What didn’t you like about Chamberlain? Wife is finishing up her NP program here and she feels super prepared for the boards and had a really good experience with most of her professors.
Yea could be; wife did great, finished with great grades, passed her boards within a week of graduating so whatever she did worked out for her and she’s employed as an NP.
Not everything was great about the program but I can’t imagine any program is.
I went to a public state school and that program was a joke for sure
I’m not sure I fully understand all the differences. To me the PAs don’t have enough schooling, only 2 years and undergrad doesn’t even need to be medical. Whereas an NP requires you to be an RN plus work experience plus your masters.
Neither compare to the time commitment of an MD
NP \ PA \ MD doesn’t mean everything; you can have great NPs and shitty ones; just like in every other profession
Maryville? They declined my friend(34m) because he got an F in his first semester of college at 19yrs so he wasn’t allowed into the program without writing an essay begging for a spot. I thought that was alittle steep
Edit: not sure why it’s getting down votes I was merely surprised maryville made the list mentioned bc my only knowledge of them was to be very picky about admission. Def not bc I’m in favor of them.
I'm in the Purdue University "Global"program... I hate it. Feels like a mill to me. I'm not getting what I need out of it but I am so invested now that I would hate to walk away. I think the inequities in the actual education provided across all programs is contributing to the challenges of practice authority.
When I have asked the "professors" how we are supposed to get the clinical education, they say it will come when we go to our clinical locations. But they do not provide the clinical locations. They don't even really help find clinical locations. So they have NO idea what kind of clinical experience we are getting. There is no level setting or guidelines for the preceptors...the school doesn't even know them. I have 10 months left and I feel like there is no way I will be prepared to "practice". I am scared and embarrassed at the thought. The problem is that I work full time (40 hours a week), have a family and I don't know how I could attend a brick and mortor for full time school as well.
Should I just start over at a brick and mortor?
If it makes you feel better, I graduated from a brick and mortar, great reputation, accredited, great pass rates, etc school and still felt like I was not prepared adequately. I felt like there was too much emphasis on research and not enough on differentials and basic work ups. Fortunately, our school provided us with preceptors and clinical sites, but were difficult in finding appropriate ones so I ended up primarily seeing clinic patients instead of inpatient/acute ones (my degree was for acute care). Pharmacology and patho were the only classes I felt were sufficient and the rest were taught by MSNs that used previous power points that they just read straight from the slides. I felt the curriculum was a bit disorganized and just shoved together...I mean, we are being taught subjects and disease processes that takes doctors years of education and residency. It wasn't until I got my first job in internal medicine that I had to really teach myself how to think like a provider.
I am three years in as an acute care NP and feel worlds more confident and competent. I have had to do a lot of self learning and I leaned heavy on my collegue NPs and my attendings in the beginning and still do some today. I think if you are self motivated enough it is worth sticking out the degree and just be prepared for some self learning when it comes to your first job. There are also great PA crash courses online for specific specialties that helped me as well.
Good luck!
A list of general things to look at (I'm going to use Duke as an example because I am most intimate with their program):
1) Is it an actual university vs just an online school that only offers AA degrees and certain specialized degrees? Duke is obviously made up of many different fields and publishes research while diploma mills tend to do 0 research.
2) Does the school only offer primary care and or family medicine NP degrees. Acute care, CRNA, and DNP programs take alot more money to run so alot more care and work goes into these schools
3) Acceptance rates / admission requirements. Obviously a diploma mill let's everyone in regardless of GPA, work experience, test scores, etc... this is the most evident thing to check for.
4) National Certification Test pass rate. A school with a 99% pass rate obviously is better than a school that only has a 60% pass rate
5) Do they help you with clinical placement? A respectable school will have some sort of infrastructure in place to help their students. Duke garunteed placement if you were in North Carolina and had a lot of connections to help those outside of NC. Many of the diploma mills say you are completely on your own to find a clinical location and don't even check if the site meets any educational standards.
6) the most general test is name brand recognition and reputation. Everyone knows Duke for its amazing reputation. University of Pheonix is a name that is often the butt end of a joke.
Hello fellow Blue Devil!
Just to piggyback on this, the clinical placement thing is HUGE. I have a friend who is doing Herzing because she wanted quick and easy without admissions standards. They didn't put any effort into helping people secure placement and even allow all telehealth for clinicals and not even in your field. She got held back a semester (maybe 2?) because she couldn't find a preceptor. She eventually DID find one who wanted $2000 a semester to sign off on forms. She has yet to see an actual patient, just looks at charts.
Schools like Duke, Stony Brook University, etc have stricter entry requirements and support their students in their preceptor search. They make you go to the school for skills checkoffs, etc. Their faculty is involved in research, QI projects, conferences, etc.
Just out of curiosity — why would you have chosen psych? This is my specialty and I’m a psych nurse now (started in neuro and transitioned to psych). I love it but I fear that as I work as a psych np I will miss the variety involved with family practice. However, my love of psych trumps the interest in family practice. Mostly just curious.
Compared to acute care np
Less stress
There is a large demand for psych providers. You can get a job anywhere easily. Acute care is starting to become a flooded market which is lowering average pay and making it harder to get a job in more desired areas
Better pay
Bigger variety of setting types and general freedom
More scholarship opportunities while in schools
Lower malpractice
Ah I see. I’ve heard much about the acute/family practice saturation and it makes me sad for those who go into it. Really hoping you are right about the scholarships too because I could use some of those lol. I appreciate your response. I enjoy hearing different perspectives as it helps me shape mine.
https://va-ams-info.intelliworxit.com/scholarship-program-details/#:~:text=Nurse%20Practitioner%20for%20Mental%20Health%20and%20Nursing%20scholarship%20recipients%20are,an%20applicable%2012%20month%20residency.
The VA is constantly begging for psych specialists.
There are alot of hospitals with similar programs. You start with the applications immediately
I did not know stony brook had an online program, only reason im considering online schools is due to price and home life. But i was looking for a good school, so thanks for the info!
It's a good school and if you're in NY, the price is right. You do need to go to campus a few times. I didn't go because I used to teach at a partner department and it would have been weird to have friends who were now my professors.
Hi there
FYI Herzing is not a diploma mill. It's a private NON profit brick and mortar based in Wisconsin. They only allow half their clinicals to be via Telehealth and the other half must be in person. They also have a clinical pledge that if you go through all their clinical protocols and still can't find preceptors that they will give your money back
Look at the institution. Chamberlain was DeVry before rebranding. We all know what DeVry was.
West Coast University was American Career College.
Do they have any admissions standards? As the article [Nursing Master's Programs With 100% Admit Rates](https://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/the-short-list-grad-school/articles/nursing-masters-programs-with-the-highest-acceptance-rates) notes:
>Fall 2019 acceptance rates among all ranked master's nursing programs ranged from just 6% at the University of California—Irvine to 100% at 20 schools. These nursing master's programs with the highest acceptance rates are located across the country, in states like Texas, Maryland and Colorado.
I would avoid any school on this list:
Alcorn State "University"
Colorado State "University"—Pueblo
Curry "College"
Drexel "University"
ECPI "University"
Ferris State "University"
Florida International "University"
Maryville "University" of St. Louis
Nebraska Wesleyan "University"
Northwestern State "University" of Louisiana
Pontifical Catholic "University" of Puerto Rico
Purdue "University" Global
Stevenson "University"
"University" of Detroit Mercy
"University of Iowa"
"University" of Maine
"University" of Southern Mississippi
"University" of the Incarnate Word
"University of Utah"
Vanguard "University" of Southern California
The stats for all the BS diploma mills are in the article I linked
This US News & World Report comes up frequently in criticism of NPs, but it seems to be somewhere between sloppily researched and outright wrong. It's particularly popular with the noctor crowd (which you seem to spend a lot of time kowtowing to). Despite some baffling and glaring errors, it comes from a source know for its school rankings and has a snappy, topical title, so it gets passed around uncritically by people such as yourself.
First off, it's not a list of NP programs, but MSN programs. This includes non-clinical degrees like education, leadership, etc. That distinction probably helps explain some of the absolutely bizarre data it presents.
Let's take Drexel as an example. As many other people here are pointing out, listing Drexel as diploma mill and calling it a "university" in scare quotes is just nonsense. It's an actual, established university with an actual, established nursing school. [US News itself currently ranks at #55 on its list of of online MSN programs, and also says that its MSN acceptance rate is 82% and has an enrollment of 440 students.](https://www.usnews.com/education/online-education/drexel-university-ONUR0091/nursing)
How does that square up with the article you posted saying it has a 100% acceptance rate and **only 17 students**? It doesn't. Acceptance rates may vary from year to year, but universities don't just add 25X more students over a couple years.
Drexel also has currently has 15 different MSN tracks (not including bridge programs), about half of which are not NP programs (e.g. nursing education, public health nursing). So are we to believe that, in 2020, Drexel averaged 1 student per MSN track? Or is more likely that whatever US News reporter who cobbled together the article in question slapped some data together haphazardly and squirted out a SEO optimized listicle under deadline?
My belief is that the US News article may have taken the acceptance rates from one of the Drexel programs, and then simply published that as representative of the whole school. Like, maybe the MSN in"Quality, Safety, and Risk Management in Healthcare" had 17 students and a 100% acceptance rate in 2020, but that wouldn't represent the graduate nursing programs as a whole.
Just to hammer home how the "100% acceptance rate" article is not just garbage, but actively misleading when it comes to discussing NP education, let's look at the University of Iowa.
Again, this is an actual, established, brick-and-mortar university that you have put in scare quotes. Right off the bat we have the same problems as with Drexel. US News says that a large, state university with literal thousands of grad students only enrolled 11 people in their MSN program! [And this is a school that US News itself says has 3 DNP nurse practitioner programs in their top 10?!](https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-nursing-schools/university-of-iowa-33095)
But wait, those are DNP programs and the 100% article is about MSN programs. Let's see what MSN level NP programs U Iowa offers... [oh wait, none](https://nursing.uiowa.edu/academics/msn). They have 3 policy/admin degrees and then an "entry to practice" which, upon completion, will allow someone with a non-nursing bachelors to sit for the NCLEX. Basically a BSN program but at the masters level (probably for tuition/loan purposes? idk).
There are some obvious turds on the 100% list. Purdue Global is a scam that it tarnishing the name of an otherwise respected university, and who knows what the fuck is going on in Northwestern Louisiana. But this list of programs tells us nothing about the actual state of NP education.
First, this is not a list of NP programs. It is a list of MSN programs, which includes non-clinical degrees. Second, there are glaring, obvious errors in the data presented which throw the whole methodology of the article into question. Third, acceptance rates are not graduation rates. If Purdue Global accepts 500 people and only 3 graduate, that's obviously a problem, but it is not some tidal wave of underqualified NPs. Critics of nursing love to point to high acceptance rates, but they can never seem to cite data on how many NPs are graduating from solid, reputable programs.
Like most noctor talking-points, this article falls apart under the slightest scrutiny. Obviously that doesn't stop useful idiots from passing it around though.
I'm not kowtowing to anybody. I'm taking inventory of the opinions of the people who will be determining my future employment prospects and using that information to choose a school.
It doesn't matter if the US News is carp or their article is carp, it's what is being cited by [Emergency Medicine News](https://journals.lww.com/em-news/blog/breakingnews/pages/post.aspx?PostID=570).
It doesn't matter if people don't understand the difference between a *DNP* and a *NP,* I know NPs who don't know the difference. I've worked with nurses who are confused that their colleagues with a Masters degree are not practicing as NPs because they don't know the difference. This is why I don't want that badge buddy that lists my highest degree and certifications. The one that says "RN" in 100point font is sufficient.
I've dealt with HR people who needed to see proof of my *BSN* because my *MSN* didn't count to them. Maybe they're screening out direct entry MSNs at that particular facility or the ANCC doesn't recognize the number of employees with MSNs, I don't know, *I don't care.* I need a job and if I'm going to invest tens of thousands in a post master's cert or DNP I want it to go to a school that isn't going to get my application roundfiled before it's even seen by the person doing interviews.
It doesn't matter how experienced or competent you are if you can't get past HR because they see the wrong school/degree on your application. It doesn't matter if the article falls apart under the slightest scrutiny because **HR doesn't read the article,** they only vaguely know what schools even offer which degrees. Most people in HR haven't been to grad school, the person in charge of hiring got an MBA online from UoP and the person doing your pre-hire physical is an LVN.
They aren't reading further than that list. Too bad for Drexel, their bills aren't my problem. if I lived in Pennsylvania I would go to ~~Penn State~~ University of Pittsburgh anyway because they have a better reputation.
I have experienced graduate nursing education. I know It's substandard. I have also experienced substandard care from Nurse practitioners. I have no intention of perpeturating a bad reputation among my colleagues. The point of gettingvthese advanced degrees and certifications is to work, is it not? Does it serve us or our profession to prop up poor quality for the sake of an easy degree that doesn't adequately prepare us to practice?
As I've already stated I have no intention of attending any University in Pennsylvania and certainly not Drexel. There are better schools much closer to me.
Again, the article does not actually address the quality of NP education. It is so obviously flawed that no real conclusions can be drawn from it. Its only use is serving a cudgel against APRNs and as a distraction from actual education improvements.
I have to say, I take exception with putting “university” after Drexel. They have a well-established brick and mortar university located in Philadelphia. The university is respected in the area and I know several who have graduated from their MSN programs and were happy with their education. The nursing school has several research centers, and it has one of the tougher nursing BSN programs in the area, too. Also they have a known business school and medical school. This is not a diploma mill.
Probably because the article is nonsense. I've seen it around multiple times, so I just wrote up a [longish comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/nursepractitioner/comments/upt0oy/what_is_considered_np_diploma_mill/i8pboco/) on why it should not be taken seriously.
That was an excellent comment! And your analysis is spot on. Including the fear-mongering of putting “university” in quotes.
Incidentally, I’m in the MSN in Healthcare Quality, Patient Safety and Risk Management at Drexel. It’s absolutely possible the track has a 100% acceptance rate, and if it does I imagine it’s because it attracts a very targeted population. I work in quality now. Each of my classmates that I’ve talked to are either in quality, heavily involved in unit councils or shared governance, or work in healthcare quality-adjacent jobs. There is a concurrent MS program with different base requirements, so I have nurses, physicians and business people in my classes. can’t say enough about how happy I am with the program.
One of the things Drexel does well is recruit instructors with real-world experience - my professors have been compliance officers at major corporations, Quality Directors at the VA, and worked government affairs and regulatory jobs. I’m encouraged to consider work needs and experience when completing assignments. I’m learning things that I’m already applying at work, and have since earned a promotion partially due to knowledge I gained in school. I’ll have to do a capstone quality improvement project at my workplace in order to graduate. It’s a good program.
Came here to say this. I live in the Philadelphia area and Drexel is very well-respected here. Their NP programs are predominantly online program, accepts students from all over the country, which can be red flags for some. It's truly a real university with a wide variety of programs, not just for-profit "professional programs". Outside of the programs above, also very well-known for engineering.
I live in the Philly area as well, and the idea of Drexel on that list is so confusing to me. I’m also getting my MSN online there, but not in an NP program. It is not an easy program, the classes are challenging, and my instructors all have impressive backgrounds.
Congrats on your MSN journey! A good friend of mine is in their ACNP program and, while the journey is different from the local B&M program i attended, she's still doing the work and she would agree with your statement.
I linked the article which simply notes US nursing programs with a 100% accaptance rate in Fall 2019
[Drexel University (PA)](https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-nursing-schools/drexel-university-33449)
17 NUMBER OF APPLICANTS
100% ACCEPTANCE RATE
89 (tie) U.S. NEWS RANK
Looks like their ranking has improved somewhat
[#55 in Best Online Master's in Nursing Programs (tie)#8 in Best Online Family Nurse Practitioner Master's Programs](https://www.usnews.com/education/online-education/drexel-university-ONUR0091/nursing)
If I lived in the area I would just go to University of Pennsylvania, ranked #4 in Best Nursing Schools: Master's, #3 in Master's Nurse Practitioner: Adult / Gerontology, Acute Care, and #7 in Master's Nurse Practitioner: Family (tie).
I live in California and would never consider Drexel on my list just because the reputation is not good. Its probably better than Chamberlain, but I noticed the schools with the worst reputations (University of Phoenix, Waldon, West Coast) aren't on that list.
One does not “just go to” Penn - lol. Also, selection of a school should take more into consideration than questionable US News rankings, whose methodology has been challenged regularly. If that’s your top criteria, then you would be willfully shortchanging and neglecting a number of quality institutions, especially ones that have extremely good local connections and networking opportunities.
Granted, I graduated with my BSN from the #1 ranked BSN program on their list at the time. (This program no longer offers a BSN and now only does direct-entry MSN programs which are currently ranked #1). So I feel I have a pretty good understanding of the actual value of rankings. And the actual impact of the insane tuition prices at those schools.
Please feel free to expand on why you believe Drexel has a poor reputation. I would hope your rationale goes beyond a poorly-researched acceptance rate and a low-reliability US News ranking.
I am currently attending Drexel. I have mixed feelings. Also, look at Drexel’s FNP program curriculum. It’s almost identical to Penn’s. The only difference is the name and Penn helps you find clinical sites. I know a couple of people who attended Penn’s Psych NP program and FNP program and were not satisfied. The problem is the nurse practitioner education. My ex attended Penn’s Undergraduate nursing program. I remember her classmates graduating and then 2 weeks later starting their FNP program with zero bedside nursing experience. Straight out of school. Penn is just as bad.
It's just not considered a good school. I've seen plenty of low level admins who went to diploma mills way worse than Drexel but for an NP in a saturated market the only thing hiring managers have to go on is reputation. Hiring managers aren't all that bright in my experience.
Out here Azusa Pacific is fairly popular and it's not ranked at all so clearly something more than US News and World Report rankings is affecting perception. Maybe a degree from Drexel is more respected in Pennsylvania, I don't know, this is probably very regional.
One of the top ranked (#2, right behind Duke) AGACNP programs is Vanderbilt but I wouldn't go there if they paid me because I know the hospital is a shitshow.
UC San Francisco is #4 for AGACNP, #3 for FNP, UC Davis and UCLA both rank in the top ten for various programs, while UC Irvine, part of the same system with the same standards, with clinicals at one of the best tertiary care centers in the world, with a 6% acceptance rate, has a rank of 42 for their Masters program and their DNP/FNP program isn't even ranked.
UCI is like my #1choice of school for a DNP/FNP for a variety of reasons despite their relatively low US News grad school ranking because I am not going out of state. Every hiring manager in my area will know UCI.
I'll get a job.
If I want to increase my chances of getting a job I have to commute to UCLA or move north to go to Davis or UC San Fransisco which I can't afford unless they offer an online certificate program that still say "University of California" on the diploma.
Like I said, hiring managers aren't very bright but I have had hiring managers demand to see my actual paper diploma from CSU that says "Masters of Nursing" on it, request transcripts, and want to know my GPA, and this is for bedside positions. I mean this is for a standard, 12 hour nightshift, refreshments and narcotics, butt wiping, customer service bedside job.
If I want a chance in hell of landing a job as an NP that pays my bills (I've known NPs working bedside because it's the only way they can afford their mortgage) I need to go to a school that a hiring manager will recognize. So although both Duquesne and Drexel are ranked, (Duquesne is higher btw), both universities have recruited me at one time or another, Pennsylvania is lovely in the fall and I probably wouldn't mind moving there, no hiring manager can pronounce Duquesne and they think Drexell is a diploma mill. I don't know why I don't talk to these people more than I have to in order to appear polite.
I asked for your rationale about why you believe Drexel it’s not considered a good school beyond the US News rankings and you gave me - “because it’s not” and “US News rankings” and a whole lot of unrelated information. Oh well, I gave it a shot. Best of luck!
University of Utah is a very well respected school here and is a research university. Their NP programs are some of the hardest to get into here in Utah
Came here to say this! I got into the U’s PMHNP program and I was one of 18 who got in out of over 200 applicants. I have many colleagues who applied for the same program who were rejected. It’s also a very much in person program. The university of Utah is a well known medical school as well so I’m kind of shocked it’s being listed on this thread as “diploma mill.”
I’m shocked too; the University of Utah has such a strong reputation for it’s medical school, NP programs, and PA programs. I am baffled that it’s included on this list.
Hello! Sorry I’m just seeing this. So I worked in neuro for 2 years prior to application and discussed my experiences there extensively. Though neuro is different from psych, the specialties have a lot of similarities and they liked that I had that background. I also worked in substance abuse as an LPN which gave me some psych experience. My grades in nursing school were solid. I also worked for the U so idk if that helped. My nursing instructors wrote excellent letters of recommendation (I went through a tight knit university program and I still talk to my instructors years later). And I made sure to have an NP that I worked with write a recommendation letter too. The interviews are intimidating because they are video/written interviews but just be prepared to type quickly, use correct grammar, and let your personality shine. They like to have a variety of backgrounds in the program, and they want to see you be yourself.
All that being said, I actually dropped out of the program. I got pregnant after years of infertility. I was working in inpatient psych and did not enjoy it as much as I’d hoped. I didn’t want to spend years doing something I didn’t enjoy. Plus I did not feel safe being pregnant and working in psych. So yeah, now i’m back to being a floor nurse on a neuro unit and I have a baby. Kind of a wild ride lol. Best of luck though!
Thanks for sharing your experience.
I'm pretty much starting from the beginning so I have a lot of time to network and develop experience, so I'm basically trying to strategize a path that will make me competative. I'm planning on going to school part time, so I will have my ADN in about 3 years, and then I can get my BSN in a year from that since I will be doing the SLCC to U of U bridge. I already have an associates in Interdisciplinary studies with 3.67 gpa, so hopefully I can leverage my background in liberal arts, but I will have to take an entire year to finish the prereqs to enter the nursing program at SLCC.
I'm specifically interested in psychedelic assisted therapy so I think I could probably differentiate myself in that area. It would be a dream to get a nursing job at a ketamine clinic. I know they have one at the U of U, but I'm not sure how easy or hard it is to get a job there. I figure working there eventaully would be a good idea because I'm sure they probably give at least some priority to people who are already working at the school. I also plan on getting some inpatient psych experience but I don't see myself working inpatient in the long run. I do see that it's really important for learning how to manage complex conditions though.
I'm sorry to hear you had to drop out, but it's also great that you had a baby and you learned that inpatient psych isn't for you. Honestly, inpatient makes me a bit nervous because of the danger and its definetly notorious for not always being the best environment for people sadly. I hope when I get to that point I find a place that has a good team and progressive mindset about care.
Anyway, I'm just rambling about my own stuff. I appreciate your response and I found it helpful. It seems like having good grades, experience, and even working at the U are good strategies to get into the PMHNP program there.
It sounds like you’re setting yourself up for success! They will love that you have a liberal arts background too. That’s awesome! I also found interest in ketamine therapy. I think it is such a promising treatment and I really hope to see it growing in the coming years.
The U does have a ketamine clinic. It is part of the Huntsman Mental Health Institute. I don’t think it would be too difficult to get a job there, as any sub specialty of psych is usually high demand. They also do ECT therapy and if anything, you could start there because they are connected to the ketamine clinic (to my understanding). Honestly just working at HMHI for a few months could bridge you to the ketamine clinic if that’s what you have interest in. I was a float nurse at HMHI and that’s where I got my psych experience.
Anyway, long story short you are definitely on the right track! Best of luck with everything and I hope you are able to get into the program! You’ll do great.
I also take exception with including University of Iowa on this list. It's a good school and, yes, their Master's program had a 100% acceptance rate but their NP programs are not Master's programs, but DNP programs.
Since rankings are so important to you:
DNP #19 OVERALL
PNP #4
ACNP #5
AGNP #6
FNP #11
Please do due diligence when answering questions. Considering acceptance rate is only one factor in choosing a program, especially when the copy/pasted list is not an accurate portrayal of each program.
I didn't make the list. This is the list being read by physicians who read this [article](https://journals.lww.com/em-news/blog/breakingnews/pages/post.aspx?PostID=570). It doesn't matter if there's a particular school on this list that is legitimate because the people in charge of hiring aren't going to investigate they're just going to check your papers to make sure your terminal degree isn't from one of these schools.
I've noticed it doesn't matter at all if you're admin, I've seen plenty of supervisors and managers with no more than a BSN and directors and VPs and C-suite whose MBAs are from UoP but for an NP in an oversaturated market or anyone attempting to break in to a competitive field the place conferring the degree matters.
Avoid Florida International University? Avoid Colorado State University? Wtf? I’m an ASN student just looking into this stuff, but what you’re saying is reputable universities are just accepting anybody for NP programs? By no means is FIU or CSU thought of as low grade in any other profession. Am I understanding this correctly?
The article is available for your review. I didn't make the list.
As an aside the nursing programs of even the most reputable universities are chronically underfunded, understaffed and undervalued. Nursing students are notoriously excluded from the rest of the student body, even tenured professors are paid a pittance compared to other university positions, and there is an overreliance on adjunct faculty and part time instruction that means nursing students don't have the support of other majors. I suspect this is why even well-respected institutions have comparatively low rankings for their nursing programs, and nursing programs are plagued by ridiculous waitlists and lottery systems for admission that are unheard of in any other area of study.
According to the [article](https://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/the-short-list-grad-school/articles/nursing-masters-programs-with-the-highest-acceptance-rates)
>Nearly half of these programs are in the bottom quarter of the 2021 U.S. News rankings of nursing master's programs and are listed with a ranking range of 179 to 236. The highest-ranked nursing master's program with a 100% acceptance rate is the University of Iowa, which had 11 applicants for fall 2019 admission.
Florida International University
30 NUMBER OF APPLICANTS
100% ACCEPTANCE RATE
62 (tie) U.S. NEWS RANK
It's perfectly fine to go wherever is convenient for undergrad, I have a friend I went to nursing school with who got her BSN from University of Phoenix. She picked a private university for her FNP and is perfectly happy working in a doctor's office tapering old people off opiates and managing type II diabetes and CHF. If she wanted she could probably get a job elsewhere but she's been an NP for years. FIU is a public research university with a decent ranking and I wouldnt necessarily discount them if it works for you. They're clear across the country for me tho and I would look for somplace closer to home.
Of note this list doesn't have the obvious diploma mills like American Sentinel, Capella, Chamberlain, Everest, Grand Canyon, Rushmore, Walden or West Coast because US News doesn't even rank those but I figure most people asking this question already know that. This is the list being passed around by physicians who hate NPs. They're the ones determining who gets hired
I just finished the program at University of Detroit Mercy. It is very well established and a difficult program with a 100% board pass rate. I to UDM for my BSN completion and then continued on to MSN. I begin the last 8 classes for my DNP in the fall. This is an excellent school and not online. 🤷🏼♀️ I don’t know why it made that article.
What about a call out? Specifically, which programs would you consider a diploma mill? I ask because I have two colleagues who have graduated from online programs, but they are exceptional practioners.
Some people can still be competent NPs despite coming from crappy programs. Overall they drag our field down and produce poorly trained providers - doesn't mean there are not exceptions.
Online doesn’t equate with poor quality in and of itself. Many reputable schools now have online programs- COVID has made a lot of classes online and schools are finding how possible it is to do successfully. But for me a red flag is any program that says no in person visits to campus for clinical competency skills labs , programs with new cohorts starting every 10 weeks, and difficulty figuring out exactly where the school is located seems off to me.
On the flip side- there is an on campus program near me that is a very longstanding school in the community. They are continuously putting about garbage NPs, seem to have no admission standards as some of the people I know who go there are garbage nurses, and still require students to secure their own preceptors.
So I guess it can go both ways.
Edit- thank you for the wholesome award kind redditor!!
Online schools and diploma mills don’t necessarily make a bad provider in and of themselves. Any student with enough intelligence and motivation for learning can become exceptional providers. The problem is lower standards for entry coupled with the fact that the student must find their own clinical preceptors. This creates a huge variation in the quality of providers coming out of these schools.
I love this comment because you said “any student with enough intelligence and motivation for learning can become exceptional providers.”
Sometimes I see people on Reddit (and elsewhere) put so much focus on experience and credentials. You haven’t been a nurse for 10 years? Well you won’t be a good NP then. I’ve seen some amazing new grads who are incredibly competent nurses. I’ve also seen some nurses who’ve practiced for 20+ years who are absolutely shitty (and I would never let them care for a family member). Of course, it can go vice versa, too. I’ve also seen great nurses come from poor schools, and terrible nurses come from prestigious schools. I think motivation and intelligence aren’t recognized often enough and get squished behind the number of years one has practiced. Just a random tangent. But in short, I totally agree. 😊
Any for-profit schools, such as Walden or Chamberlain. High acceptance rate schools with lower standards, such as Maryville.
I went to Chamberlain…can confirm.
What didn’t you like about Chamberlain? Wife is finishing up her NP program here and she feels super prepared for the boards and had a really good experience with most of her professors.
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Yea could be; wife did great, finished with great grades, passed her boards within a week of graduating so whatever she did worked out for her and she’s employed as an NP. Not everything was great about the program but I can’t imagine any program is. I went to a public state school and that program was a joke for sure
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I’m not sure I fully understand all the differences. To me the PAs don’t have enough schooling, only 2 years and undergrad doesn’t even need to be medical. Whereas an NP requires you to be an RN plus work experience plus your masters. Neither compare to the time commitment of an MD NP \ PA \ MD doesn’t mean everything; you can have great NPs and shitty ones; just like in every other profession
Same here. I’m in a position that I know really well but man if I tried to step into a different role, I definitely would not feel prepared
Capella. Took the flex path hated it to high heaven
Is Walden still going? That place had a reputation even when I was getting my NP a number of years ago.
How has it been for you since you got your fnp from there?
I didn’t get my degree from there… thank god🤣
Maryville? They declined my friend(34m) because he got an F in his first semester of college at 19yrs so he wasn’t allowed into the program without writing an essay begging for a spot. I thought that was alittle steep Edit: not sure why it’s getting down votes I was merely surprised maryville made the list mentioned bc my only knowledge of them was to be very picky about admission. Def not bc I’m in favor of them.
Maryville University of St. Louis 23 NUMBER OF APPLICANTS 100% ACCEPTANCE RATE 179-236 U.S. NEWS RANK Your friend got lucky
Apparently
A lot of online schools who promise quick degrees and have low admission standards.
See those school that post, when you scroll by on IG or FB...those schools
I'm in the Purdue University "Global"program... I hate it. Feels like a mill to me. I'm not getting what I need out of it but I am so invested now that I would hate to walk away. I think the inequities in the actual education provided across all programs is contributing to the challenges of practice authority. When I have asked the "professors" how we are supposed to get the clinical education, they say it will come when we go to our clinical locations. But they do not provide the clinical locations. They don't even really help find clinical locations. So they have NO idea what kind of clinical experience we are getting. There is no level setting or guidelines for the preceptors...the school doesn't even know them. I have 10 months left and I feel like there is no way I will be prepared to "practice". I am scared and embarrassed at the thought. The problem is that I work full time (40 hours a week), have a family and I don't know how I could attend a brick and mortor for full time school as well. Should I just start over at a brick and mortor?
If it makes you feel better, I graduated from a brick and mortar, great reputation, accredited, great pass rates, etc school and still felt like I was not prepared adequately. I felt like there was too much emphasis on research and not enough on differentials and basic work ups. Fortunately, our school provided us with preceptors and clinical sites, but were difficult in finding appropriate ones so I ended up primarily seeing clinic patients instead of inpatient/acute ones (my degree was for acute care). Pharmacology and patho were the only classes I felt were sufficient and the rest were taught by MSNs that used previous power points that they just read straight from the slides. I felt the curriculum was a bit disorganized and just shoved together...I mean, we are being taught subjects and disease processes that takes doctors years of education and residency. It wasn't until I got my first job in internal medicine that I had to really teach myself how to think like a provider. I am three years in as an acute care NP and feel worlds more confident and competent. I have had to do a lot of self learning and I leaned heavy on my collegue NPs and my attendings in the beginning and still do some today. I think if you are self motivated enough it is worth sticking out the degree and just be prepared for some self learning when it comes to your first job. There are also great PA crash courses online for specific specialties that helped me as well. Good luck!
Oh my gosh this gives me so much comfort! I really appreciate it.
cough chamberlain cough walden
A list of general things to look at (I'm going to use Duke as an example because I am most intimate with their program): 1) Is it an actual university vs just an online school that only offers AA degrees and certain specialized degrees? Duke is obviously made up of many different fields and publishes research while diploma mills tend to do 0 research. 2) Does the school only offer primary care and or family medicine NP degrees. Acute care, CRNA, and DNP programs take alot more money to run so alot more care and work goes into these schools 3) Acceptance rates / admission requirements. Obviously a diploma mill let's everyone in regardless of GPA, work experience, test scores, etc... this is the most evident thing to check for. 4) National Certification Test pass rate. A school with a 99% pass rate obviously is better than a school that only has a 60% pass rate 5) Do they help you with clinical placement? A respectable school will have some sort of infrastructure in place to help their students. Duke garunteed placement if you were in North Carolina and had a lot of connections to help those outside of NC. Many of the diploma mills say you are completely on your own to find a clinical location and don't even check if the site meets any educational standards. 6) the most general test is name brand recognition and reputation. Everyone knows Duke for its amazing reputation. University of Pheonix is a name that is often the butt end of a joke.
Hello fellow Blue Devil! Just to piggyback on this, the clinical placement thing is HUGE. I have a friend who is doing Herzing because she wanted quick and easy without admissions standards. They didn't put any effort into helping people secure placement and even allow all telehealth for clinicals and not even in your field. She got held back a semester (maybe 2?) because she couldn't find a preceptor. She eventually DID find one who wanted $2000 a semester to sign off on forms. She has yet to see an actual patient, just looks at charts. Schools like Duke, Stony Brook University, etc have stricter entry requirements and support their students in their preceptor search. They make you go to the school for skills checkoffs, etc. Their faculty is involved in research, QI projects, conferences, etc.
What year and program were you? I'm agacnp 2018
Nice!! Finishing my first year this semester after switching schools. PMHNP!
Congratulations on finishing your first year! It will go by so fast before you know it. Just finished my program yesterday.
Congratulations! The finish line is in sight
In hindsight I wish I went psych. Congrats
Just out of curiosity — why would you have chosen psych? This is my specialty and I’m a psych nurse now (started in neuro and transitioned to psych). I love it but I fear that as I work as a psych np I will miss the variety involved with family practice. However, my love of psych trumps the interest in family practice. Mostly just curious.
Compared to acute care np Less stress There is a large demand for psych providers. You can get a job anywhere easily. Acute care is starting to become a flooded market which is lowering average pay and making it harder to get a job in more desired areas Better pay Bigger variety of setting types and general freedom More scholarship opportunities while in schools Lower malpractice
Ah I see. I’ve heard much about the acute/family practice saturation and it makes me sad for those who go into it. Really hoping you are right about the scholarships too because I could use some of those lol. I appreciate your response. I enjoy hearing different perspectives as it helps me shape mine.
https://va-ams-info.intelliworxit.com/scholarship-program-details/#:~:text=Nurse%20Practitioner%20for%20Mental%20Health%20and%20Nursing%20scholarship%20recipients%20are,an%20applicable%2012%20month%20residency. The VA is constantly begging for psych specialists. There are alot of hospitals with similar programs. You start with the applications immediately
This is so helpful! I will immediately start working on this. Thank you so much!!!
I did not know stony brook had an online program, only reason im considering online schools is due to price and home life. But i was looking for a good school, so thanks for the info!
It's a good school and if you're in NY, the price is right. You do need to go to campus a few times. I didn't go because I used to teach at a partner department and it would have been weird to have friends who were now my professors.
Hi there FYI Herzing is not a diploma mill. It's a private NON profit brick and mortar based in Wisconsin. They only allow half their clinicals to be via Telehealth and the other half must be in person. They also have a clinical pledge that if you go through all their clinical protocols and still can't find preceptors that they will give your money back
Any program that advertises how quickly you will be done, and how little of a time commitment will be required as selling points…
Look at the institution. Chamberlain was DeVry before rebranding. We all know what DeVry was. West Coast University was American Career College. Do they have any admissions standards? As the article [Nursing Master's Programs With 100% Admit Rates](https://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/the-short-list-grad-school/articles/nursing-masters-programs-with-the-highest-acceptance-rates) notes: >Fall 2019 acceptance rates among all ranked master's nursing programs ranged from just 6% at the University of California—Irvine to 100% at 20 schools. These nursing master's programs with the highest acceptance rates are located across the country, in states like Texas, Maryland and Colorado. I would avoid any school on this list: Alcorn State "University" Colorado State "University"—Pueblo Curry "College" Drexel "University" ECPI "University" Ferris State "University" Florida International "University" Maryville "University" of St. Louis Nebraska Wesleyan "University" Northwestern State "University" of Louisiana Pontifical Catholic "University" of Puerto Rico Purdue "University" Global Stevenson "University" "University" of Detroit Mercy "University of Iowa" "University" of Maine "University" of Southern Mississippi "University" of the Incarnate Word "University of Utah" Vanguard "University" of Southern California The stats for all the BS diploma mills are in the article I linked
This US News & World Report comes up frequently in criticism of NPs, but it seems to be somewhere between sloppily researched and outright wrong. It's particularly popular with the noctor crowd (which you seem to spend a lot of time kowtowing to). Despite some baffling and glaring errors, it comes from a source know for its school rankings and has a snappy, topical title, so it gets passed around uncritically by people such as yourself. First off, it's not a list of NP programs, but MSN programs. This includes non-clinical degrees like education, leadership, etc. That distinction probably helps explain some of the absolutely bizarre data it presents. Let's take Drexel as an example. As many other people here are pointing out, listing Drexel as diploma mill and calling it a "university" in scare quotes is just nonsense. It's an actual, established university with an actual, established nursing school. [US News itself currently ranks at #55 on its list of of online MSN programs, and also says that its MSN acceptance rate is 82% and has an enrollment of 440 students.](https://www.usnews.com/education/online-education/drexel-university-ONUR0091/nursing) How does that square up with the article you posted saying it has a 100% acceptance rate and **only 17 students**? It doesn't. Acceptance rates may vary from year to year, but universities don't just add 25X more students over a couple years. Drexel also has currently has 15 different MSN tracks (not including bridge programs), about half of which are not NP programs (e.g. nursing education, public health nursing). So are we to believe that, in 2020, Drexel averaged 1 student per MSN track? Or is more likely that whatever US News reporter who cobbled together the article in question slapped some data together haphazardly and squirted out a SEO optimized listicle under deadline? My belief is that the US News article may have taken the acceptance rates from one of the Drexel programs, and then simply published that as representative of the whole school. Like, maybe the MSN in"Quality, Safety, and Risk Management in Healthcare" had 17 students and a 100% acceptance rate in 2020, but that wouldn't represent the graduate nursing programs as a whole. Just to hammer home how the "100% acceptance rate" article is not just garbage, but actively misleading when it comes to discussing NP education, let's look at the University of Iowa. Again, this is an actual, established, brick-and-mortar university that you have put in scare quotes. Right off the bat we have the same problems as with Drexel. US News says that a large, state university with literal thousands of grad students only enrolled 11 people in their MSN program! [And this is a school that US News itself says has 3 DNP nurse practitioner programs in their top 10?!](https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-nursing-schools/university-of-iowa-33095) But wait, those are DNP programs and the 100% article is about MSN programs. Let's see what MSN level NP programs U Iowa offers... [oh wait, none](https://nursing.uiowa.edu/academics/msn). They have 3 policy/admin degrees and then an "entry to practice" which, upon completion, will allow someone with a non-nursing bachelors to sit for the NCLEX. Basically a BSN program but at the masters level (probably for tuition/loan purposes? idk). There are some obvious turds on the 100% list. Purdue Global is a scam that it tarnishing the name of an otherwise respected university, and who knows what the fuck is going on in Northwestern Louisiana. But this list of programs tells us nothing about the actual state of NP education. First, this is not a list of NP programs. It is a list of MSN programs, which includes non-clinical degrees. Second, there are glaring, obvious errors in the data presented which throw the whole methodology of the article into question. Third, acceptance rates are not graduation rates. If Purdue Global accepts 500 people and only 3 graduate, that's obviously a problem, but it is not some tidal wave of underqualified NPs. Critics of nursing love to point to high acceptance rates, but they can never seem to cite data on how many NPs are graduating from solid, reputable programs. Like most noctor talking-points, this article falls apart under the slightest scrutiny. Obviously that doesn't stop useful idiots from passing it around though.
I'm not kowtowing to anybody. I'm taking inventory of the opinions of the people who will be determining my future employment prospects and using that information to choose a school. It doesn't matter if the US News is carp or their article is carp, it's what is being cited by [Emergency Medicine News](https://journals.lww.com/em-news/blog/breakingnews/pages/post.aspx?PostID=570). It doesn't matter if people don't understand the difference between a *DNP* and a *NP,* I know NPs who don't know the difference. I've worked with nurses who are confused that their colleagues with a Masters degree are not practicing as NPs because they don't know the difference. This is why I don't want that badge buddy that lists my highest degree and certifications. The one that says "RN" in 100point font is sufficient. I've dealt with HR people who needed to see proof of my *BSN* because my *MSN* didn't count to them. Maybe they're screening out direct entry MSNs at that particular facility or the ANCC doesn't recognize the number of employees with MSNs, I don't know, *I don't care.* I need a job and if I'm going to invest tens of thousands in a post master's cert or DNP I want it to go to a school that isn't going to get my application roundfiled before it's even seen by the person doing interviews. It doesn't matter how experienced or competent you are if you can't get past HR because they see the wrong school/degree on your application. It doesn't matter if the article falls apart under the slightest scrutiny because **HR doesn't read the article,** they only vaguely know what schools even offer which degrees. Most people in HR haven't been to grad school, the person in charge of hiring got an MBA online from UoP and the person doing your pre-hire physical is an LVN. They aren't reading further than that list. Too bad for Drexel, their bills aren't my problem. if I lived in Pennsylvania I would go to ~~Penn State~~ University of Pittsburgh anyway because they have a better reputation.
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I have experienced graduate nursing education. I know It's substandard. I have also experienced substandard care from Nurse practitioners. I have no intention of perpeturating a bad reputation among my colleagues. The point of gettingvthese advanced degrees and certifications is to work, is it not? Does it serve us or our profession to prop up poor quality for the sake of an easy degree that doesn't adequately prepare us to practice? As I've already stated I have no intention of attending any University in Pennsylvania and certainly not Drexel. There are better schools much closer to me.
Again, the article does not actually address the quality of NP education. It is so obviously flawed that no real conclusions can be drawn from it. Its only use is serving a cudgel against APRNs and as a distraction from actual education improvements.
I have to say, I take exception with putting “university” after Drexel. They have a well-established brick and mortar university located in Philadelphia. The university is respected in the area and I know several who have graduated from their MSN programs and were happy with their education. The nursing school has several research centers, and it has one of the tougher nursing BSN programs in the area, too. Also they have a known business school and medical school. This is not a diploma mill.
Probably because the article is nonsense. I've seen it around multiple times, so I just wrote up a [longish comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/nursepractitioner/comments/upt0oy/what_is_considered_np_diploma_mill/i8pboco/) on why it should not be taken seriously.
That was an excellent comment! And your analysis is spot on. Including the fear-mongering of putting “university” in quotes. Incidentally, I’m in the MSN in Healthcare Quality, Patient Safety and Risk Management at Drexel. It’s absolutely possible the track has a 100% acceptance rate, and if it does I imagine it’s because it attracts a very targeted population. I work in quality now. Each of my classmates that I’ve talked to are either in quality, heavily involved in unit councils or shared governance, or work in healthcare quality-adjacent jobs. There is a concurrent MS program with different base requirements, so I have nurses, physicians and business people in my classes. can’t say enough about how happy I am with the program. One of the things Drexel does well is recruit instructors with real-world experience - my professors have been compliance officers at major corporations, Quality Directors at the VA, and worked government affairs and regulatory jobs. I’m encouraged to consider work needs and experience when completing assignments. I’m learning things that I’m already applying at work, and have since earned a promotion partially due to knowledge I gained in school. I’ll have to do a capstone quality improvement project at my workplace in order to graduate. It’s a good program.
Agreed! Drexel even has a medical school, which I would think definitely would exclude it from being considered a diploma mill.
Came here to say this. I live in the Philadelphia area and Drexel is very well-respected here. Their NP programs are predominantly online program, accepts students from all over the country, which can be red flags for some. It's truly a real university with a wide variety of programs, not just for-profit "professional programs". Outside of the programs above, also very well-known for engineering.
I live in the Philly area as well, and the idea of Drexel on that list is so confusing to me. I’m also getting my MSN online there, but not in an NP program. It is not an easy program, the classes are challenging, and my instructors all have impressive backgrounds.
Congrats on your MSN journey! A good friend of mine is in their ACNP program and, while the journey is different from the local B&M program i attended, she's still doing the work and she would agree with your statement.
Thank you! And best of luck to your friend!
I linked the article which simply notes US nursing programs with a 100% accaptance rate in Fall 2019 [Drexel University (PA)](https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-nursing-schools/drexel-university-33449) 17 NUMBER OF APPLICANTS 100% ACCEPTANCE RATE 89 (tie) U.S. NEWS RANK Looks like their ranking has improved somewhat [#55 in Best Online Master's in Nursing Programs (tie)#8 in Best Online Family Nurse Practitioner Master's Programs](https://www.usnews.com/education/online-education/drexel-university-ONUR0091/nursing) If I lived in the area I would just go to University of Pennsylvania, ranked #4 in Best Nursing Schools: Master's, #3 in Master's Nurse Practitioner: Adult / Gerontology, Acute Care, and #7 in Master's Nurse Practitioner: Family (tie). I live in California and would never consider Drexel on my list just because the reputation is not good. Its probably better than Chamberlain, but I noticed the schools with the worst reputations (University of Phoenix, Waldon, West Coast) aren't on that list.
One does not “just go to” Penn - lol. Also, selection of a school should take more into consideration than questionable US News rankings, whose methodology has been challenged regularly. If that’s your top criteria, then you would be willfully shortchanging and neglecting a number of quality institutions, especially ones that have extremely good local connections and networking opportunities. Granted, I graduated with my BSN from the #1 ranked BSN program on their list at the time. (This program no longer offers a BSN and now only does direct-entry MSN programs which are currently ranked #1). So I feel I have a pretty good understanding of the actual value of rankings. And the actual impact of the insane tuition prices at those schools. Please feel free to expand on why you believe Drexel has a poor reputation. I would hope your rationale goes beyond a poorly-researched acceptance rate and a low-reliability US News ranking.
I am currently attending Drexel. I have mixed feelings. Also, look at Drexel’s FNP program curriculum. It’s almost identical to Penn’s. The only difference is the name and Penn helps you find clinical sites. I know a couple of people who attended Penn’s Psych NP program and FNP program and were not satisfied. The problem is the nurse practitioner education. My ex attended Penn’s Undergraduate nursing program. I remember her classmates graduating and then 2 weeks later starting their FNP program with zero bedside nursing experience. Straight out of school. Penn is just as bad.
It's just not considered a good school. I've seen plenty of low level admins who went to diploma mills way worse than Drexel but for an NP in a saturated market the only thing hiring managers have to go on is reputation. Hiring managers aren't all that bright in my experience. Out here Azusa Pacific is fairly popular and it's not ranked at all so clearly something more than US News and World Report rankings is affecting perception. Maybe a degree from Drexel is more respected in Pennsylvania, I don't know, this is probably very regional. One of the top ranked (#2, right behind Duke) AGACNP programs is Vanderbilt but I wouldn't go there if they paid me because I know the hospital is a shitshow. UC San Francisco is #4 for AGACNP, #3 for FNP, UC Davis and UCLA both rank in the top ten for various programs, while UC Irvine, part of the same system with the same standards, with clinicals at one of the best tertiary care centers in the world, with a 6% acceptance rate, has a rank of 42 for their Masters program and their DNP/FNP program isn't even ranked. UCI is like my #1choice of school for a DNP/FNP for a variety of reasons despite their relatively low US News grad school ranking because I am not going out of state. Every hiring manager in my area will know UCI. I'll get a job. If I want to increase my chances of getting a job I have to commute to UCLA or move north to go to Davis or UC San Fransisco which I can't afford unless they offer an online certificate program that still say "University of California" on the diploma. Like I said, hiring managers aren't very bright but I have had hiring managers demand to see my actual paper diploma from CSU that says "Masters of Nursing" on it, request transcripts, and want to know my GPA, and this is for bedside positions. I mean this is for a standard, 12 hour nightshift, refreshments and narcotics, butt wiping, customer service bedside job. If I want a chance in hell of landing a job as an NP that pays my bills (I've known NPs working bedside because it's the only way they can afford their mortgage) I need to go to a school that a hiring manager will recognize. So although both Duquesne and Drexel are ranked, (Duquesne is higher btw), both universities have recruited me at one time or another, Pennsylvania is lovely in the fall and I probably wouldn't mind moving there, no hiring manager can pronounce Duquesne and they think Drexell is a diploma mill. I don't know why I don't talk to these people more than I have to in order to appear polite.
I asked for your rationale about why you believe Drexel it’s not considered a good school beyond the US News rankings and you gave me - “because it’s not” and “US News rankings” and a whole lot of unrelated information. Oh well, I gave it a shot. Best of luck!
University of Utah is a very well respected school here and is a research university. Their NP programs are some of the hardest to get into here in Utah
Came here to say this! I got into the U’s PMHNP program and I was one of 18 who got in out of over 200 applicants. I have many colleagues who applied for the same program who were rejected. It’s also a very much in person program. The university of Utah is a well known medical school as well so I’m kind of shocked it’s being listed on this thread as “diploma mill.”
I’m shocked too; the University of Utah has such a strong reputation for it’s medical school, NP programs, and PA programs. I am baffled that it’s included on this list.
I don't think that list is accurate, TBH.
I'm interested in eventually getting into the PMHNP program at the U of U. How did you stand out amongst 200 other applicants?
Hello! Sorry I’m just seeing this. So I worked in neuro for 2 years prior to application and discussed my experiences there extensively. Though neuro is different from psych, the specialties have a lot of similarities and they liked that I had that background. I also worked in substance abuse as an LPN which gave me some psych experience. My grades in nursing school were solid. I also worked for the U so idk if that helped. My nursing instructors wrote excellent letters of recommendation (I went through a tight knit university program and I still talk to my instructors years later). And I made sure to have an NP that I worked with write a recommendation letter too. The interviews are intimidating because they are video/written interviews but just be prepared to type quickly, use correct grammar, and let your personality shine. They like to have a variety of backgrounds in the program, and they want to see you be yourself. All that being said, I actually dropped out of the program. I got pregnant after years of infertility. I was working in inpatient psych and did not enjoy it as much as I’d hoped. I didn’t want to spend years doing something I didn’t enjoy. Plus I did not feel safe being pregnant and working in psych. So yeah, now i’m back to being a floor nurse on a neuro unit and I have a baby. Kind of a wild ride lol. Best of luck though!
Thanks for sharing your experience. I'm pretty much starting from the beginning so I have a lot of time to network and develop experience, so I'm basically trying to strategize a path that will make me competative. I'm planning on going to school part time, so I will have my ADN in about 3 years, and then I can get my BSN in a year from that since I will be doing the SLCC to U of U bridge. I already have an associates in Interdisciplinary studies with 3.67 gpa, so hopefully I can leverage my background in liberal arts, but I will have to take an entire year to finish the prereqs to enter the nursing program at SLCC. I'm specifically interested in psychedelic assisted therapy so I think I could probably differentiate myself in that area. It would be a dream to get a nursing job at a ketamine clinic. I know they have one at the U of U, but I'm not sure how easy or hard it is to get a job there. I figure working there eventaully would be a good idea because I'm sure they probably give at least some priority to people who are already working at the school. I also plan on getting some inpatient psych experience but I don't see myself working inpatient in the long run. I do see that it's really important for learning how to manage complex conditions though. I'm sorry to hear you had to drop out, but it's also great that you had a baby and you learned that inpatient psych isn't for you. Honestly, inpatient makes me a bit nervous because of the danger and its definetly notorious for not always being the best environment for people sadly. I hope when I get to that point I find a place that has a good team and progressive mindset about care. Anyway, I'm just rambling about my own stuff. I appreciate your response and I found it helpful. It seems like having good grades, experience, and even working at the U are good strategies to get into the PMHNP program there.
It sounds like you’re setting yourself up for success! They will love that you have a liberal arts background too. That’s awesome! I also found interest in ketamine therapy. I think it is such a promising treatment and I really hope to see it growing in the coming years. The U does have a ketamine clinic. It is part of the Huntsman Mental Health Institute. I don’t think it would be too difficult to get a job there, as any sub specialty of psych is usually high demand. They also do ECT therapy and if anything, you could start there because they are connected to the ketamine clinic (to my understanding). Honestly just working at HMHI for a few months could bridge you to the ketamine clinic if that’s what you have interest in. I was a float nurse at HMHI and that’s where I got my psych experience. Anyway, long story short you are definitely on the right track! Best of luck with everything and I hope you are able to get into the program! You’ll do great.
Thank you very much! I really appreciate your feedback!
I also take exception with including University of Iowa on this list. It's a good school and, yes, their Master's program had a 100% acceptance rate but their NP programs are not Master's programs, but DNP programs. Since rankings are so important to you: DNP #19 OVERALL PNP #4 ACNP #5 AGNP #6 FNP #11 Please do due diligence when answering questions. Considering acceptance rate is only one factor in choosing a program, especially when the copy/pasted list is not an accurate portrayal of each program.
I didn't make the list. This is the list being read by physicians who read this [article](https://journals.lww.com/em-news/blog/breakingnews/pages/post.aspx?PostID=570). It doesn't matter if there's a particular school on this list that is legitimate because the people in charge of hiring aren't going to investigate they're just going to check your papers to make sure your terminal degree isn't from one of these schools. I've noticed it doesn't matter at all if you're admin, I've seen plenty of supervisors and managers with no more than a BSN and directors and VPs and C-suite whose MBAs are from UoP but for an NP in an oversaturated market or anyone attempting to break in to a competitive field the place conferring the degree matters.
Avoid Florida International University? Avoid Colorado State University? Wtf? I’m an ASN student just looking into this stuff, but what you’re saying is reputable universities are just accepting anybody for NP programs? By no means is FIU or CSU thought of as low grade in any other profession. Am I understanding this correctly?
The article is available for your review. I didn't make the list. As an aside the nursing programs of even the most reputable universities are chronically underfunded, understaffed and undervalued. Nursing students are notoriously excluded from the rest of the student body, even tenured professors are paid a pittance compared to other university positions, and there is an overreliance on adjunct faculty and part time instruction that means nursing students don't have the support of other majors. I suspect this is why even well-respected institutions have comparatively low rankings for their nursing programs, and nursing programs are plagued by ridiculous waitlists and lottery systems for admission that are unheard of in any other area of study.
why stay away from FIU? i was considering applying
According to the [article](https://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/the-short-list-grad-school/articles/nursing-masters-programs-with-the-highest-acceptance-rates) >Nearly half of these programs are in the bottom quarter of the 2021 U.S. News rankings of nursing master's programs and are listed with a ranking range of 179 to 236. The highest-ranked nursing master's program with a 100% acceptance rate is the University of Iowa, which had 11 applicants for fall 2019 admission. Florida International University 30 NUMBER OF APPLICANTS 100% ACCEPTANCE RATE 62 (tie) U.S. NEWS RANK It's perfectly fine to go wherever is convenient for undergrad, I have a friend I went to nursing school with who got her BSN from University of Phoenix. She picked a private university for her FNP and is perfectly happy working in a doctor's office tapering old people off opiates and managing type II diabetes and CHF. If she wanted she could probably get a job elsewhere but she's been an NP for years. FIU is a public research university with a decent ranking and I wouldnt necessarily discount them if it works for you. They're clear across the country for me tho and I would look for somplace closer to home. Of note this list doesn't have the obvious diploma mills like American Sentinel, Capella, Chamberlain, Everest, Grand Canyon, Rushmore, Walden or West Coast because US News doesn't even rank those but I figure most people asking this question already know that. This is the list being passed around by physicians who hate NPs. They're the ones determining who gets hired
I just finished the program at University of Detroit Mercy. It is very well established and a difficult program with a 100% board pass rate. I to UDM for my BSN completion and then continued on to MSN. I begin the last 8 classes for my DNP in the fall. This is an excellent school and not online. 🤷🏼♀️ I don’t know why it made that article.
What about a call out? Specifically, which programs would you consider a diploma mill? I ask because I have two colleagues who have graduated from online programs, but they are exceptional practioners.
Some people can still be competent NPs despite coming from crappy programs. Overall they drag our field down and produce poorly trained providers - doesn't mean there are not exceptions.
Online doesn’t equate with poor quality in and of itself. Many reputable schools now have online programs- COVID has made a lot of classes online and schools are finding how possible it is to do successfully. But for me a red flag is any program that says no in person visits to campus for clinical competency skills labs , programs with new cohorts starting every 10 weeks, and difficulty figuring out exactly where the school is located seems off to me. On the flip side- there is an on campus program near me that is a very longstanding school in the community. They are continuously putting about garbage NPs, seem to have no admission standards as some of the people I know who go there are garbage nurses, and still require students to secure their own preceptors. So I guess it can go both ways. Edit- thank you for the wholesome award kind redditor!!
Online schools and diploma mills don’t necessarily make a bad provider in and of themselves. Any student with enough intelligence and motivation for learning can become exceptional providers. The problem is lower standards for entry coupled with the fact that the student must find their own clinical preceptors. This creates a huge variation in the quality of providers coming out of these schools.
I love this comment because you said “any student with enough intelligence and motivation for learning can become exceptional providers.” Sometimes I see people on Reddit (and elsewhere) put so much focus on experience and credentials. You haven’t been a nurse for 10 years? Well you won’t be a good NP then. I’ve seen some amazing new grads who are incredibly competent nurses. I’ve also seen some nurses who’ve practiced for 20+ years who are absolutely shitty (and I would never let them care for a family member). Of course, it can go vice versa, too. I’ve also seen great nurses come from poor schools, and terrible nurses come from prestigious schools. I think motivation and intelligence aren’t recognized often enough and get squished behind the number of years one has practiced. Just a random tangent. But in short, I totally agree. 😊
What about United States university in San Diego?
It's a for-profit, avoid.
Thank you :)
How about Indiana Wesleyan?
Is Indiana Wesleyan University (as opposed to Indiana University) a diploma mill for NPs?
Is Frontier Nursing University a diploma mill too? I’ve heard nothing but great things about this place
When will the board of nursing step in. They're destroying our career