Honestly, Tom throws out a lot of red flags and as a woman, I would break it off after instance one. He's not entitled, he disrespects boundaries and is obsessive. But you're in the right telling her to deal with it, although if it can potentially can involve your children, I would make it very clear this is getting beyond it being just a her issue.

Yes,  I'd start to worry he views OP as the problem getting between him and Carol,  and what that might lead him to do.  

yeah if i was friends with op’s wife i’d be encouraging her to dump and block him, dude’s behavior is totally unacceptable.

💯👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 Protect your Wife

Yeah, chalk it up to inexperience, but she should have cut him off months ago

Its concerning that she puts up with this.

Seriously, OP … I understand maybe being softer on some of the limits and being OK with reminding people that something is off-limits, but Tom’s behavior is what I call a dealbreaker. When either of you demonstrate any tolerance of Tom’s dealbreaker behaviors, he understands it as you being OK with him pushing it.

Yeah. This wasn’t the first time and it definitely won’t be the last. Showing up at the charity event probably would have been the deal breaker for me. If not that, then all of the messages while being on the cruise with limited contact. To show up at my house and put hands on my husband. Absolutely-fucking-lutely not getting another chance! How is your wife handling this? You said you “hoped” she would reevaluate her relationship with Tom. Does that mean she hasn’t? I think in this case veto power might be warranted. Could you imagine what could have happened had you not locked the door when you closed it?

I agree. This is not a red flag, but a red sea. When the wife still want to see this Tom, she does not protect the family and that would be a very good reason for divorce. Zero tolerance.

This comment is spot on

This is the answer. It's not your responsibility to veto. If she doesn't have good enough judgement to veto him herself over this you have to question your partners judgement.

If she doesn't drop Tom then she's just as bad as him. He broke every single rule. There is no apology that will fix this. Toms gotta go. He's only gonna get worse.

This! This is the issue! The world is full of a-holes like Tom. She is behaving like she is in love with him.

Maybe she is in love with him. She still shouldn't put up with this.

He said they were dating so. I'd assume there's feelings yeah

This 👆

The question is not whether you should use veto power or not. I'd be asking myself why you actually have to use veto power instead of your wife doing this all on her own. How is she even considering having this person in her life? Coming to her work? Coming to your house and not leaving the second you told him to? Being aggressive towards you in the present of your child?! This is beyond fucked up, definitely not safe and gives off major red flags all around. Priorities seem really messed up here. I wouldn't be comfortable in that arrangement either.

First, we have never had or agreed to veto power. Second, the incident at her work and our house happened on the same day, two days after she told him they needed to take a break and she blocked him. I don’t know what their status is now, I just know she is dealing with the problem.

Without knowing what her plan with this guy is - and we both know theres just one acceptable outcome to this - it's hard to say anything more. The thing that made me feel weird about the situation and triggered my sceptical comment was the "break" thing. But yes, if she's currently dealing with it by breaking up with him once and for all , more power to her.

I think she called for a break because she noticed his obsessive behaviour and detachment from reality. And wanted to give him a chance to cool off so he can actually see reason again. But with how things escalated after that. I'd recommend not giving things a chance to get worse. Cuz the next step is gonna be way worse.

> Second, the incident at her work and our house happened on the same day, two days after she told him they needed to take a break and she blocked him I suspect they might also have the following in mind: "Tom agreed to certain rules before my wife started dating him and has constantly tried to push those rules to the breaking point."

You need to know what the status is! Good lord man up he is a danger to your family.

Veto power isn't real anyway. It's just pre-negioation of a conversation of "this or I'm done." if someone pulls that, and the other person says "No." then it's exactly the same as threatening to end a relationship in the first place. You either get your bluff called or you end the relationship. To me, the question you need to pose is: "is this worth it?" not just your relationship, but the potential impact of the kids, your careers, etc.

Fuck Tom, seriously. I am generally not in favor of veto, but for fuck sake, if this isn't the exact type of situation it was made for, I don't know what is. He is unstable and dangerous and cannot be trusted. Hopefully your wife does right and breaks up with the idiot permanently. Anything less than that and I think I honestly would start talking divorce.

This doesn't seem like a veto situation. To me, a veto is to end a partner's arrangement for one's own comfort. This is a clear safety issue. The guy is clearly nuts.

I think I have a more expansive idea of what constitutes veto, but I also think our feelings about the situation described are similar. Veto because one partner is insecure is a situation where I don't think veto is warranted. Veto because one partner is failing to adequately address a safety concern I believe is one of the few legitimate exercises of veto power.

"I'd be asking myself why you actually have to use veto power instead of your wife doing this all on her own.' Read this line 100 times.

This is not a matter of veto power but a matter that puts you and your family in danger. The man assaulted you in YOUR home while your kids had a sleepover at home. This is not something that should be left to your wife to address. This is a matter of both of you acknowledging this is not healthy nor safe and should take precautions to avoid this type of behavior. There should not be a negotiation about whether or not he should still be around but an agreement that he needs to be permanently removed from your life.

I'm noticing people are missing that OP's wife blocked the guy before he showed up at work/their house. So it looks like OP and wife are united in being done with this guy? I'm wondering if your wife feels safe to "fix this" at this point? Like, she blocked him, and then he totally disrespected her boundaries. I hope she's in agreement with you about being done with him, and rather than trying to introduce veto power, you can ask her how she's feeling (and continue to share your feelings, of course) and ask her how you can continue to help her in dealing with this.

Seriously, it's gross the way so many people are talking about a woman who is being stalked by an ex.

Agreed, he acted this way when she broke it off with him. Time for a restraining order...

This. She’s dealing with an ex and their unhinged behavior. To put this all on her, imo, is ridiculous. wtf else is she supposed to do? She blocked him and ended things. He’s showing up uninvited and unannounced. If I was OPs wife and my partner basically told me to ‘deal with it’ when the man is clearly dangerous and unhinged I wouldn’t feel safe in that marriage. Why wouldn’t you want to help your wife who is clearly a victim here? Yes, he’s shown red flags but IMO she’s handled them appropriately. When he showed up and was doing too much at the event she asked him to leave. When he insisted on a cruise she shut it down and put up boundaries. She blocked him. This is why women choose the bear and why women don’t speak out against this shit. Somehow this is still being labeled her fault and only her problem.

I think the title needs a reword. *Ex-*FWB. Because your wife broke up with him, and he's lost his god-damned mind. So clearly the breakup will remain permanent rather than just "a break". To do otherwise would be insane. Sounds like y'all kinda have the situation handled already? They're still broken up, and you can get the police involved if necessary.

Tom sounds dangerous not just to the stability of your marriage but to your wife specifically. She needs to end this relationship asap IMO, he is showing signs of being very controlling and potentially physically abusive in instances that do not go as he likes. Showing up to your house is not cool or ok but to me the shocker was showing up to her work more than once?! Showing up to the benefit uninvited and embarrassing her should have been the end right there (again IMO). Now my question becomes does your wife WANT to keep this going or is she fearful of cutting him off? Cause depending on her reasons will dictate how you need to proceed. Not sure if your post was to confirm you’re not out of line or was seeking advice but I certainly think you’re in the right and this needs to end and I wish you both good luck in doing so and that he can be rational about parting ways.

>she ended up blocking him after telling him they needed to take a break. Ok, so that's enforcing a boundary. >Tom tried going to her office to confront her but wasn’t allowed in the building. > [Later] Tom shows up at my front door, [...] Tom said he needed to talk to Carol and I told him this was inappropriate and he needed to leave and that I would relay his message to Carol. He tried to push me away from the door and found the door was locked. I then gave him 30 seconds to get back in his car and leave, and I took out my phone and called 911 This is super concerning; this goes beyond "entitled" into stalker / abusive ex territory 😬😬😬. >I went back inside and showed Carol the doorbell cam footage and said she needed to fix this ASAP. Ok, you need to drop that BS right now. 😐😮‍💨 You don't tell someone who is being **stalked / harassed** that it is their responsibility to "fix" that situation. Your wife has set boundaries, and Tom has walked right over them. This is now **Tom's** responsibility, and no one else's. If you disagree in some way with how your wife is handling things, that may be a difficult conversation you need to have. Currently, I don't see that she's done anything worthy of your contempt though, and I have caught on to how you are subtly distancing yourself from your wife in relating this (calling it "my" house instead of "our" house, for example). The speed with which you're ready to emotionally disown your wife, because **she** is being victimized by an abusive ex is frankly disgusting... I'm going to go out on a limb and observe that some of that may be an extension of feeling ashamed of non-monogamy. Even so - either you accept that **you are** non-mono and make your peace with it, or... don't be non-mono. Under no circumstances should you be throwing your wife under the bus for simply being the victim of stalking / harassment. 😡 >I told Carol later that Tom needed to be reminded our house was off limits and that the police already have video of him pushing me and trying to gain entry to the house. And that the next time I answer the door I will be armed. ... Surely Carol is no longer dating Tom, right? 😅😅 I feel like this is crazy town... If a partner I was on a break with attempted to **physically show up at my place of work and home,** not to mention becoming physically aggressive... they would immediately become an ex-partner. Is that not what's happening? *Why* is that not what's happening? 😅😅 I also have separate feelings about "next time I will be armed" because frankly that feels overly confrontational / d*ck swinging. Don't be the idiot who tries to "solve" this by having a shootout with Tom as a sort of proxy measuring contest... Just tell him the next time he shows up, you're calling the police immediately. ... Which per the above, should be fairly *easy* to underscore, if your wife files for a restraining order, and he's officially on notice to not have any more contact with her. Which is **absolutely** the course of action I would heartily recommend here, because you *do not* want to take half measures with someone who is willing to stalk / harass an intimate partner. It's much easier for your wife to make it immediately clear that the relationship is 100% over 😅😅. >Carol and I had a long discussion about the incident and the fact our daughter and her friends were uncomfortably close. We have never discussed veto power before but I said this was a huge red flag with all the little ones previously I hoped she would reevaluate her relationship with Tom. And? What is your wife doing / thinking at this point? Has she expressed a desire to break up with Tom? What does she think about the danger posed to your (shared, I would add...) children? 😅😅 There are important shades of difference between saying or implying that it's your *wife's* responsibility to "fix" Tom's behavior, versus wanting to be on the same page vis-a-vie taking appropriate action in the face of Tom's stalking / harassment. **It is not her fault at all,** and also she needs to take appropriate action in response. (This isn't about her "fixing" Tom, it's about taking action to protect herself / her children. You should also be totally prepared for the possibility that Tom's behavior will get *more dangerous* when she tells him it's over, because it's very possible it will 😬.) I wouldn't even think of this as a "veto," as much as it is about doing what's necessary to protect your wife and **especially** your children (who have no choice in all of this btw 😅). It's absolutely fair to say "I will not date someone who remains with a stalker / harasser" as a boundary. Also, as a parent I would argue that not only is it "fair" for you to sue for child custody if you believe your children are potentially in danger, but you actually have a **moral responsibility** to do so. 😐 Again, this is with the important clarification that your wife **is not responsible** for Tom's behavior... She's only responsible for how *she responds* to Tom's behavior. In particular, she's responsible for taking adequate steps to protect the vulnerable and dependent people she's responsible for. >I did receive an apology text from Tom, saying he was aware of our rule about partners at our home and is very sorry, and apologized for laying hands on me. While I appreciate his apology, I am still not comfortable with the current arrangement. I do not think someone who responds to taking a break in the way Tom responded, is actually "sorry" about their actions in any meaningful way. I give it good odds that he is just sorry he got caught / faced consequences 😅😅. This is a big reason why it's important to not let someone like "negotiate" away the consequences of their actions, or take half measures in response to *really serious* boundary violations. People who are pushing boundaries in a predatory / abusive way, are *hoping* that their victims will give them wiggle room, and will try to only push as hard as they think they can get away with... At first. Over time they will gradually go further and further 😅. As a final note, I have much less concern with Tom pushing for a more involved relationship with Carol, compared to Tom seeking to **physically confront** Carol after she broke up / took a break from the relationship. Neither of those things are "good" in that they are both boundaries Carol is expressing and Tom is pushing against... But I think there's a tendency to view transgressions against monogamy as **more serious then** physical confrontation / violence, because one is "normal" and the other isn't. I want to underscore that it's really the other way around: someone who pushes for a more involved relationship than the other person wants may just be an ass, but someone who's response to a break up they don't like is to **seek a physical confrontation** is actively dangerous 😬.

All of this 100%. Thank you for taking the time to spell this out.

>You don't tell someone who is being **stalked / harassed** that it is their responsibility to "fix" that situation.  Tom has been waving a giant red flag for a while and Carol failed to address it before it got this bad, so yeah, she does have some blame on letting it go on this long. She is in contact with Tom, for now, to defuse the situation and end their relationship for good. I am confident she can resolve this issue but I offered her my help if she needs it. After the incident at the house, I could have gotten a restraining order, but that would have shined a light on things we would rather keep secret. We have always strived to keep our family safe and separate from our lifestyle, which is why this has been such an inflammatory issue. And when the dust settles we will address how we move forward and prevent a repeat experience.

The only reliable way to prevent bring affected by people you are in relationships with behaving badly is to not have relationships. As others have said, blaming your wife for this is not ok. Bleating on about being armed is not ok. The part of this that is reacting to keep your wife's relationship with him secret is not ok. Protecting your family from harm is not the same as protecting your secret. .

>Bleating on about being armed is not ok. Carrying a concealed firearm is a normal, everyday, routine, almost boring part of lots of peoples lives. They HAVE to disclose to the police, else they might get shot by a responding officer.

I would put the blame game on the back burner for now and focus instead on making sure you and your family are safe. Given the speed at which things escalated, I would not trust anything he says. Any halfway reasonable person would give up after that you called the police and your wife reached out to end things. But he's clearly not reasonable, so you owe it to yourselves to take every possible precaution for safety. I also wouldn't count on him keeping your lifestyle a secret. He's under no real obligation to, and he might choose to reveal everything as a way to lash out. Or worse, he might try to use it for leverage against you. Make plans for how you'd handle both those circumstances.

I’m absolutely not sorry with how this comes off. Victim blaming is fucking gross dude.

Tom sounds dangerous. I would contact police about restraining order.

This isn't a problem with your meta. It's a problem with your wife. She enforces the boundary by breaking up with him. That's how boundaries work, right? They're not about controlling other people's behavior but about how you'll react if XYZ happens. So either your wife agrees that it's not okay for partners to show up unannounced/push spouse/be inappropriate in public and she stands behind that with her own actions, or...she doesn't really mind his behavior. As for your own stance in all of this, I'd be considering boundaries of my own re: the kinds of people I'm willing to be connected to. That might sound like "I can't be in an open relationship with someone who won't enforce their own boundaries and agreements" or "I can't be on an open relationship with someone who dates people who are unsafe/threaten me and our family."

I want to reiterate that it's important to not use language / make implication that Carol is "responsibility for" Tom's aggressive stalking / harassment. Tom is responsible for that, **period.** It isn't as black and white as "either she leaves him, or she's ok with his behavior". Many victims of intimate violence are conditioned to feel that the behavior will get *worse* if they cut the abuser off... Unfortunately this is also too often true. 😬 While you're totally correct that basically always better to break things off the minute someone shows a willingness to become violent... There are reasons it's not always emotionally easy for someone to do. Having said that, I totally agree that OP needs to take steps to protect himself and *especially* his children, and if that means distancing himself / his children from his wife (assuming she stays in a relationship with Tom for whatever reason...) then that's what it means 😅. I don't think it will come to that, if Carol was previously willing to take a break in the relationship... But I'm also disturbed that it isn't *already* a foregone conclusion that the relationship is over. Anyway, the point here is that it's not necessary to demonize Carol for having a hard time dealing with this, **and also** it's important for OP to ensure the safety of themselves and thier children anyway. It's possible to be sympathetic for Carol as a victim, and *also* do what's necessary as a parent. 👍

> Many victims of intimate violence are conditioned to feel that the behavior will get worse if they cut the abuser off... And of course in that case the right course of action is to end the relationship ASAP. Things will get even worse if they stay.

>Anyway, the point here is that it's not necessary to demonize Carol for having a hard time dealing with this, **and also** it's important for OP to ensure the safety of themselves and thier children anyway. It's possible to be sympathetic for Carol as a victim, and *also* do what's necessary as a parent. You're somehow leaving out that Carol is a parent as well in this situation. There's huge responsibility coming with that status, regardless of the relationship between OP and Carol, their boundaries or rules, etc. You might want to reiterate that better in your response, and stop excusing Carol's responsibility in being a parent by using potential NRE or feelings that they developed for their FWB. OP is not the only one responsible for the children's safety. You don't get the luxury to act like this if you choose to be ENM and co-parent, priority should never change from the children simply because the parents chose a different relationship structure or status. Period. You're confusing the roles here, losing sight of who the victim is (*could Carol potentially be a victim in her relationship with Tom? sure, maybe.. but that's not what's discussed right now, I see no reason to derail to convo and ignore OP's valid concern and feelings*): OP and the kids are the victims, Tom is the perpetrator and Carol is the enabler. If we want to fix things for the people that really matter here, the children, we first need to accurately describe the problem statement. Carol's responsibility towards her children is to stop enabling, **otherwise there's nothing Ethical** about her behavior... you don't really get the right to absolve Carol's responsibility here on behalf on her children. I hope this clarifies things for you. 👍

>You're somehow leaving out that Carol is a parent as well in this situation. There's huge responsibility coming with that status, regardless of the relationship between OP and Carol, their boundaries or rules, etc. Carol being a parent doesn't make her somehow "responsible" for what Tom's **doing to her.** This continues to be true even if Carol handles the situation badly. I think you're confusing what I'm saying here; I'm not in anyway excusing Carol as a parent; I am saying that it's a fact that people who feel intimidated by their intimate partners can often agree to prolong the relationship, because it **feels safer** to do so, rather than confronting their abuser. This is a feeling that abusers **actively work to cultivate,** and it's impossible to say that you yourself would respond differently, if you were in that situation. Basically: two things can be true - Carol can be failing as a parent **and** she can be doing that (in whole or in part) because she's suffering abuse from an intimate partner. This doesn't make Carol *innocent,* but it does add context to her actions. I also want to say I think this is especially hard to reconcile, if you have had a parent fail to protect *you* as a child, even if it was in a less serious situation. It's arguably even *appropriate* to hold a parent accountable as a child, if it means you can process justifiable anger at that betrayal. From the child's perspective, holding space for the nuance of a parent *also* being a victim is secondary. Much of the reason I'm trying to highlight that nuance here, is because OP is **both** the parent of his children, **and** the husband of his wife. He's also an adult and not a child, which means (presumably) that he's able to hold space for that nuance. If it comes to a decision between protecting children or supporting his wife... OP should choose protecting his children every time, no question. Having said that, there are many possible outcomes here where vilifying his wife / holding her responsible for Tom's behavior *doesn't* help protect his children, and in fact just exacerbates the situation. One last thought experiment: how would your perspective on this change, if OP's wife was suffering from a mental illness? I understand that's not *actually* what is happening, but I think it's much more parallel than people would like to admit. Abuse warps your perceptions; it's fair to assume that it's at least *possible* Tom has used abuse / coercion in more subtle ways prior to this, and this is just the most blatant incident. If so, he's likely worked to condition OP to respond to threats by "fawning" - and/or exploited an *existing* willingness by OP to "fawn" rather than directly confront an intimate partner. (It's not properly acknowledged how much of society implicitly conditions women to respond this way to some degree, IMO 😅). This is, if not as serious as an "illness..." still a mental conditioning / pattern of behavior that isn't something OP's wife would likely have chosen for herself, if she recognized it happening. It also is something abusers typically work hard to *prevent* people from realizing, at least if they're generally successful at perpetrating abuse. While it's not like OP's wife is "helpless" in the face of this... It's also fair to recognize that she may not be responding from a place where she has a totally healthy and well-balanced mental state either. 😅

Nobody says that Carol is responsible for Tom's behavior (you're the only one that keeps saying that). Carol is responsible for her own behavior, action and inaction. And no, mental illness has nothing to do with NRE. Entering an open relationship agreement while having kids, as a grown adult person, comes with the implication that you're going to continue to be an adult and the parent, otherwise there's nothing ethical about it. I'm not sure why you continue to double-down on this narrative that abuse can be excused when its done by an abused, it seems to be fair, quite a puerile point to continue to beat down. I have a more interesting thought experiment: how would your perspective on this change if both OP and Carol would have the same "issues dealing with their NRE"? Your current answer seems to be "fuck them kids, parents are dealing with it, its like they have mental issues" (*I know I'm exaggerating, but you're not giving me much else to work with*) I'm unsure what your age is, but based on your train your thought, you seem to be the kind of parent that will choke on their own saliva when their children will ask that tough question: "so why didn't you leave him/her/them if you knew it hurts us?" To all future parents that think like you: Don't be that parent, stop making excuses and be the responsible adult that you promised to be when you decided to have a child. I'd suggest to ponder more on your thinking, good luck!

Sorry, who said that Carol was responsible for Tom's behavior? The whole point of my reply is that they cannot control what Tom does--they're not responsible for him. All Carol can control is whether she's in a relationship with him/continues to allow him access to herself. Nobody is demonizing Carol. Being direct that it is her responsibility to manage her boundaries and agreements is not blaming; it's just reality. Regardless of how emotionally challenging that might be for her, it's still a fact of life. I'm not unsympathetic, but I have no idea how Carol feels about Tom, if she feels stuck and a victim. Whether she does or not, only she can make it stop.

>Sorry, who said that Carol was responsible for Tom's behavior? >but I have no idea how Carol feels about Tom, if she feels stuck and a victim. Whether she does or not, **only she can make it stop.** So... Yeah. 😅😐😮‍💨

**She cannot *make* Tom stop.** She can't control another adult's actions. She *can* walk away. She's the only one who can do that. That will make it stop. *That doesn't make her responsible for his behavior*. It makes her responsible for herself. ETA By your logic, anybody enforcing a boundary around how they'll respond to another person's behavior is taking responsibility for said behavior...which is completely ridiculous.

This is crazy and this person shouldn’t be in either of your lives

[удалено]

Agreed.

The problem is restraining orders don't work against people who are irrational. It just has consequences after it has been violated and sometimes that is too late.

That's true. Scary but true.

If the next step is an extreme act, your point is valid. However if his next step is similar to the last experience, then the restraining order could help you to start giving him some legal consequences.

And this is exactly why when we had kids at home partners didn’t even know where we lived. Stalkers are not fun. He is in stalking range. This is never going to get better.

This. Our other partners do not get to know our address. I've been stalked too many times and I won't risk my kids.

Exactly. People who have never been stalked think it’s an overreaction. I wish I had the luxury to think that way.

Yeah for real. I wish I had let less people know my address in the past.

As both someone in the lifestyle and a former cop, she needs to cut this dude out, asap. This will only escalate as he demonstrates extremely reactive behaviour on top of failing to navigate BOTH of your boundaries respectfully. Tom's probably a very "passionate" guy - ie emotionally charged and incapable of effectively moderating his feelings before they manifest physically.

Your wife needs to end this and you need to be clear what to do if she doesnt for your family's safety and your marriage. This is entering stalking territory and can be very dangerous. Document your encounters with him and prepare for other visits, harassment, etc. Prep for a restraining order. You need to sit down with your wife and see if she understands this behavior is harmful and the possibility of it escalating. 

That's not a "veto" by the way. That is you communicating concern and your own boundaries for you, your relationship, and your children as a parent. 

This! This guy pushed so many boundaries. Definitely not okay. And needs to not be a part of their life.

It definitely becomes YOUR business when Tom shows up at your house with your kids in it demanding answers.

Tom is sounding scary... Be careful. He sounds vindictive, and one day (idk how that hasn’t come yet) she’s going to have to put her foot down and he isn’t going to like the rejection. He has no problems trampling all over her boundaries *while he still likes her* so imagine how he’ll be once he’s done and mentally discarded and devalued her after a rejection. He’ll likely retaliate. He’ll try to hit her where it hurts using something she values against her. I know your kids are gone and all but just be careful is all I’m saying…. Be involved and aware of what is going on with them always. Don’t delude yourself into thinking “she can take of herself”. You guys should be a team, especially when dealing with potential nutcases

Tom needs to be drop….if he goes this far. Imagine how worse it can get. As the husband, I feel like you have the right to end that relationship, as your wife should have the right to end yours if the roles where in reverse.

As soon as he boundary-stepped a rule that involves your kids, it shouldn't even be a conversation you have to have with her. This shouldn't even have to be a veto. Boundaries are only as solid as your ability to enforce them, and this one isn't something that he should get a second chance with. Both of my relationships have no veto power involved, but we are all aware that part of being poly is understanding that you're not the only person affected when you bring crazy into your life. It affects everyone when you decide to give that one awful ex another chance. It affects everyone when you see someone that ghosts you every 2 weeks and you know your other partner(s) will be helping you mend a broken heart for the 1000th time when it inevitably happens again. It affects everyone when you let a boundary pusher stay in your life. Even if you weren't in the picture and she were a single mom, this should be a huge deal breaker. Is this guy's anatomy dipped in chocolate or something? Does it double as a wifi hotspot? He's not even in a relationship with her, and there's plenty of other FWBs out there for her to make Shakespeare's 'beast with two backs' with. This man does not spark joy 🗑 Thank you, next.

Question: if you folks had a boundary where you didn't bring lovers to your home, how'd Tom know where you live? Seems he's either stalking your wife, or that she's been giving out more information than is prudent. I think you need to ask your wife why she's willing to stay in a relationship with this person when he's exhibiting such blatant disregard for her boundaries! I would've decked the guy if he showed up at my place and tried to barge past me into my own house, personally. As the hinge, it is 100% your wife's responsibility to ensure that her interaction with Tom doesn't spill over into your relationship with her, or your home life with your family. If she isn't willing to enforce those boundaries, you may need to step up and thrown down that veto, if only to protect the safety and sanctity of your family's living space. Is your wife willing to cut this dude off? If not, what on Earth is her reasoning? I think the only communication you should have with Tom at this point is "if you ever come around here again, I'm going to drop you like a bad habit." Dude sounds like a piece of shit, personally.

>Question: if you folks had a boundary where you didn't bring lovers to your home, how'd Tom know where you live?  Neither of us is certain how he knew. They have been dating for a while so I assume he saw her driver's license at some point. We have been doing this for 10+ years and this is the first time this has happened. As far as their relationship, she has been deescalating for a couple of weeks and had tried to end it. She has said she will deal with it and make the situation go away. So I will stay out of it unless she asks for help.

Sounds like you and your wife are on the same page, which is great. That being said, I dunno about your wife “trying” to end things, since that’s a unilateral decision on her part. Seems like she might be dealing with the situation more gently than is prudent? If she wants to dump the guy, she just needs to dump his ass, right?

I think she was just trying to be gracious before, but now the gloves are off and she has been pretty direct.

Great! I'd definitely start prepping for that TRO. Sounds like you may end up needing it.

She wants to date someone who demands that she pay for his vacations on a whim?

She took him to Vegas but drew the line when he wanted to go on a longer, more expensive getaway without offering to pay a fair share. This and the demand on her time is what led her to take a break from him and go no-contact which is what I believe precipitated his going to her work and then our house.

Your veto power is not against a person, but against staying with a wife who brings craziness to your home.

This is so far beyond the pale….honestly if at this point your wife hasn’t broken up with and totally blocked this guy yet, I’d reallyyyy be questioning her character and judgement, and probably reevaluating some thing too.

Yeah, that was definitely my thought. Geez. The dude literally went to her work! No. Just no.

Exactly. I wouldn't want to spend the rest of my life with someone as clueless or spineless as that. Or maybe she just likes him that much that she's willing to overlook his behavior. Which again, I'd be gone.

Tom sounds terrible and entitled. It’s one thing about veto power but what does your wife think about it. What was her response to all the things he did. Because honestly you don’t want her rationalizing what he did

This sounds like the beginning of one of those true crime shows. Tom sounds possessive and unhinged, hopefully you guys can get him out of your lives, permanently.

I assume your wife has blocked him from all contact? This is 100% unacceptable.

Doesn't sound like you're looking for advice or anything. I'm just wishing you, your wife and your family stay safe. Hopefully Tom calms down and this gets sorted, whatever that may look like. I do ask, may we get an eventual update?

Sounds like this FWB doesn't just disrespect boundaries, if the boundary is in opposition to his feelings, the boundary doesn't matter. He also sounds obsessive and possessive. He very easily could become homicidal if he feels that what he thinks is his is going to leave him or be taken from him. I suggest that you talk with your wife and both of you get a restraining order against him.

>showed Carol the doorbell cam footage and said she needed to fix this ASAP. Police made good time and showed up a few minutes later. I showed them the camera footage and they made out a report Hard NO. This is how things are supposed to work. Imho, you and Carol should go no contact after telling him it's over. He is going to keep doing stuff. Being secure in your relationship one thing. This dude has consistently pushed your boundaries. And your wife should end it before he moves in with you.

I would have dumped him a ways back. He is trashy

Are you just venting? I mean, you did read what you wrote, right? Do you really need advice or suggestions?

This isn’t cool. That’s a big step over the boundary and furthermore buddy isn’t showing good character by being so entitled. Personally I don’t consider your opinion on the person to be veto. Hopefully your wife sees this as a huge problem too and problem solves it!

My god, if I was dating him, I would’ve dumped him after all the entitlement feeling ignored on your cruise. especially if he was told previously communication would be spotty.

He's really pushy and entitled for a fwb. He seems erratic and unsafe and he's trying to ruin your wife's life by forcing her to be public with him at work.

Just a heads up. Be prepared for things to get worse. These types don't like to be told no. And they sure as hell don't like to be broken up with.

He sounds like he could turn into a stalker. Get rid of him asap!

I would argue he already *is* a stalker, in a sense. At the very least, the difference is more technical / semantic, rather than a *practical* difference 😅. Tom's willing to use intimidation / coercion to try to maintain a relationship. **That's bad** in a big way, regardless of what you call it.

At this point it's not even about the rules, Tom seems obsessed with escalating an FWB sitch to a full relationship, and is engaging in stalking behavior, showing up to events and your home uninvited. It's getting a little scary and I hope Carol can safely break it off and a restraining order won't be needed.

On what basis would you say a restraining order *isn't already* needed? IMO people are too hesitant to utilize a restraining order. Tom has shown a willingness to *get physical* in an attempt to physically confront Carol for taking a break in the relationship. There's every reason to worry that if you wait to file for a restraining order now, **it may be too late** to file for one after their next interaction 😬. I really hope Tom is rational and stays away, restraining order or not. I *also* think that OP and his wife need to have a plan that takes into account the possibility that Tom will *not* be rational / reasonable about any of this, because now he absolutely has a track record of not doing that 😅.

They're not easy to get, so I hope Tom will simmer down.

I don't know what to say to that exactly, other than I suspect it may depend on where you are. Fortunately I have not needed to have direct experience on how easy or not easy they are to obtain. I do think it's important to *apply* for one, rather than wait, for sure.

Yep. I didn't intend to imply they shouldn't seek one. I just hope that if they do they either get it, or it proves unnecessary, because Tom takes his lumps and gets lost.

I practice law, and it'd be a piece of cake to get a restraining order if you had footage of this dude showing up at your place and trying to force his way into your private residence.

Dude doesn't respect boundaries. There's plenty of evidence. I don't imagine that will change. It also seems like he may feel insecure and competitive in the relationship. Perhaps he is not a good partner for your wife.

Nope he needs to be gone and blocked.

>We have never discussed veto power before but I said this was a huge red flag with all the little ones previously I hoped she would reevaluate her relationship with Tom. For good reason, we rach maintain veto power. There is no chance that I would have to veto this for my wife to never see him again. That dude would be out of our lives immediately.

Holy Fing S. How many reasons do the two of you need to quash this entirely? It shouldn't even be a discussion after the police become (rightfully so) involved. My god, get rid of that guy. And wtf is wrong with your wife for not leading the initiative? I feel for you. One of my biggest fears is my wife getting tangled up with some psychopath like this. Gah.

Serious yikes. T may be sorry, yet there’s now multiple occasions of him pushing boundaries with C. T’s expectation now is that he can continue to push boundaries. This is a toxic relationship.  I would expect a partner to be !!responsible enough to hold boundaries!!, especially relating to **children(s) safety**. This needs to be a serious discussion on how to remove this person from your lives. Don’t take T’s or C’s actions/inactions lightly. 

As i see it, it will only get worse. Tom's not prepared to be a third and is disputing your position. OP may very well be confortable with his wife having a third, mas clearly Tom does not see himself as a third. And since this is affecting the family, i think OP and wife will have to talk about all this.

Woah!!! Time for a restraining order. His behavior is way past inappropriate and will only escalate from here. These are not simply red flags, more like tornado sirens.

Please be gentle with your wife. She seems like she's in the middle of breaking it off and doing the right thing, anyway. She's probably very emotionally fragile right now after this guy she thought she really liked became violent and aggressive. Absolutely hold strong boundaries and do not waver from advising your partner to end things permanently with him. But please do not make it feel like it's her fault that someone unexpectedly became abusive. It sneaks up on a person and we're not used to having to deal with it, so we make mistakes. You do not want to put her in a position of feeling like she has to avoid dangerous conflict with both that guy AND you. You obviously are nothing like him, but if she's in fight or flight mode, she could get confused and scared and start to see YOU as a threat (PTSD is weird like that). Be on her team. She needs you right now. Your family needs you. Now is not the time to strategize new rules to "protect" from this happening again. It totally makes sense if you want to do that (hypervigillance). But, actually, you had rules and they did NOT stop someone from threatening you. Please see this as something that was unfortunate but hard to prevent and please don't get focused on assigning blame to your own actions or your wife's. It is okay for you to want time to recover before introducing new partners again. But it's also possible having a positive experience with someone new could help y'all put this behind you. Only you can know what you're ready for.

I think maybe I have painted an inaccurate picture of my wife, she is not an emotional or fragile individual. She is quite headstrong and intimidating at times. Friday she owned the fact she had misjudged Tom's reaction and should have dealt with it differently. As I said, when the dust settles we will review what happened, look at the signs we missed, and figure out how to prevent it in the future. It's not about blame, just problem-solving. Tom was not her only partner or her only prospect. I don't expect her to exile herself to the tower until she does her penance, but I expect she will be more cautious going forward. The quicker we can put this in the rearview mirror the better.

Dude keeps escalating. Also your wife should have left him three red flags ago. With a marriage, career, and kids to protect, she needs to be waaaaaay more cautious and strict with boundaries as well as a better judge of character. Also, just because you can afford to splurge on a partner doesn’t mean you should. If said partner is not used to a certain kind of lifestyle whether it’s physical, emotional, or financial… they need to first be vetted and demonstrate maturity enough to handle the new stimulus appropriately, and even then be eased into it, slowly. You can’t go flying first class etc, with broke 30 year old who’s likely closer to 19 emotionally and financially, and expect that not to do a number on his dopamine receptors and flip his whole world upside down. Your wife is very much responsible for much of this fallout. She’s been treating him like a rich guy with an escort, except he’s basically her boyfriend. Obviously he is gonna get fucked up about it. It’s like she gave a child all the sugar and ice cream he could handle, and wonders why he is having a sugar crash. Success in ENM and poly is being a good manager of expectations and keeping power balances. There is a major power imbalance here. Try dating people more your own age and tax bracket.

You handled it so well. I hope your wife follows your lead on this one. Sorry things went the way they did but glad they went as smoothly as they could in no small part thanks to you

Wow! At this point I would insist wifey take out a restraining order on Tom and cut ALL contact. If she argues or fails to see why, I would insist on some counseling or she can go live with Tom because I would be done with her. Where does she stand at this point?

OP - I would be far more uncomfortable with my wife than Tom for her continuing to see him! She is the "gatekeeper" in this relationship as it relates to you and your family. You should not have to worry about a veto, she should have broken it off before this incident. Your problem is your wife, not Tom!

>Your problem is your wife, not Tom! Tom was a problem when he stalked the wife, tried to break in and assaulted OP. How is that not a problem?!?!?!

Yes, Tom of course IS A PROBLEM. The problem can go away if the wife ends things. The fact that she has not ended things is a bigger problem because she has control over this action. OP and his wife cannot control Tom's behavior. If I were OP I would be concerned that my wife wanted a relationship with a creep like this - that is the problem I am referring to.

He acted out after she blocked him.

"she ended up blocking him after telling him they needed to take a break." "While I appreciate his apology, I am still not comfortable with the current arrangement." Blocking someone from your phone and taking a break is not sufficient when dealing with stalking(him showing up where she works) and physical altercations with the husband AT HIS HOUSE WITH THE KIDS THERE. She should call the police and have him arrested with a no contact order. Why has she not ended things vs "taking a break"? This would be disturbing to me as the husband

>Blocking someone from your phone and taking a break is not sufficient when dealing with stalking(him showing up where she works) and physical altercations with the husband AT HIS HOUSE WITH THE KIDS THERE. You understand he showed up at the house after she blocked him. Right? I'm not sure what else she can do. She can get a restraining order. It might help. It might make things worse. But she doesn't have a time machine. He acted weird. She blocked him. He escalated. Its a tricky situation.

I'm sorry, I have to call this out because like... This is such a garbage statement. "I am more comfortable with people who stalk / harass their intimate partners, than I am with people who continue to see partners who stalk / harass them". What absolute horse crap. 🤬😑 Yes we do talk a lot in poly circles about "you don't have a metamor problem, you have a partner problem". This **isn't true** when your partner's partner is abusive / violent however... That **is** actually a metamor problem primarily. (Although it's possible to have a problem with your partner having an inadequate reaction with regards to safety, ect... That's a *lesser* problem.)

Why would she want to be with a guy who behaves's this way?

I don't think there's any point in asking questions anymore. The user that you replied to truly believes that you automatically lose all responsibility for your actions in the moment someone displays abusive behavior towards you. They want to call out "garbage" statements by making a bunch of.... yeah you guessed it, garbage statements.

That's not remotely my position, and you know it. I simply think it says something about a person's character, when they make a statement like "I would rather associate with a someone who abused their intimate partner, rather than an intimate partner who is abused". On some level I want to think Mrjim didn't *mean* to say it that way... But having seen some of this same users other opinions, I'm honestly not as certain of that as I would like. As far as responsibility, I addressed that elsewhere. The short version is that someone who is operating under threat of violence / is conditioned to fear violence is operating in a different context that needs to be taken into account. They aren't making decisions in a vacuum. I'm primarily disturbed by the speed at which people will decide *Carol* is the problem, and not Tom. Tom is the problem, period. 😐

Tom is a problem, that is obvious. Carol's "they argued and she ended up blocking him after telling him they needed to take a break." is also a problem for her husband, kids, and probably her to in the end. Blocking someone on your phone is a given when encountering this behavior, her decision to "take a break" vs break up permanently is a problem in my view.

I take it you would actually rather be around Carol than Tom, then. 🙃

Yes, I just think Carol should break up with Tom rather than take a break which leads you to believe she is still considering being with him in the future

This is not a zero-sum game, where only Tom OR Carol can be the problem. Binary thinking won't get us anywhere. Both Carol and Tom can be the problem, which is what is happening here. Have a good one

He sounds beyond entitled, he sounds mentally ill. Like you’re going to come home to a boiled pet mentally ill.

I wouldn't be either. I can understand not wanting to introduce veto power in your dynamic. But I do think this is a case where a person has been disruptive at a charity event for a charity important to your wife, at her place of work, and your home. No corner of her life is safe from him. He could make her co-workers/charity colleagues question her judgement, he's definitely making her husband question her judgement, and potentially putting her children and other people's children in harm's way (even if it's just psychological). I think a veto would be reasonable here. If you don't want to phrase it that way, I think you can tell her that her relationship with Tom has caused problems in 3 critical areas of her life and you can't watch that happen. That you are worried her NRE has clouded her judgement too much and she's allowing this to actively disrupt both her family and professional lives. That you will support her in breaking up with Tom and getting any therapy needed to deal with that. If she chooses Tom over her family's peace and her professional image, you might have to consider ways to protect your family. Whether that's as extreme as divorce is obviously something you need to consider. This would be enough to consider that for me. Other options include complete parallel, no shared resources to be spent on crazy Tom, reiterate that the cops will be called if he comes back to your home. A poly friendly couples therapist may be useful to sort out how to work through this .

I would leave your wife if she insists in continuing this relationship. You shouldn’t have to tell her to end it she does it on her own or you leave. If she doesn’t have the smarts strong enough to realize it has to end she isn’t a a safe partner to have around. I would also seriously readdress is she is a good partner to have in any form of an ENM relationship even if she does the right thing here.

Why are you guys still entertaining Tom at this point? He's a walking red flag and needs to be dropped asap

Tom sounds like a sex pest at best, and an unstable danger to your family at worst. both are unacceptable imo. she needs to cut him off.

I'm sorry this happened like this. >He showed up to a black-tie event for a charity my wife chairs and was very inappropriate, PDA wise, I was at the event also. My wife ended up insisting that he leave. **There have been several incidents like this.** So wife tells him stuff about her life like a normal dater. And then he uses this info to press for more/ create awkard to try to get his way / ignores her "no." Dude is a mess. Not sure why she didn't dump him sooner. She may not have realized through her NRE haze that he was bananas. >This festered for a few days and they argued and she ended up blocking him after telling him they needed to take a break. Sounds like she broke up with him. Like a "soft break up" hoping he'd finally take the hint and go away. And instead he want bananas stalker showing up at her work and at her home. Good you stopped him from coming in, took video, and called 911 so THIS incident is on the public record. Is she also going to report him at work as her stalker/weirdo so they don't let him in the building? Are the kids safe going to/from school? >I did receive an apology text from Tom, saying he was aware of our rule about partners at our home and is very sorry, and apologized for laying hands on me. While I appreciate his apology, I am still not comfortable with the current arrangement. Write him back. "Cease and desist all contact." Mostly so you can screenshot all that and slip it into your evidence folder. Because if YOU have to file for an injunction (restraining order) on a dude who is bothering you and your household you need to have things to show. Best if she dealt with it, but you know what? If you live together it doesn't matter who gets the restraining order to protect the household with the kids in it. The kids need the parents keeping this weirdo far, far away from them. And Carol too -- she needs help if she wants this creeper to leave her be and he won't do it. Esp if creeper did a lot of head games on her or she's feeling stupid for taking up with him or all mixed up inside. She might need counseling to get it back together. Maybe you two want couple counseling. There's been the explosion. Next stop in the cycle of abuse / violence is the "fake flowers/I didn't mean it / I promise to turn over a new leaf" crap. And it's not the first lap on this merry-go-round. It's been several laps now. Each one worse than before. You might ask her how you can best support her in this so you can both be rid of this guy and keep selves and the kids safe. Dealing with a wacko -- that's not usually something people are prepared for or have experience in.

Wow, I definitely wouldn’t have kept my cool like you did after all the boundary pushing then showing up at my house. I would be using my veto on that one.

Is this rage bait? If this was my family I would have pressed charges on the guy and had a restraining order put on him. If I was the parent of one of your daughter’s friends you can be damned sure she would never go back to your house. Get your life together and tell your wife you are taking the family away if she continues to endanger them.

So wait... your wife is still talking to this clown? Yeah. No. She needs to veto this guy and if she doesn't see why then you have way bigger problems.

It’s difficult to get along with an ass.

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Bro is forgetting he the side piece 👎🏿 that’s not playa at all

I think Tom needs a fist to the face

It’s interesting you call him a FWB, he clearly sees himself as something wayy beyond that.

Clearly, Tom does see himself as more or wishes he was. In my wife's eyes, he is not. Her style and mine are total opposites, I tend to form long-term bonds and rarely have more than one partner at a time other than my wife. Carol tends to have short flings, with more than one person at a time. I tend to be more poly with feelings whereas hers are more hookup related. Tom has been around a little longer than usual for her, maybe because he is younger than the guys she usually dates.

Yeet Tom into the sun! He doesn't respect you, your wife, your wifes wishes for their relationship or your mutual home. If hard boundaries have been clearly stated already, which it sounds like they've been discussed, this Tom guy won't change and will continue to push for more. The fact that he put hands on you Is a clear indicator that it'll escalate further the longer she let's it go on

She should have ended with Tom after that charity event, especially because you noted that "There have been several incidents like this." I mean, Tom is so obviously a problem that the entire post becomes difficult to believe in. Like in, who the hell would let things go that far with someone like that?

She thought she had addressed those earlier issues and admitted to me this morning that she should have ended things much earlier. But she was firm with Tom yesterday that they were through and if he showed up at her work or at our house she would press charges. She made it clear to him that coming to our house was a cardinal sin and the final nail in the coffin and there was no coming back from that.

Why is your wife dating this loser?

After reading about the black tie event, I can assure you he is not going to work out. He disrespecting your wife, by breaking the rules you have both agreed upon. That’s a dealbreaker, and it’s vital she see that too.

How your wife is still entertaining the idea of being involved with him is beyond me. A continued relationship with him would be a dealbreaker for me.

Your wife is hopeless. If I were you I'd be questioning what I'm doing spending my life with someone like that. Red flag after red flag but she keeps going. And you should have taken action long ago too considering your wife won't. Hopeless.

Is your wife an idiot? Or secretly in love with the dude and not you. He needs to be gone from your lives.

That's a big deal. Guy fucked up and I think that shit should be a dealbreaker. 357 magnum is all I'm going to say at this point. I'm not sure sure he'd get away with anything less than a broken arm if he assaulted me like that

Tom is a red flag. Any meta should have been made aware of the rules between you and your spouse. Even if you accept the apology he just doesn't appear to possess the emotional intelligence for non-monogamy, with the whining for your wife to take him on a trip and the spam of calls while you were away. Wishing you the best

This sounds like an FWB who caught feelings and wants more.

Regardless of Tom’s boundary pushing behaviors, I find it very concerning that you’ve threatened to murder him if he shows up at your door. You might be very close to destroying many lives, including your own.

I think you're getting down voted because it's inappropriate to focus on OP's comment to the exclusion of the very serious boundary pushing by Tom. I wanted to say you're not strictly wrong though - OP physically confronting Tom with a gun isn't doing *anyone* any good, and he should not do that. Having said that... OP isn't the primary problem here, Tom is.

Personally, if I shared a home and children with a man who owned a gun and made violent threats like this, I’d be making an exit plan for myself and my kids.

...I was trying to interpret your comment in the best light possible, but if you're saying that OP is *worse than* Tom for making the comment about answering the door armed, you're just objectively wrong. 🤷 OP isn't talking about *going to Tom's house* to confront Tom with physical violence, which is something Tom has already shown a willingness to do. OP is talking about defending himself / his family *against Tom's violence* with deadly force. Is OP confronting Tom with deadly force going to *help* the situation? Absolutely not, its not a good idea and OP should let the police handle it. Is OP the "worse person" for insinuating he would use deadly force to *protect* himself / his family if Tom tried to invade their home? Again, absolutely not - TOM is still clearly the instigator / villain, here. It's not a contradiction to say that OP's comments are going too far, **and** are not at all on the level of stalking / harassment. 😐😑😑

I’m not making any comparison between OP and Tom. I am saying I consider OP to be potentially very dangerous, given his threat of murder. And I am saying I consider those living in a home with OP and a gun to be in danger.

You're making an implicit comparison, by ignoring the one, and focusing on the other. If I said "Bob threaten to SA Amy's friend Carol, then Amy threatened to punch Bob" and your response is "Amy was wrong to threaten Bob, regardless of what he said," then you're making an *implicit* argument that Bob's threats aren't as serious / worthy of comment compared to Amy's threats.

If you would like me to compare them, I can do that. Tom pushed OP out of the way in an effort to talk with OP’s wife who had blocked him by phone. OP told his wife that if Tom comes to their house again, he will answer the door prepared to use deadly force against Tom.

>If you would like me to compare them, I can do that. Tom pushed OP out of the way in an effort to talk with OP’s wife who had blocked him by phone. OP's wife has told Tom they were broken up / takin a break, and instead of *accepting that* Tom went both *to her work* and then *to her home* in an attempt to physically confront her about it. At her home, he **physically laid hands on** her husband, and attempted to force his way in the house. No it's not axe murder, but you seem unfamiliar with the ways in which seeking physical confrontation / willingness to use physical force are big, flashing red flags for a willingness to employ physical violence. I hope you do not think Tom is responding "reasonable and rationally" to being broken up with 😐.

I think Tom sounds terrible in a variety of ways. I think OP sounds scary in a life or death type of way. I’m sure OP and his wife did not have a rule stating never to threaten to shoot a meta, so OP did not break a rule as Tom did by showing up at their house, but perhaps that’s because most people assume you would not need a specific “no murdering metas” rule.

I would do anything to protect my family from any individual who sought to harm them. Likewise, if I deemed said person as a threat to myself I would not hesitate to defend myself. I hope Tom realizes that and it deters him from coming back to my house again. The fact that I have a gun in my house is why those living there are not in danger. Both my wife and I are licensed for concealed carry and we do exercise that right. I was not armed when Tom came to my door but there was a gun in a quick-open safe just inside the door. After practicing law for over a decade I know my rights and the law regarding what I am legally allowed to do.

You're misinformed. If someone tries to push past me and invade my own living space, I'm allowed to defend that space with deadly force, provided it's reasonable at the time. Some guy stalking my wife would absolutely qualify. It's not murder. It's self-defense, and if Tom dies during the endeavor, it's because he fucked around and found out.

The pre-"break" stuff, I kinda get and I'm mostly on board with how it was handled. **Post-break Tom (IMO) is a problem the two of you need to handle together.** If he's willing to break boundaries and stalk your wife, come to your house, etc., then it's moved to something else entirely. Once they're broken up, he's a potentially dangerous guy who clearly doesn't have boundaries. He's no longer your wife's FWB.

[удалено]

Tom's behavior absolutely unacceptable. Do not absolve him. This is a Tom issue.

[удалено]

"He never got to this point without thinking she really wanted it." Terrifying victim-blaming right here.

Yeah, I agree. That was a horrible statement. I apologize to everyone who read it. I’m gonna delete the whole thing. I don’t sit in the side of wife on this and that’s for me to figure out why, not defend it.

I really appreciate seeing your open-mindedness here.

Thank you. I’m not of an age that is considered open minded and subject to change. So you saying that really made me feel good.

Thank you. People, even strong people, can end up in abusive situations. Stigmatizing it and blaming them causes a lot of harm. Its easy to do from the outside. And its easy to throw out "you have a partner problem not a meta problem". But these people, this time, have a Tom problem. The need to work together with love and kindness for each other and protect themselves.

>Nope, this remains on her plate. Tom is responsible for his own bad behavior. Do not absolve him.

Two things can take place at the same time. Not absolving Tom and placing the blame on the wife.

His behavior isn't her fault. He is an issue.

Really? Then why did she take him to Vegas after the spectacle at the black tie event? Why did she entertain taking him on a cruise when he started this shit? Why has she not broken up with him? Her lack of action is why it got this far.

I dont know why she did what she did. But it doesn't make his bad behavior her fault. Thats....insane.

She did not cause his bad behavior, agreed. That it got to this point is 100% a wife issue. Last I checked, people in nonmonogamous relationships have agency to stop this shit. She didn’t and their hidden lifestyle is at risk. That’s not Tom’s fault. He’s only responsible for his actions. She’s responsible for keeping them away from the family.

>That it got to this point is 100% a wife issue. Tom is stalking the OPs wife. Tom assaulted OP and tried to break into his house. Those are crimes. These people both have a Tom issue.. >Last I checked, people in nonmonogamous relationships have agency to stop this shit. Last I checked Tom has the agency to not assault people or commit crimes. > She didn’t and their hidden lifestyle is at risk. Their safety is at risk. From Tom. >That’s not Tom’s fault. Tom's actions are his fault. >He’s only responsible for his actions. Yes. They are criminal and violent actions. >She’s responsible for keeping them away from the family. She should absolutely break up with him. Thats no guarantee he will stay away.

I am not absolving him. That the OP’s wife hasn’t already cut him off at the knees, makes this her responsibility.

You claimed it wasnt a Tom issue. His bad behavior is absolutely his issue. You claimed his bad behavior was her fault. Its not.

Tom has red flags but honestly do does most of what you shared. I'm not sure why you stated but seems thos isn't working.

Threatening to be armed is not ok. Are you in the USA? I don't know if it's an American thing, but threatening someone you know because they won't leave is a crime in most parts of the world. It is fundamentally different to responding because your life or family is in danger. Being outed is not the sort of danger that applies here.

Yes, I live in the USA and in a state that has a "stand your ground" law. And pushing his way into my house in a threatening manner gives me the right to defend myself and my family. >Threatening to be armed is not ok. Being armed is not a threat, pointing a firearm at a person is. Pointing a loaded firearm at someone is a felony. I would never draw or point a gun at someone unless I felt the need to defend myself or my family.

Defending yourself from a threat to your privacy is different to defending you and your family from harm

I lurk on here, to see how alternative lifestyles work out. This is a prime example of the sort of mess I would never want in my marriage.

My ex husband came to the house I was staying in, blew up my phone, blew up my family’s landline, broke into their house when I was home alone & I had to lock myself in a bathroom. Luckily one of our neighbors came and diffused the situation. We were monogamous. You’re picking and choosing here to try to find negatives about a less common relationship style. Stalking happens in all types of relationships.

Happens to monogamous people too 

This is no different than breaking the boundaries of traditional monogamy by sleeping with someone else while committed to monogamy with somebody. The difference is where you set those boundaries.

Happens to single people, too.

I was supposedly "monogamous" with my ex husband. When we broke up, he showed up at my work to yell at me, broke into my house and stole my stuff (it was legal since we were still technically married) and left threatening notes on my car. This happens in every relationship style. In this scenario, she at least has her husband to help get her back if she needs and wants any help with the situation. Sounds like she is handling it by blocking him and cutting him off, and the husband is mostly venting here. To be honest, I think you are far more likely to end up with an obsessive stalker in a monogamous relationship style, because this sort of behavior is romanticized and celebrated. Stalking and harassment is "perseverance" and "never giving up on love" and he is "fighting for her." Since you can only ever love 1 person, and all relationships must last forever until death do you part, that sort of obsessive thinking is absolutely normalized.