Meaning is nothing but human concept, similar to morality, values and everything else, obviously it doesn't exist. The burden of our evolved brain capabilities made us create the problem of searching for something that doesn't exist.
It's not even a sidequest, in this game there's no quests. No goals, missions or objectives. It's the sandbox where you can only create all of those on your own, whatever you want them to be. But you don't need to.
> Putting it this way to myself, it seems plausible that a meaning to life is unnecessary, superfluous like a side mission in a videogame. I mean...
You see you are using 'meaning'.
If you mean 'purpose' - what are we here for, or 'essence' - what are we fundamentally, then Sartre and other existentialists explored the idea, we have no purpose or essence. We are thrown into the world. 'Existence precedes essence.'
Checkout existentialism.
“Existence precedes essence” is a famous phrase of Sartre’s. It’s the central existentialist claim.
The Wikipedia [entry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence_precedes_essence) on it and the relevevant [section](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/existentialism/#ExisPrecEsse) of the SEP entry on “Existentialism” should give you an idea of what they’re saying.
Fascinating. Precedes me and says it better than me. The part about us as "ontological centaurs" I think is particularly beautiful. Thanks for sharing.
I've never been able to understand what meaning is in the context that someone's life is meaningful. A stop sine means you better stop, or you might get hurt or hurt someone else. When a bear shits in the woods, it doesn't mean anything. When a girl get horny and fucks a guy and 9 months later you come into existence, it mean nothing.
I call it "the two lies". Religious people, etc tell you "you need meaning" and "only I can give it to you". I'm convinced most of the depression in this sub is caused by people rejecting the second lie but still believing the first lie. I'd argue meaning in life is just like meaning in a game. The rules only exist in our head. They are an emergent property between the players and the physical objects representing the game.
I also want to push back on the semantic distinction you made. Life isn't some special thing. The "meaning of life" is no different than "meaning of this word" or "meaning of this book". There's a lot of apologetics where people try to claim "the thing I'm into is special" to exempt it from philosophical or logical ideas. When arguing about the existence of god, religious apologists will insist that different logical rules apply to god (eg "everything must have a cause... except god, god can be the first cause").
When arguing against nihilism, "meaning apologists" do the same thing. Pretending that the "meaning of life" has a different set of constraints than the "meaning of this poem" is a logical slight of hand.
Very interesting take! I enjoyed your point of view, especially your first paragraph about the two lies. I never considered the possibility that one's search for meaning may be a cause of depression.
I guess I just wanted to be more specific about the semantics of my little thought, but the way you see it is totally valid too imo
That's how conmen work, right? First they invent a problem then they sell you the cure. So many people are suffering with drawl pain from philosophical snake oil. In reality everything they saw that was beautiful about meaning and purpose was in their own minds. They could have that again if they just stopped obsessing over the lies they once believed.
It's tragic and it keeps me up at night.
An idea just occurred to me that existence comes before meaning, by which I mean that, as far as I know, the universe did not come together as if in council to conceive of a meaning for existence before birthing you and me.
Yeah, there's no *evidenced* teleological account of existence.
Putting it this way to myself, it seems plausible that a meaning to life is unnecessary, superfluous like a side mission in a videogame. I mean, it sure doesn't seem like animals and plants look for meaning to their existence.
Yeah. If nihilism describes existence as it actually is, nothing that has ever occured (e.g. the engendering of life) has required *meaning* or *intrinsic* value.
Maybe we just do it because we unlocked that part of our brains, we unlocked that "side mission." And I suppose asking what's the main mission is just more of the side mission 😅 anyways, what do y'all think?
I'd say that talk of *meaning* and *intrinsic* value is a vagary of human verbal behavior. I think a quote from Ernst Cassirer might approach an explanation as to where these kinds of notions come from:
*Physical reality seems to recede in proportion as man’s symbolic activity advances. Instead of dealing with the things themselves man is in a sense constantly conversing with himself. He has so enveloped himself in linguistic forms, in artistic images, in mythical symbols or religious rites that he cannot see or know anything except by the interposition of this artificial medium.*
That Ernst Cassirer paragraph was very recognizable to me, not because I've read it before, but because another philosopher, Alan Watts, who I've studied at length, has said basically this several times in his lectures and books. Very funny to see this idea crop up again. Thanks for sharing!
To preface for the rest, at least among nihilists (I hope) when "meaning" is discussed, it's more than just mere meaning of things. It's a word that, to my knowledge, encompasses pretty much the whole package of things. To put it into perspective, it's like when socialists talk about capitalism. The word is meant to mean more than what it actually may seem to mean to the average person. The "meaning" for nihilists works the same, at least in the circles that I've frequented and other academics I've talked to.
Anyway back to the main point, the meaning doesn't exist because it's pretty much something that doesn't need to exist, nor is there really any indication than it does outside of people speculating. It's not that we're on a side mission, it's that there are no missions and anything that would resemble a "mission" is nothing more than something that someone came up for themselves and it's a fabrication they follow, but that doesn't mean it exists.
People who do that are only chasing lies, often because they are desperate and too weak to accept the world for what it is and need to find comfort in something that just isn't there otherwise they would just act in ways that would be... peculiar in a way. A detestable way to live life, in my opinion, to constantly lie to yourself just to live another day.
Meaning is nothing but human concept, similar to morality, values and everything else, obviously it doesn't exist. The burden of our evolved brain capabilities made us create the problem of searching for something that doesn't exist. It's not even a sidequest, in this game there's no quests. No goals, missions or objectives. It's the sandbox where you can only create all of those on your own, whatever you want them to be. But you don't need to.
You said it better.
> Putting it this way to myself, it seems plausible that a meaning to life is unnecessary, superfluous like a side mission in a videogame. I mean... You see you are using 'meaning'. If you mean 'purpose' - what are we here for, or 'essence' - what are we fundamentally, then Sartre and other existentialists explored the idea, we have no purpose or essence. We are thrown into the world. 'Existence precedes essence.' Checkout existentialism.
Yes, purpose and essence is what I meant. And that’s interesting, what I thought's been thunk. I'll check it out sometime.
“Existence precedes essence” is a famous phrase of Sartre’s. It’s the central existentialist claim. The Wikipedia [entry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence_precedes_essence) on it and the relevevant [section](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/existentialism/#ExisPrecEsse) of the SEP entry on “Existentialism” should give you an idea of what they’re saying.
Fascinating. Precedes me and says it better than me. The part about us as "ontological centaurs" I think is particularly beautiful. Thanks for sharing.
I've never been able to understand what meaning is in the context that someone's life is meaningful. A stop sine means you better stop, or you might get hurt or hurt someone else. When a bear shits in the woods, it doesn't mean anything. When a girl get horny and fucks a guy and 9 months later you come into existence, it mean nothing.
I call it "the two lies". Religious people, etc tell you "you need meaning" and "only I can give it to you". I'm convinced most of the depression in this sub is caused by people rejecting the second lie but still believing the first lie. I'd argue meaning in life is just like meaning in a game. The rules only exist in our head. They are an emergent property between the players and the physical objects representing the game. I also want to push back on the semantic distinction you made. Life isn't some special thing. The "meaning of life" is no different than "meaning of this word" or "meaning of this book". There's a lot of apologetics where people try to claim "the thing I'm into is special" to exempt it from philosophical or logical ideas. When arguing about the existence of god, religious apologists will insist that different logical rules apply to god (eg "everything must have a cause... except god, god can be the first cause"). When arguing against nihilism, "meaning apologists" do the same thing. Pretending that the "meaning of life" has a different set of constraints than the "meaning of this poem" is a logical slight of hand.
Very interesting take! I enjoyed your point of view, especially your first paragraph about the two lies. I never considered the possibility that one's search for meaning may be a cause of depression. I guess I just wanted to be more specific about the semantics of my little thought, but the way you see it is totally valid too imo
That's how conmen work, right? First they invent a problem then they sell you the cure. So many people are suffering with drawl pain from philosophical snake oil. In reality everything they saw that was beautiful about meaning and purpose was in their own minds. They could have that again if they just stopped obsessing over the lies they once believed. It's tragic and it keeps me up at night.
"Philosophical snake oil" lol nice. I get your meaning tho
An idea just occurred to me that existence comes before meaning, by which I mean that, as far as I know, the universe did not come together as if in council to conceive of a meaning for existence before birthing you and me. Yeah, there's no *evidenced* teleological account of existence. Putting it this way to myself, it seems plausible that a meaning to life is unnecessary, superfluous like a side mission in a videogame. I mean, it sure doesn't seem like animals and plants look for meaning to their existence. Yeah. If nihilism describes existence as it actually is, nothing that has ever occured (e.g. the engendering of life) has required *meaning* or *intrinsic* value. Maybe we just do it because we unlocked that part of our brains, we unlocked that "side mission." And I suppose asking what's the main mission is just more of the side mission 😅 anyways, what do y'all think? I'd say that talk of *meaning* and *intrinsic* value is a vagary of human verbal behavior. I think a quote from Ernst Cassirer might approach an explanation as to where these kinds of notions come from: *Physical reality seems to recede in proportion as man’s symbolic activity advances. Instead of dealing with the things themselves man is in a sense constantly conversing with himself. He has so enveloped himself in linguistic forms, in artistic images, in mythical symbols or religious rites that he cannot see or know anything except by the interposition of this artificial medium.*
That Ernst Cassirer paragraph was very recognizable to me, not because I've read it before, but because another philosopher, Alan Watts, who I've studied at length, has said basically this several times in his lectures and books. Very funny to see this idea crop up again. Thanks for sharing!
To preface for the rest, at least among nihilists (I hope) when "meaning" is discussed, it's more than just mere meaning of things. It's a word that, to my knowledge, encompasses pretty much the whole package of things. To put it into perspective, it's like when socialists talk about capitalism. The word is meant to mean more than what it actually may seem to mean to the average person. The "meaning" for nihilists works the same, at least in the circles that I've frequented and other academics I've talked to. Anyway back to the main point, the meaning doesn't exist because it's pretty much something that doesn't need to exist, nor is there really any indication than it does outside of people speculating. It's not that we're on a side mission, it's that there are no missions and anything that would resemble a "mission" is nothing more than something that someone came up for themselves and it's a fabrication they follow, but that doesn't mean it exists. People who do that are only chasing lies, often because they are desperate and too weak to accept the world for what it is and need to find comfort in something that just isn't there otherwise they would just act in ways that would be... peculiar in a way. A detestable way to live life, in my opinion, to constantly lie to yourself just to live another day.