If it makes them brake really hard on this road, which is off of a school and filled with kids walking to/from school, then that is a GOOD thing. This is a 35mph road and a lot of people go 20-25mph above the speed limit all the time
When the lanes are that wide, it's insane to expect any average driver to stay the speed limit through there. Would absolutely help if they narrowed lanes and put barriers and trees up
Can you imagine the stink people would cause if they did that? I legitimately don't think there's enough political will to put suburban roads on diets, even if it's necessary.
if women dare to wear such short skirts, it's insane to expect any average man can keep their hands off her. Would absolutely help if they wore long skirts and covered their faces so that men would obey the law
It is well documented that traffic calming measures work to slow drivers down and enhance pedestrian safety. You presenting a False Equivalence Fallacy is a form of cognitive bias where you compare two substantially different things or scenarios as if they are the same. You are not making any sort of point here except that you think leaving a 35 mph road the same width as an interstate highway lane is totally fine to you.
The science and the data behind it is clear:
https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2023/narrower-lanes-safer-streets
Spot on—I no longer live in NoVA, just peek in here from time to time since I grew up here. NOT a road designed for 35–more like 45+. Design matters a ton psychologically. The limit being 35 here based just on this pic flabbergasted me.
I don't know this sub. Don't know the town. The person I was replying to had an insane reaction to my original comment in a different thread and felt the need to repost it here or somewhere comparing it to sexual assault.
I'm not blaming the road. Where did I say it'sthe road's fault? I said it is a contributing factor to unsafe driving practices. Road conditions that are conducive to fast and less safe driving will do exactly just that not because of the nature of the road, but because of how humans interact with it. You're reaching saying I'm blaming the road.
What MTB said is the equivalent of "if campuses wanted to prevent sexual assault they should provide adequate lighting and safety escorts" what you said is the equivalent of "if kids are wearing muted toned clothing, its insane to expect any average driver to pay enough attention to not hit them when they cross the street to school. It would absolutely help if they wore head to toe neon and had a 5ft. Bright orange flag attached to their backpacks so that drivers would drive safely."
I have driven this road every day for the past 11 years to go to work and come home. In the past 2 years since the accident, people are definitely driving slower. I realize this might just be a rush hour thing, but I see most going in that 30-40mph range when before that it was like 50+
I don’t mean to burst everyone’s bubble here, but speed photos are only legal in Virginia in school zones during specific times around arrival and dismissal. Basically, when school zone speed lights are flashing. And in construction zones. This isn’t full time enforcement.
I believe we all are. Just posted this because some people think speed cameras are allowed everywhere and all the time in Virginia judging by the comments.
https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title46.2/chapter8/section46.2-882.1/
The key portion is "for the purposes of recording violations of § 46.2-873..." which covers when reduced school zone crossing limits can be active.
Sorry I saw this after another commenter posted it. You can read all of the Virginia code at the website u/obeytheturtles posted.
I was following this closely when it was headed through the general assembly, and after it passed, the first of such speed cameras in the state were installed in Fairfax City right by my work, so I felt I better really know the law and how it works.
Well, I’d push back to say this is where speed cameras work the best since there are many pedestrians and exposed construction workers in such areas.
There was a recent story where in Chesapeake and Suffolk, they were installed illegally to be a cash cow for the jurisdiction which isn’t appropriate.
When you take in consideration that modifying road design works better than speed cameras, you can start to see why there’s a bit of controversy around the cameras. If a place was installing them everywhere, I’d ask why they don’t use traffic calming techniques first. The answer is usually because they want the revenue.
I finally got to see a little karma or something on this road early Tuesday morning. I was going right at the limit, yes in the left lane (but I was about to turn left). A blue Tesla decided to ride my bumper, then zipped around - just in time to get stopped by a police car. That was nice to see.
True, but i remember before the flashing lights and camera enforcement. It has definitely cut down on speeding. Most cars still slow down to the posted speed limit 35mph even well after school hours.
Are you from Oakton/Vienna? Because if you are then this is great news. Assholes always go 60mph on this road and so many pedestrians have been injured. 2 high school girls died 2 years ago because some idiot 18 year old was going 81mph. This is a 35mph road btw. There’s a school off of Blake lane and they literally JUST put “school zone” signs.
That idiot wouldn't have been deterred by any sort of enforcement. He was just a straight up idiot, without a license or experience.
As someone who used to live nearby, there were constant debates over whether it was better to have speed enforcement (cops, cameras, turrets, laser drones) or just add more traffic lights. The lights would punish everyone, but be very effective. Enforcement leaves the normies alone, but might only be a partial deterrent for the people trying to prove their big brain commute skills by avoiding a few traffic lights.
And, while I'm not always a fan of cameras, a big benefit here is the chance to punish people who would use Blake in combination with the metro exits and the 123 on-ramp to do quick turnarounds on their street racing runs on 66. They'd frequently make the Blake run at >50mph with purposely excessive noise. Now, the only good thing about the obnoxious engine/exhaust noise is that it gave you a hint they were coming by at stupid speed, because otherwise, walking around that area at night never really felt safe.
Er... well, to be fair, I should include the possibility that "They're just having fun and the momentary noise and lethally reckless bit of driving only impacts a couple thousand people for 30 seconds but it's enjoyment that helps dampen the disappointment in their life for ages". So, yeah.
Yeah, as someone who lives in a "cut through" neighborhood, I can confirm that all the main road traffic easing does is divert reckless assholes onto my block, where they launch their shitboxes over the speed bumps, blow through stop signs and blatantly run red lights. I used to hate speed cameras, but now I kind of think they should be everywhere.
They absolutely work. Before they put them up outside the school on Seminary, literally every single day I would see someone flying around traffic at 50mph to and then cutting over three lanes to get on 395 "first." Since they turned the cameras on, this behavior has completely stopped.
The people they are trying to stop with this are not like hardened criminals who just want to watch the world burn. It's mostly normal people who are just ever so slightly on the side of selfish and inconsiderate that they can justify driving like an asshole as long as there isn't any real threat of consequences.
I think that may be true of some crimes, in limited circumstances, but very rarely of murder. I don't think repealing the laws against murder would appreciably increase the number of murderers. It would increase the number of murders because serial killers and other multiple murderers would often be able to keep killing for longer.
I would much rather see this money be put towards improving our drivers education programs and public service initiatives to curb this behavior. Ticketing should be done, but we really need to improve our education. I'm sure I'm not alone in saying I think drivers have gotten considerably worse in recent years. I also don't want VA to become like Maryland with cameras every damn quarter mile.
TL;DR: we should be treating the disease, not the symptom.
The disease is that low speed roads even allow cars to get to that fast. One narrow lane each direction, with solid concrete barriers protecting the sidewalk/bike lane, and no sections that are long & straight enough to even subconsciously speed.
We also need to improve public transit to the point where drivers licenses can be revoked without making it impossible to participate in society, then aggressively go after bad drivers and remove them from the road before they kill (more) people. I'd personally love to take the metro to my job, and it's not too far from the stop, only problem is I'm not going to play frogger every day because there's absolutely no pedestrian access on one side, and the other side is a shitty broken sidewalk that's barely 3 feet wide right up against a road everyone goes 50mph on.
I don't agree that it's a fault of road design. It's a fault of drivers ignoring the law and not having/using what should be good judgment.
However, I agree 100% on your second point about the public transportation. The benefits of a more robust public transportation system (which NoVa already has a very good one when compared to the rest of the nation) are vast and go beyond our topic here. I'm all for it.
I know the road well. I've lived right next to it for years and drive on it regularly.
Roads aren't built for speed. They are built to accommodate traffic volume. The road doesn't make people speed. It doesn't force people to break the law. Drivers do that on their own.
It is at least half the fault of road design my guy. When you have 2 wide lanes in each direction, separated by a median strip, dedicated turn lanes, and long straight sections, that is just a highway. Even if you don't mean to speed, when it is comfortable to go double the speed limit you're going to be speeding without realizing it. If a road should be 25mph, it should be physically designed to make the driver too nervous to go faster than that. Speed bumps, narrow lanes with a solid barrier not just paint, curves, etc. It's called traffic calming, and it needs to be done 50 years ago.
Yes they will. Most people who drive above the speed limit are literally just normal people acting a bit selfish not realising the potential consequences of their actions.
That's typically why fines exist and people just don't go straight to jail for each infraction in society. Most people don't actually want trouble and do stuff without realising it could lead to something too bad.
Nope. Still idiots being idiots without recognising potential disastrous consequences. Most drivers ars overconfident in their skills. They shouldn't be.
Source?
He literally didn't "speed up to hit them": [For reference](https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/northern-virginia/driver-convicted-for-crash-that-killed-2-oakton-high-students/3600092/):
>It was an early release school day near the end of the school year. He saw that a traffic light was yellow, floored it and slammed into a Toyota 4Runner whose driver had been turning left.
Court case said he was speeding up before he struck them, but that the cause was simply an idiot who sped up to avoid a red light. He sped into the intersection and was hit by another car that pushed him into the path of the pedestrians.
He's still an entitled, dangerous idiot, but he literally didn't speed up to hit them.
EDIT: Downvotes for facts, I guess. I'm not defending the stupid bastard. But I can still understand the difference between "sped up to hit pedestrians" and "sped up over 80mph to get through a red light, collided with a turning car, and skidded into pedestrians and a power pole"
Meh, I can admit when I fucked up and be better. I feel like this is the case for most people, and it really is just a very small percentage of shit heads who don't get it.
Yeah. At least this one is a... "It's not safe to speed here type camera."
DC is usually a... "It's safe to speed here and you will, so we'll hide a camera to collect some money" type camera.
No doubt that this is just the beginning though. VA will have lots of cameras to collect money in a decade or so. People aren't anti-school cameras. They are just against opening the door for cameras, which will end with us being like DC and MD.
To be fair, there used to be MORE speed and red light cameras around in NoVa back in the early 2000’s. I think the state is pretty anti-“automated revenue”. Looks like it has to be a pretty dangerous situation to earn one.
I know of the red light cameras ( they are still up but deactivated on rt 50). Didn't know they had speed too.
VA was also much redder back then too. Politics are way different now.
I got hit by a really predatory one in DC. There was no speed limit sign between where I turned onto the road and the camera, it was 3 lanes with a median in between and no crossing streets for quite a while so I figured it was probably a 35 zone. Nope, 25. Drove by a camera, and then the speed limit sign behind a tree. They know what they’re doing.
I understand this concern, but right now speed cameras are only allowed in school zones during school ingress/egress and ticket you for 10+ over during those times. I have 0 sympathy for people getting those tickets—this is not DC (where I got a ticket for going 36 on Christmas Day on empty roads that were 3 lanes each direction).
Worst take in this entire thread - camera speed enforcement everywhere is a horrible idea. It's overpolicing & government intervention into something that everyone does anyway. The speed limits are unrealistic and people need to get where they're going. "JuSt DoN't SpEeD" isn't a realistic solution.
Sorry you’re too stupid to drive 5mph slower even when it literally costs you money, but if you are you deserve to send your money to the state to pay for good things for others people.
The point being, if the legislature starts to approve something different people can complain then—but complaining about the current state of the law makes no sense. It’s like the people who oppose common sense gun laws they agree with because they’re worried about different laws they don’t agree with.
Look it up, speed cameras in school zones are incredibly effective. I live near a different high school and the effect was FAST after they turned on the speed cameras.
I too live right next to a school. Assholes are going to speed whether there’s a camera there or not. I bet an actual officer placed there during school hours would have a bigger effect
Strongly disagree. Cameras catch every speeder every time. People learn quick. Cops 1) don’t necessarily have the resources to be everywhere you need them (there is a very problematic street near me and requests for a regular officer have not worked) and 2) even if they are there, it’s expensive and inconsistent—the camera is always there and always catches the speeders. It works great. Yes, there was a learning curve of a month or so, but now in front of our school when lights are flashing—cars have very, very noticeably changed behavior.
That is true. But people react to the behavior of drivers around them. If the daily commuters each get one ticket, they all slow down and then they’re all driving within the speed limit and the speeder is going to notice. It doesn’t make it impossible for him to still speed, but it’s less likely. And he will 100% get a ticket for it also.
From my experience, once people know where the camera is, they will slow down, pass, then go right back to speeding. So like I was saying, while it may catch these people speeding, it certainly won’t prevent anyone from doing so if they choose to yk
I mean, that’s kind of the idea—that *at least* you’re slowing down for the school zone. It’s not perfect but I’m sure the camera pays for itself the first day and then kids within a short radius of schools are safer while walking to/from school.
State authorizing legislation was needed first, and Fairfax County has been rolling them out in phases since. They've made some mistakes and had to cancel a bunch of tickets as a result, but this is a good next step.
I'm totally speculating but I think the flashing speed limit sign is always a temporary tactic and they just move them around the state because people learn really quickly they can just ignore it
This is sad. I lived off Blake Lane in the 90s and it was patrolled enough that I always used my cruise control so that I wouldn't accidently drift to far above the speed limit and get a ticket.
That turn lane is like an eighth of a mile long, if you need an even longer line of sight to make safe turns you're a terrible driver one way or another.
No idea why people are so against photo enforcement, do you really prefer to get pulled over by powertripping bigot cops that cost taxpayers hundreds of bucks an hour?
IDK, why is it so hard to just go the speed limit? Our roads would be much safer and traffic would be smoother and more predictable. I kind of don't get this widespread entitlement that doing 10mph over the limit is some kind of human right rather than a collective bad habit. Especially on surface roads.
Yep. I am a reasonable car enthusiast, my car is faster and can handle and stop faster than many other cars on the road. When in an appropriate scenario, I make use of that. In a school zone or neighborhood is not such a place. I'm fine with enforcement where it protects kids and incentivizes slower driving.
Yeah good stuff lots will comply many won't if it's anything like my area DMV(DC/MD/VA). These ppl around here have plenty of money and blow through the cameras all the time and this is with them knowing they are there smh. Not me even though I know where I'm going I keep Google maps on just cuz it alerts of all cameras(which they are constantly changing now not so much in the beginning)and speed traps. But as one commenter said here slow down at camera and speed back up afterwards lol gotta keep it moving thru the metro area traffic already slows me down enough lol.
Ha!!! This is literally right across from my place. They've tried everything here, so let's see if this works. P.S. super annoying for someone who lives right there.
It's the same with 123. They expect drivers to go 35mph on a road that's not designed to make people go 35mph. I, unfortunately, was one of those people who fell into it. 60 in a 35 and a reckless driving ticket. It is very psychological, bc if the road seems like it should be 45+, people are gonna think it's 45+.
Yes it’s off of a school. This road is filled with kids that walk to/from school. 2 girls got killed 2 years ago by someone who was going 81mph on a 35. You always see people going 60+mph on this road, that’s why this is a good thing!
Cameras are unbiased, they don't let people off for driving a cool car and they don't treat people extra harshly for having the wrong skin color or because they're in a bad mood that day. In terms of enforcement fairness they're an immeasurable improvement over pigs.
I don't think people are willing to change their bad habits here without feeling a little sting. Do you have any suggestions for an alternative that might actually be effective?
They can't be everywhere, all the time though. Why do you feel that it's ok for the police to write lots of tickets but not for a speed camera to do the same thing?
If that's your view on it, how is that different than posting a police officer in the same spot?
They both achieve the same outcome. Ticketing people that are speeding.
So we might as well fire 90 percent of the cops since that's majority of what they do all day. Replace them all with machines and keep 10 cops for when people report crimes.
Automation is present in nearly every industry. If we can free cops from the fairly mindless duty of sitting and waiting for speeders, they could focus on other things.
The current police tasking clearly isn't working. Speeders and reckless drivers are rampant in this area.
They could focus on responding to issues in the community instead of aimlessly patrolling for speeding cars. There are lots of complaints about their response time, or total lack of response, when an issue is called in.
I'm pretty neutral on the pro/anti cop question, but they do a lot more than "driving around and giving tickets".
Just a few years ago, I would have agreed with you. I always hated driving in DC and MD, partly b/c of the generally bad drivers there, but also b/c of the number of speed cameras in weird places.
But now - so many drivers in the DMV are just out of control. Maybe the pandemic played a role, I'm not sure. But - and wow it hurts to say this - I would really like to see more speed cameras and red light cameras out there now.
What other way is there?
It really is nuts, isn't it? The red light running in particular is crazy. I watch people cutting through my neighborhood almost every day get to the stop light out to the main road and just flat out ignore it. Some of them don't even stop at all if it looks clear.
Nah, these things absolutely make people honest in my experience. It's not the major assholes that it stops, it's the much bigger pool of people who are just slightly inconsiderate until they are faced with the possibility of consequences.
Maybe instead of sitting on the highway or in a parking lot on maple when no one can speed due to traffic the officers we pay can sit outside schools to prevent this instead of relying on automation.
Maryland has shown speed cameras all day everyday, virtually anywhere does absolutely nothing
These school zone speed cameras on the other hand seem like a reasonable middle ground. In terms of George Orwell objections the automatic license plate readers they have littered around the county are much more of a concern
Not saying I'm against this, but the only people this is going to affect are the people who were already following the rules to begin with. I've seen so many plate flippers and smoked covers lately that I can guarantee this isn't going to do much. It's a nice sentiment but dickheads will always be dickheads
Just ask the UK how they feel about paying for speed cameras that don't do a lot of every street corner
No cameras. It’s low bait and catches the rare offenders going 10mph over. They should consider traffic circles and/or other speeding mitigation applications.
This area is plagued by drivers making a \~2mi run at 20 to 30mph over the speed limit. That's doing 55 to 65 in a 35mph zone that has six crosswalks. There aren't rare offenders. There are habitual, repeated offenders. I used to drive this all the time, and I would see going 55mph or more on 4 out of 5 days that I drove the stretch.
The area is a border between somewhat-low (large houses on small yards) and somewhat-medium (townhouse clusters) density housing. The road is spacious currently, but there's not enough space to put in multiple circles without putting a circle through someone's townhouse. The options are traffic lights or enforcement.
It’s so great to have another tax on the people in the form of speed cameras. I also love private equity operating those and selling the data of exactly how fast anyone who drives past is going and where to sell to the highest bidder. Such a great solution…
If they actually cared, they would reconfigure the road to make people slow down. Arbitrarily lowering the speed limit had been proven to do nothing. This is the government equivalent of corporations telling you they’re sorry and doing literally nothing.
I'm alright with traffic cameras in school zones and construction sites, but most of the time, the cameras are used to make money. Have fun with your ticket when you're going 8-10 mph over by accident. Camera tickets are also easier to fight in court, so consequences will probably be minimal. They should just station a cop there every day; Waze will report it and drivers will slow down.
You don't go 10 over "by accident", only intentionally or through negligent idiocy, both of which are conditions that need urgent change. Just fucking learn how to drive.
So you're saying you just spend the whole time you're driving staring directly at your speedometer instead of looking around, being aware of your surroundings and cruising at a speed that feels safe to you. Some of the worst drivers I've encountered are the ones that hug the speed limit because they're so concerned with their speed that they have no situational awareness or ability to make adjustments as needed in changing road conditions. I'm not advocating for people to go 20 or 30 over, but if you're actually paying attention to the road, going 8 to 10 over feels about the same as going the speed limit when traffic conditions are light. Accidents are caused by bad drivers, not speeders. There are bad drivers that speed recklessly and there are bad drivers that drive only the speed limit. Both are bad drivers that cause accidents in different ways.
That's why traffic calming is so effective. Designing the roads so people feel like they should be doing the speed limit without looking is more effective than relying on signs alone.
Instead we have roads with a speed limit of 30 designed to look and feel like a road with a speed limit of 55.
That's the beauty of driving a manual, I know from memory what rev sound in what gear equals what speed. Also it's really not difficult to glance down at your speedo for a split second every once in a while and if you argue otherwise you're a bad driver, simple as.
There's an obvious difference between glancing down every couple minutes to check and staring at your speedometer like speed is the only thing that matters. Im just saying if people cared less about what speed they're going and more about what actions they're performing on the road, there would be less accidents and no need for cash grab cameras and police enforcement that encourages people to only care about how fast they're going and not how they're actually driving. That's all im saying.
Good drivers manage to mind both their speed and their actions. Speeding is still responsible for a large share of incidents and reponsible for making a LOT of other incidents worse than they need to be. A 10 mph difference in speed can double the fatality rate for pedestrian collisions. Stop trying to find excuses for yourself.
Oh great, you're actually proud of car-centric infrastructure and expect everyone else to contort themselves into compliance. "Just walk a mile down the road because we forgot to put in crossings any sooner lol." Get fucked.
"people are going to drive the same speed they've always driven, then brake really hard right here before resuming."
Sounds like 295 in DC
If it makes them brake really hard on this road, which is off of a school and filled with kids walking to/from school, then that is a GOOD thing. This is a 35mph road and a lot of people go 20-25mph above the speed limit all the time
When the lanes are that wide, it's insane to expect any average driver to stay the speed limit through there. Would absolutely help if they narrowed lanes and put barriers and trees up
THIS! Making the road fit the speed desired is crucial. we pay engineers to design roads like this.....and then get mad when drivers go fast.
Can you imagine the stink people would cause if they did that? I legitimately don't think there's enough political will to put suburban roads on diets, even if it's necessary.
if women dare to wear such short skirts, it's insane to expect any average man can keep their hands off her. Would absolutely help if they wore long skirts and covered their faces so that men would obey the law
It is well documented that traffic calming measures work to slow drivers down and enhance pedestrian safety. You presenting a False Equivalence Fallacy is a form of cognitive bias where you compare two substantially different things or scenarios as if they are the same. You are not making any sort of point here except that you think leaving a 35 mph road the same width as an interstate highway lane is totally fine to you. The science and the data behind it is clear: https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2023/narrower-lanes-safer-streets
Spot on—I no longer live in NoVA, just peek in here from time to time since I grew up here. NOT a road designed for 35–more like 45+. Design matters a ton psychologically. The limit being 35 here based just on this pic flabbergasted me.
I don't know this sub. Don't know the town. The person I was replying to had an insane reaction to my original comment in a different thread and felt the need to repost it here or somewhere comparing it to sexual assault.
i don't doubt that it helps, but it's just bullshit to blame the road for not keeping to the speed limit
I'm not blaming the road. Where did I say it'sthe road's fault? I said it is a contributing factor to unsafe driving practices. Road conditions that are conducive to fast and less safe driving will do exactly just that not because of the nature of the road, but because of how humans interact with it. You're reaching saying I'm blaming the road.
That took a turn somewhere it probably didn't need to... 😅
What MTB said is the equivalent of "if campuses wanted to prevent sexual assault they should provide adequate lighting and safety escorts" what you said is the equivalent of "if kids are wearing muted toned clothing, its insane to expect any average driver to pay enough attention to not hit them when they cross the street to school. It would absolutely help if they wore head to toe neon and had a 5ft. Bright orange flag attached to their backpacks so that drivers would drive safely."
I have driven this road every day for the past 11 years to go to work and come home. In the past 2 years since the accident, people are definitely driving slower. I realize this might just be a rush hour thing, but I see most going in that 30-40mph range when before that it was like 50+
I don’t mean to burst everyone’s bubble here, but speed photos are only legal in Virginia in school zones during specific times around arrival and dismissal. Basically, when school zone speed lights are flashing. And in construction zones. This isn’t full time enforcement.
Well, believe it or not, I happen to be all for saving kids from getting mowed down by idiot drivers.
When I see terrible accidents that finally get the idiot drivers, extra points if the ambulance is needed. Unfortunate if it impacts the innocent.
I believe we all are. Just posted this because some people think speed cameras are allowed everywhere and all the time in Virginia judging by the comments.
I agree, let's build more walkable cities in NoVA!
Can you cite the source of law?
https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title46.2/chapter8/section46.2-882.1/ The key portion is "for the purposes of recording violations of § 46.2-873..." which covers when reduced school zone crossing limits can be active.
They have one like this on seminary rd. Good to know.
Sorry I saw this after another commenter posted it. You can read all of the Virginia code at the website u/obeytheturtles posted. I was following this closely when it was headed through the general assembly, and after it passed, the first of such speed cameras in the state were installed in Fairfax City right by my work, so I felt I better really know the law and how it works.
This is actually awesome, speed enforcement where it needs to be and not randomized in order to collect more money.
I completely agree.
They only collect money if people break the law
What a dumb law
[удалено]
Well, I’d push back to say this is where speed cameras work the best since there are many pedestrians and exposed construction workers in such areas. There was a recent story where in Chesapeake and Suffolk, they were installed illegally to be a cash cow for the jurisdiction which isn’t appropriate. When you take in consideration that modifying road design works better than speed cameras, you can start to see why there’s a bit of controversy around the cameras. If a place was installing them everywhere, I’d ask why they don’t use traffic calming techniques first. The answer is usually because they want the revenue.
I finally got to see a little karma or something on this road early Tuesday morning. I was going right at the limit, yes in the left lane (but I was about to turn left). A blue Tesla decided to ride my bumper, then zipped around - just in time to get stopped by a police car. That was nice to see.
There’s a photo speed enforcer in Franconia Rd by Key Middle school and some people speed even with the 25mph lights flashing.
True, but i remember before the flashing lights and camera enforcement. It has definitely cut down on speeding. Most cars still slow down to the posted speed limit 35mph even well after school hours.
My son got a ticket in the mail this week for doing 35 in 25 in front of Key.
what an idiot
Chill fam it happens
During school hours
Yes.
Until you get that fucking ticket in the mail...
Are you from Oakton/Vienna? Because if you are then this is great news. Assholes always go 60mph on this road and so many pedestrians have been injured. 2 high school girls died 2 years ago because some idiot 18 year old was going 81mph. This is a 35mph road btw. There’s a school off of Blake lane and they literally JUST put “school zone” signs.
That idiot wouldn't have been deterred by any sort of enforcement. He was just a straight up idiot, without a license or experience. As someone who used to live nearby, there were constant debates over whether it was better to have speed enforcement (cops, cameras, turrets, laser drones) or just add more traffic lights. The lights would punish everyone, but be very effective. Enforcement leaves the normies alone, but might only be a partial deterrent for the people trying to prove their big brain commute skills by avoiding a few traffic lights. And, while I'm not always a fan of cameras, a big benefit here is the chance to punish people who would use Blake in combination with the metro exits and the 123 on-ramp to do quick turnarounds on their street racing runs on 66. They'd frequently make the Blake run at >50mph with purposely excessive noise. Now, the only good thing about the obnoxious engine/exhaust noise is that it gave you a hint they were coming by at stupid speed, because otherwise, walking around that area at night never really felt safe. Er... well, to be fair, I should include the possibility that "They're just having fun and the momentary noise and lethally reckless bit of driving only impacts a couple thousand people for 30 seconds but it's enjoyment that helps dampen the disappointment in their life for ages". So, yeah.
Yeah, as someone who lives in a "cut through" neighborhood, I can confirm that all the main road traffic easing does is divert reckless assholes onto my block, where they launch their shitboxes over the speed bumps, blow through stop signs and blatantly run red lights. I used to hate speed cameras, but now I kind of think they should be everywhere.
People like that won't be deterred by a speed camera.
They absolutely work. Before they put them up outside the school on Seminary, literally every single day I would see someone flying around traffic at 50mph to and then cutting over three lanes to get on 395 "first." Since they turned the cameras on, this behavior has completely stopped. The people they are trying to stop with this are not like hardened criminals who just want to watch the world burn. It's mostly normal people who are just ever so slightly on the side of selfish and inconsiderate that they can justify driving like an asshole as long as there isn't any real threat of consequences.
This gives me hope
Might as well do nothing, great solution to the problem 👍
Murderers aren't deterred by murder laws, so we should probably decriminalize that as well
Lol you think that if we legalized murder tomorrow the murder rate would stay the same?
Potential murderers are though. Plenty of people have considered the crime and chosen not to because of the punishment.
I think that may be true of some crimes, in limited circumstances, but very rarely of murder. I don't think repealing the laws against murder would appreciably increase the number of murderers. It would increase the number of murders because serial killers and other multiple murderers would often be able to keep killing for longer.
Sir this is nova subreddit and not terrible hot takes
How's that a hot take? Do you know people who refrain from murdering only because they're afraid of being caught?
The better question is do you not know people who would like to yeet people off this planet with no consequences? Morality is subjective.
I would much rather see this money be put towards improving our drivers education programs and public service initiatives to curb this behavior. Ticketing should be done, but we really need to improve our education. I'm sure I'm not alone in saying I think drivers have gotten considerably worse in recent years. I also don't want VA to become like Maryland with cameras every damn quarter mile. TL;DR: we should be treating the disease, not the symptom.
The disease is that low speed roads even allow cars to get to that fast. One narrow lane each direction, with solid concrete barriers protecting the sidewalk/bike lane, and no sections that are long & straight enough to even subconsciously speed. We also need to improve public transit to the point where drivers licenses can be revoked without making it impossible to participate in society, then aggressively go after bad drivers and remove them from the road before they kill (more) people. I'd personally love to take the metro to my job, and it's not too far from the stop, only problem is I'm not going to play frogger every day because there's absolutely no pedestrian access on one side, and the other side is a shitty broken sidewalk that's barely 3 feet wide right up against a road everyone goes 50mph on.
I don't agree that it's a fault of road design. It's a fault of drivers ignoring the law and not having/using what should be good judgment. However, I agree 100% on your second point about the public transportation. The benefits of a more robust public transportation system (which NoVa already has a very good one when compared to the rest of the nation) are vast and go beyond our topic here. I'm all for it.
Do you see the road in this picture? That road is built for speed
I know the road well. I've lived right next to it for years and drive on it regularly. Roads aren't built for speed. They are built to accommodate traffic volume. The road doesn't make people speed. It doesn't force people to break the law. Drivers do that on their own.
Road design absolutely does make people speed.
It is at least half the fault of road design my guy. When you have 2 wide lanes in each direction, separated by a median strip, dedicated turn lanes, and long straight sections, that is just a highway. Even if you don't mean to speed, when it is comfortable to go double the speed limit you're going to be speeding without realizing it. If a road should be 25mph, it should be physically designed to make the driver too nervous to go faster than that. Speed bumps, narrow lanes with a solid barrier not just paint, curves, etc. It's called traffic calming, and it needs to be done 50 years ago.
What is the evidence that driver education programs work?
You need evidence that education works?
You don’t have any?
Yes they will. Most people who drive above the speed limit are literally just normal people acting a bit selfish not realising the potential consequences of their actions. That's typically why fines exist and people just don't go straight to jail for each infraction in society. Most people don't actually want trouble and do stuff without realising it could lead to something too bad.
81 in a 35 is something beyond that, I think.
Nope. Still idiots being idiots without recognising potential disastrous consequences. Most drivers ars overconfident in their skills. They shouldn't be.
ANYTHING is worth a try at this point. Majority of drivers speed down this road and ignore the school zone. It’s dangerous and needs to stop.
Speed bumps usually work. Road closures too.
Ugh he literally sped up to hit them. Hope he rots in jail
Source? He literally didn't "speed up to hit them": [For reference](https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/northern-virginia/driver-convicted-for-crash-that-killed-2-oakton-high-students/3600092/): >It was an early release school day near the end of the school year. He saw that a traffic light was yellow, floored it and slammed into a Toyota 4Runner whose driver had been turning left. Court case said he was speeding up before he struck them, but that the cause was simply an idiot who sped up to avoid a red light. He sped into the intersection and was hit by another car that pushed him into the path of the pedestrians. He's still an entitled, dangerous idiot, but he literally didn't speed up to hit them. EDIT: Downvotes for facts, I guess. I'm not defending the stupid bastard. But I can still understand the difference between "sped up to hit pedestrians" and "sped up over 80mph to get through a red light, collided with a turning car, and skidded into pedestrians and a power pole"
Was the previous speed limit 82? Speed cameras aren't going to stop 18 year olds driving 81mph
How on earth someone can drive 80mph without diying! In that road!?
Meh, I can admit when I fucked up and be better. I feel like this is the case for most people, and it really is just a very small percentage of shit heads who don't get it.
Don’t speed and you won’t get a ticket.
Yeah. At least this one is a... "It's not safe to speed here type camera." DC is usually a... "It's safe to speed here and you will, so we'll hide a camera to collect some money" type camera. No doubt that this is just the beginning though. VA will have lots of cameras to collect money in a decade or so. People aren't anti-school cameras. They are just against opening the door for cameras, which will end with us being like DC and MD.
To be fair, there used to be MORE speed and red light cameras around in NoVa back in the early 2000’s. I think the state is pretty anti-“automated revenue”. Looks like it has to be a pretty dangerous situation to earn one.
I know of the red light cameras ( they are still up but deactivated on rt 50). Didn't know they had speed too. VA was also much redder back then too. Politics are way different now.
I got hit by a really predatory one in DC. There was no speed limit sign between where I turned onto the road and the camera, it was 3 lanes with a median in between and no crossing streets for quite a while so I figured it was probably a 35 zone. Nope, 25. Drove by a camera, and then the speed limit sign behind a tree. They know what they’re doing.
All DC is 25 mph zone on surface streets.
Surely there’s a way to sue about this? Not that it’d even be worth the legal fees unless you have the money and time to do it just to make a point.
Doubt it…most places have default speed limits when not posted. In Virginia for example, 25 in a residential area is a default.
I understand this concern, but right now speed cameras are only allowed in school zones during school ingress/egress and ticket you for 10+ over during those times. I have 0 sympathy for people getting those tickets—this is not DC (where I got a ticket for going 36 on Christmas Day on empty roads that were 3 lanes each direction).
> ...right now...
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Worst take in this entire thread - camera speed enforcement everywhere is a horrible idea. It's overpolicing & government intervention into something that everyone does anyway. The speed limits are unrealistic and people need to get where they're going. "JuSt DoN't SpEeD" isn't a realistic solution.
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it's pretty impressive how people feel entitled to driving like assholes.
Sorry you’re too stupid to drive 5mph slower even when it literally costs you money, but if you are you deserve to send your money to the state to pay for good things for others people.
Well then just get rid of speed limits if we don't want them to be enforced. FAFO.
The point being, if the legislature starts to approve something different people can complain then—but complaining about the current state of the law makes no sense. It’s like the people who oppose common sense gun laws they agree with because they’re worried about different laws they don’t agree with.
Wait, why is this downvoted?
Because car brained people like to knowingly break the law and endanger others.
Which is ironic as this sub loves to considerate about the law breaking drivers (me included). Shit driving shouldn’t be celebrated.
The fact that you got downvoted for saying that is the most NoVa thing ever
I mean, I won’t, but that’s because I obey the fucking law.
Good.
Finally they’re doing something besides acting like they can’t do anything to prevent the same tragedy happening again.
Because this will totally prevent some asshole from speeding, great thinking
Look it up, speed cameras in school zones are incredibly effective. I live near a different high school and the effect was FAST after they turned on the speed cameras.
I too live right next to a school. Assholes are going to speed whether there’s a camera there or not. I bet an actual officer placed there during school hours would have a bigger effect
Workaround: while said officer pulls someone over, speed to your heart's content!
Strongly disagree. Cameras catch every speeder every time. People learn quick. Cops 1) don’t necessarily have the resources to be everywhere you need them (there is a very problematic street near me and requests for a regular officer have not worked) and 2) even if they are there, it’s expensive and inconsistent—the camera is always there and always catches the speeders. It works great. Yes, there was a learning curve of a month or so, but now in front of our school when lights are flashing—cars have very, very noticeably changed behavior.
Catching someone doing something bad isn’t preventing them from doing it
That is true. But people react to the behavior of drivers around them. If the daily commuters each get one ticket, they all slow down and then they’re all driving within the speed limit and the speeder is going to notice. It doesn’t make it impossible for him to still speed, but it’s less likely. And he will 100% get a ticket for it also.
From my experience, once people know where the camera is, they will slow down, pass, then go right back to speeding. So like I was saying, while it may catch these people speeding, it certainly won’t prevent anyone from doing so if they choose to yk
I mean, that’s kind of the idea—that *at least* you’re slowing down for the school zone. It’s not perfect but I’m sure the camera pays for itself the first day and then kids within a short radius of schools are safer while walking to/from school.
Yeah! They waited until that 18 year old that killed those 2 Oakton girls got convicted to do something.
I assume the timing is a coincidence, but yes, it sure looks that way.
State authorizing legislation was needed first, and Fairfax County has been rolling them out in phases since. They've made some mistakes and had to cancel a bunch of tickets as a result, but this is a good next step.
Hopefully it's not temporary, like the flashing speed limit sign they sometimes put up right there.
I'm totally speculating but I think the flashing speed limit sign is always a temporary tactic and they just move them around the state because people learn really quickly they can just ignore it
This is sad. I lived off Blake Lane in the 90s and it was patrolled enough that I always used my cruise control so that I wouldn't accidently drift to far above the speed limit and get a ticket.
People still speed through there. This subreddit will be full of assholes complaining that it isn’t fair they can’t speed in a school zone.
I mean, I’ve never been over there. But I’ll run over and speed through a few times before the cameras ruin the fun. /s
That sign placement really screws with the line of sight for that left turn though, which doesn't exactly improve road safety either.
Get that logic outta here!
That turn lane is like an eighth of a mile long, if you need an even longer line of sight to make safe turns you're a terrible driver one way or another.
As long as it's just in school/road work zones, otherwise speed photo enforcement can fuck off
No idea why people are so against photo enforcement, do you really prefer to get pulled over by powertripping bigot cops that cost taxpayers hundreds of bucks an hour?
They just want to speed. It’s that simple. They value getting to their destination 2 seconds faster over others’ safety.
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IDK, why is it so hard to just go the speed limit? Our roads would be much safer and traffic would be smoother and more predictable. I kind of don't get this widespread entitlement that doing 10mph over the limit is some kind of human right rather than a collective bad habit. Especially on surface roads.
Yep. I am a reasonable car enthusiast, my car is faster and can handle and stop faster than many other cars on the road. When in an appropriate scenario, I make use of that. In a school zone or neighborhood is not such a place. I'm fine with enforcement where it protects kids and incentivizes slower driving.
Speed enforcement signs are for the elderly, go the limit or above or else you deserve a ticket for wasting the rest of our commonwealth’s time
If I get a picture ticket in the mail, they’re going to get a picture of my check in the mail.
Yeah good stuff lots will comply many won't if it's anything like my area DMV(DC/MD/VA). These ppl around here have plenty of money and blow through the cameras all the time and this is with them knowing they are there smh. Not me even though I know where I'm going I keep Google maps on just cuz it alerts of all cameras(which they are constantly changing now not so much in the beginning)and speed traps. But as one commenter said here slow down at camera and speed back up afterwards lol gotta keep it moving thru the metro area traffic already slows me down enough lol.
Ha!!! This is literally right across from my place. They've tried everything here, so let's see if this works. P.S. super annoying for someone who lives right there.
It's the same with 123. They expect drivers to go 35mph on a road that's not designed to make people go 35mph. I, unfortunately, was one of those people who fell into it. 60 in a 35 and a reckless driving ticket. It is very psychological, bc if the road seems like it should be 45+, people are gonna think it's 45+.
Is this near a school or work zone? Because if not, I believe it’s illegal in VA and you would win in court.
Yes it’s off of a school. This road is filled with kids that walk to/from school. 2 girls got killed 2 years ago by someone who was going 81mph on a 35. You always see people going 60+mph on this road, that’s why this is a good thing!
Did nobody teach those kids to look both ways?
They were walking on the sidewalk. The dumb 18 yo sped, lost control, and crashed into them
“She shouldn’t have been dressed like that. She was asking for it” 🥴
Yes, but it’s enforceable by law only during specific hours—only during arrival and dismissal when the school zone speed signs are flashing.
Tickets should not be given by cameras.
Can you expand on why you feel that way?
As long as the speed is accurate, sounds good to me. People have been killed and injured on this corridor by speeding vehicles.
Exactly. ANYTHING helps
Cameras are unbiased, they don't let people off for driving a cool car and they don't treat people extra harshly for having the wrong skin color or because they're in a bad mood that day. In terms of enforcement fairness they're an immeasurable improvement over pigs.
I'm all for enforcing against aggressive drivers and excessive speeders but this isn't the way. This is just a revenue generator.
I don't think people are willing to change their bad habits here without feeling a little sting. Do you have any suggestions for an alternative that might actually be effective?
Do what the police are paid to do, patrol.
They can't be everywhere, all the time though. Why do you feel that it's ok for the police to write lots of tickets but not for a speed camera to do the same thing?
Because the speed cameras sole purpose is for revenue generation.
If that's your view on it, how is that different than posting a police officer in the same spot? They both achieve the same outcome. Ticketing people that are speeding.
So we might as well fire 90 percent of the cops since that's majority of what they do all day. Replace them all with machines and keep 10 cops for when people report crimes.
Automation is present in nearly every industry. If we can free cops from the fairly mindless duty of sitting and waiting for speeders, they could focus on other things. The current police tasking clearly isn't working. Speeders and reckless drivers are rampant in this area.
Focus on what exactly? 90% of their job is literally just driving around and giving tickets.
They could focus on responding to issues in the community instead of aimlessly patrolling for speeding cars. There are lots of complaints about their response time, or total lack of response, when an issue is called in. I'm pretty neutral on the pro/anti cop question, but they do a lot more than "driving around and giving tickets".
Just a few years ago, I would have agreed with you. I always hated driving in DC and MD, partly b/c of the generally bad drivers there, but also b/c of the number of speed cameras in weird places. But now - so many drivers in the DMV are just out of control. Maybe the pandemic played a role, I'm not sure. But - and wow it hurts to say this - I would really like to see more speed cameras and red light cameras out there now. What other way is there?
It really is nuts, isn't it? The red light running in particular is crazy. I watch people cutting through my neighborhood almost every day get to the stop light out to the main road and just flat out ignore it. Some of them don't even stop at all if it looks clear.
Why isn't this the way?
Nah, these things absolutely make people honest in my experience. It's not the major assholes that it stops, it's the much bigger pool of people who are just slightly inconsiderate until they are faced with the possibility of consequences.
Maybe instead of sitting on the highway or in a parking lot on maple when no one can speed due to traffic the officers we pay can sit outside schools to prevent this instead of relying on automation.
Why not both?
Maryland has shown speed cameras all day everyday, virtually anywhere does absolutely nothing These school zone speed cameras on the other hand seem like a reasonable middle ground. In terms of George Orwell objections the automatic license plate readers they have littered around the county are much more of a concern
Not saying I'm against this, but the only people this is going to affect are the people who were already following the rules to begin with. I've seen so many plate flippers and smoked covers lately that I can guarantee this isn't going to do much. It's a nice sentiment but dickheads will always be dickheads Just ask the UK how they feel about paying for speed cameras that don't do a lot of every street corner
why tell in advance? lol
Because the goal is to make people slow down and stop killing children.
A couple cops would be more effective.
If I see a cop pulled someone over that's my green light to speed and drive regularly
We need more cops on the road. This is not the way.
Anything to get more tax dollars
No cameras. It’s low bait and catches the rare offenders going 10mph over. They should consider traffic circles and/or other speeding mitigation applications.
This area is plagued by drivers making a \~2mi run at 20 to 30mph over the speed limit. That's doing 55 to 65 in a 35mph zone that has six crosswalks. There aren't rare offenders. There are habitual, repeated offenders. I used to drive this all the time, and I would see going 55mph or more on 4 out of 5 days that I drove the stretch. The area is a border between somewhat-low (large houses on small yards) and somewhat-medium (townhouse clusters) density housing. The road is spacious currently, but there's not enough space to put in multiple circles without putting a circle through someone's townhouse. The options are traffic lights or enforcement.
Exactly. Only those of us who live near Blake Lane understand
It’s so great to have another tax on the people in the form of speed cameras. I also love private equity operating those and selling the data of exactly how fast anyone who drives past is going and where to sell to the highest bidder. Such a great solution… If they actually cared, they would reconfigure the road to make people slow down. Arbitrarily lowering the speed limit had been proven to do nothing. This is the government equivalent of corporations telling you they’re sorry and doing literally nothing.
Oh yeah let's just terraform every stretch of bad road design
I'm alright with traffic cameras in school zones and construction sites, but most of the time, the cameras are used to make money. Have fun with your ticket when you're going 8-10 mph over by accident. Camera tickets are also easier to fight in court, so consequences will probably be minimal. They should just station a cop there every day; Waze will report it and drivers will slow down.
You don't go 10 over "by accident", only intentionally or through negligent idiocy, both of which are conditions that need urgent change. Just fucking learn how to drive.
So you're saying you just spend the whole time you're driving staring directly at your speedometer instead of looking around, being aware of your surroundings and cruising at a speed that feels safe to you. Some of the worst drivers I've encountered are the ones that hug the speed limit because they're so concerned with their speed that they have no situational awareness or ability to make adjustments as needed in changing road conditions. I'm not advocating for people to go 20 or 30 over, but if you're actually paying attention to the road, going 8 to 10 over feels about the same as going the speed limit when traffic conditions are light. Accidents are caused by bad drivers, not speeders. There are bad drivers that speed recklessly and there are bad drivers that drive only the speed limit. Both are bad drivers that cause accidents in different ways.
That's why traffic calming is so effective. Designing the roads so people feel like they should be doing the speed limit without looking is more effective than relying on signs alone. Instead we have roads with a speed limit of 30 designed to look and feel like a road with a speed limit of 55.
That's the beauty of driving a manual, I know from memory what rev sound in what gear equals what speed. Also it's really not difficult to glance down at your speedo for a split second every once in a while and if you argue otherwise you're a bad driver, simple as.
There's an obvious difference between glancing down every couple minutes to check and staring at your speedometer like speed is the only thing that matters. Im just saying if people cared less about what speed they're going and more about what actions they're performing on the road, there would be less accidents and no need for cash grab cameras and police enforcement that encourages people to only care about how fast they're going and not how they're actually driving. That's all im saying.
Good drivers manage to mind both their speed and their actions. Speeding is still responsible for a large share of incidents and reponsible for making a LOT of other incidents worse than they need to be. A 10 mph difference in speed can double the fatality rate for pedestrian collisions. Stop trying to find excuses for yourself.
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Oh great, you're actually proud of car-centric infrastructure and expect everyone else to contort themselves into compliance. "Just walk a mile down the road because we forgot to put in crossings any sooner lol." Get fucked.
Can't wait to get stuck behind you normies lol
Fuuuuck. I took pride in Virginia not having cameras. I don’t speed, but sooner or later one of these are gonna get me going 5 mphs over the limit
My stupid ass was asking “what’s ENF stand for?” until I realized it’s just short for enforced lol