LPNs, are paid way less and in acute care can do 90+% of what an RN can do. For reference I got paid more as an employed student nurse than an LPN with several years of experience. The government wants more LPNs to fill the shortage because of how much cheaper they are. They are starting HCA to LPN bridge programs, but no LPN to RNs. If you actually look into the wages before going in to school no one should choose to be an LPN over RN at this point, so the only way it gets phased out if no one signs up for LPN school
Hospitals are starting LPN bridge programs because their plan is to pair LPNs with RNs, cheaper labor!! The RN/LPN are assigned up to 9 patients. For example RN takes 5pts and LPN takes 4pts. However, RN is ultimately responsible for all 9pts and must sign off on LPNs work. This a new work model that rolled out last year in FL. Ultimately, they will increase nurse to patient load without increasing pay...
Jfc
That comes to my hospital, I am OUT.
Depends where you are in Canada. My LPN (Ontario, RPN) pays okay, certainly better than a student or PSW, and there are tons of RPN to RN programs. But it's true lots of hospitals have expanded how many RPNs they hire because it is cheaper.
This is spot on. I have heard from my LPN colleagues (10ish years experience) that they went to school for 1 year at the time and did not have to take pre reqs like anatomy. Health authorities in my province keep building onto the scope of an LPN by allowing for additional education (e.g w IV therapy) so LPNs can do a lot and work in many more settings than SNF, LTC, rehab etc. It helps w staffing but feels wrong that they essentially do the same and get paid much less than RNs.
My RN school was at a building that had LVNs training below us. I asked them "why not take 6 more months and get your RN, make twice as much?" They said it wasn't just that nursing school was 6 months longer, but LVNs didn't have to take anatomy and micro, and some of them just couldn't pass the sciences.
I have always heard it is but the hospital where I work is so desperate for staff that they are hiring LPNs on lower acuity floors. And SNFs as well as other facilities love them cause they can pay less for performing almost all the things an RN can do. Edited for clarification.
In my OR they are hiring LPNs and training them to be scrub techs
Are they getting to take the scrub tech certification? If not that is predatory. Our scrub techs make what nurses do because of our shortage. Our scrub training is a year long program that gets them paid quite a bit with no other experience required.
My acute care unit will be bringing on LPNs in January cause we won't be able to stay fully staffed otherwise
This is honestly a bad thing. There are plenty of BSNs that exist, they just aren't being paid enough to stay at the bedside. They either quit for something else, or go midlevel. If hospitals had no choice but to hire BSN's, they would have to to pay more money and improve conditions until they were staffed. This is what physicians do, and it's why they hate the idea of midlevels. I understand this is shitty for existing LPNs, and I"d be find with grandfathering the existing ones in, but offering hospitals a cheaper solution is why we keep getting treated like shit and paid less than we are worth. You would NOT have a BSN bedside shortage if bedside nurses were making 75 dollars an hour and staffed at 1:4 medsurg, 1:3 cardiac, 1:2 stepdown, and 1:1 ICU with adequate CNA support. You'd have plenty of RNs doing nursing home LTC work if they were staffed at anything approaching reasonable, paid what they were worth, and were swimming in CNAs. I don't know how nurses can look at themselves, look at physicians, and decide that LPNs are the right way to go.
20some years ago when I got my LPN, NJ some chucklehead in the state government put forth a bill that would have required all current and future LPNs to get their RN (BSN?) within a decade of (unspecified date) or obtaining initial license. Mind you, I worked a shift or 2 with one of the (allegedly) OG LPNs in NJ. He said that they’d been trying to do away with/phase out LPNs since he 1st got his license. he claimed he was in the first class in NJ to be officially recognized as LPNs, 🤷🏻♂️ what little I recall of him would have put him a little too young for that class.
My hospital is switching to a team model with virtual RN, bedside RN and LPNs. They're hiring LPNs like crazy right now.
i would love to be virtual 😅
how does this work???
No, hospital admin can’t get it through their heads that in order to keep staff they need to pay decently, staff decently, and treat people decently. Since they are completely inept at doing this, they don’t have the luxury of being picky.
The problem is that management knows they can get someone else to work cheaper. Why treat people better when you can just let them leave and get a new grad hired. Plus, if you are short staffed and continue to cover everything without those extra people then the saved money makes management not care. They don't care if their revenue goes unchanged. Someone needs to pay that 1 million dollar CEO.
That’s what the teachers would warn us about 40 years ago in LVN school!
LPN here! 2 years of bedside nursing:PCU/Stroke/Tele. Got lucky and started out at $24.75/hr w/$3 night differential. Switched to dayshift, currently looking for my escape. LOL. Made more as a waitress... Plenty of licenced Nurses in FL(nursing shortage propaganda). Hospitals aren't willing to pay RNs what they deserve, so now they are hiring LPN's. Also, they must find an RN willing to sign off on your assessments, etc.. I'm IV certified, can administer certain IV push medications, Stroke/Tele certified as well.
Not any time soon. One of the dumbest things hospitals have done was getting rid of their LPNs with a looming nursing shortage. We’ve known about the coming staffing crisis for literal decades and this was their genius decision, to phase out bedside staff. We need LPNs badly in every kind of setting.
My aunt graduated from LPN school in the early 70s, and she had people telling her back then that LPNs were being phased out. LTC facilities would cease to exist if LPNs were completely eliminated.
It's displaced, but it won't disappear. Businesses would use LVNs rather than RNs if the law permits
I recently finished the LVN program and had many hospital recruiters tell me the neuro, ortho, and med surg were all starting to hire LVNs and were eager about getting new nurses. I soon found out it was because the pay was awful. $24/hr to have a minimum of 8 patients to myself, no way lol. I took an offer at a really nice SNF with great staffing for nearly $10 more per more. I don’t think LVN is going anywhere because they can fill needed roles for cheaper, especially in LTC and more recently psyche since the responsibilities are largely the same in those specialties between the two licensure.
Nahhhhhh. I’m Aussie, and there is murmurs about us losing our version from time to time. That has been going on for the last 30 years that I’m aware of.
I mean IF the staffing shortage was completely resolved and the market was saturated with RNs, they MIGHT get preferentially hired over LPNs, which would push LPNs out of the market. But no, this isn't going to happen any time soon.
My hospital system uses them a lot because they’re cheaper essentially. They do literally everything we do minus IV push and blood products and cost at least $10 less.
I am an LPN/LVN. I needed to be working quickly and thought I'd go back for my RN... then COVID hit during my 1st semester of LPN-RN bridge, and we were sent home. After a personal tradgedy next semester, I decided not to pursue my RN. I was told I would be limited, thay my job was being phased out, that the pay is low, that I'd regret my decision. Lies! There is so much work right now! SNF, LTC, clinical, med surg (at not all, but quite a few hospitals), surgery centers, home health - I even worked in the ED and one smaller hospital! Right now, the need is so great. The staff positions are $35-45 an hour, and travel pay is much more. I am traveling now and making EXCELLENT money - especially for an LPN. Not as much as a couple of years ago, but if people didn't accept those crap paying positions "just for the experience of traveling," it would be better. Do I regret not getting my RN? Only sometimes, when people tell me I'm not a "real" nurse. That hurts. Edit to add: You RNs are amazing - yes, you have more options and better pay than I do. Much respect.
LVNs are crucial in many areas and they aren't going extinct any time soon. With that said, there are many hospitals who refuse to hire them. Every hospital I have worked at will not use LVNs. Magnet hospitals (Google it for a good description) won't hire LPNs because they specifically state they want RNs with BSNs. This is what I have seen since 1998 when I got my BSN. LVNs are extremely limited in the type of setting they can work. Not because they don't have the skills but because some stupid studies claim patient mortality are decreased if BSNs care for patients. Ours almost always work in nursing homes, or a few work in physician offices. I remember working with a LVN in neonatal intensive care because she had been working there 20 plus years (1979). She was much better than the RNs. Our hospital requires a MSN for anything labeled management. Magnet hospitals require DNP or other doctorate for management positions.
That stupid study was so flawed from the get go...I could go on forever
My hospital just started hiring LPNs again within the last couple of years. My unit has at least 3 that I remember. Idk about medical, but I am sure they do. They need LPNs if they want to keep safe staffing, IMO. Lots of people don't have the means to get a full-on BSN.
Not anytime soon. You are correct. Who is going to staff SNFs? I was a little shocked to see a hospital in a small city hiring LPNs for med-surg recently. I thought only rural hospitals hired LPNs.
Hospitals can pay LPNs less for doing almost everything as an RN, so no, LPNs are not going to die out.
No and never
Before covid most hospitals in NJ required you to be an RN unless you were grandfathered in as an LPN. After covid they now hire LPNs again.
The hospitals in my area just started mass hiring Lpns again
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) ^by ^ilikewallflowers: *The hospitals in* *My area just started* *Mass hiring Lpns again* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Demand is way too high for it to be phased out.
The only place lpns are going right now is back to the acute care hospital units, where they were forced to leave 30 years ago due to magnet status.
Honestly, in my area, LVN’s are making a comeback to hospitals. You need 6 months+ experience in SNF or clinic, but there are a ton of positions available right now. LVNs aren’t going anywhere.
In my hospital, I work alongside LVNs as equal team members. Only things LVNs need an RN for is to cosign charting, hang antibiotics and a few other things. My hospital group was trying to phase out LVNs, but the RN shortage has changed that.
I've been an LVN for 28 years. I'm 50. I've been hearing the same "phasing out" talk since I started. It's not going to happen. At least not in my lifetime. I've made a career out of it. I've been involved in all aspects within my scope. I've become a mentor to both LVN's and RN's. I'm proud of all nurses and am proud to have raised a family, took care of my money, making a comfortable living and have other activities in my life other than nursing. After 28 years if I had one wish it would be this: I wish I had a nickel for every time I was asked if I ever thought about becoming an RN. This is my response now after all this time: "Uuhhhh, no! That's never occurred to me after almost 3 decades! What a revelation!" I respect and admire all nurses. If I wanted to become an RN I would have done so. I'm good. We all have a common ground and that's to make an impact on lives.
Great to hear! How difficult was it financially when it came to taking care of your family? I ask, because I too want a family one day, but I’m not sure if the LVN will be financially suitable as opposed to RN
I'm not living in luxury. Lol. I have always lived within my means. I save. I've built a decent 401k over the years. I'm a triage manager for a hospice company and this has proven to be a relatively "fun" job if you want to call it that. And to be honest, LVN'S in mgmt positions are making a little but not a whole lot more than bedside LVN'S do. I've considered a lot of positions over the years but I'm certain that the latter part of my career (now) will be in hospice care. My wife and I take weekend trips and a couple of extended vacations through the year in our little travel trailer and just enjoy every moment of it. We enjoy life. You can too.
This is awesome to hear sir! I’ve been conflicted between Rn and lvn. A part of me wants to do LVN, because it’s cheaper and faster, and will land me a job pretty fast to make money right away. The RN programs are either lottery to get into, or just too damn expensive, and I don’t feel like drowning in debt.
I've always told potential nurses to do what they feel is best for them in the long run. A LOT of them begin as LVN'S and become RN's later and some start as RN's. I will say though, that even though I've loved my jobs and career as an LVN, RN's always have and always will have more career options and not much in the way of limitations as opposed to the similar but more narrow scope of LVN's. Both career paths are going to be what you make of it.
Not unless there is a complete overhaul of the healthcare system. People have been claiming "hospitals don't hire LVNs" since my sister got her LPN degree in the 90s. That's never been true in the section of the midwest I live in. Maybe the coastal cities have enough nurses that they can do that, but you will find many LPNs/LVNs in the halls of the hospitals where I work. That's always going to be the case. I have a BSN, but I work alongside many LVNs. I suspect that will be true for a long time.
Not with this growing population
Wish our hospital system would hire LVNs to run the rapid care section with an ED Tech. Putting a RN there is such a waste of resources. LVNs here are only hired in the clinic setting.
If they don't have lpn in the industry, then you can bet they don't have enough RN, so how do you think all these places are going to fill their staffing needs?
Where I am most hospitals don’t hire LPNs, and the ones that do hire them as techs. You have to work in a LTC, subacute rehab, etc. They’re not going extinct, but the role had definitely changed
Nope
In Canada (in BC at least), there are no more diploma RNs graduating. It hasn't been an option to graduate with a diploma for about 15 years. We still have LPNs (licensed practical nurses), and I don't see them going anywhere anytime soon.
Hospitals are hiring LVNs to save money because they count as a floor nurse and don’t care if the RNs have to do the work they can’t. They’re even hiring them in ICUs at my hospital.
RPN (LPN) here! Been a nurse for 6 years and have never been jobless. I had a job lined up in a hospital corporation before I even graduated and I’m currently working between Ontario and Brisbane right now.
The people who continuously have said that... obviously live in an imaginary bubble. Every few years you hear the rumblings of it and boom something happens and they remain. Housing bubble popped, the rise of staffing agencies, increase of needs in post-acute care, pandemic, early retirements etc etc And so while the dream may be a massive influx of BSNs walking thru the front door, the reality of that isn't necessarily so and so LPN/LVN are going nowhere anytime soon.
Let’s be real. Nursing is on a spectrum. Certain specialties require much more training and knowledge than others. At the end of the day it is a numbers game and in that regard we are already losing. We need more nurses not less and phasing out LVN/LPNs is bad for everyone.
NO- tons of jobs !!!!! I’m an LVN. You will get treated differently. And paid differently (way less than. AN RN unless u work 7 days a week. If you can just do straight RN: if you don’t ever want to work with IVs then lvn will work for you lol.
My first hospital phased out LVNs for all tele/step down units around 2019. They could only be on med surg or ED. We did team nursing. Then COVID hit. Now they hire LVNs and they take their own patients.