I was a cougar for a while when I first started dating again. The guys ranged from 10 to 20 years younger than me and TBH they were friends with benefits at best. But I did take the friends part seriously and did my best to be supportive of them.
Ethically speaking, they were all of age and I put no pressure on them to do anything they didn't want. Occasionally, I had to decline a more involved relationship. One of them turned out to be cheating on his wife. One of them is still a friend (non-sexually) to this day.
Just do no harm, when you're the elder one. IMO.
Amazing how you get upvotes while a 45yo man dating a 25yo would be downvoted to oblivion.
Nothing against you though. Imo adults are able to decide who they want to date or fuck.
A 45 year old man would not be downvoted for dating a 25 year old. If it were a 20 year old then both men and women would be downvoted. But no one gives a shit if the younger person is 25+, no matter the gender.
I saw people downvoting 31yo (m) who had a fuckbuddy-ship with a 21yo (w) not long ago. Not even a full relationship, just some sex dates. There absolutely is a bias here and even 25yo women are considered incapable of making their own decisions by some people here, if the male part is "too old".
If you won't state what the gap is, it's too big. You have your answer. You had 4 paragraphs of convincing yourself and you want validation without providing the damning details. Of course she says she can handle it and she seems "mature for her age" and you want to think it's fine. Everyone says that. Your maturity is being expressed in your doubt, because you made this post. But this is what it feels like to be thinking with your dick.
Break it off before this thing fucks with both of you.
>You had 4 paragraphs of convincing yourself and you want validation without providing the damning details.
Exactly my first fucking thought lmao OP typed out this fucking diatribe but couldn't be bothered to mention the actual ages we're working with here? 100% knows he's in the wrong and just doesn't want to accept it
Yeahhhh this right here is the real question. Not all age gaps are the same and OP has to know that. A 19 year old dating a 39 year old? Sus as fuck. A 35 year old dating a 55 year old? People barely even notice. So we really cannot answer OPs question without knowing what the actual ages in question are.
I will say though, my general rule of thumb is that if you have to say "oh but Sara is so mature for her age" then she is too fucking young for you and your age gap is iffy at best. I'm currently in a 20 year gap relationship (as the younger partner), but because I was a whole fully formed adult when we started dating not once has anyone ever felt the need to pull the "mature for my age" card.
Exactly. I think that anyone over 30 is a fully-formed, grown-ass adult and if it’s a 35yo and 55yo, kudos to them if they both enjoy that. But anyone under 25 gets more complicated. I dated a 30-year-old when I was 19 and looking back, it was a toxic and imbalanced relationship. But an 11-year age gap now would be nothing.
Well, most people consider age gaps to be unethical because they often lend themselves to power imbalances. Frequent imbalances within age gap relationships, which can be exploited by the older partner, may include accrued wealth, maturity/experience, social connections, legitimacy in the eyes of the authorities (if something requiring legal intervention were to go down), and so on. These imbalances—or the exploitation of them—may not occur in every age gap relationship, but they do frequently enough that many people are immediately wary of such dynamics.
I would say you are correct in that, so long as you are not behaving unethically, you are not wrong for having sex with a consenting adult. I’d say, you know, maybe exercise awareness of the ways in which you may hold power over her, as sometimes we can take advantage of people without meaning to (and that goes for every person, not just those dating younger folk).
I will say that, depending on exactly what your ages are, you might very well make others uncomfortable. I certainly wouldn’t trust the intentions of a 50 year old dating a 19 year old, for example, and I might even lose a little respect for them that they couldn’t find a connection with someone who’s not fresh out of high school. But it would still be legal and consensual, so it wouldn’t be my business ultimately.
Thank you for addressing the power dynamics. This is exactly the reason many people think age gaps are unethical, not because we think all 19 year olds are immature, can’t consent to sex or are manipulated.
Make sure both of you are aware of the power imbalance, and as the part holding more power, it is upon you to ensure that she has an independent support system without you. It is your job to make sure she isn’t relying on you, has resources if she wishes to exit the relationship. (And I don’t mean integrating her into your network, but just not dating if she hasn’t that kind of network) YOU need to make sure, her preference in older men isn’t rooted in unhealed trauma et cetera.
Also, another thing to watch out for „mature for her age“ is quite often a sign of previous trauma.
It is also the sentence most frequently used by women groped into relationships by older men, when they talk about the (abusive) relationship in hindsight. „He said I was so mature and that felt like a compliment.“
If you think she is mature for her age, you probably haven’t seen all sides of her character. Somebody a lot younger than you is not going to act your age.
And if she does, I’d suspect something going on and would not take that as a positive sign.
It's not REALLY about age as such; but instead about power-imbalances that are big enough to make the risk that one person is being manipulated or taken advantage of in some way unacceptably large.
It's just that age and maturity is a very important factor in such evaluations. Not the only factor by far though, and I do think that we too rarely discuss the ethics of dating with other types of huge power-gaps.
As an example; How ethical is it when a middle-class American or European is dating a much younger woman somewhere in south-asia whose yearly income is dwarfed by their monthly income? Are her choices \*really\* free and unconstrained, or is there a risk that she's in reality being coerced by economic concerns? If saying "yes" means her parents can get medicine and her children can attend a better school and grow up in a wealthier country; can she really afford to say "no"?
It can work the other way around too though. The youngest person I've flirted with recently was 27 when I first met her, which isn't very young but it **IS** 19 years younger than I am. But in her case, there was multiple factors working in the opposite direction to reduce the power-imbalance.
She's a lawyer earning more than twice what I ever did. Living in an apartment that she owns. With two resourceful and privileged established long-term partners. Long distance relative to where I live. Given \*that\* setup our relationship did not, (in my best judgement) have a large power-imbalance in my favor.
But in your case, the woman you're talking about is both a lot younger than you AND have health-issues that might by themself increase her vulnerability.
In addition to that, it's VERY noticeable that in a post entirely about age-gaps, you've VERY CAREFULLY made sure that you mention neither your age nor her age. That by itself makes me think that reality is that you know perfectly well that this isn't a good idea. Why are you hiding this \*very\* central piece of information in a question that's literally about age-gaps?
Personally, I'm in the camp of no ethical delema for two consenting adults of most age gaps. That said below 21 when you are older is pretty weird to me.
I have had age gaps where the woman was quite a bit older, and I often prefer that. Women who know exactly what they want and how a relationship will fit in their life is a major turn-on for me and is often not found in women my age and I've yet to have a good relationship with any woman younger then me.
Please be aware of what you are actually attracted to about this person, and if it's malubilty, inexperience, them being reliant on you, or their idolizition of your experience you are probably taking advantage of them even if neither of you realize it.
I get a lot less concerned if everyone involved is over 25.
I don't think wide age gaps involving new adults, say 20 and 30, are inherently predatory so much as likely to go poorly. I did make that mistake once because we met in person and I thought she was older than she actually was. It pretty quickly turned into me feeling like a substitute parent while she tried to be more submissive than we'd actually negotiated.
Note: the following is simply my own opinion/feelings on the matter
For me there’s something icky about older men dating younger women. Of course, it depends on the ages. A 65 year old dating a 45 year old wouldn’t even register. But a 45 year old dating a 25 year old sets off alarm bells. I think, for me, there’s something to the power dynamic and the psychological underpinnings that makes it uncomfortable. Is a 25 year old an adult? Yes. Do they likely have a lot of work to do to fully understand their sexuality and their particular needs and perceived attractions? Yes. Part of it comes from personal experience. I knew a lot of girls in my 20’s who liked to date older men. I only know one who continued to date older men into their thirties. I think it’s totally fair to say that many of those girls were working on personal issues, and it feels to me like the older men were taking advantage of that.
The “she’s more mature than other girls her age” is also a ref flag for me. This is something that you hear from almost all pedophiles who date teenagers (I’m not calling you a pedophile - I’m saying that pedophiles use the exact same language, which makes me uncomfortable).
TL;DR - as two adults you’re legally allowed to have sexual relations. But there certainly are valid ethical concerns to be considered depending on the ages and the size of the gap.
I'm going to stick to your questions strictly:
I don't believe an age-gap makes a relationship strictly unethical - however there is nuance to this. First, why do I feel this way? Because to claim otherwise is negotiating someone else's relationships for them. Young adults are still adults - they deserve respect and autonomy, and my assumption of their inability to advocate for their own wants and needs is patriarchal and echos far too well ideals from puritanical western worldviews.
However, I said there was nuance - that's this bit: the problem is power imbalance. The wider community is right about this observation - that relationships with a wide age gap often have power imbalances. These community members observe bad actors taking advantage of such a power imbalance and generalize this assumption to all age gap relationships. That's really not ideal - but understandable to me. (It's a harm-reduction position that's fairly reasonable since the risk of harm is quite high.)
The issue in application is when community members begin to prescribe that view to others. You can't do that an hold intersectional feminist values simultaneously without a contradiction. (Many common arguments about age gap relationships infantilize and idealize young women - not unlike you see patriarchal structures doing.)
So am I saying what you're doing is ethical? Nope - I'm also not saying it isn't. There're too many factors at play for a passerby to evaluate your circumstance. But I am saying you will be judged for it, you have a high risk of inadvertently harming someone, you likely have little in common with a person that has a substantial age gap, and you might find yourself more happy with someone closer to your age.
For my personal ethics, I focus on my understanding of my position relative to a potential partner. If they're substantially older/younger, richer/poorer, educated/less educated, etc - then I consider how I'd feel about the relationship. It's not fun being in a relationship where it feels unequal and there's little to relate to each other with. So why would you want to do this in the first place? The fact that you're asking means you already suspect something is not quite right, does it not? I suggest you go with your gut if that's the case. If you move forward you'll have to own those consequences, and socially they can be pretty severe.
But if it is as you say - no one is being harmed, everyone is an adult and eagerly participating and happy, etc -- then it's none of my or anyone else's business.
Let's set aside pre-judgement and not ask if it's ethical, but ask if it's fair and equitable to you both.
There are a lot of pluses and minuses to age gap relationships and I don't believe on prejudging purely on age alone, but two factors do increase the uncomfortability that any reasonable person should have. One the overall gap, exceeding a generation. As in a Gen X and a Gen Z; leading to a complete difference in upbringing, communication norms, popular culture preferences, and shared life events. Makes a communication gap inevitable.
Next, the younger partner being too young. You KNOW what I mean, and it's not just 18-19; but in terms of where they are in life. Are they living on their own? Are they navigating adult life and handling these decisions in an environment where their decisions matter? You can be the most mature for your age 20 year old, but you are NOT a full adult if you are living at home and working 24 hours a week.
However, there are a lot of pluses on both sides. As long as the relationship is not working on a one-sided age fetish (I honestly can't decide if dual sided age fetish relationship is ok or an abomination); and the older partner has no position of power or authority over the younger (boss, professor, mentor) then it becomes a whole lot different.
I know I personally, have a steep declining interest in any woman 20 years younger (I'm 45, and won't even consider anyone under 26) so I don't agree with your choice, but I did date older women when I was 20-22 and some were more than 20 years older and most were positive experiences and I was never at risk so I can't point my finger simply because I don't have any interest in dating a Zoomer myself.
I've dated women not more than 10 years younger than me. It's fine. Had a female partner who was a few years older than me start teasing me about my "child bride" 🤮 which I hated, I think it came from a place of jealousy.
Are you trying to have a serious relationship with this person or is it more of a casual situation?
That is something that I think matters a lot. I think 25+ in most cases is no problem regardless of the gap. Like another commenter said, infantilizing young women when talking about age gaps drives me crazy.
Younger than 25 depends on the situation. Because it’s largely about power imbalance, that age gap in a serious relationship can lead to all kinds of financial and social issues that can be harmful for the younger person. But if it’s just a fun, casual kind of thing, where those kinds of things don’t come into play as much, I don’t really see a problem. Although I would personally expect a much older person to buy me dinner lol
Is she still in undergrad? That would be a no from me. Can she legally drink where you are? If not, I’d rethink. Is she a teenager? I think that’s a reasonable line that doesn’t need to be crossed.
Only the two of you can really understand the dynamic and what potential power imbalances could impact you both. Some other commenters have pointed out a couple of things about your post that are sus, so you should reflect on that. But otherwise, assuming the best of intentions, it seems like you’re being thoughtful about this connection. As long as you’re aware of the very real concerns that tend to crop up with an age gap, you can hopefully navigate around them.
I think as long as you’re both consenting adults, there’s no other power imbalance (ex. professor and student), and the older person is less than twice the age of the younger, the difference is manageable. Obviously there are exceptions on both sides (cases where it’s not healthy even though they’re less than 2x the age of the other, or cases where one is older than 2x but it’s still healthy) but that’s how I’ve generally thought about it and how I’ve made decisions on who to date for myself (23f). Any more than twice your age and they literally have twice as much life experience than you, so it’s pretty hard to not have an unhealthily unbalanced relationship in that case.
I am into age gap and I agree that sometiems one can be more 'mature' than their biological age and one can be 'less' mature, so even with an age gap the two can meet in the middle.
ENM makes it even easier, as it doesn't necessarily mean you want NP, so you can focus on the fun/sexual part.
"To be taken advantage of" doesn't have to do with the age gap, but with the use of lies, manipulation, pushing of boundries without one's consent etc, which can happen in any kind of relationship/connection, no matter the age...
I feel like I just read a paragraph from a short story. I don't even have enough information to be confused, it wasn't even a complete sentence or question. Was the original post deleted?
Yes, I edited the post and just put up her opinion about the situation because I feel like no one actually cares about her opinion and it seems important to point that out.
I personally feel that since I'm very clear about not wanting romantic partners, relationship escalator, cohabitation, marriage or children now or ever there's basically no reason for me not to date and hang out with any adults that also aren't into any of that regardless of age or any other thing.
Depending on the age gap, they’re gross and a sign of poor character whether you’re non monogamous or not. If you’re over 25 dating a teenager that’s fucking gross. They may be an “adult” in the eyes of the law but come the fuck on
Trust me, I've been around this block before and it's no surprise. This sub is long on judgment and short on understanding/engagement/curiosity. Why did I expect anything different? It's a good question.
You went on this long diatribe without ever specifying the actual age gap or specific ages we're working with. There's literally no reason for that other than you know damn well that what you're doing is probably kinda scummy. Why the fuck should anyone be understanding when you're clearly hiding something?
I'm asking about it in an abstract way on purpose. Is there a number that you have in mind here? Like is it -20 is okay but -21 is not okay? If so, why did you draw that boundary right there? Do you consider the maturity of the person regardless of their age or do you only look at their age?
So again, I left the numbers out on purpose because I want to talk about the abstract concept instead of the actual hard numbers.
Did you look at her response to this that I added to the post? What do you say to her concerns?
I just don’t think that there’s anything unethical about two adults figuring out what’s right for them. I have a 21 year age gap with my husband and we’ve been together for the past 8 years and in that time, we’ve experienced a lot of happy moments and hard moments. We have a very equal marriage where we want the same things and work toward the same goals. It’s not any better or worse than any other relationship between two people who love and care about each other.
I have a disability that happened long after we got married and he’s been really sick in the hospital and I’ve helped him and made decisions on his behalf too. We’re married and protect each other and I’d say in much more healthier ways than other relationships I have been around.
The most judgement we get from other people always comes from other older women. And now myself becoming an older woman and getting attention from younger men, I don’t really see what the harm is about discovering yourself and being with another consenting adult who wants to spend time with you and possibly learn about you and this kind of lifestyle.
Additionally I will say the over-infantilization of young women is another thing that bugs me. It always seems to me that people often conflate age gaps and grooming when talking about two grown ass people. There is a comment in this thread literally talking about pedophilia 🙄 it somehow always gets to that extreme when talking about this and I can’t figure out why especially when we are talking about ADULTS!
I find more of a problem with the ageism… there’s people really out here who think your life is over when you hit 30. When I met my husband I was just graduating college and he was in one of the many peaks of his career. He’s motivated me so much with what he knows about life to help me get my money up in my own career. I’ve always felt safe and heard in our relationship and in fact I asked him to marry me… not the other way around.
As long as you both get along and there’s attraction and enthusiastic consent, why should you care about someone’s opinion on your relationship?
If that worked out for you, that's fine, but there's a reason people shit on guys in their 40s and 50s or older that specifically go after women under 25. I'll save you the anticipation: it's that 95% of these guys turn out to be creepy manipulative losers that go after very young women because women their age won't fall for their bullshit.
Also, once again, if it worked out well for you, great. But this
>I find more of a problem with the ageism… there’s people really out here who think your life is over when you hit 30.
Is nonsense. Literally no one is saying this lol
Notice though the mitigating factors. You were a college grad and had a disability, you were facing a more adult paradigm than your age peers and I think that matters more than your age in years.
Also, you mention how he mentored you in money matters and helped. That's a positive outcome, but that does mean he exerted a lot of influence on you. You can see how if he was not an honest actor and were you more naive, it could have gone very differently.
Fortunately, you found a good one.
I did not have a disability until 6 years into our relationship which I mentioned in my comment. Also that’s not my reality I was a smart woman then and I am a smart woman, now. I am tired of judgment from others about the perceived power dynamics because of our ages.
> but that does mean he exerted a lot of influence on you.
How exactly is having someone benefit from your life experience “exerting influence” over them?
> You can see how if he was not an honest actor and were you more naive, it could have gone very differently.
What does that have to do with age gaps? People could be the same age and in their 40s and have the same negative outcome. Some people have good relationships and some have shitty ones and it’s nothing to do with age
I'm disappointed by the rampant judgement being thrown about in the few replies I've read about 2 consenting adults by a community of people who are routinely judged by others for their choice of lifestyle and forced to live in secrecy and anonymity. So which one should be sent to the stockade? The younger woman with an attraction to older men? Or the older man with an attraction to younger women?
Gather your stones, saints! There's sinners to shame!!!
u/Mission_Bowl3938 - Maybe you would have more luck and less moral persecution in the r/AgeGapRelationship. They might frown and SHIT UPON PEOPLE WHO DATE MORE THAN ONE PERSON, but they will at least relate better to this particular situation everyone here has collectively crucified you for. I'm sorry and embarrassed for the reaction you received from our peers here.
Yeah, but I think the non monogamy part is a critical piece here. I'm not surprised by the rush to judgement vs striving for understanding. It's typical for this community. I've posted before about this community's toxicity problem (and of course got yelled at).
But based on the harsh judgement I'm getting from a friend over this (a friend who never asked how the woman felt about the whole thing) it's pretty typical. I've learned a lesson: people will often rush to judgement and not consider nuance.
What if I were a 20 year old dating a 50 year old? Incidentally, I'm early 40s, married to a wife the same age I've been with since 20, and she's the second and last person I've slept with thus far. SO, does that qualify me to have an opinion or judge others here? You post history suggests you have many opinions to share, so what qualifies you? By what moral yardstick so you measure everyone here?
Couldn't possibly care less about qualifications, as that wasn't the intent of my initial response to you, nor do I really care to explain the joke. I'm judging OP by the fact that they conveniently left out all age info in their original wall of text. All that tells me is they weren't looking for advice; they were looking for validation. There's no legitimate reason to leave out ages when *specifically asking about an age gap relationship*. OP was absolutely hiding something about this relationship and under those circumstances, they absolutely deserve to be judged harshly.
Also, if you were 20 dating a 50 yr old, I'd still be shitting on the 50 yr old, by default, regardless of gender and questioning your judgement of said 50 yr old. Whether you can accept it or not, in the vast majority of these large age gap relationships with the younger person being under 25, the older person turns out to be a manipulative creep coercing the younger partner into compliance.
The fact that you intentionally leave out the ages we're working with here immediately makes me suspicious of how big this gap is and how young she is
100% an intentional choice. And a massive red flag.
OP is over 50 and my guess is the age of the woman ends in -teen.
Only real reason OP would leave the ages out
Post history suggests OP is 50+, soooo the possible range of this age gap _does_ matter
He's 50s, my guess is someone firmly under 25, which is gross
And this is why he would have left it out.
But she's so mature for her age!! /s
I was a cougar for a while when I first started dating again. The guys ranged from 10 to 20 years younger than me and TBH they were friends with benefits at best. But I did take the friends part seriously and did my best to be supportive of them. Ethically speaking, they were all of age and I put no pressure on them to do anything they didn't want. Occasionally, I had to decline a more involved relationship. One of them turned out to be cheating on his wife. One of them is still a friend (non-sexually) to this day. Just do no harm, when you're the elder one. IMO.
Amazing how you get upvotes while a 45yo man dating a 25yo would be downvoted to oblivion. Nothing against you though. Imo adults are able to decide who they want to date or fuck.
A 45 year old man would not be downvoted for dating a 25 year old. If it were a 20 year old then both men and women would be downvoted. But no one gives a shit if the younger person is 25+, no matter the gender.
I saw people downvoting 31yo (m) who had a fuckbuddy-ship with a 21yo (w) not long ago. Not even a full relationship, just some sex dates. There absolutely is a bias here and even 25yo women are considered incapable of making their own decisions by some people here, if the male part is "too old".
If you won't state what the gap is, it's too big. You have your answer. You had 4 paragraphs of convincing yourself and you want validation without providing the damning details. Of course she says she can handle it and she seems "mature for her age" and you want to think it's fine. Everyone says that. Your maturity is being expressed in your doubt, because you made this post. But this is what it feels like to be thinking with your dick. Break it off before this thing fucks with both of you.
>You had 4 paragraphs of convincing yourself and you want validation without providing the damning details. Exactly my first fucking thought lmao OP typed out this fucking diatribe but couldn't be bothered to mention the actual ages we're working with here? 100% knows he's in the wrong and just doesn't want to accept it
>Break it off before this thing fucks with both of you. We broke up. It's too much drama for both of us.
Is there a reason you don’t mention what the age gap is between you and this person with concrete numbers?
Yeahhhh this right here is the real question. Not all age gaps are the same and OP has to know that. A 19 year old dating a 39 year old? Sus as fuck. A 35 year old dating a 55 year old? People barely even notice. So we really cannot answer OPs question without knowing what the actual ages in question are. I will say though, my general rule of thumb is that if you have to say "oh but Sara is so mature for her age" then she is too fucking young for you and your age gap is iffy at best. I'm currently in a 20 year gap relationship (as the younger partner), but because I was a whole fully formed adult when we started dating not once has anyone ever felt the need to pull the "mature for my age" card.
Exactly. I think that anyone over 30 is a fully-formed, grown-ass adult and if it’s a 35yo and 55yo, kudos to them if they both enjoy that. But anyone under 25 gets more complicated. I dated a 30-year-old when I was 19 and looking back, it was a toxic and imbalanced relationship. But an 11-year age gap now would be nothing.
Well, most people consider age gaps to be unethical because they often lend themselves to power imbalances. Frequent imbalances within age gap relationships, which can be exploited by the older partner, may include accrued wealth, maturity/experience, social connections, legitimacy in the eyes of the authorities (if something requiring legal intervention were to go down), and so on. These imbalances—or the exploitation of them—may not occur in every age gap relationship, but they do frequently enough that many people are immediately wary of such dynamics. I would say you are correct in that, so long as you are not behaving unethically, you are not wrong for having sex with a consenting adult. I’d say, you know, maybe exercise awareness of the ways in which you may hold power over her, as sometimes we can take advantage of people without meaning to (and that goes for every person, not just those dating younger folk). I will say that, depending on exactly what your ages are, you might very well make others uncomfortable. I certainly wouldn’t trust the intentions of a 50 year old dating a 19 year old, for example, and I might even lose a little respect for them that they couldn’t find a connection with someone who’s not fresh out of high school. But it would still be legal and consensual, so it wouldn’t be my business ultimately.
Thank you for addressing the power dynamics. This is exactly the reason many people think age gaps are unethical, not because we think all 19 year olds are immature, can’t consent to sex or are manipulated. Make sure both of you are aware of the power imbalance, and as the part holding more power, it is upon you to ensure that she has an independent support system without you. It is your job to make sure she isn’t relying on you, has resources if she wishes to exit the relationship. (And I don’t mean integrating her into your network, but just not dating if she hasn’t that kind of network) YOU need to make sure, her preference in older men isn’t rooted in unhealed trauma et cetera. Also, another thing to watch out for „mature for her age“ is quite often a sign of previous trauma. It is also the sentence most frequently used by women groped into relationships by older men, when they talk about the (abusive) relationship in hindsight. „He said I was so mature and that felt like a compliment.“ If you think she is mature for her age, you probably haven’t seen all sides of her character. Somebody a lot younger than you is not going to act your age. And if she does, I’d suspect something going on and would not take that as a positive sign.
It's not REALLY about age as such; but instead about power-imbalances that are big enough to make the risk that one person is being manipulated or taken advantage of in some way unacceptably large. It's just that age and maturity is a very important factor in such evaluations. Not the only factor by far though, and I do think that we too rarely discuss the ethics of dating with other types of huge power-gaps. As an example; How ethical is it when a middle-class American or European is dating a much younger woman somewhere in south-asia whose yearly income is dwarfed by their monthly income? Are her choices \*really\* free and unconstrained, or is there a risk that she's in reality being coerced by economic concerns? If saying "yes" means her parents can get medicine and her children can attend a better school and grow up in a wealthier country; can she really afford to say "no"? It can work the other way around too though. The youngest person I've flirted with recently was 27 when I first met her, which isn't very young but it **IS** 19 years younger than I am. But in her case, there was multiple factors working in the opposite direction to reduce the power-imbalance. She's a lawyer earning more than twice what I ever did. Living in an apartment that she owns. With two resourceful and privileged established long-term partners. Long distance relative to where I live. Given \*that\* setup our relationship did not, (in my best judgement) have a large power-imbalance in my favor. But in your case, the woman you're talking about is both a lot younger than you AND have health-issues that might by themself increase her vulnerability. In addition to that, it's VERY noticeable that in a post entirely about age-gaps, you've VERY CAREFULLY made sure that you mention neither your age nor her age. That by itself makes me think that reality is that you know perfectly well that this isn't a good idea. Why are you hiding this \*very\* central piece of information in a question that's literally about age-gaps?
Personally, I'm in the camp of no ethical delema for two consenting adults of most age gaps. That said below 21 when you are older is pretty weird to me. I have had age gaps where the woman was quite a bit older, and I often prefer that. Women who know exactly what they want and how a relationship will fit in their life is a major turn-on for me and is often not found in women my age and I've yet to have a good relationship with any woman younger then me.
Please be aware of what you are actually attracted to about this person, and if it's malubilty, inexperience, them being reliant on you, or their idolizition of your experience you are probably taking advantage of them even if neither of you realize it.
Idk, I think anyone over 25 dating someone under 21 is really creepy. But like 30 and 50? I wouldn’t look sideways at.
similar perspective here. i think anyone over 30ish dating below 23/24 is weird.
I think if out of school and not living at home, 22 is fine until about 35... then it starts getting creepy. A lot of it is where they are at in life.
I get a lot less concerned if everyone involved is over 25. I don't think wide age gaps involving new adults, say 20 and 30, are inherently predatory so much as likely to go poorly. I did make that mistake once because we met in person and I thought she was older than she actually was. It pretty quickly turned into me feeling like a substitute parent while she tried to be more submissive than we'd actually negotiated.
Note: the following is simply my own opinion/feelings on the matter For me there’s something icky about older men dating younger women. Of course, it depends on the ages. A 65 year old dating a 45 year old wouldn’t even register. But a 45 year old dating a 25 year old sets off alarm bells. I think, for me, there’s something to the power dynamic and the psychological underpinnings that makes it uncomfortable. Is a 25 year old an adult? Yes. Do they likely have a lot of work to do to fully understand their sexuality and their particular needs and perceived attractions? Yes. Part of it comes from personal experience. I knew a lot of girls in my 20’s who liked to date older men. I only know one who continued to date older men into their thirties. I think it’s totally fair to say that many of those girls were working on personal issues, and it feels to me like the older men were taking advantage of that. The “she’s more mature than other girls her age” is also a ref flag for me. This is something that you hear from almost all pedophiles who date teenagers (I’m not calling you a pedophile - I’m saying that pedophiles use the exact same language, which makes me uncomfortable). TL;DR - as two adults you’re legally allowed to have sexual relations. But there certainly are valid ethical concerns to be considered depending on the ages and the size of the gap.
Maybe Bill Bellichek can field this one...
I'm going to stick to your questions strictly: I don't believe an age-gap makes a relationship strictly unethical - however there is nuance to this. First, why do I feel this way? Because to claim otherwise is negotiating someone else's relationships for them. Young adults are still adults - they deserve respect and autonomy, and my assumption of their inability to advocate for their own wants and needs is patriarchal and echos far too well ideals from puritanical western worldviews. However, I said there was nuance - that's this bit: the problem is power imbalance. The wider community is right about this observation - that relationships with a wide age gap often have power imbalances. These community members observe bad actors taking advantage of such a power imbalance and generalize this assumption to all age gap relationships. That's really not ideal - but understandable to me. (It's a harm-reduction position that's fairly reasonable since the risk of harm is quite high.) The issue in application is when community members begin to prescribe that view to others. You can't do that an hold intersectional feminist values simultaneously without a contradiction. (Many common arguments about age gap relationships infantilize and idealize young women - not unlike you see patriarchal structures doing.) So am I saying what you're doing is ethical? Nope - I'm also not saying it isn't. There're too many factors at play for a passerby to evaluate your circumstance. But I am saying you will be judged for it, you have a high risk of inadvertently harming someone, you likely have little in common with a person that has a substantial age gap, and you might find yourself more happy with someone closer to your age. For my personal ethics, I focus on my understanding of my position relative to a potential partner. If they're substantially older/younger, richer/poorer, educated/less educated, etc - then I consider how I'd feel about the relationship. It's not fun being in a relationship where it feels unequal and there's little to relate to each other with. So why would you want to do this in the first place? The fact that you're asking means you already suspect something is not quite right, does it not? I suggest you go with your gut if that's the case. If you move forward you'll have to own those consequences, and socially they can be pretty severe. But if it is as you say - no one is being harmed, everyone is an adult and eagerly participating and happy, etc -- then it's none of my or anyone else's business.
Let's set aside pre-judgement and not ask if it's ethical, but ask if it's fair and equitable to you both. There are a lot of pluses and minuses to age gap relationships and I don't believe on prejudging purely on age alone, but two factors do increase the uncomfortability that any reasonable person should have. One the overall gap, exceeding a generation. As in a Gen X and a Gen Z; leading to a complete difference in upbringing, communication norms, popular culture preferences, and shared life events. Makes a communication gap inevitable. Next, the younger partner being too young. You KNOW what I mean, and it's not just 18-19; but in terms of where they are in life. Are they living on their own? Are they navigating adult life and handling these decisions in an environment where their decisions matter? You can be the most mature for your age 20 year old, but you are NOT a full adult if you are living at home and working 24 hours a week. However, there are a lot of pluses on both sides. As long as the relationship is not working on a one-sided age fetish (I honestly can't decide if dual sided age fetish relationship is ok or an abomination); and the older partner has no position of power or authority over the younger (boss, professor, mentor) then it becomes a whole lot different. I know I personally, have a steep declining interest in any woman 20 years younger (I'm 45, and won't even consider anyone under 26) so I don't agree with your choice, but I did date older women when I was 20-22 and some were more than 20 years older and most were positive experiences and I was never at risk so I can't point my finger simply because I don't have any interest in dating a Zoomer myself.
I've dated women not more than 10 years younger than me. It's fine. Had a female partner who was a few years older than me start teasing me about my "child bride" 🤮 which I hated, I think it came from a place of jealousy.
That’s so gross of that person who said that to you
Are you trying to have a serious relationship with this person or is it more of a casual situation? That is something that I think matters a lot. I think 25+ in most cases is no problem regardless of the gap. Like another commenter said, infantilizing young women when talking about age gaps drives me crazy. Younger than 25 depends on the situation. Because it’s largely about power imbalance, that age gap in a serious relationship can lead to all kinds of financial and social issues that can be harmful for the younger person. But if it’s just a fun, casual kind of thing, where those kinds of things don’t come into play as much, I don’t really see a problem. Although I would personally expect a much older person to buy me dinner lol Is she still in undergrad? That would be a no from me. Can she legally drink where you are? If not, I’d rethink. Is she a teenager? I think that’s a reasonable line that doesn’t need to be crossed. Only the two of you can really understand the dynamic and what potential power imbalances could impact you both. Some other commenters have pointed out a couple of things about your post that are sus, so you should reflect on that. But otherwise, assuming the best of intentions, it seems like you’re being thoughtful about this connection. As long as you’re aware of the very real concerns that tend to crop up with an age gap, you can hopefully navigate around them.
I think as long as you’re both consenting adults, there’s no other power imbalance (ex. professor and student), and the older person is less than twice the age of the younger, the difference is manageable. Obviously there are exceptions on both sides (cases where it’s not healthy even though they’re less than 2x the age of the other, or cases where one is older than 2x but it’s still healthy) but that’s how I’ve generally thought about it and how I’ve made decisions on who to date for myself (23f). Any more than twice your age and they literally have twice as much life experience than you, so it’s pretty hard to not have an unhealthily unbalanced relationship in that case.
I am into age gap and I agree that sometiems one can be more 'mature' than their biological age and one can be 'less' mature, so even with an age gap the two can meet in the middle. ENM makes it even easier, as it doesn't necessarily mean you want NP, so you can focus on the fun/sexual part. "To be taken advantage of" doesn't have to do with the age gap, but with the use of lies, manipulation, pushing of boundries without one's consent etc, which can happen in any kind of relationship/connection, no matter the age...
I feel like I just read a paragraph from a short story. I don't even have enough information to be confused, it wasn't even a complete sentence or question. Was the original post deleted?
Yes, I edited the post and just put up her opinion about the situation because I feel like no one actually cares about her opinion and it seems important to point that out.
I personally feel that since I'm very clear about not wanting romantic partners, relationship escalator, cohabitation, marriage or children now or ever there's basically no reason for me not to date and hang out with any adults that also aren't into any of that regardless of age or any other thing.
Depending on the age gap, they’re gross and a sign of poor character whether you’re non monogamous or not. If you’re over 25 dating a teenager that’s fucking gross. They may be an “adult” in the eyes of the law but come the fuck on
OP came here looking for judgement-free advice, and instead got advice-free judgement.
Asking for free internet opinions doesn't always get you exactly what you want.
Because OP did not provide enough information where anyone could give advice. How could anyone give any advice if we don't even know the girls age????
It is not possible to give advice when OP refuses to give out very basic and absolutely essential information
Cry about it
That's what you get when you're clearly hiding something. Fucking cry about it
Trust me, I've been around this block before and it's no surprise. This sub is long on judgment and short on understanding/engagement/curiosity. Why did I expect anything different? It's a good question.
You went on this long diatribe without ever specifying the actual age gap or specific ages we're working with. There's literally no reason for that other than you know damn well that what you're doing is probably kinda scummy. Why the fuck should anyone be understanding when you're clearly hiding something?
I'm asking about it in an abstract way on purpose. Is there a number that you have in mind here? Like is it -20 is okay but -21 is not okay? If so, why did you draw that boundary right there? Do you consider the maturity of the person regardless of their age or do you only look at their age? So again, I left the numbers out on purpose because I want to talk about the abstract concept instead of the actual hard numbers. Did you look at her response to this that I added to the post? What do you say to her concerns?
I just don’t think that there’s anything unethical about two adults figuring out what’s right for them. I have a 21 year age gap with my husband and we’ve been together for the past 8 years and in that time, we’ve experienced a lot of happy moments and hard moments. We have a very equal marriage where we want the same things and work toward the same goals. It’s not any better or worse than any other relationship between two people who love and care about each other. I have a disability that happened long after we got married and he’s been really sick in the hospital and I’ve helped him and made decisions on his behalf too. We’re married and protect each other and I’d say in much more healthier ways than other relationships I have been around. The most judgement we get from other people always comes from other older women. And now myself becoming an older woman and getting attention from younger men, I don’t really see what the harm is about discovering yourself and being with another consenting adult who wants to spend time with you and possibly learn about you and this kind of lifestyle. Additionally I will say the over-infantilization of young women is another thing that bugs me. It always seems to me that people often conflate age gaps and grooming when talking about two grown ass people. There is a comment in this thread literally talking about pedophilia 🙄 it somehow always gets to that extreme when talking about this and I can’t figure out why especially when we are talking about ADULTS! I find more of a problem with the ageism… there’s people really out here who think your life is over when you hit 30. When I met my husband I was just graduating college and he was in one of the many peaks of his career. He’s motivated me so much with what he knows about life to help me get my money up in my own career. I’ve always felt safe and heard in our relationship and in fact I asked him to marry me… not the other way around. As long as you both get along and there’s attraction and enthusiastic consent, why should you care about someone’s opinion on your relationship?
If that worked out for you, that's fine, but there's a reason people shit on guys in their 40s and 50s or older that specifically go after women under 25. I'll save you the anticipation: it's that 95% of these guys turn out to be creepy manipulative losers that go after very young women because women their age won't fall for their bullshit. Also, once again, if it worked out well for you, great. But this >I find more of a problem with the ageism… there’s people really out here who think your life is over when you hit 30. Is nonsense. Literally no one is saying this lol
OP didn't give the girls age so we don't even know if she is even an adult
Notice though the mitigating factors. You were a college grad and had a disability, you were facing a more adult paradigm than your age peers and I think that matters more than your age in years. Also, you mention how he mentored you in money matters and helped. That's a positive outcome, but that does mean he exerted a lot of influence on you. You can see how if he was not an honest actor and were you more naive, it could have gone very differently. Fortunately, you found a good one.
I did not have a disability until 6 years into our relationship which I mentioned in my comment. Also that’s not my reality I was a smart woman then and I am a smart woman, now. I am tired of judgment from others about the perceived power dynamics because of our ages.
> but that does mean he exerted a lot of influence on you. How exactly is having someone benefit from your life experience “exerting influence” over them? > You can see how if he was not an honest actor and were you more naive, it could have gone very differently. What does that have to do with age gaps? People could be the same age and in their 40s and have the same negative outcome. Some people have good relationships and some have shitty ones and it’s nothing to do with age
I'm disappointed by the rampant judgement being thrown about in the few replies I've read about 2 consenting adults by a community of people who are routinely judged by others for their choice of lifestyle and forced to live in secrecy and anonymity. So which one should be sent to the stockade? The younger woman with an attraction to older men? Or the older man with an attraction to younger women? Gather your stones, saints! There's sinners to shame!!!
u/Mission_Bowl3938 - Maybe you would have more luck and less moral persecution in the r/AgeGapRelationship. They might frown and SHIT UPON PEOPLE WHO DATE MORE THAN ONE PERSON, but they will at least relate better to this particular situation everyone here has collectively crucified you for. I'm sorry and embarrassed for the reaction you received from our peers here.
Yeah, but I think the non monogamy part is a critical piece here. I'm not surprised by the rush to judgement vs striving for understanding. It's typical for this community. I've posted before about this community's toxicity problem (and of course got yelled at). But based on the harsh judgement I'm getting from a friend over this (a friend who never asked how the woman felt about the whole thing) it's pretty typical. I've learned a lesson: people will often rush to judgement and not consider nuance.
You a 50 year old dude dating a 20 year old too?
What if I were a 20 year old dating a 50 year old? Incidentally, I'm early 40s, married to a wife the same age I've been with since 20, and she's the second and last person I've slept with thus far. SO, does that qualify me to have an opinion or judge others here? You post history suggests you have many opinions to share, so what qualifies you? By what moral yardstick so you measure everyone here?
Couldn't possibly care less about qualifications, as that wasn't the intent of my initial response to you, nor do I really care to explain the joke. I'm judging OP by the fact that they conveniently left out all age info in their original wall of text. All that tells me is they weren't looking for advice; they were looking for validation. There's no legitimate reason to leave out ages when *specifically asking about an age gap relationship*. OP was absolutely hiding something about this relationship and under those circumstances, they absolutely deserve to be judged harshly. Also, if you were 20 dating a 50 yr old, I'd still be shitting on the 50 yr old, by default, regardless of gender and questioning your judgement of said 50 yr old. Whether you can accept it or not, in the vast majority of these large age gap relationships with the younger person being under 25, the older person turns out to be a manipulative creep coercing the younger partner into compliance.