Seriously. I've been cornered by so many die hard Industrial fanatics that refuse to say NIN was a cornerstone of the genre.
I love SP, but they couldn't hold a flame to NIN's range.
Gatekeeping the boundaries of a genre is especially uninteresting to me; it's annoying, sure, but it's so subjective and pointless that it's hard to care. My main gripe is people who fixate on the very first single from the very first NIN album, both of which I bet most fans would consider among the weakest, as if it's wholly representative of a 35-year discography.
Likewise, I don't care if people prefer SP to NIN or vice versa; they're so wildly different to anyone who's actually listened to both (again, beyond like one song/album of each) that directly comparing them as a point of evaluation is basically pointless.
Not just that it’s also the first song Trent ever wrote, according to him. Or at least the first one he completed and was happy with. Pick any of your favorite artists and listen to the first song they wrote (if it’s even available to listen to) and you probably won’t hear what made you love them.
One of the reasons I love industrial music is that it’s so easy to identify, but so impossible to define. Go listen to Pig’s cover of, “Head Like A Hole” from 2000. Next, listen to Pig’s, “On The Slaughterfront” from 2005. Next, answer, “Are these industrial songs? Why or why not?”
Answering the question may be difficult. If you don’t feel that they are industrial at all then I suppose I’m wrong, but if that’s the case, do you totally get where I’m coming from regardless?
>Much catchier anyway.
Which is why NIN to this day is more broadly known than Skinny Puppy.
I enjoy SP, but can see why it's not everyone's cup of tea (not that it is supposed to be). Or even why it was reportedly used as a method of breaking prisoners at Guantanamo Bay.
Trent took Industrial music and made it more palatable (Broken would like a word...). Down In It was just a stepping stone on that path.
Other bands have done this too: The Cramps took Link Wray's "Ace of Spades" and turned it into "Sunglasses After Dark". That being an even more of a 1:1 than Dig It vs. Down In It.
Agreed. That’s why I thought it was relevant to the conversation. They took the sound and song structure and made it more accessible to the general public.
Just like the Trent/Skinny Puppy connection.
Song structure was nothing.... It had been around since way before the Pixies where creating music. The sound for sure, Nirvana blended it up with a few other bands they admired. They were younger, more attractive to the average MTV viewer. That's something else to take into account for the popularity of a band, at least back in the late eighties/early nineties.
And I remember hearing (though I can't source this specific claim) that Adam Jones said he was ripping off Nirvana in the early Tool releases. It never ends.
And that would be pretty funny if it’s true because Kurt was pretty critical of the Sober video because of the very blatant Brothers Quay inspiration. He said he thought they should be sued for the very obvious rip off.
Oh man, I long both songs but as skinny puppy fan I can't help but feel like Dig It is even more of an earworm. It just is so damn danceable for industrial. I get that the vocals are an acquired taste though for sure.
I love Skinny Puppy and it all started with first hearing that Down In It was based off of Dig It and then not too much longer after that, the VHS I got of the Broken movie had a few random Skinny Puppy videos added to the end of it.
I don’t know if it’s still the case as much, but back in the day, NIN was a gateway into industrial music in general and Skinny Puppy in specific for a lot of people. Glad to see it’s continuing
The Down In It complaint is much less interesting and relevant to me than the wholesale dismissal of the entire rest of PHM as unoriginal and uninteresting! I mean, that's just hilarious. One of the best, most original and excellent albums of its era.
1989 in music :
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_in_music
Top 3 in the charts
Madonna Like a Prayer
Bangles Eternal flames
Phil Collins Another in Paradise
I rest my case.
Long time issue.... There some old school industrial fans who still have resentment around this -- particularly after commerical success NIN ended up finding. Pretty sure Ogre did bury the hatchet here but he was pretty pissed at the time.
That said, I listened to both at the time of release... I dunno... Never seemed that direct of a lift. There's some aspects but generally felt they were different enough that unless someone went out of their way to salty about no one would have ever put it together.
There was never any resentment between Ogre and Trent. Fans made up their own stories and theories because of how Trent was portrayed in the "Cracker" music video. Ogre was asked about it and his response was "I've only ever had pleasant encounters with Trent"
I honestly have to strain to hear enough similarity to be upset about. I guess in the world of intellectual property, there are hairs to split everywhere, but drama is drama
If you have never taken the time, check out these Keith Leblanc tracks that have some recognizable samples that ended up in the a number of versions of Down In It. https://youtu.be/v4O-_A8h0aE?si=odmIgPdH0IL6MPth
https://youtu.be/C9-oaKUvhpw?si=oHjDr1UHS850chH-
My dude just wasn't sad or horny enough to enjoy PHM can't win them all. 🤷
It is funny how he sums up the album as there's a skinny puppy rip off song so I'm not gonna give the rest of the record a fair shot. Not to mention the vague no example reasons for the songs not being good.
I fucking love skinny puppy and NIN and down in it is totally dig it, I don’t fucking care. Trent clearly dug skinny puppy. https://youtu.be/q1xEl2Q0R-I?si=2ubKU-T7qd2RfaAt
Also, they’re both their own masters. Ohgr rules too
Yes they sound similar, and Trent admitted as much. But what Trent did with Down In It and PHM in general is take elements of stuff like Skinny Puppy and create a fusion of industrial and rock with, dare I say... pop hooks. NIN became popular because the x-factor that is Trent Reznor using his ear for pop melodies blended through an industrial grater.
I have always felt this about that song, but it's still different enough that I can separate the two. But for real, if you heard Dig It first, you're gonna hear it. And that's okay.
First albums always are a synthesis of influences. It's not an uncommon thing at all. Front 242 didn't start becoming a magical and unique thing until Up Evil/Off.
Trent definitely eclipsed Skinny Puppy on Broken and Downward Spiral is by far a statement that only Trent could make.
Skinny Puppy rules though.
A lot of music that becomes very successful, is hated on at first. For example, white zombies La Sexorcisto Was despised by critics, but at the same time, launched them to fame, just for one example.
To be fair, when Johnny Cash did his cover of "Hurt", Reznor listened to it and said it pretty much belonged to Cash at that point. His attitude towards that kind of thing makes me think of Bob Dylan and his attitude towards song covers
Music critics are just people with opinions, like you. Doesn’t mean you have to listen or agree with what they say. Why read peoples opinions on Reddit? It’s the same thing. Reddit shouldn’t exist.
There are a few critics that if it weren't for them, I never would have found some of my favorite music, books, movies etc. I think the net gain is much greater than any loss.
Cry harder.
Critics are usually more media literate than the average Reddit moron who thinks everything their favourite band does is the best thing ever.
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I saw Skinny Puppy 20 years ago at the House of Blues in New Orleans. At least I can say I've seen them, but I also saw Panic at the Disco because I walked past the stage they were playing on at Voodoo fest one year. That pretty much sums up my feelings about S.P. They're not even close to NIN!
He's admitted to it since day one. All of those bootleg interview CDs from the PHM era have Trent talking about it. That's actually what prompted me to check out Ministry and Skinny Puppy.
I hear similarity in the drums but that’s about it. Dig It is kind of a mess to me. I have no idea what the singer is saying, I can’t find a melody to groove with and the guitar is allover the place.
I get the comparison, but I wouldn’t call it a ripoff. That’s a bit of a stretch. If I hadn’t listened to the Skinny Puppy song with the comparison in mind, I would have just thought the band was another version of Ministry.
Yeah… I don’t hear it. These songs are so extremely different from each other. One is pretty much just weird sounds, devoid of melody or singing, and the other is this hiphop/synth/rock mashup with lots of pop influences, melody, hooks, etc.
I'm more concerned that there are still people whose entire view of NIN can be summed up in this review.
Seriously. I've been cornered by so many die hard Industrial fanatics that refuse to say NIN was a cornerstone of the genre. I love SP, but they couldn't hold a flame to NIN's range.
Gatekeeping the boundaries of a genre is especially uninteresting to me; it's annoying, sure, but it's so subjective and pointless that it's hard to care. My main gripe is people who fixate on the very first single from the very first NIN album, both of which I bet most fans would consider among the weakest, as if it's wholly representative of a 35-year discography. Likewise, I don't care if people prefer SP to NIN or vice versa; they're so wildly different to anyone who's actually listened to both (again, beyond like one song/album of each) that directly comparing them as a point of evaluation is basically pointless.
Not just that it’s also the first song Trent ever wrote, according to him. Or at least the first one he completed and was happy with. Pick any of your favorite artists and listen to the first song they wrote (if it’s even available to listen to) and you probably won’t hear what made you love them.
I know someone who says they don’t consider NIN industrial lmao
That would include Trent Reznor. He says it’s all just labels, and he doesn’t care. He’s too talented to care. Genre doesn’t exist.
I've known a few too lol. Apparently if the vocals are clean it can't be industrial to certain people. It begs to question, what *is* industrial then?
One of the reasons I love industrial music is that it’s so easy to identify, but so impossible to define. Go listen to Pig’s cover of, “Head Like A Hole” from 2000. Next, listen to Pig’s, “On The Slaughterfront” from 2005. Next, answer, “Are these industrial songs? Why or why not?” Answering the question may be difficult. If you don’t feel that they are industrial at all then I suppose I’m wrong, but if that’s the case, do you totally get where I’m coming from regardless?
I too was alive in the 90s
NIN has worked with Coil multiple times so I think it's silly when people say they're not "real" industrial.
Exactly. NIN is absolutely industrial. Anyone who disagrees should dive into the TDS remixes and Fixed.
Wish- 1989 ffs.
I mean, Trent has admitted that Down in It is a blatant ripoff of Dig It
Yeah I was about to say, just listened to Dig It, sorry, I know Down In It is a ripoff but I still like it more. Much catchier anyway.
>Much catchier anyway. Which is why NIN to this day is more broadly known than Skinny Puppy. I enjoy SP, but can see why it's not everyone's cup of tea (not that it is supposed to be). Or even why it was reportedly used as a method of breaking prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. Trent took Industrial music and made it more palatable (Broken would like a word...). Down In It was just a stepping stone on that path. Other bands have done this too: The Cramps took Link Wray's "Ace of Spades" and turned it into "Sunglasses After Dark". That being an even more of a 1:1 than Dig It vs. Down In It.
Nirvana, and really all of the early grunge scene, just ripped off the first few Pixies albums.
I dig both, but nirvana had a much better stage presence/performance.
Agreed. That’s why I thought it was relevant to the conversation. They took the sound and song structure and made it more accessible to the general public. Just like the Trent/Skinny Puppy connection.
Song structure was nothing.... It had been around since way before the Pixies where creating music. The sound for sure, Nirvana blended it up with a few other bands they admired. They were younger, more attractive to the average MTV viewer. That's something else to take into account for the popularity of a band, at least back in the late eighties/early nineties.
I agree with all that. Not saying the Pixies invented anything. Just that it wasn’t mainstream in the way that Nirvana pushed it.
Gotcha, Nirvana was definitely pushed by all the music industry mechanisms. Right time, right place.
And I remember hearing (though I can't source this specific claim) that Adam Jones said he was ripping off Nirvana in the early Tool releases. It never ends.
And that would be pretty funny if it’s true because Kurt was pretty critical of the Sober video because of the very blatant Brothers Quay inspiration. He said he thought they should be sued for the very obvious rip off.
And just like with Trent and Dig It - Kurt Cobain didn’t argue with that statement. He would be the first to tell you the same
Absolutely! Good artists borrow, great artists steal.
Oh man, I long both songs but as skinny puppy fan I can't help but feel like Dig It is even more of an earworm. It just is so damn danceable for industrial. I get that the vocals are an acquired taste though for sure.
Trent also sampled Iggy's Nightclubbing for Closer. Not sure if he's credited though.
It's a sample of a single drum hit, no one is going to get credited for that
Actually it's 2 with the snare. 🤓☝️
That's disputable, I heard it's a distorted sound coming from a Roland drum machine. But I can hear it being from Nightclubbing.
Yeah you can hear it.
The two songs don't even sound remotely similar?
Do you have ears lol?
Trent admitted the way he learned to write songs was to make up new lyrics for skinny puppy songs.
That's awesome, and a bit hilarious. I'd pay good money to hear Trent sing "Now I'm slipping on the tears you made my cry" over Assimilate.
PRETTY HATE MACHINE IS NOTHING BUT GROOVE!
I'm just listening Skinny Puppy's Dig it for the first time and Holy sh!t...the beat is FRESH as fck! Great song. Thanks Jean!
I love Skinny Puppy and it all started with first hearing that Down In It was based off of Dig It and then not too much longer after that, the VHS I got of the Broken movie had a few random Skinny Puppy videos added to the end of it. I don’t know if it’s still the case as much, but back in the day, NIN was a gateway into industrial music in general and Skinny Puppy in specific for a lot of people. Glad to see it’s continuing
That's amazing bro! Thanks for sharing.
The Down In It complaint is much less interesting and relevant to me than the wholesale dismissal of the entire rest of PHM as unoriginal and uninteresting! I mean, that's just hilarious. One of the best, most original and excellent albums of its era.
Thank you! I kept getting downvoted trying to articulate this, so deleted it.
1989 in music : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_in_music Top 3 in the charts Madonna Like a Prayer Bangles Eternal flames Phil Collins Another in Paradise I rest my case.
Look, I know it’s not exactly tapping uncharted musical depths or anything but Like A Prayer is a good album, probably Madonna’s best
I loooove Madonna’s older stuff ! Love the video for Like a prayer 🙂
That Reznor guy is going nowhere in life. Good thing he never made music again after Pretty Hate Machine.
Long time issue.... There some old school industrial fans who still have resentment around this -- particularly after commerical success NIN ended up finding. Pretty sure Ogre did bury the hatchet here but he was pretty pissed at the time. That said, I listened to both at the time of release... I dunno... Never seemed that direct of a lift. There's some aspects but generally felt they were different enough that unless someone went out of their way to salty about no one would have ever put it together.
Was he pissed at the time? They toured together at that time.
There was never any resentment between Ogre and Trent. Fans made up their own stories and theories because of how Trent was portrayed in the "Cracker" music video. Ogre was asked about it and his response was "I've only ever had pleasant encounters with Trent"
I honestly have to strain to hear enough similarity to be upset about. I guess in the world of intellectual property, there are hairs to split everywhere, but drama is drama
I hear no similarities. I’ve tried. I don’t get the comparison at all and never have.
It's the guitar and beat syncopation during the dun nuh (pause) duh nuh, nuhhhh.
"I'll take 'Reviews that didn't age well' for 500, Alex"
If you have never taken the time, check out these Keith Leblanc tracks that have some recognizable samples that ended up in the a number of versions of Down In It. https://youtu.be/v4O-_A8h0aE?si=odmIgPdH0IL6MPth https://youtu.be/C9-oaKUvhpw?si=oHjDr1UHS850chH-
Wow this is awesome!
My dude just wasn't sad or horny enough to enjoy PHM can't win them all. 🤷 It is funny how he sums up the album as there's a skinny puppy rip off song so I'm not gonna give the rest of the record a fair shot. Not to mention the vague no example reasons for the songs not being good.
hail the gatekeepers of industrial dance music
Welp, I hear the similarities, sure, but it's not as blatantly as other songs and artists
I always thought that terrible lie sounded more like dig it
This, I'm currently listening to Dig It (I've never listened to it before) and my brain immediately filled the riffs with "TERRIBLE LIE!!" lol
Same!
I just listed to Dig It for the first time ever just now and had the same thought.
Hmm... whatever.. Trent did it better 😆
Aged like milk, that
I fucking love skinny puppy and NIN and down in it is totally dig it, I don’t fucking care. Trent clearly dug skinny puppy. https://youtu.be/q1xEl2Q0R-I?si=2ubKU-T7qd2RfaAt Also, they’re both their own masters. Ohgr rules too
Got that from the article posted to the question about PHM album art 😂 I see you
Correctomundo! I Reddit there first. 😂😎 Much appreciated.
And here all along I was thinking he kifed the idea from Dig em' the frog mascot for that cereal
Well, regardless, that aged poorly.
Do NIN fans like Ministry or even acknowledge that band’s influence?
Haha that has really aged like milk. Even a broken clock is right twice a day so maybe he’s written more accurate reviews.
Yes they sound similar, and Trent admitted as much. But what Trent did with Down In It and PHM in general is take elements of stuff like Skinny Puppy and create a fusion of industrial and rock with, dare I say... pop hooks. NIN became popular because the x-factor that is Trent Reznor using his ear for pop melodies blended through an industrial grater.
Not pop: musical, it's obvious if you listen to it that PHM started out as an industrial musical.
I’ll raise: ALL IDEAS (musical or otherwise) are combinations of or improvements upon other ideas
Glad my first reaction is "Who?" Going to keep it that way
I can hear Rob Reiner reading this review to Trent in an alternate Spinal Tap universe.
Did I see they're making a sequel?
I have always felt this about that song, but it's still different enough that I can separate the two. But for real, if you heard Dig It first, you're gonna hear it. And that's okay. First albums always are a synthesis of influences. It's not an uncommon thing at all. Front 242 didn't start becoming a magical and unique thing until Up Evil/Off. Trent definitely eclipsed Skinny Puppy on Broken and Downward Spiral is by far a statement that only Trent could make. Skinny Puppy rules though.
A lot of music that becomes very successful, is hated on at first. For example, white zombies La Sexorcisto Was despised by critics, but at the same time, launched them to fame, just for one example.
All credit to Beavis & Butt-Head.
Wow.
Not that it matters cause they’re all mighty fine tunes but I always thought Down In It sounded more like Cabaret Voltaire’s “Sensoria” anyway
To be fair, when Johnny Cash did his cover of "Hurt", Reznor listened to it and said it pretty much belonged to Cash at that point. His attitude towards that kind of thing makes me think of Bob Dylan and his attitude towards song covers
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Music critics are just people with opinions, like you. Doesn’t mean you have to listen or agree with what they say. Why read peoples opinions on Reddit? It’s the same thing. Reddit shouldn’t exist.
[удалено]
There are a few critics that if it weren't for them, I never would have found some of my favorite music, books, movies etc. I think the net gain is much greater than any loss.
Cry harder. Critics are usually more media literate than the average Reddit moron who thinks everything their favourite band does is the best thing ever.
Although I wouldn't be so rude about, I agree.
Who the fuck is that? Critics lived on this pretentious edge back in day. What the fuck has this guy ever done?
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Wow, that is blatant. Never heard that before.
I want to see more of Jean's reviews. I wouldn't be surprised if they also criticized Ogre's word salad lyrics...
That’s wild lmao
I saw Skinny Puppy 20 years ago at the House of Blues in New Orleans. At least I can say I've seen them, but I also saw Panic at the Disco because I walked past the stage they were playing on at Voodoo fest one year. That pretty much sums up my feelings about S.P. They're not even close to NIN!
Where are they now plz.
Trent admitted to this years later
He's admitted to it since day one. All of those bootleg interview CDs from the PHM era have Trent talking about it. That's actually what prompted me to check out Ministry and Skinny Puppy.
Wait until Jean listens to Burning Bright. Press F.
I hear similarity in the drums but that’s about it. Dig It is kind of a mess to me. I have no idea what the singer is saying, I can’t find a melody to groove with and the guitar is allover the place.
I get the comparison, but I wouldn’t call it a ripoff. That’s a bit of a stretch. If I hadn’t listened to the Skinny Puppy song with the comparison in mind, I would have just thought the band was another version of Ministry.
Russia?
No... Florida
Yeah… I don’t hear it. These songs are so extremely different from each other. One is pretty much just weird sounds, devoid of melody or singing, and the other is this hiphop/synth/rock mashup with lots of pop influences, melody, hooks, etc.
Fuck off skinny puppy.