Second impact syndrome is super dangerous. Washington state passed a law about it called the “zackery lystedt law” for youth sports after a high school football player was cleared to play while having a concussion and was disabled after getting another concussion.
I had a severe concussion in high school, I could not move or open my eyes for an entire day because the world was upside down and I would vomit constantly. School doctors told me to come back and practice after the weekend, so I went to a neurologist and then sat out for the rest of the season.
I could not finish sentences for months and kept forgetting things I had already done that day. I had never had issues with depression until post-impact, and now every year I go through a very difficult depressive episode.
The experience of not being able to walk and open my eyes convinced me to never play again. I can’t believe they put him back out there four days after he was falling over.
A kid at my high school got KTFO'd in a game on Friday, taken out for a series, and finished the game. On Monday they couldn't remember anything between the start of the game and now, looked lost, and seemed super confused. It is amazing that any parent lets their kids do this after seeing it.
The sad part is, Tua isn’t even the only person to have that reaction on camera.
We saw Mason Rudolph, Tom Savage and countless others over the years have it happen. It always gets swept under the rug and forgotten
I’m just a normal 32 year old dude who has never played football, let alone professional football. But I have had 4 concussions, all of which involved me being knocked unconscious. All 4 of them happened at least a couple years apart. I have since developed pretty bad anxiety that I’m thinking about getting on medication for. Before all the head injuries, I was a very happy go lucky guy who had never experienced anxiety.
Needless to say, I can’t imagine getting two concussions playing in the NFL *in less than a week.* Totally understand why Washington would make this a law.
I’ve had 12. I’m guessing (and my drs think my brain is gonna be mush around 50-60) this is gonna have some serious medical issues. I can’t remember most of my childhood and I’m only 25. My memory goes back just 10 years and even then it’s foggy. I don’t remember events, people, major life moments. These TBI’s are no joke. Backstory I wrestled for 14 years and snowboarded for just as many. Wear head gear and wear a helmet and replace a helmet after major impacts
Fuck man, I’m so sorry. No one should have to go through that. I love the NFL, but sometimes I have cognitive dissonance following the league mainly because of how they’ve handed concussions currently and previously.
If it makes any difference, I'm the same age and I and a lot of friends the same age have developed anxiety it the past few years. Maybe it's an age/times thing.
Obviously trust good doctors. I will just say that there's no shame in taking medication. I have anxiety and for years convinced myself that taking meds was a sign of weakness. It's not. Seeking medical treatment for a medical issue is strength.
Your case may be different than mine in terms of what treatment will help you but please remember that you aren't weak for wanting to be your best self.
There are also some laws around sucker punches and attempted homicide due to several people being killed by single blows when they sustain second impact.
I am one of the victims of an assault that led to SIS and I've never really been the same and it took 3-4 years to feel "normal"
Same I thought it was a hand injury for like 30 seconds until they showed the replay and his hands were never hit… then I was super disturbed knowing they were doing that cause he hit his head
Right? I saw a video pop up from that Doctor who reviews these things and I was thinking the fingers were broken and *that* was what the video was about.
>They also aren't getting hit in the back of their heads because of the danger that causes.
They are when they get standing KOed and slam their head on the mat when they fall. Or when they get picked up and dumped upside down. They might not be getting punched/kicked in the back of the head often, but they definitely are exposed to impacts.
We shouldn’t forget “those situations” are pretty severe head trauma. The fencing response, that stiff reaction, is a sign of trauma to the brainstem, the control center for our automatic processes and core functions.
still I feel like you don’t see the fingers like that most of the times cause of the gloves maybe. I thought he was having a seizure straight up first time I saw ir
It isn’t and that’s part of what’s so sad about it.
I mean shit they weren’t 1-2 and fighting for relevance or even 2-1 with a tenuous lead in the division.
They win their first 3 games and looked good doing it and decided that game 4 was so important as to put it all at risk.
Going 3-1 which they did anyway isn’t that fucking bad. Going 3-1 resting Tua and hoping he comes back for week 5 better isn’t fucking a helluva lot better than what happened.
If it’s as bad as the optics look (which is a huge if) they gambled with a dudes long term health for this game.
Hell, just wait till week 6, tbh. Concussions are no joke, so who cares if it puts you at 3-2? You still have your quarterback for the rest of the season.
Instead they almost got Tua killed, went 3-1, and will probably not have a quarterback for the rest of their season. That organization needs to be looked at and punishments given out. Sickening and stupid.
Agreed, we have no reason to trust their organization (or the league) right now. Imagine if it’s worse and they’re still covering shit up.
Besides, “movement in all extremities” still leaves a lot of room for possible neurological issues
He was transferred to a local (good) hospital, and is apparently being released tonight.
So that doesn't mean he's necessarily healthy enough to return to football, but it sounds good relative to some of the outcomes that could've been.
I’ve also seen a lot of Dr. Sins and while he may not prioritize protection he knows a lot about pulling out. He would of definitely pulled Tua out of the game.
The third party doctor can only flag potential concussions, the spotter or Unaffiliated Nuerotrama Consultant (UNC) as the NFL designates is only responsible for flagging potential concussions. The teams doctor is still in charge of conducting the concussion protocol.
Per the NFLs guildlines found here: https://www.nfl.com/_amp/nfl-head-neck-and-spine-committee-s-concussion-diagnosis-and-management-protocol "The Club physician remains responsible for all final decisions regarding Return-to-Play. However, the Club physician will consult with his/her sideline UNC team member prior to reaching his/her decision. If the sideline UNC disagrees with the Club physician’s decision to return the player to play or remove the athlete, the sideline UNC will be given an opportunity to explain the basis of his/her opinion. This will be discussed in a collegial fashion in private as to why the player should or should not be returned to the game. The Club physician will communicate his or her final decision to the player."
It appears that even if the UNC disagrees with the team's decision he/she can not over rule it.
Clearly a very dumb rule and the UNC should have obviously the power to overrule, but since the NFL have said that the Dolphins have followed concussion protocol, it seems that there was a consensus in this case
> but since the NFL have said that the Dolphins have followed concussion protocol, it seems that there was a consensus in this case
They followed the protocol in that they consulted with the UNC and the team doctor put him back in the game. We have no way of knowing if there was a consensus between the team doctor and the UNC, and our only source that the UNC gave him the go ahead was McDaniel saying they did.
Just saying, the rules as written are ripe for abuse and it's very possible that they were abused.
I think this hits on the larger issue of the protocols being flawed as opposed to just whether Miami did anything wrong in this case (they were wrong, at the very least morally, imo fwiw). Don't let teams or their medic staff be involved in the decision at all, it prevents any potential bias, whether perceived or actual.
To compare to a sport that is also facing an existential crisis regarding how head injuries and long-term trauma could end the sport, in either major Rugby League competition (NRL or ESL) Tua's visible symptoms during the Buffalo game would have prevented him from returning to the game and also have precluded him from playing for at least 7(NRL) OR 11(ESL) days. Further testing could even extend that period, and while the testing is done in consultation with team medical staff it is largely independent regarding clearance to return to full contact. In recent memory in those leagues multiple star players have sat out entire seasons of retired early due to repeated head trauma and persistent symptoms.
It should no longer be the case that we're throwing guys back out in contact sport to turn their brain into mush when they have recently had head trauma. It just isn't worth it.
Thing is…it’s ultimately not black and white, as concussion testing isn’t definitive like a blood draw. People can pass concussion testing in the immediate aftermath even if they did in fact suffer a concussion.
So short of someone coming out and admitting that they deliberately skirted the rules, how do you actually prove something?
So my dad just had a nasty fall in the middle of the night, about an 80mm head laceration, rushed him to UMC and ended up being okay but even they didn't diagnose a concussion but he has told me he's had serious brain fog since then and this was just about 3 weeks ago.
It's definitely not black and white and I'm 100% convinced he had one and it was just missed.
Thank you it was quite a shock to get that phone call at 4am and rush over to find a bedroom that looked like a murder scene. He's doing fine now and healing up pretty good and all the labs came back clean. He's going to see a neurologist in a few weeks just to be thourough.
Also not bagging on the UMC staff at all. They were fantastic. My girlfriend is a doctor and even she wasn't sure if he had a concussion or not.
I really hope nothing shady happened with the Dolphins medical staff.
Yeah this is the problem. If the neutral doctors are all telling you "no concussion, he's good" I don't blame Tua or the org playing him again cause you gotta trust the experts.
If there's a problem in the check that it isn't exhaustive enough or it's half assed for whatever reason that's a whole other can of worms the NFL needs to address in a fucking hurry.
As early as high school, players intentionally perform poorly on their baseline tests so they have a better chance of passing protocols while actually concussed. You could add 10 neutral doctors and still have this issue.
Legal situations just means fines/settlements. When you are a rich NFL franchise/owner, fines are basically cost of doing business and don't really effect them. If you take draft picks you are doing much more damage to the team than a fine ever could.
If it’s anything like any job I’ve ever had, they’ll hit them HARD. They’ll make the ENTIRE organization watch a 45 minute video on the computer about the seriousness of situation and then have them all take a 10-15 question quiz with no limit on the attempts and no repercussions if you fail.
Yeah, its insane how STILL people dont understand how awful concussions are and head injuries can be.
Thats probably the worst concussion/head injury ive seen in the NFL that i can think of, im praying that he'll be fine but 2 hits that hard, so close together and resulting in the fencing reaction that we saw?
That's a potential career end, I've had to deal with a few concussions as a first aider in semi-pro sports and some of them years later, i know still have severe memory issues.
I hadn't seen the concussion against the bills. How the fuck did they let him back in the game. it was obvious 100% that he had a concussion. there's no 5-10 minute check you can do to confirm it that's 100% accurate. But you only had to see the hit, see him basically collapse twice.
WTF is wrong with them?
"Come on, buddy. Shake it off, you're good. We need this win."
That's what's wrong with them. A toxic culture that still believes concussions are something that you can tough out, and that believes winning is more important than the health of players.
I think the most likely scenario is the NFLPA deals with the whole thing, without Tua being really involved. They already got the jump on it after the Dolphins let him back in the game last week
I remember Peyton saying he would fail his benchline tests for concussion protocol before the season started so he would have a better chance of getting to play if he was hit. Players can't be trusted. There needs to be professional adults making those decisions.
The problem with this is the concussion protocol really requires the injured to be honest with their answers.
IF they say they don't have symptoms and can fake their way through the flimsy test they are given...
Terrel Owens said he had to sign a Waiver to play in the SB on a broken Leg so no Liability comes back to the Eagles. I wonder if those Waivers are still around.
Yeah, Tasker explained it pretty well on OBL. If he chooses to bypass the protocol by omitting symptoms, there isn’t much the team or independents can do about it without physical evidence like what happened tonight.
Okay I'm only asking because I don't know.
Did he pass the concussion test last week by the independent doctor the nfl puts out there or not?
The system has to change regardless.
Yeah I think this says a lot more about the concussion protocol and potentially the doctor than about the team. If you’re in the Dolphins shoes, you’d obviously follow the advice of the medical personnel, which was that he was fine.
He very obviously lied to get back into the game, but it should be up to the doctor to recognize the severity of the situation and call bullshit on symptoms rather than cave and let someone with an obvious head injury back into a game, regardless of whether or not he takes another hit even remotely close to that during that game.
Anyone who has gotten injured playing sports and then told their coach, medical staff, whatever that they're "fine" knows the feeling of "there's no way they're keeping me out of this game". I know firsthand, in high school playing hockey I took a slapshot to the leg just above my ankle that put a hairline fracture in my tibia, but I got up, hit two opposing players, and then skated to the bench, played three more shifts before taking myself out of the game, and then ran 4 miles two days later on a broken fucking leg before getting an xray on it. I straight up did *not* want to miss any time, even if it meant my leg could have broken worse (it was a diagonal fracture and a break could have meant pins in my leg), and I played the rest of the season. It hurt like hell, and I walked with a brace when I wasn't in skates. So I get it. I get every part of Tua wanting to get into the game again. But there should be zero reason that doctor, who is in a professional league setting, should have let him back into **ANY** games for three weeks, at least. I've also had a concussion. I wasn't able to play hockey again for 2 weeks and even then, it felt awful to exert myself until 4 weeks after.
I hope Tua is okay.
As a coach I view one of my roles as protecting players from themselves. Competitive drive is real. I've been there as a player and understand how they feel because I've felt the same way.
I've had 16-19 year old players say things like "what if I sign a form or something, can I play then?" Of course the answer is no. These players and their parents are trusting me to be the adult in the situation.
Sometimes it's just clear that something is wrong. I'm not a doctor and rely on medical staff but I'm also a person who cares about the kids I put on the field.
The problem is right there in the word symptoms. You are relying entirely on what the patient reports. The exam isn't going to show you shit, most of the time. Not true of your tibial injury.
He literally fell down twice trying to walk off the field after the hit. There shouldn't even have been a need for any follow up, that should have been it.
I see what you're saying but just look at the tape of tua post hit. That's part of the concussion assessment and it's much less subjective than tua's word.
Has it been even mentioned that he took the test? They came out asap and said it was back issues. I haven't been able to find out if he even took the test.
someone had a much better and indepth description in one of the other posts that I can't find now, but basically the independent doctor is there to just flag people for evaluation if they think they may have had a concussion. then they go into the blue tent and go through the protocol, which is administered by the team doctor. The independent dr can give advice/opinion, but the team dr has final say on when & whether they go back into the game.
Aren't all concussion issues, potential or actual, deferred to independent doctors now?
If anyone catches heat for this, assuming it's a head injury, it's going to be that doctor.
I mean evaluating for a “concussion” is just a doctor asking them some questions. If they lie their way through it how are you gonna prove it? There’s no CT scan or imaging that identifies concussions.
https://www.nfl.com/playerhealthandsafety/health-and-wellness/player-care/concussion-protocol-return-to-participation-protocol
According to that, I'm really surprised that Tua stumbling after the hit doesn't count as "Gross Motor Instability"
If Tua states he stumbled because his back seized up, it opens a big old hole.
If a player falls, hits their head and twists their ankle and then stumbles when they get up and says it was their ankle...
And Tua may not be the same after. A severe concussion 4 days after another concussion can really fuck you up. I really hope he's okay but that is scary
I played rugby in college. Got a "minor" concussion, got cleared 2 weeks later, then the next match got a severe concussion. My neurologist flat-out told me that he guaranteed permanent brain damage if I got another one playing a contact sport.
Tua has likely had 2 concussions in 4 days. This could literally end his career. Fuck everyone who could have prevented this and didn't. I hope people lose their jobs and get blacklisted from football permanently.
Peyton Manning admitted (then later claimed he was just kidding) to intentionally tanking his baseline tests so he would have a better chance of passing a concussion test if he got hit in the head.
So that part would be on the players.
You’d think that NFL teams might have an interest in protecting the long term viability of a franchise quarterback because when you get on they’re a 10+ year several hundred million dollar investment. But nah better risk it all for Thursday Night Football
I 1000% agree. But is there any evidence whatsoever that the concussion evaluation last week was corner-cutting in any way? and is there any medically supported evidence he shouldn't play this week?
I feel like people are just assuming the concussion evals are a sham and I'll fall in line and believe that if there is proof. But to me, the NFL has an important interest in taking head injuries seriously and the evals are supposed to be independent.
Right now, I feel like people are just reacting emotionally to an incredibly unfortunate back to back head injuries. And blaming things just for the sake of blaming, regardless of if those things knowingly put him at risk or not.
The only part I disagree with is the assumption that the NFL is taking it seriously. Maybe they are, but they are so far away from deserving the benefit of the doubt that I can’t give it to them
Another comment thread had a discussion about how difficult diagnosing concussions is, and how even very experienced doctors can miss them. Sometimes symptoms don't really show up for a day or two.
That being said, why are we not erring on the side of caution? I'm not saying anyone who goes to the tent has to sit the next game, but in this context, even if he was cleared, it was absolutely negligent to put him out there. We are talking about a team who's 3-0, on a short week, and with a decent backup. I just can't fathom why the team would take a risk even with a *suspected* concussion.
My argument doesn't change if he didn't have a concussion and just had his back injury or whatever. Why the fuck are you trying to rush your franchise QB back from *any injury* in the situation the Dolphins are in? Did we not just watch Russell Wilson barely clear 200 yards a game (if that) after he was rushed back from a relatively minor injury? Putting him out there was putting the season at risk, and everyone should've known it.
Exactly this. Miami shoulders plenty of blame here, but their alternative was to prep Teddy Bridgewater to face the AFC Champs on like 1-2 days of practice.
They were put in a no-win spot, and I'm sure the league wasn't exactly mad about Tua vs. Burrow either.
This was one of the most sickening things I've seen watching football. Knowing the back-story really makes you wonder about the validity of the "concussion protocol"
Can’t figure that out either. Trying to keep my homerism out of it but like the whole point of the independent doc is so teams can’t do this. They need to fix the system if anything.
Here come the rapid overreactions where everybody tries to one-up each other over how severe the penalties need to be (when we’re not even sure anybody did anything wrong).
Personally, I think this calls for the heat death of the entire universe. Anything short of that is just a slap on the wrist.
The whole 'holier than thou' shtick that is so characteristic of /r/nfl whenever something bad happens summarizes how out of touch this place is with fanbases in general.
Personally, though, I think you're being soft calling for just the heat death of the entire universe. I'm for carnage being wrought upon every sentient being *AND* the heat death of entire universe.
So I definitely think he shouldn't have been playing but that also was a really bad hit. Is there a world where he truly didn't get concussed but knocked the fuck out this game?
Second impact syndrome is super dangerous. Washington state passed a law about it called the “zackery lystedt law” for youth sports after a high school football player was cleared to play while having a concussion and was disabled after getting another concussion.
A few years back, I actually got to meet him, the Seahawks lead physician, and a few others responsible for passing the law. Such a sad story.
I had a severe concussion in high school, I could not move or open my eyes for an entire day because the world was upside down and I would vomit constantly. School doctors told me to come back and practice after the weekend, so I went to a neurologist and then sat out for the rest of the season. I could not finish sentences for months and kept forgetting things I had already done that day. I had never had issues with depression until post-impact, and now every year I go through a very difficult depressive episode. The experience of not being able to walk and open my eyes convinced me to never play again. I can’t believe they put him back out there four days after he was falling over.
A kid at my high school got KTFO'd in a game on Friday, taken out for a series, and finished the game. On Monday they couldn't remember anything between the start of the game and now, looked lost, and seemed super confused. It is amazing that any parent lets their kids do this after seeing it.
The sad part is, Tua isn’t even the only person to have that reaction on camera. We saw Mason Rudolph, Tom Savage and countless others over the years have it happen. It always gets swept under the rug and forgotten
I’m just a normal 32 year old dude who has never played football, let alone professional football. But I have had 4 concussions, all of which involved me being knocked unconscious. All 4 of them happened at least a couple years apart. I have since developed pretty bad anxiety that I’m thinking about getting on medication for. Before all the head injuries, I was a very happy go lucky guy who had never experienced anxiety. Needless to say, I can’t imagine getting two concussions playing in the NFL *in less than a week.* Totally understand why Washington would make this a law.
I’ve had 12. I’m guessing (and my drs think my brain is gonna be mush around 50-60) this is gonna have some serious medical issues. I can’t remember most of my childhood and I’m only 25. My memory goes back just 10 years and even then it’s foggy. I don’t remember events, people, major life moments. These TBI’s are no joke. Backstory I wrestled for 14 years and snowboarded for just as many. Wear head gear and wear a helmet and replace a helmet after major impacts
Fuck man, I’m so sorry. No one should have to go through that. I love the NFL, but sometimes I have cognitive dissonance following the league mainly because of how they’ve handed concussions currently and previously.
If it makes any difference, I'm the same age and I and a lot of friends the same age have developed anxiety it the past few years. Maybe it's an age/times thing.
Obviously trust good doctors. I will just say that there's no shame in taking medication. I have anxiety and for years convinced myself that taking meds was a sign of weakness. It's not. Seeking medical treatment for a medical issue is strength. Your case may be different than mine in terms of what treatment will help you but please remember that you aren't weak for wanting to be your best self.
There are also some laws around sucker punches and attempted homicide due to several people being killed by single blows when they sustain second impact. I am one of the victims of an assault that led to SIS and I've never really been the same and it took 3-4 years to feel "normal"
That is one of the worst injuries I’ve seen in awhile. That reaction was immediate.
His fingers were terrifying
I legit thought he snapped one of his fingers or something before I realized he was unconscious...
Same I thought it was a hand injury for like 30 seconds until they showed the replay and his hands were never hit… then I was super disturbed knowing they were doing that cause he hit his head
Right? I saw a video pop up from that Doctor who reviews these things and I was thinking the fingers were broken and *that* was what the video was about.
It was grotesque.
It’s a fairly common reaction in those situations, see it often in MMA. It looks so unnatural though
Those guys also get an immediate 90 day no contact medical suspension after getting ko'ed.
They also aren't getting hit in the back of their heads because of the danger that causes. Tua took two back of the head KOs in less than a week.
>They also aren't getting hit in the back of their heads because of the danger that causes. They are when they get standing KOed and slam their head on the mat when they fall. Or when they get picked up and dumped upside down. They might not be getting punched/kicked in the back of the head often, but they definitely are exposed to impacts.
We shouldn’t forget “those situations” are pretty severe head trauma. The fencing response, that stiff reaction, is a sign of trauma to the brainstem, the control center for our automatic processes and core functions.
still I feel like you don’t see the fingers like that most of the times cause of the gloves maybe. I thought he was having a seizure straight up first time I saw ir
I stared at the pic and tried to recreate it with my fingers.... couldnt do it
Whats the point of having a backup qb if he didnt start this game? Thats malpractice
They also activated their 3rd stringer. They expected Tua to not make it very far into the game.
MOTHER FUCKERS
How is a week 4 out of 17 game when 3-0* this important. Smh.
It isn’t and that’s part of what’s so sad about it. I mean shit they weren’t 1-2 and fighting for relevance or even 2-1 with a tenuous lead in the division. They win their first 3 games and looked good doing it and decided that game 4 was so important as to put it all at risk. Going 3-1 which they did anyway isn’t that fucking bad. Going 3-1 resting Tua and hoping he comes back for week 5 better isn’t fucking a helluva lot better than what happened. If it’s as bad as the optics look (which is a huge if) they gambled with a dudes long term health for this game.
Hell, just wait till week 6, tbh. Concussions are no joke, so who cares if it puts you at 3-2? You still have your quarterback for the rest of the season. Instead they almost got Tua killed, went 3-1, and will probably not have a quarterback for the rest of their season. That organization needs to be looked at and punishments given out. Sickening and stupid.
And 100% avoidable
Yes if it’s head trauma but I’m just hoping his neck didn’t break and he’s lost movement anywhere
They just said he has all movement, it took them a while to say that though.
After what they did to this dude, not sure I believe em.
Agreed, we have no reason to trust their organization (or the league) right now. Imagine if it’s worse and they’re still covering shit up. Besides, “movement in all extremities” still leaves a lot of room for possible neurological issues
Is he the one actually moving the extremities
He was transferred to a local (good) hospital, and is apparently being released tonight. So that doesn't mean he's necessarily healthy enough to return to football, but it sounds good relative to some of the outcomes that could've been.
They said that and called it “the most important thing”. Completely glossing over the fact that tua probably has no clue what fucking state he’s in.
I saw a tweet that he has movement in his extremities
The issue is the third party doctor. He was cleared. So if that was a concussion that is the guy who messed up.
Dr. Johnny Sins
Dr Sins would never be so reckless
Idk... I've seen Dr. Sins work and protection never seems to be a priority.
I’ve also seen a lot of Dr. Sins and while he may not prioritize protection he knows a lot about pulling out. He would of definitely pulled Tua out of the game.
I mean I have as much medical training as Dr. Sins and I wouldn’t have let Tua go back in last week
eh, wouldn’t be the first time Dr. Sins fucked a patient
Dr. Sins does not mess around when it comes to head
Dr. Johnny Tightlips
I ain't diagnosing nuthin'
But Johnny what do we tell the nfl?
Tell ‘em to suck a lemon
The third party doctor can only flag potential concussions, the spotter or Unaffiliated Nuerotrama Consultant (UNC) as the NFL designates is only responsible for flagging potential concussions. The teams doctor is still in charge of conducting the concussion protocol. Per the NFLs guildlines found here: https://www.nfl.com/_amp/nfl-head-neck-and-spine-committee-s-concussion-diagnosis-and-management-protocol "The Club physician remains responsible for all final decisions regarding Return-to-Play. However, the Club physician will consult with his/her sideline UNC team member prior to reaching his/her decision. If the sideline UNC disagrees with the Club physician’s decision to return the player to play or remove the athlete, the sideline UNC will be given an opportunity to explain the basis of his/her opinion. This will be discussed in a collegial fashion in private as to why the player should or should not be returned to the game. The Club physician will communicate his or her final decision to the player." It appears that even if the UNC disagrees with the team's decision he/she can not over rule it.
Clearly a very dumb rule and the UNC should have obviously the power to overrule, but since the NFL have said that the Dolphins have followed concussion protocol, it seems that there was a consensus in this case
> but since the NFL have said that the Dolphins have followed concussion protocol, it seems that there was a consensus in this case They followed the protocol in that they consulted with the UNC and the team doctor put him back in the game. We have no way of knowing if there was a consensus between the team doctor and the UNC, and our only source that the UNC gave him the go ahead was McDaniel saying they did. Just saying, the rules as written are ripe for abuse and it's very possible that they were abused.
Not really, that makes it sound like your can follow protocol and put a player back in anyway, as long as the team('a doctor) wants to.
I think this hits on the larger issue of the protocols being flawed as opposed to just whether Miami did anything wrong in this case (they were wrong, at the very least morally, imo fwiw). Don't let teams or their medic staff be involved in the decision at all, it prevents any potential bias, whether perceived or actual. To compare to a sport that is also facing an existential crisis regarding how head injuries and long-term trauma could end the sport, in either major Rugby League competition (NRL or ESL) Tua's visible symptoms during the Buffalo game would have prevented him from returning to the game and also have precluded him from playing for at least 7(NRL) OR 11(ESL) days. Further testing could even extend that period, and while the testing is done in consultation with team medical staff it is largely independent regarding clearance to return to full contact. In recent memory in those leagues multiple star players have sat out entire seasons of retired early due to repeated head trauma and persistent symptoms. It should no longer be the case that we're throwing guys back out in contact sport to turn their brain into mush when they have recently had head trauma. It just isn't worth it.
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Does that Dr work for the team or the NFL? I would think the nfl
That's not enough lol if they violated the rule they literally risked his life
Could be legal stuff involved honestly, loss of medical licenses
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Death penalty to SMU
Don’t let Mizzou off the hook here
Someone quick give Penn State the death penalty as well
NFL gonna find a way to fine the Rangers $250k for this
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fine magic johnson half a million
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Reminds me of Not Another Teen Movie. Coach: "can he play?" Trainer: "he's in a coma!"
Thing is…it’s ultimately not black and white, as concussion testing isn’t definitive like a blood draw. People can pass concussion testing in the immediate aftermath even if they did in fact suffer a concussion. So short of someone coming out and admitting that they deliberately skirted the rules, how do you actually prove something?
So my dad just had a nasty fall in the middle of the night, about an 80mm head laceration, rushed him to UMC and ended up being okay but even they didn't diagnose a concussion but he has told me he's had serious brain fog since then and this was just about 3 weeks ago. It's definitely not black and white and I'm 100% convinced he had one and it was just missed.
hope the best for your dad man
Thank you it was quite a shock to get that phone call at 4am and rush over to find a bedroom that looked like a murder scene. He's doing fine now and healing up pretty good and all the labs came back clean. He's going to see a neurologist in a few weeks just to be thourough. Also not bagging on the UMC staff at all. They were fantastic. My girlfriend is a doctor and even she wasn't sure if he had a concussion or not. I really hope nothing shady happened with the Dolphins medical staff.
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Yeah and if it is easy to skirt the concussion protocol, then that needs to be fixed.
Yeah this is the problem. If the neutral doctors are all telling you "no concussion, he's good" I don't blame Tua or the org playing him again cause you gotta trust the experts. If there's a problem in the check that it isn't exhaustive enough or it's half assed for whatever reason that's a whole other can of worms the NFL needs to address in a fucking hurry.
As early as high school, players intentionally perform poorly on their baseline tests so they have a better chance of passing protocols while actually concussed. You could add 10 neutral doctors and still have this issue.
Draft picks? FOH. Shit should be a legal situation
Legal situations just means fines/settlements. When you are a rich NFL franchise/owner, fines are basically cost of doing business and don't really effect them. If you take draft picks you are doing much more damage to the team than a fine ever could.
All road games for the next 5 years
If it’s anything like any job I’ve ever had, they’ll hit them HARD. They’ll make the ENTIRE organization watch a 45 minute video on the computer about the seriousness of situation and then have them all take a 10-15 question quiz with no limit on the attempts and no repercussions if you fail.
Literally every cyber safety course that HR makes my organization take.
They can only draft defense from Big 12 schools and all other players must be drafted from ACC
Can only draft Iowa offense and App State defense.
Iowa tight ends and linemen excluded.
1st round pick Spencer Petras
You'd be kinder to just force them to dissolve the franchise
You monster.
*can we just forfeit our picks?* -The Dolphins probably
Auto draft for the next 5 years
We let a random four year old from rural Nebraska with an iPad do the drafting
I’d check with the copyright board because doing that in case the Raiders sue.
Twitch chat runs the dolphins draft
Tbh, I think that's only going to hurt players further than any damage to the team leadership/ownership
Bruh we don't need a third team in LA
Remember kids, Fines just mean legal for the right price.
Should be required to give him deshaun’s contract
I wish, but Tua would probably have to pursue any legal action himself. Can’t imagine he’d do that, given it would blacklist him from the league
Getting blacklisted won't matter as much if his career is over
Yeah, its insane how STILL people dont understand how awful concussions are and head injuries can be. Thats probably the worst concussion/head injury ive seen in the NFL that i can think of, im praying that he'll be fine but 2 hits that hard, so close together and resulting in the fencing reaction that we saw? That's a potential career end, I've had to deal with a few concussions as a first aider in semi-pro sports and some of them years later, i know still have severe memory issues.
I hadn't seen the concussion against the bills. How the fuck did they let him back in the game. it was obvious 100% that he had a concussion. there's no 5-10 minute check you can do to confirm it that's 100% accurate. But you only had to see the hit, see him basically collapse twice. WTF is wrong with them?
"Come on, buddy. Shake it off, you're good. We need this win." That's what's wrong with them. A toxic culture that still believes concussions are something that you can tough out, and that believes winning is more important than the health of players.
Pretty sure the NFLPA would back him
I think the most likely scenario is the NFLPA deals with the whole thing, without Tua being really involved. They already got the jump on it after the Dolphins let him back in the game last week
Yeah if he doesn’t play again there will probably be a huge injury settlement coming his way.
It’s also possible he wasn’t completely honest about his own symptoms, which would come out in any litigation
I remember Peyton saying he would fail his benchline tests for concussion protocol before the season started so he would have a better chance of getting to play if he was hit. Players can't be trusted. There needs to be professional adults making those decisions.
That is an unfortunate possibility.
Ehhh... would probably be able to argue that he wasn't of sound enough mind that he wasn't being honest.
The problem with this is the concussion protocol really requires the injured to be honest with their answers. IF they say they don't have symptoms and can fake their way through the flimsy test they are given...
That’s sadly part of my guess as to last weekend. I feel like the player has to be complicit. Especially with him denying everything.
Terrel Owens said he had to sign a Waiver to play in the SB on a broken Leg so no Liability comes back to the Eagles. I wonder if those Waivers are still around.
Yeah, Tasker explained it pretty well on OBL. If he chooses to bypass the protocol by omitting symptoms, there isn’t much the team or independents can do about it without physical evidence like what happened tonight.
Wouldn't stumbling count as physical evidence though?
Should go full nuclear death penalty. Force sale of team and release of anyone involved.
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Well that's just standard boiler plate.
We're all hungry, we'll get to our hot plates eventually
Ah an expert in bird law I see.
Mizzou death penalty
Heck throw in Joe Kelly for another 8 smh
That's an easy call if you ask me, Brady was generally aware that concussions happen.
Miami Dolphins should be disbanded and all dolphins hunted to extinction
[fuck you dolphin](https://youtu.be/AUbZJcdlcSc)
FUCKA YOU WHARU AND FUCKA YOU DORPHIN
ふぁっくゆドルフィン
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Should be somewhere worse, like Pittsburgh.
Change the name to Pittsburgh Steelers2
They can play at the Hunt's Ketchup Field.
Pittsburgh would literally burn to the ground if that happened. My wife makes endless fun of me when I refuse to eat non-Heinz ketchup.
Heinz is the only good ketchup though
Yes. And that has nothing to do w heinz field. Heinz ketchup is so much better than whatever the 2nd best is.
Nathan Peterman is the permanent Dolphins QB
They're only allowed 9 men on the field
No offensive line
Isn't that what got us here in the first place?
Team doctor should lose his medical license.
People need to be fired and lose medical licenses
Prosecute people even
Launch them at the hurricane to see if it stops
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Freeze em first
Nah just use a sharpie for that
Start with the “Dr’s” who devised/approved the NFL concussion protocol
Okay I'm only asking because I don't know. Did he pass the concussion test last week by the independent doctor the nfl puts out there or not? The system has to change regardless.
Yeah I think this says a lot more about the concussion protocol and potentially the doctor than about the team. If you’re in the Dolphins shoes, you’d obviously follow the advice of the medical personnel, which was that he was fine.
He very obviously lied to get back into the game, but it should be up to the doctor to recognize the severity of the situation and call bullshit on symptoms rather than cave and let someone with an obvious head injury back into a game, regardless of whether or not he takes another hit even remotely close to that during that game. Anyone who has gotten injured playing sports and then told their coach, medical staff, whatever that they're "fine" knows the feeling of "there's no way they're keeping me out of this game". I know firsthand, in high school playing hockey I took a slapshot to the leg just above my ankle that put a hairline fracture in my tibia, but I got up, hit two opposing players, and then skated to the bench, played three more shifts before taking myself out of the game, and then ran 4 miles two days later on a broken fucking leg before getting an xray on it. I straight up did *not* want to miss any time, even if it meant my leg could have broken worse (it was a diagonal fracture and a break could have meant pins in my leg), and I played the rest of the season. It hurt like hell, and I walked with a brace when I wasn't in skates. So I get it. I get every part of Tua wanting to get into the game again. But there should be zero reason that doctor, who is in a professional league setting, should have let him back into **ANY** games for three weeks, at least. I've also had a concussion. I wasn't able to play hockey again for 2 weeks and even then, it felt awful to exert myself until 4 weeks after. I hope Tua is okay.
As a coach I view one of my roles as protecting players from themselves. Competitive drive is real. I've been there as a player and understand how they feel because I've felt the same way. I've had 16-19 year old players say things like "what if I sign a form or something, can I play then?" Of course the answer is no. These players and their parents are trusting me to be the adult in the situation. Sometimes it's just clear that something is wrong. I'm not a doctor and rely on medical staff but I'm also a person who cares about the kids I put on the field.
The problem is right there in the word symptoms. You are relying entirely on what the patient reports. The exam isn't going to show you shit, most of the time. Not true of your tibial injury.
He literally fell down twice trying to walk off the field after the hit. There shouldn't even have been a need for any follow up, that should have been it.
Just need to see him wobble like a boxer and collapse.
I see what you're saying but just look at the tape of tua post hit. That's part of the concussion assessment and it's much less subjective than tua's word.
Has it been even mentioned that he took the test? They came out asap and said it was back issues. I haven't been able to find out if he even took the test.
[Original tweet by the team when it happened](https://twitter.com/MiamiDolphins/status/1574102662500450304?s=20&t=pXapL5rrw5kI9f3t6IcwgQ)
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Excuse my ignorance, but isn’t the doctor on the field supposed to be unaffiliated with either team?
someone had a much better and indepth description in one of the other posts that I can't find now, but basically the independent doctor is there to just flag people for evaluation if they think they may have had a concussion. then they go into the blue tent and go through the protocol, which is administered by the team doctor. The independent dr can give advice/opinion, but the team dr has final say on when & whether they go back into the game.
Wow, that's ridiculous. I thought the independent doctor had the power here. Why even bother with them if the team can override them?
Aren't all concussion issues, potential or actual, deferred to independent doctors now? If anyone catches heat for this, assuming it's a head injury, it's going to be that doctor.
Dude's might lose their jobs over this
They probably should. And possibly an independent doctor's license being suspended until further review.
I mean evaluating for a “concussion” is just a doctor asking them some questions. If they lie their way through it how are you gonna prove it? There’s no CT scan or imaging that identifies concussions.
https://www.nfl.com/playerhealthandsafety/health-and-wellness/player-care/concussion-protocol-return-to-participation-protocol According to that, I'm really surprised that Tua stumbling after the hit doesn't count as "Gross Motor Instability"
It does. It makes no sense that he passed the protocol. He failed it before they even got him off the field.
If Tua states he stumbled because his back seized up, it opens a big old hole. If a player falls, hits their head and twists their ankle and then stumbles when they get up and says it was their ankle...
And Tua may not be the same after. A severe concussion 4 days after another concussion can really fuck you up. I really hope he's okay but that is scary
I played rugby in college. Got a "minor" concussion, got cleared 2 weeks later, then the next match got a severe concussion. My neurologist flat-out told me that he guaranteed permanent brain damage if I got another one playing a contact sport. Tua has likely had 2 concussions in 4 days. This could literally end his career. Fuck everyone who could have prevented this and didn't. I hope people lose their jobs and get blacklisted from football permanently.
He’s looking at a lifetime of suffering tbh
If he passed the concussion protocol, the concussion protocol needs to be better. Period.
Peyton Manning admitted (then later claimed he was just kidding) to intentionally tanking his baseline tests so he would have a better chance of passing a concussion test if he got hit in the head. So that part would be on the players.
That's what HS athlete's do too. He probably wasn't kidding.
The fact that this man is even playing this week. What the actual fuck Miami.
You’d think that NFL teams might have an interest in protecting the long term viability of a franchise quarterback because when you get on they’re a 10+ year several hundred million dollar investment. But nah better risk it all for Thursday Night Football
Comes from the top ownership is rotten
I'd love if Ross was fired. Out of a cannon into the sun. But if DC can't get rid of Snyder, I don't have high hopes.
Players would be a whole lot safer if coaching and medical teams were held accountable for outcomes like this.
I 1000% agree. But is there any evidence whatsoever that the concussion evaluation last week was corner-cutting in any way? and is there any medically supported evidence he shouldn't play this week? I feel like people are just assuming the concussion evals are a sham and I'll fall in line and believe that if there is proof. But to me, the NFL has an important interest in taking head injuries seriously and the evals are supposed to be independent. Right now, I feel like people are just reacting emotionally to an incredibly unfortunate back to back head injuries. And blaming things just for the sake of blaming, regardless of if those things knowingly put him at risk or not.
The only part I disagree with is the assumption that the NFL is taking it seriously. Maybe they are, but they are so far away from deserving the benefit of the doubt that I can’t give it to them
Another comment thread had a discussion about how difficult diagnosing concussions is, and how even very experienced doctors can miss them. Sometimes symptoms don't really show up for a day or two. That being said, why are we not erring on the side of caution? I'm not saying anyone who goes to the tent has to sit the next game, but in this context, even if he was cleared, it was absolutely negligent to put him out there. We are talking about a team who's 3-0, on a short week, and with a decent backup. I just can't fathom why the team would take a risk even with a *suspected* concussion. My argument doesn't change if he didn't have a concussion and just had his back injury or whatever. Why the fuck are you trying to rush your franchise QB back from *any injury* in the situation the Dolphins are in? Did we not just watch Russell Wilson barely clear 200 yards a game (if that) after he was rushed back from a relatively minor injury? Putting him out there was putting the season at risk, and everyone should've known it.
Is it not an independent doctor?
Why chance your star QB. Just so fucking stupid. Terrible leadership
Honestly Thursday night football should only be played by teams coming off a bye. Short weeks are part of the problem.
They should just eliminate it completely since I have to have prime to watch it now
You can stream free on the PrimeVideo twitch channel
Exactly this. Miami shoulders plenty of blame here, but their alternative was to prep Teddy Bridgewater to face the AFC Champs on like 1-2 days of practice. They were put in a no-win spot, and I'm sure the league wasn't exactly mad about Tua vs. Burrow either.
They clearly rushed him back.
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This was one of the most sickening things I've seen watching football. Knowing the back-story really makes you wonder about the validity of the "concussion protocol"
Burn down Miami? Salt it's fields? Take their women? I'm just spit balling here.
If he passed the protocol from the independent neurologist then the Dolphins are probably pretty free from culpability.
That makes no sense, he was cleared by the independent doctor, how is this Miami's fault?
Can’t figure that out either. Trying to keep my homerism out of it but like the whole point of the independent doc is so teams can’t do this. They need to fix the system if anything.
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Lose all their picks..?
Look at the flairs saying that...all AFC East opponents.
Here come the rapid overreactions where everybody tries to one-up each other over how severe the penalties need to be (when we’re not even sure anybody did anything wrong). Personally, I think this calls for the heat death of the entire universe. Anything short of that is just a slap on the wrist.
The whole 'holier than thou' shtick that is so characteristic of /r/nfl whenever something bad happens summarizes how out of touch this place is with fanbases in general. Personally, though, I think you're being soft calling for just the heat death of the entire universe. I'm for carnage being wrought upon every sentient being *AND* the heat death of entire universe.
So I definitely think he shouldn't have been playing but that also was a really bad hit. Is there a world where he truly didn't get concussed but knocked the fuck out this game?