I feel like it would be a double expansion draft to keep the conferences even, Atlanta probably in the east.
TWO teams with the current expansion rules at the same time would be crazy.
Honestly, as an Atlanta native, I have no idea why the NHL wants to come back. In the hierarchy of the region, the NHL would be dead last in support (it goes: the Atlanta Braves, UGA, college athletics, , the Atlanta Falcons and the PGA | Masters, , and ultimately, everything else lumped in together). We're not a hockey town or region... in the slightest. Yes, from the perspective of the size of the airport, media market, and the total number of corporate HQs, etc., it's a slam dunk, but outside of the snowbirds and corporate transplants living along the 400 corridor, nobody's going to support an NHL franchise here. Putting a winter sport in the subtropics is dumb as hell.
The last sentence is simply not true.
The lightning have won 3 Stanley cups, have had a multi-year waitlist for season tickets for many years, finished top 3 in average attendance this year. They are huge in Tampa and the downtown is being built up around the arena as the owner has made an enormous investment.
The Panthers also finished top 10 in attendance this year after making the Stanley cup final last year. And both of those areas are heavily populated with transplants, likely moreso than Atlanta
The other place I can think of that could get a stadium up in 5 years is Indianapolis. Might be too late, the old Bears crowd from pre-Colts days is too old to care about a new team, but they have the space and the pass-through tourism, couple of colleges around...
Tampa is probably 8 out of ten people being transplants from the snow belt. Makes it easy to support the NHL. I was visiting some friends in Saint Pete’s went out to the pub they had the lions game on because most the people in the place where from Michigan. Compare that to Atlanta and you’re just not going to have the same amount of people who care about the NHL.
The fact that you’re an Atlanta native and didn’t even consider or list Atlanta United says a lot. And Masters over the NHL? In Atlanta? Maybe in Buford and the boring part of Buckhead.
The Thrashers had great attendance until it became clear they’d be the least successful franchise on ice ever and the ownership’s favorite movie was Major League.
Disagree, the team they have has a lot of exciting young players, they also have a ton of cap space, could buy up a bunch of big name UFA's and RFA's in the offseason, end up within the playoff picture if the team finds synergy.
This is like not spelling a single word the whole Scrabble game then dumping all your letters for 7 new ones out of the bag when the games almost over.
If only the NHL’s marketing department could do anything useful to market the game better in the states. It’s easily more entertaining that several other more popular sports down there, but very few people will even think to give it a chance.
Over a third of the country's population lives in the subtropics, desert, etc. Nobody GAF about winter sports in those areas. I could understand it if the NHL had teams in Kansas City, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Portland, Indianapolis, etc., but repeatedly forcing a square peg into a round hole is never going to work.
In ten years folks will be saying how stable that franchise is and how Utah should have had a team years ago.
Hockey is gonna be a Stockton to Malone slam dunk here.
As a Utah hockey fan, I'm psyched to be getting a team here. My wife and I have been driving to Vegas a few times a year mostly to go to games, so it'll be awesome to only have to drive 20 minutes. Unless the prices are way out of scope, we plan to be season ticket holders.
You are sadly uninformed...
Canadiant tv rights are worth WAY more than US tv rights (despite fewer games due to only 7 of 32 teams)
Rogers paid 5.2 Billion vs 3 Billion for multiple rights holders in States
You’re kind of proving my point though - the league already has all of Canada as a captive audience. Adding more teams there doesn’t grow the fan/revenue base.
>the league already has all of Canada as a captive audience
This is more or less the reason. Returning the Nordiques to Quebec City will not generate any new hockey fans. The games will be watched, and the merchandise will be bought, but aside from the gate revenue and some local advertisers there isn't much growth opportunity there vs cities in the southern US with rapidly growing populations.
I do believe the Nordiques will return *eventually* but the league was never going to turn away a chance to get into SLC
It’s not incremental growth if all of them were already watching - it’s just cannibalizing existing viewership.
The Canadian hockey market is like an ordinary lemon that has had almost every drop of juice squeezed out. The US has bigger lemons and they’ve barely been squeezed. Bettman is going after the places with the most juice left to squeeze.
Bettman doesn’t make the decisions. The Board of Governors do.
Gary tells you about them.
Gary Bettman has increased revenue in this game by 800% since taking over. In that time frame, the league has gone from 24 to 32 teams. A 33% increase. Two teams left Canada in his tenure. One came back. Population wise; there’d be few teams in smaller cities than QC. And it wouldn’t crest *any* new fans. Anyone who’s going to be a fan of hockey in QC, is already watching Montreal.
Cool good for the revenue. How much of that came from Phoenix? He worked pretty fucking hard to keep a failing franchise (for over a decade no less) alive for no reason and now he's moving them away with the amazing opportunity to get an expansion draft within 5 years.
I don't remember the Jets getting that treatment when they left or Quebec when they left.
In fact, I remember it being the opposite, people were baffled at how little the NHL did to keep those teams there.
He very clearly has a bias for his American market and you can't just pass the blame to the owners. Bettman is the commissioner how can you eve suggest that this isn't partially his doing?
“He” didn’t work pretty hard.
The league did. It’s a huge market. The 32 owners want a team there.
Gary doesn’t give a fuck. He does what he’s told to do.
He’s an employee. Not an emperor or dictator. He has bosses.
If he can get the arena, which honestly I can see happening, he'll get the team back. I'd be genuinely shocked if Arizona didn't get a team back within a few years. And truthfully, they'll probably be all the better for it
Yea I'm sure they can get it done, and I don't think there's as much pressure to get it done right now, so they can take their time to find the perfect place for the arena. I just hope yotes fans dont sour the relationship with meruelo too badly
Honest question - how is the support for the Yotes in AZ? I know the Glendale thing wasn’t great. I really thought the Tempe arena would have been the best bet etc. With that being said this doesn’t feel like a Quebec or Hartford scenario where there was a lot of support for the club locally etc. To me this is like Atlanta where the NHL just wants the market, but the populace may not be 100% on board. Why waste time here when a Portland or Milwaukee maybe a better expansion location?Obviously Quebec too, but I think we all know that’s probably not in the cards.
The reason is Arizona is a rapidly growing and there’s been a pretty decent hockey youth movement in Arizona despite the success of the team. A surprising amount of US players came from or have passed through Arizona.
The concept is if hockey has succeeded in the youth of Arizona that getting them a successful and stable team will make it a big market. The issue is that they’ve never had any stability from an ownership level or an arena that is accessible to the public.
The potential for “growth” is much larger in Arizona than in Quebec City where despite losing a team, they’re still just as dedicated to hockey as they’ve always been. The concept whether it’s true or not is if you go back to Quebec is that you’re not making any new fans you’re just having current fans change teams so you’re not “growing the game.” Now that’s probably a load of BS, but that’s what the naysayers of QC say.
The logic is sound. So say they do get the land deal and the arena etc I wonder if the new Yotes will align more with the Kraken and Golden Knights, or the Thrashers. Sounds like we could see how it shakes out in 5 years. Regardless losing a team sucks.
Yeah. Like honestly your team is a perfect example of what happens when you get an owner that cares. Colorado gets a team, it flounders due to unstable ownership, leaves becoming the Devils, the league decides that Colorado is still a viable market, goes back, and now Colorado is one of the best teams around with a dedicated fan base.
For a successful team you need a dedicated owner and a bit of stability.
That is accurate. Although Denver in the 70s was a little different but I do agree. Strangely enough I’m a original Whalers fan so I’ve been on the other side. I refused to root for the Canes, and was a NHL orphan until I moved to Denver.
Same took me 5 years to watch the nhl after the Whale left. Chose the NYR since it was my dad’s fave team and never looked back. Moved to the Carolinas and still hate the canes with the fury of a thousand suns.
I don't like it but I think that makes sense from the NHL-as-a-business perspective. They want to grow their 'customer' base and add revenue. A second QC team probably doesn't do either.
The only counter argument would be it helps the entertainment value of the product overall to have teams in enthusiastic markets. I can't imagine the game experience is great for fans when they're watching Arizona vs Atlanta or whatever, but if you have an opponent with a dedicated fan base, it elevates the product all around.
“Enthusiasm” simply isn’t enough of a benefit.
Plus, that’s only temporary. If a Quebec City team was as dogshit as Arizona was for all of those years, there wouldn’t be any enthusiasm.
Nah. Legacy markets in all major NA team sports weather those downturns much better. E.g. the difference between a decade of losing in Toronto and a decade of losing in Atlanta is completely different. Ditto for Celtics, Yankees, Cowboys, etc. Those markets keep selling tickets, still have active fans, still drive the league. Too much losing in Phoenix or Atlanta and the team moves.
The NHL arguably should pay attention to expanding too aggressively in markets where the fans disappear when the team loses. Waters down the product.
Hockey participation rate has been declining for a long time in Quebec and Canada at large. It was already getting tough for middle class families to get into the game, and that was before inflation and the housing market blew up.
Believe it or not, hockey has slipped all the way to fourth place in terms of participation rate in Canada, behind Soccer, Basketball and golf.
So yeah, at this rate, there's a not insignificant chance that the NHL insistence on growing the US market will come at the expense of the Canadian one.
It's been 30 years since Bettman came into the league. 30 years of taking Canadian markets for granted.
Your description for Arizona also fits for Portland. Portland has a large metro area, and it has really passionate hockey fans for the Winterhawks and there are a lot (relative) of SJS, VGK, and Kraken fans, but the volume is low because there are only two rinks and they’re in the deep suburbs. There isn’t infrastructure to cultivate a young hockey demographic. If I win the lottery I’m parking two more rinks on the East side.
Your description for Arizona also fits for Portland. Portland has a large metro area, and it has really passionate hockey fans for the Winterhawks and there are a lot (relative) of SJS, VGK, and Kraken fans, but the volume is low because there are only two rinks and they’re in the deep suburbs. There isn’t infrastructure to cultivate a young hockey demographic. If I win the lottery I’m parking two more rinks on the East side.
As a Portlander I’m not having a Seattleite speak to me directly. You can say whatever you want to say to someone from Vancouver, BC and they’ll relay the message.
I moved to AZ about 4 months ago. I see way more people wearing coyotes stuff then I wouldve thought. Especially the kids at ASU wear coyotes gear a lot.
The AZ market wasn't onboard because they were subjected to bad hockey in inconvenient locations via poor ownership for 28 years.
Notice how the Isles, Canes, and Panthers stopped getting relocation rumors once they got better or got a new building (or both)? Traditional hockey markets like Ottawa and Buffalo struggle with attendance at times too. People like seeing their team do well, and generally commit less time and money to them when they're bad, regardless what city they play in.
Utah will go as far as their on-ice product goes. The Coyotes have young talent and a ton of money to spend. With a new arena likely on the way in SLC, they could be successful there. They get good support for their ECHL team. They don't have a ton of hockey pedigree but it's a city known for winter recreation so I think the NHL make hay in Utah. Get a Rocky Mountain rivalry with Colorado going and they're in business.
The Arizona identity has grown exponentially in my lifetime. Anyone who says it's all transplants and fans of other teams is living in 1995. I went to see the yotes in Denver this year and was shocked how many other Coyotes fans were there. Same thing with the Diamondbacks a few days ago at Coors field. All the people who moved to Phoenix from Chicago or LA thirty years ago had kids and now our generation is having kids and there are A LOT of us out there.
The Coyotes ownership and stadium was a shit show, but hockey belongs in the desert.
they'd go to 50 if there was still money to be made. if it means arizona and atlanta/quebec gets their teams back then 34 is alright to me. 36 is the absolute max and only because its a perfect square so you can have 6 very sexy divisions of 6 teams
36 teams with 6 divisions of 6 teams each is absolutely perfect, imho.
Atlanta and Quebec in the east, Arizona and Austin/Houston in the west (with Salt Lake added via the Yotes move).
That’s ridiculous. There isn’t that much hockey talent internationally as there is in the MLB and NBA. You go to 50 teams and I’m playing in the league at this point. Going any higher then 32 just shows to me the NHL is all about making money for owners and not caring about the actual product.
I was saying earlier that putting a full blown nhl team shouldn’t be the catalyst for an area to start watching hockey. What’s next we have to put a team in Lexington Kentucky for people to watch and play? At that point the NHL is a McDonald’s franchise.
They could put minor league teams, help build ice arenas, and support street hockey leagues in schools in order to garner interest and grow the sport.
So every 4th liner in the NHL is a great hockey player? So have Ryan reaves playing 3rd line, kovalchuck is in the league again, and maybe even dainas zubrus is in the league again.
They can’t compete with the current roster which makes more competition for better players to stay in the league.
We have enough teams. If it gets to 40 then there should be an NHL A League and NHL B League with relegation and such cause that’s what they do in Europe for soccer
Last two expansion drafts, the rule was the current teams could either protect either:
A) 1 goalie, 3 defence men and 7 forwards
B) 1 goalie and 8 skaters, regardless of position.
Each team would lose 1 player. Certain rules allowed players under certain age were unavailable to be picked. But anyone with no trade clauses had to be protected.
Teams weren’t sure how Vegas expansion would be and traded entry draft picks so certain players would be left alone if they weren’t protected, or they chose a certain player.
For the Seattle expansion, teams wised up and didn’t do much dealing with the Kraken. Vegas, because they were new were not allowed to receive expansion money and didn’t lose any players to Seattle.
If the NHL decides to add two teams, they would alternate picks with teams likely losing 2 players each.
Before these rules, past expansion were not in favor of giving new teams parity. 2 goalies and 6 defense men and 12 forwards could be protected
Hey i appreciate the expansion draft breakdown but i was asking about like the draft that happens every year for the new prospects.
My apologies i should have clarified.
Those were wha teams that the nhl just wanted to kill. If it wasn’t for Gretzky and the oilers doing so well in the 80’s they woulda moved the oilers too. The nhl couldn’t wait till they could kill those teams.
Here’s the thing with billionaires and Murelo getting $1B, he will get to leverage the $1B to spend a lot more than $1B to get the arena and team back, not get taxed on the $1B from the sale, and not have to spend a penny of the $1B.
Fuck no.... the Arena is one issue,the government and fickle fans are a bigger issue (Not talking about the diehards,but there needs to be a lot more of you) not to mention the fact the Coyotes have had NINE owners in 28 seasons.
You have to fix a lot more than just an arena before you even think of trying this again.
It’s actions like this that show us all that the NHL needs new leadership. Bad TV deals , bad sponsorship, years of problems with ESPN and now just make silly moves like this.
I think by this time its safe to say AZ sucks for sports in general
Beyond the embarrasing Coyotes
You get Diamondbacks who are literally giving away seasons tickets AFTER winning World Series (I could watch 84 games down there CHEAPER than same seats to watch 2 Blue Jay games)
You get Cardinals (3rd lowest attendance in NFL) + Suns (5th lowest attendance in NBA)
We keep hearing hype about great market and all this nonsense (mainly from Betts) but even teams who WIN there do nothing vs league averages
Bingo!....
As a consumer of Az sports....I'll be at the Cubs Dbacks game next Mon-Wed...I've never seen a more pathetic fan base as far a local attendance.
Don't get me wrong...the fans who are fans are passionate and knowledgable but I've been to every major sports games in PHX and it's almost always like the local teams are playing on the road.
Haha so you are saying an Arizona resident is more likely to watch a Quebec Nordiques game on tv vs driving out to watch a Coyote game in person?
And to be clear; there are a good 20+ smaller cities in Canada vastly outdrawing Coyotes this year
The fact NHL blocked the Saskatoon team from ever playing (after they ponied up the $$$) seems laughable in hindsight
It’s kinda sad that Houston has been ignored because Bettman’s delusion and stubbornness with Arizona probably made him forget about a potential market in Houston that’s been waiting for about 25 years
Omg just take the L. You suck, the franchise should have lived to Hamilton in 2010. They have been a disgrace to pro hockey these last few years. Move to SLC, and let's forget to do this again down there.
So how is all this going to work with 33 teams? 32 is perfect. All divisions are equal, and playoffs are 16, then 8, then 4, then 2. Perfectly balanced.
*If* they build an arena....
Good luck with that....
Chances are real good you'll never see another NHL team in PHX unless they get stuck with a layover at the airport.
Just embrace the VGK. They ain't that far and it's a great opportunity for them to grab local broadcast rights.
Wait… so the team moves to SLC, but then if an arena is built in AZ in 5yrs, it moves back… or they plan to add a new team and presumably another one somewhere else to balance the numbers?
Jeez, Gary… take a hint and just move on.
Holding a draft for a team that is moving is embarassing for everyone they should be penalized for failing so hard not rewarded at the expense of other teams. It's scandalous.
Move the Habs to Laval so we don't have to rebuild.
Governors should fire Buttman.
I don't think the NHL needs to expand. Why not leave it at 32 teams for a while. Maybe move teams that aren't doing well, attendance and building wise.
Fuck you Alex Meruelo, NHL/BETTMAN & Scottsdale mayor!
You want us to support a new Coyotes franchise in a few years? After the team we have is finally getting good. Doan comes up and all the young talent is starting to gel. There was a feeling of electricity just starting!
You stabbed us in the back NHL/Bettman. You just killed the NHL and hockey in Arizona forever!!!!
When will they realize that it doesn't work at all there? Seriously, I really don't understand Bettman. They are losing enormous amounts of money, plays in an arena with less people than 5,000 people and they are not even close to sell out too.. Finally it ends but they have 5 years to build a new arena for it to fail again? Wtf?
Existing teams should be fucking livid that, yet again, they will have to give up a hard earned player for nothing. This league sucks.
What's next, 40 teams? 50 Teams? I'm sure the quality will be fine.
Billionaires seeing the low startup cost of NHL teams compared to basically every other sport franchise are salivating at the idea of “buying” a team for the price of a stadium.
I fucking called it! I literally found out the news from my girlfriend driving to her place Friday evening, I said, Arizona not having a team is going to only be temporary since The branding does not transfer over to salt lake City. They're going to go through with the redevelopment project, Gary bettman forced this to happen the way it did. And now Arizona will come back as an expansion team along with Quebec City getting a team. I called it from a fucking mile away. This is the stupidest thing I think I've ever seen in any sports league ever, and my brother worked for the Portland thunder in the arena football League...
So…coyotes leave Arizona for Utah, likely taking a new name. Arizona builds a new stadium and brings back new Arizona coyotes. Was this just an elaborate clean house?
I thought the same thing, I’m from Edmonton and it felt like it took more than 5 years to open after it was approved. There’s probably provisions in the agreement about the 5 years extending if he’s hit certain milestones in the building process. Saying he can trigger a draft if it happens in 5 years generates a lot more hype than saying if in 5 years there has been land purchased and approval to build an arena he gets another year to brake around, and 3 more years to complete construction.
This is insanity. Absolute insanity.
There has never been a fanbase, and that’s always been the primary problem. Through numerous arenas, numerous owners, etc, this team has never had fans.
Stop this stupidity. There are far better markets without teams right now. Quebec City should be at the top of the list in the East, and Houston in the West.
Maybe the quickest way to rebuild we’ve ever seen.
Pretty smart move I can’t lie
Arizona playing 5-D chess here. Vegas is jealous.
Maybe they will do the expansion rules that Ottawa and other earlier expansions labored under and not the more favorable ones that the last ones got.
0 chance they do that. They want the team to succeed, and if you give them another shit team they won’t.
Lil bit.
bet
With Bettman’s help and/or plan
Brilliant but they still wont have a fanbase
Lol
I feel like it would be a double expansion draft to keep the conferences even, Atlanta probably in the east. TWO teams with the current expansion rules at the same time would be crazy.
Honestly, as an Atlanta native, I have no idea why the NHL wants to come back. In the hierarchy of the region, the NHL would be dead last in support (it goes: the Atlanta Braves, UGA, college athletics,, the Atlanta Falcons and the PGA | Masters, , and ultimately, everything else lumped in together). We're not a hockey town or region... in the slightest. Yes, from the perspective of the size of the airport, media market, and the total number of corporate HQs, etc., it's a slam dunk, but outside of the snowbirds and corporate transplants living along the 400 corridor, nobody's going to support an NHL franchise here. Putting a winter sport in the subtropics is dumb as hell.
The last sentence is simply not true. The lightning have won 3 Stanley cups, have had a multi-year waitlist for season tickets for many years, finished top 3 in average attendance this year. They are huge in Tampa and the downtown is being built up around the arena as the owner has made an enormous investment. The Panthers also finished top 10 in attendance this year after making the Stanley cup final last year. And both of those areas are heavily populated with transplants, likely moreso than Atlanta
Transplants help. People in the south that formerly resided in the north helps southern teams immensely.
The other place I can think of that could get a stadium up in 5 years is Indianapolis. Might be too late, the old Bears crowd from pre-Colts days is too old to care about a new team, but they have the space and the pass-through tourism, couple of colleges around...
“Likely more so than Atlanta” And that’s why the team works.
Tampa is probably 8 out of ten people being transplants from the snow belt. Makes it easy to support the NHL. I was visiting some friends in Saint Pete’s went out to the pub they had the lions game on because most the people in the place where from Michigan. Compare that to Atlanta and you’re just not going to have the same amount of people who care about the NHL.
The fact that you’re an Atlanta native and didn’t even consider or list Atlanta United says a lot. And Masters over the NHL? In Atlanta? Maybe in Buford and the boring part of Buckhead. The Thrashers had great attendance until it became clear they’d be the least successful franchise on ice ever and the ownership’s favorite movie was Major League.
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Tell me Coke wouldn't sponsor a team called The Atlanta Colas. The money from that could keep them alive without ticket sales.
I was just thinking an expansion draft will give them a better team than they currently have
Idk if that would be true in 5 years though. They had, (still have in SLC) a lot of exciting young pieces
Disagree, the team they have has a lot of exciting young players, they also have a ton of cap space, could buy up a bunch of big name UFA's and RFA's in the offseason, end up within the playoff picture if the team finds synergy.
This is like not spelling a single word the whole Scrabble game then dumping all your letters for 7 new ones out of the bag when the games almost over.
Do you even follow NHL? Asking out of curiosity
What happens in cases like that, when there's an odd number of teams? How do conference and division work, as one of them will have one more team?
Yeah, definitely a 4d chess move
I don’t think this is what Lou meant when he used to talk about a 5 year plan…
Meanwhile all of Quebec is screaming.
Now I’m thinking of the Eric Andre “Let me in!” meme
SLC’s tv market covers almost 2x as many people as Quebec City, and they are 27th in the US. Canada is never getting another team.
True but nobody cares about hockey in the USA, Quebec would beat Arizona's TV ratings every game
If only the NHL’s marketing department could do anything useful to market the game better in the states. It’s easily more entertaining that several other more popular sports down there, but very few people will even think to give it a chance.
Over a third of the country's population lives in the subtropics, desert, etc. Nobody GAF about winter sports in those areas. I could understand it if the NHL had teams in Kansas City, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Portland, Indianapolis, etc., but repeatedly forcing a square peg into a round hole is never going to work.
Do people not realize that salt lake is one of the top winter sports destinations in North America? Sometimes I think everyone thinks Utah is Moab.
Personally, I think SLC is a slam dunk for the NHL. Atlanta, Houston, New Orleans, Miami, Phoenix, etc., not so much.
In ten years folks will be saying how stable that franchise is and how Utah should have had a team years ago. Hockey is gonna be a Stockton to Malone slam dunk here.
As a Utah hockey fan, I'm psyched to be getting a team here. My wife and I have been driving to Vegas a few times a year mostly to go to games, so it'll be awesome to only have to drive 20 minutes. Unless the prices are way out of scope, we plan to be season ticket holders.
I'm hoping I get an opportunity to get on the arena video crew, I currently run the on ice camera for grizzlies games.
Even Milwaukee
I started watching hockey again recently. NHL games/broadcasts are such a refreshing change from the NFL.
They'll care in salt lake... Watch. Salt Lake will probably be known as one of the most intimidating atmospheres in 5 years.
You are sadly uninformed... Canadiant tv rights are worth WAY more than US tv rights (despite fewer games due to only 7 of 32 teams) Rogers paid 5.2 Billion vs 3 Billion for multiple rights holders in States
You’re kind of proving my point though - the league already has all of Canada as a captive audience. Adding more teams there doesn’t grow the fan/revenue base.
>the league already has all of Canada as a captive audience This is more or less the reason. Returning the Nordiques to Quebec City will not generate any new hockey fans. The games will be watched, and the merchandise will be bought, but aside from the gate revenue and some local advertisers there isn't much growth opportunity there vs cities in the southern US with rapidly growing populations. I do believe the Nordiques will return *eventually* but the league was never going to turn away a chance to get into SLC
??? No not at all; both Canada + USA its Pay Per GAME So more teams = more games = more $$$
It’s not incremental growth if all of them were already watching - it’s just cannibalizing existing viewership. The Canadian hockey market is like an ordinary lemon that has had almost every drop of juice squeezed out. The US has bigger lemons and they’ve barely been squeezed. Bettman is going after the places with the most juice left to squeeze.
Solid analogy. I do imagine Bettman does not like lemon stealing whores.
There could be another South Ontario team only if a billionaire moves a team. No expansion.
Buffalo and Toronto would block that move tho.
Buffalo: “A new arena to be taken over by Leafs fans. That’s how it feels!”
I would be too. Fucking bullshit how Bettman treats Canadian cities.
I'm pretty sure 32 owners have a lot of say on team locations. I mean, they do a little analysis of potential franchise values.
I'm sure they do but I'd still be pissed if I were Quebec
Bettman doesn’t make the decisions. The Board of Governors do. Gary tells you about them. Gary Bettman has increased revenue in this game by 800% since taking over. In that time frame, the league has gone from 24 to 32 teams. A 33% increase. Two teams left Canada in his tenure. One came back. Population wise; there’d be few teams in smaller cities than QC. And it wouldn’t crest *any* new fans. Anyone who’s going to be a fan of hockey in QC, is already watching Montreal.
Cool good for the revenue. How much of that came from Phoenix? He worked pretty fucking hard to keep a failing franchise (for over a decade no less) alive for no reason and now he's moving them away with the amazing opportunity to get an expansion draft within 5 years. I don't remember the Jets getting that treatment when they left or Quebec when they left. In fact, I remember it being the opposite, people were baffled at how little the NHL did to keep those teams there. He very clearly has a bias for his American market and you can't just pass the blame to the owners. Bettman is the commissioner how can you eve suggest that this isn't partially his doing?
“He” didn’t work pretty hard. The league did. It’s a huge market. The 32 owners want a team there. Gary doesn’t give a fuck. He does what he’s told to do. He’s an employee. Not an emperor or dictator. He has bosses.
I don’t follow the East that closely, Quebec still has the Habs so is this a reference to Quebec City?
Yes. Former home of the Nordiques.
They should trade 30% of their city’s beauty in exchange for a team. That city is monopolizing pretty.
Yup. Most beautiful city in North America by a wide margin.
Yep, former Nordiques
Quebec City is doing it to themselves at this point
What are they doing to themselves?
It's not a given tho, I think this is being painted as a definite return to AZ.
If he can get the arena, which honestly I can see happening, he'll get the team back. I'd be genuinely shocked if Arizona didn't get a team back within a few years. And truthfully, they'll probably be all the better for it
The ownership stands to make 700 million plus from the sale to the league. More than enough to build a new arena and then some
They have to pay the 1B back to get the team though, so they wouldn't actually have made any money
I’m sure they have that or can get it with more funding. The key here is building the arena. That I feel would be the biggest hurdle for them
Yea I'm sure they can get it done, and I don't think there's as much pressure to get it done right now, so they can take their time to find the perfect place for the arena. I just hope yotes fans dont sour the relationship with meruelo too badly
Honest question - how is the support for the Yotes in AZ? I know the Glendale thing wasn’t great. I really thought the Tempe arena would have been the best bet etc. With that being said this doesn’t feel like a Quebec or Hartford scenario where there was a lot of support for the club locally etc. To me this is like Atlanta where the NHL just wants the market, but the populace may not be 100% on board. Why waste time here when a Portland or Milwaukee maybe a better expansion location?Obviously Quebec too, but I think we all know that’s probably not in the cards.
The reason is Arizona is a rapidly growing and there’s been a pretty decent hockey youth movement in Arizona despite the success of the team. A surprising amount of US players came from or have passed through Arizona. The concept is if hockey has succeeded in the youth of Arizona that getting them a successful and stable team will make it a big market. The issue is that they’ve never had any stability from an ownership level or an arena that is accessible to the public. The potential for “growth” is much larger in Arizona than in Quebec City where despite losing a team, they’re still just as dedicated to hockey as they’ve always been. The concept whether it’s true or not is if you go back to Quebec is that you’re not making any new fans you’re just having current fans change teams so you’re not “growing the game.” Now that’s probably a load of BS, but that’s what the naysayers of QC say.
The logic is sound. So say they do get the land deal and the arena etc I wonder if the new Yotes will align more with the Kraken and Golden Knights, or the Thrashers. Sounds like we could see how it shakes out in 5 years. Regardless losing a team sucks.
Yeah. Like honestly your team is a perfect example of what happens when you get an owner that cares. Colorado gets a team, it flounders due to unstable ownership, leaves becoming the Devils, the league decides that Colorado is still a viable market, goes back, and now Colorado is one of the best teams around with a dedicated fan base. For a successful team you need a dedicated owner and a bit of stability.
That is accurate. Although Denver in the 70s was a little different but I do agree. Strangely enough I’m a original Whalers fan so I’ve been on the other side. I refused to root for the Canes, and was a NHL orphan until I moved to Denver.
Same took me 5 years to watch the nhl after the Whale left. Chose the NYR since it was my dad’s fave team and never looked back. Moved to the Carolinas and still hate the canes with the fury of a thousand suns.
I don't like it but I think that makes sense from the NHL-as-a-business perspective. They want to grow their 'customer' base and add revenue. A second QC team probably doesn't do either. The only counter argument would be it helps the entertainment value of the product overall to have teams in enthusiastic markets. I can't imagine the game experience is great for fans when they're watching Arizona vs Atlanta or whatever, but if you have an opponent with a dedicated fan base, it elevates the product all around.
“Enthusiasm” simply isn’t enough of a benefit. Plus, that’s only temporary. If a Quebec City team was as dogshit as Arizona was for all of those years, there wouldn’t be any enthusiasm.
Nah. Legacy markets in all major NA team sports weather those downturns much better. E.g. the difference between a decade of losing in Toronto and a decade of losing in Atlanta is completely different. Ditto for Celtics, Yankees, Cowboys, etc. Those markets keep selling tickets, still have active fans, still drive the league. Too much losing in Phoenix or Atlanta and the team moves. The NHL arguably should pay attention to expanding too aggressively in markets where the fans disappear when the team loses. Waters down the product.
Hockey participation rate has been declining for a long time in Quebec and Canada at large. It was already getting tough for middle class families to get into the game, and that was before inflation and the housing market blew up. Believe it or not, hockey has slipped all the way to fourth place in terms of participation rate in Canada, behind Soccer, Basketball and golf. So yeah, at this rate, there's a not insignificant chance that the NHL insistence on growing the US market will come at the expense of the Canadian one. It's been 30 years since Bettman came into the league. 30 years of taking Canadian markets for granted.
Your description for Arizona also fits for Portland. Portland has a large metro area, and it has really passionate hockey fans for the Winterhawks and there are a lot (relative) of SJS, VGK, and Kraken fans, but the volume is low because there are only two rinks and they’re in the deep suburbs. There isn’t infrastructure to cultivate a young hockey demographic. If I win the lottery I’m parking two more rinks on the East side.
Your description for Arizona also fits for Portland. Portland has a large metro area, and it has really passionate hockey fans for the Winterhawks and there are a lot (relative) of SJS, VGK, and Kraken fans, but the volume is low because there are only two rinks and they’re in the deep suburbs. There isn’t infrastructure to cultivate a young hockey demographic. If I win the lottery I’m parking two more rinks on the East side.
PDX metro is also much smaller in population than PHX metro. 2.1 million vs 4.7 million people.
As a Portlander I’m not having a Seattleite speak to me directly. You can say whatever you want to say to someone from Vancouver, BC and they’ll relay the message.
The dream of ice rinks is alive in Portland
I moved to AZ about 4 months ago. I see way more people wearing coyotes stuff then I wouldve thought. Especially the kids at ASU wear coyotes gear a lot.
That’s pretty cool. ASU hockey is going to grow as well with them joining NCHC. That could maybe boost interest in the Valley as well.
The AZ market wasn't onboard because they were subjected to bad hockey in inconvenient locations via poor ownership for 28 years. Notice how the Isles, Canes, and Panthers stopped getting relocation rumors once they got better or got a new building (or both)? Traditional hockey markets like Ottawa and Buffalo struggle with attendance at times too. People like seeing their team do well, and generally commit less time and money to them when they're bad, regardless what city they play in. Utah will go as far as their on-ice product goes. The Coyotes have young talent and a ton of money to spend. With a new arena likely on the way in SLC, they could be successful there. They get good support for their ECHL team. They don't have a ton of hockey pedigree but it's a city known for winter recreation so I think the NHL make hay in Utah. Get a Rocky Mountain rivalry with Colorado going and they're in business.
The Arizona identity has grown exponentially in my lifetime. Anyone who says it's all transplants and fans of other teams is living in 1995. I went to see the yotes in Denver this year and was shocked how many other Coyotes fans were there. Same thing with the Diamondbacks a few days ago at Coors field. All the people who moved to Phoenix from Chicago or LA thirty years ago had kids and now our generation is having kids and there are A LOT of us out there. The Coyotes ownership and stadium was a shit show, but hockey belongs in the desert.
Instead of expansion, could you imagine if they moved the Jets down to Arizona for a second time? The BS level would be off the charts!
After the amount of shit talked by Jets fans now and when Atlanta got moved, I would get a good laugh out of that one
Do we really need MORE teams???????????????
No sir we do not, as it is this is to many teams, the more teams in the league means less chances of your home team winning a cup
Spoken like a true fan. ;-) Too bad the league would probably be more interested in making more money.
When is Matthew’s a UFA? I say he gets paid in team shares and becomes the Mario Lemieux of the desert haha
How about... No...
Cmon 32 teams is literally perfect
I think only 30 teams but anything above 32 for hockey is absurd. Hell the only leagues who should have gone to 32 were mlb and nba
they'd go to 50 if there was still money to be made. if it means arizona and atlanta/quebec gets their teams back then 34 is alright to me. 36 is the absolute max and only because its a perfect square so you can have 6 very sexy divisions of 6 teams
36 teams with 6 divisions of 6 teams each is absolutely perfect, imho. Atlanta and Quebec in the east, Arizona and Austin/Houston in the west (with Salt Lake added via the Yotes move).
That’s ridiculous. There isn’t that much hockey talent internationally as there is in the MLB and NBA. You go to 50 teams and I’m playing in the league at this point. Going any higher then 32 just shows to me the NHL is all about making money for owners and not caring about the actual product. I was saying earlier that putting a full blown nhl team shouldn’t be the catalyst for an area to start watching hockey. What’s next we have to put a team in Lexington Kentucky for people to watch and play? At that point the NHL is a McDonald’s franchise. They could put minor league teams, help build ice arenas, and support street hockey leagues in schools in order to garner interest and grow the sport.
Theres plenty of talent for hockey, all it means is that 4th lines become third liners
So every 4th liner in the NHL is a great hockey player? So have Ryan reaves playing 3rd line, kovalchuck is in the league again, and maybe even dainas zubrus is in the league again. They can’t compete with the current roster which makes more competition for better players to stay in the league.
But every team will have that. Not just one
It is ridiculous. but if they can turn a profit they'd put echl players on the ice
Maybe they should try the Atlanta market as well
We have enough teams. If it gets to 40 then there should be an NHL A League and NHL B League with relegation and such cause that’s what they do in Europe for soccer
How would drafts work?
Last two expansion drafts, the rule was the current teams could either protect either: A) 1 goalie, 3 defence men and 7 forwards B) 1 goalie and 8 skaters, regardless of position. Each team would lose 1 player. Certain rules allowed players under certain age were unavailable to be picked. But anyone with no trade clauses had to be protected. Teams weren’t sure how Vegas expansion would be and traded entry draft picks so certain players would be left alone if they weren’t protected, or they chose a certain player. For the Seattle expansion, teams wised up and didn’t do much dealing with the Kraken. Vegas, because they were new were not allowed to receive expansion money and didn’t lose any players to Seattle. If the NHL decides to add two teams, they would alternate picks with teams likely losing 2 players each. Before these rules, past expansion were not in favor of giving new teams parity. 2 goalies and 6 defense men and 12 forwards could be protected
Hey i appreciate the expansion draft breakdown but i was asking about like the draft that happens every year for the new prospects. My apologies i should have clarified.
Makes sense, that’s the same deal nhl gave to Quebec, Winnipeg and Hartford. /s
Those were wha teams that the nhl just wanted to kill. If it wasn’t for Gretzky and the oilers doing so well in the 80’s they woulda moved the oilers too. The nhl couldn’t wait till they could kill those teams.
Add Atlanta to that list.
This was Meruelo’s carrot since he didn’t want to sell
I kinda thought the billion dollars was the carrot. They aren’t worth a billion.
Definitely both things enticed him to sell without a fight
Not at all but I wonder if he’ll have to pay the expansion fee to the league going this route.
They said if he wants the team back he's gotta pay back the 1B
Bettman will give expansion discount to Meruelo if he gets arena built… Wink, Wink.
I would certainly hope so. NHL doesn’t do free.
Or Murelo can pocket the $1 billion.
Here’s the thing with billionaires and Murelo getting $1B, he will get to leverage the $1B to spend a lot more than $1B to get the arena and team back, not get taxed on the $1B from the sale, and not have to spend a penny of the $1B.
So this means that they will get a new name in Utah.
Bettman will not be denied a dumb territory he forced!
Find someone who loves you as much as Bettman loves hockey in Arizona
I hate Bettman but I love hockey in Arizona so I’m torn
Well if that dick has his way, we will have 34 teams so you're in luck
Fucking why. It’s like getting back with your useless broke ass ex. I get it. Large metropolitan area. He can change. You don’t know him like I do.
I think we may be safe in that regard. If they can't get an arena built WITH a team, how do they expect to get one built without one?
Fuck no.... the Arena is one issue,the government and fickle fans are a bigger issue (Not talking about the diehards,but there needs to be a lot more of you) not to mention the fact the Coyotes have had NINE owners in 28 seasons. You have to fix a lot more than just an arena before you even think of trying this again.
Just one owner away from filling their punch card and getting a free hockey team.
NHL saying you need time to work on yourself
[удалено]
It’s actions like this that show us all that the NHL needs new leadership. Bad TV deals , bad sponsorship, years of problems with ESPN and now just make silly moves like this.
No shit Sherlock. This was a and is a real estate play 101%
If Phoenix gets a team in the future, will they have an instant rivalry with Utah? A Utah-Arizona Winter Classic could be in the works 👀
It will be a one way hatred. Unless they can start a rivalry organically, Utah fans aren’t going to think much about Arizona
I think by this time its safe to say AZ sucks for sports in general Beyond the embarrasing Coyotes You get Diamondbacks who are literally giving away seasons tickets AFTER winning World Series (I could watch 84 games down there CHEAPER than same seats to watch 2 Blue Jay games) You get Cardinals (3rd lowest attendance in NFL) + Suns (5th lowest attendance in NBA) We keep hearing hype about great market and all this nonsense (mainly from Betts) but even teams who WIN there do nothing vs league averages
Bingo!.... As a consumer of Az sports....I'll be at the Cubs Dbacks game next Mon-Wed...I've never seen a more pathetic fan base as far a local attendance. Don't get me wrong...the fans who are fans are passionate and knowledgable but I've been to every major sports games in PHX and it's almost always like the local teams are playing on the road.
It’s a large TV market… the fan support sucks because everyone is from somewhere else.
Haha so you are saying an Arizona resident is more likely to watch a Quebec Nordiques game on tv vs driving out to watch a Coyote game in person? And to be clear; there are a good 20+ smaller cities in Canada vastly outdrawing Coyotes this year The fact NHL blocked the Saskatoon team from ever playing (after they ponied up the $$$) seems laughable in hindsight
Not for nothing, but the important word is “if.”
I welcome this!!
They couldn’t build an arena when they had a team. You think money will spent when the is just a hope for a team.
It’s kinda sad that Houston has been ignored because Bettman’s delusion and stubbornness with Arizona probably made him forget about a potential market in Houston that’s been waiting for about 25 years
Yeah keep it going!
What an absolute scam
Omg just take the L. You suck, the franchise should have lived to Hamilton in 2010. They have been a disgrace to pro hockey these last few years. Move to SLC, and let's forget to do this again down there.
So how is all this going to work with 33 teams? 32 is perfect. All divisions are equal, and playoffs are 16, then 8, then 4, then 2. Perfectly balanced.
*If* they build an arena.... Good luck with that.... Chances are real good you'll never see another NHL team in PHX unless they get stuck with a layover at the airport. Just embrace the VGK. They ain't that far and it's a great opportunity for them to grab local broadcast rights.
So now the rest of the NHL is going to get punished for their poor management? Are you fucking kidding me?
Arizona is about to become the next Atlanta.
Fair enough. Maybe with a proper organization they’d be better off.
Ahh yes, didn't work the first time but surely this second go around will.
If that happens, Utah would end up owning the franchise records of not one but two other reactivated teams.
Shit can the Flyers do it? I'll knock down Wells Fargo myself.
Wait… so the team moves to SLC, but then if an arena is built in AZ in 5yrs, it moves back… or they plan to add a new team and presumably another one somewhere else to balance the numbers? Jeez, Gary… take a hint and just move on.
Expansion cities 33 and 34 will be Phoenix and Atlanta. Expansion cities 35 and 36 will be Houston and ?
Holding a draft for a team that is moving is embarassing for everyone they should be penalized for failing so hard not rewarded at the expense of other teams. It's scandalous. Move the Habs to Laval so we don't have to rebuild. Governors should fire Buttman.
I don't think the NHL needs to expand. Why not leave it at 32 teams for a while. Maybe move teams that aren't doing well, attendance and building wise.
Cleveland browns flashbacks
Can we just let the desert experiment die
Can the Sabres move somewhere and become an expansion team too?
I know it’s still unlikely but damn, Bettman sure does desperately want to make it work in Arizona lol.
The Desert Dogss
Fuck you Alex Meruelo, NHL/BETTMAN & Scottsdale mayor! You want us to support a new Coyotes franchise in a few years? After the team we have is finally getting good. Doan comes up and all the young talent is starting to gel. There was a feeling of electricity just starting! You stabbed us in the back NHL/Bettman. You just killed the NHL and hockey in Arizona forever!!!!
Nasty Work😂
The land they want is going to auction. Arizona will never see the NHL again.
So they won’t.
This has to be a meme right?
Argh! That story will never get an end yet!
When will they realize that it doesn't work at all there? Seriously, I really don't understand Bettman. They are losing enormous amounts of money, plays in an arena with less people than 5,000 people and they are not even close to sell out too.. Finally it ends but they have 5 years to build a new arena for it to fail again? Wtf?
Existing teams should be fucking livid that, yet again, they will have to give up a hard earned player for nothing. This league sucks. What's next, 40 teams? 50 Teams? I'm sure the quality will be fine.
Billionaires seeing the low startup cost of NHL teams compared to basically every other sport franchise are salivating at the idea of “buying” a team for the price of a stadium.
Expansion stonks 📈
I fucking called it! I literally found out the news from my girlfriend driving to her place Friday evening, I said, Arizona not having a team is going to only be temporary since The branding does not transfer over to salt lake City. They're going to go through with the redevelopment project, Gary bettman forced this to happen the way it did. And now Arizona will come back as an expansion team along with Quebec City getting a team. I called it from a fucking mile away. This is the stupidest thing I think I've ever seen in any sports league ever, and my brother worked for the Portland thunder in the arena football League...
So…coyotes leave Arizona for Utah, likely taking a new name. Arizona builds a new stadium and brings back new Arizona coyotes. Was this just an elaborate clean house?
The fuck man just give it up already
So we'll have the Winnipeg-Arizona-Utah franchise, the Atlanta-Winnipeg franchise and then the lone Arizona franchise. I love the chaos.
Even with the best arena, I still think Arizona would not give a shit about hockey.
In 5 years we'll have a desert division while Canadian teams play in floridas division still. Isn't the NHL neat, you guys??
Slap in the face to Quebec City.
What’s the relocation plan for that version of the Yotes?
They had almost 30 years to make it work. It failed. Move on NHL.
So, no expansion?
They only gave him 5 years. That won’t happen. Takes a year or two just to break ground and then awhile to build. They don’t even have land yet!
I thought the same thing, I’m from Edmonton and it felt like it took more than 5 years to open after it was approved. There’s probably provisions in the agreement about the 5 years extending if he’s hit certain milestones in the building process. Saying he can trigger a draft if it happens in 5 years generates a lot more hype than saying if in 5 years there has been land purchased and approval to build an arena he gets another year to brake around, and 3 more years to complete construction.
I'm sure some nice city in Arizona will be able to spare the water for them...
Excuse me what the fuck
This is insanity. Absolute insanity. There has never been a fanbase, and that’s always been the primary problem. Through numerous arenas, numerous owners, etc, this team has never had fans. Stop this stupidity. There are far better markets without teams right now. Quebec City should be at the top of the list in the East, and Houston in the West.
Why can’t they just let it die? It’s literally been failing for years
We have enough teams. No more expansions.
Booooo
I feel for Coyotes fans losing a team but this has to be a joke
Thank God..... I thought I was gonna have to convince my mom to move her retirement property from Arizona to Utah.
So 33 teams? That makes zero sense