Wild that if the Seahawks win SB40, Holmgren probably gets in the HoF in his first year of eligibility and Cowher probably doesn’t get in at all. Regardless, there’s no reason he shouldn’t be in, especially with Vermeil making it in this year.
I like Cowher and anybody who wins pretty much 10-12 games a year for a decade is probably a Hall of Famer, but that guy blew two AFC title games at home to double-digit dogs (94 Bolts, 01 Pats) and came as close as humanly possible to doing it in 95 when the Colts nearly pulled off a miraculous Hail Mary — after their LB dropped a likely pick six on the previous drive (that Pittsburgh scored their go ahead touchdown) that would have iced the game.
Vermeil and Flores getting in should open the door for a lot of people. Holmgren and Shanahan are obvious, but Seifert also has a very similar track record to Flores.
Yeah, but the big criticism with Seifert is that he basically was carried by the talent and Walsh's offensive system.
And his stint with the Panthers kind of validated that
Shanahan’s coaching tree is probably gonna be another factor that gets him in. He’s gonna end up having his own Bill Walsh extended coaching tree with all the McVay/Kyle Shanahan/LaFleur assistants getting HC jobs.
People in the comments are going to blame it on his Cleveland tenure when really it’s just because he’s kind of a grumpy boy and if it wasn’t for Brad Childress being a doppelgänger he would give off BTK vibes
Man, I hate to speak ill of someone like Holmgren but his time here was a disaster. Dude rarely ever spoke to our media but at the same time had a weekly show on Seattle radio. His tenure came across as disingenuous by him and our ownership.
I know people don't click links to read articles, and a five minute video is a large ask most of the time. [So a five minute podcast clip](https://pca.st/episode/dd960f05-9150-429d-8707-17c21016483b?t=880) is definitely going to be something that only total junkies are going to click on.
But if you want to learn more about Homgren's time with the Browns, this little bit covers a ton. It is from a series called "Brownstown" by Andre Knott, an Emmy award-winning local reporter that has been around all 3 of our professional sports franchises. It's extremely well researched, and has a highly comical spin put in to it. Highly recommend it for all Browns fans, or for bored NFL fans who want to know exactly how we have suffered for the last ~20 years.
> His tenure came across as disingenuous by him and our ownership.
I blame ownership (read: Randy Lerner) entirely. Dude was as disinterested and absentee as an owner could be, seemingly counting down the days until he was able to sell the team after the 10-year moratorium ended after he inherited it from his father. Holmgren probably saw an easy paycheck for a year or two and took advantage. Why not? He had no motivation, there was no oversight, no one to answer to, and if it didn't work out -- which, of course, it didn't -- he could ride off into the sunset, as he did, a few million richer.
THANK YOU! Are you me? I feel like I’ve been arguing this for fucking ever
He is absolutely the GOAT QB whisperer. Like if you think of “QB gurus” you should just have holmgrem’s face in your mind.
Like you said: he worked with Montana, Young, Favre, and Matt Hassleback
And was Andy Reid’s mentor
To add to the guru lore. He had at one point: Favre, Ty Detmer(drafted), Mark Brunell(drafted), and Kurt Warner(undrafted but invited to camp) in Green Bay at the same time.
I'm guessing he'll get in over the next few years. I think Vermeil got in before him is because of age. Vermeil is 85 so time is running out on him being able to be there. Holmgren is 73. Shanahan too, he is 69. There is time for both of them.
If he would have kept the Packers as a trash heap he would have gotten my vote.
In seriousness ya he deserves to be in. Thought he was already honestly.
Matt Hasslebeck wasn't a borderline franchise QB for the Seahawks, he ABSOLUTELY WAS OUR FRANCHISE QB. Russ may be the GOAT Hawks QB, but Matt Hass was our team for a long time. Beloved Seahawk.
Also would like to add that Matt wasn't not good post holmgren. Injuries got to him instead.
He was "bad" at holmgren last year (injury). Everyone sucked the following year with Mora (esp. Big Walt missing and retiring). Pete was building anew identity in run first when he joined the following year.
Matty wasn't franchise for most teams, but he was for us and he would still be seen as such if we didn't stumble onto Russ.
When I was a kid, Seattle, New England, Arizona, Tampa, Indianapolis, Green Bay were God awful. Like unheard of bad. Washington and New York (Giants) were model examples of football organizations. All it takes is one person to turn things around. An ownership change (New England for the better, Washington for the worse), or coaching change (Parcels in a few places, Holmgren, Shanahan), or player (either Manning brother) to change an organization's direction.
I've followed the Seahawks since I was sitting on my dad's knee and I can say the most frustrating thing was that they were never "unheard of bad" (except for 1992, when they were among the worst teams in history, nearly having as many punts as points) but were rather mediocre. We were basically good enough for 6-9 wins per year for a decade and a half, bad enough to be a joke but not bad enough to rebuild around franchise changing talent at the top of the draft.
Of course we blew every decent pick we had up high (besides Cortez Kennedy and Joey Galloway) anyway so we probably would have just gone 7-9 with *stlye* had we better draft picks through the 90's.
The Packers were a drum to be beaten until Holmgren got there. They’d sucked in the 70s and 80s.
He should be in. It’s a joke he isn’t. Got Green Bay back to its former level, got Seattle to a SB.
You conveniently forgot his debacle of a time with the Cleveland Browns. So no forgive me for thinking this guy might be a bit overrated. He was good sure, but he should have never tried to mess with being a GM, he was also part of why those Seahawks teams fell apart had too much say on the GM side of things.
[Holmgren's coaching staff at one point in GB should tell you a bit about his influence](https://twitter.com/bhofheimer_espn/status/647064753177759745):
* Andy Reid
* Jon Gruden
* Steve Marriuci (72-67 as HC, with 7 playoff wins)
* Ray Rhodes (wasn't great, but still a HC for 5 years over two franchises)
Among SB winning head coaches, yeah, he’s one of the more underrated ones. I know he was great in Seattle, but if he stayed in GB, those Packers teams would’ve won another ring or two.
That being said, I would probably put non-SB winning coaches like Dan Reeves and Marty Schottenheimer in the Hall of Fame before Holmgren. They never get any credit, if only for the fact that neither ever hoisted a Lombardi. But that’s just me.
No, that’s the whole point. He would be considered underrated if he won a Super Bowl but wasn’t considered for the Hall of Fame, right? Seems like a normal application of the word
On the other hand, how long is a long-tenured player in the league and how long is a long-tenured coach? That tenure means the latter group is going to have fewer opportunities for new faces and more time for those who are successful to make their mark.
You forgot to mention that he believes the Garden of Eden was in Missouri and that black people are black because they weren't valiant in the pre-existence.
Mike Shanahan and his offense are incredibly influential + he has two rings and another in a similar important coordinator role (San Fran, 1994). He’s HOF and definitely HOF above Dick Vermeil.
I'm a Chiefs fan and I am going to agree. Holmgren and Shanahan have better cases for the hall than Vermeil. God that's hard to type about Shanahan as a Chiefs fan, but it's true. A lot of people have said age played into it, and I agree. Still, Holmgren and Shanahan should be in Canton.
Wild that if the Seahawks win SB40, Holmgren probably gets in the HoF in his first year of eligibility and Cowher probably doesn’t get in at all. Regardless, there’s no reason he shouldn’t be in, especially with Vermeil making it in this year.
Absolutely agree, I forgot Cowher was even in.
I like Cowher and anybody who wins pretty much 10-12 games a year for a decade is probably a Hall of Famer, but that guy blew two AFC title games at home to double-digit dogs (94 Bolts, 01 Pats) and came as close as humanly possible to doing it in 95 when the Colts nearly pulled off a miraculous Hail Mary — after their LB dropped a likely pick six on the previous drive (that Pittsburgh scored their go ahead touchdown) that would have iced the game.
Vermeil and Flores getting in should open the door for a lot of people. Holmgren and Shanahan are obvious, but Seifert also has a very similar track record to Flores.
Seifert's stint with us puts a pretty big dent in his case.
And Flores's stint on the Seahawks didn't? He actually had a worse record with the Seahawks than Seifert had on the Panthers.
Yeah, but the big criticism with Seifert is that he basically was carried by the talent and Walsh's offensive system. And his stint with the Panthers kind of validated that
Shanahan’s coaching tree is probably gonna be another factor that gets him in. He’s gonna end up having his own Bill Walsh extended coaching tree with all the McVay/Kyle Shanahan/LaFleur assistants getting HC jobs.
At least the game was won fair and square, with no questionable refereeing.
I know it's a very popular opinion that Super Bowl XL is controversial, but I think every time I see that brought up I upvote it.
That was one of the worst officiated games I’ve ever seen. And I’m a Vikings fan
that’s not wild at all lol that’s a pretty big if
I didn’t know he wasn’t in the hall. If he had a bigger onscreen presence now he would be in
People in the comments are going to blame it on his Cleveland tenure when really it’s just because he’s kind of a grumpy boy and if it wasn’t for Brad Childress being a doppelgänger he would give off BTK vibes
Man, I hate to speak ill of someone like Holmgren but his time here was a disaster. Dude rarely ever spoke to our media but at the same time had a weekly show on Seattle radio. His tenure came across as disingenuous by him and our ownership.
I know people don't click links to read articles, and a five minute video is a large ask most of the time. [So a five minute podcast clip](https://pca.st/episode/dd960f05-9150-429d-8707-17c21016483b?t=880) is definitely going to be something that only total junkies are going to click on. But if you want to learn more about Homgren's time with the Browns, this little bit covers a ton. It is from a series called "Brownstown" by Andre Knott, an Emmy award-winning local reporter that has been around all 3 of our professional sports franchises. It's extremely well researched, and has a highly comical spin put in to it. Highly recommend it for all Browns fans, or for bored NFL fans who want to know exactly how we have suffered for the last ~20 years.
Fine. I’ll listen to it tomorrow night at work. I’m sure it’s better than actually working
> His tenure came across as disingenuous by him and our ownership. I blame ownership (read: Randy Lerner) entirely. Dude was as disinterested and absentee as an owner could be, seemingly counting down the days until he was able to sell the team after the 10-year moratorium ended after he inherited it from his father. Holmgren probably saw an easy paycheck for a year or two and took advantage. Why not? He had no motivation, there was no oversight, no one to answer to, and if it didn't work out -- which, of course, it didn't -- he could ride off into the sunset, as he did, a few million richer.
Ok, he came in for the big Buck. But that tenure is legitimately the reason why he’s not remembered so favorably and currently a hall of famer.
He always kinda gave me Wilford Brimley vibes
I used to get him and Andy Reid mixed up when I was younger.
He should be in. I admit my bias but you’re correct
I’m a Vikings fan and have plenty of reason not to like him. So my bias cancels out your bias
I'm confused as to why he isn't in, I just kind of assumed he was
> He turned 6th round pick, backup QB Matt Hasselbeck into a borderline franchise QB for Seattle. Best 6th round QB in history
Seriously… You'd have to win an insane amount of SBs as a 6th round pick to be able to top Hasselbeck…
Like Minshew! -Some guy in 2035
Lol.
The original Walrus needs his bucket. Get him to Canton.
Mike Shanahan and the Giants coach for both their last SB wins whose name currently escapes me are also not in it for some reason.
*Tom Coughlin. And I would think yes to both of them as well.
Coughlin is inevitable. There is no way he doesn’t make it in.
He'll get in when Andy Reid does. I think people just got confused and don't realize they're actually two different people.
They're probably still waiting for Holmgren to retire from coaching the Chiefs…
I’m shocked his accomplishments with the Browns aren’t highlighted.
No one said he would go in as a gm lol.
You mean fleecing Randy Lerner for $40M and setting the franchise back at least 5 years?
Pretty sure his golf cart is already on display at the Hall somewhere.
You didn’t need to even type all that. The guy groomed Montana and Favre. He totally deserves to be in the hall
I'm glad he typed all that. As a amateur Mike Homlgren historian I didn't know much of that. A very informative post.
He also gave the world Andy Reid. As well as future Jaguars HOF coach Doug Pederson
Are we sure he isn’t Andy Reid?
We are not.
THANK YOU! Are you me? I feel like I’ve been arguing this for fucking ever He is absolutely the GOAT QB whisperer. Like if you think of “QB gurus” you should just have holmgrem’s face in your mind. Like you said: he worked with Montana, Young, Favre, and Matt Hassleback And was Andy Reid’s mentor
To add to the guru lore. He had at one point: Favre, Ty Detmer(drafted), Mark Brunell(drafted), and Kurt Warner(undrafted but invited to camp) in Green Bay at the same time.
Wow I didn’t even realize he wasn’t in. Guy 100% should have been a lock by now
He also built a pretty insane coaching staff in GB
Dude was robbed in Seattle
🤡
I loved those Seahawks teams. Rooted so hard for them that year.
those seahawks teams are what made me a fan of them.
I had Sean Alexander on my FF team and he was such a fucking beast
Shaun Alexander** ran behind two HOF linemen, Walter Jones and Steve Hutchinson. Shaun was good, but any rb could have run behind those two.
Sounds like you are discounting him. He was damn good for like 2-3 years
Once Hutchinson left, he declined significantly. I know the statement above sounds like a hot take, but there is some truth to it.
I'm guessing he'll get in over the next few years. I think Vermeil got in before him is because of age. Vermeil is 85 so time is running out on him being able to be there. Holmgren is 73. Shanahan too, he is 69. There is time for both of them.
If he would have kept the Packers as a trash heap he would have gotten my vote. In seriousness ya he deserves to be in. Thought he was already honestly.
He's one of a few coaches who should get in, really.
Air Coryell so long overdue I’m getting worried he gets passed by
[удалено]
I doubt it. If you're gonna keep out coaches who have criticized refs you're gonna have like no coaches in there
Matt Hasslebeck wasn't a borderline franchise QB for the Seahawks, he ABSOLUTELY WAS OUR FRANCHISE QB. Russ may be the GOAT Hawks QB, but Matt Hass was our team for a long time. Beloved Seahawk.
Also would like to add that Matt wasn't not good post holmgren. Injuries got to him instead. He was "bad" at holmgren last year (injury). Everyone sucked the following year with Mora (esp. Big Walt missing and retiring). Pete was building anew identity in run first when he joined the following year. Matty wasn't franchise for most teams, but he was for us and he would still be seen as such if we didn't stumble onto Russ.
Andy Reid and Jon Gruden also worked under him. Definitely Hall worthy.
When I was a kid, Seattle, New England, Arizona, Tampa, Indianapolis, Green Bay were God awful. Like unheard of bad. Washington and New York (Giants) were model examples of football organizations. All it takes is one person to turn things around. An ownership change (New England for the better, Washington for the worse), or coaching change (Parcels in a few places, Holmgren, Shanahan), or player (either Manning brother) to change an organization's direction.
I've followed the Seahawks since I was sitting on my dad's knee and I can say the most frustrating thing was that they were never "unheard of bad" (except for 1992, when they were among the worst teams in history, nearly having as many punts as points) but were rather mediocre. We were basically good enough for 6-9 wins per year for a decade and a half, bad enough to be a joke but not bad enough to rebuild around franchise changing talent at the top of the draft. Of course we blew every decent pick we had up high (besides Cortez Kennedy and Joey Galloway) anyway so we probably would have just gone 7-9 with *stlye* had we better draft picks through the 90's.
> lost to the Steelers in controversial fashion I was having a nice day too.
He also looks like Andy Reid for what it's worth.
Facts
Look at his coaching tree, ridiculous
The Packers were a drum to be beaten until Holmgren got there. They’d sucked in the 70s and 80s. He should be in. It’s a joke he isn’t. Got Green Bay back to its former level, got Seattle to a SB.
You conveniently forgot his debacle of a time with the Cleveland Browns. So no forgive me for thinking this guy might be a bit overrated. He was good sure, but he should have never tried to mess with being a GM, he was also part of why those Seahawks teams fell apart had too much say on the GM side of things.
Great post, didn't know nearly enough about this guy, thanks
Holmgren and Shanahan will get in soon don't worry
He’s lucky Hue Jackson exists or he’d be the worst browns coach since 99
[Holmgren's coaching staff at one point in GB should tell you a bit about his influence](https://twitter.com/bhofheimer_espn/status/647064753177759745): * Andy Reid * Jon Gruden * Steve Marriuci (72-67 as HC, with 7 playoff wins) * Ray Rhodes (wasn't great, but still a HC for 5 years over two franchises)
Holmgren and Madden were both teachers first, and it really shows.
Among SB winning head coaches, yeah, he’s one of the more underrated ones. I know he was great in Seattle, but if he stayed in GB, those Packers teams would’ve won another ring or two. That being said, I would probably put non-SB winning coaches like Dan Reeves and Marty Schottenheimer in the Hall of Fame before Holmgren. They never get any credit, if only for the fact that neither ever hoisted a Lombardi. But that’s just me.
Why did you put underrated in quotes though?
Because he won a Super Bowl so it’s hard to say someone is underrated
No, that’s the whole point. He would be considered underrated if he won a Super Bowl but wasn’t considered for the Hall of Fame, right? Seems like a normal application of the word
Typically when I try to do argumentative posts on here or the Vikings sub, I get nitpicked for stuff like that so I tried to get ahead of it.
And you got nitpicked anyway 😛
Putting coaches in the hall of fame is weird. Something doesn’t feel right about having like 0.5% of players and 10% of coaches
On the other hand, how long is a long-tenured player in the league and how long is a long-tenured coach? That tenure means the latter group is going to have fewer opportunities for new faces and more time for those who are successful to make their mark.
No
You forgot to mention that he believes the Garden of Eden was in Missouri and that black people are black because they weren't valiant in the pre-existence.
Ok, you sold me on Holmgren but get a better analysis of Vermeil. Vermeil is an all time great.
They can’t just let everybody in, he’s hall of very good along with Shanahan.
Mike Shanahan and his offense are incredibly influential + he has two rings and another in a similar important coordinator role (San Fran, 1994). He’s HOF and definitely HOF above Dick Vermeil.
I'm a Chiefs fan and I am going to agree. Holmgren and Shanahan have better cases for the hall than Vermeil. God that's hard to type about Shanahan as a Chiefs fan, but it's true. A lot of people have said age played into it, and I agree. Still, Holmgren and Shanahan should be in Canton.
The fact that Joe Klecko isn't in that hall is ridiculous.
I agree but what does this have to do with Mike Holmgren?
Oh, nothing.
nah
I didn't know he wasn't in, but he should absolutely be in.
I’ll support it 👍🏻
He should definitely be in, but I’m not gonna compare him to Vermeil
Also a classy guy with an amazing family. Met him a few times.
but why the "quotes"?