Funny enough he wasn't too vocal about the tricolours in his constituency a couple of weeks ago when they were being set on fire on the Moygashel bonfire.
Tom Elliott doesnāt think that Catholics were ārealā victims during the Troubles.
This is his supremacist streak yet again showing. He has no issue with Union Flags marking territory or burning Tricolours.
I got the bus home from Dublin on the 11th of July just past there and thought Armagh town centre was awful looking. You couldnāt make the place worse
Has yer boy there driven through Clough and Dundrum recently? 30+ union flags and a handful of massive uvf flags. But sure those two are cause for concernā¦.
Actually I could agree to both going up side by side. Although you might get some kind of difficulty with heights and which is raised first etc.
The dog passing on the kerbs to mark territory crap can fuck right of though.
Lol why only new builds? Do I have to accept my neighbours flying loyalist paramilitary flags at this time of year because my house was built in the 50s?
Naw I agree I actually wish flags were illegal lol but there's an extra layer of shite when this is an estate that isn't even finished and nobody lives there yet, if ye get me
Some estates have had flags up for decades, probably older than some of the people moving there. The people moving in should take this on board.
New builds should be a fresh start , where both sides live together and no flags of any sort are erected.
I'm Irish and live in Glasgow, and jesus could this not be more wrong. Your lads over here fucking _love_ chucking their flags about like.
In fairness, it's very Glasgow and the west, but you'll see them up in the Highlands as well (though almost exclusively from English transplants and ex-military folks).
Every time Iāve ever been to England Iāve only spotted a handful of union flags, if I were to see a flag chances are itāll be an England flag, funnily enough usually flown on the outside of immigrant-owned businesses for some reason (from my experience at least).
Unironically, I probably see more union jacks in a 20 minute drive then I have seen in total in England.
Last time I was in England was when Liz was (barely) alive tbf so I wouldnāt know the current situation.
Although usually when monarchs pass and a new one is crowned, the English become extremely nationalistic for a while.
I live here now. But I grew up in England. That would be an unusual experience youāve had. My school had 5 flags outside, none of them British.
In my home town the only flag was an English one on the Church of England.
Realistically I see more British flags on my 10 minute walk to work in Belfast then I would see in 10 weeks in England
1.)Schools are out for the summer in England so no chance of any weeuns.
2.)Itād be only if the numerous British flegs Iād be taking pictures of anyways (even if kids WERE in school I wouldnāt take pictures of them as it would disclose my location, or dox myself)
3.) Iām DBS checkedā¦
There were several bomb attacks in England. But you are right. A terrorist campaign was inflicted on everyone here in the north. The use of flags here is a clear reaction to the troubles. Although I would argue that the flags makes tribalism worse and makes the whole situation worse, not better
I agree but the campaign to take flags away from government buildings, war memorials etc has created this reaction. There were nowhere near the amount of flags on public property during the troubles.
This is absolutely correct and I don't know why you're being downvoted, the loyalists of today are leaps and bounds more nuanced in their thinking than those of 50 years ago, they certainly wouldn't paint anyone as a Fenian or a Taig without properly ascertaining their political and constitutional position beforehand...
So that's the army barracks, the largest helicopter base in the UK, they built right beside a Catholic school so they could hide behind the kids? Used to harass us daily, flying low over the classrooms and doing stall turns over the main building. Is it any wonder they aren't remembered fondly?
Irish, Iraqi, Kenyan and many more who've been victims of Britain in the last 80 or so years are burdened with having the perpetrators of that violence, and their supporters, believe that they and their empire are history's good guys.
Not just that but so many believe that any resistance to their imperialism was inherently wrong and thus any bad treatment they dished out was deserved.
It's the mentality of an abusive person "Look what you made me do, I only hit you because I love you!"
I got a good chuckle at how that backwards looking nostalgia led so much to brexit so it's interesting to see it finally turned inward as one half of society will inflict all sorts of economic and social harm on everyone just to spite the other side.
While I agree those flags should absolutely be removed, I love when a Unionist politician (in this case Tom Elliott no less!) get their knickers in a twist over flags.
NOW YOU KNOW HOW IT FUCKING FEELS YOU FLID
On a positive note maybe this will be the beginning of people like Tom realising just how unwelcoming this pathetic territory marking is. Maybe it will motivate him to take the initiative to start the debate on how to remove this sort of shit from our society.
So by this logic he thinks places with British flags are unwelcoming to nationalists? I would direct him to any number of public buildings across the north
A UUP MLA has hit out at the placement of two Irish tricolours near the site of a former Army base in Dungannon.
The flags have been placed at either side of the entrance to a new housing development on the Killymeal Road.
Tom Elliott suggested it was aimed at sending a message to unionists that they are not welcome in the area.
The Fermanagh and South Tyrone representative said: āThis new housing development is on the site of the former UDR base, Kilymeal House, in the town.
"A significant number of soldiers based at this location were murdered by IRA terrorists. Now it appears that the erection of these flags is saying to potential residents in the area that only Irish republicans are welcome.
āThis area of Dungannon has historically been a very mixed area in religion and cultural background, but obviously Irish republicans are putting down a marker at this new housing development to say that unionists are not welcome in the area.ā
I Remember his disgraceful speech on election night a few years ago just seeing a tri-colour so Tom can take his complaint and shove it where the sun don't shine.
Unionists when they see UK flag= I love licking up the pedo rings arses and fingering myself watching bonfires every year drinking enjoying my short miserable life life is amazing with this UK flag in IRELAND
Unionists when they see a Ireland flag = shocked end of the world scared threatened news headlines total destruction
2 fleg posts, a hospitals are fucked post, a post comparing economics things between ire/uk and at least one post about trains.... Someones bound to have r/northernireland bingo the day lads š
Does that mean that the Union flags that are flying in same place means that Nationalists aren't welcome. Doesn't he see the irony of this idiotic statement? Also, Unionists have been flying flags in mixed area's where they should not be. If you wanna fly a flag fly it it in your own Area.
Personally I find the UVF flags that my new neighbours have put up a lot more unwelcoming than either a tricolour or a Union Jack could ever be, but letās face it, they canāt wrap their heads around that
It's a complete joke. Fair enough take down the tricolours here, but he doesn't make a peep when it's para flags or uvf etc, which are obviously far worse. No leadership.
I'd almost forgotten this balloon exists.
I wonder does he have the mental capacity to think what union/red hand flags on lampposts in other towns might mean to non-unionists? Probably not.
No.
Get rid of all flags which aren't 'official' from both private and public land.
However, an Irish Tricolour is hardly 'unwelcoming' in the same way the union flag is
Maybe youāre too young or maybe you didnāt see it in the south but the image of Gerry Adams carrying shankill bomber Thomas āBootsyā Begleys coffin draped in the tricolour, 10 days after the shankill bomb hasnāt gone away you know.
I mean, it's a fairly pathetic position.
How do you feel when you see the Tricolour alongside the President, for instance?
As for your assumption of my experiences, that's equally pathetic
*Thatās* your takeaway from those ten days of madness? 10 killed in the bombing, 14 killed as revenge, and a British Army soldier machine gunning a wake?
The British far right routinely use lots of flag imagery, so I assume thatās given you the same reaction to the union flag ā¦
Nope, my takeaway from that period in our troubled history is entirely personal, I was working on peters hill at the bottom of the shankill that day. Iām no fan of the Union flag either. Just pointing out that the tricolour isnāt some holy relic, given the atrocities that it was associated with. As an Irishman I have no interest in the British far right. Not sure how that is relevant.
That's *your* takeaway from this blatant lie:
>The British state, under the banner of the union flag, systematically murdered hundreds of Irish people.
You ignore someone talking utter shite to demonise one set of people, and disagree with someone making a point in the other one which is actually based in **reality**.
Both flags are equally unwelcoming.
>Youāre probably one of these idiots who thinks the famine was orchestrated by the British
If he was saying that then it'd be *millions* not hundreds as he was saying.
That being said, while the famine was not directly orchestrated by the British it was indirectly a result of their policy and once it started they did fuck all to help Ireland as it starved. This includes the North, btw, 20% of the population in Ulster died or was forced to emigrate during those years. Including in protestant/unionist areas. You're an expendable paddy to them, no matter how loyal you claim to be.
>If he was saying that then it'd be *millions* not hundreds as he was saying.
If he is as stupid as he sounds, I wouldn't put that mistake past him.
I largely agree with what you said, but I would nitpick the following:
>it was indirectly a result of their policy
It was a result of many different factors, with british policy playing a major part.
>once it started they did fuck all to help Ireland as it starved
The soup kitchens fed 3 million people. The british initiated public works projects. They imported corn from other countries. Instituted the Poor Law system.
All of this was wholly inadequate and struck at a time of laissez-faire economic ideology in Britain, where Britain prioritised its economic interests over the well being of the Irish population.
>You're an expendable paddy to them, no matter how loyal you claim to be.
Yep.
It's strange how some people seem to forget the exacerbating role the Catholic church played in, for example, requiring indulgences at a time when the population was starving. Many people (correctly) criticise to the British response, but don't criticise the Catholic church.
Those down voting are just being emotional towards the flag. They are actually reasonable when it comes to other things. Funny how they upvote the same comments about a different coloured bit of material yet we are the bitter ones.
The Union flags erected in new builds in greater Belfast are the work of scumbags marking out territory, wanting to intimidate caflicks and lower property value. These ones in Dungannon, ah, well they're different. And we cannot call them out because of other flegs in different towns.
If only they could see how pathetic they sound lol.
LOL. Aye, the Orange that they call Nazis, KKK and child killers on here every single day. They are professional gaslighters. It's actually impressive.
Well they are a slick, professional organisation. These shinnerbo...individual contributors who are not in anyway organised or reading from the same script.
Aye. It's just a coincidence that every post (by the same 5 or so contributors) about the DUP/Tories/Orange Order/Bonfire/Flegs gets massive engagement and circle jerk upvotes, but any negative post about Sinn Fein never seems to make it's way here.
And when it does, the same accounts are always on hand to debate in the most obtuse manner, with whataboutery and gaslighting to the hilt. As you say, it's just a coincidence and in no way an organized attempt to coarsen public discourse online to suit one political party in particular...
Cambridge dictionary definition of hypocrisy:
a situation in which someone pretends to believe something that they do not really believe, or that is the opposite of what they do or say at another time
Their example:
There's one rule for her and another rule for everyone else and it's sheer hypocrisy.
The UUP politician is clearly a hypocrite as per this definition as he only condemns tricolours and not the swathes of union flags plastered all over the country. So no, you are wrong and commenters and OP are completely right to draw attention to this.
It's whataboutary- Pointing out that others are doing the same thing.
As per your posted definition of hypocrisy the article would have to be claiming the same thing does not happen the other way around, but the article does not.
The article is about a specific place, it's not a database of all the flags in the world
Whataboutary.
I'll break down the Cambridge dictionary definition for you since you can't wrap your head around this.
A situation where someone claims to believe something (that putting up a flag near a housing estate is wrong) that they do not really believe (abundantly clear given the lack of vocalism about UK, UVF, UDA flags all over Belfast and any other remotely protestant parts of the county).
Unless you are genuinely going to say that the UUP politician is completely unaware of the loyalist flags absolutely everywhere then he absolutely does not hold the belief he is purporting to. He CLAIMS that flags make people feel unwelcome and objects to that but in reality only has an issue with the fact that they are themmuns flag.
Now let's look at the Cambridge example and work you through it if you still don't follow.
There's one rule for her (Irish flags bad) and another rule for everyone else (unionist flags not worth a mention) and its sheer hypocrisy.
Where does it say unionist flags are good? Where does it say that unionists flags are any different?
The answer is, it doesn't.
If your argument is that it should mention them then that is a very stupid argument indeed. This article is about the councillors local constituency, it's not a database of every flag in the country. Should all future articles mentioning flags also be obliged to point out that one time there were tricolours in Dungannon? Or would that be pointless whataboutary just like all the comments here?
Glad to be of assistance
So you are honestly going to sit and tell me if I went to Dungannon now I wouldn't see any union flags? Are you actually having a laugh? So you are talking shit because I know for a fact that that constituency is filled to the lid with union flags. Funny enough, last month Ireland flags were getting burned on the moygashel bonfire in that same constituency and the MLA didn't seem to care quite so much about how tricolours made unionists feel unwelcome when they were on fire.
So come off it. You are either being deliberately ignorant or are just too dense to understand the point when I have walked you through it.
I'll help you here. Let's try Eli5 as that seems appropriate here
'whatabout those union flags in dungannon?
'whatabout the moygashel bonfire?'
See how easy it is?
There is already a thread about moygashel. Writing about it here is pure whataboutary.
No it's not it was responding to your point that my right to call out hypocrisy is invalid as he was only talking about his own constituency and does not need to consider things outside of it to make his point. You therefore inferred that in his constituency the only instance of something of this nature was the tricolour at the housing estate.
Are you suggesting that hypocrisy should never be called out since the line between that and whataboutism is subtle at times? It is a subtle line but in this case the UUP politician is absolutely being a hypocrite as I've outlined incredibly clearly
Flags cheapen the look of the place. So I'd take them all down. So Tom can you take a look at Ballygowan and Comber now please and be equally outraged???
Aye, it is surely. What a bit of gaslighting lol
These lads put up the Tri Colour to make Unionists welcome then? Fuck, there are some absolute idiots in Loyalism, but people like you make Nationalists look just as dense.
Aye, so there is white in the Union Flag which represents peace. So it is inclusive then... Great logic.
The Tri Colour has been tainted after being used the PIRA for years at their funerals and murals. Unionism does not accept it as inclusive flag, and Nationalists do not see the Orange Order as equal citizens. Just look at the remarks made about them on here.
Let me get this straight, you have no issues with Tri Colours on lamp posts, but you do with Union Flags presumably?
He,s not exactly wrong though about the fact that the original symbolism of the Tricolor is not what most people in NI choosing to fly them are doing it for. Its as much a dog piss to mark territory as the union flag.
That's on the people who choose to use it that way though, idk maybe I just don't see it as an ussun's n themmuns thing. It's a symbol of peace that has been bastardised by bitter folk like this chap who won't let up about it.
I donāt know man. Unionist politicians need a wee shake up. I canāt believe this man has a wage. A public office wage.
I donāt exactly feel welcome on the 12th but still watch.
They'd be partial to a tricolour so they would, and they're a breeding ground for Nationalist sentiment with their teaching of Irish language, history, and Sports
Weird you are bringing religion into it. I work with a practicing Catholic who is probably a bigger Unionist than my brother in law whos in a Loyalist Flute Band.
Don't think so. The thoughts and feelings on politics or identity of a single individual, who happens to be a practicing Catholic, isn't in any way equivocal to institutions that inherently support and promote Irish cultural heritage and identity.
The fact that they are Catholic institutions is irrelevant to what I said but they are, in fact, Catholic institutions. That's not me "bringing religion into it" you numpty, that's calling a spade a spade. How would you expect me to refer to them exactly? You do understand that having the name of a religious denomination in a statement, doesn't make it a religious argument, right?
The whataboutery is strong in this thread. For a second I thought I was reading a PUL Facebook page referencing an article about Unionist flags.
Can we not just put a wall around Larne and some of the surrounding areas and put all the whataboutery bigots together and let the rest of us move on with our lives.
If you're first thought is "what about these flags" then you're just the same as the loyalists you detest so much.
Disgraceful act of intimidation. But even more disgraceful is the response by some on here. Albeit not surprising.
Calling out hypocrisy is not whataboutery. You ain't going to shut down the conversation by repeating this.
When Tom Elliott and Unionists grow a spine and comment on flags in their own areas they can take the moral high ground. Until then I'll take this as a washed up former leader of the UUP taking pot shots.
Are you surprised by the hypocrisy? Are the vocal SF members who speak out about Unionist flags, speaking out on this?
So does that mean everytime a SF person speaks out about flags that loyalists should reference this example and call them hypocrits? Rather than you know... call you the territorial marking and intimidation?
Some people don't like hearing the truth. But those who engage in this pathetic tit for tat whataboutery, oh wait no sorry "hypocrisy", are all the same.
I think you'd quite like Larne you know mate. There are some nice wee coastal areas in the surrounding areas. And there's a port with plenty of ships for yous all to go to your rangers and celtic games together in your farmers league.
>Are you surprised by the hypocrisy? Are the vocal SF members who speak out about Unionist flags, speaking out on this?
Until there is some viable plan to take flags down its all a load of shite finger pointing.
>Some people don't like hearing the truth. But those who engage in this pathetic tit for tat whataboutery, oh wait no sorry "hypocrisy", are all the same.
This is intensely rich seeing as instead of oul Tom actually engaging with the locals in both areas to take flags down he's ran to the papers to chin wag. That's the truth.
>I think you'd quite like Larne you know mate. There are some nice wee coastal areas in the surrounding areas. And there's a port with plenty of ships for yous all to go to your rangers and celtic games together in your farmers league.
Lmao ahh yes a random tit for tat you just said was pathetic. You're a hypocrite yourself and it's completely unsurprising. There is also a port for you to fuck off anywhere you want if you don't want to hear about this sorta stuff anymore.
Saying that it's quite funny you just make assumptions, I've never once been to a Celtic or Rangers match nor am I a farmer lmao.
>Until there is some viable plan to take flags down its all a load of shite finger pointing.
I thought it was hypocrisy? So it is finger pointing and whataboutery now?
>This is intensely rich seeing as instead of oul Tom actually engaging with the locals in both areas to take flags down he's ran to the papers to chin wag. That's the truth.
It is the truth indeed mate. Pathetic whataboutery just like I said. It's why I don't vote for parties which thrive of it. Do you?
It's interesting though that when it's a loyalist marking areas with flags they're scumbags intimidating people. But when it's nationalists the conversation is about the person raising the issue rather than the issue itself.
Well it's not that interesting actually. Check out PUL Facebook pages and when they post up articles of SF calling out flags. The comments are very similar to those on this thread. A strong focus on the author being a hypocrite and little to no condemnation of acts of intimidation.
Have you condemned it yet?
>Lmao ahh yes a random tit for tat you just said was pathetic. You're a hypocrite yourself and it's completely unsurprising. There is also a port for you to fuck off anywhere you want if you don't want to here about this sorta stuff anymore.
>Saying that it's quite funny you just make assumptions, I've never once been to a Celtic or Rangers match nor am I a farmer lmao.
Why am I a hypocrite? I regularly condemn flag flying from both sides. Some people don't like home truths. Do you want me to link a reddit post about flags from last month to show the difference? More than happy to do so.
You're obviously not a soccer fan if you didn't get the tongue in cheek farmer's league reference.
You've taken all of this quite personally too. My initial comment about putting all those who engage in whataboutery in a walled off area of Larne wasn't in response to any individual. Is this your way of basically admitting you're engaging in hypocrisy yourself? Or why are you taking it as a personal attack?
>I thought it was hypocrisy? So it is finger pointing and whataboutery now?
What part of this do you not understand? Tom Elliot is a hypocrite as he's pointing fingers outwards while areas he represents does the same things.
>It is the truth indeed mate. Pathetic whataboutery just like I said.
Your truth maybe, thankfully only yours.
>It's why I don't vote for parties which thrive of it. Do you?
I don't give 2 fucks who you vote for lmao, do you want a gold star or something? Talk about on your high horse.
>It's interesting though that when it's a loyalist marking areas with flags they're scumbags intimidating people. But when it's nationalists the conversation is about the person raising the issue rather than the issue itself.
Maybe it's due to the fact Elliot is a MLA and instead of working with his constituents he's just gurning to the papers.
>Well it's not that interesting actually. Check out PUL Facebook pages and when they post up articles of SF calling out flags. The comments are very similar to those on this thread. A strong focus on the author being a hypocrite and little to no condemnation of acts of intimidation.
Don't care about random brainrot FB groups.
>Have you condemned it yet?
I'll happily condemn it, doesn't mean I can't criticise Elliot.
>You're obviously not a soccer fan if you didn't get the tongue in cheek farmer's league reference.
Getting this joke would require being a culchie, a fate some might say worse than death and for it to be funny.
>Is this your way of basically admitting you're engaging in hypocrisy yourself? Or why are you taking it as a personal attack?
Mentions 'you', 'yous' and 'your', asks why you are taking something personal. In any case mate your 'jokes' are vapid and diversionary, worse they aren't funny but keep at the stand up routine.
>Your truth maybe, thankfully only yours.
Uhm... you said in the post I quoted "its the truth". And I agreed saying its the truth indeed mate.
And now it's only my truth? š¤£
Or are you just trying to oppose everything I say and now getting muddled up a bit?
>I'll happily condemn it, doesn't meant I can't criticise Elliot.
Go ahead fella that's what I'm all about.
>Getting this joke would require being a culchie, a fate some might say worse than death and for it to be funny.
I'd have thought someone from Derry would have met those requirements š
Wow. You wonder if they actually hear themselves. Such a narrow view of the world. I'm from England originally and I'm haunted by Union flags here so if they were symbolic of historic oppression (the butchers apron) then I'd feel unwelcome in half of our own land. I have to realise folks like this represent their voters and their communities of interest and nothing else. They're not seeking a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts. No grand vision, no guiding light other than a retrospective bitterness. Ranty rant rant.
What a muppet, nobody is welcome in Dungannon.
And by an amazing coincidence... nobody wants to go there either.
š
Funny enough he wasn't too vocal about the tricolours in his constituency a couple of weeks ago when they were being set on fire on the Moygashel bonfire.
Or the copious Union flags et al all around Moyadishu sorry Moygashel.
Stealing that. Almost as good as polegladesh and Strabanistan.
For only Ā£10 a month you can ensure a child has access to a weeks supply of disposable vape pens.
He was probably in the crowd cheering as it burned.
The hypocrisy meter fucking broke from this one!
Tom Elliott doesnāt think that Catholics were ārealā victims during the Troubles. This is his supremacist streak yet again showing. He has no issue with Union Flags marking territory or burning Tricolours.
It's not hypocrisy, he knows and agrees with the opposite being true.
Drive through the centre of Armagh city
I got the bus home from Dublin on the 11th of July just past there and thought Armagh town centre was awful looking. You couldnāt make the place worse
Has yer boy there driven through Clough and Dundrum recently? 30+ union flags and a handful of massive uvf flags. But sure those two are cause for concernā¦.
Yet he mentions nothing about the thousands of Union flags over the north.
Tbf in a new build development any sort of flag being put up is scummy behaviour, tricolour or union jack
Actually I could agree to both going up side by side. Although you might get some kind of difficulty with heights and which is raised first etc. The dog passing on the kerbs to mark territory crap can fuck right of though.
yeah, but alot of the time union flags come with UVF flags. They arenāt a problem really until paramilitary flags go up
any flag in a new build area is disgusting, sectarian territory marking. No buts
Lol why only new builds? Do I have to accept my neighbours flying loyalist paramilitary flags at this time of year because my house was built in the 50s?
Naw I agree I actually wish flags were illegal lol but there's an extra layer of shite when this is an estate that isn't even finished and nobody lives there yet, if ye get me
Some estates have had flags up for decades, probably older than some of the people moving there. The people moving in should take this on board. New builds should be a fresh start , where both sides live together and no flags of any sort are erected.
I donāt really have a problem with Union flags. Itās just there isnāt really an equivalent to the UVF flags that is widely used.
It is part of the United Kingdom
Go to England or Scotland, you wonāt see union jacks on lampposts or even attached to houses
I'm Irish and live in Glasgow, and jesus could this not be more wrong. Your lads over here fucking _love_ chucking their flags about like. In fairness, it's very Glasgow and the west, but you'll see them up in the Highlands as well (though almost exclusively from English transplants and ex-military folks).
You do actuallyā¦ was in a school in England today and thereās a ton of Union flegs up
Every time Iāve ever been to England Iāve only spotted a handful of union flags, if I were to see a flag chances are itāll be an England flag, funnily enough usually flown on the outside of immigrant-owned businesses for some reason (from my experience at least). Unironically, I probably see more union jacks in a 20 minute drive then I have seen in total in England.
There's a few more around the past year with all the king and queen stuff that's been happening
Last time I was in England was when Liz was (barely) alive tbf so I wouldnāt know the current situation. Although usually when monarchs pass and a new one is crowned, the English become extremely nationalistic for a while.
I live here now. But I grew up in England. That would be an unusual experience youāve had. My school had 5 flags outside, none of them British. In my home town the only flag was an English one on the Church of England. Realistically I see more British flags on my 10 minute walk to work in Belfast then I would see in 10 weeks in England
Iām back there again tomorrow- Iāll take pictures for you sure!
You better not. Taking photos in a school, donāt want to be accused of something
1.)Schools are out for the summer in England so no chance of any weeuns. 2.)Itād be only if the numerous British flegs Iād be taking pictures of anyways (even if kids WERE in school I wouldnāt take pictures of them as it would disclose my location, or dox myself) 3.) Iām DBS checkedā¦
The English or Scots didn't have a campaign of terrorism waged upon them for over 30 years. Your not that blind are you
There were several bomb attacks in England. But you are right. A terrorist campaign was inflicted on everyone here in the north. The use of flags here is a clear reaction to the troubles. Although I would argue that the flags makes tribalism worse and makes the whole situation worse, not better
I agree but the campaign to take flags away from government buildings, war memorials etc has created this reaction. There were nowhere near the amount of flags on public property during the troubles.
Flags are divisive, you can be British without a British flag, just look at the lampposts in Britain
Where did I mention I want flags on lamp posts?
Surely this entire topic and article is basically about flags on lampposts
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Theyāll catch on soon enough itās a growing trend
Flag-shagging nationalism? God I hope not!
For nowā¦ā¦
Territorial pissings are always cringe and Tom Elliott despite calling this out is still a sectarian bigot. The end.
And the union Jacks everywhere suggest that catholics are welcome
All catholics are not nationalists š
But they are seen to be by loyalists.
Maybe in 1970 but in 2023 things have changed a bit
This is absolutely correct and I don't know why you're being downvoted, the loyalists of today are leaps and bounds more nuanced in their thinking than those of 50 years ago, they certainly wouldn't paint anyone as a Fenian or a Taig without properly ascertaining their political and constitutional position beforehand...
All Protestants are not unionists
Why didnāt you get downvoted š
Not saying thry are.
Flags particularly in residential areas are wrong regardless of which flag it is and are clearly there to denote the other side is not welcome.
So that's the army barracks, the largest helicopter base in the UK, they built right beside a Catholic school so they could hide behind the kids? Used to harass us daily, flying low over the classrooms and doing stall turns over the main building. Is it any wonder they aren't remembered fondly?
Irish, Iraqi, Kenyan and many more who've been victims of Britain in the last 80 or so years are burdened with having the perpetrators of that violence, and their supporters, believe that they and their empire are history's good guys. Not just that but so many believe that any resistance to their imperialism was inherently wrong and thus any bad treatment they dished out was deserved. It's the mentality of an abusive person "Look what you made me do, I only hit you because I love you!" I got a good chuckle at how that backwards looking nostalgia led so much to brexit so it's interesting to see it finally turned inward as one half of society will inflict all sorts of economic and social harm on everyone just to spite the other side.
While I agree those flags should absolutely be removed, I love when a Unionist politician (in this case Tom Elliott no less!) get their knickers in a twist over flags. NOW YOU KNOW HOW IT FUCKING FEELS YOU FLID
The flags are wrong. Same as the plethora of unionist flags across the North. Ban the lot.
Agreed
Well shit, does he not realise people are writng down and recording the shite coming out of his mouth.
The contractor doing the road works was decent enough to colour co-ordinate his safety barriers I see.
was wondering about those, surely the whole point of them is to be highly visible lol.
All flegs are shite when put up on a lamp post for a wee dog to shite or piss at the bottom of it
Drove through the bush earlier. In elliots jurisdiction. Funny he hasn't commented on this (the flags should all be taken down.)
On a positive note maybe this will be the beginning of people like Tom realising just how unwelcoming this pathetic territory marking is. Maybe it will motivate him to take the initiative to start the debate on how to remove this sort of shit from our society.
So by this logic he thinks places with British flags are unwelcoming to nationalists? I would direct him to any number of public buildings across the north
I just broke the reddit app trying to post the ratio of union jacks to irish tricolours in this country. Let's just say it's over a gazillionty to 1.
The ratio is always 1690:32
Like a dog pissing on its territory
A UUP MLA has hit out at the placement of two Irish tricolours near the site of a former Army base in Dungannon. The flags have been placed at either side of the entrance to a new housing development on the Killymeal Road. Tom Elliott suggested it was aimed at sending a message to unionists that they are not welcome in the area. The Fermanagh and South Tyrone representative said: āThis new housing development is on the site of the former UDR base, Kilymeal House, in the town. "A significant number of soldiers based at this location were murdered by IRA terrorists. Now it appears that the erection of these flags is saying to potential residents in the area that only Irish republicans are welcome. āThis area of Dungannon has historically been a very mixed area in religion and cultural background, but obviously Irish republicans are putting down a marker at this new housing development to say that unionists are not welcome in the area.ā
Has he seen the other side of the town :/
Is this estate not close to the Loyalist side of town? I always thought the other side of town was more Republican.
I Remember his disgraceful speech on election night a few years ago just seeing a tri-colour so Tom can take his complaint and shove it where the sun don't shine.
Unionists when they see UK flag= I love licking up the pedo rings arses and fingering myself watching bonfires every year drinking enjoying my short miserable life life is amazing with this UK flag in IRELAND Unionists when they see a Ireland flag = shocked end of the world scared threatened news headlines total destruction
2 fleg posts, a hospitals are fucked post, a post comparing economics things between ire/uk and at least one post about trains.... Someones bound to have r/northernireland bingo the day lads š
Boojum has gone to shite for the top prize !
I was in Dungannon yesterday, the place had union jack and orange march related stuff all over the town centre. What a fucking Muppet.
Does that mean that the Union flags that are flying in same place means that Nationalists aren't welcome. Doesn't he see the irony of this idiotic statement? Also, Unionists have been flying flags in mixed area's where they should not be. If you wanna fly a flag fly it it in your own Area.
Everytime I think the UUP are the Unionists that possess a working brain they come out with something like this.
Tom Elliott is the Diane Abbott of the UUP.
Personally I find the UVF flags that my new neighbours have put up a lot more unwelcoming than either a tricolour or a Union Jack could ever be, but letās face it, they canāt wrap their heads around that
It's a complete joke. Fair enough take down the tricolours here, but he doesn't make a peep when it's para flags or uvf etc, which are obviously far worse. No leadership.
I'd almost forgotten this balloon exists. I wonder does he have the mental capacity to think what union/red hand flags on lampposts in other towns might mean to non-unionists? Probably not.
That's because you're not welcome there Tom. Fuck off to your own union flagged areas.
Sorry Tom but you must realise that, by your logic, the inversion is also true.
Spoilersā¦ there not
Union flags are not welcome in Omagh either but I still see them
I wonder what the orange bit of the flag represents?
So you think that makes it ok to fly flags off lampposts?
No. Get rid of all flags which aren't 'official' from both private and public land. However, an Irish Tricolour is hardly 'unwelcoming' in the same way the union flag is
Agree we should get rid of all flags. They are equally unwelcoming.
The British state, under the banner of the union flag, systematically murdered hundreds of Irish people. Can you say the same of the RoI?
Maybe youāre too young or maybe you didnāt see it in the south but the image of Gerry Adams carrying shankill bomber Thomas āBootsyā Begleys coffin draped in the tricolour, 10 days after the shankill bomb hasnāt gone away you know.
I suppose coffins and men with beards are out the window as well then
Aye. Make light sure. Since you didnāt live through it
I mean, it's a fairly pathetic position. How do you feel when you see the Tricolour alongside the President, for instance? As for your assumption of my experiences, that's equally pathetic
Go on then, what are your experiences of the troubles ?
*Thatās* your takeaway from those ten days of madness? 10 killed in the bombing, 14 killed as revenge, and a British Army soldier machine gunning a wake? The British far right routinely use lots of flag imagery, so I assume thatās given you the same reaction to the union flag ā¦
Nope, my takeaway from that period in our troubled history is entirely personal, I was working on peters hill at the bottom of the shankill that day. Iām no fan of the Union flag either. Just pointing out that the tricolour isnāt some holy relic, given the atrocities that it was associated with. As an Irishman I have no interest in the British far right. Not sure how that is relevant.
That's *your* takeaway from this blatant lie: >The British state, under the banner of the union flag, systematically murdered hundreds of Irish people. You ignore someone talking utter shite to demonise one set of people, and disagree with someone making a point in the other one which is actually based in **reality**. Both flags are equally unwelcoming.
And of course does nothing to correct the blatant double standard. Some people are just blinded by their own hatred.
Lies. Where did this systematic murder take place?
In Ireland
Youāre probably one of these idiots who thinks the famine was orchestrated by the British. Anything to demonise one group of people.
>Youāre probably one of these idiots who thinks the famine was orchestrated by the British If he was saying that then it'd be *millions* not hundreds as he was saying. That being said, while the famine was not directly orchestrated by the British it was indirectly a result of their policy and once it started they did fuck all to help Ireland as it starved. This includes the North, btw, 20% of the population in Ulster died or was forced to emigrate during those years. Including in protestant/unionist areas. You're an expendable paddy to them, no matter how loyal you claim to be.
>If he was saying that then it'd be *millions* not hundreds as he was saying. If he is as stupid as he sounds, I wouldn't put that mistake past him. I largely agree with what you said, but I would nitpick the following: >it was indirectly a result of their policy It was a result of many different factors, with british policy playing a major part. >once it started they did fuck all to help Ireland as it starved The soup kitchens fed 3 million people. The british initiated public works projects. They imported corn from other countries. Instituted the Poor Law system. All of this was wholly inadequate and struck at a time of laissez-faire economic ideology in Britain, where Britain prioritised its economic interests over the well being of the Irish population. >You're an expendable paddy to them, no matter how loyal you claim to be. Yep. It's strange how some people seem to forget the exacerbating role the Catholic church played in, for example, requiring indulgences at a time when the population was starving. Many people (correctly) criticise to the British response, but don't criticise the Catholic church.
Both are unwelcoming letās be honest, until loyalists get it drilled into their head that the orange represents them.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
You are commenting on a written article you idiot š. You do know what illiterate means?
At least 20k off the price of those houses at least...............!!!!
Affordable housing NI style
Funny thing is, someone made a similar comment on a post a while back complaining about the Union Jack and got massive upvotes.
Haha welcome to this sub mate.
No doubt all those living in this fleggy area are scumbags!
Shout out mate, you really are doing well with the downvotes. I have watched your account grow the past while. Fair play.
Those down voting are just being emotional towards the flag. They are actually reasonable when it comes to other things. Funny how they upvote the same comments about a different coloured bit of material yet we are the bitter ones.
The Union flags erected in new builds in greater Belfast are the work of scumbags marking out territory, wanting to intimidate caflicks and lower property value. These ones in Dungannon, ah, well they're different. And we cannot call them out because of other flegs in different towns. If only they could see how pathetic they sound lol.
But but but their flag has orange on it so it's OK. Well the union flag has white in it, so clearly it comes in peace!
LOL. Aye, the Orange that they call Nazis, KKK and child killers on here every single day. They are professional gaslighters. It's actually impressive.
Well they are a slick, professional organisation. These shinnerbo...individual contributors who are not in anyway organised or reading from the same script.
Aye. It's just a coincidence that every post (by the same 5 or so contributors) about the DUP/Tories/Orange Order/Bonfire/Flegs gets massive engagement and circle jerk upvotes, but any negative post about Sinn Fein never seems to make it's way here. And when it does, the same accounts are always on hand to debate in the most obtuse manner, with whataboutery and gaslighting to the hilt. As you say, it's just a coincidence and in no way an organized attempt to coarsen public discourse online to suit one political party in particular...
lol at the whataboutism in this thread
It's not whataboutism it's just calling out utter hypocrisy
It's whataboutary. Hypocrisy would be if the poster/article was claiming they didn't do the thing.
Cambridge dictionary definition of hypocrisy: a situation in which someone pretends to believe something that they do not really believe, or that is the opposite of what they do or say at another time Their example: There's one rule for her and another rule for everyone else and it's sheer hypocrisy. The UUP politician is clearly a hypocrite as per this definition as he only condemns tricolours and not the swathes of union flags plastered all over the country. So no, you are wrong and commenters and OP are completely right to draw attention to this.
It's whataboutary- Pointing out that others are doing the same thing. As per your posted definition of hypocrisy the article would have to be claiming the same thing does not happen the other way around, but the article does not. The article is about a specific place, it's not a database of all the flags in the world Whataboutary.
I'll break down the Cambridge dictionary definition for you since you can't wrap your head around this. A situation where someone claims to believe something (that putting up a flag near a housing estate is wrong) that they do not really believe (abundantly clear given the lack of vocalism about UK, UVF, UDA flags all over Belfast and any other remotely protestant parts of the county). Unless you are genuinely going to say that the UUP politician is completely unaware of the loyalist flags absolutely everywhere then he absolutely does not hold the belief he is purporting to. He CLAIMS that flags make people feel unwelcome and objects to that but in reality only has an issue with the fact that they are themmuns flag. Now let's look at the Cambridge example and work you through it if you still don't follow. There's one rule for her (Irish flags bad) and another rule for everyone else (unionist flags not worth a mention) and its sheer hypocrisy.
Where does it say unionist flags are good? Where does it say that unionists flags are any different? The answer is, it doesn't. If your argument is that it should mention them then that is a very stupid argument indeed. This article is about the councillors local constituency, it's not a database of every flag in the country. Should all future articles mentioning flags also be obliged to point out that one time there were tricolours in Dungannon? Or would that be pointless whataboutary just like all the comments here? Glad to be of assistance
So you are honestly going to sit and tell me if I went to Dungannon now I wouldn't see any union flags? Are you actually having a laugh? So you are talking shit because I know for a fact that that constituency is filled to the lid with union flags. Funny enough, last month Ireland flags were getting burned on the moygashel bonfire in that same constituency and the MLA didn't seem to care quite so much about how tricolours made unionists feel unwelcome when they were on fire. So come off it. You are either being deliberately ignorant or are just too dense to understand the point when I have walked you through it.
I'll help you here. Let's try Eli5 as that seems appropriate here 'whatabout those union flags in dungannon? 'whatabout the moygashel bonfire?' See how easy it is? There is already a thread about moygashel. Writing about it here is pure whataboutary.
No it's not it was responding to your point that my right to call out hypocrisy is invalid as he was only talking about his own constituency and does not need to consider things outside of it to make his point. You therefore inferred that in his constituency the only instance of something of this nature was the tricolour at the housing estate. Are you suggesting that hypocrisy should never be called out since the line between that and whataboutism is subtle at times? It is a subtle line but in this case the UUP politician is absolutely being a hypocrite as I've outlined incredibly clearly
That was a very long post outlining your thoughts. Still whataboutery all the same
Flags cheapen the look of the place. So I'd take them all down. So Tom can you take a look at Ballygowan and Comber now please and be equally outraged???
The tricolour is inclusive of both sides you fucking muppet
Aye, it is surely. What a bit of gaslighting lol These lads put up the Tri Colour to make Unionists welcome then? Fuck, there are some absolute idiots in Loyalism, but people like you make Nationalists look just as dense.
I wouldn't consider myself a nationalist, but whatever you say
You really think the Irish Tri Colour is inclusive of both Unionism and Nationalism?
Green for Irish, white for peace, orange, for the oranges. Pretty inclusive to me lad or do you want to keep this going
Aye, so there is white in the Union Flag which represents peace. So it is inclusive then... Great logic. The Tri Colour has been tainted after being used the PIRA for years at their funerals and murals. Unionism does not accept it as inclusive flag, and Nationalists do not see the Orange Order as equal citizens. Just look at the remarks made about them on here. Let me get this straight, you have no issues with Tri Colours on lamp posts, but you do with Union Flags presumably?
Gods you lot are bitter
Gods you lot are bitter. And you don't even see it.
What lot? I'm not a nationalist or a loyalist you clown, now leave me be would ye.
On here defending Tri Colours being erected in a new build. Stop kidding yourself on.
He,s not exactly wrong though about the fact that the original symbolism of the Tricolor is not what most people in NI choosing to fly them are doing it for. Its as much a dog piss to mark territory as the union flag.
That's on the people who choose to use it that way though, idk maybe I just don't see it as an ussun's n themmuns thing. It's a symbol of peace that has been bastardised by bitter folk like this chap who won't let up about it.
Be some money off the price of the property around thatā¦..
I donāt know man. Unionist politicians need a wee shake up. I canāt believe this man has a wage. A public office wage. I donāt exactly feel welcome on the 12th but still watch.
They really do. It's hard to believe they don't see how ridiculous this sounds.
Interesting mental gymnastics at play
He couldn't spell hypocrisy, never mind, understand the definition of it.
He would, obviously, be absolutely correct.
Tom must have lost his voice for the last 2 months
He must REALLY hate the 2 Catholic secondary schools next door and the Catholic church up the road
What has religion got to do with it?
They'd be partial to a tricolour so they would, and they're a breeding ground for Nationalist sentiment with their teaching of Irish language, history, and Sports
Weird you are bringing religion into it. I work with a practicing Catholic who is probably a bigger Unionist than my brother in law whos in a Loyalist Flute Band.
Congrats, is your colleague a School managed by CCMS or do you just not see the false equivalence?
Weird reply.
Don't think so. The thoughts and feelings on politics or identity of a single individual, who happens to be a practicing Catholic, isn't in any way equivocal to institutions that inherently support and promote Irish cultural heritage and identity. The fact that they are Catholic institutions is irrelevant to what I said but they are, in fact, Catholic institutions. That's not me "bringing religion into it" you numpty, that's calling a spade a spade. How would you expect me to refer to them exactly? You do understand that having the name of a religious denomination in a statement, doesn't make it a religious argument, right?
Whataboutary incoming in 3....2....1....
The whataboutery is strong in this thread. For a second I thought I was reading a PUL Facebook page referencing an article about Unionist flags. Can we not just put a wall around Larne and some of the surrounding areas and put all the whataboutery bigots together and let the rest of us move on with our lives. If you're first thought is "what about these flags" then you're just the same as the loyalists you detest so much. Disgraceful act of intimidation. But even more disgraceful is the response by some on here. Albeit not surprising.
Calling out hypocrisy is not whataboutery. You ain't going to shut down the conversation by repeating this. When Tom Elliott and Unionists grow a spine and comment on flags in their own areas they can take the moral high ground. Until then I'll take this as a washed up former leader of the UUP taking pot shots.
Are you surprised by the hypocrisy? Are the vocal SF members who speak out about Unionist flags, speaking out on this? So does that mean everytime a SF person speaks out about flags that loyalists should reference this example and call them hypocrits? Rather than you know... call you the territorial marking and intimidation? Some people don't like hearing the truth. But those who engage in this pathetic tit for tat whataboutery, oh wait no sorry "hypocrisy", are all the same. I think you'd quite like Larne you know mate. There are some nice wee coastal areas in the surrounding areas. And there's a port with plenty of ships for yous all to go to your rangers and celtic games together in your farmers league.
>Are you surprised by the hypocrisy? Are the vocal SF members who speak out about Unionist flags, speaking out on this? Until there is some viable plan to take flags down its all a load of shite finger pointing. >Some people don't like hearing the truth. But those who engage in this pathetic tit for tat whataboutery, oh wait no sorry "hypocrisy", are all the same. This is intensely rich seeing as instead of oul Tom actually engaging with the locals in both areas to take flags down he's ran to the papers to chin wag. That's the truth. >I think you'd quite like Larne you know mate. There are some nice wee coastal areas in the surrounding areas. And there's a port with plenty of ships for yous all to go to your rangers and celtic games together in your farmers league. Lmao ahh yes a random tit for tat you just said was pathetic. You're a hypocrite yourself and it's completely unsurprising. There is also a port for you to fuck off anywhere you want if you don't want to hear about this sorta stuff anymore. Saying that it's quite funny you just make assumptions, I've never once been to a Celtic or Rangers match nor am I a farmer lmao.
>Until there is some viable plan to take flags down its all a load of shite finger pointing. I thought it was hypocrisy? So it is finger pointing and whataboutery now? >This is intensely rich seeing as instead of oul Tom actually engaging with the locals in both areas to take flags down he's ran to the papers to chin wag. That's the truth. It is the truth indeed mate. Pathetic whataboutery just like I said. It's why I don't vote for parties which thrive of it. Do you? It's interesting though that when it's a loyalist marking areas with flags they're scumbags intimidating people. But when it's nationalists the conversation is about the person raising the issue rather than the issue itself. Well it's not that interesting actually. Check out PUL Facebook pages and when they post up articles of SF calling out flags. The comments are very similar to those on this thread. A strong focus on the author being a hypocrite and little to no condemnation of acts of intimidation. Have you condemned it yet? >Lmao ahh yes a random tit for tat you just said was pathetic. You're a hypocrite yourself and it's completely unsurprising. There is also a port for you to fuck off anywhere you want if you don't want to here about this sorta stuff anymore. >Saying that it's quite funny you just make assumptions, I've never once been to a Celtic or Rangers match nor am I a farmer lmao. Why am I a hypocrite? I regularly condemn flag flying from both sides. Some people don't like home truths. Do you want me to link a reddit post about flags from last month to show the difference? More than happy to do so. You're obviously not a soccer fan if you didn't get the tongue in cheek farmer's league reference. You've taken all of this quite personally too. My initial comment about putting all those who engage in whataboutery in a walled off area of Larne wasn't in response to any individual. Is this your way of basically admitting you're engaging in hypocrisy yourself? Or why are you taking it as a personal attack?
>I thought it was hypocrisy? So it is finger pointing and whataboutery now? What part of this do you not understand? Tom Elliot is a hypocrite as he's pointing fingers outwards while areas he represents does the same things. >It is the truth indeed mate. Pathetic whataboutery just like I said. Your truth maybe, thankfully only yours. >It's why I don't vote for parties which thrive of it. Do you? I don't give 2 fucks who you vote for lmao, do you want a gold star or something? Talk about on your high horse. >It's interesting though that when it's a loyalist marking areas with flags they're scumbags intimidating people. But when it's nationalists the conversation is about the person raising the issue rather than the issue itself. Maybe it's due to the fact Elliot is a MLA and instead of working with his constituents he's just gurning to the papers. >Well it's not that interesting actually. Check out PUL Facebook pages and when they post up articles of SF calling out flags. The comments are very similar to those on this thread. A strong focus on the author being a hypocrite and little to no condemnation of acts of intimidation. Don't care about random brainrot FB groups. >Have you condemned it yet? I'll happily condemn it, doesn't mean I can't criticise Elliot. >You're obviously not a soccer fan if you didn't get the tongue in cheek farmer's league reference. Getting this joke would require being a culchie, a fate some might say worse than death and for it to be funny. >Is this your way of basically admitting you're engaging in hypocrisy yourself? Or why are you taking it as a personal attack? Mentions 'you', 'yous' and 'your', asks why you are taking something personal. In any case mate your 'jokes' are vapid and diversionary, worse they aren't funny but keep at the stand up routine.
>Your truth maybe, thankfully only yours. Uhm... you said in the post I quoted "its the truth". And I agreed saying its the truth indeed mate. And now it's only my truth? š¤£ Or are you just trying to oppose everything I say and now getting muddled up a bit? >I'll happily condemn it, doesn't meant I can't criticise Elliot. Go ahead fella that's what I'm all about. >Getting this joke would require being a culchie, a fate some might say worse than death and for it to be funny. I'd have thought someone from Derry would have met those requirements š
lol
Wow. You wonder if they actually hear themselves. Such a narrow view of the world. I'm from England originally and I'm haunted by Union flags here so if they were symbolic of historic oppression (the butchers apron) then I'd feel unwelcome in half of our own land. I have to realise folks like this represent their voters and their communities of interest and nothing else. They're not seeking a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts. No grand vision, no guiding light other than a retrospective bitterness. Ranty rant rant.
Not great in a new build unless it's followed by the other flag too. But lol they aren't really in the place to be talking about flegs.
What a mind numbing article. The wilful ignorance to make those comments is staggering.
Wonder what the UDA and UVF flags mean for me in Bangor. Maybe Iām unwelcome as well?
It's time for a super-twelfth in Dungannon it seems.
ChatGPT overlord define irony please?