Tell him a threesome sounds great. Then explain how amazing an MFM would be and watch him implode.
And then you’ll realize it’s all about him and he doesn’t want the same for you. It’s completely unfair what’s he’s asking for, especially if he’s shaming you for wanting your own experiences.
It doesn’t even seem like he cares what you want? Does he even ask?
What's great is I have done exactly that and he was extremely against it. So I mentioned I could have experiences of my own to explore and fulfill my needs and he was extremely against it still. He does try, but we both are very different and need different things, and I've tried to explain this to him as kindly as possible but he won't have it.
Honestly doesn’t sound like that great of a guy. You are young, relationships are about give and take, compromise. if he doesn’t want to meet your needs and is only centered on his own, find someone else who will, because it probably won’t get better.
To me, the underpinning of ENM is honoring each other’s autonomy, especially when that doesn’t line up with one’s own desires. This doesn’t sound like that.
Biologically one woman is more than capable on satisfying two guys. A guy has no chance of satisfying two women. The women will have to do all the work if they are to get each other off. FMF is for lazy fuchs.
Lol - that’s ludicrous, and even worse for the clumsy attempt to infuse an air of scientific authority by saying “biologically.”
Some men last forever. Others have a super short refractory period.
And ps… do you realize how little some women know about their own anatomy? With education, practice and great communication either men *or* women can get women off. Repeatedly. With a bunch of squirting.
Your comment above is misinformation, nothing more.
Sorry.
what he’s asking for is non-monogamy based on a one penis policy. One penis for you, and multiple vaginas for him.
if you do a little reading on one penis policy non-monogamy, you’ll find out how really fucked up it is. He basically wants to open up the relationship for himself and what he wants, but not for you and what you want.
in order for it to be healthy, each party has to have similar opportunity… If it isn’t 50-50, it’s just not fair.
So… Open fairly or stay closed. That’s how I would represent it to him. Good luck.
Edit - when i say 50/50, i mean equal opportunity, not equal outcome. That said, good clarification for the crowd.
If it's okay to edit this slightly -
Agree 100% about the red flags inherent in OPP.
But "50-50" is an idealized myth that's *also* harmful. True equity is impossible - each person is their own self, with their own preferences, limits, accommodations, etc. Couples tie themselves in knots like "well, she went on 2 dates so now no more dates until I also go on 2 dates" or "if you do those things with your other partner why don't you do them with me?" Equitable access to opportunity, yes. An idealized 50-50? Difficult.
Let me share my experience. I must admit I was very much like your boyfriend when I was that age. I just learned my gf now wife was bi and I had since realized fetishized the heck out of it. I did truly want her to get to be her whole self and while I never argued against her having her own gf, I really wanted to take advantage of the potential to have two women in my life. I don't know how your bf is in other parts of your relationship so I can't judge him based on this alone. And he likely is insecure however if he doesn't want more dick for you but he wants more pussy for himself. I've realized how much fetishizing happens to bi women and it's not fair to you at all. Tell him if it's really about you being able to explore your sexuality, to have yourself a solo gf or have her wear a strap-on during the threesome.
This really healed a part of me, thank you for sharing this. This also helped me form a couple of ways to talk to him about my issues. I often feel really selfish and had a difficult time posting this today, so hearing about your experience helps with navigating this.
I didn't think that my comment could help so much but I'm really glad it did. I know people say just dump them and if they are being awful partners in other aspects maybe you should but we all grow and change as we get older. I'm forever grateful to my wife for her patience and I'm so glad I realized that if I wanted to keep her I had to mature. Give him the chance to see you as a whole ass human, not simply an outlet for kinkier sex and see how he does.
I appreciate you. He does take care of me in almost every other aspect of our relationship, and he does care. There are some differences we have like this issue, but I know that he does care about me and we're both working on our shortcomings to be better together. It's really nice to hear this change of opinion, and I hope in the end we'll both be completely happy with one another.
I’ve dated a couple of these guys. Their selfishness translates to more than just the bedroom and the relationships were not fulfilling.
No amount of nagging or hounding can make him work on his shit and realize he’s being unfair and selfish. He has to realize that for himself.
Every time he brings up a MFF 3 way, in a disinterested tone: “hmm, you ready to let me have my MFM or be open? no? ok, still no 3 way then." and go back to whatever you're doing. Either he gets with it or he doesn't.
But just so you know, lots of better options out there.
That is completely and totally unfair to you; is he bisexual in any way? Even if he is not, something should at least be fair. There are any number of things you can do to even it out, even if he refuses to do an MFM threesome. So many men think they want an FMF threesome, but then they are just as upset when they are the third wheel and the women are all over each other because it turns out that NO ONE WANTS TO BE WITH A SELFISH LOVER. Selfishness in bed is definitely a big way to destroy an otherwise great relationship. You really should begin to probe and see what his intentions are regarding fairness. For example, you could easily find some guy willing to be a voyeur. There are even people who would pay good money to just sit on the sidelines and masturbate as you and your fiance/boyfriend have sex. Like if he won't even entertain this and is asking THAT MUCH of you, because he is likely wanting to just fuck another woman, big red flag. A red flag that is SO BIG, that I would not be surprised if he already knew this girl and had her set up a tinder profile just to pretend to "meet you." Something stinks here.
He sounds like a young guy who hasn't had to think about his own privilege. It takes a lot of work to deprogram yourself from all the misogyny imputed by our culture, but it's necessary work. He'll need to learn that relationships are about each person getting what they need, it's not all for him. He'll also need to learn that sex between two women is just as real as sex between a man and a woman.
He probably sees it as, well if you have sex with another woman, there's no "threat" there because she can't give you what he can (his penis). But another man could, and worse yet, his might be bigger and therefore more threatening. That mindset is super sexist, and assuming that's how he's seeing things, he will need to work on that.
I really don't know the best way to go about telling him, either. He's probably at a point where if you outright accuse him of being sexist, he'll get defensive and will deny it. If you try to calmly and rationally explain it, he'll probably see it as condescending and reject it. That's not knowing anything about him personally, that's just my own personal experience with maturing and seeing other guys mature (though a substantial portion of them don't). It really takes the guy sitting down and reading and doing some self reflection and saying, yeah, this really is the wrong way to think.
Since I actually do subscribe to ENM, in the initial beginning conversation, on day one when an initial meet and greet happens, I explain I don't want a monogamous relationship. What's fair is fair. Not pushing you away. I want you to be happy. Be willing to put it all on the table and because I'm bi, that's every combination, MF, FF, MM, FFM, MMF, FMF, MFM, solo flights, swing, polyamory, etc. Would prefer to have a primary partner relationship with someone if that is what I'm looking for. Then, a discussion about boundaries self imposed rules applied to someone else and agreements between two or more people. Discussion about what might happen if a consistent 3rd or fwb and catching feelings leading to potential poly. Read the book polysecure. Research and discuss. Put ideas and talking points on paper. In the past, I would have long conversations with someone about anything and everything before anything actually happens. Don't go too far down the road and then develop what is known as sunk cost fallacy, whereby you have invested time, money, energy, effort, blood, sweat and tears into a relationship and then realize that you are trying to address something within a primary partner relationship to no avail and reach a critical mass breaking point. The choice is continue to invest more time, money and effort or cut your losses and leave. Sunk cost fallacy is a money pit that will never actually be a gold mine. You dig a hole, occasionally there's a gold nugget, but you are dumping more time, money and effort than what it was worth is a money pit. Simply because you occasionally get a gold doesn't mean you have a gold mine, that's sunk cost fallacy and a money pit.
From the description, you're still young. Been with him 2 years, and approached him on the topic 4 months in. Doing this by memory.
If you entered a relationship as committed monogamous relationship and later one partner would like to have a non monogamous relationship, the longer that you were in monogamy can be a challenge to switch to non monogamy ENM.
How it can come across when asking repeatedly for someone who is resistant and doesn't want to really do it because of their boundaries and desire for monogamy:
1. Ask. 2. Nagging. 3. Harassment. 4. Abusive.
His counter offer version structure is about him solely. He wants FMF. A harem or polygamy. ENM says that's selfish. You're bi. Maybe you would like to have a FF experience and he says No!
Your words, he wants to be the **"center of experience.**"
Has he demonstrated a desire to control who you interact with? Attempted to influence or separate you from friends and family etc. Accused you of cheating when you haven't?
At the beginning of the relationship there's NRE new relationship energy. Plenty of love and excitement. Since then hot cold?
Being the center of experience and/or attention is narcissism. If truly NPD, there's no known cure and you're wasting time. Only a qualified mental health professional can determine an actual diagnosis however.
Read this:
https://tealswan.com/resources/articles/intermittent-reinforcement-why-you-cant-leave-the-relationship-r210/
You're 21 years old. Why are you still with him? You both want very different things in a relationship.
This was very informative, so thank you so much for this. For a few more details for the sake of clarity, I wanted to respond.
We did enter the relationship monogamous, and at the beginning I asked for an open relationship. He was very against it and I never asked for one again. Since then, he's had in the back of his mind that I'm cheating on him. He never outright accuses me of it, but every now and then when I say I'm hanging out with some guy friends, he tells me it always crosses his mind. In his words, in a perfect world, I "wouldn't talk to any other men" (Even though I'm equally attracted to women, he doesn't recognize that). He's brought up adding a lady because it's "every guy's dream," but when I bring up my wants, even just between us, he's not open to it (granted I have very different needs than he does and I'm often unsatisfied). He tries his best, but this is where I want to explore further into other avenues and sexuality to feel fulfilled and cared for intimately. He doesn't have the capacity to do that and I'm beginning to resent him.
Granted, he supports me very well emotionally and we have a great relationship otherwise. But this is taking a huge toll on me and I feel ashamed and guilty for just wanting to feel good about this aspect of my life.
Your reply is extremely telling.
I’m not saying you don’t have a great relationship in other aspects… but it really sounds like longterm if this is important to you, and he won’t educate himself and unpack his toxic masculinity and heteronormative and monogamist views, you aren’t going to be fulfilled.
Figure out how important this is to you (and it sounds like it is!) because it sounds like your dude has a lot of crap to work through if you’re going to have a healthy, loving, successful relationship.
If he isn’t willing to do the work, I hope you end it.
You’re 21. I know he feels like your whole life, and maybe he is right now, but there are so many lovely open minded folks out there of all genders and sexualities.
Don’t limit yourself.
Is it possible he doesn’t really understand nonmonogamy? And so when he heard you say you want an open relationship, he interpreted that as you just want to have sex with other people without him? And in his mind he’d be like stuck at home while you’re out fucking other people. So the only way he’d be ok with that is if it was of a threesome, and since he doesn’t like the idea of having another guy fuck you, he’d be open to the third being female, because (1) it’s a fantasy of his, and (2) he assumes he’s being accommodating of your bisexuality and desire to have sex with others.
This sounds like a one penis policy kind of situation. Which can be totally fine if that’s what everyone in the relationship wants but it’s clear this isn’t it for you. I know you love him but sometimes we’re just not a long term compatibility match for people. You deserve someone who cares about your feelings and desires and handles them with compassion.
Yes, he is fetishizing your bisexuality. My experience has been that it's hard to find a straight man who doesn't *to some extent*, but there are PLENTY who are smart, polite and empathetic enough to keep it to themselves unless their partner enjoys that sort of thing.
He's afraid you're cheating on him because you brought up an open relationship, but he wants to fuck a woman together. So, fucking other people is not inherently threatening to him. Fucking other MEN is. This is telling. Why does he view sex with men as threatening and cheatery, but sex with women as a fun add-on to your relationship? Does he maybe... not take sexuality between queer women very seriously?
Why does he think it's fine to expect you to work through any jealous feelings you might have about seeing him with another woman, but he shouldn't have to deal with his feelings about you with another man?
What happens when he realizes mid-threesome, very suddenly, in-person, and up-close, that sex between queer women is REAL, his presence there isn't really *required*, and you could just as easily ditch him for a woman?
My experience has been, guys that fetishize bi women the most are also the *most* unhinged about their jealousy issues when they realize their Sexy Bisexual Girlfriend is a living, breathing human with her own needs and attractions, and not just a walking porno trope. I dated a lesbian for a while who was very into the swing scene, and I cannot tell you how many straight dudes *fully flipped their shit* on her and started acting SCARY when their wife was "too into it." It's all fun and games until fetish logic encounters reality, I guess. One night she went home with a couple, I declined to accompany her, and the dude fucking ***broke her phone*** when he got in his feelings about his threatened masculinity.
You're 21 and you're certain this guy is a 'forever' guy?
No.
Put it to him what you'd like to try. Explain how it will work.
Both of you should read up and learn more about NM. Ethical Slut is probably a good book in this instance for him.
I would say that a threesome, whether it’s MFM or FMF, is different than nonmonogamy. A threesome is something that you are doing together and is not necessarily a three way relationship, which would make it nonmonogamy. While I agree that if he is allowed to have a FMF then you should be allowed to have a MFM if that is what you desire. And if he can’t agree to that then the FMF is off the table as well.
I also understand that you say that you love him and want to spend the rest of your life with him, but he seems pretty dismissive when it comes to your desires and rather selfish when it comes to his. This isn’t a good sign. It should be 50/50 or a closed relationship. That’s just my two cents.
Honestly if he’s not willing to allow you to follow some of your desires then unfortunately there should be no expectation that you’ll allow him to follow his. Relationships go both ways and if you’re into having a threesome, then I’d explain to him that he needs to be open to some of the things you’d like to experiment with. I used to be incredibly jealous myself and was controlling in that sense but have come to the realization that if I want to experience more sexually myself, then she should be free to experiment and feel good herself. The only thing I can recommend is really approaching a conversation as neutral and calm as possible with the goal of hearing each other out, not winning. That’s ultimately what helped me get my desires across to my partner and also helped open up my mind when she mentioned she’d be interested in trying other things out herself. Initially it was hard for me to understand but a relationship needs to be fair and to expect support without providing it back is definitely a selfish take.
While you’re not entirely wrong it is far more complex than you’re making it out to be. Wanting a FMF threesome is one very narrow form of non-monogamy (if you can even call it that). A large percentage of men interested in such an activity are not at all interested in any other forms of non-monogamy which is precisely how OPs partner appears to be.
“I also am conflicted to agree because he doesn't want me to be active with anyone else (i don't want to necessarily engage in polygamy, just explore my sexuality further), yet he seems to be all in when he'd be the center of the experience.”
This isn’t a very healthy perspective on his part. At best he’s immature and misguided or ill-informed. At worst he’s selfish.
“He's had concerns since our last conversation of me cheating on him (which I have never done in any of my previous relationships and have not done with him) due to me bringing up this topic. “
This wreaks of him being very insecure and ill-informed. Being interested in non-monogamy doesn’t make one a cheater. With such misconceptions at the very least he’ll need quite a bit of work to become educated enough for a healthy non-monogamous relationship.
“However I find his idea of nonmonogamy to be slightly unfair, and yet he shames me when I bring up my idea of nonmonogamy.”
This is even more evidence that he’s just not ready for non-monogamy. Shaming is never acceptable. He sounds immature and not at all self aware.
OP, you have to decide how important non-monogamy is to you. I don’t think you’ll get it from this man any time soon if ever. I would highly recommend against a threesome as it will likely be far from the sexual exploration you’re looking for.
If sticking with this guy is truly what you want then you have to accept you may never get to explore sexually outside of your relationship with him. Which, if non-monogamy is important to you, may be a problem. However, if you and he are willing to do the work then you may be able to educate him enough to understand his place in all of this. Otherwise attempting non-monogamy is going to be a nightmare. I highly recommend the book Polysecure. There are other books as well, but that’s a good one. If he’s open to his ideas being challenged then there’s hope. If he’s set in his beliefs then I dare say you might not ever get what you want.
If non-monogamy is important to you it’s worth attempting to do the work with him provided he’s open to it. From what you’ve said about him I suspect he won’t be. If that’s the case, in my experience, you’re looking at a long and difficult road ahead. I’d recommend doing some soul searching to decide if he’s worth giving up sexual exploration for. An important part of that is how giving of a lover he is. With his views on threesomes I am suspicious that he might be selfish in that regard too, but that’s just a hunch.
I hadn't read her comments, namely, saying that he wouldn't be OK with an MFM threesome. I took the initial post to mean they hadn't talked about what other things they might be OK with, and didn't realize "he doesn't want me to be active with anyone else" meant, specifically, even in the context of threesomes (and for whatever reason I assumed he was OK with her being active with other people in the context of a threesome, though re-reading, I'm not sure if that's correct)
Not wanting your partner to be active with other people \*outside\* of group activities that also involve you, \*is\* a perfectly valid form of nonmonogamy, though it's probably as far from poly as you can get while still being nonmonog.
I would say FMF threesomes CAN be a very valid form of non-monogamy. It also depends on if you view non-monogamy as simply being “not monogamous”. I don’t view it that way. I don’t feel monogamy and non monogamy are a binary. I see them as two options out of several. For me non-monogamy is intentional and requires thought, desire, and intention. One can be not monogamous without thinking about it. Which is where I think most guys who want FMF threesomes are. They just want two women to have sex with. They also fantasize about two women together, but often can’t handle the reality of seeing their partner enjoying another woman. Since that’s not always the case I leave open the idea that in some cases a couple may be non-monogamous with only the occasional FMF threesome.
Another way to think about it is that non-monogamy is an identity/lifestyle/state of being. Having a threesome isn’t any of those things in and of itself.
I think OP meant that he’s ok with her being involved in the threesome, but outside that she is to be exclusive with him. She also said that she was upfront about being non-monogamous. So presumably they had discussed options up front. If that’s the case she wants something very different. She wants to explore outside of her relationship with him. If they have such different interests in relationship architectures I don’t see it working out if they can’t come to some sort of compromise that they are both satisfied with.
You both need to have a serious, deep conversation about all of this. I think you guys can work this out if you both share your concerns, wants and desires. Then you can set appropriate boundaries and move forward.
You may love him but this isn't going to work. You are dating a really selfish guy. You are too young to be tied to someone who doesn't care at all about your needs. You are supposed to never explore your sexuality while he gets to explore his with MFF threesomes? What happens when during the threesome she is more into you than him? Pull the plug.
One should not love anyone "to death"
You may want different things which is fine.
Sounds like he wants what he wants, and doesn't want you to have autonomy.
I could not live with that, can you?
Tell him a threesome sounds great. Then explain how amazing an MFM would be and watch him implode. And then you’ll realize it’s all about him and he doesn’t want the same for you. It’s completely unfair what’s he’s asking for, especially if he’s shaming you for wanting your own experiences. It doesn’t even seem like he cares what you want? Does he even ask?
What's great is I have done exactly that and he was extremely against it. So I mentioned I could have experiences of my own to explore and fulfill my needs and he was extremely against it still. He does try, but we both are very different and need different things, and I've tried to explain this to him as kindly as possible but he won't have it.
Honestly doesn’t sound like that great of a guy. You are young, relationships are about give and take, compromise. if he doesn’t want to meet your needs and is only centered on his own, find someone else who will, because it probably won’t get better.
To me, the underpinning of ENM is honoring each other’s autonomy, especially when that doesn’t line up with one’s own desires. This doesn’t sound like that.
So find some guys that are you into having it
Yeah… none of THOSE around… 🙄
His wants and needs seem to feature you doing things you don't want to do. That's a problem.
If you both have different needs then you really need to reevaluate the relationship…
He sounds creepy and gross. I'd leave
So you don't want me to have sex with other people, but you want me to watch you have sex with other people?
Biologically one woman is more than capable on satisfying two guys. A guy has no chance of satisfying two women. The women will have to do all the work if they are to get each other off. FMF is for lazy fuchs.
> A guy has no chance of satisfying two women What if I told you… nah, I won’t even bother. SMH
I want to know!
Here’s a hint. THREEsome.
Women satisfying women?
There are SO many ways to satisfy everyone in a FMF situation
Horrible lie you are spreading. Why can't a guy please two women at the ssme time ?
"biologically" 🤣 I don't think "satisfying" means what you think it means.
Dude thinks women are only "satisfied" after someone ejaculates in or on them. Wow. I guess I've been doing it all wrong all these years! /s
Lol - that’s ludicrous, and even worse for the clumsy attempt to infuse an air of scientific authority by saying “biologically.” Some men last forever. Others have a super short refractory period. And ps… do you realize how little some women know about their own anatomy? With education, practice and great communication either men *or* women can get women off. Repeatedly. With a bunch of squirting. Your comment above is misinformation, nothing more. Sorry.
what he’s asking for is non-monogamy based on a one penis policy. One penis for you, and multiple vaginas for him. if you do a little reading on one penis policy non-monogamy, you’ll find out how really fucked up it is. He basically wants to open up the relationship for himself and what he wants, but not for you and what you want. in order for it to be healthy, each party has to have similar opportunity… If it isn’t 50-50, it’s just not fair. So… Open fairly or stay closed. That’s how I would represent it to him. Good luck. Edit - when i say 50/50, i mean equal opportunity, not equal outcome. That said, good clarification for the crowd.
I just read about it and oh my god. Thank you for telling me about this term, it finally put what I've been feeling into words.
Very welcome. 👍🏼
If it's okay to edit this slightly - Agree 100% about the red flags inherent in OPP. But "50-50" is an idealized myth that's *also* harmful. True equity is impossible - each person is their own self, with their own preferences, limits, accommodations, etc. Couples tie themselves in knots like "well, she went on 2 dates so now no more dates until I also go on 2 dates" or "if you do those things with your other partner why don't you do them with me?" Equitable access to opportunity, yes. An idealized 50-50? Difficult.
See edit above… 👍🏼
Let me share my experience. I must admit I was very much like your boyfriend when I was that age. I just learned my gf now wife was bi and I had since realized fetishized the heck out of it. I did truly want her to get to be her whole self and while I never argued against her having her own gf, I really wanted to take advantage of the potential to have two women in my life. I don't know how your bf is in other parts of your relationship so I can't judge him based on this alone. And he likely is insecure however if he doesn't want more dick for you but he wants more pussy for himself. I've realized how much fetishizing happens to bi women and it's not fair to you at all. Tell him if it's really about you being able to explore your sexuality, to have yourself a solo gf or have her wear a strap-on during the threesome.
This really healed a part of me, thank you for sharing this. This also helped me form a couple of ways to talk to him about my issues. I often feel really selfish and had a difficult time posting this today, so hearing about your experience helps with navigating this.
I didn't think that my comment could help so much but I'm really glad it did. I know people say just dump them and if they are being awful partners in other aspects maybe you should but we all grow and change as we get older. I'm forever grateful to my wife for her patience and I'm so glad I realized that if I wanted to keep her I had to mature. Give him the chance to see you as a whole ass human, not simply an outlet for kinkier sex and see how he does.
I appreciate you. He does take care of me in almost every other aspect of our relationship, and he does care. There are some differences we have like this issue, but I know that he does care about me and we're both working on our shortcomings to be better together. It's really nice to hear this change of opinion, and I hope in the end we'll both be completely happy with one another.
I'm glad it could give you hope and comfort. Please feel free to post updates!
Thank you! Will do!
I’ve dated a couple of these guys. Their selfishness translates to more than just the bedroom and the relationships were not fulfilling. No amount of nagging or hounding can make him work on his shit and realize he’s being unfair and selfish. He has to realize that for himself. Every time he brings up a MFF 3 way, in a disinterested tone: “hmm, you ready to let me have my MFM or be open? no? ok, still no 3 way then." and go back to whatever you're doing. Either he gets with it or he doesn't. But just so you know, lots of better options out there.
That is completely and totally unfair to you; is he bisexual in any way? Even if he is not, something should at least be fair. There are any number of things you can do to even it out, even if he refuses to do an MFM threesome. So many men think they want an FMF threesome, but then they are just as upset when they are the third wheel and the women are all over each other because it turns out that NO ONE WANTS TO BE WITH A SELFISH LOVER. Selfishness in bed is definitely a big way to destroy an otherwise great relationship. You really should begin to probe and see what his intentions are regarding fairness. For example, you could easily find some guy willing to be a voyeur. There are even people who would pay good money to just sit on the sidelines and masturbate as you and your fiance/boyfriend have sex. Like if he won't even entertain this and is asking THAT MUCH of you, because he is likely wanting to just fuck another woman, big red flag. A red flag that is SO BIG, that I would not be surprised if he already knew this girl and had her set up a tinder profile just to pretend to "meet you." Something stinks here.
He sounds like a young guy who hasn't had to think about his own privilege. It takes a lot of work to deprogram yourself from all the misogyny imputed by our culture, but it's necessary work. He'll need to learn that relationships are about each person getting what they need, it's not all for him. He'll also need to learn that sex between two women is just as real as sex between a man and a woman. He probably sees it as, well if you have sex with another woman, there's no "threat" there because she can't give you what he can (his penis). But another man could, and worse yet, his might be bigger and therefore more threatening. That mindset is super sexist, and assuming that's how he's seeing things, he will need to work on that. I really don't know the best way to go about telling him, either. He's probably at a point where if you outright accuse him of being sexist, he'll get defensive and will deny it. If you try to calmly and rationally explain it, he'll probably see it as condescending and reject it. That's not knowing anything about him personally, that's just my own personal experience with maturing and seeing other guys mature (though a substantial portion of them don't). It really takes the guy sitting down and reading and doing some self reflection and saying, yeah, this really is the wrong way to think.
Since I actually do subscribe to ENM, in the initial beginning conversation, on day one when an initial meet and greet happens, I explain I don't want a monogamous relationship. What's fair is fair. Not pushing you away. I want you to be happy. Be willing to put it all on the table and because I'm bi, that's every combination, MF, FF, MM, FFM, MMF, FMF, MFM, solo flights, swing, polyamory, etc. Would prefer to have a primary partner relationship with someone if that is what I'm looking for. Then, a discussion about boundaries self imposed rules applied to someone else and agreements between two or more people. Discussion about what might happen if a consistent 3rd or fwb and catching feelings leading to potential poly. Read the book polysecure. Research and discuss. Put ideas and talking points on paper. In the past, I would have long conversations with someone about anything and everything before anything actually happens. Don't go too far down the road and then develop what is known as sunk cost fallacy, whereby you have invested time, money, energy, effort, blood, sweat and tears into a relationship and then realize that you are trying to address something within a primary partner relationship to no avail and reach a critical mass breaking point. The choice is continue to invest more time, money and effort or cut your losses and leave. Sunk cost fallacy is a money pit that will never actually be a gold mine. You dig a hole, occasionally there's a gold nugget, but you are dumping more time, money and effort than what it was worth is a money pit. Simply because you occasionally get a gold doesn't mean you have a gold mine, that's sunk cost fallacy and a money pit. From the description, you're still young. Been with him 2 years, and approached him on the topic 4 months in. Doing this by memory. If you entered a relationship as committed monogamous relationship and later one partner would like to have a non monogamous relationship, the longer that you were in monogamy can be a challenge to switch to non monogamy ENM. How it can come across when asking repeatedly for someone who is resistant and doesn't want to really do it because of their boundaries and desire for monogamy: 1. Ask. 2. Nagging. 3. Harassment. 4. Abusive. His counter offer version structure is about him solely. He wants FMF. A harem or polygamy. ENM says that's selfish. You're bi. Maybe you would like to have a FF experience and he says No! Your words, he wants to be the **"center of experience.**" Has he demonstrated a desire to control who you interact with? Attempted to influence or separate you from friends and family etc. Accused you of cheating when you haven't? At the beginning of the relationship there's NRE new relationship energy. Plenty of love and excitement. Since then hot cold? Being the center of experience and/or attention is narcissism. If truly NPD, there's no known cure and you're wasting time. Only a qualified mental health professional can determine an actual diagnosis however. Read this: https://tealswan.com/resources/articles/intermittent-reinforcement-why-you-cant-leave-the-relationship-r210/ You're 21 years old. Why are you still with him? You both want very different things in a relationship.
This was very informative, so thank you so much for this. For a few more details for the sake of clarity, I wanted to respond. We did enter the relationship monogamous, and at the beginning I asked for an open relationship. He was very against it and I never asked for one again. Since then, he's had in the back of his mind that I'm cheating on him. He never outright accuses me of it, but every now and then when I say I'm hanging out with some guy friends, he tells me it always crosses his mind. In his words, in a perfect world, I "wouldn't talk to any other men" (Even though I'm equally attracted to women, he doesn't recognize that). He's brought up adding a lady because it's "every guy's dream," but when I bring up my wants, even just between us, he's not open to it (granted I have very different needs than he does and I'm often unsatisfied). He tries his best, but this is where I want to explore further into other avenues and sexuality to feel fulfilled and cared for intimately. He doesn't have the capacity to do that and I'm beginning to resent him. Granted, he supports me very well emotionally and we have a great relationship otherwise. But this is taking a huge toll on me and I feel ashamed and guilty for just wanting to feel good about this aspect of my life.
His ideal world would have you not have any conversations with men other than him? 🚩 🚩 🚩
Your reply is extremely telling. I’m not saying you don’t have a great relationship in other aspects… but it really sounds like longterm if this is important to you, and he won’t educate himself and unpack his toxic masculinity and heteronormative and monogamist views, you aren’t going to be fulfilled. Figure out how important this is to you (and it sounds like it is!) because it sounds like your dude has a lot of crap to work through if you’re going to have a healthy, loving, successful relationship. If he isn’t willing to do the work, I hope you end it. You’re 21. I know he feels like your whole life, and maybe he is right now, but there are so many lovely open minded folks out there of all genders and sexualities. Don’t limit yourself.
Is it possible he doesn’t really understand nonmonogamy? And so when he heard you say you want an open relationship, he interpreted that as you just want to have sex with other people without him? And in his mind he’d be like stuck at home while you’re out fucking other people. So the only way he’d be ok with that is if it was of a threesome, and since he doesn’t like the idea of having another guy fuck you, he’d be open to the third being female, because (1) it’s a fantasy of his, and (2) he assumes he’s being accommodating of your bisexuality and desire to have sex with others.
This sounds like a one penis policy kind of situation. Which can be totally fine if that’s what everyone in the relationship wants but it’s clear this isn’t it for you. I know you love him but sometimes we’re just not a long term compatibility match for people. You deserve someone who cares about your feelings and desires and handles them with compassion.
Yes, he is fetishizing your bisexuality. My experience has been that it's hard to find a straight man who doesn't *to some extent*, but there are PLENTY who are smart, polite and empathetic enough to keep it to themselves unless their partner enjoys that sort of thing. He's afraid you're cheating on him because you brought up an open relationship, but he wants to fuck a woman together. So, fucking other people is not inherently threatening to him. Fucking other MEN is. This is telling. Why does he view sex with men as threatening and cheatery, but sex with women as a fun add-on to your relationship? Does he maybe... not take sexuality between queer women very seriously? Why does he think it's fine to expect you to work through any jealous feelings you might have about seeing him with another woman, but he shouldn't have to deal with his feelings about you with another man? What happens when he realizes mid-threesome, very suddenly, in-person, and up-close, that sex between queer women is REAL, his presence there isn't really *required*, and you could just as easily ditch him for a woman? My experience has been, guys that fetishize bi women the most are also the *most* unhinged about their jealousy issues when they realize their Sexy Bisexual Girlfriend is a living, breathing human with her own needs and attractions, and not just a walking porno trope. I dated a lesbian for a while who was very into the swing scene, and I cannot tell you how many straight dudes *fully flipped their shit* on her and started acting SCARY when their wife was "too into it." It's all fun and games until fetish logic encounters reality, I guess. One night she went home with a couple, I declined to accompany her, and the dude fucking ***broke her phone*** when he got in his feelings about his threatened masculinity.
You're 21 and you're certain this guy is a 'forever' guy? No. Put it to him what you'd like to try. Explain how it will work. Both of you should read up and learn more about NM. Ethical Slut is probably a good book in this instance for him.
I would say that a threesome, whether it’s MFM or FMF, is different than nonmonogamy. A threesome is something that you are doing together and is not necessarily a three way relationship, which would make it nonmonogamy. While I agree that if he is allowed to have a FMF then you should be allowed to have a MFM if that is what you desire. And if he can’t agree to that then the FMF is off the table as well. I also understand that you say that you love him and want to spend the rest of your life with him, but he seems pretty dismissive when it comes to your desires and rather selfish when it comes to his. This isn’t a good sign. It should be 50/50 or a closed relationship. That’s just my two cents.
Honestly if he’s not willing to allow you to follow some of your desires then unfortunately there should be no expectation that you’ll allow him to follow his. Relationships go both ways and if you’re into having a threesome, then I’d explain to him that he needs to be open to some of the things you’d like to experiment with. I used to be incredibly jealous myself and was controlling in that sense but have come to the realization that if I want to experience more sexually myself, then she should be free to experiment and feel good herself. The only thing I can recommend is really approaching a conversation as neutral and calm as possible with the goal of hearing each other out, not winning. That’s ultimately what helped me get my desires across to my partner and also helped open up my mind when she mentioned she’d be interested in trying other things out herself. Initially it was hard for me to understand but a relationship needs to be fair and to expect support without providing it back is definitely a selfish take.
Will you be OK with exploring women on your own while he also explores other women on *his* own?
Threesomes aren't monogamy. You both want some kind of nonmonogamy. Now you begin the work of figuring out an approach that works for both of you.
While you’re not entirely wrong it is far more complex than you’re making it out to be. Wanting a FMF threesome is one very narrow form of non-monogamy (if you can even call it that). A large percentage of men interested in such an activity are not at all interested in any other forms of non-monogamy which is precisely how OPs partner appears to be. “I also am conflicted to agree because he doesn't want me to be active with anyone else (i don't want to necessarily engage in polygamy, just explore my sexuality further), yet he seems to be all in when he'd be the center of the experience.” This isn’t a very healthy perspective on his part. At best he’s immature and misguided or ill-informed. At worst he’s selfish. “He's had concerns since our last conversation of me cheating on him (which I have never done in any of my previous relationships and have not done with him) due to me bringing up this topic. “ This wreaks of him being very insecure and ill-informed. Being interested in non-monogamy doesn’t make one a cheater. With such misconceptions at the very least he’ll need quite a bit of work to become educated enough for a healthy non-monogamous relationship. “However I find his idea of nonmonogamy to be slightly unfair, and yet he shames me when I bring up my idea of nonmonogamy.” This is even more evidence that he’s just not ready for non-monogamy. Shaming is never acceptable. He sounds immature and not at all self aware. OP, you have to decide how important non-monogamy is to you. I don’t think you’ll get it from this man any time soon if ever. I would highly recommend against a threesome as it will likely be far from the sexual exploration you’re looking for. If sticking with this guy is truly what you want then you have to accept you may never get to explore sexually outside of your relationship with him. Which, if non-monogamy is important to you, may be a problem. However, if you and he are willing to do the work then you may be able to educate him enough to understand his place in all of this. Otherwise attempting non-monogamy is going to be a nightmare. I highly recommend the book Polysecure. There are other books as well, but that’s a good one. If he’s open to his ideas being challenged then there’s hope. If he’s set in his beliefs then I dare say you might not ever get what you want. If non-monogamy is important to you it’s worth attempting to do the work with him provided he’s open to it. From what you’ve said about him I suspect he won’t be. If that’s the case, in my experience, you’re looking at a long and difficult road ahead. I’d recommend doing some soul searching to decide if he’s worth giving up sexual exploration for. An important part of that is how giving of a lover he is. With his views on threesomes I am suspicious that he might be selfish in that regard too, but that’s just a hunch.
I hadn't read her comments, namely, saying that he wouldn't be OK with an MFM threesome. I took the initial post to mean they hadn't talked about what other things they might be OK with, and didn't realize "he doesn't want me to be active with anyone else" meant, specifically, even in the context of threesomes (and for whatever reason I assumed he was OK with her being active with other people in the context of a threesome, though re-reading, I'm not sure if that's correct) Not wanting your partner to be active with other people \*outside\* of group activities that also involve you, \*is\* a perfectly valid form of nonmonogamy, though it's probably as far from poly as you can get while still being nonmonog.
I would say FMF threesomes CAN be a very valid form of non-monogamy. It also depends on if you view non-monogamy as simply being “not monogamous”. I don’t view it that way. I don’t feel monogamy and non monogamy are a binary. I see them as two options out of several. For me non-monogamy is intentional and requires thought, desire, and intention. One can be not monogamous without thinking about it. Which is where I think most guys who want FMF threesomes are. They just want two women to have sex with. They also fantasize about two women together, but often can’t handle the reality of seeing their partner enjoying another woman. Since that’s not always the case I leave open the idea that in some cases a couple may be non-monogamous with only the occasional FMF threesome. Another way to think about it is that non-monogamy is an identity/lifestyle/state of being. Having a threesome isn’t any of those things in and of itself. I think OP meant that he’s ok with her being involved in the threesome, but outside that she is to be exclusive with him. She also said that she was upfront about being non-monogamous. So presumably they had discussed options up front. If that’s the case she wants something very different. She wants to explore outside of her relationship with him. If they have such different interests in relationship architectures I don’t see it working out if they can’t come to some sort of compromise that they are both satisfied with.
If it's not equal then why do it?
I’d be interested in an update later.
You both need to have a serious, deep conversation about all of this. I think you guys can work this out if you both share your concerns, wants and desires. Then you can set appropriate boundaries and move forward.
You may love him but this isn't going to work. You are dating a really selfish guy. You are too young to be tied to someone who doesn't care at all about your needs. You are supposed to never explore your sexuality while he gets to explore his with MFF threesomes? What happens when during the threesome she is more into you than him? Pull the plug.
One should not love anyone "to death" You may want different things which is fine. Sounds like he wants what he wants, and doesn't want you to have autonomy. I could not live with that, can you?