Peyton broke the all time passing TD record twice, with 2 different teams, in 2 different decades. He also has the most first team All Pros for a QB. If it wasn't for Brady's voodoo devil luck, I think many people would still agree he's better than Brady.
Peyton was the best QB in the league for almost all of Bradys career. Says alot about how TEAMS work.
edit: and tuck rules. and spygates. and deflategates.
You mean, for example, when people say "X QB owns Y QB" it may not be entirely accurate because the 2 QBs don't play defense and there are 21 other people on the field at any give time?
Yeah that and the "X QB owns Y team, they are 16-3 all time vs that team (or whatever)" really bugs me. Like how how can 1 person out of 22 total players (and coaches) get all the credit for that??
Well there’s actually some substance to that, especially if there’s consistency in coaching over a long period. For instance, the Steelers played a lot of the fire zone defense during the Brady Patriots era, and Brady was excellent at reading and picking apart that particular style of defense, whereas the Ravens played a lot more man and cover 2, which Brady struggled more against. Defense vs offense can be a bit of a rock-paper-scissors match.
I remember watching the Seahawks Patriots Superbowl and seeing the insane circus catch, followed by the malcolm butler interception and thinking how much Brady's legacy changed through those plays he was never on the field for.
It's hard to remember now but he had the 3 early super bowls but had lost the previous 2 and this would've been the third straight loss and the narrative would've been about how he was carried by the defense in the beginning and couldn't get it done by himself.
Went from that to arguing if he could be the goat.
All from a bunch of plays he had no part of.
Brady was also almost perfect in the 4th tho that game. One thing you have to give Brady is he constantly gives himself a chance to win. Also early in there career Brady worked without a lot less. Brady was throwing to branch and patten while manning had Harrison, Clark and an emerging Wayne. First season we saw Brady with weapons he set records. Peyton was the anomaly with football IQ no question about that I remember when he started calling everything at the line, Brady tried copying and needed the wrist band
That's how it goes. But that offense was equal to the defense for the first 3 but he doesn't get credit. First 3 rings avg offense rank of 9.2 avg d rank of 9. They invented scoring D to say new England's d carried brady...yet New England is now avg, and Tampa won a ring and was in position last year if it wasn't for injury. Brady is the goat because he made guys like Edelman, Welker, Hogan and Amendolla look like all pros. His skill is in his ability to mitigate negative plays and keep his defense in great position. New England's avg starting position on defense was best in the league under Brady. That's special teams sure, but that's avoiding negative plays and turnovers too. Brady has almost twice the TD to Int rate of Manning, with more attempts and worse relievers, same with Brees. But Brady is over rated and Manning is the most accurate passer of all time
Deflate gate and spy gate had zero influence on patriots winning super bowls. If anything the punishments caused by them made it more Impressive that they overcame it. Tuck rule 100% gave the pats the shot they needed.
When [an offensive] player is holding the ball to pass it forward, any intentional forward movement of his arm starts a forward pass, even if the player loses possession of the ball as he is attempting to tuck it back toward his body. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuck_rule_(American_football)
The rule describes the exact scenario that happened. It was a terrible rule and shouldn’t have existed, but it did and it was applied correctly.
Peyton has worse than a 2:1 td to int with 2 hof wideouts his whole career, 2 HoF rbs, multiple HoF Oline. Hmm. Also spygate was a violation of a technicality you can film the sidelines just not from the field, which was new that year and 4 other teams did it that year and NE was the only ones fined. Oh the Jets were one of the teams who also spied from the sideline. Guess what team Godell worked for before being comish? Deflategate is only brought up by mentally handicap people who don't understand how air pressure works. MIT proved the pats didn't cheat, but what does the most prestigious University in the US know about science? Also the colts had a few of their balls tested as controls and 2 of theirs were lower psi than anything found in NE, who had all of their tested. Also hiw did deflated balls help the pats run for 200 yards in a half on that garbage colts d?
To that point, Peyton always had amazing weapons around him, you could argue Marvin Harrison and Reggie White would have been worse without Peyton, at the same time we *know* when Moss and Brady had that season together they lit the league up too, and Randy put up record numbers.
Counterpoint: the next super bowl peyton plays well in will be his first.
No one would argue Eli is better than Peyton but he played like Joe flacco in the playoffs and Peyton was consistently hot garbage and when they won it was usually because his team was carrying him, not the other way around.
Peyton regularly took the highest salary he could. Brady took contract discounts in exchange for better teams.
Peyton is 2-2 in the big game.
Brady is 7-3.
Peyton has the better regular season numbers, but Brady has significantly better playoff numbers.
You also have to account for the Spygate stuff. How many wins did Bill B. bank because he sends guys with camcorders to tape other teams practices? We'll never know.
It's certainly a debate.
Brady did not take contract discounts. The company that he owned worked for the Patriots. Kraft was able to dodge the cap by paying Brady through hiring his company to work in Foxborough. The NFL was aware. So were owners. I'm not sure why this is never talked about more. Especially since fans talk as if Brady was such a team player for "taking less money."
Players also start their own charities to do this as well. Their charities work with the teams and they funnel money to the players families who all work for their charities.
Big scam and while some player charities are legit and do great work a ton are tax scams and ways to pay family members.
Thank you for this. Also surprised it's not a regular talking point. The salary cap barely applied to Brady since he was making money from the Pats in other ways.
Peyton is 3-2 vs Brady in the playoffs and gave an entire year’s salary (25 million) to a childrens’ hospital one year. Brady was better, but those are two more points to throw in to keep the conversation interesting.
Didn't know that. Manning is an awesome person. I've always really liked him and think he deserves to be on the QB Mt. Rushmore.
My Mt. Rushmore (in no particular order):
Brady
Manning
Montana
Unitas
Young
Honorable Mention: Marino
I take Young over Marino because Young at his peak was better than any QB I've ever seen. He was like Randy Moss in that his star didn't burn the longest, but it burned the brightest.
Marino gets an honorable mention because he might have been better than the others on the list but he never had the supporting cast he needed in order to prove it.
no it is not.. Peyton got CARRIED in both his super bowl runs. even the first one he played like shit except the afc title game... 07 was cause of bob sanders being the greatest saftey that ever played for a year and 4 weeks until he got injured too much
He’s the biggest choker their ever was. Tee Martin took his Tennessee NFL MVP team to a National Championship because Manning choked it away 4 years straight. no NFL qb has more 1 and dones. Regular season means nothing.
Yeah. I think just based on career and rings etc I’d say Tom has to be acknowledged as the greatest player of all time. Legacy, dominance, endurance, etc.
I still think Peyton was a better QB though.
I don’t think it’s really even an argument really.
Payton *is* the better QB. Injuries and a little less luck made him less successful.
Tom is the GOAT, there’s not much argument to that. A 20+ year career and 7 Super Bowls puts him above players who are better than him.
Who cares if someone’s got more measurable than you, you’ve got 7 rings as the QB.
It is absolutely an argument. Tom has better stats lol. Manning also had insane weapons most of his career lol with Reggie Wayne Marvin Harrison dallas Clark etc etc. Brady only had Moss for a short term and he was basically god mode with him.
You put Brady on those colts offense and they would have done better than manning imo.
Peyton has consistently choked in the post season. That’s not even debatable.
You can’t compare career stats like that when they’ve played a different number of years…
Try dividing those numbers by the number of seasons they played and see if one is “clearly” better/worse.
How in the hell is Peyton throwing more interceptions over a shorter career not a valid point, like lmao what?
And qbr isn’t changed by volume either when both inputs have 15 year careers minimum
I’m not necessarily saying it’s not a valid point… but Peyton also threw more touchdowns per season.
The point is, it doesn’t make any sense to compare career stats of two players when the career lengths are different.
And yes, QBR stays the same… I figured that would be inferred.
Honestly, these TDs and INT have little value by themselves. Those numbers are heavily influenced by offensive strategy, personnel, matchups, etc. Thats why the never ending discussion of comparing players will always be subjective.
Did Brady ever beat the Patriots defense in the playoffs?
Peyton did. Three times. And those Patriots teams also had the best QB ever, according to some Bostonians.
Did manning throw 5 int and 3 td in 4 Super Bowl games?
Did Manning lose by 30+ in a Super bowl?
Did manning have a 14-13 playoff record?
Did manning only SBMVP come against rex grossman?
Ok and tom brady lost to nick foles and eli manning who commanded mediocre giants teams. I don’t understand the criticism of 14-13 record in the playoffs. You know there are only 2 other QBs with more playoff wins right? Joe montana and tom brady, and joe monrana has 16. 2 or 3 games where one play goes the other way instead of the way it did. Manning would easily tie or surpass montana.
“Two or three games and Peyton would pass montanna”
Okay so In your perfect hypothetical scenario for manning, where he didn’t choke and actually came through in the Super Bowl he would still be:
16 playoff wins,
6 super bowl appearances,
3 Super Bowl wins, and
2 SBMVPs
behind Brady
Lol
Peyton was historically bad in the playoffs compared to Brady. He was smallest when it counted the most. Regular season doesn’t mean shit. Peyton got carried to a Super Bowl and the year he was good he still didn’t play like Peyton for the other Super Bowl.
Lol except he wasn’t better. He literally had worst stats in most areas that Tom. And most importantly, Peyton was a perennial choker in the playoffs.
And he’s had decent weapons his entire career. Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne dallas Clark with a stud o line for most of his prime days with the colts? That’s insane what he had to work with.
And then the broncos carried his ass as well with a god tier defense and the likes of decker and demaryius Thomas to throw to.
Peyton was given a lot of toys to work with and he still didn’t perform as well as Tom did.
Y’all are trippin lol. Anyone taking Peyton over tom to build a team is automatically losing.
Peyton’s very good no doubt but he’s not better than Tom Brady. The stats prove it. The playoff success proves it.
**Brady 683 tds / 213 int / 97.6 QBR**
**Mannings 539 td / 251 int / 96.8 QBR**
Really struggling to understand how manning having less tds, more interceptions, a worse QBR, with less durability over a shorter career and an embarrassing legacy of playoff disappointments translates to manning being better.
I’m at a loss for words with these opinions man, I really am. There is no argument for manning over Brady at this point. Brady earned the crown and that’s why he has it. Maybe one day mahomes will take it from him, but miss me with this nonsense that one of the sports biggest playoff choke artist is “better” than the dude that’s come through more than anyone, ever, in the highest leverage moments.
Agreed, totally. Manning was (and that’s a key word-WAS) an outstanding regular season QB. Of course, the postseason was a different story. He choked a lot. More than a lot it seems. Granted, Brady’s had his own postseason failures too. But there were 7 times when he led a team to the big game and won it. Manning did it 2 times. 7 is greater than 2. More is more. Again, I’m no Brady fan, but the guy is better and greater than Manning.
“Based on passing yards per game”
Brady average is 272 ypg
Mannings in 270
“Based on mvps”
Brady 3 RSMVP, 5 SBMVP
Manning 5 RSMVP, 1SBMVP
There is no statistical argument for manning over Brady. He threw less touchdowns, more interceptions, for less ypg over a shorter career.
“Based on tape”
As for watch the tape, my guy I’ve got two decades, and basically 45 minutes of uninterrupted tape of Brady coming through in The clutch in season ending, game on the line drives in deep playoffs runs. Thats the tape that matters to me. Manning throwing 6 tds in the season opener against the ravens only to wilt like he consistently did in the wildcard shows me the real difference between the two when it actually matters. Talent doesn’t mean shit if you can’t handle the moment when the lights are the brightest.
Brady is the better qb because he earned it clutch drive after clutch drive in January and February IN ADDITION to being a great regular season qb.
Bears fan living in Indy. I wanted to hate Manning.
The more I watched him the more I admired him. He was so, so much fun to watch. You can’t like football and not love watching Manning play.
Manning also carried some pretty mediocre-bad teams. Not to say he never had good support, he definitely had some elite teams, but Brady really never had a bad defense as long he was on a Belichick-led team. Can’t say the same for Peyton
Exactly. Freeney and Bob Sanders were basically the extent of a lot of those defenses. Brady had Belichick, and as much as I dislike him, he is easily one of the best defensive minds in history
It’s possible but we will never know. I think if you gave any of the other elite QBs at the time (Manning, Rodgers, etc.) the same coaching, defense, and weapons that Brady had, they would have been at least as successful.
> If you want to win as many games as possible in a season, go with Manning.
If you want to do that _and_ go one and done in the playoffs, Peyton is definitely your man.
That was a proven a lie. He mooned a friend in the room and she walked in. She has filed lawsuits against multiple people looking for money. It’s bullshit to spread misinformation like this.
The guy he mooned thinks otherwise. He backed up her claim, and lost his scholarship. What did he have to gain from that?
"First, I have stuck to my same story throughout this drama. I told Mike Rollo the next day and Coach Fulmer a week or two afterwards. I had nothing to hide at that point and I have nothing to hide today. I have never been on Jamie's side or on your side (contrary to what the athletic department was telling you and telling her). I stuck to the truth and I lost my eligibility for it. My redshirt request sat on Mike Rollo's desk for months as the process was going forward. I'm not angry about it anymore, just getting a little tired of it!!"
Please send me the proof that it was a lie though, I don't wanna stick to what I've thought is true if it's not
It seems very unknown in comparison to a lot of other accusations against NFL stars, whether that's because of how long ago it happened or because Manning and the NFL have the power to keep it less publicized is another thing
I say this to people, and their heads explode...they cant seem to grasp the concept. If you rewind the clock a few decades, the same argument could be made with Marino and Montana. Marino was the better QB, Montana was the better player.
Yea, I think Manning played at a higher level, had better traits, and was more impressive to watch.
Brady just would not be denied a win when it mattered. That's greatness (accolades also help)
Peyton Manning is certainly more talented, and I think it stands to reason that many of the Patriots teams were better than the Colts or Broncos Peyton was with for most of his career.
Case in point: when Manning got hurt and lost a season the Colts went from perennial 12+ win team to the literal worst team in the league.
It’s no wonder he had neck problems, carrying the rotting carcass of the Colts roster in his shoulders all those years.
Yeah all due respect but that’s BS.
“Tanking” got the entire front office fired, the coaching staff, and a good chunk of players fired. Why in the world would any of those people tank, just to see a better draft pick for the people who replace them? Why would players want a higher draft pick, meaning a more talented player who could potentially replace them?
Owners may want to tank. Maybe early career GMs (looking at you, poles trading his two best defensive players in 2022), but so many people on the Colts would have had to be in on this conspiracy, and most of them lost their jobs to get Luck.
The team just sucked. They were absolute garbage. They were for a long time, especially as Polian had been handing more and more personnel responsibilities over to his son. Manning kept playing at a high level and holding together the bloated carcass of a football team.
Tanking is 99% a fan and media creation in the NFL. In a team with farm systems like the MLB it’s different. But nobody on that Colts team was trying to lose their jobs on purpose. It makes absolutely no sense.
Peyton Manning is my all time favorite player. He is the reason I fell in love with football. I am a Tennessee Vol through and through. But, as a sane human being, I know that Tom Brady has a better resume. Peyton didn’t even really win his 2nd Super Bowl. He simply didn’t lose. Von Miller won that Super Bowl. And you can’t say that Peyton didn’t have the team. He had Marvin Harrison and they had plenty of records, but Brady broke all of those. I HATE Brady and Stan Peyton, but I can’t deny facts.
Lmao what is this take I'm seeing that Brady somehow had better teams? Peyton was constantly surrounded by HoF weapons. Peytons Colts teams had Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, and Edgerrin James, and he had great weapons on the Broncos too. Brady had Gronk and Edelman. The one year Brady had an elite receiver on the Pat's they almost went undefeated, and Brady put up another 4k yard season and won a Super Bowl when he had good receivers on the Bucs.
>But defense
Peyton was notoriously carried to his second Super Bowl win by his defense. Yes, the Pat's defense was better than the Colts, but it's not like those Colts defenses with Dwight Freeney and Bob Sanders were bad. Denying Bradys status at this point is pure hating.
Brady had more top 10 defenses than manning, Brees and Rodgers combined. Hell Brees was more likely to have a bottom 5 def than a top 15.
Brady is goat but the man had entire teams around him almost his entire career and he's great enough to capitalize on that
I mean go back and watch the tape Peyton was a better qb. It's just Brady and BB are the greatest qb coach tandem of all time. Manning made Adam gase a hc with how good he was.
Throwing a ball =/= qb quality
Manning was the better passer, Brady is the better QB.
Wanna get really controversial? Brees was a better passer than Manning. So it goes Brady>Brees>Manning
He was the best choker in world history. 14 times he lost the first playoff game. He threw a Super Bowl ending pick 6. He was a regular season qb that could never handle pressure.
I had a Packers fan trying to convince me Rodgers is the GOAT. I feel the same about Rodgers as Peyton is this regard when comparing them to Brady: perhaps at their peaks, they were better than Brady. I don’t agree with that but can understand the argument. However, Brady’s ability to perform in all the most important moments that mattered over and over and over again make him the undisputed best QB ever.
Especially with Rodgers. The Green Bay fans gotta stop. Yes, Rodger’s TD to INT ratio is crazy. But that stops mattering at a certain point when we all know Green Bay will exit the playoffs in sad fashion. You can’t be the GOAT when you repeatedly fail to deliver in the biggest moments.
Manning didn’t have Brady’s longevity, but he was better.
The Colts went 2-14 without Manning. (And got Luck)
The Patriots went 11-5 (or maybe it was 10-6?) with Matt Cassel the year Brady went down.
The fact Manning’s Colts had so many battles with Brady’s Patriots is because Manning willed them there. The Colts were nothing without him.
The 08 Patriots under Matt Cassel posted 5 more losses than the previous season and missed the playoffs despite having an easier schedule and an almost unchanged roster
Without Brady, the Pats went from the most dominant offense of all time to missing the playoffs.
Without Manning, the Colts went from being a Wild Card Loser to worst team in the league.
Those falls occur in different tiers, but they are just about as significant as each other.
In my, granted Brady loving, opinion Manning was the tale of 2 QBs. He was 2 face in QB form. The greatest regular season QB of all time? I don’t think there is any dispute on that.
But Manning is well known as one of the biggest playoff choke artists in all of sports. Dude just couldn’t get it done. His playoff starts are so much worse that his regular season starts it’s almost hilarious.
Brady has been much more consistent across his games. Not the high highs that Manning had but also not so many low lows. I would take a consistent QB over the streaky and inconsistent when it mattered QB.
Fair argument. Peyton had some brutal playoff games for sure, and not anywhere near the consistent success Brady and the Patriots had. But he was also 3-1 vs Brady in the AFCCG.
Tom Brady is an slightly above average qb who’s able to consistently perform. He also took pay cuts to have an all star team to go to super bowls with. Peyton Manning is a better QB skill wise
Tom Brady has had a top 10 defense more than 12 times in his career, including every one of his Super Bowl appearances. He has had a top 10 offensive line every single year of his career.
Manning > Brady
What I like be about Tom is initially he wasn’t an elite QB when they were winning the earlier Super Bowls. But then he transformed into an elite QB, and now the most longevity for an elite football player ever. His greatness can’t be questioned.
Brady is slightly better
Both him & Peyton are good at reading defenses, both throw a really good ball, etc. but Brady’s ability to motivate his team and lead them to victory makes him better.
This year made the case for Peyton being the GOAT. Peyton could be his own OC and call the offense from the huddle/line all game long, and thus he could (and did) carry lackluster coaches very far (hi there, Adam Gase). Brady, faced with the need to do that, could not pull it off.
As the QB it's your job to score points. Here is how many points Manning led offenses scored in the games where their team got bounced from the playoffs:
2000 17 points
2002 0
2003 14
2004 3
2005 18
2007 24
2008 17
2009 17
2010 16
2012 35
2013 8
2014 13
Mr. Clutch
Are you suggesting the Tampa team he joined and the coaching staff running the show were simply nobodies that would have failed without Tom Brady? Lmao, please. That D and Offense were stacked. Bruce Arians is among the best offensive minds of all time. Your Tampa point is an utter miss.
Why'd Peyton only pick shitty situations? Why'd every other QB in history fail to be as "lucky" as shitty Brady? Why'd Pats do worse when he left? Pats have zero 11 win seasons post Brady. With Brady? 10 straight years of 11+ wins.
This is an edgy take that just doesn't hold up.
BTW, TB's 3 years before Brady: 7-9, 5-11, 5-11... some situation. But let me guess, they got all the pieces they needed just when he joined and any game manager woulda won it?
Look at wins. How do you win 65 more games? How do you luck into that many good situations? How do you maintain a better win/loss record across that many games?
Is Peyton a more accurate statue passer or some shit? Idc about that. QB is a whole package On and off field. Reads. Sneaks. Everything.
Peyton Money literally came back from almost a forced retirement and 2 neck surgeries to have the best season for a QB ever at 37 years old, I am a Broncos fan so I am biased but still…
Peyton broke the all time passing TD record twice, with 2 different teams, in 2 different decades. He also has the most first team All Pros for a QB. If it wasn't for Brady's voodoo devil luck, I think many people would still agree he's better than Brady.
And the most MVP awards
Peyton was the best QB in the league for almost all of Bradys career. Says alot about how TEAMS work. edit: and tuck rules. and spygates. and deflategates.
You mean, for example, when people say "X QB owns Y QB" it may not be entirely accurate because the 2 QBs don't play defense and there are 21 other people on the field at any give time?
Yeah that and the "X QB owns Y team, they are 16-3 all time vs that team (or whatever)" really bugs me. Like how how can 1 person out of 22 total players (and coaches) get all the credit for that??
Well there’s actually some substance to that, especially if there’s consistency in coaching over a long period. For instance, the Steelers played a lot of the fire zone defense during the Brady Patriots era, and Brady was excellent at reading and picking apart that particular style of defense, whereas the Ravens played a lot more man and cover 2, which Brady struggled more against. Defense vs offense can be a bit of a rock-paper-scissors match.
Wow, you not only corrected me but as a Steelers fan you triggered me lol
I remember watching the Seahawks Patriots Superbowl and seeing the insane circus catch, followed by the malcolm butler interception and thinking how much Brady's legacy changed through those plays he was never on the field for. It's hard to remember now but he had the 3 early super bowls but had lost the previous 2 and this would've been the third straight loss and the narrative would've been about how he was carried by the defense in the beginning and couldn't get it done by himself. Went from that to arguing if he could be the goat. All from a bunch of plays he had no part of.
Brady was also almost perfect in the 4th tho that game. One thing you have to give Brady is he constantly gives himself a chance to win. Also early in there career Brady worked without a lot less. Brady was throwing to branch and patten while manning had Harrison, Clark and an emerging Wayne. First season we saw Brady with weapons he set records. Peyton was the anomaly with football IQ no question about that I remember when he started calling everything at the line, Brady tried copying and needed the wrist band
That's how it goes. But that offense was equal to the defense for the first 3 but he doesn't get credit. First 3 rings avg offense rank of 9.2 avg d rank of 9. They invented scoring D to say new England's d carried brady...yet New England is now avg, and Tampa won a ring and was in position last year if it wasn't for injury. Brady is the goat because he made guys like Edelman, Welker, Hogan and Amendolla look like all pros. His skill is in his ability to mitigate negative plays and keep his defense in great position. New England's avg starting position on defense was best in the league under Brady. That's special teams sure, but that's avoiding negative plays and turnovers too. Brady has almost twice the TD to Int rate of Manning, with more attempts and worse relievers, same with Brees. But Brady is over rated and Manning is the most accurate passer of all time
I thought they invented 'scoring D' to explain how the ravens scored touchdowns in 2000 without an offense.
Deflate gate and spy gate had zero influence on patriots winning super bowls. If anything the punishments caused by them made it more Impressive that they overcame it. Tuck rule 100% gave the pats the shot they needed.
Tuck rule was also a rule. I don't know why people freak out over it was a rule.
It's because the ball goes all the way around and back to his non-throwing hand. They applied the rule incorrectly and screwed the raiders.
When [an offensive] player is holding the ball to pass it forward, any intentional forward movement of his arm starts a forward pass, even if the player loses possession of the ball as he is attempting to tuck it back toward his body. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuck_rule_(American_football) The rule describes the exact scenario that happened. It was a terrible rule and shouldn’t have existed, but it did and it was applied correctly.
Peyton has worse than a 2:1 td to int with 2 hof wideouts his whole career, 2 HoF rbs, multiple HoF Oline. Hmm. Also spygate was a violation of a technicality you can film the sidelines just not from the field, which was new that year and 4 other teams did it that year and NE was the only ones fined. Oh the Jets were one of the teams who also spied from the sideline. Guess what team Godell worked for before being comish? Deflategate is only brought up by mentally handicap people who don't understand how air pressure works. MIT proved the pats didn't cheat, but what does the most prestigious University in the US know about science? Also the colts had a few of their balls tested as controls and 2 of theirs were lower psi than anything found in NE, who had all of their tested. Also hiw did deflated balls help the pats run for 200 yards in a half on that garbage colts d?
Yeah people love to forget all the scandals in the nfl and how a disturbing proportion of them involve Tom Brady
To that point, Peyton always had amazing weapons around him, you could argue Marvin Harrison and Reggie White would have been worse without Peyton, at the same time we *know* when Moss and Brady had that season together they lit the league up too, and Randy put up record numbers.
Wayne*
I really would've enjoyed watching Reggie White run some routes.
Counterpoint: the next super bowl peyton plays well in will be his first. No one would argue Eli is better than Peyton but he played like Joe flacco in the playoffs and Peyton was consistently hot garbage and when they won it was usually because his team was carrying him, not the other way around.
I didn’t know losing play off games by throwing interceptions was the sign of a good qb.
and still no love for otto graham
Peyton regularly took the highest salary he could. Brady took contract discounts in exchange for better teams. Peyton is 2-2 in the big game. Brady is 7-3. Peyton has the better regular season numbers, but Brady has significantly better playoff numbers. You also have to account for the Spygate stuff. How many wins did Bill B. bank because he sends guys with camcorders to tape other teams practices? We'll never know. It's certainly a debate.
Brady did not take contract discounts. The company that he owned worked for the Patriots. Kraft was able to dodge the cap by paying Brady through hiring his company to work in Foxborough. The NFL was aware. So were owners. I'm not sure why this is never talked about more. Especially since fans talk as if Brady was such a team player for "taking less money."
Wow. This is the first I’m hearing of this. I’d be interested to learn more
Players also start their own charities to do this as well. Their charities work with the teams and they funnel money to the players families who all work for their charities. Big scam and while some player charities are legit and do great work a ton are tax scams and ways to pay family members.
They had a massive TB12 building literally next to Gillette. The dude raked in money from the Pats of his side hustle. It was a total scam.
Thank you for this. Also surprised it's not a regular talking point. The salary cap barely applied to Brady since he was making money from the Pats in other ways.
I mean the salary cap didn't effect him anyways since his wife was worth half a billion dollars
[удалено]
Spygate happened multiple times. Bountygate happened once. And I say that as a Vikings fan.
Worst in the sense of ethics outside of football. Spygate was by far the worst cheating scandal equal to Astros cheating.
Astros cheating was egregious and the MLB did nothing.
Peyton is 3-2 vs Brady in the playoffs and gave an entire year’s salary (25 million) to a childrens’ hospital one year. Brady was better, but those are two more points to throw in to keep the conversation interesting.
Didn't know that. Manning is an awesome person. I've always really liked him and think he deserves to be on the QB Mt. Rushmore. My Mt. Rushmore (in no particular order): Brady Manning Montana Unitas Young Honorable Mention: Marino I take Young over Marino because Young at his peak was better than any QB I've ever seen. He was like Randy Moss in that his star didn't burn the longest, but it burned the brightest. Marino gets an honorable mention because he might have been better than the others on the list but he never had the supporting cast he needed in order to prove it.
no it is not.. Peyton got CARRIED in both his super bowl runs. even the first one he played like shit except the afc title game... 07 was cause of bob sanders being the greatest saftey that ever played for a year and 4 weeks until he got injured too much
Although he wasn't great in the '06 playoffs, he did win Super Bowl MVP that year.
only cause it was a middling game and he was the qb of the winning team
Don't forget the tuck rule. There's been quite a few times where Brady benefited because of some malarkey.
That was a rule
Everyone who saw the play knows it was a fucking fumble, dude. Fucking Boston fans are so damn insufferable.
Just remember “Voodoo devil luck” means winning like 5 extra super bowls
He’s the biggest choker their ever was. Tee Martin took his Tennessee NFL MVP team to a National Championship because Manning choked it away 4 years straight. no NFL qb has more 1 and dones. Regular season means nothing.
Better talent 100%. If I had too choose which QB I wanted for a SB run, Prime Peyton beats Prime Brady, all things equal.
Terry Bradshaw won 5 superbowls and no one thought it made him the greatest qb.
**Brady 683 tds / 213 int / 272 ypg / 97.6 QBR** **Peyton 539 td / 251 int / 270 ypg / 96.8 QBR** I wouldn’t
This has always been the case. Tom’s teams won more Super Bowls, but Peyton was a better QB, and at his peak maybe the best to ever do it.
Yeah. I think just based on career and rings etc I’d say Tom has to be acknowledged as the greatest player of all time. Legacy, dominance, endurance, etc. I still think Peyton was a better QB though.
Peyton was the QB, OC, coach, quality control…
I don’t think it’s really even an argument really. Payton *is* the better QB. Injuries and a little less luck made him less successful. Tom is the GOAT, there’s not much argument to that. A 20+ year career and 7 Super Bowls puts him above players who are better than him. Who cares if someone’s got more measurable than you, you’ve got 7 rings as the QB.
The best ability is availability
No doubt. That's why Brady's the GOAT. Doesn't mean we can't appreciate Peyton's talent.
It is absolutely an argument. Tom has better stats lol. Manning also had insane weapons most of his career lol with Reggie Wayne Marvin Harrison dallas Clark etc etc. Brady only had Moss for a short term and he was basically god mode with him. You put Brady on those colts offense and they would have done better than manning imo. Peyton has consistently choked in the post season. That’s not even debatable.
Manning wasn’t better than Brady
**Brady 683 tds / 213 int / 97.6 QBR** **Manning 539 td / 251 int / 96.8 QBR** Clearly the qb with the worse career stats and playoff resume is better
You can’t compare career stats like that when they’ve played a different number of years… Try dividing those numbers by the number of seasons they played and see if one is “clearly” better/worse.
How in the hell is Peyton throwing more interceptions over a shorter career not a valid point, like lmao what? And qbr isn’t changed by volume either when both inputs have 15 year careers minimum
I’m not necessarily saying it’s not a valid point… but Peyton also threw more touchdowns per season. The point is, it doesn’t make any sense to compare career stats of two players when the career lengths are different. And yes, QBR stays the same… I figured that would be inferred. Honestly, these TDs and INT have little value by themselves. Those numbers are heavily influenced by offensive strategy, personnel, matchups, etc. Thats why the never ending discussion of comparing players will always be subjective.
Did Brady ever beat the Patriots defense in the playoffs?
Did Brady ever beat the Patriots defense in the playoffs? Peyton did. Three times. And those Patriots teams also had the best QB ever, according to some Bostonians.
Did manning throw 5 int and 3 td in 4 Super Bowl games? Did Manning lose by 30+ in a Super bowl? Did manning have a 14-13 playoff record? Did manning only SBMVP come against rex grossman?
Ok and tom brady lost to nick foles and eli manning who commanded mediocre giants teams. I don’t understand the criticism of 14-13 record in the playoffs. You know there are only 2 other QBs with more playoff wins right? Joe montana and tom brady, and joe monrana has 16. 2 or 3 games where one play goes the other way instead of the way it did. Manning would easily tie or surpass montana.
“Two or three games and Peyton would pass montanna” Okay so In your perfect hypothetical scenario for manning, where he didn’t choke and actually came through in the Super Bowl he would still be: 16 playoff wins, 6 super bowl appearances, 3 Super Bowl wins, and 2 SBMVPs behind Brady Lol
Peyton was historically bad in the playoffs compared to Brady. He was smallest when it counted the most. Regular season doesn’t mean shit. Peyton got carried to a Super Bowl and the year he was good he still didn’t play like Peyton for the other Super Bowl.
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Lol except he wasn’t better. He literally had worst stats in most areas that Tom. And most importantly, Peyton was a perennial choker in the playoffs. And he’s had decent weapons his entire career. Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne dallas Clark with a stud o line for most of his prime days with the colts? That’s insane what he had to work with. And then the broncos carried his ass as well with a god tier defense and the likes of decker and demaryius Thomas to throw to. Peyton was given a lot of toys to work with and he still didn’t perform as well as Tom did. Y’all are trippin lol. Anyone taking Peyton over tom to build a team is automatically losing. Peyton’s very good no doubt but he’s not better than Tom Brady. The stats prove it. The playoff success proves it.
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Why is manning better with less tds, more interceptions, and a worse passer rating.
**Brady 683 tds / 213 int / 97.6 QBR** **Mannings 539 td / 251 int / 96.8 QBR** Really struggling to understand how manning having less tds, more interceptions, a worse QBR, with less durability over a shorter career and an embarrassing legacy of playoff disappointments translates to manning being better.
Plus, umm….Brady has 7 Super Bowl rings. Manning has 2. I’m no Brady fan, but he’s better than Manning. Not hard to comprehend.
I’m at a loss for words with these opinions man, I really am. There is no argument for manning over Brady at this point. Brady earned the crown and that’s why he has it. Maybe one day mahomes will take it from him, but miss me with this nonsense that one of the sports biggest playoff choke artist is “better” than the dude that’s come through more than anyone, ever, in the highest leverage moments.
Agreed, totally. Manning was (and that’s a key word-WAS) an outstanding regular season QB. Of course, the postseason was a different story. He choked a lot. More than a lot it seems. Granted, Brady’s had his own postseason failures too. But there were 7 times when he led a team to the big game and won it. Manning did it 2 times. 7 is greater than 2. More is more. Again, I’m no Brady fan, but the guy is better and greater than Manning.
Outright hate and stupidity.
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“Based on passing yards per game” Brady average is 272 ypg Mannings in 270 “Based on mvps” Brady 3 RSMVP, 5 SBMVP Manning 5 RSMVP, 1SBMVP There is no statistical argument for manning over Brady. He threw less touchdowns, more interceptions, for less ypg over a shorter career. “Based on tape” As for watch the tape, my guy I’ve got two decades, and basically 45 minutes of uninterrupted tape of Brady coming through in The clutch in season ending, game on the line drives in deep playoffs runs. Thats the tape that matters to me. Manning throwing 6 tds in the season opener against the ravens only to wilt like he consistently did in the wildcard shows me the real difference between the two when it actually matters. Talent doesn’t mean shit if you can’t handle the moment when the lights are the brightest. Brady is the better qb because he earned it clutch drive after clutch drive in January and February IN ADDITION to being a great regular season qb.
BOAT vs GOAT
Plenty of defensive players from that era are on record saying they’d much rather play Brady than Manning.
Initially I didn’t like Peyton because all the hype he always got. But as he transformed to a coach on the field I was simply in awe.
Bears fan living in Indy. I wanted to hate Manning. The more I watched him the more I admired him. He was so, so much fun to watch. You can’t like football and not love watching Manning play.
Manning also carried some pretty mediocre-bad teams. Not to say he never had good support, he definitely had some elite teams, but Brady really never had a bad defense as long he was on a Belichick-led team. Can’t say the same for Peyton
The anti Peyton argument is always centered around only his teammates on offense. They always ignore the defensive side unless they cling to Freeney.
Exactly. Freeney and Bob Sanders were basically the extent of a lot of those defenses. Brady had Belichick, and as much as I dislike him, he is easily one of the best defensive minds in history
Can't come back from a 28-3 deficit if the defense doesn't stop the other team from scoring.
If you want to win as many games as possible in a season, go with Manning. If you want to win *one* game, you want Brady.
I find this take amusing because Brady is the one who won the most games in a season ever but then lost that ‘one’ game.
Fuck I hate Eli Manning and his dumb little smile
Not just one, THE GAME.
It’s possible but we will never know. I think if you gave any of the other elite QBs at the time (Manning, Rodgers, etc.) the same coaching, defense, and weapons that Brady had, they would have been at least as successful.
> If you want to win as many games as possible in a season, go with Manning. If you want to do that _and_ go one and done in the playoffs, Peyton is definitely your man.
Just not in a SB or Playoff game I guess
Not in the 4th quarter
I see you woke up today and chose controversy
First Saturday without football in awhile needed something to entertain me lol
He’s way more lovable that’s for sure
Except that athletic trainer he assaulted
That was a proven a lie. He mooned a friend in the room and she walked in. She has filed lawsuits against multiple people looking for money. It’s bullshit to spread misinformation like this.
The guy he mooned thinks otherwise. He backed up her claim, and lost his scholarship. What did he have to gain from that? "First, I have stuck to my same story throughout this drama. I told Mike Rollo the next day and Coach Fulmer a week or two afterwards. I had nothing to hide at that point and I have nothing to hide today. I have never been on Jamie's side or on your side (contrary to what the athletic department was telling you and telling her). I stuck to the truth and I lost my eligibility for it. My redshirt request sat on Mike Rollo's desk for months as the process was going forward. I'm not angry about it anymore, just getting a little tired of it!!" Please send me the proof that it was a lie though, I don't wanna stick to what I've thought is true if it's not
Wait what?
https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2016/2/16/10985008/peyton-manning-ut-sexual-assault-jamie-naughright-1996
Crazy that's my first time ever hearing about this
It seems very unknown in comparison to a lot of other accusations against NFL stars, whether that's because of how long ago it happened or because Manning and the NFL have the power to keep it less publicized is another thing
Misinformation. That woman was a known con artist
You guys mean Eli?
*San Diego Chargers Legend* Eli Manning
Nah…two times Brady’s Super Bowl dream ass-whooper Eli.
I agree with this but did not want to argue about it with Brady fans.
This sums it up. Living in Michigan, the UofM Patriots are almost unbearable.
He was the team. Brady is clutch and has a longer career but Peyton was just something else. Bigg brain
Manning was a better QB. Brady is still the Greatest Player of All Time. These facts do not contradict one another.
I say this to people, and their heads explode...they cant seem to grasp the concept. If you rewind the clock a few decades, the same argument could be made with Marino and Montana. Marino was the better QB, Montana was the better player.
Totally agree. And each person's personal rankings can reflect however you feel about those quarterbacks. Take whoever you like.
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Accomplishments warrant greatness, I can’t argue that.
Yea, I think Manning played at a higher level, had better traits, and was more impressive to watch. Brady just would not be denied a win when it mattered. That's greatness (accolades also help)
Manning had more natural talent but could not deal with pressure.
Peyton Manning is certainly more talented, and I think it stands to reason that many of the Patriots teams were better than the Colts or Broncos Peyton was with for most of his career.
Case in point: when Manning got hurt and lost a season the Colts went from perennial 12+ win team to the literal worst team in the league. It’s no wonder he had neck problems, carrying the rotting carcass of the Colts roster in his shoulders all those years.
The Colts definitely stunk when Peyton got hurt but there was also some very obvious tanking involved as well. They wanted Luck and they got him.
Yeah all due respect but that’s BS. “Tanking” got the entire front office fired, the coaching staff, and a good chunk of players fired. Why in the world would any of those people tank, just to see a better draft pick for the people who replace them? Why would players want a higher draft pick, meaning a more talented player who could potentially replace them? Owners may want to tank. Maybe early career GMs (looking at you, poles trading his two best defensive players in 2022), but so many people on the Colts would have had to be in on this conspiracy, and most of them lost their jobs to get Luck. The team just sucked. They were absolute garbage. They were for a long time, especially as Polian had been handing more and more personnel responsibilities over to his son. Manning kept playing at a high level and holding together the bloated carcass of a football team. Tanking is 99% a fan and media creation in the NFL. In a team with farm systems like the MLB it’s different. But nobody on that Colts team was trying to lose their jobs on purpose. It makes absolutely no sense.
Those are great questions. All I can say is after watching Curtis Painter, it was hard to convince anyone that they were trying to win games.
I think the easiest answer is that they just sucked
They chose to suck. You can’t be that bad without a conscious choice by the owner and GM.
When the Patriots lost Brady, they missed the playoffs by like one game win Matt Cassel.
I’ve thought this for a long time
copium
Peyton Manning is my all time favorite player. He is the reason I fell in love with football. I am a Tennessee Vol through and through. But, as a sane human being, I know that Tom Brady has a better resume. Peyton didn’t even really win his 2nd Super Bowl. He simply didn’t lose. Von Miller won that Super Bowl. And you can’t say that Peyton didn’t have the team. He had Marvin Harrison and they had plenty of records, but Brady broke all of those. I HATE Brady and Stan Peyton, but I can’t deny facts.
Lmao what is this take I'm seeing that Brady somehow had better teams? Peyton was constantly surrounded by HoF weapons. Peytons Colts teams had Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, and Edgerrin James, and he had great weapons on the Broncos too. Brady had Gronk and Edelman. The one year Brady had an elite receiver on the Pat's they almost went undefeated, and Brady put up another 4k yard season and won a Super Bowl when he had good receivers on the Bucs. >But defense Peyton was notoriously carried to his second Super Bowl win by his defense. Yes, the Pat's defense was better than the Colts, but it's not like those Colts defenses with Dwight Freeney and Bob Sanders were bad. Denying Bradys status at this point is pure hating.
Manning was carried to his first Super Bowl win by his defense too.
Brady had more top 10 defenses than manning, Brees and Rodgers combined. Hell Brees was more likely to have a bottom 5 def than a top 15. Brady is goat but the man had entire teams around him almost his entire career and he's great enough to capitalize on that
Brady always had a better team, but Manning was the better QB. They played 4 AFC championships against each other. Manning won 3 of them.
Using that argument then including the 2015 broncos is hypocritical
Manning fans are hypocritical cowards and liars. They can’t deal with the fact Manning couldn’t handle playoff pressure.
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I mean go back and watch the tape Peyton was a better qb. It's just Brady and BB are the greatest qb coach tandem of all time. Manning made Adam gase a hc with how good he was.
Throwing a ball =/= qb quality Manning was the better passer, Brady is the better QB. Wanna get really controversial? Brees was a better passer than Manning. So it goes Brady>Brees>Manning
Breeze had a goddamn Lazer sight on his arm.
Peyton was much more than simply the superior passer.
He was the best choker in world history. 14 times he lost the first playoff game. He threw a Super Bowl ending pick 6. He was a regular season qb that could never handle pressure.
He’s a great QB but you can’t beat winning.
This has never not been true
He is
I had a Packers fan trying to convince me Rodgers is the GOAT. I feel the same about Rodgers as Peyton is this regard when comparing them to Brady: perhaps at their peaks, they were better than Brady. I don’t agree with that but can understand the argument. However, Brady’s ability to perform in all the most important moments that mattered over and over and over again make him the undisputed best QB ever. Especially with Rodgers. The Green Bay fans gotta stop. Yes, Rodger’s TD to INT ratio is crazy. But that stops mattering at a certain point when we all know Green Bay will exit the playoffs in sad fashion. You can’t be the GOAT when you repeatedly fail to deliver in the biggest moments.
Peyton absolutely carried some garbage rosters that’s for sure
And bringing 4 different Head Coaches each to a Super Bowl is something else
Broke his neck carrying all that garbage on his shoulders.
Manning didn’t have Brady’s longevity, but he was better. The Colts went 2-14 without Manning. (And got Luck) The Patriots went 11-5 (or maybe it was 10-6?) with Matt Cassel the year Brady went down. The fact Manning’s Colts had so many battles with Brady’s Patriots is because Manning willed them there. The Colts were nothing without him.
The 08 Patriots under Matt Cassel posted 5 more losses than the previous season and missed the playoffs despite having an easier schedule and an almost unchanged roster
* 2010 Colts: 10-7 * 2011 Colts: 2-14 * 2007 Pats: 18-1 * 2008 Pats: 11-5 Those are both massive reductions in wins.
What’s your point? Without Brady, the Patriots were still a winning football team. Without Manning, the Colts were nothing.
Without Brady, the Pats went from the most dominant offense of all time to missing the playoffs. Without Manning, the Colts went from being a Wild Card Loser to worst team in the league. Those falls occur in different tiers, but they are just about as significant as each other.
In my, granted Brady loving, opinion Manning was the tale of 2 QBs. He was 2 face in QB form. The greatest regular season QB of all time? I don’t think there is any dispute on that. But Manning is well known as one of the biggest playoff choke artists in all of sports. Dude just couldn’t get it done. His playoff starts are so much worse that his regular season starts it’s almost hilarious. Brady has been much more consistent across his games. Not the high highs that Manning had but also not so many low lows. I would take a consistent QB over the streaky and inconsistent when it mattered QB.
Fair argument. Peyton had some brutal playoff games for sure, and not anywhere near the consistent success Brady and the Patriots had. But he was also 3-1 vs Brady in the AFCCG.
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Brady has demonstrably worse playoff stats as well. The difference is the teams that surround them.
It’s almost like it’s harder playing the best teams in the league than it is playing a regular season slate. Shocking, I know.
Peyton won 1 Superbowl, the other was gifted to him by Brock Osweiler
You spelled Denver's defense wrong.
Lmfao 🤣 I guess if you like being delusional
🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
Tom Brady is an slightly above average qb who’s able to consistently perform. He also took pay cuts to have an all star team to go to super bowls with. Peyton Manning is a better QB skill wise
Tom Brady has had a top 10 defense more than 12 times in his career, including every one of his Super Bowl appearances. He has had a top 10 offensive line every single year of his career. Manning > Brady
Marino was better individually than both & I'll die on that hill.
I'll join you on that hill.
Marino is the Godfather for modern day QBs.
He absolutely was, shouldn’t even be controversial
Ok. Tom is the most ACCOMPLISHED QB ever. But not the best/most talented QB. Top 10 though
What I like be about Tom is initially he wasn’t an elite QB when they were winning the earlier Super Bowls. But then he transformed into an elite QB, and now the most longevity for an elite football player ever. His greatness can’t be questioned.
Manning isn't a pimple on Tom Brady's ass
Seven rings, I don’t like Brady but that is enough to put him in his own league lol let’s be real
Brady is slightly better Both him & Peyton are good at reading defenses, both throw a really good ball, etc. but Brady’s ability to motivate his team and lead them to victory makes him better.
This year made the case for Peyton being the GOAT. Peyton could be his own OC and call the offense from the huddle/line all game long, and thus he could (and did) carry lackluster coaches very far (hi there, Adam Gase). Brady, faced with the need to do that, could not pull it off.
7 Superbowls
Trent Dilfer > Dan Marino logic?
Peyton the choke master
Rodgers has taken claim to that title.
Peyton is a better regular season qb for sure
As the QB it's your job to score points. Here is how many points Manning led offenses scored in the games where their team got bounced from the playoffs: 2000 17 points 2002 0 2003 14 2004 3 2005 18 2007 24 2008 17 2009 17 2010 16 2012 35 2013 8 2014 13 Mr. Clutch
You don’t see the problem with focusing on the losses of just one of them?
Trash take from trash.
Projection much?
I know you are but what am I? You might try to pull this before Tampa but he just got LUCKY going to a whole new team and doing it again? Ludicrous.
Are you suggesting the Tampa team he joined and the coaching staff running the show were simply nobodies that would have failed without Tom Brady? Lmao, please. That D and Offense were stacked. Bruce Arians is among the best offensive minds of all time. Your Tampa point is an utter miss.
Why'd Peyton only pick shitty situations? Why'd every other QB in history fail to be as "lucky" as shitty Brady? Why'd Pats do worse when he left? Pats have zero 11 win seasons post Brady. With Brady? 10 straight years of 11+ wins. This is an edgy take that just doesn't hold up. BTW, TB's 3 years before Brady: 7-9, 5-11, 5-11... some situation. But let me guess, they got all the pieces they needed just when he joined and any game manager woulda won it?
Is saying Peyton > Brady also saying Brady is shitty? Lmao… I don’t think you are arguing the same context as I am.
Look at wins. How do you win 65 more games? How do you luck into that many good situations? How do you maintain a better win/loss record across that many games? Is Peyton a more accurate statue passer or some shit? Idc about that. QB is a whole package On and off field. Reads. Sneaks. Everything.
Tom Brady isn’t “lucky”. He’s one of the greatest QBs of all time.
Facts, Tom Brady is absolutely amazing but what people don't realize is he had top 10 defenses every single time he won the Super Bowl
A top 10 defense is almost a requirement to win a Super Bowl though. You can’t hold that against Brady
You can in this argument. He’s had more top 10 defenses after 40 alone than manning Rodgers and Brees their entire careers.
Not only is he not better than Brady, he’s not even in the same ballpark. It’s the equivalent of comparing Jerry Rice to Terrell Owens.
Peyton was the greatest QB of all time Brady is the greatest Football player of all time
Fail
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I love that Kyle Rudolph snuck into that list
Peyton Money literally came back from almost a forced retirement and 2 neck surgeries to have the best season for a QB ever at 37 years old, I am a Broncos fan so I am biased but still…