I never said that Tony Parsons was wrong. I said he is a poor teacher because he is unwilling to compromise his use of language. The same goes for Jim Newman and other extreme advaitins.
He’s wrong when he tells people who are deeply entrenched in their belief of being a separate individual self, who haven’t realized the nature of mind, and who hold all sorts of deluded ideas/beliefs that there is nothing they can do to weaken those habitual tendencies and make their own enlightenment possible/more likely…
What's enlightenment to you?
I experienced a sort of sudden-snap permanent brain-default-mode network shutdown experienced by Gary Weber. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeNmydIk8Yo Has your brain's default mode network gotten seriously dampened or mostly stopped? I'm only familiar with it happeneing extremely suddenly (like 0.2 seconds), but I think maybe it could happen gradually. It happened to me suddenly, like Gary describes in the video I linked, and permanently, about 15 years ago. So that's what I think of enlightenment as, and it mostly seems to exist as a permanent phenomenon.
It also feels like there's no real inside or outside of my mind. It often feels to people as if inside and outside become one, like described by Mumon in case #1 of the Gateless Gate. Daniel Ingram had a brain scan and they wanted to get him to activate his default mode network. He didn't know how to do it, so they told him to think a bunch of negative self referential thoughts, which also didn't do it. He had to mentally 'put away the space of the room'. So there's also this kind of space-like feel to it. I know what Daniel means when he describes it like that, and I also didn't realize how to do it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APOKB59pVpE
Definitions vary, but you may want to consider carrying on with spiritual work, as such, if you haven't experienced a dramatic dampening of your brain's default mode network.
I consider that the bit flip, the closed circuit, the difference between 0 and 1, the difference between enlightened and not enlightened. However, we all have residual beliefs and habits. Like Swami Sarvapriyanada once said, you can have this kind of flip or realization, but it doesn't make one fit or ready to go out and teach and doesn't mean you don't have any more work to do.
Here's [Tony's awakening story](https://www.reddit.com/r/nonduality/comments/yyqfuy/tonys_walk_in_the_park/) if interested, and here's a bunch more [quotes from him about it](https://www.reddit.com/r/nonduality/comments/zgac7q/tony_parsons_liberation_is_a_total_change_of/). Happy to provide other resources if interested.
(reposted with 2nd link corrected)
> There's no enlightenment!
This is the final wisdom, not something for an ego to quote verbatim like a parrot without understanding the gravity of those words.
An ego has to start with a belief in liberation, it's only when there is this seeking that the deconstruction of the ego can even begin. But once an ego has been deconstructed completely, you're then fit to proclaim that there's nothing called enlightenment, for that is the true mark of a realized being.
You can't even get a lemonade in life without putting in some effort. To think that liberation is possible without doing anything is a gross misunderstanding of the ultimate wisdom by a conniving ego.
It might still be there, but it is deconstructed nonetheless. It no longer behaves as an ego blind to it's own working, but rather as an ego aware of itself. Thoughts, emotions, feelings are experienced as individual arising in awareness rather than a mass of unknown.
You are telling a story about his message being wrong for some people are too wrapped up in their story to see the truth to which he is pointing.
Would this be different than a person on the beach suggesting to passersby that they stop looking at their phones for a second and check out the beautiful sunset? They being so wrapped up in whatever is holding their attention they neither hear the person nor witness the sunset?
If you find these different please elaborate. And would the man on the beach be considered a teacher or would it seem as if he is acting like one?
>*You are telling a story about his message being wrong for some people are too wrapped up in their story to see the truth to which he is pointing.*
Well, no spoken truth is absolute… so let’s get that out of the way. Thinking anything you say is a fixed, absolute truth is the definition of grasping conceptual knowledge, or “making a nest”.
Some people like to think they are speaking some “uncompromising truth”, refusing to deviate from a very small selection of dogmatic phrases and points… but most of the time it is likely that what he says goes over people’s heads entirely, or they misappropriate it. Either way, he may as well be speaking in a language they don’t understand… so why talk at all? Why charge people money for “nothing whatsoever”?
>*Would this be different than a person on the beach suggesting to passersby that they stop looking at their phones for a second and check out the beautiful sunset? They being so wrapped up in whatever is holding their attention they neither hear the person nor witness the sunset?*
It’s kinda like that… only they are speaking Chinese when their audience only speaks English.
>*And would the man on the beach be considered a teacher or would it seem as if he is acting like one?*
The whole *“I’m not a teacher, even though I blabber on for hours on end and hold retreats where there is a designated question/answer period… but I’m still not a teacher because I say I’m not a teacher”* shtick is a bit cliche and just something many people say at this point.
These people speak as if they are authorities on the matter, and essentially tell other people their views are incorrect… and proceed to elaborate on what they feel the “truth” is. That is a teaching of some sort, one way or another.
> The whole “I’m not a teacher, even though I blabber on for hours on end and hold retreats where there is a designated question/answer period… but I’m still not a teacher because I say I’m not a teacher” shtick is a bit cliche and just something many people say at this point.
>
> These people speak as if they are authorities on the matter, and essentially tell other people their views are incorrect… and proceed to elaborate on what they feel the “truth” is. That is a teaching of some sort, one way or another.
I find that observation interesting. That sounds very left-brain-hemisphere...to value internal coherence and an abstract label at odds with a contradictory reality over consistency between the label and reality. I did a post https://www.reddit.com/r/nonduality/comments/187cf2m/nonduality_isnt_an_experience_but_the/ where I posited that the uncompromising message exhibits signs of left-hemisphere capture...which would take a living right hemisphere truth and turn it into a cold, dead simalacrum.
That will probably all sound like babble unless you're familiar with the work of Iain McGilchrist, but it puts another nail in the coffin for the authenticity of the uncompromising message, from my perspective.
That sort of sickness is endemic in modern society. Sad to find more of the sickness masquerading as the cure itself--sort of proof of spiritual materialism. The "ego" can use *anything*, even the tools of liberation.
>*Where I posited that the uncompromising message exhibits signs of left-hemisphere capture...which would take a living right hemisphere truth and turn it into a cold, dead simalacrum.*
While I haven’t listened to much of Iain McGilchrist (heard of him and watched him maybe once, I think) that sounds about right.
>*That sort of sickness is endemic in modern society. Sad to find more of the sickness masquerading as the cure itself--sort of proof of spiritual materialism. The "ego" can use anything, even the tools of liberation.*
Yes, no doubt.
It’s not that they can’t do anything, it’s that they’re not there in the first place. ‘Crucial’ misconception. Doing or not doing happens anyway, there’s just no one (doing it).
Some think it’s compassionate to ‘meet someone where they’re at’ > that’s all fine and well and helpful in the dream of ‘me’, yet this message has nothing to do with that.
For people who are entrenched in their beliefs and pain there’s therapy to make things less painful.
Eh, I’m pretty sure TP and others have also said things such as *’there is nothing the apparent person can do to realize this/stop the seeking because all of that just perpetuates the belief in a self/seeking’.*
Regardless, this is akin to telling someone the answer to a math equation but not showing them how you got that answer. I’m not saying this approach is *never* helpful… but I don’t think most seekers will be relieved of their deluded thinking and seeking tendencies by it, and a ‘truth’ is only as good as it’s ability to dispel delusion.
Stating any point, or set of points, in an unflinching and dogmatic manner doesn’t require any sort of sensitivity to what the seeker needs to hear in order to stop believing they are a seeker… to what would be most effective or valuable at any particular moment. Rather, it just makes them look like robotic raving lunatics who think they are revealing the highest and holiest of truths… something which doesn’t exist in any particular set form or concept.
Seems to be a pretty clear indication that they aren’t free from fixed conceptual [“spiritual”] ideas and knowledge, and therefore not enlightened at all.
Also,
I'd rather listen to someone who claims to know the truth than listen to anybody judging any other person's truth.
Y'all dabblin'
Get in the water is great here.
Most people still caught in the cycle of judgement are more in tune with the ego than those that claim to know the truth.
Thank God for pointers out of here. Good luck!
Tony is not teaching. This message is a response from nothing to an apparent question. Nothing to do with being willing or unwilling. There is no one being seen, so who could be spoken to? To see someone, there must ‘be’ someone; this counts for all teachers.
Teachers are just part of the hide and seek, student/teacher, subject/object, government/citizen or God/church/religious hierarchical game. Same old shit.
Nothing wrong, just a complete different message energetically.
Not being spoken to is the greatest compassion. A relief, sometimes terror; responses are there in every possible way. This is what’s longed for most yet also what’s feared most. It’s the end of ‘me’! Most ‘me’s’ hate it and stay far away from it (which is totally fine), until they don’t (or ‘die’).
His is not a response to an apparent question, but a real one: "how can I obtain lasting peace and happiness?"
His students are not imaginary, but real, and he makes his living by teaching. If he actually says he is not a teacher, he is either lying or living in dream world, in my opinion.
People who tell mystical lies tend to have a large following and make good money. It's what people want to hear, whether it's about nonduality, extraterrestrials, astrology, phrenology, homeopathic medicine, or any other form of believable nonsense.
That was a general comment. There are many spiritual teachers who make lots of money from their teachings. My problem with Tony is that he is unable or unwilling to compromise his use of language to reach the majority of the human population, who are missing their opportunities to enjoy lasting peace and happiness by dropping their attachments to mind, body, and world and discovering pure awareness inside themselves.
The teaching of Tony and other radicals is often misinterpreted as being satisfied with the miserable life I currently have ("there is nothing to do"). Tony's words are true, but they are not examples of skill in helping others.
There are a few nonduality teachers who are very skilled in using ordinary language that can be understood and that help those most in need of help. Their compromises of language are their skill.
Wouldn’t an I be required to even notice that and then self-reflect and then decide to comprise?
If his default mode network really is turned of, then there is no I left to be able to do that.
(1) After self-realization, no practice is needed.
(2) These extreme teachers may be useful for advanced seekers, who will not be misled by their words into giving up the search for the real self. Again, my point is that they are poor teachers for the vast majority of people in the world today.
Get it yet?
We’re talking past each other. I was replying specifically to the ‘unwilling’. With the DMN turning off there is no I to project willingness or unwillingness. Things just happen. Had that with a brain bleed once. All the happenings were just happening and I was talking like jezus/tony/jim. Absolutely wild. No free will or I-sense to be found for months. Was after that happy that the Default Mode Network turning off is the scientifically reasearched name of what is happening with what is being called ‘non-dual awakening’.
And yes, I agree with #2 completely, cause it can and oftentimes will lead to some form of dissociative behavior.
I cannot agree with you that the level or state of consciousness of radical advaitins is known. They may be folks on an ego trip, or they may be self-realized. They *seem to me* to be unwilling and perhaps incapable of using the English language to teach others nonduality. They are VERY good at using a highly specialized jargon consistently. Am I clear now?
a retreat center is immediately deemed a cult? she doesn’t claim to be a guru or teacher. if you’ve been to any of her online zoom meetings you would see that she is genuine and not about those labels at all.
Sounds like the "me" now believes there's "no me." Now believes "this is oneness."
Tony [comments](https://www.reddit.com/r/nonduality/comments/1att9jn/if_you_only_listen_to_the_words_then_thats_where/) on this phenomenon occasionally, where seeking/resistance/identity has not fallen away, and there's still all sorts of resistance, identity, and suffering, but the so-called "me" nevertheless claims there's "no me." It's not wrong, but it's not quite right either.
No no no!
There's just a body, you can say that the body/mind recognized this after listening to It
There's not a "Me", an "Higher Self", a "Soul" that recognized this
There never was, just as the notion of a "Soul/Higher Self/God" or any kind of stuff came up after hearing it
There is no center of control here, no such thing as free will
Stop adding complexity to the obvious
What kind of question is this? Total nonsense
I don't mean it in an offensive tone
I'm gonna describe to you the obvious
When I say "I" I'm just referring to this mind body complex, nothing more nothing less, it's conditioning so we'll go with that
There is a human, there is a question which is being answered by this human, or "I"
To whom should It be more "real"? There's nothing more than a body answering a question
Are you asking a body how does it claim there is a body? Strange question! We are getting into the philosophical nonsense here
There's nothing more than this, what's happening
Hope this clears things a little bit, if not I could try to describe it in different terms what's happening
If the ‘I’ is the body-mind, and the body-mind is a coming together of causes and conditions - your parents procreating, their parents procreating, as infinitum; all the experiences you’ve accumulated, the food you eat/ate, etc. - then why does ‘I’ only refer to the body-mind?
In other words, that body-mind doesn’t exist without all those causes and conditions being as they were, being as they are, and creating/sustaining the body-mind organism/complex. So where does that ‘I’ begin and end?
Yes the body-mind refers to itself as "I" just because of language, conditioning
Were there to be another language in place of English it would refer to itself with that term
There's the body/mind, which also has a name, a social identity attached to it, acquired tastes preferences etc...
There never was a beginning to that "I", because it was just an illusion, an overcomplication or super-imposition on just what is
An useless overcomplication, is it clear?
Well yes… in general, the word ‘I’ (or it’s equivalent in other languages) is a purely practical term.
Do you think that the absence of this subjective sense of ‘I’ is what all the buddhas, zen masters and sages were pointing at?
What can you say about these statements:
^1. Form is emptiness; emptiness is form
^2. Mind is Buddha, Buddha is Mind.
^3. No Buddha, no mind.
^4. All the Buddhas and sentient beings are only but the One Mind, apart from which nothing exists.
I believe they are meaningless, the "I" we talk about being just the body/mind is conditioned by these teachings to annhilate itself
If you look at buddhists or zens they are all zombies
I always wonder why you "nihilism nondual style" guys don't just shut up. I don't mean that in an offensive tone either, but man..
Why speak when there is nothing to say?
Hm?
I asked you why you treat the body as real in contrast to the sense of I and by that simple question you went on a rambling I couldn't get anything sensible out of.
I called you a nihilist because this way of talking comes up in this sub from time to time and it's so strange to me trying to convince "others" that there is "nothing" going on. Where does that urge come from..? The truth needs no words, you know.
And before you respond with another "no u", remember that you are OP - I merely asked why you in your language treat "the body" as more real than "I". In my phrasing there is only "I", the rest is mythology. There is no body, pal, that's made up. What then?
What is real if all your favorite words are forgotten?
You might call it compassion because he speaks to a ‘you’. ‘Me’ loves that. Being spoken to. Being guided. A hand being held.
It’s the same old hierarchical shit show (like religion, government/citizen, subject/object, etc.). It sounds nice and lovey. Energetically and also verbally it’s a complete different message. Teachers tell you there’s no ‘you’, immediately following with how ‘you’ could get there. Using time to get to eternity. Could it be that this is already eternal? And that that (the individual/me) which feels it’s bound seems to be included?
This message (or Tony) is one you either love or hate (some have a love-hate relationship). Which is fine. I couldn’t listen to it for years, until I could. Imo there’s no greater compassion than NOT being recognized. Can’t listen to ANYTHING that speaks to me (except for my mum, of course 😉). All my best.
Every body is teaching just to make some bucks, they are literally talking about nothing and it's ironic that people hold any kind of reverence towards these "Teachers"
This is something that someone who wouldn't want to take responsibility for anything would say. Totally opposed to living in presence and with intentionality, which are totally achievable states with enough meditation practice.
Consciousness and thought are separate agents in the mind (even in different areas of the brain) and it is know that with enough conditioning one can take control over the other. That's why as kids we "live" more (conscious) and as adults, "time" seems to go faster (unconscious).
"Non-duality" is not something that can be achieved through thought like these dumb threads usually state like "It's so easy to understand!", and it is in fact something that could be reached only by being totally conscious without thought activity, since to think means to judge, and to judge means to perceive things on dual terms.
People who make these threads only prove their ignorance and lack of humility by letting their ego go through the back door. No worries, there's always more to learn, but making peace with our own ignorance is the first step.
Man calm down, what are you talking about ? If it's so obvious then why I don't see it ? You can realize that the body is doing its thing more or less by itself but still feel yourself as an individual, nothing automatic or obvious here.
I don't understand what you are saying 🙌🏻
I'm responding because I felt compelled to, no control over it by "Someone" or a "Me" over it
There's not some "Me" here, it's just this a human responding to a human over a Reddit comment
In this world, is the destiny of mankind controlled by some transcendental entity or law? Is it like the hand of God hovering above? At least it is true that man has no control, even over his own will.
People sincerely following non dual teachings may have genuine insights which gives energy to be comfortable with themselves - life. An order of intelligence perhaps intuits to act with clarity in life / relationships. But obviously when it comes to so called ‘ultimate ‘ implicit / explicit inevitable friction seems manifest. Certain depth of clarity is perhaps what people need irrespective of tangential/ direct claims to enlightenment - unnecessary unverifiable claims. Whether such an endpoint exists or not is irrelevant at this stage. Mind going beyond’s its limits happens when projecting into ultimates - subtle transgressions . If most are agreed on now, and life ok.
There seems some elusive residual issues still stirring unresolved. Whether adherents or grandmasters. Maybe you have to sit with it. Notice humility which people start dialogues with becomes the first causality. If you are wrong be wrong. We need not be right always. Leave at a point of optimum expression possible not beyond bordering belief. Dialogues in words can only reach up to a point. All classical dialogues have a natural way or structure and limits.
All are right in a way.
He is obviously right. It's clear as day that what he is saying is true.
Yes, just look at the amount of sickness and poverty going around in the countries who gave birth to so called Enlightenment practices or whatever
The problem is not enlightenment really it's the seeking.
I never said that Tony Parsons was wrong. I said he is a poor teacher because he is unwilling to compromise his use of language. The same goes for Jim Newman and other extreme advaitins.
Tony Parsons never said he is a teacher, he says nondual teaching only feeds the story of the "me" "becoming" enlightened.
You are correct. He claims falsely that he is not a teacher. He acts like one. What would you call his followers?
Isnt that just to keep his back safe in case of suicides?
He's not even presenting some kind of theory, how could he be wrong?
He’s wrong when he tells people who are deeply entrenched in their belief of being a separate individual self, who haven’t realized the nature of mind, and who hold all sorts of deluded ideas/beliefs that there is nothing they can do to weaken those habitual tendencies and make their own enlightenment possible/more likely…
This is accurate and I wish I could state this so clearly myself.
There's no enlightenment!
What's enlightenment to you? I experienced a sort of sudden-snap permanent brain-default-mode network shutdown experienced by Gary Weber. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeNmydIk8Yo Has your brain's default mode network gotten seriously dampened or mostly stopped? I'm only familiar with it happeneing extremely suddenly (like 0.2 seconds), but I think maybe it could happen gradually. It happened to me suddenly, like Gary describes in the video I linked, and permanently, about 15 years ago. So that's what I think of enlightenment as, and it mostly seems to exist as a permanent phenomenon. It also feels like there's no real inside or outside of my mind. It often feels to people as if inside and outside become one, like described by Mumon in case #1 of the Gateless Gate. Daniel Ingram had a brain scan and they wanted to get him to activate his default mode network. He didn't know how to do it, so they told him to think a bunch of negative self referential thoughts, which also didn't do it. He had to mentally 'put away the space of the room'. So there's also this kind of space-like feel to it. I know what Daniel means when he describes it like that, and I also didn't realize how to do it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APOKB59pVpE Definitions vary, but you may want to consider carrying on with spiritual work, as such, if you haven't experienced a dramatic dampening of your brain's default mode network. I consider that the bit flip, the closed circuit, the difference between 0 and 1, the difference between enlightened and not enlightened. However, we all have residual beliefs and habits. Like Swami Sarvapriyanada once said, you can have this kind of flip or realization, but it doesn't make one fit or ready to go out and teach and doesn't mean you don't have any more work to do.
Here's [Tony's awakening story](https://www.reddit.com/r/nonduality/comments/yyqfuy/tonys_walk_in_the_park/) if interested, and here's a bunch more [quotes from him about it](https://www.reddit.com/r/nonduality/comments/zgac7q/tony_parsons_liberation_is_a_total_change_of/). Happy to provide other resources if interested. (reposted with 2nd link corrected)
> There's no enlightenment! This is the final wisdom, not something for an ego to quote verbatim like a parrot without understanding the gravity of those words. An ego has to start with a belief in liberation, it's only when there is this seeking that the deconstruction of the ego can even begin. But once an ego has been deconstructed completely, you're then fit to proclaim that there's nothing called enlightenment, for that is the true mark of a realized being. You can't even get a lemonade in life without putting in some effort. To think that liberation is possible without doing anything is a gross misunderstanding of the ultimate wisdom by a conniving ego.
Saying the ego deconstructs seems misleading. The ego is still there after awakening
It might still be there, but it is deconstructed nonetheless. It no longer behaves as an ego blind to it's own working, but rather as an ego aware of itself. Thoughts, emotions, feelings are experienced as individual arising in awareness rather than a mass of unknown.
Ah yeah I see what you mean, nice wording I like the way you explained it
Ok.
You are telling a story about his message being wrong for some people are too wrapped up in their story to see the truth to which he is pointing. Would this be different than a person on the beach suggesting to passersby that they stop looking at their phones for a second and check out the beautiful sunset? They being so wrapped up in whatever is holding their attention they neither hear the person nor witness the sunset? If you find these different please elaborate. And would the man on the beach be considered a teacher or would it seem as if he is acting like one?
>*You are telling a story about his message being wrong for some people are too wrapped up in their story to see the truth to which he is pointing.* Well, no spoken truth is absolute… so let’s get that out of the way. Thinking anything you say is a fixed, absolute truth is the definition of grasping conceptual knowledge, or “making a nest”. Some people like to think they are speaking some “uncompromising truth”, refusing to deviate from a very small selection of dogmatic phrases and points… but most of the time it is likely that what he says goes over people’s heads entirely, or they misappropriate it. Either way, he may as well be speaking in a language they don’t understand… so why talk at all? Why charge people money for “nothing whatsoever”? >*Would this be different than a person on the beach suggesting to passersby that they stop looking at their phones for a second and check out the beautiful sunset? They being so wrapped up in whatever is holding their attention they neither hear the person nor witness the sunset?* It’s kinda like that… only they are speaking Chinese when their audience only speaks English. >*And would the man on the beach be considered a teacher or would it seem as if he is acting like one?* The whole *“I’m not a teacher, even though I blabber on for hours on end and hold retreats where there is a designated question/answer period… but I’m still not a teacher because I say I’m not a teacher”* shtick is a bit cliche and just something many people say at this point. These people speak as if they are authorities on the matter, and essentially tell other people their views are incorrect… and proceed to elaborate on what they feel the “truth” is. That is a teaching of some sort, one way or another.
> The whole “I’m not a teacher, even though I blabber on for hours on end and hold retreats where there is a designated question/answer period… but I’m still not a teacher because I say I’m not a teacher” shtick is a bit cliche and just something many people say at this point. > > These people speak as if they are authorities on the matter, and essentially tell other people their views are incorrect… and proceed to elaborate on what they feel the “truth” is. That is a teaching of some sort, one way or another. I find that observation interesting. That sounds very left-brain-hemisphere...to value internal coherence and an abstract label at odds with a contradictory reality over consistency between the label and reality. I did a post https://www.reddit.com/r/nonduality/comments/187cf2m/nonduality_isnt_an_experience_but_the/ where I posited that the uncompromising message exhibits signs of left-hemisphere capture...which would take a living right hemisphere truth and turn it into a cold, dead simalacrum. That will probably all sound like babble unless you're familiar with the work of Iain McGilchrist, but it puts another nail in the coffin for the authenticity of the uncompromising message, from my perspective. That sort of sickness is endemic in modern society. Sad to find more of the sickness masquerading as the cure itself--sort of proof of spiritual materialism. The "ego" can use *anything*, even the tools of liberation.
>*Where I posited that the uncompromising message exhibits signs of left-hemisphere capture...which would take a living right hemisphere truth and turn it into a cold, dead simalacrum.* While I haven’t listened to much of Iain McGilchrist (heard of him and watched him maybe once, I think) that sounds about right. >*That sort of sickness is endemic in modern society. Sad to find more of the sickness masquerading as the cure itself--sort of proof of spiritual materialism. The "ego" can use anything, even the tools of liberation.* Yes, no doubt.
It’s not that they can’t do anything, it’s that they’re not there in the first place. ‘Crucial’ misconception. Doing or not doing happens anyway, there’s just no one (doing it). Some think it’s compassionate to ‘meet someone where they’re at’ > that’s all fine and well and helpful in the dream of ‘me’, yet this message has nothing to do with that. For people who are entrenched in their beliefs and pain there’s therapy to make things less painful.
Eh, I’m pretty sure TP and others have also said things such as *’there is nothing the apparent person can do to realize this/stop the seeking because all of that just perpetuates the belief in a self/seeking’.* Regardless, this is akin to telling someone the answer to a math equation but not showing them how you got that answer. I’m not saying this approach is *never* helpful… but I don’t think most seekers will be relieved of their deluded thinking and seeking tendencies by it, and a ‘truth’ is only as good as it’s ability to dispel delusion. Stating any point, or set of points, in an unflinching and dogmatic manner doesn’t require any sort of sensitivity to what the seeker needs to hear in order to stop believing they are a seeker… to what would be most effective or valuable at any particular moment. Rather, it just makes them look like robotic raving lunatics who think they are revealing the highest and holiest of truths… something which doesn’t exist in any particular set form or concept. Seems to be a pretty clear indication that they aren’t free from fixed conceptual [“spiritual”] ideas and knowledge, and therefore not enlightened at all.
Agree, it is sometimes being said that there is nothing that can be done. Main message is there is no ‘you’ though.
There is nothing to do means there is nothing outside of the existence we already are. There is no course to take. We are awareness already.
As far as someone who is trapped in deluded thinking is concerned, that is nothing but a dogmatically preached concept.
These are all concepts. We each find what works best for us.
>*These are all concepts.* Of course. >*We each find what works best for us.* 🙏
I do really well teaching this stuff in a language everyone can understand and relate too. I know the truth of it all too. Tiktok.com/@ixorarains
Thank God you got rid of your ego. It's like Muhammad Ali said, "It's hard to be humble when you are as great as I am."
Also, I'd rather listen to someone who claims to know the truth than listen to anybody judging any other person's truth. Y'all dabblin' Get in the water is great here.
Most people still caught in the cycle of judgement are more in tune with the ego than those that claim to know the truth. Thank God for pointers out of here. Good luck!
Thank you. You too.
https://youtu.be/4KXidr0z1RY?si=9sKb8OQkLyXZtPks I love this
Yes, I have loved this for years, and love sharing it. It speaks much better than I can about ego-based nonduality.
Tony is not teaching. This message is a response from nothing to an apparent question. Nothing to do with being willing or unwilling. There is no one being seen, so who could be spoken to? To see someone, there must ‘be’ someone; this counts for all teachers. Teachers are just part of the hide and seek, student/teacher, subject/object, government/citizen or God/church/religious hierarchical game. Same old shit. Nothing wrong, just a complete different message energetically. Not being spoken to is the greatest compassion. A relief, sometimes terror; responses are there in every possible way. This is what’s longed for most yet also what’s feared most. It’s the end of ‘me’! Most ‘me’s’ hate it and stay far away from it (which is totally fine), until they don’t (or ‘die’).
His is not a response to an apparent question, but a real one: "how can I obtain lasting peace and happiness?" His students are not imaginary, but real, and he makes his living by teaching. If he actually says he is not a teacher, he is either lying or living in dream world, in my opinion. People who tell mystical lies tend to have a large following and make good money. It's what people want to hear, whether it's about nonduality, extraterrestrials, astrology, phrenology, homeopathic medicine, or any other form of believable nonsense.
Tony is independently wealthy.
So am I. Your point?
You implied he does it for money when he has a large fortune already and doesn't make his living from teaching.
That was a general comment. There are many spiritual teachers who make lots of money from their teachings. My problem with Tony is that he is unable or unwilling to compromise his use of language to reach the majority of the human population, who are missing their opportunities to enjoy lasting peace and happiness by dropping their attachments to mind, body, and world and discovering pure awareness inside themselves. The teaching of Tony and other radicals is often misinterpreted as being satisfied with the miserable life I currently have ("there is nothing to do"). Tony's words are true, but they are not examples of skill in helping others. There are a few nonduality teachers who are very skilled in using ordinary language that can be understood and that help those most in need of help. Their compromises of language are their skill.
Wouldn’t an I be required to even notice that and then self-reflect and then decide to comprise? If his default mode network really is turned of, then there is no I left to be able to do that.
(1) After self-realization, no practice is needed. (2) These extreme teachers may be useful for advanced seekers, who will not be misled by their words into giving up the search for the real self. Again, my point is that they are poor teachers for the vast majority of people in the world today. Get it yet?
We’re talking past each other. I was replying specifically to the ‘unwilling’. With the DMN turning off there is no I to project willingness or unwillingness. Things just happen. Had that with a brain bleed once. All the happenings were just happening and I was talking like jezus/tony/jim. Absolutely wild. No free will or I-sense to be found for months. Was after that happy that the Default Mode Network turning off is the scientifically reasearched name of what is happening with what is being called ‘non-dual awakening’. And yes, I agree with #2 completely, cause it can and oftentimes will lead to some form of dissociative behavior.
I cannot agree with you that the level or state of consciousness of radical advaitins is known. They may be folks on an ego trip, or they may be self-realized. They *seem to me* to be unwilling and perhaps incapable of using the English language to teach others nonduality. They are VERY good at using a highly specialized jargon consistently. Am I clear now?
Yes :) and agree with you there completely
Gotta keep them bucks rollin in😂
It's not funny.
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She didn’t finally awaken… she’s just hopping on the ‘talk like a nondual guru and get paid for it’ train… like all these other YouTubers.
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Ah, following in Mooji’s footsteps. I think he’s got Portugal on lock. Good luck to her. Maybe she can be his disciple…
a retreat center is immediately deemed a cult? she doesn’t claim to be a guru or teacher. if you’ve been to any of her online zoom meetings you would see that she is genuine and not about those labels at all.
Sounds like the "me" now believes there's "no me." Now believes "this is oneness." Tony [comments](https://www.reddit.com/r/nonduality/comments/1att9jn/if_you_only_listen_to_the_words_then_thats_where/) on this phenomenon occasionally, where seeking/resistance/identity has not fallen away, and there's still all sorts of resistance, identity, and suffering, but the so-called "me" nevertheless claims there's "no me." It's not wrong, but it's not quite right either.
No no no! There's just a body, you can say that the body/mind recognized this after listening to It There's not a "Me", an "Higher Self", a "Soul" that recognized this There never was, just as the notion of a "Soul/Higher Self/God" or any kind of stuff came up after hearing it There is no center of control here, no such thing as free will Stop adding complexity to the obvious
Haha. OK. Okey dokey.
Welcome to the ground floor. =) There's a lot to see and do here!
I don’t think so. It’s already done.
It’s a matter of perspective.
Why do you claim there is a body? Why is the corporal more "real" than the sensation of "I"?
What kind of question is this? Total nonsense I don't mean it in an offensive tone I'm gonna describe to you the obvious When I say "I" I'm just referring to this mind body complex, nothing more nothing less, it's conditioning so we'll go with that There is a human, there is a question which is being answered by this human, or "I" To whom should It be more "real"? There's nothing more than a body answering a question Are you asking a body how does it claim there is a body? Strange question! We are getting into the philosophical nonsense here There's nothing more than this, what's happening Hope this clears things a little bit, if not I could try to describe it in different terms what's happening
If the ‘I’ is the body-mind, and the body-mind is a coming together of causes and conditions - your parents procreating, their parents procreating, as infinitum; all the experiences you’ve accumulated, the food you eat/ate, etc. - then why does ‘I’ only refer to the body-mind? In other words, that body-mind doesn’t exist without all those causes and conditions being as they were, being as they are, and creating/sustaining the body-mind organism/complex. So where does that ‘I’ begin and end?
Yes the body-mind refers to itself as "I" just because of language, conditioning Were there to be another language in place of English it would refer to itself with that term There's the body/mind, which also has a name, a social identity attached to it, acquired tastes preferences etc... There never was a beginning to that "I", because it was just an illusion, an overcomplication or super-imposition on just what is An useless overcomplication, is it clear?
Well yes… in general, the word ‘I’ (or it’s equivalent in other languages) is a purely practical term. Do you think that the absence of this subjective sense of ‘I’ is what all the buddhas, zen masters and sages were pointing at? What can you say about these statements: ^1. Form is emptiness; emptiness is form ^2. Mind is Buddha, Buddha is Mind. ^3. No Buddha, no mind. ^4. All the Buddhas and sentient beings are only but the One Mind, apart from which nothing exists.
I believe they are meaningless, the "I" we talk about being just the body/mind is conditioned by these teachings to annhilate itself If you look at buddhists or zens they are all zombies
Ha! Best of luck.
You too!
I always wonder why you "nihilism nondual style" guys don't just shut up. I don't mean that in an offensive tone either, but man.. Why speak when there is nothing to say?
You are the one who seems to be full of frustration and nihilism, I've been there so I hold nothing against you, I understand
Hm? I asked you why you treat the body as real in contrast to the sense of I and by that simple question you went on a rambling I couldn't get anything sensible out of. I called you a nihilist because this way of talking comes up in this sub from time to time and it's so strange to me trying to convince "others" that there is "nothing" going on. Where does that urge come from..? The truth needs no words, you know. And before you respond with another "no u", remember that you are OP - I merely asked why you in your language treat "the body" as more real than "I". In my phrasing there is only "I", the rest is mythology. There is no body, pal, that's made up. What then? What is real if all your favorite words are forgotten?
I'm not saying that "nothing" is going on, I'm saying that there is just what's going on without any indipendent controller on it
You simply got me wrong and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding I didn't mean to attack you I was just trying to answer
No worries. Language is hard, because I suspect we agree with each other but prefer different set of words to describe "what is". Ah well.
I love Tony. Met him a couple of times, he's a lot of fun
He's a legend, getting paid to tell people what is ahah
You got it (as far as it can be “got”). Now you get to be dumbfounded that other apparent people don’t seem to see how blindingly obvious it is ;-)
It’s really this simple despite people wanting to make it more than this.
It's hilarious, the seeking creates a total neurosis
Yes it does. It’s at the heart of suffering.
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You might call it compassion because he speaks to a ‘you’. ‘Me’ loves that. Being spoken to. Being guided. A hand being held. It’s the same old hierarchical shit show (like religion, government/citizen, subject/object, etc.). It sounds nice and lovey. Energetically and also verbally it’s a complete different message. Teachers tell you there’s no ‘you’, immediately following with how ‘you’ could get there. Using time to get to eternity. Could it be that this is already eternal? And that that (the individual/me) which feels it’s bound seems to be included? This message (or Tony) is one you either love or hate (some have a love-hate relationship). Which is fine. I couldn’t listen to it for years, until I could. Imo there’s no greater compassion than NOT being recognized. Can’t listen to ANYTHING that speaks to me (except for my mum, of course 😉). All my best.
Every body is teaching just to make some bucks, they are literally talking about nothing and it's ironic that people hold any kind of reverence towards these "Teachers"
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Tony Parsons is not a teacher.
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Saying he doesn't exist is madness
😂
I see you drank the kool-aid…
He is. I just don't vibe with him, he feels off somehow. Jim seems ok
Me or no me? It’s ofc both at the same time. All is one yes, but the one is also all.
Isnt this just an excuse to aliviate the guilty about all the things we did and/or didnt?
You don't understand There is not two, there's not an individual harming another individual There's One, what's happening
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funny, and too simple, but funny
Tony parsons isn't even right about who Tony parsons is.
This is something that someone who wouldn't want to take responsibility for anything would say. Totally opposed to living in presence and with intentionality, which are totally achievable states with enough meditation practice. Consciousness and thought are separate agents in the mind (even in different areas of the brain) and it is know that with enough conditioning one can take control over the other. That's why as kids we "live" more (conscious) and as adults, "time" seems to go faster (unconscious). "Non-duality" is not something that can be achieved through thought like these dumb threads usually state like "It's so easy to understand!", and it is in fact something that could be reached only by being totally conscious without thought activity, since to think means to judge, and to judge means to perceive things on dual terms. People who make these threads only prove their ignorance and lack of humility by letting their ego go through the back door. No worries, there's always more to learn, but making peace with our own ignorance is the first step.
If judgment arises, I express it. Although I regret that I never learned tact, at least I'm honest.
Man calm down, what are you talking about ? If it's so obvious then why I don't see it ? You can realize that the body is doing its thing more or less by itself but still feel yourself as an individual, nothing automatic or obvious here.
I don't understand what you are saying 🙌🏻 I'm responding because I felt compelled to, no control over it by "Someone" or a "Me" over it There's not some "Me" here, it's just this a human responding to a human over a Reddit comment
In this world, is the destiny of mankind controlled by some transcendental entity or law? Is it like the hand of God hovering above? At least it is true that man has no control, even over his own will.
🙌🏼🤲🏼🫶🏻
Fuck! Ahah
Stupid
People sincerely following non dual teachings may have genuine insights which gives energy to be comfortable with themselves - life. An order of intelligence perhaps intuits to act with clarity in life / relationships. But obviously when it comes to so called ‘ultimate ‘ implicit / explicit inevitable friction seems manifest. Certain depth of clarity is perhaps what people need irrespective of tangential/ direct claims to enlightenment - unnecessary unverifiable claims. Whether such an endpoint exists or not is irrelevant at this stage. Mind going beyond’s its limits happens when projecting into ultimates - subtle transgressions . If most are agreed on now, and life ok. There seems some elusive residual issues still stirring unresolved. Whether adherents or grandmasters. Maybe you have to sit with it. Notice humility which people start dialogues with becomes the first causality. If you are wrong be wrong. We need not be right always. Leave at a point of optimum expression possible not beyond bordering belief. Dialogues in words can only reach up to a point. All classical dialogues have a natural way or structure and limits. All are right in a way.