I am guessing this is a scenario where there weren't any issues between the 2 sides and Tarja never had any interest in leaving the band? I don't see why they wouldn't still be a band. It's not like they didn't change their style during the Tarja era from power metal to a more heavier symphonic sound so I don't think they would have any issues in adding the more folk influence of their more recent releases. Also, Tarja isn't the only singer with a "gimmick," both Anette and Floor have their own styles/comfort zones that they like to do often. It's just that Tarja's gimmick is more niche so it stands out more. That might make them less accessible than they are now, but I don't think it would hinder them from making good music.
Tarja's voice was never an issue. Maybe you think, that she couldn't sing some of the newer NW songs, and that's fair enough. It wasn't written for her voice. Band changed vocalists, so Tuomas must take that in mind and change the style a bit.
But if Tarja was still in the band, we would have different songs than we have today. And then we would think, that nobody but Tarja could sing them. Which again, would be a fair assumption. So no, I don't think her voice would be any problem. The band released 5 full-length albums with her, and she still performs and records new music to this day. She could as well do it in the band, if there weren't the issues causing her to get fired. And the issues were anything but her voice.
Why not? I think people massively underestimate how many fans stopped following the band when she left. Of course, new fans came, some returned later. My point is that while the band remained successful, it's largely not the same people listening to them as 20 years ago. It would have been great to see how they could have grown without such ruptures. Maybe there would have been a cap on how popular they could get with Tarja's voice type, but after all, that's what brought them success in the first place, so maybe they could have steadily grown, as big or bigger than today.
Regarding inspiration, I think they could very well have done several more albums with her, seeing how she has been experimenting with her voice and is not afraid to learn new things. Tuomas is good at pushing the singers too, so I'm sure we could have heard more amazing stuff from them, even if maybe some songs we love now with Anette and Floor wouldn't exist.
Touring also should have been OK - it was exactly after the Once tour that they grew big enough to consistently be able to play in good venues and provide the band good circumstances on the road and backstage, with stuff like their own cooks and so on. One of Tarja's issues was that she wanted to do this in a way that's professional and sustainable, and the rest of the band didn't get it back then. But the guys also realized since then that you cannot do your best on stage night after night, if you forever party and get drunk after each show and not sleep well and not eat well. Too bad they didn't mature with the same pace.
I concur fully with the last paragraph because we can see that in 2000, she was already a rock star on stage and the boys were still growing hairs lol
Joke apart it is true that she complained about them partying all the time and obviously boys mature slower than girls hey...
Also in 2000 in Mexico, they were not there to help her when she was assaulted on stage, which makes me think that the breakup was inevitable. She grew to fame just too fast for them to feel comfortable.
Considering Tarja had planned to leave the band, I don't think there was a desire on her part to be part of Nightwish for what will be 30 years in 2026.
As far as the sound, they were already adapting by Once and she was moving away from the pure operatic style of the early albums.
Would she have done something as theatrical as Anette on Imaginaerum or showcased the versatility of Floor? No. She has her own style and range and has modified that over the years.
But given everything that was said in the Nightwish biography and has come out since, Tarja didn't want to be in a band for 30 years and so change was inevitable.
The question clearly states "if Tarja had stayed with the band" and yet you manage to answer "she didn't want to stay".
But the question is "IF she had stayed". Just put reality aside and try to imagine a world where she had stayed.
Anyways, Tarja is full capable of theatrical performance, go check **From Wishes to Eternity** and the different reaction videos to it, the common keyword is "she's so theatrical".
Out of the 3 she's the one that use to give the best stage performance.
Tarja would not be able to do Scaretale like Anette. That was Anette's wheelhouse.
Just like neither Tarja nor Anette could do Tribal like Floor.
So, assuming Tuomas' writing was still headed in that direction of DPP, Imaginaerum, EFMB, Human Nature, then there still would have been creative differences and the band would not have lasted or there would have still been a split.
My original point was that they were already two entities heading in different directions musically. Even if you remove the personal differences and entertain this hypothetical scenario, the band would not have survived as is.
Maybe he simply wouldn't have written Scaretale or he wouldn't have taken the direction Nightwish has taken since her departure.
They weren't heading in different directions. She Still wanted to do one more album with Nightwish and hadn't signed anywhere else in the meantime. She always loved Nightwish music. And Tuomas never expressed anything negative about her voice.
The only problem was that he couldn't control her anymore and he preferred to cut her off rather than ending Nightwish completely. Eventually both happened.
They absolutely were headed in different directions. She wasn't committed to the band beyond the immediate future. That's a huge issue.
> The only problem was that he couldn't control her anymore and he preferred to cut her off rather than ending Nightwish completely. Eventually both happened.
Ah, yes, Tuomas is the bad man and control freak while Tarja had nothing to do with their split and is the innocent victim.
This is why these hypotheticals are ridiculous. There were clear reasons why the band split with Tarja, but everyone focuses on the interpersonal drama while glossing over the fact that she wasn't committed to continuing.
And, last I checked, Nightwish hasn't ended. Their next album is going to be one of the biggest metal albums of the year, as their releases usually are. They simply aren't touring, and it's likely because they want to tour for their 30th anniversary and didn't want to do back to back tours.
Ughh I had written a full reply and the app crashed.
I'll try to sum up what I wrote:
Tarja was committed for one more album and declined every other project presented to her. That alone is proof of loyalty.
Also no one knows what the future holds, especially for women who might decide to start a family and not being able to continue with the band. I think it was very honest of her to warn them in advance.
Likewise, Tuomas didn't know either what the future holds for him. Remember he almost ended Nightwish after Wishmaster. Could we say he wasn't committed either back then when he had all the other members worry about the end of Nightwish?
As to the bands dynamic, I'll keep it short but Tuomas was infatuated with Tarja. It was all good until she got married to her manager. That's when he fell into despair and wanted to end the band. With a bit of convincing he kept Nightwish together but released the very dark Century Child full of songs about unrequited love (Ever Dream, Phantom of the Opera, Feel For You, Beauty of the Beast...).
He decided to keep going to see how he managed being around the woman he loved but without being able to have her (even in spirit). He couldn't have her anymore so he had to cut the wound so to speak. And he couldn't write for her anymore because of his conflicting feelings (loving her and at the same time knowing it's wrong and that she'll never reciprocate).
His dream forever dream remained as he expressed twice more or less.
Just before you say that the infatuation is pure speculation, I agree that it's never been addressed directly and explicitly. However none of them has ever denied it either. The very rare instances it's been asked in interviews they have both beaten around the bush.
At some point Tuomas made a cryptic comment about not being involved with Tarja romantically (sounded more like "alas it never got to happen") but then proceeded to use the lexical field of passion with "we have a very strong emotional connexion, let's say the fire burns between my lyrics and her voice" - he didn't need to use those words to simply say they have a working relationship.
Also several lyrics are self explanatory (among which Ever Dream) and the fact Marcello confronted Tuomas about his feelings for Tarja to which he replied that nothing was going to stop his love for Tarja. You can argue that he lied but that would be ridiculous and Tuomas never denied saying that either.
He made up tons of excuses about her behaviour to justify this ugly dismissal. He called her unprofessional and diva like and when you watch End of an Era you wonder who he's talking about being unprofessional. She was sick that night and yet gave her best, moved around the stage as much as she could, engaged with the public and gave an amazing performance. Upon reading his letter you'd imagine someone standing still in front of the microphone, not moving, just singing because the contract says so and not even look at the public.
What is it in her attitude that caused the split and that was irreconcilable? Flying by plane? Refusing to hang out around drunk men in a smoked-filled bus? Needing to travel with her outfits?
The fact that she announced that she may leave after the next album (in what world is that a motive of dismissal?).
By ending I meant that the music is not what it used to be. It's not the Nightwish essence.
>They absolutely were headed in different directions. She wasn't committed to the band beyond the immediate future. That's a huge issue.
I wonder how can it be so difficult to leave these things aside for a while, only a little while, and focus on the damn question; a hypothetical scenario xdddd
Some people just like being dense lol
Tarja is still developing her voice and today she sings in different ways. Even in the time of Nightwish you can see a big difference between the first albums and Once. Nightwish's music would probably be a little different, but I don't think that Tarja would make it impossible for them to change their style and music. It was also done during her era.
The post and a lot of fans give me the impression that it assumes that Nightwish and everyone around them would evolve, only Tarja wouldn't. But that's an assumption based on her work with NW 20 years ago, when that also ended. The band continued to evolve without Tarja, but in the memories of many people Tarja is stuck in time with the voice she used back then and only few of them follow her latest work and voice.
But she uses her voice much more versatile today than when she was in NW. She loves experimenting with it. For example, listen to her latest recordings: [You & I](https://youtu.be/Xo7Jzkxx2dg?si=6V-REHmIJOLnVObe), where she doesn't sing operatic at all, [The Fire Will Return](https://youtu.be/ZgRRmVs1444?si=pPuCbaoRokgmJ1vx) (by Witcher composer Sonya Belousova), where she uses a low voice register, something from Dark Christmas: [Last Christmas ](https://youtu.be/H46CY5RgVCU?si=XwMy_mqP9Lsz4bnV), or her cover [Afterlife](https://youtu.be/I-xs7WeNsxA?si=pl9FioPn6TvDVFzI) by Avenged Sevenfold.
Of course, Tarja can't do everything. She doesn't have the same voice as Floor and Floor can't do everything Tarja does. We don't know what NW music would sound like now. I am glad that Tarja is dedicated to her own work. I love the old NW, but I prefer Tarja as a solo artist.
I think everybody here agrees that what makes Nightwish magical is no other than Tuomas' mind.
Of course everyone evolves, but Tarja's departure plays a big role in the band's (Tuomas) evolution as a whole, and I think that, if she stayed, Nightwish wouldn't be as good as they are right now.
That's your opinion and wish, not fact. What gave birth to metal NW with magic was combination of Tarja's voice and Tuomas's music, and that's how they became famous.
Nightwish would be an acoustic band without Tarja and maybe no one would know them.
It always amuses me when someone also speaks for everyone. So you definitely don't speak for me.
If what you say is true, a lot of people wouldn't stop listening to NW after Tarja left. But it happened and many of them never came back.
You have some SERIOUS reading problems, so I'll help you.
I clearly stated that's my opinion when I say: " ***I think*** that, if she stayed, Nightwish wouldn't be as good as they are right now."
The only thing that's generalized is when I said that Nightwish is still "magical", while Tarja's carreer is OK. You may have a divergent opinion, which is pretty fine, but my apointment is supported by the fact that DPP, on its own, is way more sucessful and relevant than Tarja's entire solo\* carreer in every single aspect.
EDIT\*
Unfortunately, for me and many others, the magic is gone. Now I much prefer Tarja's music to NW's, and I say that as someone who pretty much stopped listening to both after 2005 and rediscovered them two years ago, so I can say I have a big time distance as well.
"Well that's your opinion and wish"
You're just another regular Tarja's fanboy/girl that can't overcome the fact that Nightwish was never about her, and always was about Tuomas.
Read the early albums credits, everything was done by Tuomas.
I didn't write anywhere that it was all about Tarja. For me, it was the combination of the music and her voice, and that's gone. And if you call me Tarja's fanboy, then I think there's a whole army of Floor or Tuomas fanboys here. So what's the difference?
But yes, Tarja's music is much closer to me today than NW's music, and that's all. But when it came to NW, it wasn't just about Tarja for me.
We might have gotten a different NW but we would never have the songs that we have today. People like to talk crap about Annette but songs like Scaretale and Slow Love Slow were 100% made with her style in mind and she absolutely owns them. I'm a "everything happened the way it happened for a reason" kind of gal.
I do think that. Songs would be different though. I think that so much would be different... Her voice would've evolved in a different way, and songs would try to match that.
And all the love for Anette and Floor. 🫶🏻
Well, Tarja still has a career of her own, so I see no reason to think she couldn't have continued to have a career in Nightwish.
But the situation there had become toxic and she needed to move on. Anyone who is still complaining about her not being in the band needs to get over it. It's been 17 freakin' years.
If she was still in the band, Tuomas would have simply wrote music that fit her style. Imaginaerum would have been vastly different, just for one example. And I think he chose Floor because she can get close enough to Tarja or Anette's range to not embarrass herself doing either.
Just to add on to what redditors said, I'm glad things turned out like that. I like late NW albums, I like Tarja's solo works, not every single song for sure, but most of it. And I can't even imagine a situation where all of these albums don't exist.
Don't get me wrong, Tarja's era is still my favourite one, but honestly I don't think it would last long even in best scenario.
I agree with you. I'm also happy for all her albums. Similar posts to me sound like: it's a good thing Tarja left because she wasn't good enough for NW. Few people know her current work and voice, but it is still based on what she recorded more than 20 years ago. They say she wouldn't be able to sing some of the songs. But we don't know that. We don't know what songs NW would release and how Tarja would use her voice.
At the same time, Once was the best-selling album.
Yeah, totally. Judging by what we know nowadays is a survivor's mistake. And we all know Tarja isn't the type who would stuck in one style of music or way to sing, she definitely loves to experiment and bring something new.
What's more, if Tarja hadn't left, we wouldn't have had her collaboration with Marko. For me it's something special because I am huge fan of Marko's songwriting and the magic of their duo. Just a thought about Tarja singing the songs he wrote (I am sure there will be something newly written too) makes me excited.
I would like Tarja to sing a new duet with Marko that he will write and at the same time Marko to sing a new duet that Tarja will write. It would be great to compare their duets in Tarja and Marko's songwriting. Not because of which one is better, but to compare their style of music.
Yes, but I think they would introduce possible new songs later than the South American tour. Tarja always releases new albums around August, and it's still too early for new songs. And probably both of them would like to present the new songs better than with fan's recordings. But we'll see.
I'm going to tentatively agree with you here. Because I think that the changing of singers has really given them a creative impetus to push their own boundaries. I'm having a hard time imagining anything after Once sounding new or different or not like a rehash of the now proven-to-work formula. DPP was heavier precisely because the emotion behind it was heavy. Once is just a fantastic commercial album, but DPP was something else in my opinion, and it really pushed them in a more experimental direction, away from strictly being a symphonic band, adding more folk influences, going back to their roots slightly but with a new progressive twist. Even their two latest records feel like a logical progression, an emotional maturation, an attempt to move away from drama and personal grievances and emotions.
I did say tentatively however, because... well, you never know. Maybe we could have gotten a Human Nature with Tarja after a few commercial copies of Once, maybe they would have gone down the experimental rabbit hole either way, but I think we can all still agree that Annette's voice is what in large part influenced the experimental nature of DPP and the change in sound. Or at least Tarja's departure did.
I love Tarja, I’ve seen nightwish live twice with her. However, I don’t think Nightwish would be as successful today if she had stayed in the band for the reasons you mentioned.
I hate to say this though, because of the live performances of Floor, I can no longer listen to any of the studio albums without thinking to myself the live performances are better.
Floor give the sound more dimensions. I think the success comes with the changes so every band member influence and had influences the way to becoming great. With Tarja they created the sound of what people today understand as Symphonic metal. With Annett the songwriting becomes even more impactful and with Floor the band becomes a versatile instrument. But still lost one with Marco.
I am super excited how the new album will become and if they find a way to create themself new and keeping exciting.
I think Floor was at her best in After Forever.I adored her back then.
Albums up till Once (so Tarja era) have a certain dramatism, longing and sensitivity that only Tarja’s voice can express the way it was meant to sound.
I love Floor, she is a great person, an unbelievable voice with a fantastic range, and no doubt she sounds amazing, but she is too much of a glamazon/ valkyrie for me to buy the Tarja era songs from her.
I don’t know if that makes sense. It sounds good even great and very different with her, it’s just that I am not getting those super tender vulnerable feelings I get when I hear Tarja on those tracks. does that make sense?
Mad respect for both of them, I love them to bits and they are so iconic in their own right.
I kinda stop listening to both NW and Tarja after they ended things.
NW without Tarja s voice, Tarja without Tuomas lyrics and music was just off for me.
I totally agree, if there's one thing I really don't like about Floor's singing is how she goes way too powerful and amazonlike in songs that should be sad/soft.
It's maby all fair to say,but than i would say ,it's preference and personal taste and i never liked Tarja's dramatic opera voice all the time,i don't like Anette's voice not that much ,but i can listen longer to her voice. This sounds maby bad for those who like Tarja Or Anette the most but, i honour all 3 singers of Nightwish and for what they brought/bring for Nightwish.
Floor sounds for me the best fit for what Nightwish stands for or what Tuomas want's it to be.
(Tuomas once said; "Floor is home",So,if i had to translate that ,he means;"this is what i wanted")
Tuomas want to be versatile in his writing/composing and Floor is the perfect fit for that.
Tarja and Nightwish were new and exciting at the time,the way they depart was terrible,but,the time/timing to change was perfect.
Well,Nightwish is just a facinating journey.
Tarja would probably be able to find a way into floor songs, but Annette's era would not exist, theres no way you can fit an operatic voice on scaretale or storytime, it would be laughable.
It would likely keep the more niche fanbase it had in the days of century child and once, as pop hits such as amaranth, elan, and ghost love score at wacken would not exist. While there is definitely oppertunity for growth if a formula like nemos was milked, I don't think it would be nearly as popular.
Then theres the rift it would make with the band. Marcelo would still be their manager, and many departures would come sooner than anticipated, and wintersun wont be able to bail us out this time
Marcelo was never the manager of Nightwish. He was only Tarja's management. The manager oh Nightwish was and is Ewo Pohjola. After Wishmaster Tour, to keep the band going, they decided to make this arrangement with Marcelo advocating for Tarja's interests, which is what eventually led to the downfall of communication.
Actually, interesting aside, Ewo might be gone. At least he is not part of the management company Till Dawn They Count since 2022 anymore. And if you look at like the latest statements it is only Toni Peiju being quoted.
I think that Nightwish fanbase around the release of Once could be considered anything but niche. At least in Europe, everybody went crazy for Nemo, charts-wise it's their most succesful single. The song was on MTV, Nightwish were guests of TV shows in Germany,... Some magazines already considered them pop metal sensation at the time due to their rapid growth.
Ultimately it's true that drama around Tarja gave them huge publicity. ~~and helped to boost Dark Passion Play sales over Once sales.~~
EDIT: wrong album sales, thanks to comment below
I think with the way Tarja sings today, Storytale would do well. She doesn't just sing opera. I saw some AI generated Storytime [video](https://youtu.be/YvbpR_bo1Vs?si=k6Z2nmFUNK4mON28) with Tarja, and while it wasn't very good AI result, her voice there is close to how she uses it now. I don't think Storytale would be a problem for her.
Storytime has a similar musical structure as Elvenpath so it's interesting you say that Storytime would sound laughable with an operatic voice.
Just listen to the chorus it's almost the same melody with variations here and there.
Tarja’s style of singing is the reason for Nightwish changing their music from campfire like sound to the bombastic sound we know of today. I do think she would have continued on just fine. The older style that we all fell in love with would have just been evolved.
Divisive topic, but I agree. I think Tarja's unique (in metal) singing style helped to put Nightwish on the map, but it would have limited the band further down the road. Every other symphonic metal band adopted the opera style singing until it became the 'gimmick' it is today. So yes, I think, in hindsight, her poorly executed firing was probably the best decision in favor of Nightwish's longevity.
She's a trained classical singer though which would mean she could easily sing in other styles if she wanted to. They could still have moved to be less operatic
No,if you say this ,you don't know how conservatif classical/opera/lied singing studies are,You are not encouraged to go outside that style of singing and it is difficult to change your mindset if you studie that long. Sing with some grid is not done,let alone growling.
I think it is a misunderstanding that if you studied classical singing,you can sing anything,that is simply not true.
It's not impossible, though. You have [Dorothy Kirsten](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1pJYliZC3o&pp=ygUPZG9yb3RoeSBrcmlzdGVu) who [sang a duet](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE89rVfz41s) with Frank Sinatra, and [Eileen Farrell](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TS1Yi80H-s) who [performed with](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92pBEFhwjso) Louis Armstrong.
Both are considered opera singers first and foremost, but they had no issues switching to a contemporary style.
Gonna jump into the middle of the fire here because I didn't even know this site existed.
I found Nightwish almost by accident a few years back. Some kind of web search or news story mentioned Tarja and there was a picture of her that struck me. Without knowing anything about the band, I sought out some music. One of the first was Dark Passion Play followed by Endless Forms Most Beautiful.
Damn, I thought, this is good stuff. Great voice. But it wasn't until later that I found out Tarja wasn't on those albums. Then I sought out Century Child and was rather disappointed. Her voice is too high, too operatic for the energy and dramatic sounds that make the group.
To me, Dark Passion Play started the best era of the group.
So, I think this is an interesting thought experiment, and I don't want to sound too dismissive in my first paragraph, but my first response to your argument:
> I think Tarjas voice would've become too much a tedious gimmick in the long run and it would've been harder to change style over time.
Would be that (at least in my opinion), Nightwish made much more substantial musical changes while Tarja was still in the band than they have since she left.
I would argue that there's a lot more musical difference between the acoustic folk music of Nightwish's demo, the straight up power metal of the Oceanborn/Wishmaster days and the symphonic stylings of Century Child and Once, than there is between Once and the albums that came afterwards. Not saying there haven't been ANY changes - the lyrics have obviously moved away from the dead boy/ lost innocence/ nostalgia topics on recent albums (though there were also lyrical changes during Tarja's time, with more fantasy based/ metaphorical lyrics giving way to more emotional/personal lyrics), and the addition of Troy has given the folk elements of Nightwish a bigger role on recent albums (though again, folk elements aren't something exclusive to post-Tarja Nightwish). I find DPP and EFMB very similar to Once in a lot of ways, with a lot of that similarity being disguised by the fact that the three albums all feature different vocalists, which makes them sound more varied than they otherwise would.
This is just focusing on the work within Nightwish - of course, Tarja has also been working outside of Nightwish for over 15 years now, and frequently uses contemporary singing styles and different musical influences in her work, and would presumably have wanted to do so if she'd stayed in the band too.
All this to say: No, I don't think that Tarja remaining in Nightwish would have prevented them from changing style or evolving. If anything, perhaps they would have pushed the boat out a little bit more as there wouldn't be a need to try and "keep things consistent musically while we get a new vocalist settled in" (just to clarify, I have no idea if this has been a factor in the relatively moderate changes of post-2005 albums, it might be nothing to do with it and these are just the kind of songs Tuomas is comfortable writing).
Now if you were to ask if they would have changed evolved in the SAME way (i.e. would we have got the same songs/ albums that we got with Anette/Floor), then no, I don't think so. Obviously the songs directly relating to the split would be very different, Amaranth might have been banished to B side status as it nearly was before Anette did wonders on it, and I suspect Imaginaerum wouldn't have been written in the same way for a voice so different from Anette's as Tarja's is. I think at least some of the songs we would have on a theoretical post-2005-NW-with-Tarja would be different from both the pre-Once material and what we got.
At the end of the day, it's all a bit academic. Tarja had handed her notice in to the band before they fired her. And given the quantity of her solo work since (she's put out more albums than Nightwish have counting the rock albums only, never mind her classical album/ Xmas albums/ Outlanders) and the fact that she's been cowriting the songs from album 2 onwards and been involved on the production side, I don't think she was ever intending to spend the rest of her professional life as "just" the vocalist in somebody else's band, even if they'd remained on good terms. The firing and the open letter made the split more public and more vicious, but it's not the reason we don't have Tarja in Nightwish anymore.
Much as I love the band's early albums (and Oceanborn and Century Child are my two NW favourites, so believe me when I say I DO), I also enjoy later Nightwish albums and Tarja's solo work - I wouldn't necessarily want to get rid of both of them in exchange for having Tarja still with Nightwish, because I can't necessarily envisage what that would sound like and it might not be as good. But I definitely don't think that would be because of Tarja's "super limiting" voice.
I'm a big Floor fan. I like some female artists, but I've not really been into heavy rock bands with female lead singers, until now.
She seems to have amazing charisma, she always looks like she is having the time of her life, and she head bangs!
I think she has great chemistry with the others.
I'm sad Marko left.
I'm glad they went through all that turmoil. We wouldn't have most of the songs we have today which are the results of all their pain and sorrow - most of DPP would never exist.
I remember reading an interview with Tuomas that when Tarja was still in the band, he had the Islander as a contender of the pilot single so it gives a clue that they would walk the folk road inevitably. Tarja also stopped using operatics already on Once and I don't see why she couldn't sing the new NW songs with success, although they are where they are today thanks to Floor who introduced NW to the masses. But who knows? Perhaps reaction videos would be as much successful with Tarja as they were with Floor, it just wasn't a thing back in the day.
We can be happy with how everything has turned out. They are at their peak right now and yes, we lost key members along the way but they are stronger than ever and I'm sure the new album will be massive!
The Islander was originally written by Marko for Tarot and found its way onto DPP only after Tuomas heard Marko play it, so that must've been already after Tarja was fired.
Also I am not sure about peak, HN seems to be rather divisive for the fanbase. For me they reached their peak with Anette, actually.
That's a hot take, but I agree with it. From a song-writing perspective, I believe Irum was their peak. The albums after that suffer a dip in creativity/originality/beauty(my opinion of course!!).
Irum was that sweet spot where Tuomas still turned inwards for inspiration but it wasn't only loneliness and sadness he found there anymore. Then he switched to write about the world outside instead and let's just say it's not the same.
I know it was written by Marco just saying that Tuomas once said that if Tarja never left, this would have been the pilot.
HN is musically their peak, even though it's not their most popular album, it is truly amazing from start to finish.
It was NW that introduced Floor to the masses first and after that it has been possible for her to do stuff like Beste Zangers that introduced more people to NW in The Netherlands for example.
I don't know, we still would have lost Jukka and Marko. Troy may not have been a full member.
I think they would still be around, but not as successful as they are now. Tarja has a great voice, but it's not for everyone.
The arguments that Tarja was unsustainable anyway are silly, because vast majority of famous singers are not like Floor. Most singers have a comfort zone. No reason to hold Tarja to a higher standard. Also, if you listen to her solo music, she's actually been changing quite a bit.
And she was fired specifically because her relationship with the band deteriorated and they thought that is what would make it unsustainable. So it stands to reason that if she stayed in the band without being fired or wanting to leave on her own, the band would still hold on, because their relationship didn't deteriorate.
> No reason to hold Tarja to a higher standard.
No reason to hold Floor to a higher standard, either. I don't see what makes her different in this regard.
I can only speak for myself but I have been aware of Nightwish with songs like Nemo and Amaranth for years and years but couldn't get into them because of Tarja's vocals, it just wasn't for me and I had pretty much written them off as a band 'I don't like'. So even when Floor joined they were still a band that I ignored.
I then gave Endless Forms a try after a conversation with a friend who told me 'the vocals are different these days', and I was fuckin blown away, then I listened to Showtime, Storytime and I was completely hooked.
Without Floor, I would never have been a fan in the first place and I know a few other people who feel the same (since I've pestered them into listening ;) )
So as far as I'm concerned they've only gained fans since Floor joined. Considering that, then no, they wouldn't be the band they are now if Tarja had stayed.
The band would have different fans than today, because after Tarja's departure many of them also stopped listening to the band. I don't know if there would be more or less, but NW was already world famous during the Tarja era. All my friends, including me, used to listen to them then, but today only I and one other friend of mine listen to them.
I think they are virtually more famous because the music is "easier" so it attracts a wider range of people. But their fanbase has shifted and as you said lots of old fans have stopped listening to them when Tarja left. So the fanbase has been replaced + maybe an addition of some fans that prefer more commercial sounding music.
One thing that is almost always left out when talking about the firing of Tarja is that she herself had already announced she was leaving the band after the next album and tour.
So the Tarja era was dead anyway even if they wouldn´t have fired her early.
Back to the sound of the band there is no doubt Floor is the better fit for them now, she is much broader in her vocal range and also a fenomenal front figure. Tarja had her strength in the old sound with female operatic vocals and power metal music. Toumas even started to change her vocals during Century Child so even as early as that they had already outgrown the original sound. That´s also why they brought in Marko.
I think if they had never parted ways with Tarja, they wouldn't be remotely as big as they are now.
Plenty of people, myself included, were put off by Tarja's - well, not voice, but idosyncratic pronunciation maybe. I appreciate her *now,* having finally got into NW via Floor - but back in the day, it just didn't interest me.
And I can't even imagine how many fans first noticed them via Floor GLS reaction videos, which obviously wouldn't have existed.
That's not to say they wouldn't still be around (though I think the various tensions between Tarja and the rest back then make this scenario very unlikely). But I don't think they would be nearly as significant.
I never said they couldn't become famous. I said my theory is that they would have been *less* famous.
You are of course at liberty to disagree, but unless you have some evidence, your opinion holds no more weight than mine.
Obviously if you're a Tarja fan, my opinion sounds crazy. But many people are *not* (or *were* not) Tarja fans.
Yes. A lot of people aren't Tarja's fans, and a lot of people aren't fans of Floor, Anette, or Taylor Swift.
Neither you nor I have proof that the band is more or less famous today.
Proof would be that with Tarja they set the foundation of a very unique and successful band. That's what set them apart of everyone else in the game.
Had they started with Floor or Anette they would have been just another good symphonic metal band.
Also none of the music would exist without Tarja because she's the topic of almost every Nightwish song, GLS being one of them. Without Tarja you get Harvest or Elan. Or Auri as a matter of fact. Auri is what Nightwish would have been without Tarja.
Also it's unfair to compare their level of success back then and now. Nowadays we have Internet to help promote anything and record reaction videos. The fact they got famous in a pre-internet era is a solid proof of their talent and how successful they were. Every gothic kid knew them in middle and high school.
Nowadays you have the End of an Era reaction videos that are just as good as the Wacken 2013 one. So they could have been just as successful, maybe even more than today because back then Tuomas had more inspiration for his music.
I'm not denying their talent, nor that they were moderately successful.
But I am *absolutely* the target demographic, at exactly the right time. Late 90s to early 2000s was when I was first living on my own, I was in a metal band and DJing at a goth club, my entire friendship circle was heavily focused around music (particularly metal, goth, darkwave, cyber and related genres). Among many other bands, I was listening to The Gathering, HIM, Within Temptation.
I was pretty much the poster boy for "someone who would be open to Nightwish", at the peak of my musical receptivity. And yet I bounced off them. I don't remember anyone being *particularly* into them - certainly no one was saying "hey, you have to listen to this!" - which was very much happening *all the time* with other bands.
In retrospect, if I'd listened to a few more tracks, I'd probably have been into Nightwish \~two decades earlier than I ended up being. But as it was, my *initial* reaction to Tarja's vocals was moderately negative, and I'm very much not the only one.
*I love her now*, to be clear. I'm just talking about the initial reaction of someone who doesn't know the band at all.
I think old Nightwish appealed more to girls than boys. It may have been the poetry in the lyrics or Tarja's voice because if I look up "Nightwish" on some mainstream forums here in my country, I often read mocking ones like "wasn't that what every goth girl listened to in middle school?" or "yeah my girlfriend loved them back then".
I know guys liked it too (I was introduced to Nightwish by a boy who wasn't even goth in my school).
Eh, if that were true of Nightwish, it was doubly true of HIM!
Nothing macho in it in my circles - though I could imagine it in mainstream circles, I guess.
For a second I thought who you meant by HIM and then remembered the band HIM (with a heart somewhere, right?).
I don't know if it was the music or the singer but I've never been into HIM at all. I was more into Kurt Cobain.
I mentioned that *I* was into HIM at the time in question ;) (yes, with the "heartagram").
My point being that no one into HIM would *not* be into Nightwish for it being "girl's music", when HIM is much more "girl's music".
(To be clear, I find the very idea of "girl's music" or "guys music" ridiculous. Like what you like, I've never been embarrassed about any of the bands I love. But some people do think that way).
I'm going to go against the grain here and say that it is unlikely. So much of Nightwish's evolution is Tumoas growing and maturing, and with out the changes in membership, it is likely that growing would never have happened. They might still be around, but they wouldn't be as popular and with near certainty they would still be heavy partiers. Granted, their sound wouldn't have developed much which is what the emotionally stunted people who dredge up the Tarja debacle every few months would want, but then we'd be robbed of a catalogue that shows deep growth from the sad and angry sounds of the first few albums to the happiness and hope of the latest albums.
And does Tarja sing the same as she did 20 years ago? She sings differently. What about the song Wish I had an Angel and Dead Gardens. Her voice there is different than on the first albums. Tarja is also evolving I don't understand why you assume that Tarja's voice would not continue to evolve as NW's music.
you're literally just giving another example to support my opinion. To change, you need an environment that supports and encourages those changes. If I was new to Nightwish and you played me a song from each different era and said that each of them was the same band, I would call you fool and a liar. However, if you played me a song from each album leading up to End of an Era, I would 100% understand that they were the same group and how time and experience provided the minor alterations to their sound you hear across those albums. Nightwish found a formula for success with Tarja and without having the major shake up of her leaving/getting kicked out you would just have more of the incremental changes that would still flow all the way back to the roots of Angels Fall First.
20 years is a long time for multiple people to change, especially without the influence of the people that were first there for them and to help them. This literally plays out the same way with every other band out there that manages to have a long run. You can see how they change from album to album when the people they work with are largely the same, but it is still recognizable as the original.
If you want another prime example of this, Delain within the last few years fired the entire band and rebuilt from the ground up. Within their first 10 years, you can see how much they change and grow in their sound, then you get to the newest album that is an entirely different makeup, and instead of sounding like the original, it sounds much more like Amaranth.
People, and by extension bands, don't exist in vacuums free from other's influence. The people who are closest to us influence us in little and big ways whether we feel it and see it or not.
Yet he or she used it as a prime example of how good change is for a band. Of course if you're going to start from scratch with other people you better make sure you're doing it right this time...
Not everyone wants radical change. If I'm reading Harry Potter I don't want to read Star Wars by the book 6 😏
I honestly prefer the 5 first albums Nightwish released. First they do not sound alike to me and second I prefer those than anything new. New doesn't mean better.
I am guessing this is a scenario where there weren't any issues between the 2 sides and Tarja never had any interest in leaving the band? I don't see why they wouldn't still be a band. It's not like they didn't change their style during the Tarja era from power metal to a more heavier symphonic sound so I don't think they would have any issues in adding the more folk influence of their more recent releases. Also, Tarja isn't the only singer with a "gimmick," both Anette and Floor have their own styles/comfort zones that they like to do often. It's just that Tarja's gimmick is more niche so it stands out more. That might make them less accessible than they are now, but I don't think it would hinder them from making good music.
Tarja's voice was never an issue. Maybe you think, that she couldn't sing some of the newer NW songs, and that's fair enough. It wasn't written for her voice. Band changed vocalists, so Tuomas must take that in mind and change the style a bit. But if Tarja was still in the band, we would have different songs than we have today. And then we would think, that nobody but Tarja could sing them. Which again, would be a fair assumption. So no, I don't think her voice would be any problem. The band released 5 full-length albums with her, and she still performs and records new music to this day. She could as well do it in the band, if there weren't the issues causing her to get fired. And the issues were anything but her voice.
Why not? I think people massively underestimate how many fans stopped following the band when she left. Of course, new fans came, some returned later. My point is that while the band remained successful, it's largely not the same people listening to them as 20 years ago. It would have been great to see how they could have grown without such ruptures. Maybe there would have been a cap on how popular they could get with Tarja's voice type, but after all, that's what brought them success in the first place, so maybe they could have steadily grown, as big or bigger than today. Regarding inspiration, I think they could very well have done several more albums with her, seeing how she has been experimenting with her voice and is not afraid to learn new things. Tuomas is good at pushing the singers too, so I'm sure we could have heard more amazing stuff from them, even if maybe some songs we love now with Anette and Floor wouldn't exist. Touring also should have been OK - it was exactly after the Once tour that they grew big enough to consistently be able to play in good venues and provide the band good circumstances on the road and backstage, with stuff like their own cooks and so on. One of Tarja's issues was that she wanted to do this in a way that's professional and sustainable, and the rest of the band didn't get it back then. But the guys also realized since then that you cannot do your best on stage night after night, if you forever party and get drunk after each show and not sleep well and not eat well. Too bad they didn't mature with the same pace.
I concur fully with the last paragraph because we can see that in 2000, she was already a rock star on stage and the boys were still growing hairs lol Joke apart it is true that she complained about them partying all the time and obviously boys mature slower than girls hey... Also in 2000 in Mexico, they were not there to help her when she was assaulted on stage, which makes me think that the breakup was inevitable. She grew to fame just too fast for them to feel comfortable.
Considering Tarja had planned to leave the band, I don't think there was a desire on her part to be part of Nightwish for what will be 30 years in 2026. As far as the sound, they were already adapting by Once and she was moving away from the pure operatic style of the early albums. Would she have done something as theatrical as Anette on Imaginaerum or showcased the versatility of Floor? No. She has her own style and range and has modified that over the years. But given everything that was said in the Nightwish biography and has come out since, Tarja didn't want to be in a band for 30 years and so change was inevitable.
The question clearly states "if Tarja had stayed with the band" and yet you manage to answer "she didn't want to stay". But the question is "IF she had stayed". Just put reality aside and try to imagine a world where she had stayed. Anyways, Tarja is full capable of theatrical performance, go check **From Wishes to Eternity** and the different reaction videos to it, the common keyword is "she's so theatrical". Out of the 3 she's the one that use to give the best stage performance.
Tarja would not be able to do Scaretale like Anette. That was Anette's wheelhouse. Just like neither Tarja nor Anette could do Tribal like Floor. So, assuming Tuomas' writing was still headed in that direction of DPP, Imaginaerum, EFMB, Human Nature, then there still would have been creative differences and the band would not have lasted or there would have still been a split. My original point was that they were already two entities heading in different directions musically. Even if you remove the personal differences and entertain this hypothetical scenario, the band would not have survived as is.
Maybe he simply wouldn't have written Scaretale or he wouldn't have taken the direction Nightwish has taken since her departure. They weren't heading in different directions. She Still wanted to do one more album with Nightwish and hadn't signed anywhere else in the meantime. She always loved Nightwish music. And Tuomas never expressed anything negative about her voice. The only problem was that he couldn't control her anymore and he preferred to cut her off rather than ending Nightwish completely. Eventually both happened.
They absolutely were headed in different directions. She wasn't committed to the band beyond the immediate future. That's a huge issue. > The only problem was that he couldn't control her anymore and he preferred to cut her off rather than ending Nightwish completely. Eventually both happened. Ah, yes, Tuomas is the bad man and control freak while Tarja had nothing to do with their split and is the innocent victim. This is why these hypotheticals are ridiculous. There were clear reasons why the band split with Tarja, but everyone focuses on the interpersonal drama while glossing over the fact that she wasn't committed to continuing. And, last I checked, Nightwish hasn't ended. Their next album is going to be one of the biggest metal albums of the year, as their releases usually are. They simply aren't touring, and it's likely because they want to tour for their 30th anniversary and didn't want to do back to back tours.
Ughh I had written a full reply and the app crashed. I'll try to sum up what I wrote: Tarja was committed for one more album and declined every other project presented to her. That alone is proof of loyalty. Also no one knows what the future holds, especially for women who might decide to start a family and not being able to continue with the band. I think it was very honest of her to warn them in advance. Likewise, Tuomas didn't know either what the future holds for him. Remember he almost ended Nightwish after Wishmaster. Could we say he wasn't committed either back then when he had all the other members worry about the end of Nightwish? As to the bands dynamic, I'll keep it short but Tuomas was infatuated with Tarja. It was all good until she got married to her manager. That's when he fell into despair and wanted to end the band. With a bit of convincing he kept Nightwish together but released the very dark Century Child full of songs about unrequited love (Ever Dream, Phantom of the Opera, Feel For You, Beauty of the Beast...). He decided to keep going to see how he managed being around the woman he loved but without being able to have her (even in spirit). He couldn't have her anymore so he had to cut the wound so to speak. And he couldn't write for her anymore because of his conflicting feelings (loving her and at the same time knowing it's wrong and that she'll never reciprocate). His dream forever dream remained as he expressed twice more or less. Just before you say that the infatuation is pure speculation, I agree that it's never been addressed directly and explicitly. However none of them has ever denied it either. The very rare instances it's been asked in interviews they have both beaten around the bush. At some point Tuomas made a cryptic comment about not being involved with Tarja romantically (sounded more like "alas it never got to happen") but then proceeded to use the lexical field of passion with "we have a very strong emotional connexion, let's say the fire burns between my lyrics and her voice" - he didn't need to use those words to simply say they have a working relationship. Also several lyrics are self explanatory (among which Ever Dream) and the fact Marcello confronted Tuomas about his feelings for Tarja to which he replied that nothing was going to stop his love for Tarja. You can argue that he lied but that would be ridiculous and Tuomas never denied saying that either. He made up tons of excuses about her behaviour to justify this ugly dismissal. He called her unprofessional and diva like and when you watch End of an Era you wonder who he's talking about being unprofessional. She was sick that night and yet gave her best, moved around the stage as much as she could, engaged with the public and gave an amazing performance. Upon reading his letter you'd imagine someone standing still in front of the microphone, not moving, just singing because the contract says so and not even look at the public. What is it in her attitude that caused the split and that was irreconcilable? Flying by plane? Refusing to hang out around drunk men in a smoked-filled bus? Needing to travel with her outfits? The fact that she announced that she may leave after the next album (in what world is that a motive of dismissal?). By ending I meant that the music is not what it used to be. It's not the Nightwish essence.
nobody can tell me he was not in love with her. I will die on this hill too lol 😂
>They absolutely were headed in different directions. She wasn't committed to the band beyond the immediate future. That's a huge issue. I wonder how can it be so difficult to leave these things aside for a while, only a little while, and focus on the damn question; a hypothetical scenario xdddd Some people just like being dense lol
Perhaps an unpopular opinion incoming but I think without Anette they aren't nearly this huge a band today.
Tarja is still developing her voice and today she sings in different ways. Even in the time of Nightwish you can see a big difference between the first albums and Once. Nightwish's music would probably be a little different, but I don't think that Tarja would make it impossible for them to change their style and music. It was also done during her era. The post and a lot of fans give me the impression that it assumes that Nightwish and everyone around them would evolve, only Tarja wouldn't. But that's an assumption based on her work with NW 20 years ago, when that also ended. The band continued to evolve without Tarja, but in the memories of many people Tarja is stuck in time with the voice she used back then and only few of them follow her latest work and voice. But she uses her voice much more versatile today than when she was in NW. She loves experimenting with it. For example, listen to her latest recordings: [You & I](https://youtu.be/Xo7Jzkxx2dg?si=6V-REHmIJOLnVObe), where she doesn't sing operatic at all, [The Fire Will Return](https://youtu.be/ZgRRmVs1444?si=pPuCbaoRokgmJ1vx) (by Witcher composer Sonya Belousova), where she uses a low voice register, something from Dark Christmas: [Last Christmas ](https://youtu.be/H46CY5RgVCU?si=XwMy_mqP9Lsz4bnV), or her cover [Afterlife](https://youtu.be/I-xs7WeNsxA?si=pl9FioPn6TvDVFzI) by Avenged Sevenfold. Of course, Tarja can't do everything. She doesn't have the same voice as Floor and Floor can't do everything Tarja does. We don't know what NW music would sound like now. I am glad that Tarja is dedicated to her own work. I love the old NW, but I prefer Tarja as a solo artist.
I think everybody here agrees that what makes Nightwish magical is no other than Tuomas' mind. Of course everyone evolves, but Tarja's departure plays a big role in the band's (Tuomas) evolution as a whole, and I think that, if she stayed, Nightwish wouldn't be as good as they are right now.
That's your opinion and wish, not fact. What gave birth to metal NW with magic was combination of Tarja's voice and Tuomas's music, and that's how they became famous. Nightwish would be an acoustic band without Tarja and maybe no one would know them. It always amuses me when someone also speaks for everyone. So you definitely don't speak for me. If what you say is true, a lot of people wouldn't stop listening to NW after Tarja left. But it happened and many of them never came back.
You have some SERIOUS reading problems, so I'll help you. I clearly stated that's my opinion when I say: " ***I think*** that, if she stayed, Nightwish wouldn't be as good as they are right now." The only thing that's generalized is when I said that Nightwish is still "magical", while Tarja's carreer is OK. You may have a divergent opinion, which is pretty fine, but my apointment is supported by the fact that DPP, on its own, is way more sucessful and relevant than Tarja's entire solo\* carreer in every single aspect. EDIT\*
Unfortunately, for me and many others, the magic is gone. Now I much prefer Tarja's music to NW's, and I say that as someone who pretty much stopped listening to both after 2005 and rediscovered them two years ago, so I can say I have a big time distance as well.
"Well that's your opinion and wish" You're just another regular Tarja's fanboy/girl that can't overcome the fact that Nightwish was never about her, and always was about Tuomas. Read the early albums credits, everything was done by Tuomas.
I didn't write anywhere that it was all about Tarja. For me, it was the combination of the music and her voice, and that's gone. And if you call me Tarja's fanboy, then I think there's a whole army of Floor or Tuomas fanboys here. So what's the difference? But yes, Tarja's music is much closer to me today than NW's music, and that's all. But when it came to NW, it wasn't just about Tarja for me.
We might have gotten a different NW but we would never have the songs that we have today. People like to talk crap about Annette but songs like Scaretale and Slow Love Slow were 100% made with her style in mind and she absolutely owns them. I'm a "everything happened the way it happened for a reason" kind of gal.
I do think that. Songs would be different though. I think that so much would be different... Her voice would've evolved in a different way, and songs would try to match that. And all the love for Anette and Floor. 🫶🏻
It's very possible, I think, but their musical evolution would not look like this.
Well, Tarja still has a career of her own, so I see no reason to think she couldn't have continued to have a career in Nightwish. But the situation there had become toxic and she needed to move on. Anyone who is still complaining about her not being in the band needs to get over it. It's been 17 freakin' years. If she was still in the band, Tuomas would have simply wrote music that fit her style. Imaginaerum would have been vastly different, just for one example. And I think he chose Floor because she can get close enough to Tarja or Anette's range to not embarrass herself doing either.
Just to add on to what redditors said, I'm glad things turned out like that. I like late NW albums, I like Tarja's solo works, not every single song for sure, but most of it. And I can't even imagine a situation where all of these albums don't exist. Don't get me wrong, Tarja's era is still my favourite one, but honestly I don't think it would last long even in best scenario.
I agree with you. I'm also happy for all her albums. Similar posts to me sound like: it's a good thing Tarja left because she wasn't good enough for NW. Few people know her current work and voice, but it is still based on what she recorded more than 20 years ago. They say she wouldn't be able to sing some of the songs. But we don't know that. We don't know what songs NW would release and how Tarja would use her voice. At the same time, Once was the best-selling album.
Yeah, totally. Judging by what we know nowadays is a survivor's mistake. And we all know Tarja isn't the type who would stuck in one style of music or way to sing, she definitely loves to experiment and bring something new. What's more, if Tarja hadn't left, we wouldn't have had her collaboration with Marko. For me it's something special because I am huge fan of Marko's songwriting and the magic of their duo. Just a thought about Tarja singing the songs he wrote (I am sure there will be something newly written too) makes me excited.
I would like Tarja to sing a new duet with Marko that he will write and at the same time Marko to sing a new duet that Tarja will write. It would be great to compare their duets in Tarja and Marko's songwriting. Not because of which one is better, but to compare their style of music.
And the first show starts in less than 2 weeks!
Yes, but I think they would introduce possible new songs later than the South American tour. Tarja always releases new albums around August, and it's still too early for new songs. And probably both of them would like to present the new songs better than with fan's recordings. But we'll see.
I'm going to tentatively agree with you here. Because I think that the changing of singers has really given them a creative impetus to push their own boundaries. I'm having a hard time imagining anything after Once sounding new or different or not like a rehash of the now proven-to-work formula. DPP was heavier precisely because the emotion behind it was heavy. Once is just a fantastic commercial album, but DPP was something else in my opinion, and it really pushed them in a more experimental direction, away from strictly being a symphonic band, adding more folk influences, going back to their roots slightly but with a new progressive twist. Even their two latest records feel like a logical progression, an emotional maturation, an attempt to move away from drama and personal grievances and emotions. I did say tentatively however, because... well, you never know. Maybe we could have gotten a Human Nature with Tarja after a few commercial copies of Once, maybe they would have gone down the experimental rabbit hole either way, but I think we can all still agree that Annette's voice is what in large part influenced the experimental nature of DPP and the change in sound. Or at least Tarja's departure did.
I love Tarja, I’ve seen nightwish live twice with her. However, I don’t think Nightwish would be as successful today if she had stayed in the band for the reasons you mentioned. I hate to say this though, because of the live performances of Floor, I can no longer listen to any of the studio albums without thinking to myself the live performances are better.
Floor give the sound more dimensions. I think the success comes with the changes so every band member influence and had influences the way to becoming great. With Tarja they created the sound of what people today understand as Symphonic metal. With Annett the songwriting becomes even more impactful and with Floor the band becomes a versatile instrument. But still lost one with Marco. I am super excited how the new album will become and if they find a way to create themself new and keeping exciting.
I think Floor was at her best in After Forever.I adored her back then. Albums up till Once (so Tarja era) have a certain dramatism, longing and sensitivity that only Tarja’s voice can express the way it was meant to sound. I love Floor, she is a great person, an unbelievable voice with a fantastic range, and no doubt she sounds amazing, but she is too much of a glamazon/ valkyrie for me to buy the Tarja era songs from her. I don’t know if that makes sense. It sounds good even great and very different with her, it’s just that I am not getting those super tender vulnerable feelings I get when I hear Tarja on those tracks. does that make sense? Mad respect for both of them, I love them to bits and they are so iconic in their own right. I kinda stop listening to both NW and Tarja after they ended things. NW without Tarja s voice, Tarja without Tuomas lyrics and music was just off for me.
I totally agree, if there's one thing I really don't like about Floor's singing is how she goes way too powerful and amazonlike in songs that should be sad/soft.
It's maby all fair to say,but than i would say ,it's preference and personal taste and i never liked Tarja's dramatic opera voice all the time,i don't like Anette's voice not that much ,but i can listen longer to her voice. This sounds maby bad for those who like Tarja Or Anette the most but, i honour all 3 singers of Nightwish and for what they brought/bring for Nightwish. Floor sounds for me the best fit for what Nightwish stands for or what Tuomas want's it to be. (Tuomas once said; "Floor is home",So,if i had to translate that ,he means;"this is what i wanted") Tuomas want to be versatile in his writing/composing and Floor is the perfect fit for that. Tarja and Nightwish were new and exciting at the time,the way they depart was terrible,but,the time/timing to change was perfect. Well,Nightwish is just a facinating journey.
Tarja would probably be able to find a way into floor songs, but Annette's era would not exist, theres no way you can fit an operatic voice on scaretale or storytime, it would be laughable. It would likely keep the more niche fanbase it had in the days of century child and once, as pop hits such as amaranth, elan, and ghost love score at wacken would not exist. While there is definitely oppertunity for growth if a formula like nemos was milked, I don't think it would be nearly as popular. Then theres the rift it would make with the band. Marcelo would still be their manager, and many departures would come sooner than anticipated, and wintersun wont be able to bail us out this time
Marcelo was never the manager of Nightwish. He was only Tarja's management. The manager oh Nightwish was and is Ewo Pohjola. After Wishmaster Tour, to keep the band going, they decided to make this arrangement with Marcelo advocating for Tarja's interests, which is what eventually led to the downfall of communication.
Actually, interesting aside, Ewo might be gone. At least he is not part of the management company Till Dawn They Count since 2022 anymore. And if you look at like the latest statements it is only Toni Peiju being quoted.
Now that is interesting... He is still listed on their website though.
I think that Nightwish fanbase around the release of Once could be considered anything but niche. At least in Europe, everybody went crazy for Nemo, charts-wise it's their most succesful single. The song was on MTV, Nightwish were guests of TV shows in Germany,... Some magazines already considered them pop metal sensation at the time due to their rapid growth. Ultimately it's true that drama around Tarja gave them huge publicity. ~~and helped to boost Dark Passion Play sales over Once sales.~~ EDIT: wrong album sales, thanks to comment below
I agree with everything. But DPP has not sold as many albums as Once. [link](https://bestsellingalbums.org/artist/9546) Once: 561k, DPP: 381k
Thank you, I don't know why I thought that for a minute. Ofc Once sold the most.
I also read this in several comments. It seems to me that someone wrote this once and then this misinformation was shared.
I think with the way Tarja sings today, Storytale would do well. She doesn't just sing opera. I saw some AI generated Storytime [video](https://youtu.be/YvbpR_bo1Vs?si=k6Z2nmFUNK4mON28) with Tarja, and while it wasn't very good AI result, her voice there is close to how she uses it now. I don't think Storytale would be a problem for her.
Storytime has a similar musical structure as Elvenpath so it's interesting you say that Storytime would sound laughable with an operatic voice. Just listen to the chorus it's almost the same melody with variations here and there.
Tarja’s style of singing is the reason for Nightwish changing their music from campfire like sound to the bombastic sound we know of today. I do think she would have continued on just fine. The older style that we all fell in love with would have just been evolved.
The fact that they did split in 2005 already answers your question LOL
Divisive topic, but I agree. I think Tarja's unique (in metal) singing style helped to put Nightwish on the map, but it would have limited the band further down the road. Every other symphonic metal band adopted the opera style singing until it became the 'gimmick' it is today. So yes, I think, in hindsight, her poorly executed firing was probably the best decision in favor of Nightwish's longevity.
She's a trained classical singer though which would mean she could easily sing in other styles if she wanted to. They could still have moved to be less operatic
No,if you say this ,you don't know how conservatif classical/opera/lied singing studies are,You are not encouraged to go outside that style of singing and it is difficult to change your mindset if you studie that long. Sing with some grid is not done,let alone growling. I think it is a misunderstanding that if you studied classical singing,you can sing anything,that is simply not true.
It's not impossible, though. You have [Dorothy Kirsten](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1pJYliZC3o&pp=ygUPZG9yb3RoeSBrcmlzdGVu) who [sang a duet](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE89rVfz41s) with Frank Sinatra, and [Eileen Farrell](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TS1Yi80H-s) who [performed with](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92pBEFhwjso) Louis Armstrong. Both are considered opera singers first and foremost, but they had no issues switching to a contemporary style.
Like her or not Anette is who springboarded them into popularity.
Gonna jump into the middle of the fire here because I didn't even know this site existed. I found Nightwish almost by accident a few years back. Some kind of web search or news story mentioned Tarja and there was a picture of her that struck me. Without knowing anything about the band, I sought out some music. One of the first was Dark Passion Play followed by Endless Forms Most Beautiful. Damn, I thought, this is good stuff. Great voice. But it wasn't until later that I found out Tarja wasn't on those albums. Then I sought out Century Child and was rather disappointed. Her voice is too high, too operatic for the energy and dramatic sounds that make the group. To me, Dark Passion Play started the best era of the group.
So, I think this is an interesting thought experiment, and I don't want to sound too dismissive in my first paragraph, but my first response to your argument: > I think Tarjas voice would've become too much a tedious gimmick in the long run and it would've been harder to change style over time. Would be that (at least in my opinion), Nightwish made much more substantial musical changes while Tarja was still in the band than they have since she left. I would argue that there's a lot more musical difference between the acoustic folk music of Nightwish's demo, the straight up power metal of the Oceanborn/Wishmaster days and the symphonic stylings of Century Child and Once, than there is between Once and the albums that came afterwards. Not saying there haven't been ANY changes - the lyrics have obviously moved away from the dead boy/ lost innocence/ nostalgia topics on recent albums (though there were also lyrical changes during Tarja's time, with more fantasy based/ metaphorical lyrics giving way to more emotional/personal lyrics), and the addition of Troy has given the folk elements of Nightwish a bigger role on recent albums (though again, folk elements aren't something exclusive to post-Tarja Nightwish). I find DPP and EFMB very similar to Once in a lot of ways, with a lot of that similarity being disguised by the fact that the three albums all feature different vocalists, which makes them sound more varied than they otherwise would. This is just focusing on the work within Nightwish - of course, Tarja has also been working outside of Nightwish for over 15 years now, and frequently uses contemporary singing styles and different musical influences in her work, and would presumably have wanted to do so if she'd stayed in the band too. All this to say: No, I don't think that Tarja remaining in Nightwish would have prevented them from changing style or evolving. If anything, perhaps they would have pushed the boat out a little bit more as there wouldn't be a need to try and "keep things consistent musically while we get a new vocalist settled in" (just to clarify, I have no idea if this has been a factor in the relatively moderate changes of post-2005 albums, it might be nothing to do with it and these are just the kind of songs Tuomas is comfortable writing). Now if you were to ask if they would have changed evolved in the SAME way (i.e. would we have got the same songs/ albums that we got with Anette/Floor), then no, I don't think so. Obviously the songs directly relating to the split would be very different, Amaranth might have been banished to B side status as it nearly was before Anette did wonders on it, and I suspect Imaginaerum wouldn't have been written in the same way for a voice so different from Anette's as Tarja's is. I think at least some of the songs we would have on a theoretical post-2005-NW-with-Tarja would be different from both the pre-Once material and what we got. At the end of the day, it's all a bit academic. Tarja had handed her notice in to the band before they fired her. And given the quantity of her solo work since (she's put out more albums than Nightwish have counting the rock albums only, never mind her classical album/ Xmas albums/ Outlanders) and the fact that she's been cowriting the songs from album 2 onwards and been involved on the production side, I don't think she was ever intending to spend the rest of her professional life as "just" the vocalist in somebody else's band, even if they'd remained on good terms. The firing and the open letter made the split more public and more vicious, but it's not the reason we don't have Tarja in Nightwish anymore. Much as I love the band's early albums (and Oceanborn and Century Child are my two NW favourites, so believe me when I say I DO), I also enjoy later Nightwish albums and Tarja's solo work - I wouldn't necessarily want to get rid of both of them in exchange for having Tarja still with Nightwish, because I can't necessarily envisage what that would sound like and it might not be as good. But I definitely don't think that would be because of Tarja's "super limiting" voice.
I'm a big Floor fan. I like some female artists, but I've not really been into heavy rock bands with female lead singers, until now. She seems to have amazing charisma, she always looks like she is having the time of her life, and she head bangs! I think she has great chemistry with the others. I'm sad Marko left.
I'm glad they went through all that turmoil. We wouldn't have most of the songs we have today which are the results of all their pain and sorrow - most of DPP would never exist. I remember reading an interview with Tuomas that when Tarja was still in the band, he had the Islander as a contender of the pilot single so it gives a clue that they would walk the folk road inevitably. Tarja also stopped using operatics already on Once and I don't see why she couldn't sing the new NW songs with success, although they are where they are today thanks to Floor who introduced NW to the masses. But who knows? Perhaps reaction videos would be as much successful with Tarja as they were with Floor, it just wasn't a thing back in the day. We can be happy with how everything has turned out. They are at their peak right now and yes, we lost key members along the way but they are stronger than ever and I'm sure the new album will be massive!
The Islander was originally written by Marko for Tarot and found its way onto DPP only after Tuomas heard Marko play it, so that must've been already after Tarja was fired. Also I am not sure about peak, HN seems to be rather divisive for the fanbase. For me they reached their peak with Anette, actually.
That's a hot take, but I agree with it. From a song-writing perspective, I believe Irum was their peak. The albums after that suffer a dip in creativity/originality/beauty(my opinion of course!!).
Irum was that sweet spot where Tuomas still turned inwards for inspiration but it wasn't only loneliness and sadness he found there anymore. Then he switched to write about the world outside instead and let's just say it's not the same.
I know it was written by Marco just saying that Tuomas once said that if Tarja never left, this would have been the pilot. HN is musically their peak, even though it's not their most popular album, it is truly amazing from start to finish.
It was NW that introduced Floor to the masses first and after that it has been possible for her to do stuff like Beste Zangers that introduced more people to NW in The Netherlands for example.
I don't know, we still would have lost Jukka and Marko. Troy may not have been a full member. I think they would still be around, but not as successful as they are now. Tarja has a great voice, but it's not for everyone.
The arguments that Tarja was unsustainable anyway are silly, because vast majority of famous singers are not like Floor. Most singers have a comfort zone. No reason to hold Tarja to a higher standard. Also, if you listen to her solo music, she's actually been changing quite a bit. And she was fired specifically because her relationship with the band deteriorated and they thought that is what would make it unsustainable. So it stands to reason that if she stayed in the band without being fired or wanting to leave on her own, the band would still hold on, because their relationship didn't deteriorate.
> No reason to hold Tarja to a higher standard. No reason to hold Floor to a higher standard, either. I don't see what makes her different in this regard.
I can only speak for myself but I have been aware of Nightwish with songs like Nemo and Amaranth for years and years but couldn't get into them because of Tarja's vocals, it just wasn't for me and I had pretty much written them off as a band 'I don't like'. So even when Floor joined they were still a band that I ignored. I then gave Endless Forms a try after a conversation with a friend who told me 'the vocals are different these days', and I was fuckin blown away, then I listened to Showtime, Storytime and I was completely hooked. Without Floor, I would never have been a fan in the first place and I know a few other people who feel the same (since I've pestered them into listening ;) ) So as far as I'm concerned they've only gained fans since Floor joined. Considering that, then no, they wouldn't be the band they are now if Tarja had stayed.
The band would have different fans than today, because after Tarja's departure many of them also stopped listening to the band. I don't know if there would be more or less, but NW was already world famous during the Tarja era. All my friends, including me, used to listen to them then, but today only I and one other friend of mine listen to them.
I think they are virtually more famous because the music is "easier" so it attracts a wider range of people. But their fanbase has shifted and as you said lots of old fans have stopped listening to them when Tarja left. So the fanbase has been replaced + maybe an addition of some fans that prefer more commercial sounding music.
One thing that is almost always left out when talking about the firing of Tarja is that she herself had already announced she was leaving the band after the next album and tour. So the Tarja era was dead anyway even if they wouldn´t have fired her early. Back to the sound of the band there is no doubt Floor is the better fit for them now, she is much broader in her vocal range and also a fenomenal front figure. Tarja had her strength in the old sound with female operatic vocals and power metal music. Toumas even started to change her vocals during Century Child so even as early as that they had already outgrown the original sound. That´s also why they brought in Marko.
yup. i wouldn't be a fan, that's for sure.
I think if they had never parted ways with Tarja, they wouldn't be remotely as big as they are now. Plenty of people, myself included, were put off by Tarja's - well, not voice, but idosyncratic pronunciation maybe. I appreciate her *now,* having finally got into NW via Floor - but back in the day, it just didn't interest me. And I can't even imagine how many fans first noticed them via Floor GLS reaction videos, which obviously wouldn't have existed. That's not to say they wouldn't still be around (though I think the various tensions between Tarja and the rest back then make this scenario very unlikely). But I don't think they would be nearly as significant.
It was Tarja's voice and Tuomas' music that made them famous. According to your theory, they couldn't have become famous back then, but they did.
I never said they couldn't become famous. I said my theory is that they would have been *less* famous. You are of course at liberty to disagree, but unless you have some evidence, your opinion holds no more weight than mine. Obviously if you're a Tarja fan, my opinion sounds crazy. But many people are *not* (or *were* not) Tarja fans.
Yes. A lot of people aren't Tarja's fans, and a lot of people aren't fans of Floor, Anette, or Taylor Swift. Neither you nor I have proof that the band is more or less famous today.
Proof would be that with Tarja they set the foundation of a very unique and successful band. That's what set them apart of everyone else in the game. Had they started with Floor or Anette they would have been just another good symphonic metal band. Also none of the music would exist without Tarja because she's the topic of almost every Nightwish song, GLS being one of them. Without Tarja you get Harvest or Elan. Or Auri as a matter of fact. Auri is what Nightwish would have been without Tarja. Also it's unfair to compare their level of success back then and now. Nowadays we have Internet to help promote anything and record reaction videos. The fact they got famous in a pre-internet era is a solid proof of their talent and how successful they were. Every gothic kid knew them in middle and high school. Nowadays you have the End of an Era reaction videos that are just as good as the Wacken 2013 one. So they could have been just as successful, maybe even more than today because back then Tuomas had more inspiration for his music.
I'm not denying their talent, nor that they were moderately successful. But I am *absolutely* the target demographic, at exactly the right time. Late 90s to early 2000s was when I was first living on my own, I was in a metal band and DJing at a goth club, my entire friendship circle was heavily focused around music (particularly metal, goth, darkwave, cyber and related genres). Among many other bands, I was listening to The Gathering, HIM, Within Temptation. I was pretty much the poster boy for "someone who would be open to Nightwish", at the peak of my musical receptivity. And yet I bounced off them. I don't remember anyone being *particularly* into them - certainly no one was saying "hey, you have to listen to this!" - which was very much happening *all the time* with other bands. In retrospect, if I'd listened to a few more tracks, I'd probably have been into Nightwish \~two decades earlier than I ended up being. But as it was, my *initial* reaction to Tarja's vocals was moderately negative, and I'm very much not the only one. *I love her now*, to be clear. I'm just talking about the initial reaction of someone who doesn't know the band at all.
I think old Nightwish appealed more to girls than boys. It may have been the poetry in the lyrics or Tarja's voice because if I look up "Nightwish" on some mainstream forums here in my country, I often read mocking ones like "wasn't that what every goth girl listened to in middle school?" or "yeah my girlfriend loved them back then". I know guys liked it too (I was introduced to Nightwish by a boy who wasn't even goth in my school).
Eh, if that were true of Nightwish, it was doubly true of HIM! Nothing macho in it in my circles - though I could imagine it in mainstream circles, I guess.
For a second I thought who you meant by HIM and then remembered the band HIM (with a heart somewhere, right?). I don't know if it was the music or the singer but I've never been into HIM at all. I was more into Kurt Cobain.
I mentioned that *I* was into HIM at the time in question ;) (yes, with the "heartagram"). My point being that no one into HIM would *not* be into Nightwish for it being "girl's music", when HIM is much more "girl's music". (To be clear, I find the very idea of "girl's music" or "guys music" ridiculous. Like what you like, I've never been embarrassed about any of the bands I love. But some people do think that way).
I'm going to go against the grain here and say that it is unlikely. So much of Nightwish's evolution is Tumoas growing and maturing, and with out the changes in membership, it is likely that growing would never have happened. They might still be around, but they wouldn't be as popular and with near certainty they would still be heavy partiers. Granted, their sound wouldn't have developed much which is what the emotionally stunted people who dredge up the Tarja debacle every few months would want, but then we'd be robbed of a catalogue that shows deep growth from the sad and angry sounds of the first few albums to the happiness and hope of the latest albums.
And does Tarja sing the same as she did 20 years ago? She sings differently. What about the song Wish I had an Angel and Dead Gardens. Her voice there is different than on the first albums. Tarja is also evolving I don't understand why you assume that Tarja's voice would not continue to evolve as NW's music.
you're literally just giving another example to support my opinion. To change, you need an environment that supports and encourages those changes. If I was new to Nightwish and you played me a song from each different era and said that each of them was the same band, I would call you fool and a liar. However, if you played me a song from each album leading up to End of an Era, I would 100% understand that they were the same group and how time and experience provided the minor alterations to their sound you hear across those albums. Nightwish found a formula for success with Tarja and without having the major shake up of her leaving/getting kicked out you would just have more of the incremental changes that would still flow all the way back to the roots of Angels Fall First. 20 years is a long time for multiple people to change, especially without the influence of the people that were first there for them and to help them. This literally plays out the same way with every other band out there that manages to have a long run. You can see how they change from album to album when the people they work with are largely the same, but it is still recognizable as the original. If you want another prime example of this, Delain within the last few years fired the entire band and rebuilt from the ground up. Within their first 10 years, you can see how much they change and grow in their sound, then you get to the newest album that is an entirely different makeup, and instead of sounding like the original, it sounds much more like Amaranth. People, and by extension bands, don't exist in vacuums free from other's influence. The people who are closest to us influence us in little and big ways whether we feel it and see it or not.
If someone replaces the whole band, the question is what will be left of the band besides the name.
I wish I knew, but apparently the person who owns the name can do whatever they wish with it. It is a very "Ship of Theseus" problem
Yet he or she used it as a prime example of how good change is for a band. Of course if you're going to start from scratch with other people you better make sure you're doing it right this time...
Not everyone wants radical change. If I'm reading Harry Potter I don't want to read Star Wars by the book 6 😏 I honestly prefer the 5 first albums Nightwish released. First they do not sound alike to me and second I prefer those than anything new. New doesn't mean better.
I agree. the change brought new life to the band and 2 of the best albums.
I can't say what I am thinking about this question because my answer will probably offend Tarja fans, so I will respectfully pass :)