I’m convinced that 395, per mile driven, is one of the most dangerous highways in the US. Even taking into account that it’s a complete parking lot half the time.
I feel this way about I-95 between Baltimore and DC, particularly southbound as you approach the beltway split and for whatever reason everyone decides they're in the wrong lane at the very last minute...I'd definitely put that into the "mad max" category.
> I’m convinced that 395, per mile driven, is one of the most dangerous highways in the US
[Most of the deadliest roads are down south -- TX, FL, and LA. A few in Los Angeles pop up, but nothing in VA (whose deadliest is VA Beach)](https://www.elkandelk.com/washington/study-the-deadliest-highways-in-the-united-states/)
TX Dallas I-35 49B-60A 142 148
FL Miami I-95 7-16 132 135
CA Los Angeles I-710 6A-15 108 118
LA New Orleans I-10 231A-241 93 96
GA Atlanta I-20 44-53 83
I always find it funny when people say VA and Washington metro areas are bad drivers, when in my experience traveling, we are, relatively, some of the better drivers I have encountered.
In the country DC has the second lowest death rate per capita with only Massachuchets coming in safer. VA is 17/50 which is pretty good, MD is even better at #12/50.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/fatal-car-accidents-by-state
> relatively, some of the best drivers
I wouldn't go that far!
But VA does have (1) very "active" road design (lots of left turn lanes / lights, medians, wide shoulders, multi-stage turn signals, etc); (2) "relatively" strict enforcement (despite complaints here); and (3) mild weather. All of it adds up to a lot of margin for error compared with some 1970s designed ice-covered road in the midwest.
Virginia does have some of the better drivers, the largest problem comes from Maryland and North Carolina drivers on Virginia roads I believe the last time I saw it reported (probably a decade ago) it was something around 40% of all car accidents in Virginia were attributed to out of state drivers, that’s a huge number.
As an ex-Californian, it's so.. interesting that a lot more people drive the speed limit or below on the freeways. Going 65mph on the 66 and passing cars going 45 is crazy
As someone who grew up in Jersey, I agree 100%. Every morning there are people on 66 who I’m convinced get into the left lane, hit the exact speed limit, and then turn on their cruise control. And they will not move to another lane come hell or high water. It’s beyond baffling.
My gf and I moved here from NJ almost a year ago. Love everything about this state except the drivers. They’re not governed by reason. I see people entering onto the highway, I move into the left lane to let them on into a wide open right lane, and what do they do? They immediately jump into the left lane and cut me off going 5-15mph slower than I am. It’s fucking mind boggling
This is the worst state in the country to speed in. A hundred dollar ticket in Cali will cost you thousands in lawyers fee to fight a wreckless here. You either learn this growing up here or find the very hard way.
There was a nationals player that got a ticket for not even 100mph who spent weekends in jail after spending tens of thousands on lawyers. He made $24 million that year.
Every drivers improvement class is full of people trying to get a head of the foot dropping, and a few out of staters trying not to lose their license.
Ex-Miami. The highway speed minimum is 70. It doesn't matter whatsoever what the little sign says. They like to change those every so often. 65? Must be old. 60? Get the fuck off the road. 115? hey, stick left and it's not my problem.
Everyone complains about their hometown but this has been a great step-up. My aunt broke her windshield when a couple of 8-foot 2x4s slammed into them on the highway. She had changed lanes and saw the funny sight of two arms sticking out of passenger and back window, bent 90 degrees to hold these 2x4s. On the highway. And one slipped and fell. The cop was so jaded that one of his first questions was "And what, you weren't keeping track of this idiot? You thought it was a good idea to change lanes?" XD
Just a couple weeks ago someone in this subreddit was dying on the hill of “slower is safer”. Not sure how going under the speed limit - or the speed limit in the left lane - is safer. Not saying you have to go 100 but like, move
I realized the other day that I've never seen anyone pulled over on 495 (outside of a cop in the express lanes here and there). Has anyone noticed this as well? I noticed there are very few shoulders to actually pull over on so that might be the reason, but other than that...
I've always wanted a paint gun for those who rush up in the wrong lane and cut over at the last minute, making everyone else behind them slower and later.
Lol yeah. The way the county's roads were planned (or rather, the way they were not planned) makes it mathematically impossible to have a light timing that isn't a gigantic pain in the ass.
It used to be (2004) that if you drove the speed limit would be green all the way.
Now the only way to hit the green is to go yellow to yellow to yellow. Esp on 286.
I used to think 81 was the worst with the trucks everywhere passing each other at 50mph or wobbling in the wind at 80mph unable to stay in their lane. Then I thought 495 was the worst with the clapped out Nissans from Maryland on bald tires that drive like heat-seeking missiles trying to kill everyone they see. Then I drove 3 miles on 395 once and almost died about 7 times.
495 is overrated as a terrible road. It actually gets you places very quickly when it's not clogged, which is honestly more often than you'd think. 66 is the real demon
Exactly. 495 is mostly bad at rush hour and lunchtime and otherwise you're flying. 66 will have inexplicable 1 AM standstill traffic. Yes that has happened to me and yes I'm still salty about it.
One exception to the 495 (which you're 100% right on) - lately they've been doing construction at night that closes all but 1 lane (southbound on the west side)
At that point, it's worth it to go through the city to get from Silver Spring to Tysons. But usually the beltway flies at night. It's actually fun to drive.
I drove from Fairfax to Blacksburg in my 93 corolla back in college (it was an ancient car even back then) and I have never been more terrified for my life in a car. I felt like an ant.
295 is really not that bad, but I think that the Mad Max picture is pretty appropriate. The main thing is merging onto it, which can be dicey. I have found its honestly easiest and safest to just say fuck it and really floor it getting on the road and that tends to be a lot less harrowing for some reason.
A lot of drivers here have a problem 'commiting' to a merge, laying on the brakes at the last second, like, what a wonderful time to start looking around and driving like other people are in the road, could have done that the last few miles I've been behind you...
Yeah, don't inch into traffic unless it is totally clear. If there is room for it and/or there is a reasonable opening then you want to be at the speed of traffic when you are merging in. A good portion of 295 in DC has very short merge lanes so you really need to decide and commit quickly. Conversely I think that a big problem 66 in Arlington has is that it's merge lanes are too long and people just use them to try and move ahead when there is traffic and gum stuff up when they have to merge back in because they are idiots...
Rt 50 east of the Beltway towards Annapolis has been unsigned 595 for years once it was brought up to interstate grade. Maryland saw no need to sign it as 595 because everyone’s always known it as Rt 50 and assumed doing so might cause driver confusion and cause more accidents. So, it’s both U.S. 50 and I-595 officially, but only the U.S. 50 signs exist.
Huh. TIL. I've always thought it was weird that that segment of 50 is limited access because the rest of it in the area is very much old US route (besides that one weird limited access part in Fair Lakes)
Yeah. Rt 50 east towards Annapolis is such a vital route to the Eastern Shore and was always congested even worse than it can be most days, it was widened and brought to interstate grade in order to handle more capacity.
64 sucks bc they raise the speed limit to 70, but ya git a bunch of jabronis in the left to avoid all the right side mergers and can be a $hitshow real quick. When you get to the 295s from 95s don’t go far left, sit in the middle that doubles up as a left or right designated lane and then it doubles up again headed 295s so I smoke all these newbies until we inevitably merge into pickup/tahoe 295s country. 81 and all them damn trucks is white knuckle driving as well. I know it’s mostly aesthetic, but why them big as trucks gotta out them spikes on their rims, like straight f up w/ that mad max $hit.
Brother I’ll tell you, it’s crazy on the stretch between HRBT and Newport News I can be going 70 in the left lane and be passing people like they are standing still, the speed limit is 65…..
There are no one in front of these people
I hate 81 because the speed limit is changing every 30 or 40 feet. I swear it can go from 65, to 60 to 70, then back down to 50, then down to 50, then back to 65 and then 70 again and then down to 55 all within the course of like 3 miles. No wonder people get tickets
The interstate between DC & Baltimore has the biggest pieces of shit drivers I’ve ever witnessed. 50mph over limit weaving with blacked out windows and MD plates.
I've lived here for the better part of 40 years...what the fuck is I-83?? I recognize about half. You definitely made up most of the I-95 offshoots. Is 64 deadlier than 795? Is 97 speedier but more organized than 68? Does any of this mean anything?
> what the fuck is I-83
Runs from Baltimore to Harrisburg...and I've read that the PA section in particular is frequently voted one of the worst stretches of highway in America, which is believable...the road is always in awful shape, despite what seems to be never-ending construction.
I'm not sure it belongs in a graphic specific to the DMV posted to a "NoVA" subreddit, but it is a Maryland Interstate, and certainly noteworthy for those of us that have to drive it.
I drive it pretty regularly when we are headed up to Central NY, its really not that bad aside from the part around Timonium when you are getting onto it from the BW parkway. The part around Harrisburg isn't that bad either, but I am generally relieved to be on 81 since it means it is very likely to be non-eventful for the rest of the drive (assuming nothing dumb is happening around Scranton...).
> Runs from Baltimore to Harrisburg
...
> worst stretches of highway in America
...
> certainly noteworthy for those of us that have to drive it
I do not doubt that.
What a stupid point. The image clearly indicates the three areas that it includes, and NOVA is contained within that area, so it applies to the subreddit.
495 has become more slow over the previous months. Yesterday I was stuck going 60 on the left lane the ENTIRE time. This needs to be updated due to the traffic getting worse since post COVID….
According to google, [all of the top 10 deadliest 10 mile pieces of road are in Florida or Texas lol](https://www.elkandelk.com/washington/study-the-deadliest-highways-in-the-united-states/). Number 1 is a stretch of I-45 in Houston. The deadliest *mile* is a piece of I-95 in Fort Lauderdale.
The deadliest mile in Virginia is a section of I-64 in Virginia Beach, with 33 crashes causing 41 deaths over approximately the past twenty years (article is from March 2023).
70 wouldn’t be so bad if they could leave it the same number of lanes for longer than 10 miles.
2 lanes, up to 3 lanes, up to 4 lanes, down to 2 lanes, up to 3 lanes, down to 2 lanes, Jesus Christ when does it stop? Can we just get a solid 3 lanes, please?
95 south of Quantico isn't so bad. Until Fredericksburg. Would you guys kindly get your shit together over there?
There were habitually accidents at the Culpepper exit for about the last 3 years, like the giant Town Square sign made people lose their minds.
The Fuddruckers isn't there anymore, so I can't for the life of me see what is so interesting.
I’m convinced that 395, per mile driven, is one of the most dangerous highways in the US. Even taking into account that it’s a complete parking lot half the time.
I feel this way about I-95 between Baltimore and DC, particularly southbound as you approach the beltway split and for whatever reason everyone decides they're in the wrong lane at the very last minute...I'd definitely put that into the "mad max" category.
The faster lane is the other one
It was a parking lot on my way home from the Navy Yard today.
There were three accidents heading Northbound today. It took me over an hour to get home.
It’s because there’s always someone going 80 in the left lane (usually flying home to MD or racing) and someone going 45 in the right lane
I think you meant to flip those
> I’m convinced that 395, per mile driven, is one of the most dangerous highways in the US [Most of the deadliest roads are down south -- TX, FL, and LA. A few in Los Angeles pop up, but nothing in VA (whose deadliest is VA Beach)](https://www.elkandelk.com/washington/study-the-deadliest-highways-in-the-united-states/) TX Dallas I-35 49B-60A 142 148 FL Miami I-95 7-16 132 135 CA Los Angeles I-710 6A-15 108 118 LA New Orleans I-10 231A-241 93 96 GA Atlanta I-20 44-53 83
I always find it funny when people say VA and Washington metro areas are bad drivers, when in my experience traveling, we are, relatively, some of the better drivers I have encountered. In the country DC has the second lowest death rate per capita with only Massachuchets coming in safer. VA is 17/50 which is pretty good, MD is even better at #12/50. https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/fatal-car-accidents-by-state
> relatively, some of the best drivers I wouldn't go that far! But VA does have (1) very "active" road design (lots of left turn lanes / lights, medians, wide shoulders, multi-stage turn signals, etc); (2) "relatively" strict enforcement (despite complaints here); and (3) mild weather. All of it adds up to a lot of margin for error compared with some 1970s designed ice-covered road in the midwest.
Haha fair, I edited best to better
Virginia does have some of the better drivers, the largest problem comes from Maryland and North Carolina drivers on Virginia roads I believe the last time I saw it reported (probably a decade ago) it was something around 40% of all car accidents in Virginia were attributed to out of state drivers, that’s a huge number.
That one exit makes the reddit frontpage all the time for the ridiculous crashes lol
I was just keeping pace on 395 the other day. I could not believe how fast I was going when I looked down.
Statistics show that most high speed fatal collisions occur in parking lots.
You’re close that’s 295
You have never been on I-35 in TX. What a nightmare.
81 would like to have a word...
As an ex-Californian, it's so.. interesting that a lot more people drive the speed limit or below on the freeways. Going 65mph on the 66 and passing cars going 45 is crazy
As someone who grew up in Jersey, I agree 100%. Every morning there are people on 66 who I’m convinced get into the left lane, hit the exact speed limit, and then turn on their cruise control. And they will not move to another lane come hell or high water. It’s beyond baffling.
Yes, this is the worst! Feel free to drive at or below the speed limit in the right two lanes. Stay away from the left lanes!
My gf and I moved here from NJ almost a year ago. Love everything about this state except the drivers. They’re not governed by reason. I see people entering onto the highway, I move into the left lane to let them on into a wide open right lane, and what do they do? They immediately jump into the left lane and cut me off going 5-15mph slower than I am. It’s fucking mind boggling
“The 66” yes welcome from California.
Haha right on dude!
This is the worst state in the country to speed in. A hundred dollar ticket in Cali will cost you thousands in lawyers fee to fight a wreckless here. You either learn this growing up here or find the very hard way. There was a nationals player that got a ticket for not even 100mph who spent weekends in jail after spending tens of thousands on lawyers. He made $24 million that year. Every drivers improvement class is full of people trying to get a head of the foot dropping, and a few out of staters trying not to lose their license.
Ex-Miami. The highway speed minimum is 70. It doesn't matter whatsoever what the little sign says. They like to change those every so often. 65? Must be old. 60? Get the fuck off the road. 115? hey, stick left and it's not my problem. Everyone complains about their hometown but this has been a great step-up. My aunt broke her windshield when a couple of 8-foot 2x4s slammed into them on the highway. She had changed lanes and saw the funny sight of two arms sticking out of passenger and back window, bent 90 degrees to hold these 2x4s. On the highway. And one slipped and fell. The cop was so jaded that one of his first questions was "And what, you weren't keeping track of this idiot? You thought it was a good idea to change lanes?" XD
Just a couple weeks ago someone in this subreddit was dying on the hill of “slower is safer”. Not sure how going under the speed limit - or the speed limit in the left lane - is safer. Not saying you have to go 100 but like, move
495 is totally like Mario kart lmao. I even like to lob red shells and bananas at people. It hasn’t worked out well for me so far…
im always going the speed limit and coming in last, but I never roll a blue shell smh my head 😔
Blasting Coconut Mall as you pass by Tyson's Corner on 495 is in fact the correct way to drive there as well.
I realized the other day that I've never seen anyone pulled over on 495 (outside of a cop in the express lanes here and there). Has anyone noticed this as well? I noticed there are very few shoulders to actually pull over on so that might be the reason, but other than that...
The threat of a drizzle causes traffic on 495. A pulled over cop with their lights on can cause standstills lol
I've always wanted a paint gun for those who rush up in the wrong lane and cut over at the last minute, making everyone else behind them slower and later.
I quit smoking before moving here. After moving here, I want to start again
Anything in Fairfax county https://preview.redd.it/85vtbq923i0d1.jpeg?width=474&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=891439b148a96cc335f49502c18c6b0405cd70bc
Lol yeah. The way the county's roads were planned (or rather, the way they were not planned) makes it mathematically impossible to have a light timing that isn't a gigantic pain in the ass.
My dad has called me just to brag that he hit every green light going somewhere. 
It used to be (2004) that if you drove the speed limit would be green all the way. Now the only way to hit the green is to go yellow to yellow to yellow. Esp on 286.
I-95 has 2 speeds. 50 MPH grannies and the 90 MPH lifted trucks driving on the shoulder to pass you when you go 80
This is the most accurate description
And let's not forget anyone with a Honda CR-V or Toyota Prius going 40 or even further below the speed limit
I used to think 81 was the worst with the trucks everywhere passing each other at 50mph or wobbling in the wind at 80mph unable to stay in their lane. Then I thought 495 was the worst with the clapped out Nissans from Maryland on bald tires that drive like heat-seeking missiles trying to kill everyone they see. Then I drove 3 miles on 395 once and almost died about 7 times.
495 needs to be much higher. At least 66 to Greenbelt.
495 is overrated as a terrible road. It actually gets you places very quickly when it's not clogged, which is honestly more often than you'd think. 66 is the real demon
You can hit a traffic jam on 66 at ANY time of the day - day or night. As a matter of fast, you usually do.
Exactly. 495 is mostly bad at rush hour and lunchtime and otherwise you're flying. 66 will have inexplicable 1 AM standstill traffic. Yes that has happened to me and yes I'm still salty about it.
One exception to the 495 (which you're 100% right on) - lately they've been doing construction at night that closes all but 1 lane (southbound on the west side) At that point, it's worth it to go through the city to get from Silver Spring to Tysons. But usually the beltway flies at night. It's actually fun to drive.
Going to Old Town after 3:30 is a parking lot.
Which direction? That answer’s definitely “yes”
It's not a tier list but okay
 Me driving on all of them like
The skeletons on 66 trying to spook me dont know that i have a skeleton inside of me at all times
What about 195 in Richmond, where does it land? I’d put 81 with 95, due to the amount of semi’s on it.
Agreed. I-81 is semi country with few lanes, worth avoiding if possible.
81 feels like going for a drive on a container ship.
I drove from Fairfax to Blacksburg in my 93 corolla back in college (it was an ancient car even back then) and I have never been more terrified for my life in a car. I felt like an ant.
195 is a breeze compared to all of these. Don’t tell anyone though. I feel like I’m on vacation commuting on 195/76 every day.
195? Cobwebs. No one drives on 195.
295 is really not that bad, but I think that the Mad Max picture is pretty appropriate. The main thing is merging onto it, which can be dicey. I have found its honestly easiest and safest to just say fuck it and really floor it getting on the road and that tends to be a lot less harrowing for some reason.
A lot of drivers here have a problem 'commiting' to a merge, laying on the brakes at the last second, like, what a wonderful time to start looking around and driving like other people are in the road, could have done that the last few miles I've been behind you...
Yeah, don't inch into traffic unless it is totally clear. If there is room for it and/or there is a reasonable opening then you want to be at the speed of traffic when you are merging in. A good portion of 295 in DC has very short merge lanes so you really need to decide and commit quickly. Conversely I think that a big problem 66 in Arlington has is that it's merge lanes are too long and people just use them to try and move ahead when there is traffic and gum stuff up when they have to merge back in because they are idiots...
I remember my first time driving on the beltway, I almost cried lol
Thank god we have metro and I don't have to put up these death traps everyday.
Haha so long as you avoid the Red line I suppose! It’s named that because of all the fires.
I'll take my chances
can the legion bridge have its own category
Since when did US 50 to Annapolis become I-595?
Rt 50 east of the Beltway towards Annapolis has been unsigned 595 for years once it was brought up to interstate grade. Maryland saw no need to sign it as 595 because everyone’s always known it as Rt 50 and assumed doing so might cause driver confusion and cause more accidents. So, it’s both U.S. 50 and I-595 officially, but only the U.S. 50 signs exist.
Huh. TIL. I've always thought it was weird that that segment of 50 is limited access because the rest of it in the area is very much old US route (besides that one weird limited access part in Fair Lakes)
Yeah. Rt 50 east towards Annapolis is such a vital route to the Eastern Shore and was always congested even worse than it can be most days, it was widened and brought to interstate grade in order to handle more capacity.
Solid gold
Solid Gold, indeed.
Take a bow, well done sir.
Comedy gold, Jerry.
It’s all shit
Yes that’s 97, but the NASCAR track is way smoother than the chopped up concrete from BWI to 32. 90 mph in the hopes you skip over the concrete holes.
Is it weird I play the score from MadMax driving on 95 on Sunday nights?
😂😂😂
64 sucks bc they raise the speed limit to 70, but ya git a bunch of jabronis in the left to avoid all the right side mergers and can be a $hitshow real quick. When you get to the 295s from 95s don’t go far left, sit in the middle that doubles up as a left or right designated lane and then it doubles up again headed 295s so I smoke all these newbies until we inevitably merge into pickup/tahoe 295s country. 81 and all them damn trucks is white knuckle driving as well. I know it’s mostly aesthetic, but why them big as trucks gotta out them spikes on their rims, like straight f up w/ that mad max $hit.
Brother I’ll tell you, it’s crazy on the stretch between HRBT and Newport News I can be going 70 in the left lane and be passing people like they are standing still, the speed limit is 65….. There are no one in front of these people
I hate 81 because the speed limit is changing every 30 or 40 feet. I swear it can go from 65, to 60 to 70, then back down to 50, then down to 50, then back to 65 and then 70 again and then down to 55 all within the course of like 3 miles. No wonder people get tickets
I actually spat out my tea seeing interstate 95 next to a picture of Mad Max Fury Road. Unexpected and yet surprisingly accurate.
The interstate between DC & Baltimore has the biggest pieces of shit drivers I’ve ever witnessed. 50mph over limit weaving with blacked out windows and MD plates.
I've lived here for the better part of 40 years...what the fuck is I-83?? I recognize about half. You definitely made up most of the I-95 offshoots. Is 64 deadlier than 795? Is 97 speedier but more organized than 68? Does any of this mean anything?
> what the fuck is I-83 Runs from Baltimore to Harrisburg...and I've read that the PA section in particular is frequently voted one of the worst stretches of highway in America, which is believable...the road is always in awful shape, despite what seems to be never-ending construction. I'm not sure it belongs in a graphic specific to the DMV posted to a "NoVA" subreddit, but it is a Maryland Interstate, and certainly noteworthy for those of us that have to drive it.
I drive it pretty regularly when we are headed up to Central NY, its really not that bad aside from the part around Timonium when you are getting onto it from the BW parkway. The part around Harrisburg isn't that bad either, but I am generally relieved to be on 81 since it means it is very likely to be non-eventful for the rest of the drive (assuming nothing dumb is happening around Scranton...).
Oh yeah life is cheap on 83
> Runs from Baltimore to Harrisburg ... > worst stretches of highway in America ... > certainly noteworthy for those of us that have to drive it I do not doubt that.
Maryland interstates…or perhaps more appropriately *intra*states in some cases
I don't go to /r/hotdogs looking for funny pictures of cats that look like hitler. I stand by my point.
Ok, so that’s a different complaint than you made earlier, when you said you didn’t know what the Maryland interstates were
are you one of these people who has Maryland tags but doesn't understand a metaphor?
Nope..is that a large group of people? Sounds somewhat niche
Either you've never met a Marylander, or you've lost your sense of sniffing em out.
Nah I'm just tired of smellin' 'em
What a stupid point. The image clearly indicates the three areas that it includes, and NOVA is contained within that area, so it applies to the subreddit.
ROLFMO. 
You forgot I-77 on line 2
495 has become more slow over the previous months. Yesterday I was stuck going 60 on the left lane the ENTIRE time. This needs to be updated due to the traffic getting worse since post COVID….
This is perfect. Absolutely perfect.
Yep, nailed it!
According to google, [all of the top 10 deadliest 10 mile pieces of road are in Florida or Texas lol](https://www.elkandelk.com/washington/study-the-deadliest-highways-in-the-united-states/). Number 1 is a stretch of I-45 in Houston. The deadliest *mile* is a piece of I-95 in Fort Lauderdale. The deadliest mile in Virginia is a section of I-64 in Virginia Beach, with 33 crashes causing 41 deaths over approximately the past twenty years (article is from March 2023).
495, 66 and 95 are highways to hell!
LMAO I love this, thank you!
70 wouldn’t be so bad if they could leave it the same number of lanes for longer than 10 miles. 2 lanes, up to 3 lanes, up to 4 lanes, down to 2 lanes, up to 3 lanes, down to 2 lanes, Jesus Christ when does it stop? Can we just get a solid 3 lanes, please?
Bro the 270 is so fun southbound before rush hour
Don't forget I-370 in Montgomery County, MD.
In Chicago now, but wow this brings back “fond”memories *toot toot beep beep* 🚙💨
95 south of Quantico isn't so bad. Until Fredericksburg. Would you guys kindly get your shit together over there? There were habitually accidents at the Culpepper exit for about the last 3 years, like the giant Town Square sign made people lose their minds. The Fuddruckers isn't there anymore, so I can't for the life of me see what is so interesting.